Public Works Committee - Regular Meeting

Good morning. I'd like to call this public works committee meeting to order. I am chairwoman, alderman Mulele, a. We are joined to my right by vice chair, alderman Lamont Westmoreland to his right. We are joined by Alderman Bob Balmain to his right. We are joined by DPW infrastructure. To my left, we are joined by staff assistant Carmen Roman. To her left, we are joined by Alderman Alex Brower. To his left, we are joined by Alderman, Larissa Taylor. Item number one, file number two, five, one, eight, seven, nine.

Resolution relating to approving the levying of assessments and construction of accessible public improvement projects at various locations and appropriating funds for these purposes.

Good morning. Holly Rutenbeck with DPW. I will be advising on the special assessment process and project details. For those projects approved this morning, a bill will be sent to each property owner sometime after completion of the work. Within forty five days upon receipt of the bill, the full amount may be paid without interest.

If the bill is not paid within the forty five day grace period, a charge of 8.5% simple interest per year will be added. If the assessment is at least $125 the assessment can be paid over a period of ten years on the tax roll at 8.5% interest. For those projects approved with late billing, a bill will not be sent before 01/01/2028. An official notice of public hearing was sent to all impacted property owners in relation to the projects that are on this public hearing. The first item in the 2nd Aldermanic District, alley between West Phe Bronx Avenue, West Hope Avenue, North 62nd Street, North 63rd Street, concrete alley pavement reconstruction, replace some abutting sidewalk and driveway approaches, grading storm drainage facilities and permeable pavement as necessary.

Is there anyone here to provide testimony on this item? Out of 27 impacted properties, all responses were in favor and the Alderman supports the project.

Sorry. I'm sorry.

Replaced some abutting walk or driveway approaches, grading, storm drainage facilities and permeable pavement as necessary. Is anyone here to provide testimony on that item? And I'll leave this one to you, Alderman.

Were there any cards?

There were. I did not receive the results.

Okay. I support it. Alderman Westmoreland would move adoption. Are there any objections to the motion? Hearing none, so ordered.

In the 8th Aldermanic District, alley between West Greenfield Avenue, West Orchard Street, South 22nd Street, South 23rd Street, concrete alley pavement reconstruction replaced some abutting walk and driveway approaches, grading, storm drainage facilities and permeable pavement as necessary. And Patty's here from the alderwoman's office.

We only received one postcard back and it was opposed, but it was from a landlord who doesn't live on the block. And Joe Castro was concerned he might show up, so she asked me to come and say she's in full support.

Thank you. Alderman Brower would move adoption. Are there any objections to that motion? Hearing none, so ordered.

Madam Chair.

Alderman Brower?

Yeah, I don't have an objection. I'll just just some questions. Thought we've talked about some of these things at this committee, just to refresh my memory, property owners, adjacent property owners pay 50% of the cost. Is that correct?

That is correct. But they do not pay for any of the green infrastructure. We do receive a grant from the Milwaukee Metropolitan's Ridge District. So that does not impact their assessment cost.

No, that's and that's really good to hear. I guess it what I'm seeing on here, permeable pavement as necessary. So are these projects intended to have that? Are we trying to do that for everything going forward? Or what's the status of that, Holly?

Yes. So it is our intent that every alley repaving project would have the center four feet with permeable pavement. However, there are certain alleys and situations where it's not a suitable fit. But for each one where we have it listed in this official notice, it is proposed to have permeable pavement in the center four feet.

Okay. So there is no particular reason this says as necessary and not just says permeable pavement. Progress past.

Progress We

made

is concrete. So not the entire thing is permeable pavement, just portions of it.

Though that makes sense to me. And we wouldn't want the permeable portion in the center to come to a tee at that where these alleys intersect because then we could have vehicle traffic going over them that could potentially I mean, basically, it's a weight issue with the permeable pavement, right?

Yes. And we do compact all of the materials and aggregate under the permeable pavement. So cars can still drive over the of seeing of

driving over them regularly. So where there's a T improvements intersection in the alley, it would the permeable portion would not form a T itself. It would be a setback from that intersection then too.

That is correct.

Okay. Cool. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure

I was clear on all that. Thanks.

Actually, one more question, madam chair. The 50% cost, is that statutory? Is that an ordinance or do we know offhand where that originates from?

Yes. That is in the ordinance as a 50% recovery ratio.

Okay. Is there anything in the statutes regarding that? Could we charge a 100? Could we go less than 50?

It is entirely based off of the ordinance.

Okay. Thank you. I think the the statutes only limit our ability to profit from it. So we can't exceed what the cost is to us. Okay.

Thank you. I I just wanted to get some clarity. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Madam chair.

Go ahead.

And on that point, we we use the wheel tax to backfill what would normally be an accessible portion of street reconstruction. Correct?

That is correct. So on the roadway reconstructions between the curbs is non accessible. The adjacent property owners are only paying for a driveway and sidewalk.

And under our ordinance they would be accessible road is map.

We are going

to

the reconstruction and asphalt pavement resurfacing replaced curb and gutter and sidewalk and driveway approaches where necessary. Sodding six to 10 foot with tree border area green infrastructure bioswales and grading. Is anyone here that would like to provide testimony on this

item? Alderman Brown.

Although this is not my territory, am very familiar with this section of road. It is an extremely wide road from 35th to 37. Are we narrowing the roadway surface?

Yes. We will be narrowing West Michigan between 35th and 36 and also putting in bioswales.

Okay. Very good. Thank you. The

public.

Be to

District, the alley information between West Fond Du Lac Avenue, West Meineke Street, West Wright Street, North 22nd Street, North 23rd Street, concrete alley pavement reconstruction replaced some abutting walk and driveway approaches, grading, storm drainage facilities and permeable pavement as necessary. Is anyone here to provide testimony on this item? Out of 29 properties, all responses were in support and supports the project.

Alderman Mashwala will move adoption. Hearing no objection, so order. Alderman Brower will move approval of the file as amended. Hearing no objections, so order. Item number two, file number two five one eight eight zero. Resolution determining it necessary to make various nonaccessible public improvements at various locations and appropriating funds for these purposes with the city engineering cost estimated to be $47,000 for a total estimated cost of these projects being $651,000.

I have a proposed substitute on this agenda item. Okay.

Is it It's not printed. Is it in the file?

It is in the file. Yeah.

Okay. Is it a, substitute a?

Yes. It's a proposal. Proposed substitute a?

Mhmm. Can you tell

us the difference with the sub?

Yes. We had, let's see here, one additional project added in that we needed to set up additional engineering for.

Okay. Alderwoman Taylor will move to have substitute a before us. Hearing no objection, so ordered. Are there any questions from committee? Is there anything more you want to tell us before we vote?

Nope. This is just for setting up engineering on future nonaccessible projects for DPW.

Okay. Our auto man bombing with a move adoption of the file as substituted. Are there any objections? Hearing none, so order. Item number three, file number two five one eight eight one, resolution approving construction of public improvements at various locations and appropriating funds for these purposes with the city construction cost estimated to be 41,788,574 for a total estimated cost of these projects being 55,491,316.

We also have a substitute. Correct. Alderman Westwardland would move to have the substitute substitute before us. Are there any objections? Hearing none, so ordered. On the substitute, could you tell us what the difference is?

Yes. So we did have quite a few water water Milwaukee Waterworks projects projects on this. So we had a few technical corrections from the original upload and then we did have a few projects that were added in for setting up construction funding just so that we could get those contracts out for bid and get more competitive pricing this spring.

Any questions from committee? Hearing none, alderman Brower will move adoption of this of the file as substituted. Hearing no objection, self order. Item number four, file number 250987986, resolution approving a first amendment to the lease agreement with TowerCo twenty thirteen LLC for a portion of the parcel located at 3929 South 6th Street in the 13th Automatic District.

Good morning. Jordan Shettle from the city attorney's office. This is this file has been heard by this committee before but was asked to be held by Alderman Spiker to for him to ask some questions of waterworks but I believe those questions have been answered. Just for a refresher, this is an amendment to a land lease agreement with TowerCo twenty thirteen LLC at 3929 South 6th Street which is the Howard Ave water treatment plant. Tower Co manages the cell tower sites at the plant.

And this amendment would extend the lease out until 2060. It wouldn't change rents. There is still a 5% rent increase attached to to the rent. The current rent is $42,758.48. For next year, it'll be $44,896.41.

You said the 5% increase, is that annually?

Yes.

Any questions from committee? Alright. Hearing none, order woman Taylor would move adoption. Any objections to that motion? Hearing none, so ordered. Item number five, file number 251882.

Good morning, madam chair. Alders, James Washington, public works coordination manager. So, this file extending the Active Streets for Business program. Again, the program typically runs March 15 through November 15 and then there's a winter session that runs from November 14 to March 14 and this is just renewing it for the 2026 season.

Are there any questions from committee? Hey, madam chair. This is the parklet program?

This is actually the active streets program. It's just

Oh, nothing separate parklets.

Correct.

Is that a separate program that we're gonna transition over to licensing?

Correct. So the parklet program is already ordinance. It's already in chapter 115. Right. We are revamping the ordinance to bring in parklets and back to streets for business to have it run similarly to the dining sidewalk dining cafes. That will be run out of the licensing division. That way, it is actually a part of the applicant's license and there's a there's a dispute process and they can go to file for that.

Very good. Thank you. Move approval.

The motion by Alderman Palmer is adoption. Are there any objections to that motion? Hearing non sole order. Item number six.

Real quick. Really real quick. James. Yes. Since I have you in front of me, should the Bucks just lose the rest of the season out? Or I mean, we're we're 10 games behind the Hornets who hold the last playing spot. What do you think we should do?

Put out the white flag.

Yep. Get the draft pick. Thank you.

In agreement. That's the official DPW position. Thank you.

The the motion by the motion. Oh, already did it, him. Oh, item number six, file number 251884, resolution relating to the application, acceptance, and funding of private property inflow infiltration grant from MMSD for a project in an area bounded by North 53rd Street to North 60th Street and West Vienna Avenue to West Capitol Drive in the 7th Automatic District.

Yeah. Good morning. Robert Slane, Environmental Engineering Section. Yeah, this file is for construction funding for sanitary lateral replacements in the area described what we call Grassland Manor neighborhood.

Are there any questions from committee? Hearing none, alderman Brower will move adoption. Hearing no objection, so ordered. Item number seven. File number 251777 substitute resolution authorizing amendment to the water service agreement with the village of Menomonee Park.

Good morning. Patrick Pauley, waterworks superintendent. Would it be helpful if we displayed the map showing the new water service area? It would. I love maps.

It's not laptop holder. Is it already in our file?

It is in the file. I do have it on the jump drive as well.

I think because it's not set up for the jump drive. We we can all look on our file.

Okay. So Menominee Falls has been a wholesale customer of Water Works since 1997. Their original agreement was for ten years. A new agreement was signed in 2008. In 2008, the original water service area from 1997 was reused.

The 2008 agreement automatically renews every ten years. So they have been a customer of ours for nearly thirty years now. They approached us early last year about expanding the water service area primarily to match the MMSD service area. And so this is a, I would call it an adjustment, somewhat administrative. There are approximately four fifty properties being added to the water service area.

It won't result in a large volume of water. All of the properties have been developed. They are well over 90% residences, some commercial businesses on the Far North Side. And so the map that you see has the MMSD service area shown in shaded blue and then the original water service area, if I remember well, actually I have a map in front of me, is shown in the red solid line. The blue solid line is the new water service area.

So you can see the differences between it. The black and white dashed line is the subcontinental divide. So we had we have consulted the Public Service Commission and the DNR. Neither of them need any additional information from Milwaukee to approve expanding the water service area. So Menominee Falls Village Board approved this on February 2.

Any questions?

Mister chair? I'm on the bottom.

The area that's West of the Continental Divide, is that there any implications with the Great Lakes Compact?

It does not because Menomonee Falls is a straddling community similar to New Berlin and unlike Waukesha. So that was one of the questions that was asked to the DNR is is there any additional information you need? And since these areas were already approved to be within the MMMSD service area, it's okay for Water Works to provide water service to them.

How are those areas served now?

Some of them are already being served by Milwaukee Water. The rest of them are on either private wells or subdivision wells. I believe a number of them on the Far North Side are served by the village of Germantown.

Okay. And does this increase our revenue?

Marginally. About $40,000 in revenue, dollars 8,000 in cost for energy and chemicals. So 30 a little over $30,000 annually.

Very good. Thank you.

Hampshire.

Ottoman Brown.

It is no coincidence or it is a coincidence that this roughly follows the subcontinental divide then? I mean, that could you just elaborate more for anybody listening or my own notification? What's going on there with the map? I can see literally the area follows the subcontinental divide roughly.

Well, I think it is, it is more than a coincidence. Believe, gosh, I think I am a little out of my depth here. But I would say that this, it is the intent that water returns to the basin on the correct side of the Subcontinental divide. So the Subcontinental divide separates the Mississippi River Basin from the Lake Michigan Basin. So I believe that MMSD intends that water on the Lake Michigan primarily returns to the Lake Michigan Basin which means I don't know that the MMSD service area is going to extend too far west.

I think everyone understands that it's best that the water in the basin remain in the basin. Yes. So but due to the how the developments are conducted and where roads go and where facilities go, I think that's why you find that there are some areas that encroach outside. I can say you can see on the far Northwest corner there is an area shaded there that is in the MMSD service area but is not in this new water service area. Something that Menomonee Falls may return to Milwaukee to add that that area and another smaller area to the South.

Thank you. Any other questions from committee? Alright. Audit Woman Taylor would move adoption. Are there any objections to that motion?

Hearing none, so order. Thank you. Item number eight, file number 251861. Resolution directing the commissioner of public works to execute a document titled state municipal financial agreement for a state led highway project with the Wisconsin Department of Transportation for the installation of nonparticipating temporary street lighting on S T H 181 County Line Road to Mequon Road and to set up funds for construction at an estimated total cost of $80,500 with a 100% city share. Yeah.

Number eight. How did you write down? Oh, I'm sorry. Well, let's start that over. Number eight. File number 2518860. Resolution authorizing a commission on public works to execute a first revision to a state municipal agreement for transportation alternatives program project with those kinds of department of transportation for the Hopkins protected bike lane project for a revision to the project limits.

Morning. Mike Amsden, Transportation Planning Manager at DPW. This is an administrative change to the SMA just revising the limits from 34th Street on the Northwestern border to 30 time

time time have the we the time we Resolution directing a commission first first on public works executed document titled state municipal financial agreement for a state led highway project with the Wisconsin Department of Transportation Item for the installation of non participating temporary street lighting on STH 181 County Line Road to Mequon Road and to set up funds for construction at an estimated total cost of $80,500 with a 100% city share. Is there someone here to speak on it?

Not sure why he's here, but this is basically the city's portion just so we can keep street lighting on a state trunk highway. So usually, state of Wisconsin does not participate in having street lighting there as part of their agreement. So we just want to make sure the lights are in for our residents as they do construction on that particular roadway.

Any questions from committee?

Well, you haven't gotten any pushback from Mequon at all?

No.

No? Oh, well. Then I guess we're good.

Any other questions? Hearing none, Autumn Man Westmoreland will move adoption. Hearing objection, so order. Order. Item number 10, file number two 51875, resolution relating to approval of a intergovernmental cooperation agreement between the city of Milwaukee and Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewage District for the purposes of establishing the terms and conditions of the river skimmer operation from 2026 to 2035. And there is a substitute.

Good morning. Yes. Kurt Spirens, Department of Public Works, Environmental Engineering section. We do have a proposed substitute.

Copies of both.

Thank you.

Yes. So this file is a really a continuation of previous agreement between the city and MSD to partially fund the river skimmer operations along the Milwaukee River, Milwaukee, KK, and Menomonee Rivers in the harbor area. The substitute that's before you was a result of some changes made between legal staff between the city and MSD related to indemnification language. The substituted file does still contain contains the provision that each party is responsible for their own negligence, but it just removes the hold harmless clause.

Madam Chair.

Audrow Brown.

Could you just could you go over what exactly this is?

Sure. So thank you. So the River Skimmer, commonly known as Leonard skimmer is the boat that goes along the rivers. MSC owns and operates that boat. Essentially it picks up trash on the river.

So it has a internal mechanism conveyor belt that pulls trash out of the river that gets then dumped into a dumpster that we dispose of as part of this agreement. So they run that from essentially April to October five days a week. And then additionally during, let's say, festival season, they'll run on weekends as well. Generally speaking, looking at past data, they have pulled between eleven hundred and sixteen hundred cubic yards of material out every year out of the river.

Any other questions from committee?

Madam Chair.

Auditor Baum.

I see our share of this cost is $61,200?

Correct.

It doesn't sound like a lot. We not benefit by increasing our contribution so we increase the amount of cleanup that takes place?

I guess I could follow.

That thing running every day.

Mhmm.

Four hours a day easy.

Yeah. The district manages that with Veolia.

That amount of me or that level of service.

That is been that's consistent with the past level of service that has been going on for the last several years.

And then you wanna ask anybody if they thought the level of service was adequate. I mean, like constituents and abutting businesses and residents on the river?

Yeah, I can't speak to what MSD or Voli have done in terms of outreach on the frequency of the operations.

But it will operate approximately a hundred and ten days. Is that what the contract provides?

It's what it provides. The last several years have been in the neighborhood of a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty seven days.

So Wouldn't hours be more appropriate measure of service rather than making about for a day for an hour but that's not much work.

Fair enough and I do not know the hours.

Exactly staffers and MSD employees- V. O. L.

Has been staffing this yes.

And it's their soul so job responsibility or these are multi. Asking people.

Can I don't know that detailed information?

I think we need to hold this file to get some further because I. It seems to me. I mean, let's spend a $100,000 and get two thirds more service. Because this has been a source of significant complaint over the years. I mean, there are some areas where there is frequent debris collection that people seem to just not notice unless complaints are actually called in. Think there's I forget how many older man districts are affected by this. Certainly mine, certainly the sixth, certainly the third. Although they don't go north of the Old Dam, do

No they go humble done Milwaukee River Ember Lane on Menominee and Lincoln on KK.

We'll see Ember Lane just West Of Ember Lane is where there's a big. Debris pocket. So they they ignore that because it's West Of Amber Lane and not East.

I don't know if they can get past the Amber Lane Bridge without operating the bridge. Well,

they operate the bridge. Don't they is that bridge still movable?

It's good question

for the bridge people.

Yeah. Is this time sensitive in any way?

They are looking to get started in April, so it is somewhat time sensitive. I would imagine maybe on good faith they would consider starting.

We have have groups like the river keeper been looped into this process and ask what their opinion is on the adequacy of this skimming operation?

I have not heard anything from them that they have

any concern. I mean, I mean, may have not heard, but I don't think they know any of this is going on.

No, I agree. I know we have not done that kind of outreach or asked. It's certainly not anything that's been brought to our attention in terms of a lack of service.

And how about the the walk. Overlay District I think it's what's called Orderly District or or it's actually a be a it's actually a business improvement district right. They want to ask them what their views are the third ward association. I can guarantee you there's condos in the 3rd Ward, Hansen's Landing, for example, where they probably have very strong opinions on the sea of river skimming. Understood. Alright.

The motion by Alderman Baumann is to hold. Are there any objections to that motion?

Madam chair.

Alderman Baumann.

So if we we will they will not resume. They will not start operations until this is signed.

I would have to discuss that with them and see what their comfort level is with that.

We meet once a just about to ask that,

you know.

When is the next call to call?

Madam chair.

Andrea Fowler. Assistant city attorney Andrea Fowler. Just to provide a little context for how this agreement sits sort of in the scope of MMSD's other agreements. They have hired a third party operator to do that. That third party operator is funded as part of one of their larger operating agreements. And there is also a separate agreement that is very similar to this one that is making its way through approval at the Port Of Milwaukee. So I might suggest that if you would like to have a discussion with MMSD about increasing the scope of the work that you consider passing this file now and that we then avail ourselves of the opportunity to amend the agreements if the scope could be increased.

Who's going to take that initiative?

I believe that would be the department.

Because I think we're missing an opportunity here. I mean, $61,000 is nothing in the great scheme of of the city budget. I mean, that's that's chump change. If we can get double the service. For all the $120,000 I would think that's. A wise investment no.

Certainly because I'll reach out to the groups I mentioned and we can have. Right. For your office as well.

Draw the motion to hold.

I am sure.

Okay. Hold on one second. How long have we had this contract?

This is a renewal of a kind or not a renewal, but a revision to a contract that started in 'twenty one. I believe these operations go back as far as 1998 when the city owned the boat. But then back in, I think, the mid-ninety, I would have to look back at my notes, I believe at some point we transferred the boat to MSD. So the operations have been going on for twenty some years.

Have we ever done some of the evaluations or engagement that Artem and Baumann is suggesting?

I have not initiated any of those engagements. No.

How have we judged our desire to keep renewing it? Like, what are what are the measurements that you use? If it wasn't engagement, if it wasn't the stuff he's talking about, what was it?

So they do provide us data on the amount of debris that they remove. It is a on top of just simply removing the debris from a water quality perspective, it is also a beautification item. To all of our embodiment's point, the dollar amount seems reasonable for the service that we are getting. But there are no hard metrics that I could point to.

All right. You said you were through, So Yes.

Have a couple calls on the March 24.

Ottoman Raul will move approval with the expectation that some effort will be made to do some of the stuff that argument bomb has suggested and that information gained from that will be shared with the council. Are there any objections to the motion? Hearing none. So ordered.

Thank you. You.

Item number 11. 11 on file number 251854. Resolution relating to expenditure of funds to be reimbursed by greater than anticipated revenue for the purchase of low emissions vehicles. Is there anyone here to talk on this? Alright.

We'll hold this. Order woman Taylor will move to hold to the call of the chair. Item number 12, final two five one seven zero one. Resolution relating to the construction, maintenance, and funding of Stella's Playground, Milwaukee's first universally accessible and inclusive playground. This is sponsored by me.

There is a park sort of close to where if you were on North Avenue and you were trying to go to Humboldt East, the circular area that you would go to on the other side of it is the park. It kinda abuts Broward's district as well. A couple was it, like, a year ago? Mhmm. I was approached by Department Public Works and the group who was pushing for Estella's program with a wonderful idea of how to reimagine this park.

And I think members know we already have, you know, the MK plays, and we've already, as a city, been committed to redeveloping some of our local parks. But the angle and the desire to do Stella's Playground, I thought was needed and extremely unique for us to do. And having such passionate people behind the project, I thought, can only make it can make it better. So it's a whole team of folks who've been working diligently to help make this park a reality. We're joined by some of them today. I think we'll start, with the commissioner, I guess, just explaining, and then we'll turn it over to the Stuttler Black Round folks.

Well, thank you, Chairwoman. Gerald Crushy, Commissioner of Public Works. I think you've articulated pretty well. This is a great opportunity and a partnership with Stella's playground to provide basically Milwaukee's with their first adaptive playground in the region. So it's fantastic. This group and I'll let them explain more what this is all about and some of the history. But part of MKE Parks that is under the Department of Public Works, we're participating in this and helping with this. But they've been doing a fantastic job fundraising for this. So a lot of the dollars that come out of this is the efforts that they've done and the connections they've made. So I'm just happy to be here to support the playground itself and thank you guys for actually hearing it today. So I'll kind of hand it over to the group and explain a little more of what this actually is.

Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you, Chairwoman. Really appreciate your support. I'm Rishi Schneider. I'm Stella's mom, and this is Stella's dad, Bob Schneider, and this is our dear friend, Elizabeth Mueller, who we wouldn't be here without her support and help with this. Our daughter was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor in July 2023.

After her resection surgery, she was left unable to walk, talk, swallow, smile, do all the things that she used to be able to do. And she has slowly regained a lot of her abilities, but it's still a long road ahead, and we don't have any guarantees of what's going to happen with her. So in the 2024, we went to Reservoir Park. We live in River West, and Reservoir Park is a place we used to go to all the time. Stella was in had progressed to being able to be in a walker at the time.

And we were there with our son, Jake, and some cousins, and they ran off to the playground that's there now. And Stella, who, again, was in her walker, I kneeled down next to her and I said, Stella, I'll get you out of your walker and take you over to the playground. And she looked at me and she said, Mom, playgrounds aren't for me. And as a parent, we felt through this whole journey, I can't cure cancer. I can't make her walk again. I can't make her smile again. I can do I can advocate as best I can, but I can't fix this. But when she said playgrounds aren't for her, that's when I felt like this is something I can do. And mind you, have no Ben Gero knows this. I have no background in building playgrounds, but it seemed easier than carrying cancer.

So with the help of some very, very dear friends and the support of our family here, and again, thank you to you, Alder Woman Cogs, for opening your arms and your heart to this and seeing how this is going to be such a great thing, not just for our daughter Stella and her son Jake, but for the entire community. And so I'm really honored to be able to work on this project that

what's the city share of this cost and why are we putting any burden on these folks to raise money at all?

Great question.

It's not in public interest, I would think.

Yes. So this project is in excess of over $2,000,000 tied to this, which obviously the MKE Park budget does not allow. So I think what we're doing I can't remember the numbers. It's a few $100,000 to basically help with the updating of the bathroom facilities that are there and other things that we normally do. So we're putting in a portion we would normally do on a regular MKE Park and all the extra efforts tied to this. It really comes down to a money constraint from what we have. So what they've done is, like we do in our own MKE Parks, we reach out to funders to help fund redevelopment of parks. They're doing the same thing, but just at a much larger scale.

Is there a particular design parameter or design standards that are incorporated into these facilities?

I can let them explain, but yes. So what sort of the facilities adapt to people that don't have these sort of playsets, etcetera. But there's actually a whole group that has accessible type of play equipment and that's kind of what's going to be put here. So then people like Stella can go and say this park is for me. So yes, there are standards. I don't know if you guys have any clarification. I'm not a park builder either, sorry, a playground builder, but there are standards that nationally are set. And I think there's groups that they have vetted through to provide these kind of playground equipment.

Is there a contractor consultant who's on board that came up with these cost estimates? Yes.

Yes. So to answer the first question, with the city support, we've now raised over $1,100,000 So we feel really good headed towards our goal of $2,000,000 We are working with two different playground companies, Compan, which is an international playground company, one of the largest or if not the largest in the world and also working with a local group, GRG Playscapes. They do a lot of nature based play. And so bringing those two groups together to help really inform what this looks like because we don't we didn't know what that what this exactly looks like. And then we're also working with Ari Smith and Kailer Slater, our landscape architects who are providing a lot of really good input.

They're also working with the folks at the Ability Center. They're doing the big Moss Universal Park. So they're bringing their expertise from that experience to this playground. We also went through a pretty extensive community engagement effort here. So as we know this experience through our eyes and our family's experience and through Stella's experience, but I don't know what it's like for other families.

So we met with folks from Islands of Brilliance and Autism Group, Wisconsin Adaptive Sports Alliance, Independence First, Penfield, Vision Forward, Able and a few other groups to get some feedback from them because the end product will be inclusive, but we also want this entire process to be inclusive. Hopefully that answers your questions.

Sounds like an awful lot

of work by private parties to do what something obviously in the public interest. I'm just we're lucky to have you. It's amazing we don't have more of this already in existence.

Well, this type of playground. Yes.

First and pending of all those organizations I'm familiar with. Why why why why took you guys to take initiative and not them who are professionals at this?

It's an honor to

work do in it. Okay.

I do wanna say I I got the honor of meeting Stella as well. She's a remarkable young lady.

Thank you. Thank you.

Any other questions from committee?

Yes, Madam Chair. Armin Brown. Yes, thank you so much. This is great. I'm really glad to see this here. Just looking at I did I noticed the resolution does cite our comprehensive, what's the document here? Yes, comprehensive outdoor recreation plan. And just pulling that up, I just want to just confirm what I suspect here, which is that this is and it does say in the resolution, this is in line with it. But I just want to I just want to make sure when we're talking about this, I know we have, I think well, let me ask this. How many employees do we have in our MKE Parks division? One.

So there's a total of five. Well, not yet. How many are in the process of hiring? So three are maintenance workers. We have one, Joe Coltenberg, is the lead of MKE Parks, he's got one person underneath him.

Okay. So given that and given that the county operates most of the parks that are within the city's boundaries, we will have and I know there's going to be some sort of there must got to be some sort of management of this like the construction and all the stuff and like could be we are we fitting in with the capacity and with other pieces that we have in this comprehensive plan to keep on with what we've decided to do. I wasn't on the council when we adopted this, but this is a multiyear plan that I just want to I just want to confirm that this is not going to disrupt this and it will be in line with everything else that we're planning on doing through 2027.

Yes. So I mean, we will help project manage this project. Obviously, this is an MKE Park location. So we're going to be involved and we've been involved for a year over two years now already. So yes, it fully aligns with our plan to redo all 52 parks that the city has. So we do one to two a year and this is just a much larger scale, but yes, we'll be involved since or we already have been as the process moves forward. And we can provide updates as the development goes through, what the actual final park looks like, etcetera, and we can continue to update Public Works Committee as that moves forward.

Yes. No, I would really appreciate. I'm actually on the I'm on the park sites list here on this document and trying to find our trying to find the specific park here, not Snells Crossing. What the title of that park reservoir?

Reservoir.

Okay, cool. Yes. Okay. Actually, okay, it looks like it was last rehabbed. Reservoir Park was last rehabbed in 02/06. So that actually puts it on the older side, it looks like. There's some of them are eighty fourth and Florist is 20 last rehab was 1997. Darien and Killeen was in 1997. So there's a few of them that are over twenty years as far as rehab. But this actually, I'm seeing one that's 44 on Car Ferry Drive. I do not even know how to say that park name. That must be where the old Polish Fishing Village was.

And that was looks like

it was rehabbed in 1978 here. So I just want to note that, like I I mean, obviously, like there's some parks have more utility than others and we don't I mean, just because of the age doesn't mean we but I just want to make sure that this because it looks like it does kind of line up with maybe needing some updates anyway.

Yes. I'm glad you mentioned that. Like all the parks that we have, not all of them have playground equipment, not all of them have extensive things. So maintenance of some of these areas are different than others.

Yes. I'm literally looking at that one that I think is right by yes, that's the last update was in the 70s. I mean, I think that literally is just a patch of grass. Correct. It's down there. Yes. Khasubi Park. Kasubes? Yeah. Can I say

it again?

Kasubes. Kasubes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That okay. So just I just want I just want to note that. I'm I'm glad to hear that that that this lines up with this. I I intend to support this file. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any other questions from committee? I'm hearing none. Alderman Baumann would move adoption. Are there any objections to that motion? Hearing none, so ordered. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you. Item 13, file number two five one eight zero eight, an ordinance relating to the amendment of the official map of the city of Milwaukee.

Good morning. This is Desalem Pakela from Central Drafting and Records. This is updates to the city of Milwaukee's official map in the 2025 of mostly it has to do with Ali vacations.

Any questions from committee? So you said it mostly has to do with alley vacation, so it's taking Yeah. Doing what with the?

Pretty much alleys being vacated going from public right away into private. So alleys are being closed off.

So I just want some clarity to official map. So official map is the city's official map where right of way exists. So when there's any adjustment to the right of way, like we give up like an alley vacation or there's a dedication of public right of way, the map has to be adjusted. So once this group actually adjusts it, it goes to the front of council to make sure that it's just due process. So anytime there's an adjustment of any sort of right of way, this file comes up about once a year, sometimes twice a A year, yes. But it's just the adjustment in the official map that the city it shows what the city maintains from a right of way perspective.

Alright. Any questions from committee? Hearing none, Alderman Westmoreland will move passage. Hearing no objection, so order item number 14. Alright. File number 251809. Communication from Department of Public Works relating to Spring Relief Collection. This is sponsored by Alderman Westmoreland. Alderman Westmoreland, did you wanna say anything to start us off?

Oh, yeah. Thank you. It's no secret what happened with leaf collection and not here to point blame. I've never met mother nature, but that's the one that really put us in the position that we're in. I think snow fell on December 1, and I think is that right?

It was November 29.

November 29. Yep. And the deadline, the breakout deadline was December 1. Right?

No, it was extended from the typical November 15 to November 30. So, right up to the snowstorm.

So, with that said, DPW, I think it was last week has announced that there's going to be a spring collection in that breakout period was to start on March 1 and go through March 15. And I've asked people, don't break out past the fifteenth. Of course, not that, you know, not everybody's gonna follow that or even hear that. But I just want to have a discussion surrounding how we plan to approach the spring leaf collection and then heading into next season should, you know, this happen again. What will be changed?

You know, what what what changes have been made to operations. So I'll just start with the list question that I have. You know, obviously, people are starting to break out and there's a potential for snow on Sunday. Hopefully, they're wrong but my question is what's the plan? Because, you know, when I saw that time frame, my initial thought was, you know, why not have it the April instead of May or March?

Obviously, snow could fall anytime around here, so that's hard to predict, but I think the chances drop significantly in April. So I've already gotten the answer, but for everybody watching, if you can start by answering why we decided March '15 instead of April.

Yes, good morning. Joe Crushy, Commissioner of Hope Works. Great question, Alderman. So what we're trying to do in spring is something that we've never done before. So because we had the early snowfall related to leaf, so part of Mother Nature, which is I've never met her as well.

Leafs are dropping later in the season, what we've seen typically, and that's part of just climate change and snow had dropped earlier. I mean, typical years, we've had snow not coming until about Christmas, which gives this operation about another month to push and we continually extend those deadlines to sometimes December 15, sometimes December 21. So putting a new operation in and trying to squeezing this in before Clean and Green, which starts in April, so we'll kind kind of explain what will happen there, is to try to do something as quick as possible to get rid of the other 30% of the leaves roughly that we did not collect in fall. And so just to let folks know, we have been collecting leaves since December all the way through January when we have an opportunity to. So when there's large piles that come in and get requested from, we'll send a crew out there to try to pick up those larger piles.

But there's been a lot of residual that has been pushed up onto people's tariffs areas and that's what folks are seeing. So we decided to do a quick get it out in the street. It gives us a month. So why we're saying March 15 is to get it out in the roadway, that's when our operations are going to start pushing into larger piles and consolidating and getting those leaves out of the neighborhoods. So that's what we've spent out a month.

So when we say the fifteenth, we want it out by the fifteenth. But again, like we do in fall, if you see a large pile there, we haven't collected and you add it to it, that's not a big deal. As part of this, after the April 15, what we've done is we actually pushed Clean Green a week later than we normally have, just so we can give people an opportunity to also and this is going to be the new thing is you can have bag service basically at the same time. So we're doing that right now. But also during Cleaning Green, say someone wants to bag their leaves, put it at the end when we're coming around on their scheduled week, which is posted on our website, they'll be able to get rid of their leaves as well.

Besides additionally, taking it to the drop off center if they want to. I know the council has put together a file to purchase bags that we DPW are going to participate in trying to distribute across the city to help folks that maybe can't afford to get paper bags, etcetera. I think that's coming soon. I think April 15 is when those bags are going be available for the public. But tied into the question of there's no specific answer here, and I've got a few questions from council members as why don't we pick up these all year round?

And the answer is, I don't have enough equipment nor enough people to do that. Operations is a seasonally based department. And so when we go into winter, we focus on snow and ice because it's a public health and safety issue. In fall, we worry about leaves. What we're doing here is we're trying to clean up the debris that was left over from the winter season. Then we transition into picking up illegal dumping, street sweeping, all these other operations that are there. So I would love to pick up leaves twelve months out of the year, although it's not possible. As we start moving into summer, we get into tall grass and things like that. It's just we do not have the manpower nor the budget to pick up leaves all year round. In a perfect world, we would love leaves to drop in October.

We have the whole month of November to pick up leaves and snow comes in, it's a perfect world, but that's not the case anymore. I mean, as environmental changes have occurred, it's just where we're at. So we're trying to sandwich a new spring leaf cleanup because I mean, no one really complains about when the snow is there because they don't see them. And as snow has melted and we've had a couple of nice warm days, This is where I mean, constituents are calling your office and same with us. We're trying to find alternatives to get trying to make this happen.

In fall this coming up year, if it happens again, there's no particular answer because if trees if leaves are still on the trees, we can't access them. We're hoping that gives us enough time and they drop earlier, but it's not a perfect science by any means. So like I said, the quick spring cleanup of leaves to try to get rid of what's there from the larger piles. And then additionally, trying this, we're calling a pilot for bagged leaves. It's something we're trying to spring just to get rid as much as we can before the clean and green. I can have Rick explain a little more if you want more clarification on some of the operations, but it really kind comes on manpower and mother nature at the same time.

Right. So now the complaints that I'm starting to get is the leaf pile has been picked up. Now there's mud all over the street. Are we circling back or is that how do you address that? Are are you automatically coming back or are you waiting for a request to come back in relation to the mud? Does it is it depend on how much mud it is? How do you how do you address that?

Sure. And Rick Meyer, sanitation services manager. So the piece as a commissioner described kind of the sequence of events here. Also as we right now we're getting our street sweeping our mechanical brooms are getting prepped for the season. We already have some out there.

So we've started on a few of the on some of the boulevards and some of the dirtiest areas. But as we once we get past this, we think it will take about four months to cycle through the city to get for this final pass on the leaves. We'll start sweeping during that time too. But once we get through that, besides clinging green, we shift to our what we call our heavy sweep period where we have where we staff our largest number of rooms in the season to get through every street once coming out of winter as quickly as we can.

Can it can those sweepers get up that mud up?

That's going be a challenge in some cases because it will be mixed performance in that. Right.

Yes. So I'd say if you have really large mud piles, okay, then the Street Shipper go back and forth. Obviously, when we get rain that comes in spring, that helps rinse off salt and mud into the system, is just fine. I do want to make something very clear. Mean, we've had a couple of times where we've had some false winters already this spring, like Monday was a fantastic day, 72 degrees. So everyone thinks that we're moving into spring season, get the street sweepers out, these type of things. These machines really don't operate under 50 degrees. So we need consistent temperatures that way. I mean, we're going out there and it's 30 degrees, they use water to help clean, so they don't operate. So I do want to make that very clear because it's like when we do get those 70 degrees days like Rick had, we'll put a couple of sweepers out there.

We just can't move the full operation out there because they're not prepared. They're doing other things, really the sanitation collection or leave collection. So it's we're trying to balance both things. But yes, we're trying to get them as fast as possible. Otherwise, once we go through when the city gets done with Clean and Green as we go through April and May, we go into that summertime, this is where I mean, you can really see the difference. I mean, not only is it the leaves and residual stuff, it's all the granular stuff that sits on the side of in curb lanes. It's all part of that spring cleanup that we do. It's just this year is a little different because we're a little earlier. I mean, we just talked about it. There's potential snow this weekend. We are still in the winter equinox even though we've had some 70 degree weather, but it's just it's part of the operation switching around.

Right. And this is kinda tied to moving forward. You know, one thing that I thought I remember first getting elected. I'm like, wow. Yeah. You know, we should always extend this out. And I was thinking, why won't we permanently move it out? But after what happened this past December, I are we opening ourselves up that breakout period.

I would love that, but that's not reality. So when we extend normally, and this is it comes into when leaves drop. So years ago, this is why we put a November 15 data, because the majority of the would fall. So you'd have a small amount. It just seems as time has gone on, we would rather clean up as many leases we can if the weather doesn't transition. If we have a whole month of December to do that, we will keep on extending. Just like we did this last year, we could have cut it off at 15 and said, tough, that's not how we want to. We want to actually provide as much service to our citizens as possible before those folks transition into snow and ice. Once snow comes, that's where the whole different animal comes. So hypothetically, we didn't get snow until January.

We would continue to clean leaves until then. But once snow happens, then it becomes into this is a public health and safety issue where it comes to snow and ice is priority one. And so we're continually trying to just provide as much service as we can to folks. But I don't think it would be appealing to folks to say, November 15, it's all on you. I think we'd have more pushback than we do even now.

Okay. And then my final question is moving to next year. Like what's is there a different approach than we had this past fallwinter?

So we part of the part of this pilot, we'll call it the bagging pilot that we're doing this spring is something we want to see how it works for our staff and it's something we could potentially do in fall. So the first thing we always do is just to rake out into the curb, so we can actually push and consolidate and move out. It's the quickest operation for us to do. But we're trying to think of can we supplement this and do we have the workforce to basically do bag at the same time. So this becomes to people that don't want to push there or delay and they can do it on request.

We're trying to pilot that this spring. Additionally, we have reached out to third party vendors for leaf collection with some staggering costs tied to that. We had a couple of meetings and some of these folks are looking for $500 a location, which is not feasible for the city at all. So we're continuing to look at ideas. If anybody has like folks that want to give us more and shoot it our way, we're more than happy to. So but we're always looking for alternatives. I think the pilot after and maybe this is after the spring, we come back sometime like in June and just discuss how leaf collection went this spring to say, does the bags work, do they not? Because I think that could help folks. On a request, we're just got to see what it looks like from a staffing perspective.

Done. Yes. Okay.

I get the idea of the bagging for leaves that are on grassy surfaces or private property that may be once people get used to it, a preferred method of going, that's what Chicago does. They don't have a breakout. They don't have massive leaf collecting operations in the fall. Everybody bag their own leaves and they are specially picked up by city vehicles. But what about the leaves that are in the street now?

There are parts of the city with very high density parking where the leads were not touched in the fall at all because they were parked cars in the way. And I saw the sweepers sweepers out the other day and there was sweeping the center line of the street. Which

able

do do that. To answer I answer yes.

Is

think think think we the piloted answer this last year and a couple other times as you know putting up no parking. So what part of what you're saying is

that work magnificently well. Yes. Are we going to do that again this

I'll explain. So just before you go to that, so anytime we have an exception street, that means a street that can be parked on both sides, this is where this happens. I know it's in the 4th District, there's a lot in 3rd District. It's probably about 30% of the city where people are parking on both sides just based on density needs, which causes when the city was first set up, exception streets weren't there because then we can basically clean one side of the street, parking switches and we can maintain the other one. So I think we did it. It was in was it in your yes, we tried it in your district, I think, Oleren Baumann.

Last summer, and it

was the cleanest it's ever been.

And it's great. For two weeks. And so there's cost tied to that and a lot of effort. It doesn't mean we can't do it. I mean, I think what we're going to try to evaluate after the spring cleanup is, are there areas that need heavy clean and probably try to entertain doing no parking at one site just to get that first layer off the roadways because it is a challenge. But for us to kind of time when we're going to come through, it's tough. I mean we don't have a small community like our partners around us. I mean we have 96.2 square miles, we have 5,000 miles. It's a big undertaking, but we're not opposed to it. We just it's all based on the number of staff we have because it's that's the only way we're going to get to some of those because people even if they're going to work during the day, there's different shifts, they're never 100% open at one side or the other.

Exactly. So I mean, I don't know, I've given up. I figured in my immediate neighborhood on the Concordia area. Mhmm. The the leaves will never be picked up. Ever. Because there's constant parked cars in the way. So, there you have it. I mean, and of course, it's blocking the drains. And so there's a lot of ponding that results from that as well.

And I think we have some tangible data for what we did in Concordia last year, which we got

which then the I do residents were The native the homeowners were everybody was happy except the few cars well the cars I got told. But again I not not to use Chicago and personal experience. What they do works in a much bigger city with way more lane miles. There is no raking out to the curb. They rely on their street sweeping practices which do clear one side of the street for blocks at a time with no parking.

Although they don't tell, they just take it but people are educated have learned how that works so they do move. And then they come through and those streets are clean without the rake out and everybody rakes out using bags. In a city that's way bigger with way more lane miles so the challenges you cite, they are five times worse. So somehow it seems to get down there.

Again, don't know their budget or their staffing capacity either. But I mean, I would like to have information just like you're saying all about it.

Well, people have to realize it because the budget constraints, city streets, Milwaukee streets will be dirtier than other cities. Just the reality, is that what you're telling us? You just have to accept the reality that you just have to put up with these conditions?

Well, I think that comes in turn budget discussions of what can we fit under our budget. I mean, I do want to entertain if you do have areas that basically are compact like that to potentially just get that first layer off of probably leaves because I think it's a possibility. It doesn't take the whole entire city. I mean, some of the areas that are exception streets are cleaned, but there are some really high dense areas. So I mean, you do have those, just bring to our attention and maybe we can try to address those this spring during the next six weeks to twelve weeks.

Got the list already.

It's the

same list you had last year.

Yeah. I know Oliver Brower probably has some in his district as well.

Yes. Alright.

Madam chair.

Autumn and Brower.

Yeah, thank you. No and I I first of all just really appreciate that we're piloting some sort of bagging. I mean, I think that that excuse me, I think that is a solution. Every one of these things has pros and cons. I have shared with constituents that the easiest method on the East Side to alleviate the situation with the leaves is to go back to alternate alternate side parking.

That's not very popular. And I'm not that's not a policy proposal. I'm just like that that would be the most mechanically easiest thing to do would be to have alternate side parking. I don't know how we would do that in some of these air in some of the areas. I mean, would be you'd be parking six, seven, eight blocks from your house or if you I mean, if you don't have access to any sort of private parking whatsoever.

So that is next to unfeasible. Beyond that, I mean, I would just say that, like, I I'm really glad we're looking at this bagging because I would probably agree with Alderman Bowman that, you know, that's the next step of solution is to just is for people to not break it into the street. I guess, and we do have the same problem as well of, you know, people just I mean, the only spot that's open on a block is the spot where everybody's somebody's raked leaves into and then some person who maybe isn't expressing all the consideration for the neighborhood that should parks there out of convenience in that spot where the piles of leaves are. Literally, I've seen people park right on top of the I mean, I I mean, how does it not interfere with your car's mechanical system when you're parking on these piles of leaves? Right?

Like, you know, so I mean, that's a that's a decision that driver makes me. There's no I don't I don't think we ticket for anything like that. Right? Like, oh, there's a leaf pile. You shouldn't have parked there. We we don't even issue a citation for anything like that, and I'm not suggesting we should, but, you know, it's just like how we can get around this. And even there is where there is less parking, you know, I'm sure this also happens as well. I'd be curious from older some from other parts of the city, you know, how problem this is with people parking on the leaf piles and then they aren't I mean, we there's no way. But just me to just confirm with you that there's there's no way that for both of you two here, there's no way that we could collect the leaves that are underneath the vehicle like in currently now when you might call it like a leaf cake that's underneath the that's underneath the vehicle. There's no way that we could collect that under a parked car right now. Just

Yes. Not when a car is parked there. Usually what happens is if the car moves out of the way, then sometimes we'll end up bringing a skid loader just to basically scrape the pavement to kind of peel some of those areas off. Just to kind of tie into what you said, Alderman, is some other cities, all they do is do it based on request. And so and they just do a bagging operation. We've kind of found that out trying to reach around the country of what leaf operations are. So there's people in the East Coast, like if you want your leaf picked up, it's bagged and it's by request. That's all they do. Besides the normal operation, they'll take care of whatever is in the roadway, but everything else is on the homeowner, which

The normal sweeping operation, you Yes.

Normal sweeping, they will still push whatever comes into the roadway, but we're not telling those residents to take all their lease off of their roadways and push them into the middle, which is an interesting concept. I don't think in the past we were prepared for that. I mean, some of the technology we put in place now, like I mean, we've seen it during the flooding last year is the route where we can identify where things are, could potentially change the way we operate and get those requests so it's more feasible for us to loop through. And it's an option that basically says that we just go full bag and that it just comes into homeowners' requests. It's a possible appealing aspect. It takes the pressure off of putting it in there, but it also puts a lot of onus on the homeowner to do that. That as renters. Correct. Correct.

I mean, again, it adds another additional layer of responsibility and then the question that like yeah. Oh, yeah. You said that we won't do it. I mean, then the question comes into them. Do you know, enforcement and Yes. Somebody doesn't know that we changed our policy. And so now grandma gets a citation. You know, we don't want any we don't want any of that stuff either. So, know, this is this is quite a perplexing, you know, problem. I mean, I certainly I I think we all I I can appreciate the goal here from the department and from every year president is that we don't want that situation to exist currently.

I mean, we don't nobody wants, you know, the the the leaf cakes to exist in the on the streets currently. So no. I just it just you know, just some food for thought on all these things. I mean, I really wanna see us a more, you know, permanent solution to this. Are we do we have an ordinance requirement? Does anybody know off the top of their head if we have an ordinance requirement that requires raking?

It it doesn't require raking, but it allows raking. So, basically, if outside of the it it's within the litter ordinance that says people can't put stuff in the street. You can't put dirt, debris, yard where you can't do that. But there's a where it says except for basically under the commissioner's authority for the fall leaf program.

Okay.

Just specifically for leaves.

But let me present it a way. Somebody has a yard, the leaves fall on it. Is there anything in our ordinance that would compel them to actually rake off the grass? They could let the leaves decompose as would happen in a

do then, then, And in so other that

in that too. I mean, this is literally like, you know, when leaves the fall on the ground and they rest there, that's a habitat for insects to overwinter. We're, you know, there's media coverage that we're, you know, losing insects faster than any other type species that's out there. That's why this planet might not be inhabitable in the near future. Right?

Like, I mean, the other we're we're losing insect populations, pollinators. That is habitat for them. But America, for whatever reason, has a higher priority of this, like, chem lawn mowed mowed completely green, only one species allowed on a lawn kind of mentality that we have in this country too. And then now and then that drives this idea that, oh, well, a leaf on the I mean, like, I just want to enter that into this conversation too. We should really be, you know, really questioning why are we even considering this as a, like, a necessity.

I mean, you know, drinking water is a great necessity. Electricity is a great necessity. Internet, those things. And then we're treating the fact that we need to rake the leaves out into the that the that the lawns have to be clear so we can have this pristine, like, white picket fence, you know, chemically induced green landscape that kills everything and is destroying the planet. I mean, that I I I wanna push back on that too. So anyway, I'm I'm I'm finished with comments though.

No. Keep going. You're on a roll. That's Hey.

I well, you know, you know, I I love getting on a roll here.

I heard I heard conflict. I've heard those theories about the leaves are actually good to it's actually good to leave them be. Yeah.

I mean, I, you know, I I would just say that like that's that's something that should enter into into what we're what we're thinking here. How can we be more environmental? I mean, there are I mean, I haven't entered it in the file and maybe I should. Media articles about there's we're losing insects are rapidly declining. Those are the ones that are pollinating the plants that we eat. So it is really a problem. That's in addition to I bit

to

And

efficient. Then a

efficient.

Anyway. So, it really should be, you know, fully questioned, I think. But I just want to confirm that because we have gotten some emails to my office from people who are interested in protecting insect populations.

We got them too.

Yeah. And I just want to confirm because we can reply to them and let them know that there is no they've asked us to amend the ordinances to allow people to not rake. Oh. Because there are some groups are maybe under the impression that we are forcing people to rake their lawns and that just you've confirmed that that is not a requirement under ordinances. Nobody will be cited by DNS or in any way for not raking their lawn. No.

Okay. No, it's a valid point. I think this work comes into education of the public too. The more you can take care of and mulch and all these environmental impact type things instead of folks backyard, they're taking the trees that are personally their trees under their and they're taking those and then actually put it the city right of way instead of us just maintaining, which is the 190

Yes, thousand we we're private leaves.

We're taking private leaves. I mean, if they can if the public can continually just try to mulch, mean, that is the biggest way that reduces impact to the

Well, bagging option is a solution. Correct. Then you bag or not. If you don't, that's okay, you lead the lead where they are.

Madam chair.

I'm not.

Yeah. Just and so the question to kind of wrap up some of the the the tie to reality some of the theoretical stuff we're talking about. If they can go successfully this spring, when and and if we wanted to consider a major overhaul of leaf collection, what are the constraints or timelines around that that we need to consider?

We'd have to have something probably so our leaf operation starts in October. It's light because it's trees are still holding on to leaves. So to have something that we were talking, you have to do something in summer. So you give the public at least a couple of months to understand what policy changes, there'd be a lot of outreach. So if you kind of work backwards, that puts you in probably August, you'd have to have something finalized. If we're going to do some wholesale changes just so you can get the public to know this is what's going to happen. And there'd always be a transition. So if we decide to do a full overhaul, it wouldn't be perfect coming into But the fall just to put the context in there, we'd have to have something by August, probably before the recess, just to give time to educate the public on what's going to happen.

Okay. And we're hopeful oh, sorry.

Oh, no. I just had a quick question because all the discussion about leaving leaves where they are, if you don't rate them before the snowfall, then you end up with dead with dead grass. Is this Oh,

people like that?

So So you what?

Oh, people like that?

No. But but so so even if we don't require require leaves to be raked throughout the season, throughout the summer or fall, right before winter, if they're not raked, then when when the snow leaves and you end up with a mess because you had a bunch of mud. So yes, I don't want to give that impression that don't rake at all.

Well, when we say don't rake at all, I mean, you can do that or you can leave there. So we're talking about is like when you're doing your regular mullion grass, it kind of it basically mixes in there. So it gets the finer pieces, not big leaves just sitting there and killing grass. And if you do have a large amount of there, it's just using that around the edges like into planters and under trees, etcetera. That's what we're talking about. So there are folks that just don't want to do anything and that's up to them. But we're talking about more of a mulching and keeping that basically all the leaves that dropped on your private property in your private property.

Yes. And it won't harm

the grass over the winter because the grass goes dormant. So it's really just a matter of yes, if you hadn't mowed the leaves to break them up more in the fall and so they're still there in the winter or in the spring when the grass starts growing, you you want to make sure to mow because if they're covering their, you know, they're not getting the light from the sun to make their food and so

on to for

the But grass to over the winter, it doesn't harm it at all.

It's messier than the deal with them in spring.

Okay. Alright.

Are there any other questions?

If if I may, madam chair, I just want to highlight a couple components for the public. So so with this opportunity, again, coming back to like, okay, right now, what what's available for residents just to remind that people may rake leaves, they don't have to they may rake their leaves to the street during this period through this coming Sunday. We start messaging that out a week or so ago and had some good media coverage on it and we've seen the pile, we've seen that that's happening, but still looking to help get the word out more and we're Tiffany is going to do another push to the press here going into the weekend. So people are allowed. They may rake the leaves back out through this Sunday.

Also may use the paper compostable lawn leaf bags. That's something I want to make sure I stress because part of this pilot is and we are leery about allowing bags is that if people are just using black plastic bags, this is not going to work. And so really focusing on the lawn bags that you can buy at local grocery hardware stores like $0.80 a piece. If someone wants to bag them or they're in an area where they think that parking and whatever that's more reliable if I make that effort to bag and put a pickup request. For that, for what's raked in the street, doesn't require just like in the fall, it doesn't require a request for someone to say, okay, I raked, I'm going to call the city because it's operating just like our final round in the fall where we're going to go through every route.

It's really one puts out the bags, ask for them to call because we may handle that a little differently. Yes. So we'll try to get them all regardless, but we do ask that if you are using paper leaf bags that you also put in a request online or through the city. What else am I missing? So that's the main thing.

Once we start the final round, again, have to have a deadline because we can't we have to start somewhere and somebody is going to get cleaned up Monday, well, depending on the snow. But when we start, someone's going to get cleaned up first and we're going to progress through all routes and so we have to have that deadline so people aren't raking past it. So the Sunday would be that deadline and the public can go to the website to track on a regular milwaukee.gov/leaves. There's all this information that we're talking about as well as a map that will show progress where we are, show our our leaf routes. You can enter your address to orient yourself and it will show the status of of routes about what what we have coming up next, what's in progress, what's completed.

Okay.

So those bags are gonna go just on the curb or Yes.

We'd ask them to go on the curb line, not in the street.

Okay.

Madam

Chair? Alderman Brown.

Alderman Mr. Marlin, thank you so much for bringing this file forward. And to the commissioner and Rick, thank you so much.

Any other questions from committee? Hearing none. Order member this morning, I will move to place this on file. And we have one more item. Before we take it up, I just want a five minute break.

Thank you.

Meeting back to order. We have item 15. File number 251664. Motion relating to

information

on on Public passenger vehicle driver's license application come before The Us. Please raise your right hand so you can be sworn in.

Do you solemnly affirm under the penalties and sanctions of the perjury of the state of Wisconsin that the testimony you're about to give is the truth and only the truth?

Yes. Yes. Thank you. Are you in receipt of notice of today's meeting with a possibility that your application may be denied?

Denied?

Are you in receipt of notice of today's meeting with the possibility that your application may be denied. Yes. Jim, are there any holds?

No, madam chair.

Sergeant Velasquez, is the year of police report?

Officer Felix.

I mean, I'm sorry. No. It's alright. Felix. The

applicant is a convicted sex offender.

Thank you. Members may recall that we did hear this application a couple cycles ago. It was sent back to committee. Part of the reason that it was asked to sit sent back to committee is given the severity of the conviction that this applicant had and given how the meeting went in the sense of it did not feel like we had a lot of information. And taxicab drivers have a lot of power, power to lock doors, power to control direction, power to really have influence over whoever their passenger seems to be.

So I think it's incumbent upon us to get as much information as possible so that we can be as confident as possible in the licenses that we give that those who choose to ride in the cabs of the drivers that we license at least have the opportunity to be as safe as possible. And in looking back at that meeting, the information was so fragmented, and it was not clear about so many things. I just wanted us to be as clear as possible before we made permanent decisions. The other the other thing too that I also wanted all of us to be aware of is that the issue of sexual assault in general is often underreported. So even the numbers that we get oftentimes that we see, that we use statistically are far lower than what the real numbers may be.

And in the realm of taxicabs and Ubers and Lyfts, there is research that shows between 2017 and 2019, Lyft disclosed 4,158 reports of sexual assault, while Uber reported nearly 6,000 incidents in 2017 and 2018. Though, of course, they argue about that. And the US government accountability office has also put out similar statistics with those similar numbers for for companies like this. And private taxicab companies are generally less likely to do public reporting of the amount of sexual assaults that are reported to them. I say that because just to set the stage for how serious it is in relationship to the responsibility that this license is to all those that we consider before us.

I do believe there is a direct nexus and a point of concern for us with any allegations and or convictions in this field and our determination of whether or not any individual person is warranted for this type of license. So with that said, I think it's important that we get more information from mister Sarfraz himself about his particular situation and about him before we make any determination. And was before we get into asking mister Surprise questions, was there anything you wanted to guide us on for the city of town?

Just that there are considerations considerations with regard to licensure. This body as a licensing agency or it would be understood as a licensing agency within the law. There are considerations regarding employment discrimination. So there may be a mis misconstruction that this is just licensing, but licensing is seen in the law as subject to Wisconsin's Fair Employment Act. So there are several considerations that go into this.

That said, building substantial relationship between the charge conviction or other criminality and the actual license that sought is something, again, it's kind of a first step there. And again, there are charges that themselves are exempt from allegations of employment discrimination. So if someone is working specifically in the alcohol industry, there are drug charges that are exempted from consideration for employment discrimination. If someone is working with children, there are child safety charges that are exempted from consideration or exempted from the attack against the determination of employment discrimination. So there are again, there are places where a determination based on a conviction does not trigger an allegation or a substantiated claim of employment discrimination.

One of those that's a pretty consistent one and I think would be material here is violence against children. So that is an exception to an employment discrimination claim as against licensing or, again, within Wisconsin's fair employment because, again, the substantial relationship between the licensure and the charge itself.

Any questions for the city attorney? Alright. Mister Surfras, the officer Felix shared what is on your police record. Did you wanna speak to that?

Yeah. Court not give me fair trial. You know? I have my own attorney. He he coming against me. I file

I'm sorry, mister Surprise. I think I skipped a step. You're supposed to state your name and address for the record if

you could, please. Okay. My name is Mohammad Sarfraj. I'm living in 2258 South 22nd Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53221.

Thank you. Go ahead. Yeah.

Court that's why the decision, you know, coming the court not give me fair trial trial, you know. I have a own attorney. I'm not have public defender. He he coming against me. I filed two motion that time. Otherwise, the court accept me my motion. The result coming different, you know. The I hired my attorney. He forced me to plead guilty. You know? Why are and I have asking police report, know, medical report, you know. He not provide me. I he asked I pay him money to, you know, that time he he listen listen what's

what's

district attorney, you know. He he against me. I filed motion two times. Judge deny me. Someone give me attorney to Chicago, to Phil Turner. I I I wanna hire him. You know? He give me guarantee. He charging me $100,000 for case. So he said, I've been the case, but judge a two judge is denying me. You know? You you have record, then I'm going to appeal court. I win that. The then the building backs, you know, attorney general, are building. You know, he give me them the the lusto. You know? I'm going to appeal court. You have record. I win there, you know, case. My wife alone, I have three children.

She she filed a little bit. If I have more money, then I'm to maybe more. I blow I lost all money, then I lost the case on Supreme Court.

Any questions from committee?

I I have three daughter. I have wife. I'm a lone person working. I'm asking you, please, you know, I'm backing you, you know. We we I'm only person working, You know?

Is it so is it your I I hear you talk about the you know, how you didn't feel properly represented, but you did get did you plead guilty or you got convicted? No. Convicted. So so you are convicted of second degree sexual assault. Yes. Was it was it with use of a weapon?

Yes. Yeah. Alright.

So how long did you spend in jail?

Ten in, five out. I'm I'm I'm free. No. No. Nothing any charges. No any you know?

Did you receive any treatment?

Oh, yes. Yeah. A lot of, you know. Yeah.

Did you learn anything from the treatment?

Yes. Of course. You know, I'm learn lot of learn. I I damaged a lot. You see the, you know, I'm not young no more. You know, I everything. You know?

I

have three daughter going to market university. You know? I'm only person, you know, take care of my family. I wanna work. I work hard. You I work used to be taxi. You you know? I was ten year of work driving, you you know, know, used used to to be. Be.

Any other questions from committee?

So there are no other convictions outside of this one?

No. No. No any anything yet.

And you were released in 2020?

Yes.

Is it a reason you didn't try to get this license earlier?

Yes. The I think so. Yeah. I filed I filed another job, you know, but my record, you know, they all they everybody deny me, you know. Mhmm. If how I work, you know, if any anyone deny me, how that mean I cannot work anywhere? I I'm a human being, you know. It's it's happened. It's happened. You know? But

You say it's happened. It's happened. What do you mean?

I don't know. It's it's it's accident. I I call accident.

So you're saying your second degree sexual assault with a weapon was an accident?

That I I tell you is if a it's a long story. You know? If I I I don't wanna go back.

Any other questions from committee?

I guess, madam Tyva, alderwoman Yeah. I'm sorry. Chairwoman asked if you had learned anything after going through treatment, and I wasn't very clear on because you you can't describe this as an accident because it's it's a choice. It it's a conscious choice made. And and what have you learned to say, hey. This is not something that I would do again. Yes. Of course. Yeah.

I'm I'm not doing yeah. Never happened. You know? I'm not no more kids. You know? I'm three daughter father. You know? I have three daughter.

So you're saying because you have three daughters that that is, something that will keep you from harming someone else?

Yes. Yes.

Did you have three daughters at the time of the commission of this second degree sexual assault?

Yes. Their time is one year, three year, and five year.

Thank you. Oh, ma'am, tell me you still have the floor.

That that that's all I have.

Any other questions from committee? Are there any neighbors present that wish to testify? Let the record reflect that there are no neighbors present to testify. We are in committee. Is there any discussion?

Madam Chair?

Auderman Brown.

Yeah. This is obviously a, you know, complexing situation. We have I mean, appears what's going through my mind. I'd I'd appreciate what other alders are thinking, but what's going through my mind is here in front of us. We have an individual who was found guilty of a pretty serious offense, a very serious offense, and went to prison and is currently on the sex offender registry.

And what capacity do we and here we hold something that we could grant to this individual or not. What capacity do we believe and in what context do we believe that people can change and not commit things they've done in the past? That's what's on my mind. That's the question that's on my mind. I mean, I would say that it is possible with determination for people to change their behaviors and attitudes that would then precipitate, you know, positive actions and not ones like what was committed.

So I'm I'm in, you know, more inclined than not to grant this, but I'd I'd appreciate the the thought process of other alders. I mean, I, like, I do see from this applicant a level of remorse that could indicate that that something like this is not going to be happening again. But I I would be curious about the thoughts of other alders here. I'm not my mind is not totally made up.

Madam Chair. Alderman City Attorney,

the offense was

when did that move the year? 2010.

Twenty twenty twenty ten was when registration began. Sixteen years ago? Yeah. Looks like.

The incident?

Yes. That was the filing date of the court case.

Okay. And he received ten years of incarceration and extended supervision as well?

I think it was five years out.

Yeah. And so all that's concerned?

Yes. Without incident, as far as we know? As far as we know, you're correct.

I I would join Alderman Brower in approving this.

City of town, I would ask you this. Can you read to us the statute of what defines second degree sexual assault?

So second yeah, I can grab that in a second here. So it'll take me a second. Again, degrees are matters of interpretation, either by the charging official or sometimes by the court. Let me get that up for you, though. And as to, the age of the victim, there's no indication that there was a charge for violence against a child.

So you can disregard some of those previous statements as to that. But again, the materiality and the substantial relationship between this license and the assault is definitely built in, I think, to the determination. So second degree sexual assault, as described in the statute, has had sexual contact with or sexual intercourse with another person without consent of that person by use of threat, force, or violence. And then we have a modifier which is use of a dangerous weapon. So that, again, attaches a further penalty. So you have force or threat or violence, and then you have the actual use of the dangerous weapon.

And the weapon was a firearm?

If that's what you're reading, I I okay.

Was the weapon a firearm?

Actually, I deny that one. I I'm not used. She hit me. She the her own knife. The kitchen knife, she hit me. She injured me. I'm I'm laid down. I'll face my bleeding, you know. I'm living with me for sick three months, my own house, you know. She leaving me. That time, no happen. She just family matter that fighting you. She, you know So

it was a knife?

Yes. Kitchen knife. Yes.

Thank you. Yeah. Madam chair. Ottoman, this morning.

This question is for the city attorney. Being on that registry, that restricts you from having a job involving children. Correct?

The

It's not necessarily a direct bar against all interaction with children. And again, because this charge doesn't involve children necessarily, there's not that kind of nexus or that clean nexus. There are individual and specific licenses that say there's a felony disqualification period on engagement with. So I think there are daycare workers and there's some other DSPS, that's state licensure, if sought, would be denied out out of hand or immediately because of any felony conviction. So what his restrictions?

Yes. What are his restrictions based on There's

a DSPS list as far as the licenses that they issue. I think it's daycare, teacher, nanny. There are some other involvements that are just direct bars on any felony conviction. Again, it has nothing to do with the the charge at nine forty point two whatever the sexual

the second degree sexual assault is. So he's restricted from transporting nannies and daycare workers? That's what you're saying?

No. Nannies and he he they're I would assume, again, DSPS would disallow him from getting licensed to be a nanny or a daycare worker. So those

are licensed professions by the state. But there are no restrictions as to who he can give a ride to as a

Right. That would be because we're issuing the license. We're issuing that hack license. There would be really no way in which we could prevent who enters his cap.

Right. I I was just curious being on that registry if there were any restrictions.

That's all.

And so that would be a question to the DOC, his his proximity. I I don't see any bar on that. But again, that's that's between him and the Department of Corrections and we have little or no indication from the Department of Corrections as to further limitations from him from engaging because, again, there's no indication of a child sexual assault here. There's no bar on, or at least we don't know of, a bar on his being close to or near shoulder.

Should we know prior to approving or not approving?

That's a we've made a discretionary choice in the council by kind of barring or limiting our scope of review for able to going that. And registry on the sexual offender list, that kind of trumps be our look back period. So again, that was a discretionary choice. And generally, these things like sexual assaults kind of, again, remain important and remain in consideration by the committee permanently. Got it. Thank you.

Jim, how was DLC consulted or no because of the reasons

DLC was not consulted because he was off probation at the time that the background check was initiated.

Madam chair.

I I don't want to talk.

So, you're saying that our look back period is ten years. So, we don't know prior to ten years and that's only because he's on the registry. But prior to ten years, we don't know what his record is.

Correct. Yep. Yep. And that's that's with all licensees or applicants rather.

We don't know if any other incidents occurred prior to ten years.

That's correct.

Okay.

Ask him. He's under oath.

Was there any other incidents that occurred prior to ten years ago? No. This is the only incident ever?

Never have never. Yeah.

Madam Chair?

Present. Thank you. There may be a corollary here and I think it's still subject to Attorney Gresham's interpretation of employment discrimination law. But the corollary is that the state of Wisconsin does license network transportation vehicles, which are typically app based. And their statutes do have some prohibitions against licensing drivers that are on the sex offense registry. It's contained in chapter four forty eight four forty five of the statutes.

So can I ask another question, madam chair? Go ahead. Okay. So you're saying those things because I was gonna ask whether or not there was some tracking. So you have those rideshare programs that have tracking devices so you can track where the person is.

But if he's in a cab, is there any kind of tracking device? There's no it's not like Uber or anything, so there's no one who knows where you are. Are you connected with some company that you check-in with and they know where you are, what rides you've done, or is it just your cab? Are you Are you accountable to anyone as an employee with your cab that someone knows where you are? Are you checking in and out with some company, or is it just your cab that you just decide to drive when you want to?

I don't know. We used to be the habit wise, you know. They know where I'm, you know, a fifteen year, I'm not, you know, dry I don't know what what what you know.

You just drive.

Yeah. Just drive.

You know?

You just drive.

That used to be I'm driving American United there but I don't know. They still have the I don't I don't think so they have company now but that time they have device, you know, they watch me where I'm going, where not, you know. Yes.

Okay. So you will be employed with a company that have cabs, and they will know where you are? Yes. Yeah. And you're saying, Jim, that those app, those rideshare programs will restrict employment, employing someone that has a felony conviction

So rideshare such as companies are licensed by the state. The state has some licensing qualifications spelled out in the statute. And one of them and again deferring to Attorney Gresham on employment discrimination, but one of those is a prohibition against being on a sex offender registry under 301.45 or the National Sex Offender Public Website.

Okay.

Are you saying he could not drive Uber or Lyft. Uber or Lyft,

but he can

drive a taxi?

Under the state law, the Uber and Lyft have been facing mounting criticism because of their allowance of others. So the network company itself theoretically should be barring those individuals. But whether or not they're actually doing that, whether or not they're actually doing the background checks is another issue. There was recent court case in New York where they faced some substantial liability.

Well, that was a debate we had here when we were discussing licensing rideshare and the state took it away.

Yep.

We had a very good regulatory scheme in place which would have required these kinds of background checks conducted by MPS plus our vehicle inspections plus mandatory insurance requirements which the state which they didn't like and so they lobbied the state and the state took it over. And now you have the wild west out there with Uber and Lyft.

Any other questions from committee?

Yes. So I I just wanted to be clear. So if you were released in 2020 and you've been on probation for the last did you say five years?

It was

five years.

So there's been oversight. So for us to grant a license, now there's no oversight. There is no real accountability as you would get with a rideshare program. I mean, I would like to say that, yeah, I think people can get better, and and it may be so, but there is no oversight right now. So I would still have concern about this type of employment.

Not I mean, not saying you can't get any other employment, but this type of employment because people are vulnerable once they get into your vehicle. So I I would still have concern.

Any other comments or

schedule those guys.

From anybody? Alright. I'm a pass the gavel.

Right.

I do understand that, you know, trying to find stable employment is a challenge for many folks, particularly those who have been incarcerated. I also under understand our process, which we generally look back to ten years. In his case, though, mister Surprise spent ten years in jail. So whether he was reformed or not, there, of course, is not gonna be anything on there for the ten years. And then as auditorium just pointed out, the five years was with supervision.

So now it's a question of whether we, you know, believe that it's a opportunity to you know, for people to change and grow and whatever. Part of the reason I asked some of the questions I asked was to be able to assess that. Right? And what I've learned through my own study of, you know, sexual assault perpetrators. And just human nature is, first, there has to be an acceptance and acknowledgment of what you've done.

Since mister Surprise has sat here. Yes. Yes. He has given us a lot of excuses for what has occurred and and and even said that he caused accident. Second degree sexual assault with a weapon is not an accident.

Then and when asked, when you wanna think about those redemptive qualities of folks and how people grow and change. When asked about counseling and, you know, all of that and the pure opportunity pure opportunity to speak to all the redemptive things that have occurred with him in his life since this has happened and since he has had treatment. And that did not occur, though. I didn't hear anything redemptive here today. So then it's about, for me, whether I have confidence that in us in this city giving this license to this applicant, will residents of the city of Milwaukee and those who take his cab from this point forward not have to worry about the potential even of such a crime being committed on them.

I don't know if I had that confidence. There was nothing said here today that gives me that confidence. And what I refuse to have is the guilt for if we get it wrong and someone does get hurt. So for me, I wanted to, of course, give miss Surprise mister Surprise the the opportunity to come and, you know, share with us that which we did not know and any additional information he could to help make it clear to us that he's redeemed and this isn't likely to happen again. And I just have to say, for me, that did not happen here today.

In fact, I probably got more questions. So with that and given the to to meet the seriousness of his conviction and the nexus between being a cab driver and being able to lock those doors, divert divert the route, and pick up people who are intoxicated or have other issues. It just is not a recipe, I think, that we as a city should be adding to. So I would move denial.

Madam chair.

Orderwoman Taylor.

I do wanna point out too that and and I think I definitely have a responsibility to do that, that when we think of, survivors, because that's what we call them, survivors, survivors don't forget. This is something that, that they have to live with for the rest of their life. And sometimes, it may be something that would hinder them from being able to move past that it really inhibits them from growth. Some may have a support system that they could, but really very difficult to endure. And and I think that that we need to really just stay focused on the the survivor and what happens after an incident like that occurs, that it's very difficult for them sometimes.

And and so we don't wanna forget that. It's it's a lifetime sentence that they have to live with. So I just wanted to make sure that I pointed that out because we just can't forget the survivors.

Anybody else? The motion by alderwoman Cox is denial. Do we have any objections to that?

I do.

One objection. Any other objections? Do we need to do a roll call since there's an objection? No. I'm done. Okay. The motion passes for one. And with no further business, we're adjourned.