City Council - workshop

It's rebooting for the live stream.

Oh.

Not the whole thing, just we're probably being recorded right now.

So nobody can hear me. Oh, are we ready? Okay. Just want to let everyone know that's trying to watch via live stream. On Saturday, City Hall got hit by lightning and it knocked out all of our capabilities as far as video streaming. So we were working on getting that we're geared and we're doing our best kind of piece kneeling things together. So please bear with us for this meeting.

Okay.

And then the other thing the clerk is just reminding, please everyone speak into your minds so that it'll get picked up by the laptop. All right. Now we are going into approval for the June 18th work session minutes. May I have approval please for motion case? Second. Thank you. Is there any discussion? There is, Mayor. Yes.

The minutes reflected a discussion took place. I may not have this answer until later, but it occurs to me that I did object to going into that closed-door session, and I think the minutes should be done. Okay.

Okay. So you're adding a motion that you objected to going into closed session. Yes.

Okay. Or raised questions about the closed session.

Probably you voted no.

I did not vote no. It says yes. Yeah, it says yes, so I'm not going to debate that. But I did raise questions about whether or not all of the topics that we discussed in closed session should be in closed session.

So you made a motion to include the question, the reason for going into closed sessions with the military. All right. Any discussion on need a second on that. Oh, second on motion. Second. Okay. Any discussion on the motion?

We have an audio vote. Go back to check to confirm.

We didn't do audio since we were doing fully closed that day. But I do recall Councilmember Lavender did raise concerns. I do recall that.

So that's why I'm comfortable.

Any other comments?

Just can you repeat the motion?

The motion?

You know what you want me to?

I'll have you repeat it. So it's your motion.

It can be in addition to a discussion took place that Council Member Lavender raised questions regarding all of the topics that we have in closed door circles.

Okay. Any more questions concerned? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. And the motion carries. Back to the motion of passing the minutes.

As amended. As amended.

Are there any other questions, comments, or concerns? All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. And the minutes carries. The next topic is what plain form is revisions. We got a memo about this, and I told you that I do not know what a pre-board is, so somebody needs to explain the increased pre-board requirement.

When you have a pre-introduction, well, first of all, good evening, Marion City Council. Chris Krueger, Public Services Director. Tonight, we'll discuss and review possible changes. And so, first off, I want to say that Rick attended a management course through SEMA, which is a state emergency management agency. So he's had training in this. I've been to that training, but my training is about 10 years ago. So I've been through the training, but I've been through the training. I definitely know from my past experience the terms in this memo. So first off, as Mayor said, there are some very quite technical terms in here. And so I can address a few of those. And if there are some that we gloss over, that may not be too technical to us. It might be technical to other people. So feel free to speak up if we're saying something that you don't understand. So first off, a floodplain. A floodplain is a designated area. There's actually two types of floodplains. It's a 100-year or a 1% chance that that area can flood. There's also a 500-year floodplain. And then you have what's called a floodway. A floodway is all within the floodplain, and that's a defined area inside of the floodplain. And these are certain zones that are shown on maps that are provided by FEMA and CEMA. And so they have to deal with regulations with what can be built. and a floodplain and a floodway. Kirkwood is comprised of around 10.6% flood length. So a very small amount of Kirkwood this would apply to. But where it does apply, it has some impacts to the properties. Rated rain numbers and it affects 1000 parcels in Kirkland. And so that is a generous amount, but that represents only 10% of Kirkland. So some more terms. So the mayor asked what freeboard is. So freeboard is the amount of water above the 100-year elevation. So what our current ordinance refers to is there is one foot of freeboard required from that 100-year storm. And to give council a general idea of what a 100-year storm is, in the St. Louis area, it's around six to seven inches of rainfall. So cover that. varies you know intensity of rain over over a year uh over a certain time period there's a lot that goes into that um specifically but in general terms um it's uh it's around seven inches of rainfall um so with that those are kind of the terms um so we have the national flood insurance program it's the nfip so currently We are registered in that program that allows homeowners to get flood insurance. And homeowners can buy flood insurance regardless if they're in the floodplain or not. However, if you have lean on your property if you're getting a loan from a bank and you are close to a flood plain some banks will it will definitely require flood insurance but and you're not required to get sometimes it's good to have flood insurance because So with that, I think we're going to turn it over to Rick to go through the rest of it. And then as questions come up, I can address this.

Meeting council. I'm going to kind of run through this and then open it up for questions that you might have on the ordinance provisions. There's three major changes that we discussed here in the memo. The big one is, like Chris mentioned, we're proposing a two-foot increase, an increase from one foot to two foot for that elevation of G, the base flood elevation. The methods are, again, improve protection of future flood events. Additional redirection and also reduction in the National Flood Insurance Program premiums, roughly 10 to 20%. So there should be a reduction in premiums. And greater resilience against changing rainfall patterns and flood risks. Our top 10 storm events have happened this century. So it's only gonna get worse. The second big one was establishing compensatory storage requirements. And what that means is that, you know, you fill a foot, you have to excavate a foot. You've got to get the volume back out. So if you put 100 cubic yards in, you've got to remove 100 cubic yards. And it's got to be connected to the floodway. So that wasn't in there before. I've kind of strengthened the Floodplain Administration and Subsection of Enforcement. That was kind of a suggestion by SEMA. A lot of agencies don't do that, and then you don't have the team to enforce the code you need to. So some of those details are in there. And this presentation tonight, this isn't accepting the ordinance. It's just a proposal. It's got to be advertised for at least 20 days, open to a public hearing, and then decided on in key counsel. Questions? I mean, a lot of details of this.

Yeah. Couple questions. Going back to the first one, it's the one foot above base . What's that do to the first floor height requirement that we currently have ? First floor height?

This is based on the elevation of the lowest point of your building.

Right. So if we're building a new residence, I'm not a builder. I don't know anything about this, but I just know that there's first floor height requirements. So if we're increasing this from one foot to two feet, does that have any effect? It may have no effect. It may not.

It depends on what your property is. So it could have an effect. Yes, it could.

Okay, I think so. All right.

What I'll add is that it's your lowest cell elevation or your lowest where water can get in. So if you have a basement door, per se, that would have to be a foot higher based on this proposed change. So in the design of the home, likely that's going to raise that one foot higher. So that is a concern that we have to address.

What about window wells for the fire to get in and out for basements?

Same thing? Same thing. So if that's your, if you don't, if it's not a walkout ground, that would be your lowest sale. Okay.

Oh, because the door well would be the lowest. Yes.

So it's literally whatever that lowest opening is that floodwaters can get into.

Would that prevent basements then in a flood?

No, so it doesn't account for like a floor drain or sanitary drains that are that are in the basement floor. It's only for Louisville. That's that's that water.

Although we have to Tuesday night discussions are all of these literally sitting on there. There's clearly positive on what people have, right? When we talk about stormwater. Right. Right.

Yeah.

So that could be like some, some, yes.

Right. It all depends on what the water table to be in the area. So different times in the year, water table is higher and lower.

Yeah. We talked to one of the builders asking stormwater and they said they've, they've done, so Sterling engineering has done tests and In aid of their locations and have known and in Kirkland and not found any groundwater within a code based on.

But these are all subject to the map so right Chris I mean, this is just like wherever the those those zones are you only get 10% within the city so.

Yes, so i'm going to go over some of the most prominent locations, where we have for playing. So we have floodplain all in Waffingwell, in front of the New Public Works property, along Grand, up on Avery Court. So those are the primary spaces we have. So it's not everywhere in Kirkland.

All right. So if we do something like this, will this raise the cost of building a new home? You want to bring new dirt in and raise it and that costs more money?

Actually, yes.

One of the issues I have with all this we're trying to do is we're increasing the cost of new homes in Kirkwood. At the same time, we're talking out the other side of my mouth saying housing institute is not affordable. Well, it's because of all the new requirements we're posing on these guys. That's getting even to the requirements, the permits, the BMPs, now this. Anyway, moving on to number two, the storage requirements are going to be fulfilled. Can you give me an example of where this is maybe an issue that they've been taking out and not been replaced?

I can't not not anywhere. So this is a requirement of change from SEMA. So SEMA has a template ordinance that they give the cities. And so this is one of the one of the one one of the sections they suggested to put in. And this goes to, you know, decreasing flood nights Right.

But to your knowledge, we haven't had any situations where people have, I guess, removed dirt and not put it back in. Is that what I understand this to be? Is it requires any dirt that's taken out and to be replaced with one-on-one basis?

Yeah. So anytime you, so that's where you fill it in. So when you fill in or build up an area, you need to excavate a different area. So it's, you know, changing the elevation. So you balance it.

Yeah, so you balance it. So more likely it's an incursion where you're putting more fill into it, that you're raising it on maybe your downstream properties or whatever, and you've got to take that amount out so you don't have that effect. So you have a zero effect.

This would be on any new residential and commercial property?

So this would only be if the property is located in a floodplain, which I talked about, which is very limited.

Right. If somebody wants to add an addition, it's just new development. It's not any addition or anything of a property inside the floodplain.

Is that an addition? Mayor Mrakas, is with inside the fun fine. Mayor Mrakas, If you're if you're.

Mayor Mrakas, Right, but if you're doing a slide on. Mayor Mrakas, That doesn't affect wouldn't change her right all right okay.

Mayor Mrakas, So we're going to ask them to increase from one foot two foot. Mayor Mrakas, And because we're asking them to increase the two foot the second provision then comes into place. that they then need to dig a hole that prevents their increased elevation water from running down to somebody else's house. Is that true? One and two are related in that way? It could be. I mean, they don't necessarily have to be all the time. And you said it this time. You don't know of anywhere that this has happened in Berkeley. And so I'm always why are we having for instance, the curb would if it's never happened before, but we are likely to make it happen because we don't increase the freeboard and extra foot.

Increasing the freeboard board, but most likely force that structure up and down and creating more, which is why we need to have number two, because we have number one. Not necessarily. No. OK. No. All right. No. Because we could totally strike two and keep one. OK. Does that make sense?

Well, not yet. But that's on me for not knowing quite enough about flood management, waste water, or need water, and all that right now. It seems like everybody else understands that better. So that's just my lack of information.

I also have a list of communities that have adopted the two-foot That would be helpful. Yeah, town and country, Berkeley, Frontenac, Benton, Woodson Terrace, Chesterfield, University City, Wildwood, and there's a lot more. There's 60 of them throughout the state.

Oh, wow.

It's not uncommon.

In three spans of the duties of the floodplain administrator, is that you, Professor Regan? It used to be the building commissioner, so it's kind of a new duty.

So our current ordinance states that the building commissioner is responsible. It's the floodplain administrator. So with this change, with this ordinance change, we're having that duty assigned to the stage. Gotcha.

And we're doing that because we're going from a building commissioner to an engineer. So there's more knowledge there with an engineer.

Um, yeah, so it's, you know, going through the training of going to CMO and so on. Yes.

Yeah. Yes.

So, um, one of the things that I picked up out of this, I just want to make sure I understand clearly. One of the things that the, uh, FEMA and FEMA are encouraging us to do is to do this and put it in code so that we can reduce the homeowner and property owner's potential insurance. Is that correct? Right. By 10 to 20%? Yes. And potentially not being able to get insurance or a loan because the banks would see that as a risk of being in the floodplain and not following female or senior.

Right.

So if I'm a homeowner or I'm BUILDING A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND I DECIDE TO DISREGARD OR NOT BUILD TO THAT, I MAY NOT RISK MY LOAN AND I MAY RISK INSURANCE.

WHICH I GUESS ALSO IS A GOOD INDICATION WHY WE NEED TO GET THESE IN PLACE.

I THINK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE IMPACT TO HOMEOWNERS, RIGHT, I'm looking at it from a, if I am going to borrow money in order to build a new commercial property or build a home, my cost for that loan could be higher because the risk is higher to the person loaning the money. And the insurance companies, Justin might be able to address this better, they're becoming less risk-tolerant, especially with something around flooding. Therefore, if we allow a homeowner to build a home in floodplain, that is going to flood eventually at a 500-year risk. The 100 years happening more frequently, 500 years, well, it hasn't happened. And we just heard how while even we're having stormwater issues, which could exasperate the situation and be considered flooding. Right. So it's been stormwater that due to additional info builds that could create additional flight issues, even though it's not a large rain event. But if the stormwater fails, that's still considered flooding, correct?

Yes. And that could still be covered under flood insurance.

So we already know we have a strained stormwater system. And so as we add more infill, we're increasing the likelihood that anybody can build in those areas. And we've heard people today talk about that, that they live in the area where the yards are flooding and those types of things. So to me, that risk that is happening, not even in floodplain areas, because of the stormwater issues, actually are the bigger problem. for a homeowner.

I would say that affects more residents appropriately.

By having this, then we get designated as a community who is putting emphasis on that and helps reduce all of the flood insurance risks, right?

Would that affect everybody's flood insurance? It might happen on my property that's not one of these flood claims. Nobody in my neighborhood has to implement any of these three things. Why would that affect my blood insurance?

I'm not the one to answer the actuary, but I'm not allowed to put it on in my room. I think that that would be a question to understand for the whole. This is the water.

And I think that's the timeliness of it is that we did discuss stormwater the other night. Now we're talking floodwater. So I think the timeliness of making sure we put a good package together for all of them, it's a good idea. And this right now would affect 10.6% of our people, about 1,000.

That's a significant amount. And it's an area that's being developed, right? Like there's a lot of... Some. Yeah, Avery. Yeah, definitely. That's an area that we're seeing more... empty lots that could be developed.

I have a couple of other questions if I may, ma'am. So you told us six to seven inches of rain is a storm of 100 years. What's the 500 year storm? I don't know. And then five times that amount. And then have these numbers been recently updated? You know, we are hearing of 100 year storms happening every seven years. I believe with the precipitation and the alteration in what's happening in climate, are these numbers even still valid?

The maps, I just want to make this comment too, we have to still use the maps that are specified in the ordinance. They have new ones that are under revision that are probably going to come out and be formally approved in about six months, and those kind of change the flood point.

And that might alter... One storms of 100 years for 500 years really are. It could slightly. Yeah. Okay. When it all turned up or considered at all.

You wouldn't alter these revisions that we're considering.

No, no. Well, we do have to, and if I'm wrong, right, but we have to update our ordinance every time there is a new effective map. So the last effective map, I believe, was point 15. So, you know, the last effective is 11 years ago, and they're supposed to come out with one in six months.

So are you anticipating that we'll be looking at changing this again in six months then?

So again, we wouldn't have to change it unless the council wants to hold on this and wait for that amendment to be effective, which could be, could even be longer. But it's not, that's probably not recommended.

Okay, not recommended. Would we just... re-adopt the same thing, perhaps?

That would be, yeah, that would be the only change in the ordinance.

Is what a storm of 100 or 500 years would be?

So it's not changing the calculation of what a 500 or 100 year storm is. It's changing where the floodplain is on the effective path. That's cool.

So that was part of my question. So, and I want to make it clear, because I think the timing list can be very interesting. We could adopt this in six months. They expand the areas, right? That's what I'm hearing that they could expand the floodplain. We already know we have a preliminary map. Okay. And so that's been out for several years. How long do you, how much, how many more parcels do you think will be impacted? That change. I don't know. That's my favorite part. But your calculations so far have been in the previous map of that 10.6% thousand or so.

And just for my clarification or anything else. So I'm talking about what storm maps are. You're talking about floodplain maps. Okay. So now I'm on the same conversation you're having. Thank you.

Okay. Any more questions? Do you need anything from us further at this point?

I think, you know, I think we've got some homework to do and we'll come back to the council before it comes back to a public hearing.

Can I ask that because this is so complicated that kind of an FAQ be created to just help the citizens understand some of these terms Some of the implications that are in more of a maybe tested on someone who's not, you know, as technical on knowing of this to help us make sure that we all are communicating in simpler ways than the ones or widely considered.

Chris, when you say public hearing, you mean a public hearing in council. That's something else.

And then all as public hearing versus open house. versus town hall meeting. I don't have a huge definition of a town hall meeting. We're talking public hearing. Public hearing, the jam that follows. I guess in a small way, I'm wondering if a town hall meeting or an open house may be as or more educational for our citizens. I'm just pondering that.

yeah we can we can definitely look into an open house yeah that's the way so that i think that would be a one-on-one discussion yeah yeah specific people that are interested yeah thank you anything else all right thank you very much okay

Now we are going into some sunshine training that Jack is going to bring for us.

Yes, thank you, Mayor. The Mayor and Darren asked that I provide just an overview of the Sunshine Law. This is a training we probably all have before. So I'm just going to talk generally about what the Sunshine Law is and what it requires and allows. If you have questions, we can talk about those followed by presentation. So the Sunshine Law, as you all know, is Missouri's law that relates to public access to public records, public meetings, and then votes of government bodies. Generally, under the Sunshine Law, there's a presumption that the records, meetings, and votes are open. But the Sunshine Law provides that certain things can be closed. And it provides a list under 610.021 of those provisions of when when records or meetings or votes might be closed. There is also a section in section 610-100, which relates more to police records specifically. And so anytime there's a Sunshine Law request or looking at what you're doing under the Sunshine Law, you have to look at all of those, a number of different provisions, those being two of them when you're considering whether a record is closed. So talking about just what is a public meeting, I'll start there. A public meeting is generally anywhere where there's a forum of the public body where public business is being discussed. And that does not necessarily mean that it has to be formal, does not necessarily mean that any votes have to be taken. It's just that if there is a forum of the public body discussing public business, then it can be a public meeting. So when you are out having dinner, if there is a quorum, you want to be careful not to have conversations about public business during those times. But it doesn't cover, it doesn't mean you can't go to dinner. It just means when you go to dinner, don't discuss public business at that time. Also, you can discuss, council members and members of public bodies can discuss things like ministerial things, like when are we, when is that meeting going to be, or we're going to have council on, members appear at the parade. Are you interested in being on the float? Those are ministerial. Those are not discussions of public business. So those would not be public meetings. So what else can be a public meeting? Your correspondence, emails, for example. If you are having an email discussion with four or more council members, that can also, if it's a forum, could constitute public business. So you want to make sure if Council members, public body members should make sure that they are not discussing public business in emails with more and more members. If they did, then it would be public meeting and the public meeting requirements would apply. That's having an agenda announcing when the meeting is going to be, how the public can attend, for example. And since you can't do that via email, we don't have, we try not to have those discussions via email. um see i'll just note that the for the city purposes for example um the city council obviously is um the board commission but so are all of our appointed boards and commissions so planning and zoning the board of adjustment um the human services commission all of those are subject to the sunshine law And so they also have the requirement that they post notice of their meetings, and they take minutes of those meetings, et cetera. So just because you're not the City Council doesn't mean you're not a body of the city that would be required to follow the Sunshine Ball requirements. As far as what happens at public meetings, the items should be an agenda item so that the public is aware of what you're going to be talking about at that meeting. Under the Sunshine Law, agendas have to be posted at least 24 hours ahead of the date and time of the meeting. And the agenda has to include the time, place, date, and the tentative agenda in a manner reasonably calculated to advise the public of matters to be considered. Now, there is an exception where you could have a change within 24 hours if there's good cause, where it's impossible or to state on the record or in the agenda what is going to be discussed. Emergencies are one such area where you may not even know that there is something to discuss until one hour before the meeting, for example. If you're going to allow public comment or have public hearings, those are also included on the agenda as agenda items. Just because an agenda is posted doesn't mean that it can't change, as long as those changes are generally within the 24 hours unless the exception occurs. And our clerk, Floria, she does a great job of We'll see the agenda and then if there are changes, she'll make very clear that this amended agenda and no time and place that it was posted before it goes up. Public meetings, generally speaking, can be recorded by the public, but closed meetings are closed and not. That being said, the city council or any public body can have rules and regulations of or guidelines of how and when the public recordings can happen. Under the Central Law, you can set guidelines if you would like. Action taken by Council is under the Central Law. It all has to happen via a vote. And then the vote is recorded in the meeting minutes. If a council member is not physically present, generally speaking, they cannot vote on an item unless an exception applies. Under the Sunshine Law, there are generally two exceptions. One is if the member is participating via video conferencing, and the second is in an emergency of the public body. Excuse me. When there's a form of the body physically present, then others could participate via electronic means. That's something different than video conferencing. So like you're on the phone, for example. And we also state the nature of the emergency. Votes related to closed meetings are all via roll call. So your vote to go into a closed meeting, your vote to go out of the closed meeting, and votes within the closed session are generally all by roll call. Just like you need an agenda and topics to be on the agenda for your open meeting, Your subjects that you discuss in the closed session should also be items that are subjects that were intended to be discussed in the closed meeting and should try to stick to those topics and not wander around.

Let's see.

And then I can just go through some of the examples of where meetings might be closed. I'm sure that all of you have experienced some of this or might have examples as well. But one example is where we're talking about employees, not all matters involving employees have to be closed. But if you're talking about personal information of the employee, Hiring, firing, disciplining, for example, those are all in closed session. If you're talking about elected officials, though, or committee members, they're not employees of the city. So we couldn't use that exception that for employee matters to close the meeting. Similarly, real estate matters can generally be closed. But that's where public knowledge of the transaction might adversely affect the legal consideration, therefore. happen, or there are terms, or the price are being discussed, and that might impact the city's ability to negotiate the terms of that agreement or whatever the city is trying to do with respect to that real property, the sanction law allows those to be closed. Those are just two examples. There are more that we can talk about. So for example, legal actions, we talked about real estate, contract negotiations, similar to the real estate matters, but contract negotiations can also be close, similar reasons for business purposes. So that, you know, if you're negotiating with one parties that, you know, their competitors out in the public aren't able to come in and undercut, you know, just one example. Also any... Other records that are protected from disclosure by law can be closed. So for example, social security numbers are closed. So if you're asking for a record that has social security number on it or medical records that are in the city's hands, those are records that are otherwise beyond the Sunshine Law subject to closure. And so the city will, if those are topics in the public record, for example, those are items that will be redacted before it's produced. Just because something is done in a closed meeting doesn't mean it always stays closed. So, for example, when we're talking about employees, if there is a vote on hiring, firing, or disciplining an employee, the final vote on that action becomes public within after 72 hours. If there was a lawsuit that is settled, for example, the settlement, the vote, and the minutes related to that would be public records after the settlement agreement is final. With respect to leasing and the sale of real estate, if the city ended up selling a property and there was a contract that was signed and the sale was closed, then that contract would be the minutes and documents related to that could become open records. Those are just a few examples for you. Most of the provisions in the Sunshine Law don't have that, but then it becomes public when, but some of them do, and those are a couple of the examples. So what is a public record generally? So outside of the meeting context, What are public records? That might include emails. That might include memos or notes from staff. It would include packets from council meeting night. It would include documents that were prepared for the council by a consultant, for example. And it would include, I already mentioned this, email correspondence between yourselves and constituents, et cetera. Let's see. With respect to who can make a Sunshine Law request, there's not really a limit on who can do that. Any member of the public can do it. They don't have to live in the city. They don't have to tell you why they want the documents. They just have to make the request and then the city can charge or at least they can charge or they can waive for providing those records. And Lori, again, the clerk, handles all of that. And so all of the requests go through the city clerk. And she responds to each of those requests. When there is a request, generally speaking, the city has to at least respond to the request within three days. It doesn't necessarily mean the city has to actually provide records. If it will take more time to obtain We want to collect the documents that are being requested, but the city clerk will let the requester know why it's going to take more than three days. Let's see. If there is a record and part of the record is exempt and part of it is open, we always have to provide what's open and we just redact what's exempt. And again, the custodian of record is encouraged in doing that. Under the Sunshine Law, there are penalties for or not following the Sunshine Law. There is a distinction between whether it's a knowing violation or a purposeful violation, but the violation does require that it really be knowing or purposeful. That being said, that would be to impose a fine. If there was a vote, for example, in a closed meeting and that vote was challenged, then a court might be able to avoid that vote without there being sort of a knowing or purposeful finding. Let's see. Also, the member of the public body is not liable if they have followed a reasonable policy adopted by the body pursuant to the Sunshine Law. That is just a general, broad overview of the Sunshine Law and how it operates. That's closing my presentation for today.

Thank you. Any questions?

I'm not sure this will be considered questions versus comments, and I appreciate that I'm not looking for answers versus raising concerns. So I have concerns that Kirkwood goes into closed sessions more often than we should, and this is my opportunity to voice that. I appreciate how tedious record keeping can be, Laurie or Kirk. just in my looking at what was brought up, hiring, firing information should be made available to the public within 72 hours. And we've had two substantial changes in personnel, and I'm not sure that those records were available in 72 hours. And I'm only questioning right now because of the tediousness of truly going back and looking, just even in the two months I've been here, You know, running back and forth between where I'm keeping my minutes and paperwork and documents and packets to try to connect all of those dots is laborious. And so I can only imagine the challenge that our clerk has in keeping track of all of these meetings that we just heard that if something becomes public that gets to be posted. But if it's a meeting where something isn't public yet, that needs to be redacted. I have mentioned a concern I had over the selection of the contract at the Leffingwell property that I did not understand why that was a closed session. We were reviewing bids and choosing a bid. It wasn't contract negotiations. We had a little bit of a conversation about this one or that one. But it really wasn't about the bid. They weren't sealed. By that time, they were open. I have a question about when KAA purchased city property. And I appreciate the negotiations might have been closed, but I'm not fully understanding, and no, I wasn't on council yet. Did we sell public property? And if we did, why wasn't that available for the highest bidder? Why was that a closed session situation. It may, you all may know something I don't know, but that's a concern that I have. Some questions that might be more appropriate later is the daisy chain process. If an individual emails us and we reply all, is that part of Sunshine that we need to be mindful of inside of an email chain that we're all on. If a constituent emails all of us, I think even Councilman Schaefer talked about, oh, I'll handle this one. So if any one of us replies all to the person who's asked a question, I believe that puts us in violation that it's included a quorum of the council. And so I think policies and procedures for that will probably be approved. So I have concerns about some of these things, and the amount of time it would take me to check seems incredibly tedious. And so I just want to raise that one, that my concern is that we close more often than not. Thank you.

I would like to ask a clarifying question, Jackie. You mentioned emails. But does it include any electronic communication, including text, chats, and so chats in Nextdoor, or if you're on a Facebook chain, things like that?

I will say that's a gray area that the Sunshine Law doesn't explicitly speak that we can certainly talk about specifics.

So electronic is specific around email.

I mean, it discusses electronic. Let's see.

I'll get back. It was one of those that I, in previous trainings with you at the state level and at the municipal league, I took away that it included tax. And so when you didn't say that, it's like, oh, wait a minute, is there a difference?

No, public records is any record whether written or electronically stored. Got it.

So that would be almost any, in my understanding, like that.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. So in response to what you were asking about, I would like to clarify. is that and everybody can see it i'm not including everybody but i did that because the mayor we had done that prior and it was just questions that came up and so whoever was had the knowledge like with scouting or with superlaterals or stuff like that well i was at that point so and that's fine i had no problem doing that and everybody took their turn so that's how that all there was no malice there.

No, it occurred to me that that seemed to be the way for you to say, I've got this one, that you handled it, that it did not become a situation where all of us, where a quorum was on that responsive email. No, I appreciated that. Okay. That's just part of my issue. Yeah. you would avoid having a quorum and one of us replying all to answer the question. Sure.

But only if everybody's not included in the reply, right?

Right.

Generally, but we can talk about that more.

Okay. Can I ask another question? So you used the term, I'm not an attorney, I know there's a couple here. So nothing versus purposeful. Can you explain the two for me so you break down to my level so I understand?

As I sit here, I don't think there are definitions within the Sunshine Law.

So as I sit here, I can't tell you how courts have interpreted that. But I can tell you. Can you just shoot me something so that I understand? You know, it's just part of it.

Okay. We need to go to the closed session. May I have a motion? Motion.

Mr. Leiter, please, during the motion to go into closed, you'll read the section off of the agenda as to why we're going into closed.

Who ever makes the motion must state their motion in. Okay.

I MAKE A MOTION TO CLOSE THE MEETING PURSUANT TO R.S.M.O. CHAPTER 610.20.021, ONE LEGAL AND OR FOOTFUL OF CLOSED SESSION MINUTES AND 12 CONTACT ASSOCIATIONS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THERE WE GO.

ANY QUESTION OR DISCUSSION?

ROLL CALL, PLEASE. MAYOR GIVENS. YES. COUNCILMEMBER ARNOLD. YES. COUNCILMEMBER BROCKETT. YES. Council Member Jackson. Oh, sorry. Council Member Jackson said he's absent. All right. Council Member Lavender.

Yes.

Council Member McLean.

Yes.

Council Member Schaefer.

Yes.