Historic and Architectural Preservation Board - Regular Meeting

Thank you. Good morning. I'd like to call to order the, April 9 meeting of the Historic Architectural and Preservation Board, and we'll have a roll call. Attendant, please.

Chair Beebe.

Here.

Ms. Trammell? Here. Ms. Moore? Present. Mr. Stecetti?

Here.

Mr. Watkins? Here. Mr. Green?

Here.

And Mr. Barrick?

Here. Great. All right. We'll go ahead and look at the minutes of March 12. Are there any corrections, additions, modifications to these minutes? If not, entertain a chair will entertain a motion to approve.

Okay.

Helen Moore seconds. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Seeing none, the minutes are approved. Thank you. All right. This time, we're going to have some general audience participation. So, I understand we have a presentation from the mayor. Mr. Bachota.

We do not have anybody signed up for

office Okay. Thank you. This is a rare opportunity to hear from the mayor. Good morning. Good morning.

I don't get to do this very often. It's actually gonna be me, the clerk, and the city manager, and I believe the attorney is gonna fill in for the attorney. Presentation up here.

You said space bar, right?

Okay. So normally what we would do is every year, we would have a joint meeting with all of the board chairs. And it's myself and the charter officers. And it's really just to kind of go over any questions that came up from the previous year and anything moving into the future so that we can make sure that we're all on the same page. And we've been doing that pretty regularly.

This year we decided to do something a little different because chairs are changing and a lot of members of the board don't actually get to hear what we discuss. So as chairs have changed over time and different folks are taking over those roles, we felt it was probably a little bit more important to address each board and let every board hear what we're talking about. So a little bit more formal than what we would traditionally do, usually we just have pizza and we all sit there and talk about trials and tribulations and and changes within the city. So little different this year, but but I think this is good so that everybody can hear it because the boards are subordinate to the council and I like to make sure that you hear from your council so that you know that, you know, number one, of course, we appreciate what you're doing. I mean, this is a thankless job and somebody's got a volunteer to do it and and we're very appreciative of you guys for doing that.

But on top of that, you know, it's nice every once in a while to get together and see each other and say, hey, how are doing? You know, so that that's the purpose of today is just to to come together and kind of have some discussions, go over some things. I'm gonna stay out of the legal as much as I can. So Sunshine Law, all that kind of stuff, we all have the training on it, we're all required to have the training on it. Anything on on legal proceedings, I'm gonna leave to the attorney.

And then I've also got, like I said, the charter officers are with me because I think it's important that we cover the roles and responsibility of our staff liaisons and the clerk's function. I mean, they have a huge function in making sure that all of these boards function the way that they're supposed to and that we retain the records. So I think it's very important that we all come together and have that discussion. So when I'm done with the presentation, all of us are here and we'll gladly take some questions. If there's any questions as I go along, mean, I don't typically like to be too formal, so just by all means stop me and say, What are you talking about?

All

right, so let's move. If any of the charter officers want to join me up here, you're more than welcome to. There is an extra seat. So boards, you you guys make recommendations to the council. Typically, we have this fairly new process where we do these legislative referrals and it's so that we can formalize the communication between us.

You guys may have something that you think is appropriate for you to look into, you pass that over to the council and the council says, Yes, we like the direction, let's go ahead and codify that and say that this is formal for you guys to be working on. Vice versa, the council may have something that we think is right up your alley as far as something for you to handle and we may send that over to you in a legislative referral so that you guys know, hey, the council has directed you to look into this. And then there's other boards that, you know, specific you guys have some of these responsibilities planning commission that they're more legislative directives, so statutory. You guys have functions that you have to accomplish outside of just the council telling you to go do this. There's normal things that are going to come to you, whether it's architectural approvals or in the Planning Commission's case, you know, land use approvals and stuff like that.

So, obviously, we all follow the Sunshine Law, and then I'll move this over to Clerk Michaels so she can cover this slide with you.

Good morning.

Good morning.

So you're pretty familiar with the Clerk's Office. We do your onboarding and we make sure if you have any questions that you come to us and work through the clerk's office to assist you in your important roles. That's really what we're there for. I just wanted to talk about how important quorum is. So because quorum, you need quorum to act in a meeting, you need a vehicle to let us know whether you're going to attend, right?

The whole purpose of letting us know is because we're keeping track of the numbers and what we want to do is make sure if there is no quorum that we can cancel the meeting before you show up and sit here. So that's really what we're doing here in the clerk's office. You can contact us if you can't attend. And then as far as virtual attendance, we get asked that question. The council has really only authorized a limited virtual attendance at this time because to act there needs to be a majority present.

So there are limited opportunities. Currently it's those opportunities are for council and planning commissions. So for your board you would want to be here in person in order to transact business. Any questions about that? Okay, next.

So with that, some things that we saw post COVID that we felt were very important as a council was, for instance, we had some virtual meetings that were happening during that time and then as we learned and adapted to it, we actually made it a mandate that the mayor must be present during the meeting in order to conduct a meeting. So we've changed that to now the chair in our case, the chair must be present order to run the meeting. So if I as a mayor am not able to attend, I would yield to my vice mayor if he's in person to run the meeting while I just attend as a council member at that point. So I think that's some things that we've seen over time even with technology, it's great but to see everything that's going on in this room, to hear everything that's going on in this room, unless you're talking directly into these microphones, you may not hear what's being done at home. So when you're in the room, you hear everything that's going on as you guys know sitting up at the dais.

And with that, everything that happens in this room and I I remind staff often because with the changes that we've made, we can hear people talking all the way back at the staff tables loud and clear like they're sitting right next to us. So I remind everybody just remember that as you're moving forward that people can hear you at the dais and we can hear you in the back of the room and it's just like a TV studio in here and it's meant to be that way so that we can you know, provide people at home the opportunity to participate, you know, and hear what's going on inside of their government for transparency purposes. With that as well, I just remind everybody that properly stated motions, you know, I spend a lot of my time working with the clerk and the attorney to just make sure that we're going over Robert's rule on a regular basis so that I understand, you know, in seven years there's been things that still haven't happened yet, you know, so what do we do in this case, what do we do in that case? But also making sure that we word these motions so that it's crystal clear what the intent was and that you don't have to go back and watch six hours of video in order to understand what everybody meant.

So I just remind everybody those kind of things are really important, plus the council as well. If I wanna know what's going What what did you mean by this? Instead of having to go back and and review the video, I can just go, you know, listen to the motion and and, okay, I know exactly what you guys wanted to do. Obviously, keeping your discussions cordial, know, everything is is meant to be civil and politics have gotten crazy these days and I'm fortunate and we are fortunate that it really hasn't made its way into the city of Venice as you've seen in other boards. We don't have a line of people waiting to get in to protest and make their speeches.

So I think that's a blessing for us and our citizens respect that we have other jobs and we are doing this you know, of our own volition and volunteerism. That said, audience participation, one thing I typically remind people is that when folks do come to these meetings, we have to remember that a lot of people in our community aren't very familiar with how government works. And so, when you have conversations with people that show up to your meeting and they come and they participate, never hesitate to say, hey, why don't you reach out to the council, why don't you reach out to this particular council member or here's the council liaison in the back of the room that you can go talk to and they can help guide you or or defer them to staff or something like that. So that way, we're also following through and making sure they're getting the answers that they need. It may not be the answer they want, but at least there's follow through.

And I always say that in our meetings as well is that, you know, when you come and talk to the council, this is your opportunity to speak and we're listening. But at the same time, our code doesn't allow us to interact with you and go back and forth. So we've got a process where we tell them, if it's appropriate, staff is in the back of the room, they will probably get with you after the meeting or after you're done speaking so they can at least provide you the direction on where to go to get that information. So I just remind everybody of that, it's important that we make sure they get the follow through that they're here looking for. Okay.

Great meeting start with the chair. I think that you know, Mr. Bibi, you've done a fantastic job. You've been doing this for a long time. So it's one of those things that as you're considering transitions on your board and like I said, we've had some boards, I know the Planning Commission just switched chairs.

We had the same chair for a very long time. And that's fortunate. I mean, it's nice to have somebody with experience that can kind of guide your meeting and especially when you're new, you're coming into this, you really you just got inundated with Sunshine, you just got all this new stuff and you're trying to learn these processes. It's nice when you have a chair who's been doing this for a while. But as as things are changing and and chairs are changing, I just remind everybody that if you're going to volunteer for that position, just remember that a lot of times as mayor, I'm I'm trying to remember the things I want to accomplish that day, but I'm also trying to choreograph this entire meeting and make sure that everything's structured.

I'm always very cognizant of of every individual's time. I don't like to waste the audience time, I definitely don't like to waste the council's time. So I try to I try to keep people on point, I want you as members, you know, to have the opportunity to speak but sometimes the chair is guiding you because of, hey, you've been talking for ten minutes, we got to get to the point and move on to the next thing. So I always just remind people that it's very important that we have a little bit of mercy on the chair because they are trying to orchestrate this and and make it a smooth and functional meeting but also efficient. Public comment, I'm I'm always very careful with public comment, I like the citizens to have as much freedom to speak as possible But sometimes, I mean, you know, and we do have time limits, we have to, you know, sorry, I know you want to speak an extra five minutes, unfortunately, this is the time limit and we want to be fair to everyone, so that's the time we allot for that.

All right. So as far as I think my slides are out of order here, hold on. Yeah, that's what I was saying. My slides a little out of order. So I'm going to yield to the attorney on this slide because it is your slide. It's Okay. Out of order on my

Sorry. Well again, good morning everybody. Thank you mayor. Thank you Kelly. Thank you James.

Thank you everybody. But yes, I'm bit shitting for Kelly, so I'm sorry you have to deal with me and not her. But when so as you've the slide is navigating challenging public hearings meetings and part of this is kind of give you all a broad overview of kind of what kind of meetings do we have and what kind of order and decorum can we get through because we're thankfully we really don't have many heated meetings here that's I've seen we have all of us here have seen what those look like and they can be long, can be difficult, they can be demanding. Occasionally, you know those could come up depending it depends on the property, depends on the relevancy of the application. But at least one of the things is remember understanding what the difference between a quasi judicial hearing and a legislative hearing has.

Here we generally do quasi judicial hearings. And the two differences are legislative meetings are essentially changing the law that applies to the broader community as a whole. So anything that you kind of see, we're actually just changing the code. Quasi judicial hearings are essentially what they are. They're kinda court hearings.

They're applying those rules that we have in place to a specific person, entity, group, what have you and what those effects are. And those can take different forms as here with Hap B, it's whether or not they get a CAC or or they get approval for demolish a a historic building. Saying code enforcement, it's whether or not they have violated the code and we're going to require them to come into compliance or we're going to find them. So it's what does that code say and have you complied with that code or not and what are the ramifications of that? And again, even today we have two public hearings that are both quasi judicial.

And with the important distinction on that is with the legislative, it's much more open ended, it's much freer because it's essentially policy making and what's best for communities. So it's a arbitrary or capricious standard that's being reviewed and whether or not there's a serving a public interest. What that public interest is usually comes across in the hearing. However with we're much more strict and stringent with quasi judicial hearings. And that's and you can see how we do things.

Have three main elements. We have make sure due processes fall, we have followed the essential elements essential element requirements of law, and there's competent substantial evidence. And those we have to and you'll see when I ask you questions and when I know you know you with my questions of have you had any ex parte communication? Are there any conflicts of interest? Those are parts of due process.

It's because it's to ensure that the applicant is getting a fair hearing. And it's the same with when we follow the essential elements requirements of the law is, what does our body of law say about this? And what are the requirements that and did this applicant meet them? Are they in compliance with them? So and that's what we have at all our clause of usual hearings.

We have This is the code This is our code says for happy and these are these are design alternatives. These are what's required in terms of paint scheme or like when we do like stucco or massing, any sort of those things. And has the applicant complied with that or reached those? And then finally is the that it's competent substantial evidence. This is where people kind of get tripped up, it can get tripped up is that what is competent substantial evidence.

It's something that could be basically brought forth in a court of law. It it has to have it. It's not speculation, it's not conjecture, it's not hypotheticals. It's what is the what is the law required and what are they what is being put forward to you, to in front of you here today. This is our paint scheme or this is the amount of stucco we're putting forward today.

Are they meeting those requirements? Not, well in two years what if the what if the proper next to him is gonna do something different or what if they come back to us in a future hearing and somebody We can't speculate on what someone will do in the future or may do, it's Or go beyond what the scope of our hearing is. That's another thing is, and I've Every board Every cause of usual hearing and that's part of my job is to kinda like make sure everyone kinda stays on the rails of that. It's like And it's not that it's not a valid concern or issue to think about or bring up, but it's not something you can rule on because it's not before you. And we don't know if that's going to be the case.

So we have to like keep You basically have to like, what does the law say? What's in front of us? And we can go from there. And it can get in generally in quasi judicial hearings, we don't allow public comment on specific arguments because again going back to the court, we don't It's an issue of what represent What information are they presenting you? Is this competent substantial evidence that's being brought forward to you?

In code enforcement for example, which I which I do is I don't allow any public comments. I'm like, you're not Sorry. It's it's what If we call If we want if want your testimony, the city will call you as a witness. HAP B is different in that we have we have this is affecting land and someone's view. So someone will actually have some built in interest.

So that's why we actually have public comment within our public hearing. So it's it's a specific carve out. We're an exception as such as like a land development coder. It's it's a it's a exception and not the rule because it goes again it goes to due process and competence of substantial evidence. And what you don't want to turn into, well what if we have an application that meets all the requirements that they're supposed to but people don't like it.

Under the law, you're supposed to allow it even though people don't like it. And that's generally who that's because if they if you don't, again, if you deny a application, we have to put out an order together and we have to say specific reasons why we did not follow, why did not meet that application. Because that is the appealable order that ultimately from here would go up to see whether or not it was a valid denial of our application. So that's kind of the two things we have going forward. Jerry, I don't see the question or

understand exactly what you're saying. Yes. We have also in this board, we have recently changed with the Land Development Code, we changed and codified what we do. Ours used to be guidelines, and there's still guidelines, but they were loose in recommendations and that. They're much more codified now.

So we know when we look at something, and we have found through this process, we have found that there are things that need to be adjusted, as early as today, probably. So but we're doing our best to keep it moving, adjust those so that it's fair to all the community, and we really look at that closely. So but that is a that's something that we because it's codified, we have to change.

Yeah.

And otherwise, we end up with we're not sure about what to do there.

And again, when say we have difficult hearings, again, we I always tell people, I always tell advise my boards like fall back on the rules. Fall back fall back on what's required. And it's some people don't like that answer, but unfortunately it's the correct answer because it seems like well it's almost like a cop out. But the truth is like, no, you're following the law but you you have you're having to follow the following the rules and I'll even get into Robert's rules because what we're having to do with this is if you don't do that, eventually it's gonna come it could be very well and if someone wants to appeal it, it could come back to you And you're going to have to do it all over again. And they're then you're just going to have to they're going have to rule in their favor again.

So it's we've expended all this time to basically get back to the same point. And again, if we have heated hearings, again, thankfully we don't have a lot of those, but always one of the better ways to do is trying to follow through with Robert's Rules. It's kind of easy to get it to keep going that way. It's basically just to keep it on the keep it on the tracks, keep it going forward, keep it moving. If it's Say if it's You can always tell, cheer b, we can do it, American can You know when the crowd is getting restless, they're not happy, that's when you want a motion for a recess.

Maybe get a five minute break so like you can cool cool the temperature of the room a little bit. One of the other things is we kind of blend and I found that especially with this board, we kind of tend to blend discussion with the questioning section with we don't it's not really a heated so it's not as big of a deal, it's not that not that big of a deal. But you know if we were having a very heated public hearing, would I probably be like telling you it's like, this is a question answered but if we were going to have discussion on motions, the better the best place to put that is after we have a motion, we have a second, then we have discussion on the motion. That way your record is better is in better shape and it's clear to Mayor's point, it's clearer and it's so that if it goes up on appeal that we know we have a clear motion, we have a clear argument, we have a clear discussion of it and then we if we need to amend the motion, we then have a motion and vote to amend that motion and we have one at a time.

And then we rule on the amendment and then the motion however that has changed. Again, those are kind of rules that keep it growing, keep it going smoothly, keep it going, keep it focused and use the time effectively. But those are those some tips and things I wanted to bring up to this point especially in these And if we had a heated meeting, would probably be trying to be more stringent on all these as well just because all your record, all your words are going to be dissected potentially by attorneys, by a board, by everyone, by someone else if it gets the level. One of my jobs is to make sure that that doesn't happen if it does, doesn't come back to you.

Right. So a question.

Yes.

So a lot of times when we hear a hearing, we know the ordinance relatively well. The specifics of listing sections and actual sub subsections of sections to deny something or to accept something as an alternate in a motion. Technically that would be the best way to do it but A, we don't, is staff able to summarize our motion more legally so that it's clear on the other other side after we agree upon something?

As long as we if it's a if we're moving forward to approving it. Again, ultimately it needs to be as clear as possible. That's that's the baseline, if it's clear as possible. Ultimately staff so and just so if if council needs to hear about it, needs to hear it or if staff needs to go forward, making it as clear as possible is great. If we're going to deny it, I'm going to want section, subsection, specific reasons because that's going to be that's going to be in a written order that's for an appeal. But the more specific you make it, it's never going to be a bad thing.

Okay. I mean the only contrary to that is some of our criteria is more objective. It's been its historical precedent meaning there's some objectivity to that and a lot of times someone will an applicant will propose something and while technically, you know, it's kinda in a gray area as far as really matching or representing the precedent that we that and each of us as a board are gonna have our own opinions about what that precedent is and a lot of times that's gray.

Well remember when the board votes, that is the board's Whatever the whatever the majority votes, that's going to be the that's going to be the stance of the Board. So even if it's even if you vote against it, ultimately, however the Board votes, that's what's going to come forward. That's what the ultimate ruling is. And whatever that motion whatever that motion entails, That's what's that's what's important.

And I will chime in and say as a as a common motion maker, you know, I've experienced over time where where the council it's it's a bunch of of individuals that may be business folks, they they they're not legal. So, when they're making a motion, they're trying to put an idea out there and they might need some assistance in wording it properly for the law.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And that's I run into that all the time where we'll do friendly amendments because one word might be the difference between this passing and not because three members might, No, I don't agree with that. And then we had this the other day, were talking budgetary items and one of the items that we discussed was, if the grant is approved, then yes. Well, that grant word was very important because we don't want to take it out of our general fund, we're only going to do a contingent on a grant. So that's going sway the entire council that, oh, okay, yeah, if there's a grant money for it, we're good with that. But if not, four of us are absolutely against this, you know, and and that's where you run into that they the clerk's office can't summarize our motion because there's very specific words that are being used, so we we don't want them to summarize it.

That's not their job. It's just to what's the motion? And that's what the motion is gonna be. I do that as as a council member, as a mayor, I word my motions very carefully sometimes because I want somebody to know, hold on, this is as far as I wanted this to go. I didn't want it to go beyond that.

And staff has to constantly look back at some of these motions and be like, well, wait a minute, the council was pretty clear, this is where they want us to stop at this point and needs to go back to the council for additional approval. So I mean, like you said, most of this is pretty friendly but there are certain things that are going to be controversial, at they they do get that way in our world, especially with land use. We have to be very particular and stipulations are a big thing for us. I mean, there's there's a lot of that kind of stuff that we're gonna end up in court later and we have ended up in court many times. We've had hearings that have lasted thirty two hours.

I mean, you know, we've done some pretty unique things over time and like Chair Bibi said, we've had to make sure we did five years of land development code to make sure that we codify exactly how long people can talk during all types of proceedings because some folks would interpret things and next thing you know, you're sitting there for an hour listening to the same person drone on about the same thing over and over again, it's like, hold on, you're just delaying this so that we can't get this done.

Right.

You know, so we've had to be very careful and and we're very fortunate as a as a local government, the way I look at a lot of other governments, they're still trying to figure out some of these rules. We've we've had volunteers like you guys that have made sure that, hey, push that to the council so they know these are LDR changes that need to be made. The work that went into our LDR was incredible. I mean, like, from all the way down to

the board level, all the way up

to the council, the staff, I mean, there are so many people involved in the five years of revising our code and luckily we got it through before we weren't allowed to make changes, you know, instead of the one eighty, you know. So like So I mean, like, we are in a very fortunate place from my perspective because we're pretty solid. We we have a pretty tight code that that I appreciate because I'm sitting here a

lot of

times and I have council members may wanna talk for fifteen minutes because they're so passionate, but my code is very clear. They get two opportunities at five minutes or a grand total of ten minutes, that's the max. So I'm sitting here watching the clock, making sure my council members don't go beyond that, so that it's fair for everybody on the board, it's fair for the citizens,

you know, and that's that's the stuff going on in my brain behind a meeting, you know. I think we we did a good job of reviewing before the LDR approval of our section, but it's just it's there's a lot of subjectivity in this. It's architecture, it's design, it's opinions, it's I like this, you're next to me, my neighbor. We do we do a kind of a dance here as we approve and make motions. And I think it's important to do it that way because the board understands what the motion is.

If it comes out and it's not correct or it's not what we just talked about, we typically amend it before we do it. I don't know if that's the best procedural way to do it, but the applicant knows what they're expected of and I think the Board does. So but calling out the sections, I think John's right. It's more laborious that way and it'd be great to have some staff help with that at the end because we, you know, there's a lot of different sections that apply to each, you know, each each applicant. So, but I I think just hearing this, Mayor Patota, is good because the way we make our motions is super important.

We don't have a lot of kickback here. And and I will say But we don't want it.

One thing

You know, we don't want that.

One thing that's important for the board as well is don't feel you have to wait until you get to the meeting to ask the question. Meet with the attorney, meet with staff prior to, so that way you can have three worded motions. I mean, I usually sit with staff and work out my motions before I even come to a meeting because, you know, I'm reviewing this material, I already know what's gonna be on my agenda, I'm gonna have some questions, a lot of what I'm asking is for the public's benefit, not necessarily for mine because I've already gone to staff and asked those questions. So typically I show up and I've already got pre worded motions and then I've got to then tweak it to based on the board's consent in one way or another. So I mean it is a dance and we are very fortunate, know, if you've served on a condo association or a homeowner association, you don't typically have an attorney, you don't typically have staff, like you're usually kind of working through that.

This, we've got a lot of resources and we want you to use those resources while they're here for you. Obviously, you know, I think James is going to talk a little bit about staff liaison and how we can overuse that, but at the same time, I mean, we don't want you to fly blindly through the night, we want you guys to use the resources you have, pre read your materials before you get to a meeting, so this way you're ready to go and you guys can actually work it out here as a board because you know, that's why everything's posted ahead of time so that we have that opportunity. And I know miss Moore appreciates that. She she was her first lesson to me when I started in in in politics was read your materials before you come to a meeting.

And I'm

like, yes ma'am, absolutely. Okay. I'm gonna move on and this is the legislative referral process.

Before you get too far, mister mayor. Yes, sir. In the past, we have always had a council member that was assigned to our meetings and was at our meeting. Helen, it was many years she was here. I don't see that this year. Is he here at every meeting? Are you here at every meeting?

Is he not assigned? Yeah. Yeah.

He is.

Each board does have a council member assigned and I'll make a reminder at the next meeting for them to just maybe come up and introduce themselves to you or even the clerk's office can give you a list of all the different liaisons. Mister Engelke, you know, he's he's newer to the council, but I mean, he is he is at probably 10 times the amount of activities that I'm at and I'm at a lot. So he's a good resource, he's definitely very excited to come back to the council and dialogue and that's what he is, he's your conduit, so by all means use it. I'm gonna go over it a little bit here in a minute because some of the things, you know, technology has changed, so you may not see as much engagement as you used to see with the council, and that might be because we're all sitting at home watching it and we also don't want to step on his toes and 10 of us show up to the meeting and it's really his to be the liaison too. Alright, Madam Clerk?

So I'm going to just briefly talk about the legislative referral process the council put into place to formalize the dialogue between them and their boards. So it works both ways. If you think about it as a street, the council can assign items of topics that they want their advisory boards or their even the ones that like you that make decisions to work on. So that usually comes from the council, it goes, it's recorded in the record and then whoever your person that you're working with the city in this case I think you work with Harry and Roger, they make sure that they are working with the chair to get it on an agenda so you all can make a discussion and do whatever it is the council's asking you to do. But then it also the street goes the other way.

Let's say the board has struggled with something and they really need the council to give them some guidance so that would be the legislative referral that you all would discuss and it would become part of the record and then it would go the other way up to counsel to make a decision on whatever it is that you're asking. And then the third process is your annual report. That happens in the spring of every year. So near the end of the year, your chair may be asking you all to think about, what you'd like to see, what challenges you're experiencing and your chair comes before the council and not only talks about what you have achieved in the past year but talks about maybe what you need going forward. And the council considers that and then makes a decision as to what the next year is going to look like for you.

So that happens every single year. You are all invited to attend that annual report and you just went through it recently. Recently,

yeah.

Yeah. So that's how sort of brings the circle closed in the whole legislative referral and how you interact in your relationship with the council.

I appreciate by the way being able to do that. And I think just listening to the whole legislative referral back and forth, think we could tailor a little better because we do have, items that we think we should address and do, that we have never approached counsel about.

Okay.

That would probably be a forum to do that in, although there may be also some less formal ways to do it as well.

Right. So as the mayor just mentioned, perhaps you have something that less formal that you all discuss, then you have a staff liaison and you also have a council liaison. So if it's a council matter then that council reports, you probably didn't know this, but when they make the reports they will say, well I attended the happy meeting this week and that would be an opportunity for them to say to the council, you know, there's something that they're working on and then the council would say, yeah, that we think that's a good thing and they would ask the clerk's office to get that on the next agenda so that they could formal ize that. So there's lots of avenues that you can use to make that happen especially since maybe you've just done your annual report and then oops something came up.

Yeah.

Right. So Mr. Engelke would be your council liaison and if this is something that needs council attention that would be your avenue for him to bring it before the council and say, hey, is this something we would like to work through? And so get quite

We could few probably use that system a little better than we have. I don't feel like we have enough back and forth, and it's mostly just

Very good.

Very good.

Just us not doing it.

That's why we do these meetings.

We're not finalizing takeaways yet. Hold on. I'm missing some slides. All right. Well, I'm just I'm going wing some of this since the slides aren't there, but let's go back in here.

Yes. There's missing.

That's okay. I'm going to bring that up

and then I'm just going to

go sit on a slide while I talk and okay. Let's back up here a little bit because I got a few things that I wanted to chat about. So I've covered meeting decorum, covered this. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about council member liaisons and we'll make sure we get the updated slide presentation to everybody. It's not really there's not a lot of detail here, so it's not going to be anything that's going to throw you. So we kind of talked about Mr. Inglekey in this case. My background is public safety. I've been in public safety for twenty five years.

So chain of command has been very important to me. I'm stepping into the political world now for seven years and and I've had to kind of relax myself a little bit on the on the the black and white of of of the letter of the law. So I'm always willing to receive the phone call, you should never feel that you can't have a casual conversation with a council member and and hey, we're I'm thinking about this idea that I wanna bring up to the board, is this something council would even entertain? Nothing wrong with having those discussions, right? We're elected officials, we're here to represent you just the same as you're here to help us do do this job.

But that said, I mean, for me, when there's that many boards, it's easier if if you go to your liaison and talk to them. I take this role very seriously because this this is the political piece to this. My job as a liaison is to be the liaison for the council, not for Nick Pashoda. So, I'm not supposed to be bringing my personal ideas and beliefs I'm supposed to represent everybody on that board. So I think that's very important so that you understand that if a council member comes up here, traditionally they should be giving you the direction of the council and saying, well, this is what we voted on and this is what the discussion was.

Not what I believe because I might have voted against the item but it's still passed. So it's very important that you understand, you know, you may be asking them some questions and they're not giving you the most direct answer because they might have a different opinion. However, they're representing the entire body of the council and the direction that was given. So I think that's very important for people to understand, that's why I take it so seriously, it's because I know when I go to my meetings, Nick Pashoda has opinions. But at the same time, I'm not here to represent me, I'm here to represent the council and the people.

So I think that's really important that everyone understands that role. And the liaisons are traditionally very good about, they understand that, you know, and we save our opinion for when we're discussing it as a board and we disagree with each other civilly. So I just I wanted to make sure I made that point to everybody so that you understand, but they are here as as, I mean, a sounding board for you. They're they're gonna Whatever you guys talk about, if it's anything they think the council should know, they're gonna bring that to a council meeting. I made a comment about technology.

So this used to be a much bigger thing back, you know, if if I could show you the slide, it shows where the resolution was changed from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty four. Technology has changed. So council members don't need to show up see the meeting anymore, they can all be sitting at home and I I watch a ton of meetings, just city of Venice but Board of County Commissioners, I mean there's a lot of meetings that I watch that I'm aware of what's going on in our region. So don't think that just because there's not a council member here that we're not interested, it might be that we're just watching your meeting from home or from our office or something like that. A lot of us do still have full time jobs so that's another piece to it.

However, each board is assigned a liaison and that is something we do traditionally once a year. Every November after an election, we would typically review, okay, who wants what assignment. Some folks have a more unique interest in a board, maybe they're an architect and that's why they would be interested in Hapbee. Maybe they're public safety and they have an interest in the police and fire pension boards. We traditionally try to allow the council to select the board of their interest, but we always make sure that we assign somebody to a board.

You So should always have a liaison and if you ever want to know, just ask the clerk's office and they'll tell you who your assigned liaison is. And all of our communication methods are on the website. So email, cell phone numbers, we list our city cell phone numbers on the website so that every resident can get a hold of us. And they do use it. So, okay. That covers the council member liaisons. I'm going turn it over to James so that he can talk to you about the staff liaison because as we know, we are a council manager form of government. So the the council, the policy board gives the the kind of overall view and direction to the to the staff and then they carry that out. So there there's a lot of teamwork that goes on between these two seats to make sure that we do things appropriately. So that's why you have a council and a staff liaison.

Thank you, Mayor, and good morning, everybody.

Good morning.

I think you all know me. I'm James Klench, City Manager here. And before we dive in, I just wanna say thank you for your service. And we talked a little bit about all the changes that have happened with all the boards since the LDRs were adopted. But I really look at you all were the trailblazers of combining the two boards together. And you set an example for all the other boards on how this could can work successfully. So thank you for that. The things we're gonna talk about real quick on the staff side of things. A lot of these did stem from some issues in the past with understanding roles, right? And so I just appreciate, and you all should know, things are going really great right now with our advisory boards.

In fact, I would say they're probably functioning the best that they've ever functioned. It's helping counsel to do their job. You're taking a lot of administrative and important work off of their plate, so they can focus on their priorities as well. And you're helping staff out as well. So these boards really serve an important purpose from staff's perspective because you have a unique perspective of the community and your professional background that we don't have, we can't have because we're working for the local government.

Thank you for what you do. Your staff liaisons and every board does have different staff liaisons assigned. We've had to get a little bit creative. We used to have just one for each board, but now that we have the board mergers that have happened, we have a couple staff members that tag team and it also depends kind of what's on the agenda. We'll rotate staff members out.

So it's a little, less strict on who your staff member is. I know you have Mr. Klinkhammer from Historical Resources and Roger Clark from Planning and Zoning, And Roger will bring some of his other staff as needed depending on what the item is. So that's totally appropriate, and we do that with all the boards. The important thing to remember when it comes to roles, and I know you all know this, is you know, the staff for the city work for me and I work for city council.

So just as you are serving city council, we are serving city council. So our relationship is really more like colleagues or coworkers in a way, rather than, you know, chain of command type relationships. So we're here to help you be successful, and that involves answering questions, providing guidance on code, interpretations, history, information, know, that's what we're here to to help with. Where it starts to get problematic, and again, this is not you, but in the past we've had assignments. Right?

Bring me back a report. Go create this new draft code for me. Go do this. Go do that. And that gets very problematic, you know, mainly because we we pride ourselves here at the city of Venice of of running a a very lean operation. And we we really don't have any staff who are out there looking for extra things to do. So when we assign them things, when I assign them things, when council assigns staff things, it typically means we're we're reshuffling priorities. Right? It it doesn't mean we're we're just filling blank space, we're moving something down on the priority list and we're moving something up. So that's why it's really important that you all work through your liaison in the appropriate way.

And I'll just add, sometimes there's a different topic that you wanna hear about, and you're you're welcome to bring that up to your liaison. So let's say you'd love to learn more about trees or some other topic and you really wanna hear from another staff member. If you tell your liaison that, they'll come talk to me about it and then we'll work through whether that's something we can fit in or not at this time. So it's not that you can't ask for those kind of things, it's just going through the proper process. So I think that pretty much covers everything from the staff role and just thank you again for everything you all are doing and I think things are going really, really well.

Great, thank you. One of the things that comes to mind, and if I could interject, James, is our Board kind of bumps up with code enforcement. We get comments from this Board about what's happening on Venice Avenue to such and such a structure. We always were asked to make write letters by the public and do something about something. We're it's really not our purview, it's not our area, but they kind of overlap.

Anything aesthetic architecturally ends up being talked about. So that may be an area that we could could work and just see if we can understand some of the code enforcement things a little better and also if we can have any effect on that. Not that we're asking to do a lot of more work, but we do have we care about that. So as a Board, irrespective of what the community thinks, I think we all care about it.

That's great.

If there things

It's something that I know we talk about.

Yes. If there are things we can do to help you more successful in your job, we certainly want to talk about that.

Okay.

Thank you. And then if

you just pull up my last two slides, I've got it on the screen now, it's the final tips and takeaways. Okay. So just to kind of wrap up with everybody. So I think there's a few important points that I just want to make. And number one is balance. So in my time of coming to the council, I had watched how meetings were before and how meetings have been done in the past. Was on the Youth Advisory Board when I was 14 years old for the city. So I mean, I have a long history of serving on our boards and now being on the council and experiencing the other side of this. We want you guys to have very efficient and productive meetings. We want you to talk about things that you need to talk about.

And James made a very good point is that we have to balance that, right? So when I look at a council meeting, there was an old philosophy that we stay from nine to five. And I look at it as, hold on, there's people up here that have jobs, there's people down there that have things they need to be doing. And when I say that, I mean staff is typically sitting in our meetings because they're there for us as a council, there's a whole set of directors in the back of the room. I don't need to take up their time hearing presentations just for fun, I I need to, you know, be pretty concise with what we're doing, but I want people to get their answers.

So balance is very important to me. You guys have staff members here, you have the attorney, you have the clerk's office, you have a lot of folks here that are very willing to help you and get you what you need. Just please be cognizant that they do have other things they need to be doing, so if you can avoid, you know, arbitrary discussions just for fun, that's usually what I recommend. Something I do have and ask for you guys today. So, this is very important.

We made a change a while back and we've done some consolidating of boards and we're trying to make sure that things are efficient. We never want to lose the volunteers and the boards that we have that that provide the very incredible and valuable support to the council. That said, the mayor used to make assignments, so the mayor was solely responsible for going out and recruiting every member of every board. Now it's up to the council to make these assignments. We've seen over time a decline in the amount of volunteers, willing to serve on the boards and maybe it's the political climate, there could be a host of reasons.

So all I ask of you guys is that if you have a neighbor, if you have a friend, if you have somebody you know that would be interested in doing this, we do have a lot of openings still. Some of them are as simple as the Citizens Tax Oversight Committee has has one meeting a year, but we're struggling, like, I've three open positions, I think we just filled two, but I'm struggling to find people to the point that I'm literally asking council member spouses. So if you know anybody that's willing to delve into some of this board work, please by all means have them reach out to us, we will gladly explain to them what what they're really gonna be doing and and why this would be a benefit and where they might fit. I'm I will take all the time I need to to sit with people and talk to them about volunteer opportunities in the city because that's what makes this city so great as we have tons of organizations full of volunteers and there are so many different places for people to go that they can do whatever they want to do that strikes their fancy.

So, and then lastly for me, I mean, you know, you can see the talking points on the slide. I won't I won't reiterate a lot of this. I think the attorney made some really good points. I just want you guys to know how much we appreciate you. I know you take time out of your day. I know that this is a thankless job most of the time and you know, without you guys doing this, the legacy would be broken and we wouldn't have this involvement in our community that makes us so awesome. So thank you guys very much for that, I really appreciate you. And with that, do not hesitate to reach out. My email address is up there, my cell phone is on the website. Anytime you I mean, if you just want to run something past me, don't hesitate.

Call, text, it's all on recorded Citi devices, so it's pretty safe. And I'll gladly get back to you or set a time to sit and meet with you if that's what you need from me. Okay?

Any

other questions? Thank you very

much, Mayor Pachota. That's great to have this meeting. Any other questions that anyone has? The mayor or city manager? Thank you. You. Hi,

mister Thank

you very much for your time to come to us. You could easily easily be more efficient. I can see that. But thank you. Alright.

We're going to go ahead and move, to the public hearing. Go ahead and start with the removal of a nonoriginal addition and two story addition along the rear of a house, P L A R 2600059. It's at 417 Nassau Street. Our staff member is Britney Smith, our planner and Sam Hardy, AIA from BB Design Studio is the owners representative and for Samuel and Anna McLean Joyce Joyceann. I'm gonna go ahead and announce that this is a quasi judicial hearing, and it has been properly advertised.

The advertisement is this is to certify that the public hearing for this petition was appropriately advertised on 03/21/2026, as required by the City Of Venice Land Development Code. Proof of publication is on file with the Planning and Zoning Office. We'll go ahead and open the public hearing now. And are there any speakers? Everyone who intended to speak has signed a speaker card?

Yes, Chair.

All right. Mr. Lewis, I think you want to query the Board now?

There we go. Okay. So my first question is again as we discussed, has there been whether or not anybody on this Board has had any ex parte communication regarding this application? And please let the record reflect that the Board has indicated there's been no ex parte communication. The next question I have is whether or not any of the Board members have a conflict of interest with hearing this application.

No.

I know the owners socially.

That's fine. Again, I appreciate that. And I know Chairman Bemi, we discussed earlier that you do have a conflict of interest that we just want to put on the record.

I

have a conflict of interest in firm and my son-in-law is presenting today, so.

And I to reiterate always always on the record, it's like this is not a personal comment on you or your abilities or your character. It's literally just we have to follow the law that you have a that your firm and family members have financial interest in this. So by law you just have to and as Chair you have to

Recuse myself.

Recuse yourself from both discussion and voting on it and hand the gavel over to the Vice Chair.

Okay. And at this time, I will do that. Ms. Trammell, if you would take over. I think I'm going to just stay here.

That's fine.

Just abstain from the discussion.

And I believe there's no other conflicts of interest so let the record reflect that. Ms. Drammel whenever you're ready.

Okay, thank you very much. Let's move on to the staff report.

Yes, absolutely. So Britney Smith for the record planner City of Venice and I have filled out a speaker's card and Harry is here with me today to speak over some parts for the historical resource manager. So this is for PLAR 20 Six-fifty 9417 Nassau Street South. The owner is Samuel and Anna McLean Joyson, and the agent is Sam Hardy at BB Design Studio. The request is for a certificate of architectural compliance for a rear addition well, the removal of the current rear addition and the addition of the new addition and some other improvements including window replacement, roof replacement, and painting the structure as well as installing a wall around the property.

This is in the historic Venice district. Here's an aerial overview of the project. This is about five houses south of the cultural campus in the Arboreum just to give you a little bit of context of where the project is located. So for the project description, this is an existing historic 1926 home. The applicant is proposing the removal of a nonoriginal addition on the rear facade of the house to build a new two story addition along the rear of the existing house, replacing the existing doors, windows, and painting and repair of the exterior stucco and the site wall adjacent to the property line.

There's also a design alternative that's running concurrently with this. Design alternative is for paint colors to exceed the allowable 75% color of the primary coverage of the primary color. There is an additional design alternative that came in after the legal notices were proposed. This is for fence height. So at this point, that will need to be heard at the next HAPB meeting, so we're not really deciding anything on the wall at this specific time.

And the property is surrounded on all sides by other single family homes and only street facing facade is the front. Here are some current photos of the home. I didn't go to the rear of the house, didn't talk to the applicant to do these site inspections so you see simply what I can see from the street front. Here are some historic photos of the property. These were provided in the applicant's packet.

And here's a site plan. So you'll see here towards the bottom is where the existing two story structure is and then in the rear they have the new two story addition covered patio and that shows the proximity to the existing garage as well. So for elevations, the this shows the south and the east elevation with the east elevation being the rear of the house. And continuing with elevation, just see the west elevation is the front of the house and the north elevation is that side that you saw on the site photo with the chimney and everything there. And here are some color renderings.

Just I'll bring this up again when we're talking about the design alternative, but it shows that really there while there's some accent colors around the trim and the door, this is primarily one color. So when you're looking at this, I didn't list all the details of the Venice historic precedent. We've been over them so many times with other projects, but if you look in the staff report, you'll see exactly everything that you're going to be looking at. But we're looking at primarily everything that would be covered in Chapter 87, Section seven. So we're looking at building massing, primary materials, facade colors, the roof, the opening, windows, doors and garages, building features, residential lighting types, fences and walls.

And if you need me to bring up any of those specific examples, I have all the supporting documents that the applicant has provided so I can bring up those cut sheets if you'd like to see the lighting or any of the window and door details as well. So for decision criteria, there's only one decision criteria for certificates of architectural compliance that new structures and changes to structures in the historic Venice District and Venetian Theme District require that SAIC shall incorporate the design characteristics of the VHP style. So again, what we just discussed about with those elements in the VHP style. With consideration of this item and the requirements, staff believes there is sufficient information on the record for HOP B to take action on the subject petition. So now I'm going to hand it over to Harry so that he could discuss his portions of this.

Good morning. For the record, Harry Klinkhammer, historical resources manager for the City Of Venice. So according to Chapter 87, Section seven point eight point eight point three, These buildings fall under my review using the Secretary of the Interior's guidelines. And my comments are merely just recommendations and suggestions. They are not necessarily anything that requires any compliance or decision from this Board.

So based upon the Secretary's standards, a couple of comments that I had made was that the removal of the distinct material alteration of the future spaces, facial relationship that characterized the property will be avoided. And that was just a comment made in relation to the addition compared to the relationship with the current structure with the garage building at the rear. Number six of the standards was about repair rather than replace. I did meet with the representative for the applicant and I was told that those windows are not original, so replacing those is not going to be an issue. Then there was number nine, new additions, exterior alterations are related to construction will not destroy historic materials and space relationships that characterize property.

And so I had mentioned that even though the addition is in the rear, it is technically it is taller than the original building. And so that as far as differentiation goes, I need a better understanding of how they were going to identify the new construction rather from the original one. And the applicant, what they've done is they have off centered the addition in the rear. So that's why you're going to see, especially on the north side, the north facade, you'll see a change in the facade in terms of the rear part sticking out. And on the south side, the rear part is going to be tucked in more than the original building.

And then there was the issue of number 10 of the standards about any new addition that when created that it can be easily removed without damaging the original structure. And I've been informed that the plan is that this original structure will abut the original home. And so that it could be removed without damaging the rear facade with the exception of a window two windows are going to be converted into doorways. And that completes my report.

Okay. Board members, do you have questions for staff?

In the analysis of the original structure facing the street and looking at the old images to compare to the current condition of the home, do you believe over time that that stucco finish has been replaced from the original or is it existing?

That I could not tell you from looking at I mean, it looks like from some of the historical images at the very least the color was different. It's always kind of difficult to tell 100% with black and white images. But clearly, in the one image you see a darker color than what was in the first one. So whether or not that's original stucco compared to what's there now, I would say that it's really kind of difficult to tell and I did not have the opportunity to do a site visit to more closely analyze the stucco walls.

Okay. Just a general comment, especially with the historic homes, it'd be great in the staff's package to include the pictures, original 1926 and then how it's changed through the years, getting those from historical resources would be a great help to include in the staff report.

Okay. They were included in the supporting documentation?

Yeah. I know and I'm glad that the applicant included them but in the staff report sometimes it's just more accessible because they have such a especially in this case such a big submittal that to find find those and compare them. It would just be helpful.

Okay.

Just as a suggestion.

Thank you.

Harry, I owned a 1926 building. Fifty three years ago, I bought it. Okay. And it appears to me that the outside of the structure is basically the same. Over the years, I owned it for forty some years, the stucco did crack because the building did move. It's a frame building, so it's going to move some. But the way it was built in the '26, those were two by sixes and they were straight grain yellow pine and they don't move. You can't drive a nail in them. But it will move and it can be repaired and it can be repainted, which I did several times. Generally speaking, you don't lose the stucco, it simply just cracks.

If that's an issue, it really isn't that much of an issue. Thank you.

Any other questions from the Board? Okay. Seeing none, I think we'll move on to the agent's report.

I do have a quick question. So sometimes when we have a design alternative that's running with the site plan, we'll briefly discuss them both so that when you do your vote and you're getting the presentation from the applicant that you have all that information and you can read those decisions back to back. Is that something that you would like me to do at this time?

Is that all right with the Board? Yes, please do so.

Okay. So everything for the design alternative is included here in this.

Attorney Lewis, do do we need to open up the second hearing then if we're going to be discussing the design alternative for the record?

For the record, yes. I mean ultimately that is the cleanest way because they're two separate cases. I understand the need for understand the need for brevity and keep it moving, especially since it's the same one. But the best way to handle it is we have two separate cases and we handle it two separate ways, in two separate distinct ways because what if one is grand and the other one's not, then you don't want to jumble the record is my, that's my stance. It's I'll leave it at the Board but my recommendation would be to do separately since it was brought to ask me asked.

Is that all right with staff? You can handle that?

Yes, that's fine.

Okay. In that case, let's continue on then with this and listen to the agent's presentation next.

Good morning. My name is Sam Hardy with BB Design Studio Architects. And staff did an excellent job presenting, but I'll do a brief overview. If we have the supporting documents, I might go through a few of those. But the original the intent of this addition really is for the owner's purposes.

It's a beautiful 1926 home that we discussed. And as we all know, these 1926 homes have a lot of character and they're beautiful and the goal is to preserve those. But it is a two bedroom, one and a half bath house. And so for a growing family, it's very natural to want some additional space to live in and to grow and to really preserve these houses. And so that's always our goal is how can we make these homes just wonderful to live in.

And so for this family, they wanted basically the goal of this project is to create some additional living space and also a master bedroom suite, a primary bedroom suite for them. And then the existing two bedrooms would be the intent would be to leave those basically existing for future children and then some additional outdoor entertaining space in the rear that they could really enjoy. And so that was sort of our the driving focus for our firm when doing this design. And some of the interesting features on the exterior, and I'll just go to supporting documents here. As we start to go to the exteriors, with such a, you know, three-dimensional structure, it's kind of difficult to see how the articulation of the building works when you're just looking at it in two d.

So that's why we wanted to provide these three-dimensional perspectives of this addition in the rear. And so the intent here with the rendered perspective from the front, we really wanted the addition to sit in the rear of the home and and to play off of the existing architecture but not attempt to replicate it, also not attempt to make it look like it was original. Original. And so some of the thinking behind especially the way that we touch into the existing house. You can see from this view, we have these large arch top windows on the front of the house with the fireplace.

And that is essentially on the interior, that's a double height existing space, living room with that large fireplace. And part of some of the drivers and the design is trying to when you walk into that house, your view is we're trying to maintain that view. You walk in that house and what you see is $19.26 as much as we can make that happen. And so preserving those openings as we touch into the existing building, those are some of the things that we did with the addition. We're also proposing to replace all the doors and windows.

The windows that are there now are the they're good windows but the way that they attach them, as you could see, I have a lot of pictures from it from the nineteen twenties. I don't have too many pictures of what it looks like today. And one of the things that jumps out today are the windows are installed, it being a framed structure, they're fin attached windows and they are installed to the exterior wall. And so the windows, that's the first thing that jump out to you that those windows are not original. Originally they would have the way they would have been installed is you can kind of see the original windows were these very thin steel windows.

And as we like in the guidelines, they've been installed slightly inboard so you because there's no trim around these windows, it's stucco returns to see that nice shadow line and that's one of the drivers on the door and window package there. But really from the front from you can see these windows with the exception of the original fabric awnings. The goal is to try to make that house as it sits now with a minimal touch, kind of make it look more like it did in the 1920s. And then for our addition, as Harry mentioned, also make it look consistent but distinct from the original house. So if you have any questions.

An interesting point is when you look at the front of the building with the decoration around the front door, it was identical to what I had. They must have just they liked that design. Same thing with the windows. The only thing I can tell you is back fifty some years ago when I tried to replace the windows, the original windows were casement windows and they were wood and they opened out and you had a control mechanism that you had to wind to open them out and the screens were on the inside in order to have it. But when I went to start to talk about replacement, the replacement windows had to be made up in Sarasota and with everything included, they were about $175 for a set of windows where you could put a window in for $35 in the same clothes.

That was an aluminum window, that was one of the big things. The other thing is the front door is really important that you get a really good quality wood front door. It's very expensive but it definitely needs to be in the house. We had to replace ours and it took it was a fortune to do it. And the other thing is when you put your windows in, then it'll square. That house is moved enough, you're going to have some good work to get those windows in right. Yes.

Any other questions or thoughts from the board?

Yes, I have some questions, please. So the East elevation, not that it's not the primary elevation, but the openings on that seem extensive or what percentages is that on the east elevation?

On this elevation towards the rear?

Yes.

Yes. Well, it's a large percentage on that rear. However, the large windows majority of the windows that are on exterior walls and are not covered by deep porches, they are they tend to be smaller kind of punched openings. The majority of the large doors that you're seeing there, especially in a two d perspective, they are underneath that arched basically rear porch. So they're large openings but they're tucked, they're pulled back under the rear porch with that porch kind of defining that because it would be the east facade.

Okay. But it's 50% less?

It would be less than 50%. I don't know the exact percentage but it'd be less than 50%. Okay. Yeah.

So on the primary elevation, the west elevation, You know, I'm from my perspective and the community's perspective that those white windows are getting replaced. Mhmm. The only caveat to that is that the original 1926 images, whatever evidence that we have, that those openings be matched exactly to the size as best that can be determined from those images. That they be replaced in scale as far as width and height Mhmm. To those original 1926 openings.

Because to me, when I compare them, it looks like they were slightly changed. Maybe it's just the how you view the elevation and they look a little smaller on your elevation. Okay. And they do when I look at the exit see how that the upper floor window, how much larger that appears? Mhmm. Yes. Whoops. Sorry.

Yeah.

So I think that that that's really important detail to get right.

Okay.

That that be that you return because you're doing essentially a restoration at that point when you're replacing the window, something that shouldn't have been there to something that should. Right. The that that was original circle vent. Yes. At the top there

Mhmm.

On the west elevation. And what had been replaced is not, and it's not original. Is there any chance that that can be replicated to replace? Because you don't is do you plan to vent the roof?

No. The the the roof will not be vented. Well, that that's not the current intent is to vent the roof. The current intent is to try to there's a decent amount of access up there, so the intent would be to do spray foam insulation and try to make it as modern and energy efficient as you can, a 1926 home. However, you are correct, the vent that's there is does not appear to be original by any means, and it's kind of a stuck on bit as we like to say.

And so yes, we can attempt to recreate something that's more we have a decent record of what that original vent looked like. Relatively simple.

When you zoom in on that existing picture, I mean it was clear. It's just a clean, nice round vent.

No additional trim or thing Yes, around it's just

a nice And simple

along those lines, one of the things that you can see on our front elevations, one thing we are attempting to recreate for lack of a better term is the little railing that appears under that Ground Floor window, kind of that just little basket railing that we saw we see on other homes in this Veniza Park area. And so I see him a lot on another project I'm working on too and we're doing the same thing attempting to kind of just recreate a very simple clean little detail under that window.

Okay. So that was my next question. Originally that was wrought wrought iron and you can see underneath the landing even though it's you know it's not a Juliet balcony or anything it's just decorative. You know they had some where the rot curled back on itself. So holding that up what you're showing is just you know a pretty much more modernistic look at that if we can as closely as possible.

I know that they're now making aluminum that is from a corrosion standpoint will be better than rot, but it actually is extruded so that it will match rot as far as size and detailing to that not not perfectly, but Sure. That that be highly considered. And we need to probably get a detail in the record Okay. Of what that's actually gonna be because right now it's it's not clear.

Sure. We we can provide that.

Tile you're replacing that. So on the original you show where you see where on the rake where it comes down, they folded that tile especially on the gable. I'm not seeing that on what you're proposing. That's a really important detail on the front facade.

Can

we get that changed?

Yes. Yes. I will say that that I personally do these little three d exteriors and that is really tricky to do in three d which is why it's not shown. But that's the intent, is to treat that edge because there is essentially zero overhang on these gable ends. You know, it it it is a turned tile. That that's kind of

Yeah. Well, they just turn it

down on the rig.

Fold it down. So I mean, your west elevation, that's where you need to show it.

The

renderings, I can find differences when I look at the elevation and your renderings. Elevations are the record. Okay. So if we can show that tile folding down on the eave. Sure.

Especially on historic broad gable, offset gable is going to be needed. So it'd be really nice if those historic awnings could come back just to to throw that out there. Those were really nice because those windows were so tall and those awnings really draped down beautifully and I love how they did it originally. Just to put

had that out there. The same question of dealing with a house like this and we put awnings on it. It's just unbelievably the difference in the light quality of the house without awnings. I'm sure that windows could be tinted some in the front or something like that but the amount of light coming in from these tall windows and I'm sure the house has a 10 foot ceilings in it and every.

Probably is, I think it's their 14 at least.

Yeah, and the living space, ceilings are, yeah, it's a double height space essentially. Yes, is.

So just to throw that

out, there's

not a requirement but man those were I've really loved how they did that originally. So the new wood door shows I assume that's a glazing window

in it? Yes.

What is the material of that new door?

The the material would be it's just it's going to be a sapela mahogany door with a or it will be a solid wood door. Sometimes, sapela mahogany, which is our intended material for most of these custom front entry doors that we do, and they're in a wood shop here in town and they're gorgeous and they're beautiful and they last forever. Sometimes mahogany is not the best color or not the best material, specific wood species. We have swapped Sapela out for different wood species before. But that is the design intent.

This is a custom wood entry door. And you're right, with a clear impact glass glazing in the right there at the top.

Yeah. It's unfortunately the original 1926 images because it was recessed.

It was recessed originally.

You can't make out anything. No. But that being said, there's plenty of examples. Next door neighbor has one.

Yeah.

I have one, you know, that that if we can just match that detailing to the original doors would be preferred to try and restore that. Sorry, And I'm sorry to have this is have one side. You need to get it right.

A side question, John.

Yes.

In your looking at the house and going through it back several years ago, we had a house on the North Side Of Ponce De Leon that was done. And when they got into it, have you checked for termites, for any wood rot or anything else? Remember that one we had that they got into it and by the chimney, I mean, they had to rebuild that whole section of the house. Is it is it should be in very good shape with the wood they use at

that point? It is in good shape. I will say I've had this discussion with the owner multiple times that even though it appears to be in perfect shape, once you remove some original plaster off the interior, that's when you've especially below and don't look at the roof either. You look at the wood directly underneath the windows, and that's where the rod is. And so I can almost guarantee that at some point it's experienced some termite damage and probably some rod under the windows and that is par for the course.

One of our one of the ways that we will have to install these windows in the original walls is to John's point, trying to get the proportion of those right. You can't really get those windows as big as they were without reframing the openings. We'll probably have to reframe the openings anyway to remove some rotted wood and that sort of thing. You are prepared for this? Yes, yes. Unfortunately, it's Well, hate to get into it.

Thank you.

Any other questions from the Board?

Yes, I'm still going. Okay. I'm

Sorry, John.

That's okay. Powder coated aluminum privacy gate door, it shows that from a visual standpoint as being wood, but you're telling us that that's metal?

In the privacy wall?

Yes.

Yes. Yes. The design of that gate is to sort of play off of the design of the front entry door, but the intent as it sits now is for that to be a metal gate.

Okay.

I'm also not, you know, married to that either.

If it is a metal gate then it would be detailed and shown to be wood. Is that what I'm assuming by what you're representing?

No. No. I don't think it's trying to mimic itself as wood. I think it's it's meant to look like a metal gate.

Okay. But I mean you can see where it looks like board on board.

Those are just vertical pickets, guess if we're looking at the same elevation.

So that is something you're seeing through?

Yes.

Because to me it looks solid.

It's not solid. As of now, it's not the intent is not for that to be solid but to be metal vertical pickets.

Okay. Probably going to need some more clarity on that because you're going to have some crossbars likely in the actual detailing of it. So it's not going to look like this in the end product. So I think at this point is unclear. Okay. From at least from my standpoint. Sure. Those are tiles capping that same garden wall. Is that what you intend there?

It's just along that front entry. Yeah, just along that front portion of it. Okay.

I need a note on that Okay. Calling those specifics out. The roof beyond on the addition on that same side, there's what seemed to be little brackets. What are those exactly on that second story up at the eve?

Oh, the intent of those, I think they're expressed in more detail on the new addition. However the existing house has small exposed tails in the, on the non gable ends where there is a roof overhang, there are small exposed tails. I don't have a great picture of those, not in my presentation of those exposed tails. That the intent would be for those, for the new addition to have small exposed roof tails to kind of play off of the existing house, not at a different scale or at be expressed more expressive, more of, playing off of that existing house.

Okay. So that's a gable and there on that side facing south. Probably going to need to because you'll see that from the street. We'll need to see get that better detail and add a detail to the set on on what that is. Okay.

On the east elevation, decorative is the intent? Mhmm. Okay. They look really small. Is are they tucked up on the eave and they come down?

The intent is for them to be small. The the existing tails on that house which obviously they're real, they're not faux tails, they're they're real tails. But they're about you know roughly, they're more often than twenty four six inches in-depth and they do not extend, you know, past the fascia. You know they're tucked underneath there. So the intent was to mimic the size and exposure and frequency of the existing tails.

Okay. And again, I guess you'll include we'll need that detail as well because they look just like flush finish.

Yes And they were turned in.

How much they're coming out and those are all things that

We'll detail those too. Matter. Yeah.

The brackets on the extension that you're doing, I guess that's a shower on the 2nd Floor. So what are what materials that?

Those will be done out of wood as well.

Okay. We need we'll need those called out. Mhmm. They look a little small at this point. Are they decorative? Or

They're decorative. Yeah.

Okay. And then how are they gonna be painted the paint color because everything else is?

They'll be the soffit and trim color. They'll be the kind of darker that the soffits as they are now are sort of a dark brown color. The I think it's a Sherwin Williams French Roast is the color. And so the intent is that those brackets would be that color, the French Roast color.

Okay. It looks like you're trying to mimic the profiles that we have to see historically Yes. On The pool deck material, we do have a section on on pools and it kind of ask about that material. Is there any intent on that right now?

We have not I've not discussed with the owner the specific material for the pool deck. Not yet.

We'll need to list that as well as it needs to correspond to our requirement.

Okay.

The other comment and you know this is a big, it's the big, the addition is much larger than the original house. So to Harry's comment, having that break in stucco finish, I know I'm under the assumption that that original finish is not real when you zoom in on the original image, 1926, it's smooth Mhmm. Is my take on it if I were to investigate of looking at zooming in on it. And now we have a highly stifle finish on So I think maybe returning the addition to the original finish which is counterintuitive to what you should be doing might be nice Because that it's an artist hand in finishing stock out and to try and get someone today to match that not necessarily going to be really easy to do. So maybe just choosing a completely different finish so it really stands out visually separate.

Yes.

As Harry suggested. Yes. I think it would be best historically from a historical perspective.

Okay.

The chimney, the original plaster decoration there, you're showing it, is that existing to remain?

It is.

Okay. Let's anything that's existing to remain, especially on the elevation, if we could have a note to that so we know clearly what's being modified and what's not Okay. Would be year. Then second of elevation, I don't have the original. How is that treated now on the original?

Right now there's an existing trim piece around the just the front entry and then on the side there it's just a stucco. And Stucco return, the intent is to just not add additional trim or just to leave it stucco return on that side door and maintain the existing trim on that front door, the street facing front door.

Okay. Black finish is for the metal doors? Mhmm. Okay. And that is being used on the replacement window units as well?

Yes. Okay.

I think Thank that's

you. Very well done. Any other questions from the board? Seeing none, we will move on. Is there any audience participation today?

No, I do not have public comment.

Okay. Thank you very much. Do we have any additional staff comments?

Okay. So I just want to go over kind of an overview of what you've mentioned, John, and what we've heard from the Board here. I may have missed something. I think everyone is going to have to relisten to the meeting to catch everything, but let me go over what I heard. So I heard some stuff on the window size on the north elevation, possibly that those were a little bit larger in the historical photos and you wanted to see that reflected on the drawings.

I heard ventilation detail. I heard edge of tile unfolding down on the roof there. Detail railing on the front window. Awnings, you said not a requirement but something that you thought was flattering in the original historic photos. Clarity on the gate in the front and the material that that would be because you didn't believe the drawings showed that the intent of using like a wrought iron or something that was open.

A note on the garden wall, bracket details, a note on the chimney detail to remain as the original, just a note on the plan set there, East elevation tail detailing?

Yes, that's consistent for the whole new project, but that is detailed currently.

Okay. And bracket extension called out and detailed?

Yes.

Okay. And then I did just want to kind of make just a general note keeping in mind that the addition in the rear of this project in the past Happe has not given a ton of comments on something that is rear facing that we're not seeing from the street or the side. I just want to make sure that we're consistent with that and that the changes that we're making are we're talking about what would be visible from the front of the street.

Yeah, love that for the most part.

Okay. Great. Okay, I'll let you guys go from there but it does kind of sound like this would be a continuance based on the number of comments.

Yes, I mean either it depends on the board, I guess the board's opinion.

And that's all I have for my staff comments.

Thank you.

Any response from the agent?

I think that a continuance isn't necessary. Think with the modifications to the drawings.

Well, let him talk for

little I'm sorry.

I think that we would, as the agent, I think we would request that this be supplemental information that we can provide in lieu of a continuance because that allows us to continue forward with the project. The continuance would kind of prevent us from it would put some burden on the owner, not allowing certain other aspects that are not affected by some of these additional details, whereas we could provide some of these additional details with supplemental information. So that would be my only request to avoid the continuance.

Thank you.

Well, let's wait till Roger says.

Okay. Madam Chair, may provide you may. Some Yes, you're talking about continuance. There are quite a few comments here that I think are relevant. Typically we would list those, get those back to the applicant, they would come and see you again if it was continuance. However, the board also has the option of allowing staff to confirm that these items have been addressed and have been provided. And if we have any question to that effect, we would certainly contact the chair. In this case, it would be Ms. Trammell to not that guy. We would certainly contact Ms.

Trammell to confirm that we're looking at the right things based on the information that we received today. So it does put quite a burden on the applicant for continuance especially now since we have one meeting a month. So I would ask the board to consider that in addition to that continuance option.

Okay. Thank you, Roger. And what does the board think?

I think that given that we have a historical resource manager based on his commentary and his review is going to be attuned to handle the review of the items that we've asked, the changes, the stipulations that we've asked for. I feel confident in the work of the firm that they want to do it right. So my tendency is to rely on staff review of what we've asked for, would be my opinion.

Anyone else?

I agree.

Okay, very In good that case, I will go ahead and close the public hearing and I will welcome a motion.

I'll make a motion based on the preservation presentation and with the drawing detail modifications requested by staff that the Historic and Architectural Preservation Board move to approve application number PLR260059.

Yeah, we have a second. Okay, thank you.

My only discussion point would be that the stipulated points raised during the hearing and agreed to by the applicant be followed specifically as part of that motion.

Anything down here? So you want wording added?

No. I mean, that was more of a general statement that the record be reviewed as far as what those stipulations are for approval specifically that they be followed would be my caveat to agreeing to that.

Okay. Any other discussion?

Well, think the staff went over.

She Yes, listed and all she did a great job and I think they have everything.

Just The

motion then that I just clearly have to state it clearly. I think it's just that the record of commentary of the Board's review be followed as far as what are stated stipulations were with it.

Any The

only thing I would add just is that based on the motion with the that's first all the stipulations before staff review. Any questions come to Chair Trammell after the fact so that we don't have to continue, we don't have to bring it back. Yes. Yes.

Okay. Any other discussion? In that case we should go to a vote.

Mr. Watkins? Yes. Ms. Trammell?

Yes.

Mr. Barrack?

Yes.

Mr. Green?

Yes. And

Chair Bibby is abstaining.

Okay, thank you. And the motion passes. Okay. I get to carry this one too? Okay. Okay. The next thing coming up is a design alternative for more than 75% of primary color coverage on PLAR26-one Hundred And 5 -four 17 Nassau Street. Staff is Brittany Smith. The agent is Sam Hardy for the BB Design Studio and the owners are Samuel and Anna McLean Joynson. This is a quasi judicial hearing.

It has been advertised. The top one or the bottom one? Okay. This is to certify that the public hearing for this petition was appropriately advertised on 03/21/2026 as required by the City of Venice Land Development Code. Proof of publication is on file in the planning and zoning office. Thank you. And therefore we will open the public hearing. Do we have any speaker cards?

Yes, Vice Chair I have those filled out.

Okay. Do we hear them now or later?

We don't need public comment. I do have the speakers' cars completed.

Okay. Thank you. Mr. Attorney?

Yes. Again, confirming since this again is BB Design Studio that Chair Bemi per conflict ventures requirements will be abstaining from this discussion and voting on this in the gap as passed and chair has passed to Chair Trammell for the purposes of hearing. But otherwise, does anyone else have on this Board have a conflict of interest in this matter?

No.

Okay. Let the record reflect that there has been stated no conflicts of interest other than Chair Bibi. And does anyone on this Board have any ex parte communication that they wish to bring forth for the record? No. Please let the record reflect that the Board has indicated no ex parte communication.

Okay, thank you. We're ready for the staff report.

Yes. So for the record, Britney Smith Planner for the City of Venice. So we're looking here at PLAR2610 for 417 Nassau St. This is a design alternative. The design alternative that's being requested is for Chapter 87, Section 10.4.82 on color coverage.

So we have a specific requirement in our code for color coverage. It's up to 75% of the wall services must be one approved color, 20% must be a secondary corresponding color and 5% must be a corresponding approved accent color. The design alternative is of course an option on the table for the applicant to be to have different percentages of approved colors approved. In this case, if you look at the color rendering here, the primary color would exceeding the 75% of the wall surface being one approved color. So that is why this is here in front of you today as a design alternative.

That pretty much concludes the staff presentation. It's very simple, very straightforward. As I mentioned in the last presentation when we were looking at the site development plan, there was another design alternative that came in after the noticing period and that would be on the wall height. So that will be before you in front of the next meeting. So right now we're just simply looking at this, the color design alternative. Are there any questions for me?

I don't see any. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Mr. Okay. Hardy, are you ready to make your presentation?

The record, Sam Hardy with BB Design Studio Architects. I would keep my presentation very short and sweet. I think where this code makes the most sense is when there's very definitive places to place an accent color. And then actually majority of these more these nineteen twenty six homes, they are more simple in their massing or I would say not overly decorative. So not a lot of trims and bases and that sorts thing. It's more large walls of one color. And so being consistent with that,

we're back proposing half of that is the building that I had is identical to this. There was no banding on the building, no trim around the windows. It was a basic, very basic design of that particular year.

So that drives the request.

There's

we don't want to create areas to place an accent color or just let it be what it's trying to be.

Was there any consideration for trying to meet the requirements in the new addition? Can see maybe in the historic portion of it. I mean, yes, it would appear that there might be other options to try to meet the requirements and still leave the existing house alone.

Possibly. I think when you start varying color a lot, I think you can when it's not being applied when accent color is not being applied to decorative features or trims or bandings and that sort of thing which I don't know but I would presume where a portion of this code comes from is the accent colors along those types of features. And so in an effort not to make the exterior busy or overly complicated, no, we would like to go with a consistent color sort of throughout, which is relatively consistent I would say in VHP with residential homes. Commercial is a different animal. But on a lot of the end of this Venice historic precedent, a lot of those nineteen twenty six homes are a majority one color.

Would say most of them are majority one color.

Our interest is in the front of the building and some of the sides of the building but our interest is not in the back or the rear of the building, it's how it appears, how they built it at that time and how they painted it and decorated it at that time and this definitely fits that design.

Any other questions for Mr. Hardy?

It's a lot. Just being one color when you look at your perspective elevation, it's a lot of that same color. The chimney is a design feature which separates completely from the building.

Mhmm.

You could use it there. Your pullout on the 2nd Floor for on the new addition for the shower, you could use it there. The garden wall on the other side, you could use it there. So, I mean, you could introduce some interest by color Mhmm. Into the project over rather than just using one paintbrush and doing everything. Would be my inclination.

I hate to bring it up again but audience would change the front of the building dramatically.

Yeah. That would help as well for sure. And then I think as on the rear elevation, it could help a lot, especially with those recesses

Sure.

Pulling it in there would be my aesthetic Got it.

Any other questions for Mr. Hyde? Thank you, sir.

Actually, one more. I mean, as this all colors could something that can easily be changed. They may decide two years down the road they hate it and wanna do something completely different, which every owner has the right to do. Sure. I would say are they pushing the owners pushing for everything to be the same and that's why this is being requested?

I

don't wanna disregard their interest as my reason for asking.

I well, the the owners are here. I would let them, you know

I mean, in their commentary they said, we just want low maintenance. We don't have to fool with painting. We just want everything one color. That would be a statement coming from them that I could buy into

We your have had discussions about color. Most of them have been related to this specific elevation, the way that it appears on the street facing. It's currently one color. I think it was originally one color. I don't think the fireplace was an accent color.

I don't see a ton of examples of introducing accent colors on architectural elements such as fireplace unless they were a different unless it was a material change. And that's just my personal opinion. If it was a material change or bringing in colors through material changes, then I think that's possibly more justified. But if it's stucco and stucco, I would say versus owner driven versus firm driven, I think we were more our opinion was more to try to maintain a consistent color. The specific color selection was from the owner and it was from the list of approved colors I believe.

It's a

I mean I

don't know the name of the color off the top of my head but.

Off the top of my head a lot of your firm's projects in the past have used color very well and they've taken advantage of the three colors. I think by far really nice similar hues but variances in the paint This

color is actually muted. The original color when I stripped back was white. And you can imagine what the front of that building would look like if it was all white.

It was like charcoal and there were there

were I

think some of those

That was a later color.

Okay. It is really difficult. I'm a sucker for white. Do like white. A lot of our buildings and actually it's nuance is our kind of color of choice which we use a lot.

But that being said, from that nineteen twenties photo which it looks black or charcoal, I guess some of the, you know, some things that I've heard is that it that that house was actually probably, more of a red or an earth tone and in a black and white photo that looks black. And so that's that's kind of more driving this deeper tone of color but obviously a printout on a computer screen is not as we all know not really representative of the actual color in person. And so we do attempt to use color well and pick out good colors.

Any other questions from the Board? Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Audience participation?

I do not have anyone signed up to speak.

Thank you. Any additional comments from the staff? Okay, seeing none, any further response from the applicant? No. You.

Okay.

In that case, I will declare the public hearing closed. And I will contemplate a motion. Madam Chair. Based on the presentation, the Historic and Architectural Preservation Board moves to approve application number PLAR 20 six -one 105. Second. I

would say that you know I think there are opportunities to use our this is an objective and a subjective code, part of our code very much so. I think the reason we, by my opinion, we included it is so that you don't get developers just broad brushing new residences and they all look the same with very little color interest. So I think that's why it's there and I think why it's important. So I would say that we consider denying this request because I think there's opportunities to utilize it.

Okay, I've got a motion and a second. I've had a board member request denial. Mr. Attorney, is there anything I should be considering here?

Right now we're in discussion. So if we're done with discussion then it's a vote.

In that case we will move on to the vote.

Ms. Moore? Yes. Mr. Barrack? No. Mr. Green? No. Ms. Trammell? No. Mr. Noes.

Motion does not pass, so we need to state motion is not approved at that point if it's not a majority.

Okay, so basically we have a tie?

Well, a tie. A tie is not an approval.

But it's not being approved, you have to say why it is not approved.

Because ultimately we're going have to reduce it to an order and state the reasons why it was and say why it was not approved.

It was alternate. They were providing a difference. You know they were arguing the case for a difference of not following their requirement on their that was a voluntary basis. So why do we have to defend that?

Because when it's not approved, they have their appeal right. So it has to be reduced to an order stating what the reasons are so that they want to appeal it that they can. So it has to be done.

I thought what we're voting on is not necessarily the color but the amount of the color.

Right?

Yeah. I mean they're voluntary saying we'd like to do it all in one color. Okay.

So you're voting, in other words, you're voting no on the fact that you don't you think you might have less of this base color?

Yes, they're not following the ordinance

for how You're not it's voting on the actual color itself, you're just voting on the percentage of the color. Correct. So the contract will have to come back and do something to change that amount of color then, right?

Yes, I mean that would be again, I think we would in our motion would be that the applicants propose an alternative that matches the ordinance and, you know have staff review it. I don't necessarily would think we would need to look at it again, my opinion.

I think Roger would like to weigh in on this.

Well, in coordination with the city attorney but I believe there's been a motion and there was a tie vote so the motion is denied. So the design alternative is denied. At this point, the applicant has the option to meet the code and come back with colors presented to staff that are compliant with the color palette and then they will not have to come back to the board. If they decide in some way shape or form they'd like to come back with a design alternative of a different nature, then that's their option to do that if they still don't meet the code. But at this point, they've failed on the design alternative.

So if they present colors that are percentages are compliant with our code and that meet the color palette, then they will not have to come back to the board. We can confirm that at a staff level.

Now this color appears on our color chart though, doesn't it?

My understanding is that it does.

Okay. So in essence, I guess they don't like the color but in essence they're saying that there's too much of it.

They're not meeting the code as far as the percentage of the color. Right. They can adjust their color palette to meet that code and they can still use this as one of the colors but they're gonna have to come up with another way to meet the percentages and have another color as well. And if that color is also in our color palette, then we can approve that at a staff level, would not require board approval.

I'm still confused. Well, let's just

say today they could come to our department and ask if they want to paint their home and we would look at the colored numbers and make sure the percentages work and they would be they would not have to come to the board. They're in the same situation now. They tried to not comply with the code, they got denied, Now they're gonna have to either comply or decide to come back to you with another

proposal. So

they can stick basically, they can stick with what they got. They're just gonna change it up to meet the 20% and staff will approve it.

They would put some of another color on the house. Yes.

Okay. Does that require a specific action from this board to say go for it, but we can just polite consensus?

It's pretty much their decision at this point how they decide to move forward.

Okay. Thank you.

I understand

that. Okay. In which case, for today, is there any further

Attorney Lewis do we need anything further? Do they need a denial motion or?

No. At this point it was approved so we don't need a denial motion. But again I guess state for the record the idea it's based on the stated reasons are that since it was didn't they denied the alternative they denied the design alternative and the specific reasoning was I just want to make sure that's clear. Because I want that stated that was the basis of the because they wanted the colors to meet to match code, correct? Correct?

The percentage.

You wanted the percentage. The color matched the percentage, not The The percentage, percentage,

The

in the code, correct.

Correct. Okay.

So we don't have to take any further action on that. That's just going to roll forward now from this. Thank you. Let's move on. Is there any board discussion to be brought forward on anything today? Seeing nothing, we're

more Mr. Attorney, as there has been a motion and it's been voted on, we are now out of the discussion about this particular house?

Correct. So

it's back to you.

Back to me. I don't think I've ever bitten my lip longer than that, this meeting. And I I guys, you did a great job. But I will just say, this is an area, this code, seven ten point four that we were going to get back into because it's confusing. It's not It was written by Kimley Horn and Associates in a different way than I remember.

I believe I brought it up, as an alternative on commercial structures to use color to make a better building, make portions of the building stand out better. And so we need to revisit this because to me this is not clear. And in this in many cases like historic buildings, it wasn't used used this way. So I thought this this this was a alternative that could be done, but the way they wrote it and codified this, they said it has to be 20%. I understood it at the time as it could be or it can be.

So I think it it caused us a lot of confusion and and, I just, I think you did the right thing, but, we'll see what what shakes out after after this. But this is one of those things where we are still dealing and talked about with the mayor today. This is exactly what I was anticipating prior to this meeting that we would need to address. And the next design alternative is that also something that doesn't make sense in our code from my perspective. You all have a different opinion maybe, but So these are these are how we get our LDR to work better for us and for the community.

So, we'll be revisiting that, but as it is, I'm really glad to see that this house passed and it'll be great. This is going to be one of the gems of the historic renovations in the town, no doubt in my mind. So, thank you for your deliberation. Is there any other discussion that anyone has today? I know that before I turn that over, we are going to be addressing color with a design professional for our color palette because we have an outdated color palette at this moment.

I think applicants want to try different things, which is great. We want to be consistent with BHP. So, that is something we're going to stress in the next few meetings is this color issue. But anyone else have anything before us today? Good meeting. A lot of good discussion.

Legislatively, we have our hands. On our back where we can't change anything until the state

removes that.

We can't change anything, but I think we should have the discussion, about how color is used and maybe it's going to take some research a little bit on our part. We've we've tried, in our office, to do things that were so subtle that most people wouldn't even recognize that there's multiple colors on a building. But but with lighting and the way that the sun hits the building, it really does change the effect of the building. But it's it's a fussy little thing, color, you know? We all know that.

It's a difficult thing, and especially for the general public, keeping up current. We'll get there. But thank you. Roger, do you have a comment?

Well, think your agenda that has been approved by counsel, I think one of the items in there was that we continually will analyze the code and try to clarify it and make it better. So I think that's an option that we have. As far as what Mr. Barrack is referring to the Senate Bill 180 which is not changing.

Not changed.

Not going away. So we wouldn't in any changes or any proposed changes to our code or our comp plan, we have to make a determination as to whether it's more burdensome or prohibitive and if it is, that's something we cannot do and that would be something that once we determine what we're going do, would certainly get with the city attorney and make a determination on that. So not necessarily would it be something we couldn't do, but based on that statute, we may not be able to. So we always have that in the back of our mind at this point.

And I did present it in front of City Council that those were the focuses for this year, the items that we did not accomplish last year was one, to revise the color palette, update it, and two, continue to look at the LDRs. Mhmm. To to look at areas that we find during our work as a board that is is not what we thought when we approved the LDR. And I agree with you. If it's not more burdensome, then it doesn't fall into that. And we should be able to adjust some things just to make it easier process for applicants and the board to review.

If it's easier, we might be in good shape.

If it's

not, then we're probably in

tough Easier is better. Thank you.

We do have a few things, Harry and I, I know that you all broached the subject of the local register forum and I know Harry wants to talk a little bit about that as well.

Okay. So at your last meeting, there was discussion about having a representative of this board be at the local register forum. But from the discussion that you all had with Chair Vivi not here for that meeting, you all elected to wait to this meeting to see if you want to have a representative of this Board officially there, as a HAPB representative, for the program that we'll be putting together. So I guess, Chair, maybe I'm questioning if, the Board could maybe select a representative who can then participate in the program.

Okay. I think it's a good idea. I don't know if anybody has expressed interest in that. Has anyone? No?

Actually out

of town.

You're out of town? I

talked to I had done it last year and I was I'd be fine to do it again if the Board

was remember John, you did do that last year. So are you here or available? Yes. I mean, think if

I think it's important that we have someone there.

Just a representative and yeah.

I mean, we are should be as a historic board side, we should always be advocating for Right. Local

Well, if there's no reason I mean if John's volunteering, I think we should do that. Do we need to vote on that or I don't think so.

I think just consensus maybe? Consensus is fine.

Consensus is fine.

And I always bring it up I always like to have one person there from the board because you never know what's going to come up.

They can answer Well, that's it's good. It's good to do that. And thankfully, and John has a lot of knowledge. So I think that's in that regard, we we couldn't pick anybody better. So that's great, John. Thank you for volunteering to do that. My pleasure. That's good.

A couple more things that I have and then I don't know Roger has anything more. But also too, at the April 28 City Council meeting, there will be a proclamation for preservation month. So again, here too, either Chair Mebe or if there's another representative from this board who would like to attend the city council meeting to accept the proclamation from city council.

I could do that. I'll just verify my schedule, but I should be fine. And

then just one last thing that I have is just update about the Florida Historic Resources Grant. The Edgewood and Seaboard survey is still on schedule. I had an update meeting with the team last week, and they are still a go for presenting their results at your June meeting. So they will be here to talk about their findings from doing the Edgewood and Seaward survey. Also, too, you all had, selected to have the next survey done for the Vineetillo Park neighborhood.

Typically, the grant application process opens April 1. The application process has yet to open from the state. There has been no explanation as to why the grant program has not started yet. So we are keeping an eye on that.

Okay. Thank you.

Just a couple of things. We do have an application for our next meeting and obviously there may be a design alternative from this one as well that you heard today. You will have your next meeting, you will be having a meeting. The other thing I want to mention is that as you're aware, we recently had your recommendation and council's approval, the Beach Pavilion has been put on the local register, which we're really excited about because we continue to get more properties on there, so we're happy about this one. In our minds, this is a big one, Obviously, an icon of the city.

So Harry and I have been talking about, we want to have some type of a ceremony. Think it's going to be low key. We're looking maybe toward the May, once again, historic preservation month to have it as part of that. So I just wanted to give you a heads up to that. I don't think it's going be anything really big but we're going to do some type of an unveiling at least of the plaque that we have made for that to be on the local register. So I just wanted to kind indicate that to you as well. And with that, I have no more items to discuss.

Okay. Is that something with regard to the pavilion that staff would be able to I mean obviously that might be something that makes the paper with a small ceremony indicating what ability the city has to use funds to rehabilitate that. Because it's on the local register, it's part of the story, think.

Yeah. I know that the I know Public Works has a capital improvement project to address the roof replacement on that structure next So that's going to be a big part of it. I believe they are seeking some type of funding and Harry probably would know more about funding.

Yes. So again, the well, the surveys that we do are part of what is called the Small Matching Grant Program from the state. They also have a historic preservation grant program for larger projects such as things like roof replacement for the Beach Pavilion. Time wise, because it's, what, fiscal year '27, that's I think, Public Works is interested in doing that. So, that would be this grant cycle where, I would be working with Public Works for a grant application.

In this case, we would the city would have to require or or provide a match for whatever funds were requested in the grant. But like the small matching grant, the grant application process has not opened yet, and there's been no explanation as to why that's happening.

Oh, okay. I was thinking if you get publicity for the fact that we have it's on the local register, it makes sense that it might help us to get funds both nationally or whatever, state or national funds to do that work because it is it's in desperate need of it. It's it needs work. It's been through a lot lately. And and, so if there's something that we can do as a board to recommend that we continue that for funding, that

would be

great. You're already on it.

Yes. We're already looking into that. And I'll also add that we will be this week digitizing the original architectural drawings for the building So that the company, the firm that Public Works is going to be hiring to do the roof work that they will have digital copies of all the original blueprints.

Okay. Sounds great.

To piggyback on Mark's idea, maybe we extend an invitation to Venice Historical Society and VHP, maybe they have a little shindig as that they get together. I know that they've been doing pop ups at different historical sites as far as their agenda schedule. Maybe they consider that as, you know, one that we can it would be nice to interact with those folks since they help support historic preservation in the city.

Yeah. We can we can invite some of the other historic preservation groups in the city just like how we're going to be doing that for the local register form.

Okay.

Thank you. Anything else today? All right. Well, seeing none, we are adjourned. Thank you.