City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome here everyone. Welcome to the Tuesday, April 28th city council regular meeting. Mr. McGomery, roll call, please. Yes, mayor. Mayor Gilman here. Mayor Prom Mang here. Council member Rule here. Council member Lang here. Council member Whitman here. Thank you. And would you please lead us in the pledge? Yes, mayor. Welcome honorable council, members of the community. Please rise as you are able. Ready? Begin. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Any changes to the agenda?

No. I'll move to approve it.

Yeah. Second. Any objections? Wonderful. Okay. And then we will go to first we have one presentation from interface 211 Ventura County. Welcome. Thank you. Okay. Good evening, uh, mayor, council members.

Hello.

Uh, thank you for giving me thank you for giving 211 the opportunity to present to you today. Uh I am Gerardo Gonzalez, community information associate director uh with Interface 211 and I appreciate your time. Uh 211 uh Ventura County operates as a program under Interface Children and Family Services. Uh we serve as a countywide information and referral hub uh linking residents to more than 2,000 health and human uh services and resources throughout the region. Uh last year in 2025 uh we received over 18,000 calls and text countywide and this year we celebrate over 20 years of providing 211 services to the community. Uh 211 represents just one part of interface's comprehensive mission. Interface runs 30 distinct programs spanning six core departments as shown here. Uh this network allows us to connect callers directly to other interface program u programs when it's appropriate. Uh 211 stands as the county's most extensive information and referral resource for residents seeking help. Our team assists callers in locating and accessing the services they require from housing to food programs, mental health to legal aid. Uh we're we're available 247 uh every day of the year. Accessibility is central to our mission. Uh the residents can connect with us in three simple methods. That's by calling 211, texting their zip code to 898211 or visiting our website at 2011ventura.org. Our services are free and confidential. Uh in 2025, we took 282 calls from Ohio residents. Uh let me give you some context around these numbers. So about 65% of our Ohio callers reached out to us more than once, which means that the actual number of unique individuals is lower than the 282. Uh what this shows us is that residents trust 211 211 enough to come back when they need

additional uh support. Looking at those who we served, uh 99 were first-time callers, 10 were families with children under five, 21 calls pertain to someone who reported they were at risk of losing housing at the time of the call, and 27 calls pertain to someone who reported they were currently experiencing housing when they when they reached out. Behind each of these calls uh is a real person uh navigating a difficult situation. For example, uh we received a call from an Ohio resident, let's call him Michael, who had been caring for his father uh with cancer. His father had just passed away a few weeks prior. Michael had put his career on hold to be a caregiver and now he was facing eviction because he'd fallen behind on rent while caring for his his father. He was actively looking for work but needed help uh immediately. Uh when Michael called 211, our navigator connected him to a rental assistance program, uh linked him to employment services to help him get back to work and provided grief counseling resources to help him process the loss of his father while dealing with his housing situation. 211 is here to help residents navigate multiple challenges at once. Ohigh's uh top three needs within the context of 211, these 282 calls. Um, we're housing, individual, family, and community support, and income support. Uh, this tells us that some Ohio residents, at least those who are calling 211, are facing housing challenges while needing, uh, broader support systems and economic, uh, stability. Uh, this slide here shows how Ohigh compares to other cities in the county. So, housing is the top need across every community uh, for those who call 211. So, this is a a countywide challenge, you know, not unique to to Ohigh. You know, while cities like Oxnard see income support as

their second highest need and TOC's mental health, Ohigh here, uh, Ohio's second highest need is individual, family, and community support, followed by income support. So, these encompass services like low-income housing, rent payment assistance, emergency housing, the area agency on aging, services like case management, uh, you know, holiday gifts and toys, you know, during during the holidays. Uh and then just lastly uh you know beyond information and referral we offer several specialized programs uh to residents over the phone. So for example through VITA we offer free tax preparation. We offer public safety power shut off case management. So when PSPS events happen, we can support uh residents uh during the events with things like uh lodging, transportation, portable backup batteries, food, all at no cost to residents. This is in partnership with Southern California Edison. Uh Ventur versus Hate uh assists uh residents with hate incident reports and ECM provides case management for eligible Gold Coast Health Plan members. Thank you uh for your time and for giving 211 this opportunity. If you or anyone you know needs assistance, uh please reach out by calling, texting, or visiting our website. Thank you so much.

Can I ask you two questions? Thank you for coming. Um would you mind going back two slides? Yeah. Is it where we saw that this slide right here? Yeah. So the 538 calls, that's over what period of time? That's over a period of one year. That's just the one year. I'm sorry. It's it's it should have been 238. I apologize. That's okay. Over one year. 2025. Correct. Understood. Okay, got it. And then um my next question is, have you seen a a change in the trend at all? In other words, more or less calls over time and are we seeing it get worse or better? Any thoughts? Yeah, so we've seen an increase of calls over time, but it's been steady the last couple years. So, we really appreciate that we could come out and um you know, remind the community that we're here. Um

Okay, any other questions? Yeah, I just have one quick question. with those people that reach out to you, do you keep a log like how many that you were actually able to help? I'm sure some people their situation changes or somebody can, you know, help them. But if you keep that Yes. So, so one part of our work is that we do follow up with vulnerable callers, especially those who we believe will need just extra support. Um, unfortunately, oftentimes we don't get to see um, you know, what happens thereafter. We we usually meet them in the middle. Uh but yeah, we've we've learned of plenty success stories. So, great. Thank you. And I I heard you say you have a partnership with Southern California Edison, but how else are you funded?

Yeah. So, we actually proudly serve uh over 32 counties in California. Okay. And we serve Lake Illinois, which is uh a suburb south of Chicago. So, through that and then through the special projects um that we that we uh that we offer through the phone. Okay. And then of and then in part cities uh in part some cities throughout the county uh support us as well. Any other questions? Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. Yes. Thanks. Okay, moving on. Um any commission reports? No, mayor. None submitted. Okay, city manager report.

Uh yes, mayor. Just a few brief items tonight. Um just want to let the council the community know that we're in the midst of conducting accountant interviews. We had the first last week. We'll be doing second interviews this week. And with that, also, we're welcoming back Leah Palmer, our accounting manager, who is back this week from Maternity Leap. So, we're very excited about that.

Uh, switching gears, I want you and the community to know about an ebike safety and education event that's going on uh via the sheriff's department at Cersi Park uh May 6 at 6 PM. Multi-purpose room. We uh switching gears again, we're going to be reconvening the Ohigh Disaster Council. Um that's required by the code and that is something that's not been convened for the last couple of years. So we will be making sure the council and the community is aware of that. That's a Brown Act meeting and so we will get that date out here shortly. And then lastly, um we are recruiting uh for lifeguard and w leader and we need for both of those. So, I just want to make the community aware. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Just a quick followup. Um, as I recall, you said that the city would do training at at some point for those positions or or No, you're looking for for lifeguard. Yeah, for lifeguard. Okay. It's good to know that if your interest is there, the city can put you through training. Yeah. And we'll be bringing an item back to the council to increase the pay rate. So, if you see the flyer, it says, you know, anticipated to be this amount because we're going to be coming back before you report. Okay, great. Thank you. Thanks for the question.

Thank you. Okay. Um, we'll move on to public comments. I have two cards. Larry Stangle, please. And then Clay Creasy. Thank you. And there's Okay. Thank you. Welcome back, which has seemed like it's been forever. Um, nice to see you qualified for cert. Yay. Yay. Now everybody else can take it. Uh, and there are obviously more than 10 people here, so that's good. Maybe they'll keep coming. A couple of things. The campaign wars are about to start and it would be nice if people who mentioned things on the last campaign could put things on the agenda so we would already have them like videoing and audio of closed meetings because there's no way for anybody to find out if any if there are a Brown Act violation unless somebody reaches outside of the walls of quiet and tells anybody. And that doesn't happen because it's against the rules. So because now we have lawsuits and it goes on. Also, as part of the campaign, they said somebody wanted to have no serial monologues like we come up here, we talk three minutes and go sit down. We would like to have it on the agenda that we could have meetings maybe every week so people could have a dialogue with you rather than sit here and have you nod nicely or make faces or Mhm.

throw spitballs, whatever. And that's fine. I think it would be great. Just put it on the agenda so you can have the conversation. So if you want to do it, do it. Don't want to do it, get it done with, and voted for lawsuits. What would our budget be if we didn't have these lawsuits? A million dollars more here or there. Would that be good for a housing commission to keep tenants here? I know it's a million dollars isn't a lot of money, but when you're giving out hundreds, maybe it keeps somebody from having to get evicted. All right, I know it's nice to own real estate, but cities shouldn't own real estate. I'm sorry. All right, I love selling your buildings, but it's great doing it again. Uh the other side is if you have lawsuits that are self-inflicted are the people who have caused the self-infliction self-inflicted um penalized in any way. Don't want them don't want anybody thrown on their sword but some sort of penalty because our priorities are being avoided and can't be funded because of the legal bills. They've gone from almost nothing to a lot. And we have to have more tourists come to pay for the legal bills. I mean, it's just, you know, we got to do something because it's ridiculous. So, anyway, and any real estate deals, please make them public. What's going on with the OSD? Are we doing anything with them or not? Because I don't want to loan them money so we can get the rights to rent. Or do we own part of the housing? There are other ways. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Stangle. Clay Casy, please. And then Anita Cra. And then Alan Mintz, please.

Well, remind me not to follow Larry because he stole half my comments, Blair. Um, actually, uh, I didn't want to talk about the issue of dialogue versus serial monologue. Uh like many people, I was uh hopeful after the last election that we would be able to see a transition to a more healthy give and take of conversation back and forth. Uh but unfortunately we haven't done that. So we still have meetings every two weeks and it's serial monologue and I could come up here and tell you guys your hair is all on fire and you would just say thank you and I'd sit down. So, it would be great to be able to have a dialogue because there's a lot of things that are not necessarily obvious at first blush, but with mutual commitment to exploration can can become more um we can find areas of agreement, and that's what we're all looking for. Um, with serial monologue, uh, we have, unfortunately, the dynamic that, uh, somebody will say something, uh, that, um, may not actually be truthful, I hate to say, uh, and then somebody gets up and challenges it, but there's no back and forth. Uh, and and we have had, and we saw last meeting, or you saw, I wasn't here, but, uh, um, Ms. Rule, of course, uh, cast a vote with a the appraised gun to her head, having lamented various things that had been said in the past that weren't 100% true. And it would be great to be able to fret those things out in real time rather than have to let them fester for weeks or months or however long and then have to come to grips with them uh when it feels very um uncomfortable to do so. Uh the other thing I think is and uh Mayor Gilman you were pretty um vocal about this in the election to try to reduce

the dysfunctionality. Uh I think you said in the city council but you know we it's broader than the city council obviously because there are people in the community who feel very strongly about things. Uh dysfunction is not caused by disagreement. Uh disagreement is a fact of life. What causes dysfunction is our inability to mutually satisfy ourselves that we've been hurt. If I make a serial monologue here and then you just say thank you and I sit down, I don't really think I've been heard. Uh, and there's a good chance I haven't been heard because everybody's thinking about something else while some guy's rattling on for three minutes. So if we could all take a pledge to stick to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and listen with an open mind if somebody challenges our assertion of a truth, that will be a huge benefit and we will all feel a lot better in that scenario. Even though we may have some more difficult conversations, but at least we'll have conversations and that should be the objective of this city's governor. Thank

Thank you, sir. Anita Cra please and Alan Mintz and then Julie Tuite.

Good evening everyone. Um so my comment is on behalf of the United Democrats of the Ohio Valley where I serve as president. So I would just like to invite the community to a um talk by Tanya Parker. She is deputy director of the Ohigh Valley Land Conservancy and she will be speaking before us on May 7th at Oakrove School from 6 to 7:00 p.m. Everyone is invited. It's free. You don't have to be a club member. You don't have to be a Democrat to come. Our education is an outreach to the entire community. So Tanya will cover an overview of the consery, tell us about Rewildhigh, and the big gem is she's going to give us an update on Kenyarda larga um land purchase and what the plans and the um kind of new developments for that. So just to reiterate, Thursday, uh a week from this Thursday, 6 pm, Oakrove School, Tanya Parker, executive director, Ohigh Valley Land Conservancy. Everyone's welcome. Thank you. Alan Mintz, please. And then Julie Tuite.

Council members. I'm here tonight to try and save someone's life. Three weeks ago about um there was a traffic accident on Kuyama Road. One of the cars ended up in my front yard. This is what a week or so after they put up the speed limit sign. A 14-year-old took his father's car, went zooming down Kuyama Road, which is narrow, has no sidewalks, no visibility, lost going around the corner or went over the center center divider, ran into a car going in the opposite direction. Luckily, she managed to swerve at the last instant. He hit her driver's rear quarter, pushing her into my front yard, smeared the front of his car all over hers. Fortunately, in this accident, no one was hurt. Imagine what that would have been if that was a child on a bicycle or for that matter an adult on a bicycle or somebody walking their dog or a runner. I know it costs money to put in speed bumps. Can you imagine what the liability for the city will be if somebody gets killed there? Three years ago, we met we had we met with the city with met with the city government, the public works, the city manager, the mayor at the time. Suggestions were made. A traffic survey was done. We were told the results. They had a they had a radar uh monitor posted on the uh telephone call in front of my house. A normal, this is what we were told, a normal street

in the Armalada would expect to see 200 cars per day. We have over 2,000.

It's a thorough fair. This is a narrow street with low visibility. Okay. It's nice. Thank you for put for decreasing the speed limit to 20 miles an hour. But for the people that don't care about that and that's not a small number, somebody's going to get hurt. I think I sent at the last council meeting a photograph taken from across the street and out of my neighbor's uh front yard and it said, "Can you see my wife at the at at our mailbox?" You can't. And that was from like 50 feet away. If somebody goes around that corner zooming at 30 miles an hour, she's going to get nailed or I will or whatever. Okay. We've met with Mayor Gilman twice. You uh other people have met with the city city c um city government members. Every other house in the neighborhood has a please slow down sign. Could we please get speed?

Let me ask you to pause now, but I would love to hear um Mr. Harvey, also Chief Abbott, I know there's been some development there. Would you mind sharing that? We did meet uh with some residents of the area about a week or so ago. In fact, on my way into this meeting tonight, um I reminded the fire chief that we need to convene to follow up on that meeting. So, we will um there were some good suggestions that came out of that meeting and we hope to bring some of them back. And am I seeing an increased presence on the street? I think I've noticed that, but that's anecdotal.

No, absolutely. Yeah, we're we're layering extra patrol, high visitability patrol, um having the deputies park there when they're doing reports and then our motor officers picked up enforcement there as well. I know I we can't engage in a dialogue right now, but I appreciate that, but I want to give everybody the same amount of time. So, you've had your time. I understand that and I I apologize. Trust me. So, what I hope is that something can move fast on this. That's a sincere wish. Um Julie Tuma might please. Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor, council members, staff, and community, those here and those watching. We're still in the month of Earth celebrating our mother earth. So as we continue on as my family has grown up here in the Ohigh Valley and our ancestry goes back to thousands of years to villages throughout. I'm here to talk about the resolution that was put together here in the city of OHigh. It reflects language that was written nearly 50 years ago in the general plan that states the entire Ohhigh valley is archaeologically sensitive and we shall protect Indian villages. Took us three and a half years to put that resolution together and it was not easy to do that because there was a lot of backlash from it. Oh those silly people, you know, they just keep Indians just keep getting in the way things like that. So it's kind of I don't know. I don't know where it's at. The current admin uh board of the Barbarino Vento band in which I started back in 2002 has a different set of rules. Um their current chair Matthew Vasudo and council members are not uh from this area. They do not want well I shouldn't say they don't all want to. It's just that they're not trained to do the cultural resource management. They have um dismissed both my brother and myself. My brother got a notice on the public uh yard and the project going on. I have not been getting notices. I would like to request that where I cannot consult under AB52 which is a tribal nonprofit status for non-federally recognized natives but it could be under interested party section 106 that I can continue getting notices because my brother and I have been in cultural resources now for 40 years. We know the valley, we know what's here and we know

what the processes are. So, um I would request that and where people that are new to the valley and don't know the intricacies of of archaeology or even cultural awareness here in the valley that our culture is uh not in parcels. Uh our part our projects are parcel and project specific. So where you could be inches away from a village site, you can be even further or closer to uh cemeteries which we have no knowledge of that. A lot of our culture has been taken away from us through colonization. So but we have found our information through archaeology, through working with the archaeologists. That's something that I'm not sure has come to pass is that we since John Foster retired, the city needs another archaeologist or at least someone who can come in and help consult and continue doing the what is called the paw, the preliminary archaeological assessment. So that's my spiel for tonight. Thank you so much for listening.

Good night. Thank you. That's all the cards I have. Anybody online? We have no raised hands, mayor, but we do have quite a few participants on Zoom in our hybrid format. And this is our general public comment period, Zoom participants. So, it's good to make that notification to them. Still no raised hand. Okay, we can move on. We'll move on to the consent calendar. Does anybody want to pull anything out of the consent calendar? If not, then I'll make a motion to approve it. Yes. Want to make sure? I'll second.

Okay. Yeah. Great. Roll call, please. Yes. Mayor. Council member Rule. Yes. Mayor Gilman. Yes. Mayor Prom Mang. Yes. Council member Whitman. Yes. Council member Lang. Yes. Is that a first? I'm just going to acknowledge that. That may be a first. If not, it's been a while. Oh, it's been a while. Okay, we'll move on to the public hearing. Um, appeal of decision granting permit for facility use to Ohigh Valley Pickle Ball Incorporated. Miss Burgess, please. Actually, one moment if you don't mind, I'm gonna Mira. There she is. It's going to be a tag team effort with city attorney and also Miss Rivera. Thank you.

So, Bethany will start things off. I think we're going to load a presentation as well. There it is. You've got that. Okay. Thank you very much.

All right. And while the We don't need to start the presentation yet, but um good evening, Mayor Gilman, Mayor Bing, and members of council for the public. Um I am Bethany Burgess, your city attorney. because this is your first appeal under the following council's approval of new quasi judicial procedures um at the last regular city council meeting. I'm going to provide a brief overview of the process we're going to follow tonight before we get started. Um first after I provide this overview um we will ask you to make any exparte disclosures because this is a quasi judicial meeting or quasi judicial hearing. What that means is if you've been um contacted by members of the public regarding this item, um it would be helpful if you could disclose what those contacts were and whether they were supportive or in opposition. And you don't have to necessarily disclose every single correspondence, but generally that you were contacted and and whether people were in support or opposed. Um after that, there will be three presentations. You're going to receive a presentation as the city manager just indicated from city staff. Um following that there will be a presentation from the appellant because they filed the appeal and then the final presentation will be from the applicant or appell for the permit. After after each presentation while the speaker is still at the podium or at the microphone that will be the appropriate time for council to ask questions of that speaker. And then after each presentation, there will be a fivem minute rebuttal period for each of the speakers if they wish to use it. Following the presentations, we will open the floor for public comment and then under normal public comment procedures, members of the public may provide input for up to three minutes per person.

Um the last thing I want to mention is that after public comment, um we will initiate council discussion. And so as part of the council discussion tonight, um the main thing I want to mention is that ultimately you will be asked to um make a decision regarding this appeal based on the review criteria that are established in your municipal code. And those criteria are laid out in your staff report. So they should be easy to look at and track down. Page 54.

Yes. And and so what you will ultimately be asked to consider is whether the requested permit meets the review criteria that are established in the municipal code. And and um you will basically be reviewing that information in legal terms, what we call denovo, meaning you're going to look at all of the evidence that's presented um as if as if you're the initial decision maker. Um and and to go with this, ultimately what you will have to do is either grant the appeal and deny the permit or deny the appeal and approve the permit. And as noted in the staff report, if you decide to approve the permit, you do have the additional option of of subjecting the permit to further conditions. Um and so I one other point for clarification is that the issue before the council tonight is not whether to prohibit all pickle ball special events at Libby Park. It's it's limited to the scope of reviewing what was approved in the application and the information related to that. So any any future decisions regarding um policy direction for use of any city recreational facilities will be a topic for future discussion and that would be something that we could bring back to city council at a at a meeting scheduled down the road. Are there any questions for me before

at what point would you like the ex party disclosures? I was going to say we'll do that next. Okay, good. Yeah. Should we wait for questions till after your presentation? Um, so if you have questions for me on the procedural stuff I just mentioned, I would say ask those questions now. If you have questions on the staff presentation that Miss Rivera will provide, whether they're legal questions or otherwise, um, we can take those questions at that time. Okay. I think that it's more appropriate to wait. Thank you. Okay. Okay. exparte disclosures. Before we get started,

just to be clear, when you said if there's a communication that's only one directional, like you received an email as in a public comment, that's not what you mean. You mean back and forth communication. Um, I would generally recommend for quasi judicial proceedings that even if it's one way, but again, you don't need to identify every constituent who sent you an email. It it's acceptable to identify that you received um, you know, correspondence from members of the and support or opposed to one position or the other.

Um, and if there are if there are if you did receive um or have communication with the appellant or the appell, I would recommend that you disclose that. But as far as general public comment, um, you don't need to identify every single person who might have sent you an email. Does that make sense? So, I have I have another question. Um, how far back bec because this has been going on for three years or or more, but I've been on three years. I would say so. So, do I do do I have to disclose people I've talked to about this before the appeal was filed? No, I would say I would say actually

since the appeal. Well, I would say since the since the original permit was filed and I believe the date that it was submitted was February 17th. Okay. And so we should um we should disclose any sort of um folks who are enga who have been engaged in this process. Again if so if if you receive direct communication from either the appellant or the appell I would identify that. But if you receive general public comment um I would just mention that you receive general public comment either in support of or against.

Right. I'm just the reason I say is because there are many parties who are significantly interested although they don't fall under either the appellant or I mean they don't you know their name is not on any document but they you know are very vocal in the situation and um so I'm I'm just I'm wondering if that's also something that we should uh be exparteing. I think if you're comfortable disclosing that, I I think it would be appropriate to do so. But again, if if if the communication was not from one of the actual parties to the appeal, um the you know, you're you're not limit you're always going to receive public comment from constituents on matters of concern. So for the exparte purposes, it's okay to, you know, if if if you've had close um communication with members of the community who strongly support um one side or the other. I guess what I'm saying is I don't want you to feel like you have to identify every single public comment that wasn't made by the applicant or the appellant.

Right. So my question is is that you know um documents were were submitted in um support of a particular position but the person submitting those documents and who you know sort of enabled this process in certain ways um's name does not appear as an appellant or as you know as either party. So that's my question. And to say, you know, to the council, if you feel comfortable doesn't seem to me like that should be the standard. The standard should be, do you think you were being lobbied? You know, I think that that would be the standard to me.

I mean, technically from a due process standpoint, what the due process concern is is that if you've been lobbied by either the appellant or the applicant, that's why I'm that specific. Um, however, because it is a quasi judicial hearing and you're going to make evidentiary findings at the end of the process, if there's evidence that you've received that is beyond the record, I think it's important to disclose what that was, what that information was,

right? So, suppose evidence was given by a particular person to the city to go into the packet, but the name, you know, does not appear on any of the official documents is my question. That's really my question. I I'm just saying because, you know, it's potentially that um there are other relationships or financial um donations to campaigns and things like that that you know, unless this actually comes up, one wouldn't know that. And it seems to me to be fundamental that having I'm trying to be as direct as I can be without being, you know, too too direct. So I I hope you're understanding what I'm saying.

I believe so. I I would need to probably look at the specific material if and I is it included in this comments that were submitted? Um I mean that no no they were these documents were submitted to the city to go into the packet. And were they included in the packet? They were.

Okay. Then so what I would simply do is refer to the that indicate that you've reviewed the materials that were included in the packet. Um I and you I have no problem with someone indicating that they received those materials, but I I guess what I'm saying is that there's not an obligation to disclose every specific communication that you received from a from an individual who's not a party to the appeal, if that makes sense. Yes. But there's nothing wrong with disclosing more if if that's what you're comfortable doing, right? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just

No, no, no. That's not really my question. My my real question is lobbyists often don't emerge. You know, they lobby, but they don't emerge. And so that's really my question. And so if a council member felt they were being lobbied, right, I'm wondering if they would feel, you know, for me, if I felt I was being lobbyed, I would feel an obligation to say and to that I had exparte communication with this particular person. That's all I'm saying.

I I think if if that's if that's something that you feel um should be communicated, it's appropriate to do that to do so. It's hard to say what every single council member, you know, who might have who might have contacted every council member. So, I don't want to I don't want to provide a broad brush response that without knowing all the specific details if that makes sense.

Okay. And if it becomes necessary to specify then then I will um so I will start. I had an exparte um document sent to me from Mr. Kraut, which was part of the packet that he submitted. So, he sent this to me. Um, we did not speak on it. It came via email. Anything? Want to go down the line?

Um, yes. I had uh just a a conversation with Sage uh Inter, our uh parks and wreck vice chair, and she expressed her support or her um opposition to the appeal, her support of the And I also spoke with Karen Quimby who voiced her uh support of thee. I get the two confused. Uh other than the packet just the general email that people received. I did meet this was before the um permit was submitted but with Mr. Kraut um and Mr. Roth about the idea that would have been that was November. And then I have received texts from Karen Quinnby not related to the appeal as much as pickle ball in general.

Um I've spoke with Karen Quinnby, Mr. Mrs. Kraut. There was another woman when I met with the I'm so sorry I can't recall her name. Um and I spoke with Sage from Parks and as well and um um Carolyn Burke. Those are the ones that I spoke with. Um, I don't think I've been lobbyed by either the applicant or the I would call him the respondent, but um I think I do recall that there was some um you know there were some emails that I think all of us got and one of them made reference to um a resolution that was adopted 10 or so years ago. ago related to the tennis courts and I asked somebody from the tennis club if I could see that resolution

and they forwarded to Thank you all. Yes, please. I just wanted to clarify that Sage was in favor of the applicant and not the appellant. I think I might have confused the matter so I didn't want to have that on record. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. All right. So, we'll proceed then first with our city staff presentation. Thank you, Mr. Brown. Hello. Good evening, everyone. Uh, I created a small PowerPoint just to go through the facility use approval process. Can I And are we starting our timer? Do we have that going, Mr. McGomery? Thank you.

The each one um so the each one is 20 minutes. Okay. Yep. This will be very brief, I believe. Thank you. Sorry for interrupt. It's okay. It's okay. There we go. Yeah.

Um, so I first page, a brief summary. The city of Ohio's park and recreation department manages facility use applications for the Libby Park tennis courts through a structured administrative process governed by the Ohio Municipal Code and city policies. The parks and recreation director acting as the city manager's designate under Ohio municipal code section 4-3 301 holds authority to issue condition or deny facility use permits. Applications are reviewed for completeness, evaluated against availability and existing reservations, assess for applicable fees per the master fee schedule, and subject to insurance and hold harmless requirements. The director's decision is an administrative action that may be appealed to city council under Ohio municipal code chapter 1-4. Um so step one would be the initial inquiry and application submission. Um applicants contact the recreation department and they might come in person or we send the application through email. Tennis courts are available first come first served. except when reserved with permit. Staff advises on court availability, existing reservations, and priority use commitments and considerations. Applicant completes application for facility use identifying requested courts, dates, times, events, nature, and expected attendance. Um part step two, staff review and evaluation. Parks and Recreation Director reviews application for completeness and compliance. Staff evaluates against existing court reservations and recreation department programming schedules. Priority use commitments are considered, which you will see on page eight. Staff may

consult with other city departments if the event has broader impacts. Step three, insurance and fee requirements. Applicants must provide proof of general liability insurance prior to the event. Insurance must be written by carrier licensed in California. Applicants must agree to hold city harmless for any damages associated with facility use. Applicants responsible for any damage or cleanup to facilities used under the permit. The fee calculation is created based upon requested hours and dates. Step four, director's decision and appeal process. The parks and recreation director makes final administrative decision to approve, approve with conditions or deny. Upon approval, applicant notified in writing and provided signed permit with all conditions. Application fees are then collected. Upon approval, any person agreved by director's decision may file appeal to the city council under OHA municipal code chapter 1-4. City council may grant appeal and deny permit or deny appeal and grant permit with or without additional conditions. This is just a summary of the process. Um who looks through the initial inquiry and application submission. uh staff review and evaluation, the fee calculation, insurance, director's decision and appeal. And then last page would be the priority use considerations. Um we do receive dates early on in the year that we hold on our calendar. Um one is through the Ohio Valley Tennis Club through the resolution that I believe you were speaking of earlier. Um that's for the lower or upper tennis courts for the annual tennis tournament

and also club sponsored youth clinics and tournaments. The other consideration is city programming through the recreation department or other special events like oh high day and private events and we will always keep um four courts open during that time for day use. That's it. Thank you for that brief presentation. You're welcome. Any questions? I have a couple. I'll start. Um I'm just asking questions now about what happens in the courts. So am I am I correct in understanding that sometimes the courts are closed? Let's say if there's a sound check for a concert in Liby.

Correct. So there is closure for other kinds of events in the park. Okay, that's one. And then this is an anomaly I believe, but at the tennis tournament this on Saturday, did they end up going late because of the rain? They did. And do what time did it end? I believe it was somewhere around 11:30ish p.m. Okay. So, there was a tennis tournament that did go late. So, and how how did that you may not know this or maybe you do, but how did that decision get made about it staying later? Well, I'm just saying normally what would happen is 10 10 p.m. would be the close for all events in the in Libby Park. Correct. So some Well, 1000 p.m. the lights should go off. The lights should go off. So lights are supposed to go off at 10 p.m.

All right. At at any time. So they did not go off. I presume they did not go off. So somebody left them off or they did not get turned off. Okay. Yes. I did not hear about this until Okay. yesterday. And the only reason I know they're just there were people noticed and it was loud and all that kind of stuff. So I'm just So I guess I want to ask though on normal use there is exceptions in normal use. Am I understanding that correctly? Do you mean to stay later than 10? No, I mean it's stopped like the courts are are not used when there's a sound check. That's

Yeah, there's considerations made. you know, maybe there's a big event the day before, so you can't come in for an event at a certain time. There's lots of considerations to be made to an application. Okay. And you know, we work through that through the process. Okay. Other question? Yes, please.

Yeah. I is this okay to ask Bethany qu I mean our our city attorney questions? So, um, as I was reading section 4-3.43, 403. Um, I noticed that the word is shall when it comes to issuing a permit once the criteria is met. It's not may. So, it's not discretionary. It shall be issued. Is that correct?

That's correct. If all of the review criteria are approved and there's no other superseding policy that establishes additional conditions and requirements, then um From a staff review standpoint, the city manager is required or his designate would be required to issue the permit if they find that the criteria and the code are met. Um, okay, great. Um, I also, um, wanted to just tease out a little bit the statement, um, that you noted in the administrative report that the special events policy could be interpreted to only pertain to band, stand, fountain, and lawn areas.

Has this policy ever been applied to deny a tennis court facility use permit that we know of? So, this would be the first time that it would depart that we would we would actually use this to do that. Um,

miserable, do you mean to issue a permit or to deny it or which one? Um, no, really, you know, I'm I'm just trying to to understand what can be interpreted and what we are interpreting, you know, to pert to pertain what this permit might pertain to or what some of the conditions might pertain to, you know, whether or not um it the band stand, the fountain, and the lawn area are not the tennis courts. So, there is that that ambiguity there as to what this actually pertains to. If someone were to say that it pertained to the, you know, tennis courts, it's never pertained to tennis courts tennis courts before that we know.

Yeah. I believe the ambiguity there that makes this a little bit less black and white is the fact that it also specifically references the Ohigh tennis tournament um as being a a use that's or an event that's authorized under that policy. And while I'm sure that um that event may there may be people who spread into other parts of Libby Park as part of that event, the primary the primary use within the park during that event would be the tennis courts. So it's I think it's challenging to say it wouldn't ever apply to the tennis courts otherwise it wouldn't specifically fall out the tennis.

You you would another exception though would be Ohigh. I believe there's other uses on the tennis court besides tennis. Is that correct at Ohai? back. Any other questions?

Um, no. I think that that will be enough. But I do actually do have a question for Miss Rivera. when you evaluated criterion A, which is whether the event would unreasonably interfere with public enjoyment, um, and you you came to conclude that it would not, what factors did you consider? So, your professional reasoning in that decision?

I considered other events going on at that time. If we had another reservation in the same spot, if we had something going on, you know, maybe in the city at that time. Exactly. Um, and there was nothing to my knowledge that looked like it would interfere with any type of enjoyment.

My questions, um, we can talk about an estimated attendance because at the Ohigh tennis tournament and at other events, um, using the same, you know, facility use permit, we certainly have events that way exceed this number in in standard. I mean it's a normal event to weigh ex to exceed this number greatly. Um so I'm just you know kind of working with that as well. had you considered that I'm sorry to interrupt just to follow on you considered that that when we see this I'm looking at page 854 of the large packet service groups for events of less than 150 people and provide etc etc but then we see on there on the application that would be page 287 of the large packet 100 spectators 220 participants so total 320 I don't know if that's for the totality of the four days we could ask the we could ask them when may come up. But did that did you ask that question or did that give you any pause?

So the difference with that is that is Libby Park and Bull. Um I think it's policies and procedures. This is a tennis court rental even though it does fall under a special event which is also a check mark on the facility use rental application. If it's something like oh high day or something that's going on inside of the park, we use a different application for that. So, this is facility use rental through the recreation department for the tennis courts.

And I actually do have one last question and this is for the city attorney. Um, if the appeal were to be granted tonight, what guidance does that provide to staff for future facility use permit applications? Would a neighborhood group be able to appeal any permitted event at Libby Park on noise grounds? So if or in any grounds.

So I think what I would say is that if if the appeal is granted tonight or whether the appeal is denied either way um you know my recommendation to staff without further direction from council would be that you know as each permit comes in they evaluate the the the elements of the of the municipal code section 4-3.403 403 with respect to that particular event. So

while while it may be helpful information to know how council decided this item, um the decision tonight is is really specific to this particular appeal as opposed to um you know a future-looking direction on future applications. But it would be a precedent where neighbors could come in and say too loud for me. And if you get eight neighbors to say that and conceivably that could happen today with any permit that's issued by the city if an appeal is received during the appeal period. Right. Great. Thank you. Appreciate it. Any other questions for staff?

Yeah, I have a couple of questions. So, um, you said that there have been other uses of the tennis courts other than tennis on Ohhigh day. What? What uses have they been?

So, at least since I've been doing Ohhigh day the past few years, I've had um Tim Kraut do a pickle ball demonstration. So, he'll teach people um he'll bring out the equipment um and it's kind of like an activity for Ohhigh day. So, you know, and he requested that if if he could do that for Ohhigh day. So, one court and demonstration. Any other any other It's just that first. Oh, okay. Any other uses? I I would have to confirm that, but as I recall, it's it's

Yeah, you could confirm that, but it's not it wasn't one court for sure. Okay. I I can't really remember. Well, finish your thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so but no other uses other than a demonstration of pickle ball for Ohhigh day or for any other well or actually I'll I'll ask that one next. But for Ohhigh day, um, have there been any has there been any use of the tennis courts for non tennis activities other than that that pickle ball demonstration? No, not that I know of. Um, since I've been doing it. I'm just gonna because I have history here.

Uh those lower libby courts were used as standard pickle ball courts for a period in the summer of can't really remember. Oh, I see. I'm sorry. I thought you meant during Ohhigh day. Okay. But in the past Oh day. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's okay. Well, go ahead and answer. Do you want to ask the larger question? Yeah. So, how about um excluding Ohigh Day, have the tennis courts been used for non tennis activities?

Not that I have been a part of. I did hear that maybe once years ago there was a dance party that was unauthorized through your permit, but that's all I've heard. Um, other than that, I do know that for a period that you were saying they did have pickle ball on those courts for temporary use. Uh, but that's all I'm aware of. And do you I just will follow up his question. Do you recall if there were any complaints or do you have any Well, can I can I ask you to hold up? Let's finish and then come back. Yeah, go ahead. That's right.

Yeah. So you said that um you you told us what your considerations were about enjoyment. Um did you consider the residents who live in proximity to Libby? Hold on guys let let us let us try to answer these questions. I when you thought about would this you know interrupt anybody's enjoyment

I did of course I've been a part of the situation but this is a special event if it would have been regular play I do feel differently um on that but I did of course take that into consideration but this would just be a special event so I'm not I'm not sure I understand that consideration. If did you decide that you shouldn't consider the enjoyment of the local the adjacent residents because it was a special event or

No, I just considered it being a court and in our documents and everything that I found when I read up on it, it says tennis court and like use. So, you know, pickle ball, paddle ball as for a special event. I didn't see there was nothing that says you cannot. It's not, you know, prohibited from there. Daily use, we do have a sign, but this would be for a special event.

Okay. But if I just want to make sure I'm clear on this. You didn't consider whether the pickle ball activity would have an impact on the neighbors adjacent to it.

I'm going to jump in here uh council member because this was discussed with me as well and that was one of the things that we talked about. I think what Miss River is just trying to say, I don't know that if it's being conveyed, is yes, of course, we consider those types of things. What she is saying is because of its very temporary duration, the determination was that it was not uh you know a major impact to it was a perhaps a an a nuisance or annoyance to some for a short period of time. So it was not a a quality of life impact. that was determination made and the code as she's talking about really talks about other paddle uses and so this is part of the situation we're in

is the code is very vague and we don't try to make determinations when we review applications you know what what what would the what would the council say about this what would the you know if we don't have um in front of us what allows us to make a decision one way or the other we don't try to interpret we we use what Um could I make one point of comment? Yeah. So I think in just to council member Whitman's point there are six there are six criteria that have be that you go through and this is otherwise and and if you find that there is no objection the permit shall be granted. I think the one that you were referring to would be B that the proposed activity or use will not unreasonably interfere with or detract from the promotion of public health, welfare, safety or recreation. It doesn't say anything about enjoyment and and I think that that's a different standard. Enjoyment is a different standard than public health for instance or welfare or safety. So I would say that, you know, it would not have been fair for Miss Rivera to to put enjoyment, you know, as a criteria when it's not actually in the section itself. That's all I'm saying.

I I think that that's what she said was to talk about it. So if we want to talk about public health, I can go and ask those questions. Yes, Miss B, please. If I may, um, section 4-3.43, 403. The first item A does mention the public enjoyment of the park. I do want to make sure though that for purposes of this part of the public hearing that we stick to questions and hold the discussion for the later part. Um fair enough. Yeah, I don't just Yeah, go and then I'll go.

So I I have a question. Um when we when we were in the discussions to move to build the pickle ball paradise in in at Soul Park in in several of those meetings, we heard about the damage. We heard from the tennis people that the pickle ball courts that having pickle ball on the tennis courts would actually cause damage to the courts. And it was discussed in those meetings that that even a temporary even a temporary use would require extra work on their part to maintain those courts. Was any of that considered when we were looking at this?

So I have been a part of the temporary pickle ball courts. We've put it inside of the gym. Um we have done it on the tennis courts as well. Uh, the pickle ball group uses a very low adhesive tape that comes off really easily and has never left any sort of marks that I'm aware of. Not even on a a basketball gym floor. It's it comes off uh very easily. So, that's the only change that happens during the court that I'm aware of or any sort of damage would be from the tape. And the other question I have is knowing how contentious of an issue this was for the first two years that we were that I was serving and even before that, did any consideration go into how the tennis community would would respond to this?

So, I'm going to jump in on this one if I could, council member. So, again, I think and I

I'm going to try to explain this in a different manner. When we look at what is allowed and what is not allowed, we we do not consider sentiments, we don't consider, you know, is this content contentious, is this not contentious, what are what are we authorized to make a decision with here? What's in front of us? What are we allowed to use as part of our decision-m process? And that's how you know we we came to permit this because from our read of the code and the policies and the procedures and from looking at past practice at the courts, notably three different special pickle ball events at at the courts, we we did not find any way that we would be able to say no, we can't allow this because of X, Y, and Z. We didn't see that. There's nothing that says it's expressly prohibited that we found.

Okay, it might not have said it was expressly prohibited, but we had the sound study and the findings of the sound study said,

but again, if you go back, if you go back to that meeting, what that me if you go back to that meeting and you and this is what we looked at too, there was a big discussion. There was a report handed over to the council from the parks and recreation commission and the council directed the then interim city manager to come back with a recommendation and unfortunately I can't find any return as directed. That was our research was that count the the interim city manager after that discussion was directed to come back to the city council with a recommendation and he did not. Can I follow up on sound? Um, so when there's a special event like the tennis tournament or even the music festival or anything like that,

now I know we have an ordinance around sound levels and we're looking for that especially for the neighbors. So this is completely anecdotal, but what happened on the 25th, there were complaints, you know, that we saw on social media and all these things, but the general thinking was this is a weekend event and not something that's going to happen every single day. So is that when we think about a concert or something like that, I know we're monitoring this because that's ongoing, but when we think of a special event, I presume we're not we're not measuring the tennis tournament sound levels. We're not. Okay. Yeah. concerts definitely we are. Okay. Um but for special events, you know,

ohigh can make the same noise, tennis tournament, um you know, art in the park, I don't know. We have sometimes have bands at the gazebo during these special events and we don't monitor the sound at that time. Okay. Any questions?

Yeah, I I do have a question. So, you know, we have something like a hundred years of Oh, tennis tournaments. Are you, and you might tell me if you're not the right person to ask this question to, but have there been complaints from the neighbors around Libby Park at the Ohio Tennis tournament? Nat noise is disturbing their lives. specifically that tournament. I have not had any um comments made to me. Any other tennis tournaments?

This is not a study. This was completely on social media. It was what is happening on Saturday night. It was 11:30 and again that's an anecdote. That's not a study. But um we can discuss it. It was quite loud at my house. 11:30 and it will even on Thursday there again anecdotes. Thursday the chamber mixer said we couldn't hear ourselves talk but again nobody wants to complain because it's ob it's a the tradition that you just brought up I mean it's an important part of our town so and it was awesome what we're discussing now let's not discuss let's ask questions final question so I'm looking at 4-3A

oh I'm sorry I'm looking at the municipal code section 4-3.43 403 and I'm going to a and we were just talking about enjoyment and I wanted to ask the question. It says that the proposed activity or use will not unreasonably interfere with or detract from the public enjoyment of the park. Not public enjoyment, not not enjoyment generally, but public enjoyment of the park. And that's a very specific phrase that means the people going through the park will not and I think that's what you said when you said that one of the criteria. Anyway, I I just wanted to say that there's in my mind and I would think legally there's something a differentiation there between enjoyment of my life and enjoyment of my time in the park.

It does say from public enjoyment of the park and then And as was pointed out previously, the second um criteria is whether the proposed activity will not unreasonably interfere with or detract from the promotion of the public health, welfare, safety, and recreation. Okay, I I'm done. And I think that the the group out in the the audience is probably ready for their time. No. Yeah, fair enough. Any other questions? Thank you, Mr. Vera. Appreciate it. Okay, we will then move on to the next piece which is the appellent presentation. Thank you. Hello.

Oh, get going. Uh, hello, uh, mayor and members of the city council. I'm Alex Mooney. I live on South Signal Street. And first of all, I just want to say Let me pause you one second and please stop the timer. So, we want to hear everybody really fairly. So, I understand everybody has a lot of feelings. So, I want to ask you please not to express your feelings. Even if you agree or disagree, let's hear everybody really well and we'll make a good decision. Thank you. Sorry. Please proceed. Start my time over. Could we pause the timer for one moment? I just want to clarify or make sure um so the the appeal was filed by the neighbors of Libby Park um Jamie Roth. And I just want to confirm that um our folks standing at the podium right now are are the neighbors of Libby Park. We are

and Okay, perfect. I just wanted to double check and make sure that we weren't deprived. I am a neighbor of Libby Park. Thank you. Okay, please proceed.

My name is Alex Mooney. I am a neighbor of Libby Park. Um I live on South Signal Street. I am speaking on behalf of the neighbors of Libby Park to respectfully request that the city rescend the permit issued to the Ohigh Valley Pickleball, Inc. for the proposed uh tournament at the lower Libby tennis courts on June 5th through 7th, 2026. This request is not about opposition to pickle ball as a sport. I myself am a pickle ball player and love it. Um it is about consistency in city policy, adherence to prior findings and protection of residents from known and significant impacts. One, the city has already established a clear clear policy. No pickle ball at Libby Park. The city has already studied this issue and reached a clear conclusion. Pickle ball does not belong at Libby Park tennis courts. In April 23, the parks and rec commission unanimously adopted the recommendation of its pickleball ad hoc committee that pickle ball should not be introduced at Libby Park. This followed a 13-month public process, extensive community input, and a professional acoustic study. At the December 12th, 23 city council meeting, the city attorney confirmed that relocating pickle ball to lower Libby was off the table and no council member expressed any interest in revisiting that position. The city then reinforced this policy by installing no no pickle ball signage at the courts. This is not informal guidance. This is policy in practice. Two, calling this special event does not change that the city now characterizes this tournament as a permitted special event that is not prohibited by code. But that framing side s side s side s side s side s side s side s side s side s side s side sidesteps the core issue even if the code does not explicitly list pickle ball at Libby as prohibited. The city has already established a functional policy through its actions,

findings, and public representations. Allowing a permit to override that policy creates a loophole that renders all of those actions meaningless. If a use that has been studied, rejected, and publicly disallowed can be approved simply by labeling it as a special event, then no land use policy has real force. A special event permit is meant to allow otherwise appropriate uses on a temporary basis, not to authorize a use the city has already determined is incompatible with that location. Three, the thermit the thermit the permit uh also ignores the city's own event size limit. This is a second policy issue. The city adopted a policy in 2022 limiting new non-leacy events at Libby Park to 150 participants. The tournament application states they expect approximately 220 players, as mentioned before, 100 spectators. This is around 320 people, more than double the allowed size. The city now argues that this limit, bless you, may not apply to the tennis courts. But that interpretation is not grounded in the policy's purpose. It is a workaround. Taken together, the permit disregards both a the established no pickle ball at Libby Park policy and two or b the 150 person event limitation. Additionally, the city's own sound study shows this use is incompatible. This is not speculative. It has already been studied. In February 23, the city retained Pickleball Sound Mitigation LLC to conduct a detailed acoustic analysis. That study concluded, one, Soul Park is the only appropriate location for pickle ball without mitigation due to its distance from residences. Two, at lower libby, even two pickle ball courts located on tennis court number six, the f furthest from the residences, exceed

acceptable noise levels. Three, effective mitigation would require substantial substantial sound barriers of uncertain success and other courts at lower four other courts at lower libby could never meet acceptable noise thresholds by three. By clear implication, converting four tennis courts, oh god, these would help into 16 pickleball courts would generate noise levels that cannot be made acceptable. Yet, that is exactly what this tournament proposes. 16 courts from 6:30 a.m. to 10 p.m. for three consecutive days. This is not a minor or temporary impact. It is an intensive sustained highfrequency impulse noise to which scores of neighbors and parkgoers will be suggested. This violates the city's own standards for issuing a permit to begin with. Under the municipal code, a permit may only be issued if the activity A does not interfere with public enjoyment of the park and B does not harm public health, welfare or safety. This proposal fails both. The noise will affect not only nearby residents but also anyone using the Libby Park using Libby Park for quiet recreation. And for residents living within a few hundred feet, including elderly and homebound individuals who obviously couldn't be here with us tonight, this level of sustained noise for 10 to 13 hours a day that will penetrate closed windows and doors is not avoidable and not reasonable reasonable. These impacts are not hypothetical. They are documented in the city's own study. This decision also undermines prior city investments in planning. The city invested over $600,000 building dedicated pickle ball facilities, beautiful ones, at Soul Park. A site specifically selected to avoid impacts on residential neighborhoods. Allowing a major tournament at Libby Park disregards that investment and the planning decisions

behind it. It also raises a simple question, why is this tournament not being held at the facilities that were designed for it? The broader issue here is precedent and public trust. Allowing this event sets a precedent that will be difficult to contain. It signals that established policies can be bypassed. Staff can reinterpret rules to fit a desired outcome and prior public processes can be set aside and that undermines public trust in every future decision. So the good news is that there is a practical reasonable alternative and that is not about cancelling the tournament. The tournament can be right-sized, can fit Soul Park, or distribute across multiple venues. This is exactly how the Ohigh Valley Tennis Club operates its tournaments. In fact, the athletic club has indicated a willingness to work with the pickleball club to help host a pickle ball tournament, and I could say firsthand, the athletic club is a great pickle ball location. So if this permit is rescended, the tournament should definitely still go forward just in appropriate locations where the impacts are minimal. In conclusion, this issue is not whether pickle ball should exist in Ohhigh. It does and we love it. The question is whether the city will uphold its own findings, polit policies and commitments to residents. The city studied this issue. It reached a clear conclusion. It commun communicated that conclusion to the public. No pickle ball at Libby Park. And now through this permit, it is acting contrary to it without process and without justification. We respectfully ask that you rece resend this permit, refund fees paid, and formally adopt resolution that pickle ball is not permitted on Libby Park tennis courts for any reason. Thank you for your time and consideration. I would now like to introduce Mark Hitch, the president of the Ohigh Valley Tennis Club, who will continue our presentation.

Um, I I have a quick question for the attorney if you could stop the time. Um, so I don't Are you a member of the neighbor group? Yes, I am. Okay. All right. I was just I I just Please. Sorry. Proceed. Sorry. That's a tough act to follow. Mayor,

you mean Alex is a tough act. Yes. Anyhow, uh, Mayor, uh, thank you for letting me be here to council members. Thank you so much for letting me be here. Um, I I am the president of the Ohio Tennis Club. Proud to proud to be that person. I'm a 30-year resident of this beautiful city of Ohio. I love it here. Um, first I want to state that the city currently has a clear policy on not permitting pickle ball play on the Libby Park tennis courts. Over the last seven years, this issue has been more thoroughly litigated and considered by the council and parks and recreation commission than virtually any other matter brought before the city. In my mind, I believe in the mind in the minds of most interested parties, this issue was conclusively resolved on April 6th of 2023 by the Parks and Recreation Commission unanimous adoption of the recommendation contained in its final pickle ball report dated March 30th of 2023. Following a 13monthl long intensive study, the pickle ball report recommends that the city should not introduce pickle ball to the current Libby Park tennis courts. Let me repeat, the parks and recreation recommendation was that pickle ball should not be allowed on the on the Libby Park tennis courts. Indeed, following that meeting, the city confirmed this policy by placing no pickle ball signs at all Libby Park tennis courts. They're still there. Walk around, they're on every court. These signs, it's a clear indication the pickle ball is not to be played on those courts. Second, the issuance of the subject facility use permit is in clear conflict with the this established policy based on various recent discussions with parks

and repres representatives. apparently is now a new parks and recreation interpretation of the city's existing special events policies which holds pickle ball which which holds pickle ball is allowed at Libby Park so long as it is designated as a special event a loophole. We have been informed by Parks and Recreation that it has the discretion to issue use permits at Libby Park for any event involving paddles and balls, including pickle ball. This new paddle and and ball special event loophole has never been approved by the city council or the parks and recreation commission. We question whether the parks and recreation staff or city manager has the discretion to allow pickup tournaments in clear and obvious violation of Libby Park no pickle ball policy simply because it is designated as a special event. Logically, a special event permit should be meant to allow at a specific time and place an an otherwise appropriate use, not to authorize a use that the city has or over a 7-year period already studied, rejected, and publicly disallowed. We can only conclude that the issuance of the subject use permit was either an abuse of discretion or issued an error and disallowed. We can only conclude, excuse me, repeat myself a little bit here. Third, the issuance of the use permit is not in compliance with the city's own legal requirements. It does not comply with the city's special events policy because it exceeds the maximum number of participants in spec specific specified in the policy which is 150.

The proposed pickle ball tournament would involve some 320 people mentioned before. The city staff reports report report strangely states that this special event policy maximum could be interpreted to cover only the non tennis court areas of upper Libby Libby Park while possibly excluding both the upper and lower Libby Park courts. This is a non non sensical statement straining to allow special events of unlimited size on the tennis courts and elsewhere in the park. It seems a far more reasonable interpretation that this maximum limit should apply to the area of the Libby Park where the requested special offense will occur. Further, the issuance of the subject use permit completely overlooks and disregards the significant noise impact of the proposed pickle ball tournament upon the surrounding neighborhood and other areas. This is alluded to from Alex. The proposed special event would would generate noise well in excess of the maximum acceptable sound levels recommended in the final pickle ball report. During the course of its pickleball study, the parks and recreation retained PSM, a well-recoognized professional pickleball noise engineering firm at a cost of over $13,000. PSM produced a 70page 70 page sound study which is included in the final pickleball report. These maximum acceptable sound levels were unanimously approved by the parks and recreation commission at his April 6, 2023 meeting. The scientific data and conclusion from from the PSM sound study include the following. Based on the PSM recommended

guidelines specific to pickle ball noise and sound testing conducted at lower libby, the pickle ball noise from just two pickle ball courts on the south end of court six, which is away from everything extend exceeds the PSM recommended maximum acceptable noise level. PSM concluded that putting even one pickle ball court on tennis court f on tennis court five would not be feasible as a as a pickle ball noise from that court location could not ever be acceptable. That's one court. The clear and obvious conclusion would be that putting 16 pickle ball courts on all four lower libby courts could not ever be feasible as the noise it generated would far exceed the PSM recommended maximum acceptable noise levels. It is important to note that contrary to statements made in support of the pickle balls club's position, pickle ball noise is not at all comparable to the noise from the oi tennis tournament. or the music festival. We just finished our 124th year. We haven't had any complaints. We just heard that the intense highfrequency impulse noise of pickle ball is the most intrusive type of noise identified in the PSM sound study and is uniquely objectable and annoying. As stated in the city staff report for this matter, the Ohio m municipal code provides for city park use permits to be issued if the request used does not unreasonably interfere with the public's enjoyment of the park. The public's health, welfare, and safety, clearly significant noise impacts from the proposed pickle ball tournament would not comply with either of these legal standards.

Thus, the issuance of the subject use permit is not in compliance with either the city's own special events policy or the Ohigh Municipal Code. Such permit issuance either constitutes an illegal abuse of discretion or was issued in air and the permit should be rescended. We believe that the proposed pickle ball pickle ball tournament could be relocated to the city's own sole park pickle ball complex developed by the city at a cost of here we go $600,000 alter al see alter see if proposed if the prop if proposed tournament requires more than six co more than six courts it could be played on multiple pickle pickle ball venues is in the city. Just as we just did with the Ohio tennis tournament, we go all over the city. We can't just have it at Libby Park. If the pickle ball club desires that its tournament be played at a single venue, the Ohio Valley Athletic Club already has six dedicated pickle ball courts and more than 10 tennis courts which could be rented out, converted to temporarily. We mentioned that earlier. It's a very nice facility. I'm over there all the time. So, it is completely realistic to success that the proposed pickle ball tournament could and should be relocated to Ohhigh pickle ball venues other than lower libby. Lastly, as mentioned in the city's in the city staff report, I would ask for the for the council to direct staff to return at a future council meeting with a policy banning all future pickle ball play at upper and lower Libby Park courts without exception for cons for cons council consideration. I thank you for your time and hear me out. Appreciate

it. Thank you. That concludes our presentation. Thank you.

Yeah. A writer's workshop um because of the proposed pickle pickle sorry pickle ball tournament. Then we although it's gotten better there was some pickle pickle people, pickle ball players down there. I live on 406 South Signal

and they can actually hear me from the hill from my house. I don't even have to speak loud. Say signs. Some people are very innocent. They're just visitors. These people were residents. And I said there, please look at the signs. There's no pickle or paddle. It was dark out. I said, "Relax." And they said, "We're not leaving." I said, "Well, Joseph, now I've gotten to know all the police is going to come down." They said, "We don't care. The police were here. We're not leaving." I said, "Okay, well, they'll come down again." So, Joseph went down and the second they, you know, it takes a while to get there. They saw him and

Joseph didn't give them a hard time, but um because they left, but still it leaves one on edge. pickle ball is very the sound is very disruptive to the nervous system and I don't know I appreciate your consider thank you and I appreciate Ben you've been very helpful in the past with other things and I thanks thank you no matter what thank you for so if you might please remain any questions if I I'll start so Miss Mooney you you suggested um The athletic club is offering to host it now. They have neighbors all around there. So they're saying that's not a problem.

Well, they you know that's what I mean. Neighbors pickle court. No, I get that. So that So they have pickle ball courts. I I'm looking at their hours and they have neighbors right you know next but they don't they're saying it's not a problem. We'll do it. It's not already there. There's u you could use the athletic club and soul park. No no I hear that. Yeah I'm just I'm just clarifying. So, they've already offered to have it there. Yeah, they did. No, of course I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand.

Sorry about that. Just talking here. But, uh, it's it's it's a different surrounding, you know, but you've got Wild Academy around there up above while academy, you know, housing. There's a lot of space all around the tennis courts and the pickle ball courts. It's just it's just a completely different scenario. I'm not question I guess I'm in my mind's eye there's the bike path and then the house is right across the street from the bike path across from the athletic club. No, no, no, no. They're they're those are the tennis clubs on the Brian Street side is where the pick courts are. Andy, it's quite a ways away. Okay. Yeah, that's So they've they've offered they're they do well.

No, I mean this I'm confirming they've offered to have them back. They've Yes, they've offered. Yes. All right, other questions. I have a question. Is there a new parks and wreck policy that they were told to that accepts special events with pickle ball? So, I didn't see it in the packet. No. No. So, they you they were just told that that there was a new policy. Is that I I was not aware of that. Okay. So I was just reading in the documents. Um what is it page 92? Um so there isn't there's no new policy. I I have a question. Is there a policy?

Yeah. because I remember when those signs went up and I remember Lewis Gomez telling me that he did not put them up. So I mean so that was way back when but do and I remember that we were we had sent this out to have a you know consultant you know to have the park and wrecks and other people come back with a recommendation on what the policy should be. Right. But it never came back.

So as we never it never came back. I mean we talked about it amongst ourselves about whether or not we liked pickle ball here there or whatever. But we sent it out for a policy and it never came back with that I recall. I don't remember it. So this was this is before my time but yeah from from the March Scott I think right that I was able to conduct. Clearly there's a there's a very thorough report that the parks and recreation commission did huge reviewed it you know listened to to those discussions read all that it came before this body big discussion about it

and at the end of the discussion the council direction was for the city manager to you know based upon what had just been discussed to return policy and that's that's the problem did not happen but but yeah may I may I step in that that Um, uh, the city, uh, attorney at the time, Matt Summers, said, "My understanding is that quote, pickle ball is off the table for Libby Park." And then the signs went up after that. So, contact one person at a time, please. If I could just continue. So, go

what we try to So, this is this this is very illustrative of the situation at hand. We we we don't when we make determinations our our course of action is not to go back and listen to, you know, the the proceedings in a discussion. Sure, that's helpful in informing a decision, but we look for direction. We look for we look for direction. We look for a policy. We look for an ordinance. We look for something that, you know, is is lasting. And unfortunately, there can be there can be consensus in in a discussion. It can be clear that the council feels a certain way, but if the council and this is why when you see us asking you at the end of your deliberation, okay, we we can you repeat that direction. We need to know what we're supposed to do. We need to understand it. Is is there something coming back?

And I you know, I understand at the time it was a fluid time in in the city's leadership, right? And that particular interim city manager departed shortly thereafter. So, I understand why it likely never returned, but it it didn't. And I think you know, if that's council's direction, we're happy to come back and make it abundantly clear, but it's just not abundantly clear right now. And we don't freestyle when we try to, you know, review and accept applications. We don't feel that that's our role. You wanted me to come in?

Yeah. Um because I I had a similar memory that actually you you the of the December 23 meeting of I mean I remember actually one of the tennis people, believe it was Peter at the end of the meeting after we had agreed on soul park coming and saying can we put this into a policy and it was and I I I don't recall if there was a formal vote but I do recall us agreeing to that but again just because you agree in a discussion at you know at a council meeting if it didn't come back and and create you know there should be a a policy that subsequently returns that you adopt

so I think this is for you know the discussion time That sure would be a good way to avoid city council policy if it never gets carried out. Is that a speculation about what happened? No, I mean the guy who was supposed to carry it out resigned suddenly during one of our meetings and it never got carried out. Sure. Sure. That doesn't mean that we didn't like give direction. Oh, I see. Well, take if I could. The motion from that meeting says that the city manager was to return with the recommendation. That was that was the direction that's in you can read it for yourself if you don't believe me. That's in That's in.

So, I I'm I'm going to say something because I I don't want to have to keep going over this. I don't fault Christy or you because you guys you guys didn't have the same information and you didn't you didn't have a thorough explanation from that meeting. So, I don't know exactly how I'm going to vote today, but don't think that I think it's because you guys were

committing an error. And and what I attempted to clarify with the city attorney this morning is that we're deciding denovo, which means that it's our judgment that potentially replaces your judgment. I have a completely different depth of knowledge what happened and I don't expect you or Christie have had the same knowledge that I I want to form this into a question if we can. Yeah, I was going to say we need to Yeah, we need to focus on the questions and then let the applicant make their presentation. Yeah. Other other questions. Anybody?

This is a denovo review. that is we do take it from from the beginning but we're still required to to or maybe we're not we're still required to map it against the six criteria are we not you are you're still governed by the city code okay thank you so are there any other questions for the appellants thank you for your presentation

appreciate it thank you thank you all right we will move on to the uh applicant presentation Please. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I was just wait to start. I guess you would don't start the clock till I can't hear up here, guys. Thank you. So, yeah. Thank you, city council. Uh, everybody else, uh, let me ask you to pause. I still can't hear. Please, if we could have quiet in the audience. Thank you. Okay, go ahead.

Uh, thank you to all of you for just letting us uh come and uh talk about this issue. So, um, honestly, uh, so much of what I wanted to cover has already been talked about. I think that the city manager and the recreation uh director have done a fantastic job of explaining the legitimate cogent rationale as to why this permit was uh approved in the first place and should continue to be approved. Um, let me just start by saying honestly I I really believe that most of what the tennis community just uh um talked about with all of you and all of the years of discussion that has gone on that we are talking about apples and oranges. Um they are two completely different situations. So everything the the PSM uh report all the different data that was um you know digested and discussed was relative to one particular topic and that was the permanent relocation of pickle ball to lower libby courts. That was what was being discussed. That was what was uh studied and a decision was made um to not do that and ultimately resulted in the courts out at Soul Park which we are very happy uh to have and very uh happy to have the city court still which I think has uh the amount of activity there has diminished a whole lot which I think is I hope uh amendable to the neighbors but fundamentally the issue that the uh tennis community has just been talking about is related to the permanent location of pickle ball at uh Libby Park and that is a closed discussion that is a decision that was made that no that is never going to happen. This is completely different. This is a one-time event. This is a special event. This is something that is

not covered by all of those different issues. Um and so uh I think also because it is a special event, it is something that is happening once this year, it is also not precedent setting. And I can tell you at least I think from the standpoint of uh the pickle ball community, there's no intent or no nefarious thinking here of we get our foot in the door, we've had an event there, now we can come back at the city council trying to get pickle ball permanently down in uh Libby Court. No, that is not even anything. So there's no presidential type of uh concern here that is realistic, honest or or you know really um I think related to whatever we're talking about. Um just you because it's been read uh so many times, but I I just need to refer back to uh the Ohigh Municipal Code itself. That's section 43 uh301 that delegates to the city manager and his design the authority for the enforcement of all regulations affecting the facilities designated as parks, including the authority to issue advanced reservations for park facilities and the authority to issue permits for use of city park facilities. And obviously that's been discussed. the issue around the obligation on the part of the city manager and his design to have to issue that permit when the six conditions are met. Obviously, there's disagreement. I would definitely argue that those six um conditions have in fact been met. I think there's been enough discussion around public enjoyment is which is really specifically re relegated to the park. That's what the language actually says. This is not the general enjoyment of anybody who's walking by or lives in a nearby neighborhood. That's not what the language says. And when you get into the issues of public health and welfare, we

could have a long debate about what that means. But I would also argue and agree that that's not a temporary one or two day activity that rises, you know, above what it might normally be. I think that your point uh uh uh mayor uh around the um the uh tennis courts and the pickle ball courts over there is interesting. There's a lot of residences around there and pickle ball is over there and we're not dealing with complaints there. Um and so I think that there's some some symmetry there as well. Um I think the uh only other thing that I really want to um point out has to do from the special events policy which talks about both timing and sound. Um you were talking about the 10 to 10. Obviously there was um some concerns by the tennis community just this last Saturday night due to rain and I get it but still rules are rules and there were issues that you alleged you know kind of took place o over that. But if you read in the uh special events policy, um it says that the city allows amplified sound at the bowl only between 10 and 10 p.m. Sound is monitored on site and staff alerted if levels surpass 70dB. Um and that's there's even a level of 95 dB allowed at the soundboard. This is obviously within the bowl and there's lots of concerts that take place there that um exceed you know anything even close to what pickle ball is in the neighborhoods in the community. These are special events that are sanctioned, that are embraced by the community, and neighbors simply understand that periodically there's going to be these special events that are loud, are noisy, and they end no later than 1000 p.m. Uh, you go back to

the PSM report that was uh related to the um the maximum sound um on site uh for pickle ball was 60 dBs. It was 55 dBs at 100 ft. That's from this the PSM study itself. Um and uh obviously the uh special event um rules themselves talk in terms of levels of acceptable levels being up to 70 dBs at the bowl of even up to 95 dBs if you're standing at the soundboard. So again, I think that from the standpoint of parody, um, that the amount of sound, the level of noise being generated by a 3-day pickle ball tournament is, uh, doesn't even compete with the amount of noise that is, uh, generated by other pickle ball, I'm sorry, by other special events. The other thing that I want to talk about, because again, it's kind of alleged that there's going to be this constant noise from 6:30 a.m. to 10 p.m. That's simply not realistic. Now, if any of you have ever played in any kind of a tournament, I've played in a number of pickle ball tournaments. Um, these are, you know, um, uh, there is intermittent play. Uh, it's not games going all the time. Uh, there's a lot of time lag between games because you're waiting for other games to end before the next round of games. It's going to start. So there's an a significant amount of intermittent play time where there's only one or two courts that are even being played at all because everybody else is waiting for the next round to begin. So that is one factor. It's also a bracket system. So as the tournament progresses over the course of time, there are fewer and fewer people playing just like in the tennis tournament, right? They start with courts all over the city of Ohigh and ultimately they get down to there's three or four courts where people are playing and that's all that's going on. That's the same format that we're going

to have in pickle ball. So it is not this constant noise from 6:30 a.m. to 10 p.m. That's simply not accurate. Um, so I think that uh everything else that I would have said has been uh said I think more clearly by city staff, by uh legal counsel, by Miss Rivera, and I appreciate that. Um and and I really just want to end by um uh kind of referencing what uh is also in the administrative report and that is that what the city council what you guys are charged with doing tonight is to determine whether the city staff correctly applied the standards for issuance of the park facility use permit enumerated in the uh municipal code section 43.43. 403 and the existing city policies when approving the permit for the pickle ball tournament. Um, and honestly I I just I I understand the context. I've been at lots of these meetings. I understand the years of ranker over this, but the reality is as Mr. Harvey has said and Miss Rivera has said is that they there is a process here in the city. They followed that process. There are criteria that are considered. They considered all of those criteria. they came to a decision that this tournament was acceptable given everything that they had to consider and for you now to um to override that to uh come to a different conclusion honestly I think would be unconscionable. So I am asking you to um let the permit stand let the pickle ball tournament um proceed and we'll all be happy.

Thank you. Hold on. I know. I know. Let Let don't waste their time, Mr. Roth. Thank you.

Hi, my name is Randy Roth. I'm a citizen of Ohio and an enthusiastic but not very talented pickle ball player. I believe the recreation director and the city staff made the correct decision in granting the permit for the pickle ball. Further, I believe that the appeal against the city's decision to grant the permit is based upon either slippery reasoning or inadvertent misunderstanding. The document, the appeals document states that the city of Ohio has adopted a policy forbidding pickle ball at Libby Park. I am not aware of any law or ordinance stating that to that effect. When I look for some evidence to support that position, the closest I can locate is a finding by the pickle ball acoustic consultant that if pickle ball were to be permanently allowed at Libby Park, some sound. For 20 years, I was a consultant to city and state governments here in the United States and overseas. In the course of my consulting career, I made hundreds, maybe thousands of recommendations to my clients. When my clients received my finding recommendations, they sometimes followed my advice, and sometimes they didn't. I cannot think of a single instance where my recommendation was then enshrined as a law or ordinance. So for the appeal to build its case upon an acoustics consultant's finding is a category error and rhetorical. It is an elaborate legalistic monument built upon a flimsy foundation. I urge the council to recognize specious reasoning and to reject it. The city made the right decision granting the permit and should stick with this

decision. Thank you sir. Okay, thanks Al.

Good evening, staff, council, mayor, um Tim Kraut. I've got three little bullet points tonight that I want to discuss real quickly. The real reason why we're here, the real reason in my mind to me is that you have a group of people that feel over the years that this facility, this public park belongs to them. That's not the case. Okay, that's that's point number one. Um, point number two, zoning. Your own noise, your own noise ordinance exempts public quasi public districts or PL zones. Libby Park is in a PL zone. So, that's exempt from noise. In that PL zone, you have public and private schools, uh, colleges, universities, parks, playgrounds, and recreational centers. So, that's in the PL zone. Number three, the grant deed that I have here in front of me is dated March 27th, 1917 from Edward D. Libby and Florence Scott Libby. On the first page, basically on the first pa page, it's saying this property would be perpetuity used as a park and a place of recreation and pleasure. When you go to the middle of the grant deed on page five, it says public park and place for recreation and pleasure for the people of Ohhigh Valley. not one group but Ohigh Valley. It also says on

page five, not for private parties or corporations or private gain or advantage. When you go to the page seven where it kind of wraps up the grant deed, it states, "Make available for a tennis tournament, music festival, similar nonprofit, civic, culture, and recreational events and may reasonably continue or expand in the future. This document here is your foundation. You as the council, you have to make sure this is followed. And by doing that, you need to allow us to use the park. Thank you.

Well, well, well, guys, guys, guys, please, you're you're not helping the cause by clapping. So, got it. Go ahead.

Hi. Um, good evening, mayor and council members. My name is Linda Wilson and I am an Ohio Valley resident. I am the treasurer for the Ohio Valley Pickle Ball Incorporated. Uh to date, Ohigh Valley Pickle Ball has spent $8,854.78 preparing for our tournament scheduled for June 5th. We're excited that players both locally and from out of town have signed up and have paid to participate in this tournament. Many hours have been spent driving around to other pickle ball organizations and emailing to get the word out about the tournament. We've gone to local merchants and restaurants speaking with them about how to get involved with us. It's been a very positive experience. Many local merchants are excited for us and want to donate items and possibly contribute. Um, and I would also like to clarify any misunderstandings or rumors regarding Tim or Brenda Kraut making any money off of this tournament. They have not received any money, nor will they receive any money from the tournament. In fact, they have personally fronted the money for approximately half of the tournament cost to cover the deficit. All the donations that we've been receiving go directly into the Ohio Valley Pickle Ball Bank account. As most people who have ever been involved in organizing a function are well aware, um we would be fortunate if we even broke even. So, it's hard to believe that we're even having this conversation, but and I'm sorry for taking your time on this, but um thank you for hearing and um listening to us.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Nobody wants to take my advice. Um any is that the end of your presentation? Questions? I I one question I want to ask is um so on the numbers we had asked about that and so is is that number that's proposed in the permit is that an expression of what you imagine the whole weekend to be in total or in any instance of time would it be that many people in the park in total in so period of three days. Okay. So how do you see yourself not exceeding 150 in any instance per day? Yes. Yes. Okay. No, I'm asking a question. I get the answer. Okay. Other questions. Mayor.

Yes, please. I just wanted to thank Council Member Whitman because I know that council member and the rest of the council does understand the situations that we're in and we appreciate him making that statement and we obviously respect and will follow whatever direction the council. So, Oh, no. Thanks. I appreciate that. Any other questions? Now, when you I just this is a hypothetical question, I guess, but when you hear a conversation like the athletic club or moving around, what's your reaction to that? Is that a possibility or what what are you thinking? I haven't spoken to those people, right? I mean, if you're going by what they say, I don't know. I again, it's only I I just heard it tonight for the first time. So,

yeah, I I couldn't comment because I I don't have I haven't spoken to them. Okay. Any other questions? Um, I I'll just I just to clarify so that we can get this clear. Is there any adopted city ordinance, resolution, or formal policy that prohibits a facility use permit for a pickle ball event at Libby Park?

Not that I'm aware of. There was a recommendation from the parks and rec park parks and recreation commission but as an advisory body to the city council there um they only make recommendations and so unless a subsequent policy was adopted by council that we are not aware of um no policy was formally adopted by the council. Thank you. A follow-up question for me um what Mr. crowd was mentioning about the PL zone dis is that accurate Mr. Mr. Cyber isn't here I don't think could that statement be re you say again Mr. You said you said

the P zone is exempt from the noise. Lucas here. I don't see him in here. I can look it up. I I don't have to we would have to take a quick break and look. That's okay. That's it. Well, we can do that if we want to, but I was just curious about that. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right. So, our next step is rebuttal. So, five minutes for each rebuttal. The city Mr. River, do you have anything or Miss Burgess? None from the city attorney's office, but I will defer to staff. Okay. None.

And nothing that gave you any pots. Okay. And if there's any questions, speak up. Um I'm speaking to my colleagues here. And no, no, you're right. Um appellent rebuttal. Yes. Thank you, Miss Good evening, mayor and members of the council. My name is Karen Quimby and I'm representing the neighbors of Libby Park. And now I'm going to just f focus on three core issues that are at hand here. Policy integrity, legal compliance, and documented impacts followed by a clear solution. Um, this is not a routine special event. It contradicts city policy. The city presents this as a standard permit. It is not. The city has already made a clear evidence-based determination that pickle ball does not belong at Libby Park. The parks and recreation commission unanimously recommended against it. The city relied on a professional acoustic study to support that conclusion. The city attorney said that this option option was off the table and the city posted no pickle ball signs at the courts. That is policy in practice. If a use has been studied, rejected, and publicly disallowed that can now be approved by simply calling it a special event, then no city policy has real meaning. A special event permit is meant for otherwise appropriate uses, not to override a use the city has already determined is incompatible with this location. The permit does not meet the city's own legal standards. Under the municipal

code, a permit may only be issued if it does not interfere with public enjoyment or harm public health and welfare. This permit fails both. As you will hear in public comment, the noise will impact not only nearby residents but also people using Libby Park for quiet recreation and it exceeds the city's 150 person event limit. Uh Mr. Crow can say that only 150 people or fewer will be there on each day, but how do we know the permit? The the application said 320 people. Taken together, this permit contradicts city policy, ignores event limits, limits, and disregards the city's own findings. The noise impacts are already proven and severe. This is not speculative. The city's own acoustic study found that even two pickle ball courts at lower Libby exceed acceptable levels, noise levels. um and some courts could never be used because of that. 16 courts would produce noise that cannot be made acceptable. Yet, this proposal is for 16 courts. Um that is not comparable to tennis or music events. The city's own data makes that clear. And fourth, finally, there is a clear and reasonable solution here. It's not about cancelling the tournament. There are more than 20 dedicated pickle ball courts in the Ohio Valley. This tournament can be right-sized or distributed across multiple venues just as the Ohigh Valley Tennis Club uh operates their tournaments. It can be held as Soul Park, which by the way was specifically developed for pickle ball play. It is a facility for pickle ball. And the fact that nobody has discussed the fact that why isn't this event being held at Soul

Park is crazy. I mean, let's let's have a discussion about that. Um and the the athletic club has expressed willingness to talk to the pickle ball club to hold the event there. That's documented. Mr. Kraut seems uninterested in holding this event at only at the place of Libby Park. So he doesn't jump at that opportunity. You might have noticed. Um so in conclusion, this case is not about pickle ball. We all love pickle ball. It's about whether the city will follow its own studies, its own policies, and legal standards. The city studied this issue. It reached a clear conclusion. It communicated that conclusion to the public with no pickle ball signs. And now it's acting contrary to that without process and without justification. Those decisions cannot be set aside this easily. They are not policies. If those decisions cannot be can be set aside this easily, they are not policies, they are suggestions. We respectfully ask you to resend the permit, relocate the tournament to appropriate venues, and adopt a clear resolution prohibiting pickle ball at Libby Park courts going forward at a future meeting. Thank you.

Thank you. Um, any questions further grimby? Okay, thanks very much. And then a rebuttal from the applicant if there's any. Thank you. My name is Brenda Kraut. Hello.

And um I'm on the pickle ball uh Ohio Valley Pickle Ball, Inc. Uh board. And um I just wanted there's a couple of of misconceptions that um um council member Lang mentioned that pickle ball destroys the the courts or the tennis courts. Well, that is just not true. I mean, we wear the same shoes tennis players use. like um Miss Rivera pointed out, the tape that we've used to tape the court to use them, it does not that's what it's specifically made for. It does not leave a residue and um there is no I mean it's not like we're out there with hockey sticks or something. We're playing with a paddle that is similar to a tennis racket. We're hitting a ball. So um there is no damage that that is that is is a misconception.

Another thing too is that I know that um that 13-month study that the um the rec commission did in fact one of our um very good friends was on that that commission and she was the main person who did that study um Karen Wilson. She has since passed.

Um but she tried at that particular time when that study was completed, the commission did not have enough members or enough residents within the city to meet. Miss Wilson got up here in front of the council. It was a different council of course, but at least twice trying to present that because she had spent 13 months doing it and she was never never able to because the council would not hear her because she was not the full commission. So it is it is really not a total truth that that study was and that that um review by the the commission was really presented to and accepted by this this council. Another thing that has been pointed out so much up here is the noise issue. This is a temporary temporary event. We live on Saddle Lane and we hear the music festival. We hear the um rock concerts that are there on the on the weekends. We hear the tennis tournament. We hear the tennis tournament with their their speakers and stuff. I mean, we're not right next door. We are at least a half a mile away and there's mountain and stuff. So you cannot, no one in um that is being totally honest can say that this tournament is going to create more noise at a higher level for a longer period of time than any of those other events that are there. And I'm not I'm not complaining and saying don't have any of those events. That's

what that park is for. Just like Tim pointed out, that was the total intent by the Libby when they they granted that to to the city. And in that um in that grant deed, it says that if these stipulations are not upheld by the city, which is you, you're the ones assigned to uphold that then it can revert back to the back to the heirs. Whether there are any heirs, I have no idea. But I mean, I don't think that the council should risk losing that part. and have have some air show up and say you can't be denying people use of that part just because the tennis people want to think that that belongs to them. Nowhere in that grant deed did it does it say this park is being given to the city exclusively for tennis. It does not say that. It doesn't say it. You can read it. It's in your packet. So, I I really hope that you will all remember that you represent everybody in this city, not just your friends and the people that I know have lobbyed you. Another thing I wanted to to point out and question is why is Karen Quimby up here? She is not a member. She does not live she by the by the uh park. She doesn't live anywhere in this neighborhood.

Let me ask you to pause. Any questions uh at this stage? Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow. I know a lot of passion here. Um I'll move to public comments now of which I have many cards. Celeste, I don't know how to pronounce your last name. And how do I in instruct me? Mattac. Mattac. Celeste. Mativacc. Got it. And then I have uh Katarina Mata after that. And then I have Larry Stangold. Thank you.

Hello, Mayor Andy and council members and others. Um my name is Celeste Matisc. Now you all know how to say it. And uh I'm a homeowner um right at Libby Park and from my home I see the upper courts and the lower courts. So, I've had 30 years of living there and um I can tell you guys a lot of stuff that goes on there that nobody sees, you know, but um I'm here to respectfully request that there is a reconsideration of the three-day planned pickle ball tournament. um because it's directly in not only my home's view but you know all around and I understand that community events are we love them I I hear them all whether we like them or not they're there but uh it it's really the prolonged and the elevated noise level um to disrupt us and the residents and so I'm asking to reconsider for another location and um I am a homeowner along with my brother and sister and you'll hear from my sister now. Thanks for listening.

Thank you. Yeah, let's try not to clap when everybody comes up if it's okay. Let's just keep moving on.

Thank you. Hello. Hello everyone. Um, I have a to say something. Thanks.

Thank you. Hello, Mayor Andy and members of the council. I am Katarina Mana and I am a neighbor of Libby Park along with my brother Ivan. Ivan can't be here today because he is disabled and homebound. I'm disabled also. We have caregivers who come in daily to help us along with my sister Ph. about the noise of this pickle ball tournament. We are worried that we won't be able to go outside for three days and we'll be trapped in our house. My sister has read the city's sound study and told me that the noise from the pickle ball will even come into our house. But the windows and doors closed. This is not right. And I don't like it either. I don't care. We live with a lot of events at Ly Park, of course, but they last for two two hours and often is music. Even if I don't like the music, I know it will be over in two hours.

Three days of really loud pickup bar noise will cause my brother and I great distress. We ask the city council to please stop the permit for the tournament. Thank you. Thank you for coming up. And thank you very much for me to be here with you guys. Thanks for being here.

I appreciate it. Um, Larry Stangle, please come up. And then Denise Skippy Kon, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, and then Katrina Rice Schmidt, please. Fine. Unless you have us into uh, Slippery Slope. Sure. Um, spending a million dollars for courts in Soul Park, a lawsuit to have tennis, have pickle ball brought on by our city councelor who's obviously voting one way, and that's fine. having to buy the property next door because of pickle ball most likely because it probably wouldn't have happened maybe. So we spent millions on taking care of this problem and it was all about sound. That's what it's all about. You want to have pickle ball there for the special event today? Great. How come he didn't go to Soul to Sul Park? That's what we did it for, not for anybody else. I don't play pickle ball. I don't play tennis. But we just spent $600 million for this. He didn't know about Ohigh Valley, whatever.

600,000. 600 millions of dollars. We spent a lot. Scroll. Okay. We spent a lot. Okay. Okay. Uh, didn't know about Ohigh Valley uh Athletic Club. Come on. Come on. You're playing pickle ball here. You know where all the pickle ball courts are. Have it there. Um the constitution of California says all people are by nature free and independent and have inalable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, protecting property and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness and privacy.

Being irritated and it is irritating constantly. It's a nice game, but to be there constantly is not bringing on happiness. It certainly doesn't bring on enjoyment, right? I enjoy golf. It's not fun. Okay, I don't have happiness, right? I'm okay. But this I mean, we're just creating another problem. They have their event. They have it at Sul Park. They have it somewhere else. We forbid o uh what do you call it? Pickle ball there and call it a day. I'm sorry. Okay. But the noise constancy, I mean, maybe you can make a deal with the tennis people. I don't know. But right now, or they can raise the money and build sound walls around the tennis courts, 6 feet, 8 feet, 12 feet, 20 feet high. It can be like Danamora prison. Okay, but that's okay. But we've had enough $4 million or more. And this has been going on. So, please don't give them the give them the permit, split it up, but make it conditional and that's the end of it, right? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Stangle. Uh Denise Skippy Kan, please tell me how to pronounce your last name. Katrina Rice Schmidt and then Danny Everett, please. How do you pronounce your last name? Cowan. Cowan. Cowan.

Cowan. Okay, got it. Good evening, Mayor Council. My name is Denise Cowan, but everybody knows me as Skippy. Isn't Libby Park a public park? According to the grant deed, Libby Park is to be used for recreation for the people of the Ohio Valley. Permits can be issued to nonprofit organizations, and the Ohio Pickle Ball Group is a nonprofit organization. With that said, I don't understand why we're even here. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Um, Katrina, that's okay. Try try try your best. Katrina Rice Schmidt, Danny Everett, and then Mark Hapac, please.

Hello. Good evening. My name is Katrina Rice Schmidt and I live in downtown Ohhigh. I'm an avid tennis fan and tennis player. And first of all, I want to make it clear that the tennis community as a group uh is not against the sport of pickle ball. Many of us play both. We play tennis and pickle ball. Ohigh tennis at Libby Park has been a tradition since 1896. That's 130 years at Libby Park before the incorporation of the city of OHigh itself. The Ohigh tennis tournament is now nearing its 125th tournament year. Planning for that started yesterday. Um, and the tennis tournament and the tennis courts are designated city of Ohio landmarks and it's landmark number 11 for the city of Ohio. Over 130 years, the Ohigh Valley Tennis Club has put substantial financial resources, over $600,000 for upkeep of the courts, um, just since in the last 25 years, um, and sweat equity into the Libby uh, park courts for use in the city parks and wreck tennis programs, um, for junior tennis events, for clinics, for various tournaments throughout the year, and the world famous annual tennis tournament which happens to be in April. The investment of the tennis club for purposebuilt tennis courts re results in pristine courts that draw worldclass tennis to Ohigh and provide Ohigh residents the opportunity to play tennis on well-maintained public courts that anyone can play on. any resident of Ohigh can play on those courts, play tennis. Um, and not many other cities in

the nation can offer these pristine courts because of the money put into those courts by the tennis club. Um, for this reason, the purpose-built tennis courts should be used for tennis purposes only. The issue of prohibiting pickle ball has been before the city since 2017. In 2023, the city council was presented a report commissioned by the Parks and Recreation Commission, including a sound study which concluded that pickle ball should not be played at Libby Park for many reasons, mainly because the loud noise from plastic pickle balls hitting hard pickle ball paddles and the hard ground and the prohibitive cost estimate to mitigate that sound. After the report was presented to city council, it was clear at that meeting that city council would pursue other solutions for pickle ball to be played elsewhere. In 2024, signs were posted at Libby Park tennis courts that state no city. Kina,

let me ask you to pause if I can. We get we get what you're saying. Thank you. I unfortunately it creates chaos when we ask when we allow that. So if is it absolutely required um I'm gonna ask you not to. That's okay. Trust me chaos has ensued when I give people more time. Thank you. Next please. Um I know. Yes. Danny Everett, Mark Hapich, and then uh Lesie. It's G A C. Okay. Thank you. Yes, sir.

Good evening. My name is Danny Everett. Um, I'm here. Ohigh is a special place and what makes Ohigh so special are the people here in Ohio. It's kind of sad that I'm here. I'm sitting in the audience and I know this is a very passionate thing. And what's I hope what comes out of this is people will be able to come back together and kind of see where each person's coming from because some of the venom and some of some of the opposition of each on each side of people the things you hear people mumbling the things you hear people saying it just feels like a fight that really should not happen. Um, when you think about the tennis court, I'm a a captain of a USA team and reserving the courts sometimes are very difficult being able to get courts and to have a court um reserve for a court that no matter what you say, if you go and you look and take a tour of places that's had pickle ball on a tennis court and the tape that they say that put that put no marking. If you go over to Ohio Valley in the spa right now and look at some of their tennis courts that have those lines on there, you still see those lines on there. No matter what they say, there's still damage done to tennis courts when you put down adhesive tape on a tennis court. There was a time when the children kids in the neighbor in in this community would come on the tennis court and some still do and they would ride their bikes and their skateboard on the court and cause damage with scarring and things like that. It was not their fault. They had nowhere to go. We built a skate park for them and that for the most part has really resolved that issue. And if you would see someone riding a skateboard on a tennis court now, you would think, "Oh, that that's very rooted inconsiderate."

Particularly when you have a facility designed for that actual activity to have a pickle ball court now on tennis courts when you have built a designated area and designated courts for that event. It just really seems like why are we fighting? And it's not that we feel as tennis players that we own those sports. I I've played pickle ball. It's a great sport. I play pickle ball on a pickle ball court. I play tennis on a tennis court. It seems like a very simple simple solution. And you have to ask yourself, why are pickle ball players not wanting to play at a pickle ball facility? Why are pickle ball players not wanting to take up an offer of a facility that has great courts and a great opportunity to play on, not jumping at to go see what they can work out there as opposed to fighting to play on the tennis court. Thank

Thank you, sir. Um Mark Happich, please. And then Lesie Gash and Susan Stifleman. Thank you. And you thought you got rid of me. You didn't. Anyhow, uh I'm Mark Havoc again, president of the Ohio Valley Tennis Club. I want to reiterate as a taxpaying resident of Ohigh. We just spent $500,000 to build the pickle ball courts for pickle ball players. I have neighbors. I have friends. I don't play pickle ball. Maybe I will one day, but I'd sure like to see those f facilities used for what they were built for. Uh, as mentioned before, we just finished up our 124th year of our tennis tournament, one of the oldest tennis tournaments in in the country. And, uh, we use all a lot of different courts, not just Libby Park. So, I think that uh uh in the interest of the pickle ball people, maybe they can uh take a page out of our book and and and do the same thing. Um I'm not I'm not I'm I'm I'm I'm totally for pickle ball because I think it's great. It's getting people out to do some exercise that they normally can't play tennis. So, I'm excited about that. But, uh I would sure like again to see those pickle ball courts used for what they were built for. Um with as far as park parks and recreation department um under the direction of our city manager, we're not heading in the right direction of the 2024 discussion at parks and recreation commission and city council, but instead and instead made an in-house policy counter to those discussions that would allow pickle ball tournaments at at at Libby Park as a special event. They keep coming back as a special event. Never heard that. never heard that term until a few months ago.

So, um I would just ask that city council just hear our plea. Uh see the big picture. We're not against pickle ball. Want to reiterate that again. Like to see all of you come back next meeting with some kind of a formal resolution prohibiting pickle ball at Libby Park once and for all. Thank you for hearing me. Thank you. And I just maybe want not not for you. I want to note so the essentially the appellant is presenting again. So if the applicant wants to also present for their time I want to honor that as well. Oh thank you. Okay. Um Lesie I don't know how to pronounce your last name. Please come up and then Susan uh Stifleman and then Chad Res.

Hi Lesie. Gosh.

Gosh. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Um, and I spoke several weeks ago about being denied court reservations for that particular weekend of the 5th through the 7th uh for the lower uh Libby tennis courts. I am a captain of a USA team and I was looking for those specific dates and I was denied. So, of course, I was very upset because that forced me to speak to the other captain and just rearrange the dates. So to me it just seemed a bit unfair because I was being denied access to tennis courts as a tennis player while there uh those courts were designated for a uh pickle ball tournament. It just didn't seem fair to me. And there are signs on the eight tennis court on each of those tennis courts prohibiting pickle ball and each bearing the city hall logo. So I was just you know I don't know what to say. I do you see the hypocrisy? So anyway, um there are a total of 13 dedicated pickle ball courts at uh Soul Park, City Hall, Lake Citus, and 20 if you count OVAC. Um but there are just eight tennis courts in the Ohio Valley, eight public tennis courts. People like me, where do we go? If we can't access those courts, where where could I have gone to play? Right? So that's that's the point I want to make. And at Libby Park, we have many uh USA matches, we have world team tennis, we have clinics for adults, children, it just goes on. Many weekend players, especially on the weekends. Um so if the tennis courts are allocated to pickle ball, like I said, where do we go? Where do tennis players go? So why isn't pickle ball being played on pickle ball courts? That's all I ask. So, I hope you recognize that

Libby Park is the is not the only venue available for pickle ball tournaments. Like uh previously uh Mark said that we just held the Ohigh tennis tournament and we utilized courts at Libby, Nordolf, Villanova, the Ohigh Valley Inn, the athletic club. If the pickle ball club wishes to host its tournament, it should consider following the tennis uh model and collaborate with these entities to use their courts. So, I respectfully request that the city reconsider the proposed pickle ball tournament in June and all future pickle ball play at Libby Park. Thanks. Thank you,

Mayor. If I may. Yes, please. to your previous comment if to the extent that the applicants have a representative who would like to make one more three minute comment we would allow that but of course but I do think it's we need to ensure that because the appellant and the applicant have already had 25 minutes um to present their perspective on this um beyond that I would I would recommend that we do not allow those same individuals to comment again yeah We should have stopped that but happened. Um, Susan Stifleman, please. And then Chad Reese and then Ian Mandle. Thanks.

Hello everyone. Susan Stiflin. Um, I am very happy owner of a home on South Signal Street. It's a haven. It's a refuge. It's heaven on earth for us. And we pinch ourselves every day that we get to live there. It's up the slope from the park. We knew when we bought our home that there would be concerts, there would be tennis tournament, there would be activities in the park, band stand things, movies, and we're fine with all of it. Pickle ball is in its own category. There's nothing that compares with the sound of that whack against that racket. whatever kind of racket you use or ball, it's painful to hear even and and we can hear it from the the city the city hall courts as well, but there's enough distance ups slope. So the courts that you're, you know, that they're considering, I've had people, you know, we would have to leave for three days. It's so awful the sound. And we've been vilified and it and it's been suggested that we don't want people to have their fun or that we knew when we moved there that things might be happening because we're adjacent to a park, but nothing like this. This is in its own category. And I have to Why? You know, these are our friends and neighbors. We love pickle ball. We have friends who play. Why? Why would you impose that kind of awfulness on your on your neighbors when there are other options? Why would you sanction something that is clearly in violation of our welfare? However, you want to broaden the description. You could broaden the description of recreation to

include all kinds of of things that shouldn't be considered. So, I would just say if this was next to your home, if it was adjacent to your home and there's lots of home, it's different from the athletic club. There's this park is in a residential neighborhood surrounded by home. You wouldn't want it. You'd be in my position. You'd be standing here imploring the people who have the ability to to safeguard your enjoyment of your of your of your place where you live. Um, we're not against it and we're we don't want we just don't understand. There's so many lawsuits over this across the country. There's no question about the damage and the impact of the noise and no way to mitigate and three days. However many courts are in use at any given time, it's three days. It's unfair. It's unkind. And it there are many of us here, some who have come, some who can't come. But please consider the needs of those in this area and um deny the the use of the courts.

Thank you. Uh Chad Res, Ian Mundle, and then Paul Stanton, please.

Good evening, Mayor. Hi, council members. Um, I'm Chad Rest, captain of the Ohigh men's USA tennis team and a volunteer for the Ohio tennis tournament. Um, members of our tennis team practice regularly at the Libby tennis courts. For many years, I could schedule a match with friends or teammates during peak hours and feel confident that a court would be available. In the past three years, I've noticed that the tennis courts have become increasingly in demand due to growing tennis community, both visiting and local. These resources are consistently in use by a tennis player. During peak hours, players are often waiting for courts and sometimes do not have access to them at all due to special events. My son and his junior tennis community recently volunteered as ball kids for over 20 hours at the Ohio Tennis Tournament. They love tennis. They practice three days a week at the courts and should have priority access to these courts. Our USA team cannot play tennis on pickle ball courts. My son and his friends cannot play tennis on pickle ball courts. I don't see why pickle ball players should be able to take over tennis courts when they have been so generously supported in building their own by the Ohio community. There are now 10 public pickle ball courts in Ohio. There's only eight public tennis courts. If mistakes were made in building the new pickle ball facilities, the solution cannot be to hand over tennis facilities and remediation. Now more than ever, Libbyy's tennis courts should be honored and protected as they were intended as part of the original land gift to the city. It's a public facility for tennis. Those are tennis courts to be used by tennis players for the sport of tennis. Full stop. respectfully ask that you uh reconsider this application.

Thank you. Thank you, sir. Um Ian Mandle, Paul Stanton, and then Randy Haney, please. Hi.

Hey guys. Um I am really fired up today, so I hope to get through everything that I have to say. Um first of all, one of the reasons I'm fired up is because I'm pro tournament. I'm pro pickleball tournament after pickle ball courts. Okay, that's where that belongs. Um, I was supposed to speak on the sound issue. It's, you know, it's evident that was really well covered today. Um, and I hope our our board will allow me to go just slightly off script here for a little bit. Um, you know, I was going to cover the sound study, uh, the obvious ignorance of it. Um, the disregard for it and, uh, you know, now we just learned it wasn't even filed. That's really interesting. Um, to to refute something that was said earlier in the pickle ball presentation, uh, they are wrong saying that the study forbid permanent use. I believe the wording that was used was uh no pickle ball on an even interim basis. Uh I know you guys don't go back and read the transcripts or relist, but that is the words that was used. Um you know, we're arguing over how to define special event uh define enjoyment. How about we define what a tennis court is? Tennis court, right? Um how about enforcing pickle ball on pickle ball courts? That's a novel idea. Uh it's as simple as that. Um I don't play tennis on pickle ball courts. Uh, we're not displacing basketball players for the Ohigh tennis tournament, are we? Is basketball a special event? Can they rent out a tennis court? I don't know. Maybe. That's what seems to be going on here. Skateboarding, that's on one of the signs that they can't people can't do on these courts. You know, this war over pickle ball, it's it's waged across the entire US between pickle ball and tennis. This doesn't need to happen. All they have to do is play on their own courts. It's really as simple as that. Uh, in other areas, okay, maybe there's tennis courts that don't get used. Chad very well explained, "Our tennis courts get used." All eight courts were used yesterday after the tournament, right? That's what this tournament does. It inspires tennis players. It inspires the youth to go out and play tennis. That is the mission of the Ohio Valley Tennis Club is to inspire the youth to play tennis. And we are a tennis town. Okay? We were voted one of the best tennis

towns in the US. That's why we have the lower Libby courts, not because of pickle ball, right? I don't doubt that the pickle ball community will now try to say that the tennis tournament violates city policy because they've shown zero regard for anybody in the community except for themselves. You heard them pointing out the sound of the tennis tournament. You don't have to yell. We hear you. Just talk. You heard them pointing out that the sound of the tennis tournament this year was a problem. You heard them bringing that up, right?

Tournament brought in 3,500 fans this year, 650 volunteers, nearly a thousand players. This all stimulates the economy. This is part of the fabric of Ohhigh. Okay, this has been here since 1895. At this point, I don't even care what the policy says. Pass a policy tonight that says no pickle ball at the Libby Park courts. This is not a one-time thing. That's why they're calling it the first tournament in Ohio. This started with Ohigh Day. We've tried to appeal that as a tennis community. The antagonism is onesided. It is the pickle ball community refusing to take no for an answer at Libby Park just like they did at the courts here at city hall.

Thank you. Um Paul Stanton, please. Randy Haney and then Renee Roth. Paul had to leave. Okay. Randy Haney, please. Renee Roth and then Lynn Costelli. Hello sir. Good evening, council. God, I miss this.

Yeah. 6 o'clock to 8:40. You guys are crazy. Um, first of all, Mrs. Burgess. Yes. Great job. First time meeting you. Great job of stating what we're here for. Facts. You stated the facts. Clearly stated them. That's what you were here to are here tonight for, to hear the fact. I started out with this pickle ball thing I don't know how many years ago and I understand the emotion that involved in it clearly but we're here tonight for fact and the facts are we have a deed that states what the use of that facility is for and it's for all not limited not restricted it's for all so that's the first thing I would look at what's the true intent when that family deed this property to this community. The second thing is what's the ordinance that the city is supposed to be following? And right now that's gray. Right now that is based on the fact that it was conducted hearings in 2023 and hearings conducted in 2018 and 2017 and who knows and who knows. But I'm just saying you guys are here tonight not to settle the dispute of a group of people in a sandbox that for some reason can't play together. You're here to look at the fact and the facts are real clear. They are in favor of the applicant to use that facility on a special special use basis one time. If you like to come back or direct staff to bring back a different policy. That's for another day and another time. It's not what you're here for tonight. So, I respectfully ask you look at the facts

and leave the emotions where they should be on the chairs or out the door. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Haney. Um Renee Roth, please, Lynn Costelni, and then uh Jamie Santana. Good evening, council and staff. I I like following Randy Haney because he's experienced, he's been here, and he knows what he's talking about. This is a difficult issue. Um, first of all, I think you need to look at what was asked for in this appeal. They didn't just ask to sit down at the table and say, "Let's work this out." They said, "Resend the permit, refund all the fees, and adopt a resolution permanently banning pickle ball play on all tennis courts." So, that doesn't seem very welcoming. Or let's try to sit down and work this out. This is like we don't tolerate pickle ball in our courts. And that feels a little strong and heavy-handed to me. So when I s saw that I was really shocked um because I agree the parks are for public purposes. The city does have a responsibility to follow the law. The city does have a responsibility to to basically follow what your policies and your laws say. And you have to say what is allowed and what isn't allowed. And if this is within those parameters, you have to allow it. You can't deny it. It was a shall. You shall authorize that permit. So it's really unfortunate that pickle ball is again being used as a political football that divides the community and weakens trust in local government. That's really what I see happening.

We've seen it before and this is part of a pattern. When we see well organized opposition such as by Miss Karen Quimby who comes up and mobilizes quickly, amplifies concerns and escalates them into a sense of a crisis. That momentum is then used to push demands that go far beyond balance. Demands that effectively seek to eliminate or severely restrict the lawful public use of our public parks. for a special event. That's what they're asking to happen tonight. I I honestly think that's just very unreasonable. Measure O, let's talk about Measure O. Remember when the voters approved measure O and in November of 24, those same types of tactics were used and the people had to go doortodoor, knock on doors and say, "Please, will you allow us to play in Libby Park or in in City Hall Park Courts?" And what did the voters say? Yes, it was close. But the voter said, "Yes, we want you to play in in the park. We want you to play pickle ball. Please heed what the voters have already voted for and take note that this is what we're

Thank you. M uh Lynn Costelni, uh Jamie Santana, and then uh Body Comb. Oh, Mark Body. Sorry. Thanks. Didn't see them. Hello. Hi. Hi. I'm Lynn. I'm a resident. I live on Summer and Signal. And I've been sitting there. I wasn't going to talk tonight, but I thought that after listening to everyone's statements, I just wanted to offer a few points that I thought was important to highlight.

The first thing is that everyone keeps saying the park, like the park is for everybody. Park is for everybody. I think I am of the the mind that we need to respectfully request the use for the permit to be rescended. And I'm saying that we're not talking about the park. We're talking about tennis courts. We're talking about courts for a sport. The second thing that I wanted to call out is that it came up here tonight for the first time that I'm hearing that the city actually doesn't have an official stance on the policy of if the pickle ball is allowed on Libby courts. But when you go down to the courts, there's a sign from the city saying they're not allowed. And this city council paid 600,000 plus dollars to install pickle ball courts. So, it's like if there's no policy, why were these really big changes made? Right? The second thing is that the first gentleman that spoke for the pickle ball committee actually said, and I wrote this down, he agreed that it's been established that there's no pickle ball at Libby. He said that in his argument, but we're sitting in a room talking about whether pickle ball could be played at Libby. It's like Groundhog's Day. It keeps going on and on and on and on. It's crazy to listen to. I can't listen to my boyfriend talk about this anymore. I plead to you guys about this.

The second thing is that he made the point that this is one time, right? Just one time in all of history they need to play on Libby courts. Okay. But then the other two gentlemen from the pickle ball committee went on to then ask, "No, it's not one time. They are asking you guys to allow pickle ball at Libby forever in perpetuity." So, what is the angle? And then I will leave you with we just talked about Measure O. Didn't the city hall courts get closed? Someone here made that decision. You guys made that decision. I don't know. The the court was closed and then we all had to vote on it. I voted on it and now it's back open. Do you guys see a pattern? Who is making the decisions at where pickle ball gets played? Thanks.

Thank you. Um, Jamie Santana, please. And then Mark Body.

Hello.

You got props? I got props. Mayor, council, staff, thanks for hearing me. Um, my wife and I have traveled all over and we cannot find a better city, Ohio. This is really the coolest city. It really is the coolest city we've ever lived in. We live here in town and we are in favor of allowing the tournament to take place. We are huge tennis supporters and sponsors. I'm huge pickle ball supporter sponsor. Um the talk about Soul Park courts is they're not in the city of Ohhigh. they're in the county and the synergy we have when people come to town and um park and walk. It's wonderful. The tennis tournament is the coolest tournament my wife and I have ever been to and have supported. It's awesome. Pickle ball is not it's a weekend event falls within the criteria of what's allowed. So, let's not hate. Let's participate. Thank you. Thank you. Mark bodycomb, please. Did you you were speaking though before?

I'm I'm the uh applicant uh Republic. They got one. Oh, yes. Right. Okay. Come please. I'm understood. Thank you. Sorry, mic. No worries.

And also I want to do is just clarify a few things. Um one, you asked a question about the number of people that would be there on a daily basis. I don't think that was clearly answered. It will absolutely be under 150. There was a question is how do they know that? It has to do with the there are different you know there are mixed doubles playing one day, women playing one day, men playing another day. The 300 is the total uh actually it's really 200 of you know 220 total participants divided up between three days. So that maximum number that is being alleged that is being violated that is not true. That is not what's going to happen. Um uh number two is to why don't we play pickle ball on pickle ball courts. We do. We do all the time. I play at city. I play at soul. U my wife and I played in a tournament in Santa Barbara last year and there's another one in about three weeks and it has 300 plus pickle ball players that come and play on the tennis courts, the municipal tennis courts in Santa Barbara. Why do they do that? Because there aren't enough pickle ball courts to run a pick a tournament. Um, and they use the pickle ball the tennis uh courts and we've been there and it works out just fine. There's temporary courts that are put up. There's tape that's put down. There's no damage to the courts. That kind of stuff. So, the qu the answer as to why are we doing it at uh at uh Libby is because of logistics. It's really and now again I don't didn't know anything. We didn't know anything. I haven't been involved in in uh organizing it, but as far as, you know, whether the uh racket club, you know, offered, don't know what that's going to cost or don't know any of that. But the whole uh rationale behind having the tournament at Lower Libby is you've got a single location where enough courts can be temporarily um uh crafted to allow the tournament to

take place. Um and you can't do that at Soul Park. You can't do that at city. You can't do that out at uh at the lake. It's simply not possible. So, that's just a very simple pragmatic explanation as to why is the tournament being uh proposed and uh and the permit, you know, requested to be held at uh at Libby Park. So, I just wanted to clarify those things. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. That's my last comment card. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um anybody online? Mayor, we still have 10 attendees with no raised hands. Okay. So, let's just ask them one time and take the time to ask them if they raise their hand to speak on our item number eight, pickle ball. And we do have Bill Miley.

Okay. And speaking to James and Christian it in the back, could you please grant me access to let Mr. Miley in? One moment. Okay. There we go. Mr. Miley, you can unmute and you have the floor. You can hear me? Yes.

Okay. My comments are in support of the appeal. Pickle ball is a noisy sport. It's also a national discussion. Tennis is a relatively quiet sport. Pickup ball has impact and impulse sounds which go above 1,00 to,200 hertz in sound waves. The question should be about the character of the sound we're dealing with. Tennis does not create pickle ball sounds. Pickle ball creates impulse impact sounds, rapid repetitive sounds. When people are in a competitive environment with pickle ball, they hit harder, creating higher sound levels, higher impact and impulse sounds can be compared to a small caliber handgun. And this is what we're going to hear in June all the time because people are very competitive. Few years ago, our group, my group, Citizens for a Sound pickle ball policy counted in one

hour, four courts, 1700 hits, impulse, and impact. If you have 16 pickle ball courts, there can be up to 64 players and 1700 an hour for one court. 7,000 hits per hour can happen. The pickup ball club has restricted the type of ball to be used, but not the battle. In spite of their praise for pickle ball 12 battles, they're going to allow any kind of battle to be used because that's what the tournament players want. Please consider it's illogical to allow this to continue. The $13,000 study showed it's a big impact. And there's another public health hazard that hasn't been discussed. There'll be about 220 players, 100 spectators, and no extra public portable toilets. I read that in the application. They are not providing for public health hygiene needs right now. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. No more on Zoom, Mayor. Okay, five minute break. We'll be right back.

two do check. One, two. Are we ready? Okay. Welcome back all ready fellas. Okay, let's do it. We're back. Who would like to start the conversation? I'll start.

Yes, please go. Okay. So, um, and I think that this is one of those this is this has this case has complications um, because it wasn't explicitly written as a policy because of the staff changes. I think that's one consideration. But if we ignore that and we just look at these standards right here at A through F on page two of three, if we just look at that, I think there's a really strong case that was made tonight and that was made in the sound study and I sat through those parks and reccks commission meetings and um and was actually the liazison when this when that sound study was presented and when the parks and recck commission had that conversation And they made it very clear in the st sound study and yes Karen Wilson was there um maybe she rest in peace that it was very clear that that they advised that pickle ball not be played at Libby courts. And so I think because of that we have we have a real uh interference with the public enjoyment of the park. And it was said too that what they're talking about using is the courts and not the overall park. Um and so I am I am in favor of um of appealing the decision. and um and we heard that there were other possibilities for where the tournament could be moved and um and it you know it's difficult. I've had planned events and had to cancel them for one reason or another. And I know it's stressful and so it's very difficult for me to to make this this

call and and decide this, but I think that there's just a strong case for for not having it at Libby at uh Libby. Misel, please.

Yeah. So, I think there's no case being made that it should not be at Libby. Um, I think that, you know, what's going to happen is people are going to fall however they fall. Um, there was no policy that that sound study was never presented to or approved by the park and Rex because they weren't meeting at that time and Karen just came here and presented it and we barely listened to her. So, that having been said, um, I'm going to go ahead and and make the points that I'm going to make. Um, you know, our role is not to decide whether we like or dislike pickle ball. Everybody likes pickle ball. while we heard that. Um but we have a legal standard before us that is not up for you know my opinion or I heard at a council meeting this that or the other thing. Um there's a legal standard and it's section 4 4-3.43 403 and it sets out the criteria and um you know I I guess there's enough ambiguity in the criteria that you can fall however you want to fall but there really isn't in my opinion a lot of ambiguity in the criteria and the word used and I made this point is shall so unless you can you can say that um any of these are are uh are found to be not reasonable or not True. Um, you know, we shall go ahead and and approve this. Um, there, as you mentioned, there is no adopted city policy prohibiting this permit. To say that we all agreed at the dis say that we all agreed at the dis. We all have different ideas of what a policy is going to be, what it's going to look like, what it's going to entail. Until it's actually brought in front of us, it's not a policy. Um, we had, you know, there's no way to say that there was a policy or an agreement as to what that policy would look like. Um, I'm going to just keep moving. Um, and that distinction matters. You know, if the

council had adopted a formal policy banning pickle ball at Libby Park, we would be in a different position right now. But we did not. The recreation manager was asked to evaluate a facility use application under the existing code, and she did so. Um the appellant is essentially asking us to create a new policy retroactively and apply it to an appellant who has followed every existing rule. That is not how this permitting should work. Um the procedural compliance is not in dispute. Uh they filed their fees, they got what they needed to get. So there's nothing there that can that can uh warrant throwing this out. Um addressing the noise concern. Um the heart of this appeal is noise and I understand that concern. Um, but I have to apply and we should apply the standard as it is written. Criteria A and B of section 4-3.403 asks whether the proposed activity will unreasonably unreasonably interfere with or distract from public enjoyment and public health, welfare, safety, and recreation. The key word is unreasonably. I have difficulty, and I think we should all have difficulty concluding that a three-day event with no amplified sound constitutes an unreasonable interference when we regularly pro permit multi-day events at Libby Park that generate equal or greater noise. Um, I love the Ohigh Tennis Tournament. I was a competitive tennis player. Um, you know, it runs four or five days. The sound is everywhere. The people are everywhere. It's great. I would never say that it's not great. It's great. Um, and I also want to say that, you know, the nature of sound perception is incredibly subjective. Um, you know, I want to just address something that's been presented throughout the discussion, but has not been stated directly. Sound perception is inherently subjective. what one

person considers intolerable and/or torturous as we've heard many times, another considers normal sound of recreation in a public park. The legal standard in our code, the legal standard in our code asks whether this activity will unreasonably interfere and unreasonably requires an objective benchmark, not individual sensitivity, not to something that we believe other people might, you know, have an effect of. Um, and you know, finally, uh, well, you know, And there is no quality of noise in front of us. And finally that sound study was for ongoing permanent play. And even the intermit the interim was for for permanent play all day every day. Interim in that case meant three months during summer as I recall that conversation. Um, so you know, I just can't see how any one of these six criteria is not met.

We can do please.

Thanks. We we have in our packet some details about not subjective but actual you know findings. I'm going to quote from page 234. These from studies performed by POMA, an acoustical society. And they say physical symptoms were noted almost as frequently as psychological symptoms. So not subjective but physical symptoms. While recognizing that physical and psychological symptoms often interrelate in this study, physical health effects are defined as a physical perception by the individual. Psychological health effects are defined as an emotional perception by the individual. Physical health effects from pickle ball noise accounted for 45.9% of all comments. Of these almost half 46% were neurological. A quarter 25% were cardiovascular and another quarter 25% involve sleep disruption as as shown in figure five. And then it goes on to say psychological health effects from pickle ball noise represented 54.1% of the total comments. Of these, just more than half the comments, 51% communicated severe distress or used the term torture. Almost a quarter, 23.9% experienced a sense of trauma.

So this this is where I was when we heard this, you know, three years ago. and the the person who said, "My house is my haven." And that that was at the core of what I felt like, you know, we should be doing because a person who has a home should have the ability to retreat to that home and not feel these emotions like, you know, torture from the sound that's happening. What we got from the sound study, Mr. Miley mentioned this, is that pickle ball noise is recognized as being very much different than other types of noise because of the percussive if it it kind of impacts not everybody but certain people. It like impacts them to their core. And so I do want to go back and say that I don't fault the director or the city manager. Um because one, I don't think they had those medical studies in front of them for them to say, "Hey, there's an actual, you know, uh public health u and welfare component to this." But I 100% believe that there is a 100% that that there actually is a component of health and welfare of individuals. Now um I also was you know as far as whether what we heard from the parks and recck commission. So

they they created a ad hoc committee and the ad hoc committee did present their findings and their findings were all based upon that consulting firm and and what they said and they talked about the Libby courts in that sound in those sound findings and they said you know basically it would be extremely difficult to mitigate the noise. So when we when they gave us recommendations about the city hall courts, they talked about the noise mitigation that we should do for those courts. Well, you know, we've never um really done that, but no noise mitigation has been done to protect from the Libby courts. And that is why I voted for the $600,000, you know, project out at Soul Park to build those pickle ball courts because it was the one and only place that provided a public place for people to conduct pickle ball without it impacting the neighbors because the neighbors were so far distant.

Those are my comments. No, thanks. Yeah, Miss M. anything.

What a mess. You know, this is a terrible situation. I've heard both sides. Um, you know, somebody's going to be upset because it's not going to, you know, be what they wanted the outcome to be, and I understand that. Having all of this information, documentation, but not having it implemented, it's like, oh my go, you know, um, I I'm I'm baffled. I don't know what to do. I was thinking like a compromise in my head when the gentleman said, you know, can't we just like all get along? I'll just share my thought. You guys can throw darts, do whatever, but I just have to put it out there. Like I'm thinking, okay, so to to to show that we are a community working together to be to get along, you know, play in the same sandbox, would would both teams be willing to speak to say could we do Friday and Saturday at Soul Park on the pickle ball courts that we invested so much money in and then have like the last day, the playoff day with everybody at Libby Park?

Interesting. That's just a thought. So that's because I I I hear both sides and I'm sympathetic to both peop, you know, both sides of it. It's a tough spot to be in. Um part of me wants to say, well, I wasn't involved in the beginning. I'll back out. But that's not the right thing to do, but I I that's just my thought. So I don't know if that's something that sides would want to consider. Show that you truly want to get along.

It's a followup. Um so yeah, they I I have to admit I thought that Mr. captured my attention in saying what we're here to do today seems pretty clear to me and that that I would not approve the appeal. Um, and the difficulty with even on the decibel level, it's very similar to the music decibel level and the bolt. So, if we're going to have that kind of sound conversation, it does get very complicated. And even in in the health study, Mr. Whitman, that you brought up, the sample size is so low, it's hard to it's 98 participants. So percentages get very difficult and they don't quote statistical significance. So it's hard to know what to understand. But I love your idea personally. So if there was something like a goodwill compromise where there is the something like the playoffs in the in Liby and then the other courts are worked on, I think that's a very strong goodwill gesture. So yes,

if I could add to that, I mean, we heard from people who live right there that one of the reasons why the music festival like the the um concerts or other events are tolerable is because there's a time limit when we're talking about three days, 16 courts and and I did hear you about how all the courts weren't going to be utilized at one time, but but that we can't know that. But we know that it's three days of that noise and the noise carries up the hill.

I live up on upper drown and I hear concerts and things like that. So, we're not just talking about the ne the local neighbors. We're talking about anyone who's enjoying the park. We're talking about people who might not even live right there um in the in the near vicinity. But I would be supportive of looking at a compromise of some kind. Um, I think that actually is a a good solution. So, I would uh I would think about that if we can put a limit on the hours and limit on the number of courts that are playing at any one time.

I'd consider that as an option. um like limit it to the hours that we're currently have set for the um this the city hall courts because it might even be you know fewer hours because the last I don't know pickle ball so maybe Mr. can help like the last day. How many people are going to be eliminated into that final day of play? So, it wouldn't be as long I'm assuming as of the full days of the previous or not as many courts. Yeah. So, and I would Yeah. Go.

I would just say that um you know the hours that they that they indicated were for setup. Nobody starts a pickle ball tournament at 6:30. You know, it just doesn't happen. Um I did want to talk just really briefly. I looked at the quiet communities the study that council member Whitman noted and it was a very small sample size and it was also um you know their sort of uh their um mission is working to address harmful noises because quiet is essential. Okay. So in other words and these were monkey survey I mean they were like surveys done with you know whatever that that survey place is in other words I find it I I didn't give it any real credence because these people were self- selected people who did not like noise and they they went ahead and they took the survey online and we know we've talked a number of times about surveys online you can take you know it's hard to individualize them. So, for that reason, I didn't give it a lot of credence because I didn't think that it um really represented anything. And also, I lived in Lincoln, Massachusetts. There are no businesses in Lincoln, Massachusetts. Um so, you know, that's where they're located. Um there is a gas station and a grocery store and that's Lincoln, Massachusetts. I promise you, I lived there. That's where these people are from. So, um, that's another reason why I think that we shouldn't give so much credence to this particular study.

If if Oh, sorry. Yeah. So, I'm No, that that's that's all I just wanted to say. I didn't that, you know, it's in our packet, but it hasn't been vetted in any way, shape, or form. Fair. And I'm going to repeat once again that everything that came from the sound study was based on the fact that it was long-term, every day, persistent, not a special event. And with that, I'm done.

I just wanted to follow up to your suggestion, Mr. Whitman. Just this if we're if we were going to come up with the compromise that Miss May suggested, um I might leave it open-ended with the intention to say because if they're going to have to reorganize, understanding the intention, I would probably want to task Miss Rivera to say, you understand what we're trying to do here instead of us setting the hours because we're going to ask for a pretty big task at the at the last minute. So, just a suggestion there. Um, let have I don't know. I'm I'm signing you up for something that you didn't sign up for, but if we were going to work on a compromise that you would understand what courts are available around the town and how could it work out that the conclusion is in

Well, if we're talking about Soul Park courts, we do also program at Soul Park Courts. So, we would have to take a look at any youth classes or adult classes that are there. Okay. Yeah, I get that. So, there's information that would be difficult for us to make right here, which just lends to that point. You know, the private courts, we don't know. We don't know if the Ohio if the Ohio Athletic Club and Ryan are really going to open their courts up. Um, that's not

that's not clear. Um, Lake Cassidus, that's not clear. Um, and I will say that, you know, the courts have to have a particular standard and I'm not sure that Lake Cassidus meets that standard. Like I know that a lot of the tennis tournament that's played off on private courts and things like that, they don't require the same standard that the um, you know, the college level play does. So there's another but that's not to say it couldn't be figured out but just to say that there are all these private courts around that could be used. Um we don't really know if that's the case.

I totally and can I is there is there I there's four courts here of course and then there's six at Soul or five at Soul. There's one tennis court I believe over there and then there's two tennis courts. Two paddle tennis courts, one mix court and five uh pickle ball courts. Thanks. I could just jump in. If it's the will of the council, we we will work to figure out some type of compromised solution. Contacting other locations, we're happy to take that word. That's fine. That's what the council wants us to do. No problem. That I appreciate that. And and if I if I may, um so you know, you have a few options. Mhm.

Um, obviously tonight council may make a decision and and adopt findings and we would we would probably recommend bringing back a a resolution at your next council meeting that includes those written findings. Um, and we would close the public hearing tonight so that we've concluded the public comment on this item. Mhm.

But the other option would be to continue the final decision to the, you know, we could close the public comment, continue the final decision to the next meeting. If there are additional options for consideration, we would probably want to reopen the public comment just so that the public so if there's a compromise um you know, we could reopen the public hearing and allow additional feedback or public input on the compromise but continue a decision until that time. Now, let me ask you this. So, I think this is my inclination, but of course, it's up to all of us. Um, it would not be to have this big conversation again, but it would be something like saying

you we have initiated, we've asked, we've tked the staff to um work on a compromise. I like your resolution idea, but um I would not want to bring that back with all the details that we decide in public. I mean, I'd like it to be decided if that's possible. I I feel that if we, you know, just flush out some general parameters, we we understand. Okay. And we could I think that Miss Burgess is correct. We need to return. Here's here's what we came back with. But I I understand what you're saying. Yeah. Reopen public. Yeah. The the only reason to reopen the public hearing is if there is an option that was not discussed tonight

so that the public hasn't provided input on that was presented. So you could you could open it up for limited public comment on that particular compromised solution. So sorry. Yeah. So for instance, if we was if there was some other venue that hasn't been discussed for Okay. All right. Okay.

Can I just add a logistical point? So but if we were to have this I I would suggest a special meeting because otherwise we're going to have public comment not on things on the agenda. And if we limit things on the agenda to only this particular item, we will have public comment on the whole situation again for four hours. So we need to figure out how to limit it. So a special meeting would limit it to public comment only on the agendaized issue. Um because I don't think we need to go through another four hours of this. Um,

you know, I'm just saying that I would I would like to figure that part out as well. And I we are very creative, but I'm going to tell you that we're probably not going to get crazy creative with this because I think M. River and I are aware of the venues and we have connections to, you know, make these type of Don't you feel that way? Okay. I have a question. Could we Is it appropriate to ask both sides what they feel about compromise? Sounds good. Come to the microphone. Come to the microphone. Yeah. Maybe one day on Libby, one day on the athletic club, and one day at the chosen.

Well, we're going to have you come up and say something. No, thank you. Understood. And yes, please come up. Yeah.

Mayor, can I ask from the staff level here, should we be timing this and how long? Three minutes, please. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So, the reason why we wanted to play at Libby to begin with was the facilities are there, the bathrooms there, you have lights if needed, and there's a parking lot that's never used. That's why we wanted to use Libby. And you don't have to pay to get in to that place. If it's at the lake, you got to pay to get in. If it's at Soul Park, even though you spent all that money out there, you have to pay to get in. At lower libby, you don't. At city hall, you don't. We can work that part out. Okay.

If you came up with a compromise, we as a board would have to discuss that first and see what options we want to do. Well, it may be that we are going to offer something and then I guess you're going to have to go. You might have to decide if you want to take it. Well, as a board, we'll decide. I'm not going to decide to. No, I understand. I get that. And mayor, it goes. Sorry to interrupt you, but we we would want to make it not difficult on of course. And so if it was the city was subsidizing the parking because it would be I don't think it's going to and we could talk to the county or other location, but we'd ask them to wave the fees.

We always ask them to wave. We always ask them to wait. I think that's the spirit of the compromise that we're talking about. It's always our first request and I do appreciate um the appelllet I appreciate everybody saying or at least the idea about both places or several places makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. I think the few Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to go. Okay. If you want to say something, go ahead. Well, you said something already, but you Okay. Take take two minutes. Come hurry. Yep. Sure. Go.

Yep. Talk, please. I just want to point out again that the the Libby courts are going to cause a lot of noise that has been studied and that holding the the tournament at all on Libby courts sends a mixed message to the community because there's there's signs that say no pickle ball on Libby courts and then you're going to have a tournament there even one day of a tournament and then everyone in town is going to think okay great we can play t we can play pickle ball on on Libby courts anytime we want to. Do you see the conflict there?

Why not why not move forward with a compromise of moving the the entire tournament over to the athletic club if it they want one space to do it. So, we're not lying when we said that the general manager is very open to that idea. That seems like a better compromise to me. They could hold a tournament in one place with bathrooms and parking and it's free. And it's actually will probably cost less in permit fees than the city also charge it. So I I urge you to to deny the permit and let the pickle ball club figure it out.

Thank you. I I would just like to point out that hardly seems like a compromise. No. Well, it's Well, it's interesting. Um, so I I'm I'm If I heard you right, I I think I did. the compromise would include Libby. So, I'm hearing that Libby on the final day of the tournament and

and I' I'd like to see there us say there'd be limitations and it wouldn't be a problem to have a limited number of courts if you're at the, you know, at the finals part of I'm sure there's multiple age groups or whatever, but with the idea that portions of that can be taken place on other courts and just brought as as happens at the Ohigh tennis tournament. They bring the finals, semifinals to play at Libby, but the uh qualifying matches are spread out all over. I just I I totally hear you and I just wanted to avoid the making minutia decisions without all the information which we don't have.

But I I understand what you're saying. So yeah, I I guess we're

I mean, if we're going to do this, are we, you know, are we comfortable letting staff work with, you know, the appellant and letting staff do this rather than I like I don't want to set limitations up here right now saying um I mean I think we're all agreed that if it's the last day then um they need to revise how they're going to to the tournament because it's, you know, there's three groups. There's men's, women's, and mixed and each day was going to be, you know, different, which is very normal for pickle ball. Um, so, you know, they may be able to refigure that. I I don't see why you probably couldn't if you were inclined to do that.

I would I would like to support that. Yeah. So I I would like it to be worked out um without us sort of micromanaging what we'd like to see. I agree. And I guess if you understand if I heard the intention, we're interested in the last day. So that would be the funnel down. So it would be minimal, I guess. But you guys would work out where the other two days would be. Do you have a preference on the time? No. This is their normal part time, right? Well, especially if it Well, again, I wouldn't want to micromanage that because I don't know a tournament. How do you know how long it's

and they will have to re they will have to refigure it because it was each category on each day versus, you know, and and I don't know, Mark, is there something useful? Okay, come to the podium. That the way that you're describing having everything on Sunday, all the finals are not on Sunday. That that's not how it works. And so you've got on Friday you've got one group of let's say it's women who are playing and through the course of that day you know it starts with all them playing and then by the end of that day there are semi-finals and there are finals on that day. Okay.

And so it isn't the case that it all is one big thing that funnels down to on Sunday a limited number of of final games. So but what about what about if it were day one is one place day two somewhere else and day three there. Does that work? I mean, that's a better discussion to have than than trying to think in terms of, oh, just the finals are going to be at Li time. That's not We're just saying day three is because you've got people coming in from out of town. They're playing on Friday and they can't wait to play the finals on Sunday. Well, I think we're trying to have a a discussion around that kind of but we got to be realistic about how a tournament actually functions. Yeah, I think that that that's true. Well, we're asking for three days.

Yeah. For Friday to stay till Sunday. That's just the Sunday is at Libby and the other two are the other two are other locations. But I would like to also bring back a resolution limiting or bring back for future agenda item a resolution limiting uh only tennis at Libby courts. So that would be some other I suggest that more than a resolution if that's what the council wants to bring. Yeah. What what I would what I would recommend is that we um actually bring back to a future council meeting um a discussion that focuses on what council's appetite would be for a longer term policy. Okay.

And so we would do a discussion item and then we could we could discuss whether that's a policy approved by resolution or an ordinance that goes Sounds great. Okay. All right. So I make a motion that we initiate a compromise between the two that day one of the tournament is held at a location to be determined by staff. All three days by staff with the final day being in the week. That's a motion. I need a second though. Well, don't leave yet. We got a vote. I'll second it. Okay. All right. Did we get it? Any more discussion? All right. Let's do roll call. Mayor, I'd like to ask a question of the city attorney,

please. For the recommendation to be, does this deny the appeal and grant the facility permit with the additional conditions? I would say this is not a final decision on the appeal that effectively. So we don't we don't technically need a motion tonight. I think if there is, you know, an informal head nod from at least three members of council, which I think right now we we have. Okay. The final decision on this item would occur at at the next available opportunity, whether that is a special meeting or whether that is the How is that not avoiding what we just said? Well, well, we still need a The problem is we don't I don't know that we have a specific solution that has been

We were just asking though for the staff to come up with a specific on the times. Well, so I think council though would need to approve this because this is an appeal to the city council. I think we would need council to approve whatever that final recommendation is. So, I I I would be uncomfortable having council approve a compromise that we don't have that we haven't actually described as far as what that looks like. Couldn't sorry, you're you're the attorney, but couldn't

isn't isn't the direction just simply two days away from Libby, one day at Libby? We would strive to make it as easy on the tournament as possible. I think we would want to try to have those two days be in one location if we could arrange for that. I mean, so that could be the the motion would be to actually approve and if I could add approve the special event permit with the condition that only one day of the permit may be held at Libby and I think actually there's some granularity there. the final the the final day final day the other two are another location with the

desire to have it at the same location for those two days and I've also heard that no entry fees right we we need to work to you know either wave or subsidize entry or parking fees I have a I have a $30,000 um spending it's not going to cost anywhere near that I'm hoping to get these things paid but If we had to would that be sufficient start with that would be sufficient. So the motion I believe the motion for this hold that put us in a position where we don't have to Yes. She's saying yes. Okay. Can So Mr. Montgomery, are you comfortable? Do you want to say it again? I just want to hear. Yes.

Oh, before I do, there was I think there was going to be a question from Yeah. Just wanted to make sure that we understood that what you have to also do is evaluate the courts for for tournament play, for liability, for all of those things. And sometimes courts are built and understood. Okay. So, just to make sure I I just want that in there. Mir and I had a lengthy discussion on this very topic earlier today. So, I'm sure I just wanted to make sure that I was sure. So, the motion I believe would be that council is So, council is making a motion to appeal to approve in part and deny in part

the appeal and would allow the use of the Libby Park courts on Sunday. The lower libby cards court parks. Sorry, it's late. Yeah. the lower Libby Park ports on Sunday and direct staff to identify other alternative locations for the first two days of the tournament. Um that that are appropriate for tournament play. Okay. And with full accessibility, something like that. Or now do you want to use the word identify or just thinking execute? Right. Yeah. Anyway, we're having Hold on a second. Yeah, we don't want to do that. Yep.

So, okay, that's it. And that I'm happy that that's the motion and second. Are you happy with that as a second? Okay. Okay. All right. Ready for roll call. Mayor. Okay. Mayor Pro Tim May. Yes. Council member Rule. Mayor Gilman. Yes. Council member Lang. Yes. Council member Whitman. Yes. Council member Rule. I'm okay. Motion passes. Wow. All right. Well done. Thank you. Thank you everybody.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. I appreciate it. No, it's good. That's okay. No, I mean way to think on your feet, lady. That's good. And Jamie was happy with it. The neighbor Yeah. No, she was really good. Thank you guys. I know. We We put it in your lap. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. You just have to tighten everything up. I can't do it. Yeah. Thank you, Christie. Pull everything out. did it without having to bring this nonsense back.

Yeah, this was that this this was probably the best it could be. If I never see this again, I'll be really happy. Okay, let's pull it back. We have to decide what we want to do because we have another very big issue that we won't be able to do reasonably. Probably I'm asking that question. Um, we then have two we have uh two smaller things. Mayor, could I offer a suggestion, please? You might hate this, but I doubt I'll hate it. Well, I hardly hate anything. Okay. Um, this is going to be news, a little bit news to the council, maybe a little bit news to the community. We're proposing a special meeting of the city council on the 9th.

Okay. And the reason that we are proposing that is this would be superintendent and the assistant superintendent of OD coming to the city council to explain the workforce housing projects. The council could ask questions with the community. So, I'm just saying that we're and I've got confirmation tonight from the the two superintendents that they can make that night work if that is agreeable. So, you would likely be here if that worked for you. Anyway, I don't know if we could use that date to our advantage with you some of this extra stuff that we have here. It's just a thought.

Another thought that we have and just throwing out other stuff here. We're messing around with a a Thursday 528 tree ordinance continuation discussion um just to try to complete that. So that's that's a Thursday and we don't even know if that works for all of you, but that was another thing we were throwing out there. Well, so if everybody is open to that 19th date, um I would I would be completely open to moving um the conversation about at large voting to that date. The problem with that item is that we will need a I think we need some direction tonight. Okay.

Tonight is a discussion item. Tonight is Well, there's there's an element of it that's direction. If you want us to bring back an approval item, you need it tonight. But we do need direction about so that just the demographic study the demographic study and so so as far as the next item goes the only thing that was going to be a a decision point for tonight was whether to direct our office to move forward with um obtaining the demographic study um we can have a more um meaty discussion of this and we would if that was council's appetite at the next meeting anyway

actually It's an interesting proposal because if someone were to bring up the demographic concern, this could answer that in that conversation either way. But but what I will say is that if you know I know sometimes there has been an appetite on this council to introduce an item as for discussion before you're being asked to make a decision.

Um so if we don't have this initial part of the discussion tonight, we will be bringing you a possible decision item at the same time. At this point in time, we have not prepared um an ordinance for first reading. So, I think the other thing would be if if we if you were going to need to be in a position to make a decision um at the May 12th meeting, then we would also want direction from city council as to whether to go ahead and prepare an ordinance so that you could consider it. Well, let me ask a different question. Um does that make sense?

It does. And so, I guess the question I want to have is if If we were to simply move things two weeks ahead, I is that a problem? In other words, we don't have to have the May 12th be the decision point. That could be the discussion point. That could be the discussion point and then you could have decisions at the second meeting in May and the first meeting in June. So then a big night. That's the going to be a p a big night. I don't think we're going to hear anything else on the last, you know, startup here. That's going to be a one item. Well, look at this one tonight. This one took four hours. Um, that's going to be a one item night leave.

I guess what I what I'm not interested in is rushing anything, right? So, we want to be thorough and do it well. And we have our general rule, which is not introducing things after 10 if we don't have to. But what I guess what I would ask this body then would be something like how how difficult is the demographic study? I've understood that's pretty simple. Is that correct? So the demographic study is fairly simple. It's a paper exercise. Um and ultimately so what I've been instructed and and so we'll treat this as the staff presentation. If you have question on just this aspect of it understood staff questions or I mean questions for staff and then there's any public comment on the demographic study, we would like to do that as well tonight.

Okay. Um, what we would be asking for for purposes of the demographic study is authorization to retain Doug Johnson who is the consultant who did the demographic study whenever the city moved to by district voting. Um, he is an expert on um, city demographic studies related to voting rights act matters.

Um, because he's in he our office reached out to him because we've worked with him as a consultant on some he was a consulting expert on some recent litigation. So we reached out informally just to get a sense of what that would cost and how long it would take. And what what he advised is that it would cost you know less than $10,000 and the work would be completed within one to three weeks. Um you know he said he could compress it to one week if we absolutely needed him to. Mhm. Um, so, so with that being said, I mean, we could we could push the schedule by two weeks. I think that that makes

that does make the city clerk's job a bit harder because there, you know, we need to have the resolution calling for elections, I think, also approved. That's scheduled for June 9th. Um, on June 9th, but I think we would know after consideration. So if we received direction, what that means I think in terms of the schedule if council wanted to move something forward on this is that you would have

consideration of an ordinance on first reading at the second meeting in May and consideration on second reading at the same meeting where we have the resolution calling for election. But we would theoretically have some sense after a first, you know, if if an ordinance is approved on first reading is a good indication it may be approved on second reading. At this point, we don't know if council wants to move forward with an ordinance at all. Fair enough. And then I'm I have on my calendar a possible meeting on so May 19th, but also May 12th and then also May 26th. So we do have some other opportunities. We just need to make sure that the requisite time between first and second reading is

I understand. So tonight you could we could have a limited discussion on the demographer. We could move forward with a demographic study and then we could bring an item we could bring we could hold the discussion of this item that was contemplated for tonight until the next regular meeting. Okay. Which would which would be the the 12th which is the same night as the or or we can move it to the 19th or the 19th. I would prefer later. Let's let's suggest that that's I think we're going to be here till midnight on that toot hearing. I want to evaluate not if we follow the rules.

I want to evaluate the dates and make sure that you know that's giving us sufficient time but we can look at that also. Well, what again it's not clear what's what we are going to wind up wanting to do, but um so if we were to limit it to this so we're on item nine with a limit and that would be the conversation I'm asking my colleagues would we like to have a demographic that not it's that and I I think what I would do is I would like if we're going to open it up that way I would like to give just a brief for the members of the public who are still with us I would like to give a kind of a brief summary of what this item is so that they know what we're talking Okay. If there are any other questions

um from council, we can take those. We'll allow the public to do a limited scope. We would let we would honor the public comments that are here. Absolutely. Okay. So, so I think though before we move since this is kind of talking about a change to the agenda, is there some consensus on kind of limiting the scope of the discussion tonight to the demographers study and then continuing the rest of it? Are are you I'm for that. Okay, I'm for that as well.

So So we'll make this very quick. Um so the basically this item was originally requested um at a meeting I think in March by the mayor. There was a second um vote. I I did confirm with city staff that the reason it's identified as city council direction or why they didn't I had initially added that in the agenda staff did not make that ch make a change to that because um this is included in the council goals as goal 9J correct

um and so you know at at a high level um this item and I'll I'll leave the details for the next meeting but at a high level in in 2018, city council adopted an ordinance moving to by district voting. Um, in 2022, council referred a measure to the ballot to allow to ask the voters whether council should allow rank choice voting for officials elected at large. And that passed, but based on research, our office has done. Rank choice voting is not feasible under California law for a general law city. We can talk about that more at the next meeting. If so, so while rank choice is unavailable as an option

and ju just to clarify, I think that the way the ordinance read is that the the council could adopt it in its discretion at a point in time when they thought it was we thought it was safe from feasible. I think it's the Yeah, at it says at the discretion of the city council, right? But then there's some ambiguous language that says if the city council implements it starting with the November 2024 general election. So that's a little unclear. The if is I didn't read the if not not if it starts by 2024, but beginning in 2024. So it's it's I'm just saying it's slightly ambiguous.

Okay. Yeah. And and so our office has evaluated the issue of rank choice voting and determined that based on feedback from the California Secretary of State's office, which has to approve changes in voting systems and a decision they made with regard to the city of Mission Viejo and cumulative voting, that the Secretary of State's office is going to disapprove any voting system that is for a general law city that is not plurality based, meaning the person who receives the greatest number of votes is elected. Under a rank choice system, there are scenarios where the person who receives the greatest number of votes um still receives the fewest number of first, second or third choice votes and so therefore they are not elected which runs a foul of this idea of a of a plurality based voting system. In order for city council to seriously and meaningfully consider um any change in your voting system, the first recommendation from our office is that you would need to get a demographic study that would confirm whether or not um a change in the voting system to at large voting would present issues with respect to the California Voting Rights Act, which prohibits um racially polarized voting. and voter dilution of minority voters. And so that's kind of two ways of looking at this or kind of describing the same

same thing that's prohibited under the CB. So if council wishes to consider this, the first step would be doing this demographic study.

The base cost for the demographic study is around $3 to $5,000. If we want Mr. Doug, Mr. Johnson to attend um a city council meeting and present information on that. There is an additional cost for his time and travel associated with that. So um in the staff report we are um we identify as a financial impact that you know the cost of the the cost of the demographic study. Um, if council wishes to move forward after the first longer discussion on this item, there would also be the cost of preparing any ordinance for council consideration. Are there any questions? Yes.

So, um, I've done a lot of reading about this and um, trying to understand what the Supreme Court did. So the sup the Supreme Court and the PICO case um that came after the the the demographic study that was done for the city and the Supreme Court talked about the idea that um a you would have to look at whether there are crossover votes, meaning people not in the um not in the um potentially protected class, but who would potentially cross over and join with them. So, this would be a a bit of a different demographic study than we did originally. Right.

That is correct. And and is that is that what Mr. Johnson is proposing to do for us? Look at that crossover issue. He he would look at kind of the full range of issues that come into play under the California Voting Rights Act. Okay. And and it may be that the demographic analysis doesn't support

um a move to at large voting and it may be that it does. I I don't know the answer to that. Um I know his initial com our initial conversation with him or in that conversation he did mention that these analyses are a bit different for small communities. um because the way that voting rights act issues play out in smaller communities differs a bit from very large communities. But but he's familiar with those types of issues and would evaluate that as part of

and I guess I'm hearing your recommendation if I'm hearing it right to say if we were to engage in this study at least it would harm us to even see oh this isn't worth pursuing at all because the demographics don't support that might be conclusive and that we could that could um give us some time so we're not having a three-hour conversation that we need not potentially potentially and and you know our office was reticent to move forward and charge ahead with with hiring a demographic consultant without you know having some direct. So um are there any other questions?

Any other questions? Well, so if if I don't expect to support a switch to at large voting, how am I supposed to vote on the demographics?

I think because I'm spending money I I don't want to spend money on something that I don't support do. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. But then I guess you might ask yourself, this is the bigger question, but what the reasons for what we would do that it does that's the larger conversation that would be interesting seems to me is why why be interested in and why not but if you even if you were to say well I'm not going to vote for it even if the demographic supported it that would be interesting to hear the reason but not not tonight unless

so I'm happy to have the longer discussion tonight but I'm also comfortable postponing it but I think if there is because we're going to be r, you know, butdding up against some time constraints um with the deadline to submit um the resolutions calling election to the county. I think it would be helpful to go ahead and have the demographic analysis completed. Um as opposed to obtaining that direct at a future meeting. I don't know if that helps. Council I feel like it's worth having anyway. So, I think that it's a necessary

point to move forward to make a decision. Um, I don't think that it's sufficient, you know, but I also believe that having that information would be of value to us as we move forward in any, you know, in in decisions that might entail demographic uh, you know, criteria. So for me, number one, I think we need it in order to decide how we move forward. And you can vote yes, you can vote no. Um, and then I think it may also have uh, you know, value outside of or in addition to um, you know, itsformational value to deciding whether or not we do at large.

I would also add it's pretty low commitment. Yeah, it's a good thing to have. Um, so maybe I'll just I want to offer the comments for people who put in cards if they want to talk about that issue. So Steve Quilysy please, Larry Steinold and then Klay BC please. So we're just doing comments on the demographic. Yeah. So if you want to limit it to I guess this first step.

Okay. So we're having public comment three minutes at a time but limited to the issue of having a demographic study before we come to any conclusions on anything else. I suppose that okay it's fine. I think if we if you travel around this town and I have done that a lot where not worn out a lot of shoe leather getting around this town. I think you'll find that the town is pretty homogeneous. We're not in a position in this town where there there is even potentially a what's what's called a majority minority district. A demographic study will will confirm that again. But I think that's where we are. And as a result, the idea will simply confirm that we have a homogeneous community here.

Four square miles, 7,500 people. Um, I think it's 13 to 15% identified Latino extraction and that's spread all over the city. So, how would you how would you construct how how how would how would you use a demographic study to construct a district that no longer disenfranchises a protected community? I think that's I think that's what you're looking for is is a study going to allow us to come to the conclusion that there is no identifiable um contiguous let's say community of people who deserve their own district. Uh I don't think you'll find it but I'm sure a demographic study will confirm that. Thanks. Thank you, sir.

Larry Stangle, please. Clay Casy, and then Bill Wyrick. Uh first I I uh don't understand how you can arbitrarily change a discussion item without a vote but just a question because uh the idea and I agree with Steve Cloy the idea of a big city or a town that has neighborhoods where there are a French quarter and an Italian quarter and all these different groups and they all lose their vote And it gets diluted when it votes all at once. And I I understand why they went to districts because some areas are

Steve. Guys, we can't hear. We can't hear. Thank you. I do the same thing. Uhhuh. So I I mean I understand we do need a demographic study to show exactly what Steve said because I don't think there are any neighborhoods that are full of people who would tend to vote one way because of some call call it cultural ethnic call it whatever you want. one way. Rhode Island. Yes. Okay. Places get divided by highways, things like that. Uh segregation by construction. So go forward and see what you can do and hopefully you'll find out that you won't need one.

And and if I may, just for a point of clarification for um the members of the public who are here and who may be listening, the the noticed item on the agenda, it included discussion, but it also requested council provide direction regarding whether to retain a consultant. Okay. So, I just I wanted to make that clear. We're not we're not adding or changing a discussion item to a decision item. Better. Yes. Well, but I agree that we should not.

Thank you. Um Klay Casy, please. Bill Hyrick, and then Randy Hane. Well, starters, a gold star to all of you for that last agenda item. I think you ought to take that vide tape and play it in a civics class. It was an excellent uh uh example of the city council being functional and listening to arguments. And I hate to waste my three minutes for praising you, but I felt I couldn't avoid that. So anyhow, um, Councilman Wittmann is correct uh in his question with regard to should he be in favor of a survey if he's not going to be in favor of the uh repealing the ordinance that would in theory be enabled by that survey. So I'm going to make just a few comments about that subsidiary question of of whether you should repeal the ordinance or not. And I actually don't hear that much. I can see arguments on both sides and I know there's legal risks and financial implications and representation issues. So, it's up to you to figure it out. Um, but I'm very curious why this potential repeal vote is not being presented to you as a motion to reconsider as opposed to just a standard motion. Because you recall last year there was a lot of hay made over the notion that you can't change the decision on the maintenance yard in future meetings unless a supermajority votes to allow a motion to reconsider. I made a very large point and produced a lengthy brief which was footnoted and you went through Robert's rules of orders etc which basically demonstrated that a motion to reconsider was not the correct way to change that decision. nor is it the correct way to change this decision on this ordinance.

So, the city attorney is correct when she says it's simply a simple motion to enact an ordinance, in essence, repealing the enaction that was made back in 2018. But this is a perfect example of why it was incorrect last year to say that changing the maintenance yard location for the cabin village required a supermajority to uh to allow a motion to reconsider to be placed uh in front of the council when in fact that was not the case. A careful reading of Roberts and Rosenberg's rules of order, which both apply to this city per the municipal code and your protocols would yield that. I've produced a lengthy paper which demonstrates it. Anybody wants to bore themselves to death for an hour, feel free to have coffee with me and I'll walk you through it. The bottom line is motions to reconsider are extremely rare needed. They weren't needed last year. They aren't needed this year. And anyhow, congratulations again on the last item. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Bill Raick, please. Randy Haney and then Anita Cr. Evening council.

Hey, late evening council. Uh, one just to add to the record, the reason for Measure M grew out of a language in the deliberation. I forget whether it was the appeals court or the Supreme Court deliberations that specifically said that there may be alternatives to districtricting to achieving compliance with the California civil rights law. And they specifically called out rank choice voting as being one option. That's why Measure M was put on the ballot to allow that option. I don't there's a lot of water over the bridge legal wise. Mr. Whitman knows much more than I do about that. But I wanted to add that to the record. There was a reason for specifying rank choice because it been brought up in the court deliberations as a possible alternative to districtricting because we all know that districtricting does not help good community-based decision-making. We've all felt that. we all didn't want to do and but but we were faced with basically a lot of threats and I I just you know I wanted to add that to the record uh why measure M was worded the way it was. It stemmed from actual court deliberations. Second the uh dem I would I think another alternative to a new demographic study is to take the demographic study that was done and analyze it using the the up-to-date methodology that Mr. Whitman was just mentioning. uh that might provide a quicker guidance as to whether you want to proceed with a completely new uh second demographic study or not. Or at the very least, if you're going to do a second demographic study, perhaps apply uh the same methodology to that previous one. It would help gain additional information for your consideration. Um but I I do believe that uh the overwhelming majority of uh the electorate believes

that um uh the uh effects of districtricting have not been good for a sense of communitywide uh decision-m. um it it by its definition takes a small community and creates fractionalization that u I think undermines the integrity of communitywide decision-making. So anyway, I just wanted to make those those three points. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Randy Haney, please. Anita Cra and then Starchild. So the question is do the study or not do the study? Do the study. The second thing that I have to say is I'd be remiss if I didn't bring this up. Save the date. June 28th. It's a Sunday. 12:00 to 5:00. Can't comfort. We're having a blues and and blueg grass event. Okay. And I expect to see you all there. June 28th. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Heene. Um, Anita Cramp, please. Starchild, and then Steve Colame, who I think Oh, yeah. There you are. Okay.

And I'm gonna make my points. I've waited all night. Yes, please go. So, I oppose this effort um for our community to take a step backwards from democracy in our city voting method. There's no clear reason why we're doing this.

You know, measure M is mentioned in this and clearly says no, it's not a good option for many reasons, and I won't read those because it's already been determined. The California Democratic Party's platform states, "For a healthy democracy based on free and fear, free and fair elections, California Democrats will encourage the replacement at at large election methods with the adoption of by district andor alternate voting methods when it maintains the spirit of the voting rights act. Moving back to outlarge at large voting is contrary to voting practices for a democracy. Also, the staff report acknowledges that no city has returned to at large voting after shifting two districts. Ohhigh is inviting a lawsuit. We've got plenty of those. In addition for at large at large voting, there's no reason to have to hire a demographer. If you're going to do it for a different reason, then that's separate than doing it to determine how we're going to vote. And I disagree that, you know, that this is really what people want because on a more personal level, I want a city council member for my district that is a point person. I can contact when questions and issues arise. I can go to them and say, "You are my council member. I need your help." at large voting eliminates this and it dilutes the responsibility and accountability of council members for voting uh communic members um when there's not a clear single point point person for us to contact. It also could put a heavier workload on council members perceived to be more responsive by the community. So the efforts toward a ballot measure should address the vacant second house problem that that

would really help community members rather than going to an archaic what I consider an archaic. So if we're thinking of a referendum for a ballot initiative, do it for housing that sits empty. that would really help community members in need to spend your time and effort rather than doing this to do something that really helps the community rather than this being kind of pulled out of a hat

and nobody understands why this is being done. So, this is like the proverbial solution in search of a problem it seems to be. Um, and if a sitting council member moves out of their district, the council has tools of discretion to address that. That's not a reason to change voting because in the past that has been brought up. So I say vote oh no on all options and retain our current district voting in the name of democracy. Thank you. Starchild please and then Steve Colome.

Good evening. It's good to see many of the same 10 people in the das today. I'm Dr. Starchild by Vota, president of the Ohio Valley Democratic Club, the longest serving Democratic club in the Ohio Valley. Last Sunday, members of the Ohio Valley Democratic Club voted unanimously to support a shift from electing city council members by district to an atlarge method of selection. We're one city, not four districts. That's why the electorate voted to return to that large voting by ref uh by referendum. That's why the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Mayor Andy Gilman on the platform of returning to citywide voting. The people of OHigh deserve to be represented by the majority of council. But for the majority of council members and for the majority of council, an Ohio citizen is not a constituent enjoying the same level of representation as somebody who lives in Oak View or Minor's Oaks. Those in favor of districts point to fear of a lawsuit, but most small cities in California have city-wide voting. Port Wimi has citywide voting in Ventura County. The fear is that a court might find that districts uh that that uh districts afford certain protected minority groups greater representation. The largest such group in Ohio is the Latinx community. Which of you represents the district with the largest Latino community? It might be a district number one where I live, where my neighbor Savar Lara lives, who is the former mayor, but he won in a citywide in a citywide election. These are the there are other fears that you should consider. The fear of a

renter who wants to serve her community but worries she could lose her seat if she has to move across town. The fear that no candidate or just one candidate will run in a district, leaving voters without a choice. We can end these fears. We can give every voter in Ohio a choice for which city member, city council member they'd like to vote. We can allow civic-minded people to run without fear that they might lose their housing, might be forced to move across town and lose their position. We can declare that we're not four districts of Ohio, but we're a United City of OHigh. We can return to at large voting.

Thank you, sir. Steve Col.

I'm going to abbreviate my comments given the hour that we're we're in. Okay.

My main concern here is that this issue came out of nowhere. This came, you know, one late meeting, the very very last minute of March 24th, the literally the last minute, Andy suggested that it might be possible to do at large voting in Ohigh this year. It was rapidly uh seconded by council member Rule. And with that, we're here. I don't think there is a hue and cry against the existing district representation that we have. Let's think of some of the benefits of district rep representation. We've got a fairly well-defined segment of neighborhoods. Well, I have, you know, issues in my neighborhood. Some of it may have to do with street maintenance. I happen to have representative uh uh Rachel Lang as my representative. I like being able to go to her if there's an issue um rather than have to figure out who it is that I go to. The next thing that I'm really concerned about is that the old Democrat Democratic Club was nearly defunct. It was gone for summer, fall, and winter. and all of a sudden came back again last Sunday to now send in a whole group of letters. My real fear is that this effort is a power play to eliminate the districts that we have now that are in fact working and to replace it with the potential of there being big money efforts at setting up slates and being able to buy an election in the city of

Ohio. And I think that's bad politics. And I see that my I I I I you know I don't want to say that I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I see a conspiracy here. And I thank you. I you can do a demographic study if you want, but even if if it's permissive, I don't think you have any real basis for changing the way we are conducting our elections. Anybody online? No, mayor. No raised hand. Okay. Oh, Renee, sure. Go ahead. So, uh, Rene, take it easy, fellas. Take it easy. Take it easy. Go.

Renee Roth. And um I agree with Bill Hyrick uh and other comments that have been made that there is a lot of people in our community who are not happy with the district and the division and the small number of votes that are that would allow districts representation to make decisions for the benefit of all the people. There is a misalignment with the number of votes required to be an elected official and the decisions where all of you have to come together to make decisions for the greatest good for the community. We know our biggest challenges, housing, fire readiness, climate, traffic, public trust are citywide issues. Those are citywide issues that need citywide solutions, not my district wants to do this and my district wants to do that. We've got to bring the community together and there has been so much division. It's it's just unbelievable. Um, and the other thing is if you go back and look at the 2018 staff report, the staff report did include the demographic study that said the community is widely dispersed. The Latino community is widely dispersed. Seo Laura, an elected city council member and mayor, was widely elected and very closely elected uh several different times. So that to me is a a a hard a hard example that we know our Latino community is widely dispersed. They do vote. They do care. And when you

start breaking it down in districts, you further divert and distort their vote so that they can't work in a group for somebody that they believe represents their interest. So it it actually does the opposite. The other thing is it's the small cities the small cities who have decided to stay with at large voting that have never moved from it and they have never gotten sued. The small cities underneath uh below 35,000 people they've stayed districts or at large and they've not been sued and they are very happy that way. So those numbers need to be understood. So for that those reasons, go ahead do the studies. But I do believe our staff reports need the the ones that the the studies already done need to be used as a basis for how many people do we have that we're really talking about. Let's not do let's not diffuse their vote even more by doing districts and keeping the districts in line. Thank you.

Thank you. Um just two clarifying points. Um, I would favor a new study in any case, just since COVID happened in the middle, right? It would just be interesting to see any changes that happened in our in our town. But the second thing, um, I brought up th this issue. First of all, it's one of our goals. Um, so that was stated for a long time. And secondly, it was in the future agenda items at the end of the meeting. So, it wasn't I wasn't trying to sneak anything in. It was just that's the time to bring new things up. But um to me it's it was the number one issue in running for mayor was can we go back to the atlarge voting? So it's not out of the blue. It was the number one thing that people brought up and um I'm a middle class guy. I fund my own campaign. So no big slate funding me pal. Anyway,

but didn't you run on choice? Not at large. Difference there. Well, I hear what you're saying, but it's it seems like it's Well, now we're getting into the conversation, but let's let's do that another time. Okay, perfect. I was just trying to respond to uh my question. So are there are there any other public comments? Um well the question is whether or not to do the study that seems

so I I I have a lot of uh you know concerns for heading down that path. I think that the overwhelming material that I've read is that so first of all this issue isn't about how many minorities we have. issue is about whether a minority. How how no matter how small people they uh number they are is whether their vote gets deliluded given less value in an atlarge system because some organized group can consolidate voters. And so instead of having three votes, you get some small percentage. and the so I I have no support for uh changing the districts. I don't think the community has told us anything that they want to go back other than a small majority said you could consider putting us back. you could consider trying rank choice voting was a like 55% uh voted in favor of that and um I don't see a reason you know for doing this other than to you know try to put a slate up that will uh that you can control which has been you know the goal as stated by the former president of the Ohio Valley Democratic Club to control the city council. and uh and they campaigned heavily for you

well when you ran I'm just representing myself. So to me it's I'm trying to respond to what Measure M like you say only 55% but that means it passed this we're not talking about Measure M. I I know you're not. It's un Well, yeah, actually, you can push measure M, which is rank choice voting, but well, we heard we heard people talk. So, anyway, um so we can we can Mr. Oh, ple Mr. Haney, please chill. Um, thank you. So, I we can make this I mean, if there's not the will to even pursue the study, it seems like a vote that not or we can keep talking about whether or not we should pursue it in the longer.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I I I'm for the study. I mean, it it it serves our it serves it gives us knowledge about um the the population and as far as like do people or don't people want to go back to at large voting that is a discussion that will come up. I will say when I was campaigning many people said why do we even do district like I had to explain they didn't even really understand that we were at districts and our most re our our uh county clerk and registar said that they still get questions is like why isn't this person on my ballot you know it's well because you have uh district election so I think it's it's a discussion for the community to have. I heard point good points both ways and I think it's worth having the community weigh in again. we can say, well, nobody's ever said anything to me about it. And I can say, well, you know, a lot of people said things to me about it, so let's have the discussion. And in order to be able to move forward with that discussion in an informed way, we need to have a demographic a demographic study. And I will say I think that Savarro Lara probably would not have been elected had he been running in a particular district. it was the fact that a population is diffused across all districts that he was able to get those votes. In my opin if you were looking and I I don't mean to use him, let's just say, you know, a Hispanic candidate, if they're stuck in district three or district four versus, you know, being able to pull from the entire population, it does work backwards for our particular case. That having been said, that's not what's on the on the ballot.

You want to make a motion? I I mean, not really, but I will. Go ahead. I have a question. So, um, what are So, I I agree with what Mr. Quilly said that our demographic our demographics our pro report would show what we see when we walk around town. Um, uh, is there any value other than this in doing a demog demographic study? That's a hard question to answer because there may be other reasons as a council that you have an interest in understanding what the current demographics of your city are. Um,

I will say that for purposes of of this of of any consideration and changing to an atlarge system, it's import have the demographic studies. So that's why we're recommending it before council would make a decision as to even you know as to whether to to like before we would we would present you with an ordinance on first reading if the demographics don't support that I would never recommend to council that you do so so I that being said the the demographic study is not the only consideration

and the results of the demographic study are not the only consideration And so it's information that would be needed in order to to have as part of the record on a decision related to this, but it's not it's not the only factor. So just if I might step in, um, so to me,

this is I'm very interested in the conversation. I don't want to be attached to an outcome. And it could be that the outcome turns out to be something that we haven't anticipated yet, like we did tonight. So if it means, oh, it's not now, it's later, whatever, great. I'm I'm open to that. But I do it's I can say this even just happened even this very week. When are we going to get away from the district from somebody out of the blue? So it it's very much in the air. It is here. So I just want to be responsive and it doesn't affect the mayor at all. It so anyway and I think I've said this very publicly but at some point I would love the mayor to be elected from among the council. I've said that publicly and I'm saying it again which I would love to see that on the ballot soon too. So to me it's more like it it informs us to have the right kind of conversation and if we decide against it fine great

and I will just say I I think as I mean I have not made a decision yet but if I were to run for reelection a district would help me. I know everybody in my neighborhood, you know, I'm, you know, so, but I'm still not for district elections. I don't think for the general good of the community it makes sense. But, you know, I know everybody in my district because it's, you know, 350 people and uh so just just saying just saying. Yeah. because I mean I I have a lot of concerns about moving forward with this and

I I will say like I I want to put a pause on the discussion the more in-depth discussion on districts versus at large because we we did already discuss continuing that part of the discussion to a future meeting. Okay. So I I would like to keep this focused on the Sure. It's just difficult to make a decision on spending this money if the the larger question of are we going to move forward with this or not is on the table.

So that I mean but I I could see the value in having a demographic study just for knowing what languages we need to put our materials in and and you know or any anything that the city is doing. um you know and just out of curiosity knowing who you know how things have changed since the last demographic study. So I think there's value in doing it but you can see why I was asking that question. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well I I move that we proceed with the demographic and we we ask the city to I'll second. Okay. Roll call. Okay. Council member Whitman. No. Council member Rule.

Yes. Council member Lang.

Yes. Mayor Gilman. Yes. Mayor Prom May. No. Motion passes. Three to two. Not committing too much. All right. So, on these other two items, what do we think about moving these to other days or what what what's our appetite? Okay. Okay, moving up to other days. This is the second time we've done this to you. So, sorry.

Um I and just one thing under future agenda items. It actually is on the longer list of goals. It is not one that made the final three, but meeting every week having them alternating be workshop days. We're almost doing that, but we're not officially doing that. So, we heard some public comments tonight. Um, you already know that I'm interested, but it has implications like a possible staff person and all that. So, is there is there appetite among this group to want to pursue that or not? I'm I'm

maybe down the road in my opinion. Now, I just feel like there's so much stuff these agendas that are so long we don't get things done. We have our list of potential, you know, agenda items. I think if we could home all that in and then come up with a different plan maybe that works better rotating who puts what on the agenda to have turns. I just think now the amount of time that I spend No, that's fair. I again I brought it up in the past, but I want to defer because it's not just us, it's staff. Yeah. And I I think there's different alternatives, too. We have a public safety commission where it's going to be more free flowing back and forth. It's possible that our commissions might want to have more free flow back and forth as well.

Um, so I think there are other options as well to consider. Okay. But but I agree we need to this the serial I get up three minutes and make my comment and I have no idea if anyone's heard it. That's a very real thing that people feel. Um, and maybe that's maybe that's you know the nature of the business. I don't know. Yeah. I mean that that's separate and different from what we're talking about. That's a Brown Act, you know, meeting constraint. But what I was just going to say as your staff person is please don't give us any more agenda items. There's an ocean out there and we can paste them out. I don't need any more. No, I don't mean just staff. I mean,

I understand that. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Any anybody need to say anything? All right. Ajourn. Thank you.