Parks and Rec Commission - Regular Meeting

work. I went home. Yeah.

Oh, damn. Yeah, I suppose I move the

How long is the comprehensive plan?

It's Oh, yeah. Okay.

Think you might hear but want to feel like I understand my mom I don't know what happened to them. [Music] Yeah,

I love Are they normally? Oh, those two. Yeah,

they they seem fine.

I was going to say they said they were fine with us. Right.

Okay. So, but they did not tell you they weren't. Okay. We count the empty spots, too. So, since we're missing two people, do we even have a quum? That's what he's saying. I'm a member.

Okay. Mary and Carol aren't coming. I have no idea, but it starts in about four minutes and they're usually here by now. Yeah. Well, this is about right when they walk in. Oh. Oh, see, they're normally here when I get here. You're the daylight dollar short. Paul, I'm just kidding. You're here, too. See you later, Paul. I'm just kidding. I gotta go. I think I left the cat on the stove. Oh my god. Eie has guinea pigs now.

They're in her room, so I don't hear them, but they got in a fight. That's them. Um, and one now has a ear that's split into You called it. You called it. Yep. Man, you better check on your cat. You were right about this. Oh, Mary's next to Kayla.

Sure.

I knew that wasn't going to be good. to eight weeks to heal. Oh,

am I in the right place? Sure. I don't know. That says, Carol, I mean, I think you're right here. [Laughter]

There's been worse things. I'll go with that. Don't forget your mics are on, Paul. Stop talking about your cat. It looks like the uh farmers market's jam tonight. Oh, it's a great night. Oh, I'm not I'm just moving. Oh, $250 to the 5050 winner and they donated all of it or $100. Who won it? I don't know. Could be anybody tonight. There's many people. I know. That was awesome. That's a good night. I see like I I parked on Andy Street, you know.

And usually there's like me in another car. Maybe it was down. I parked on that other one. Um you know, on the other side of the park, State Street,

it was lined all the way to the end. Where else would it be parked? All the side street. statistics. worth today versus 2013. [Music] I'll call this meeting to order of the um city of Berlin Plan Commission meeting September 30th, 2025 at 7 p.m. Can I have a roll call, please?

Uh Burgess here, Hannon here, Hughes here, Kubak here, principal here, and Reeds here. All right, we have corn. Thank you. And I don't have any cards for general public comments. Um, on to number four, which is the approval of minutes of planned commission meeting from August 26, 2025. So move. I'll second. Motion is a second. All in favor say I. I.

Any opposed? Motion carries. So we are going to bump the number five, the comprehensive plan kickoff down to after number eight. We're going to go through everybody that's here first tonight so they don't have to wait. So, we are going to go on to number six, which is the minor subdivision request from Northern Express Bus Service LLC for 167 Power Drive and Power Drive parcels number as listed. Um, Tim, we don't have anybody else here, right?

Yeah, this one I can just try to keep this short and sweet that uh I don't we discussed this with this group. My memory's serving me well here but u this was where in tandem with the u what's it called BCDC had been final involved with finalizing a special covenant for northern express and the condition of that is that they the agreement to close that out is that they do the uh certified survey map to subdivide this as it's as it's drafted and presented here. So, u this would not have any issues with any of our I mean that zoning district or anything else that would concern the plan commission. It's going to essentially make a industrial lot available ultimately for development. Any questions?

No, not familiar with that. Does anybody have any questions for Tim? We had talked about this at a previous council meeting, so at least two of us are aware of it. I'll make a motion to authorize staff to endorse the approval of the proposed modification for the respective LAS known as 167 Power Drive. And do we have a number for the other? That's to be determined.

To be determined. Okay. Uh, approving the draft CSM as submitted. I'll second that. Motion in a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. On to number seven, which is a minor subdivision request from David and Joyce Labuda, Martin, Mark, and Matthew Tchinsky, and Monica Hippus for 543 Center Street, 551 Center Street, and 558 and Court um parcels as listed. Tim,

so these are all uh adjacent residential lots. As I understand it, we're taking a portion of one lot and moving it over to two adjacent lots. have trouble have the directions, but um I think that's a faithful way of say doing that in a short but sweet uh yeah description of what's going on here. And again, this everything about this is um I mean compliant with the zoning district and it has no factors that would be causing any issues as far as the intents and purposes of zoning and planning here.

And all parties are on board. Okay. I'll make a motion to authorize staff to endorse the approval of the proposed modification for the three respective lots known as 558 and Court, 543 Center Street, and 551 Center Street, approving the draft CSM as submitted. I'll second that motion and a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. on to number eight, which is a reszone request for Johnson Street parcel number as listed. Um, just

Okay, that's it. Sorry, I had a second thought, but that's okay, Tim.

Oh, all right. So, this is the property that's across from um Berlin Journal and the former David White building u on the uh that's June Street and Johnson Street corner. U and they're looking to uh make those residential. We say that this is logical in the fact that they are making the lots the standard lot size residential. Future land use is residential and the reasonzoning should be possible based on what's adjacent to there on two sides of this property are residential. Also talked with Brian sewer and water and uh this is a property that should be able to be served by water for the entirety of it including any sort of subdivisions. uh the um uh what's it called? The sewer can serve about half the property on the northern half. They're going to have to make accommodations, but that they can present to us uh if there are any questions in the public hearing context. I make a motion to recommend to schedule a public hearing to formally review the reszoning request on October 28th, 2025 for the lot 206-0000833-0.

I'll second motion and a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thanks, guys. It's easy. Okay. So then we are on to number five which is the comprehensive plan kickoff presentation of a draft of the first set of elements including the maps and introducing the online survey.

Yes. So, so good evening. My name is Brad Valcadder. I'm with MSA Professional Services and we are working on your comprehensive plan and this is the first of many meetings that we will have with you to go over the different groups of elements. Um, the first element we gave to you, uh, we call these these element groupings. uh we we pair them in groups of three or four uh over the course of of the six months or so that we're working on this and every other month you'll get another draft to review and then we'll go through this process again uh for other sections. I'm going to set up the process tonight and go through some of the schedule and then we'll dive into some of the content that you have been reading through hopefully or will read through and get us some comments back. So next slide. Uh so we'll be going through the planning process and the timeline of the project. Uh some vision statements that come from your previous plan, but also uh we look to amend that with some things that we hear back from the survey, which I would would remind you that we're kicking off the survey and we'll be having a public open house. Um, so the fact that you have some content in front of you now, we've we've t we've leaned a lot on your previous plan for the content that we've presented to you and we'll look to in to the survey and the public openhouse to um to get public feedback on some of that content um and provide ideas for best planning practices that we can include uh from from that feedback. Next slide. So what is a comprehensive plan? So it's a guide for the social economic development of a community uh centered around the culmination of all these different elements into a future land use map which becomes a type of regulatory framework that oversees some of the development in your community. Uh

there's roughly uh seven or eight depending upon how you slice it uh with introductions and um the goals, actions and strategies that you have to include. uh there's different groupings of elements that have to be um lumped into that and out of the comprehensive plan come ideas that could make it into your zoning ordinance, your subdivision ordinance, um your development guides and and so on and so forth. Next slide. So the plan content has these nine sections as I presented uh was talking about. So, issues and opportunities, housing, transportation. We'll be going over utilities and community facilities tonight that you had some of that draft material, agricultural, natural resources, uh, economic development. We'll also be going over some intergovernmental cooperation and agreements, uh, land use and implementation. Those will come later towards the end because as I mentioned before the culmination of all these sections is in really that land use map that shows where your community might be growing and what is going to be changing over the uh over the next 20 years in this community as that type of development happens. Um we'll get feedback from online surveys and also from the open house that we'll have next week. And then we'll turn some of that data analysis and uh feedback into different planning elements and suggestions and for the goals, actions, and strategies that could be that could be supported through some of the policy decisions that are in the document. Next slide. So the anticipated timeline, we're currently at the September 30th. So we're at the first meeting where we're presenting the first elements. uh October 7th. So next week we'll be presenting uh the same type of content uh for all the elements be we'll be presenting some ideas from each of the existing comprehensive plan elements and how those fit in. Um so we'll we'll see

your existing comp plan. We'll have the future land use map out and we'll have a map of of Berlin so that we can actually do some sticky dots and and write some notes and and do some sort of pre-ervey work. Um there'll be a lot of uh hopefully engaging conversations about what the future of Berlin would look like and what the future of your community and uh some of the facilities around uh you know expanding parks or subdivisions and and different ideas uh in the community. uh later on uh we'll come back in November and we'll talk about housing, economic development, and transportation. Uh when we come back in January, we'll talk about the last sets of elements. Uh moving on into March, May, and into June, we'll talk about plan adoption. But this is a a timeline um that we've uh that we've worked out worked with many communities on. And so it provides opportunity for us to work on. And then you get feedback uh from uh you you get to read through the content and provide feedback in a way that works for you. As well as uh later on in this meeting, we'll go over uh sections, goals, and strategies individually and you'll be able to provide comment uh today on some of those some of those items. Next slide. So the community snapshot uh this is just showing some of the demographic data and we'll actually start formatting this uh so you'll so the next time that you see some of the documents we'll actually be taking some of the snapshot data and creating the format you can go to the next slide you'll see some infographics and tables that plot uh the growth and uh of Berlin over time the change by decade and comparing that to other uh communities that are nearby. Hi. Next slide. And then what what we're going to do now is dive into some of the content. Um so I'm going to start with some of the um some of the content that could be really put in different sections. It could be

combi combined into its own section go into agricultural natural resources. Uh but the first goal ensure high quality site and building designs within the community for both public and private property to improve the community aesthetics. uphold uh property values and attract new development, reinforce the character of the city. And we have these three supporting goals that would fit in and we fit that this would be in a and natural resources that fits mostly with the cultural character of the community. Uh and so that those are uh some additions that we see as being a best management practice sort of addition wholesale. We move this up to the front because this is entirely new content that will be making it into your plan. Next slide. So the first element would be um going through what the plan draft actually is. And so what we're going to be going through tonight are goals and strategies. Uh actions are going to be a little bit more finite detail that we'll work out uh in a table that will come uh towards the end of this process. Uh but the lean comprehensive plan that we formulated uh streamlines all the plans into a more work workable document that's uh easier to follow and it it uh underlies but it's underlying this goal as a long-term strategy or as a long-term effort that you'll be pursuing. And the individual strategies are the guidelines and standards that you'll be applying to see that to see that goal through. And then the actions will uh be the direct actions that you'll use to support that strategy and in a roundabout way that goal. Next slide.

Excuse me. So the vision statement as I mentioned had come from uh the previous sorry

it's okay. Uh the previous uh comprehensive plan. So, the city has accomplished a balance between economic growth, conservation, and our natural and cultural and historic resources. A diverse economy supports our hardworking citizens with its well-paying jobs. Proper planning has encouraged commercial and economic growth in the city while focusing new residential development and designated areas. Supporting the city, surrounding the city as well as throughout the county, a visitor can still enjoy the open spaces and natural areas and the way we appeared 20 years ago. The family farms still exist around the city and we have preserved our productive agricultural land and our water resources. The rivers and streams have been well-managed and preserved and have remained uncontaminated. The city has remained safe and has kept rural and small town feel. And so this is some of the uh the framework that we'll apply throughout the throughout the whole plan going to support this uh vision statement and some of the best management practices. So new content that we will be suggesting adding uh much later will be run through the lens or or the of of maintaining this goal and this vision over the long term. Next slide. So moving into the agricultural and natural resources. Next slide. The goal is to uh ensure the productive agricultural lands are preserved in balance with the city's development and growth. And this goes along with filling in uh already existing properties and promoting some newer development maybe within the confines of the city. There's a ways to to look at vacant lands and to to think about repurposing those first before growing outside of the city. Limiting development and prime uh um in in some of the future land use areas that are supported as prime farmland and may be supported for uh preservation efforts. So there may be some annex lands or something you might be looking at in the

future. Uh but we you could support um support that goal by uh reallocating lands that are not in prime farmland. Next slide. Conserve, protect and improve the city and it surrounding environmental resources. So you do this by pro protecting key environmental corridors, promoting water management throughout the city uh that has key impacts on surface water as well as some groundwater ecosystems and maintain the naturally occurring flood water storage areas and discharge uh that prevent some of the regional flood planes from you know over topping their banks and causing some issues. Next slide. These are also continued from the previous slide, but work with uh continuous communities um to preserve some of the wetlands that flow into and out of Berlin. So there you have connected communities that uh could help preserve some of the the total ecosystem around around here. Uh encourages business and industries to adopt practices that limit pollution and and runoff into the river. Uh so there could be some efforts that look at like road runoff or parking lot runoff. uh so that things aren't polluting um from the from the downtown area and engage the public through uh natural resources, recreational facilities to encourage recycling. Uh and so those type of efforts could be done uh in more public places to promote recycling of household waste. Next slide. Creating act and actively using community spaces and events that contribute to the identity of Berlin. So collaborate with uh many different area uh organizations to promote historical and cultural resources and activities throughout the city and then support community events and promote programming and year-round that activate the downtown area and attract residents and visitors to the downtown and support that more lively activated city environment. Next slide.

So this is a preview of some of the maps that you've been provided. Um this is uh the planning area. The area that's grayed outside of that is area that's not in the extra extr territorial jurisdiction of the city. And so we've we've gradeed that down. Uh you can see the two rings here. The inner ring is the city proper and then there's that extr territorial uh planning area that extends 1.5 miles out. And then you can see all the areas in red are designated as prime farmland. and we would talk about potentially not designating that for for future development as part of some of the agricultural conservation practices particularly if the land is uh suited for some of the county agricultural preservation uh funding that's out there. So this is a a map that will also play into some of the development limitations which is next slide. And so you here you'll see uh some of the development limitations such as uh steep slopes and wetland areas uh flood planes and all this works into hazardous to development or hazardous in some way to uh to typical uh the type of development that we typically see uh occurring in these areas. So, we want to dissuade this will end up being an overlay in your future land use map that will look to dissuade development from going in those areas because there's, you know, key environmental features that might be there, steep slopes that would really cause development to be a little bit of a problem. Uh, and so we want to dissuade people from using these uh areas within these uh development limitations. Next slide. So intergovernmental cooperation uh collaborating with neighboring communities and other governmental entities to achieve sustainable growth patterns uh in the Berlin area. So

protect na natural systems within the city's ability to grow uh within that jurisdictional area. Work closely with the school district to foster communication and relationship about planning and growth activities. Uh so inviting school ch school school kids to get invited to get involved in the process. Uh planning um so we've seen people invite their classrooms to planning commission meetings or to have different projects or or to talk about city government more in schools. Um openly communicate and involve non-governmental organizations that have mutual interest in land use planning throughout this community uh such as business organizations. um and promote the continued development of uh uh some of the trail networks that are already surrounding uh Berlin and those different communities.

Next slide.

So, openly communicate and work with the local governments to to manage some of the zoning and environmental um issues uh within your boundary areas. Identify and resolve conflicts and inconsistency between local plans and resolving some of the countywide issues that could potentially affect the city. coordinate planning efforts for outdoor recreation to identify complimentary complimentary recreation investments where service areas could potentially overlap around some of those uh high high value natural amenities that you have uh and educate residents about some of the available community activities and facilities in the area. Next slide. And then enhance the efficiency and quality of public services by collaborating with other governmental entities within the region. So, this just means to work cooperatively cooperatively with other units of government to to seek like cost-effective or or there's even grants that you could go after uh innovations and planning grants to to look at combined services or other kind of like public facilities and services that could work be worked out in some mutual agreements. Next slide. Utilities and communities facilities. We would prov talk about goal one providing community facilities and services that create a safe, attractive and healthy environment. Meet the needs of the future and current residents. And we would do this by collaborating with private organizations that serve your recreational needs and especially those that focus on the needs of seniors, uh, youth, and low-income families. And where feasible, we would uh want public use facilities to be where they're accessible to a majority of of users by walking. And then we would want to provide adequate facilities to to house the city offices and equipment to assure more efficient government and make sure the technology is available uh to have uh open access to meetings and and those types of things and then assure health and medical facilities are available to

meet the needs of all residents. Next slide. Parks and trails. We would actively pursue opportunities for acquiring new land for development of additional parklands as as uh development uh needs would change over the over the course of uh Berlin's growth. Incorporating historically significant areas into uh park expansions and and improvement efforts uh toward a more communitywide um basis. develop and maintain safe, attractive community gathering spaces and park facilities um that may be more passive and active recreation uh that support those natural amenities that I mentioned earlier. Next slide. And for emergency services, we would want to continue to evaluate the performance of the public safety services that currently exist and to to look at those how they are responding to the needs of the communities and encourage volunteerism among those organizations and ensure that public safety facilities are optimally located for acceptable response times. And then partner with neighboring jurisdictions to sustain highquality public safety services in those overlapping areas where there's a little bit of wiggle room. uh where uh partnerships could exist between uh to balance those budget constraints that may exist. Next slide. Um goal one is continued for waste management services would maintain your current contracts for waste disposal services. Uh continue to encourage recycling and minimize waste uh to to put less of a burden on some of those services. uh going back to supporting or educating people about uh more communitywide recycling efforts. Uh community uh continue to provide public education and awareness of the recycling opportunities uh and different ecycle type organizations that might be out there. Next slide. in coordination with more non-governmental organizations. You

could explore new public private partnerships that maintain uh communication across these different organizations and um collaborate with the private and nonprofit organizations for some of the public private partnerships that could exist particularly with serving the youth, elderly and lowincome residents and and to work with the school district to maintain that high level of service. uh the plans for the growing needs of the community such as new influxes of students with uh Berlin's growth and things like that. Next slide. And for infill development, we would want to focus a little bit more on using vacant land or underutilized land that would be in in the city proper before looking to to expand out a great deal. Of course, there's going to be some interest in development where you'll have single family detached homes, but there may also be uh some development that may happen within the city to promote some more affordable type housing uh because that would provide uh more adequate water, sewer and other infrastructure to support that type uh at a limited cost to the city uh to support that type of development. So maximizing the efficiency of investment in existing infrastructure by using uh relying mostly on infill within the planned service areas. Uh discontin discourage uh inefficient like leapfrog development through different annexation processes that would require lots of infrastructure to be extended outside of the city and then maintain and improve uh utility infrastructure so it has adequate capacity and quality to serve your existing and future residents. Next slide. And we would want to invo with any type of development that we would want to get outside of the city or at the edges. We want to avoid uh environmental sensitive areas. So the planning of locations of utilities so that impacts would be less

adverse towards these natural communities that um have a a strong tie to environmental resources and natural resources within the community. And then strongly discourage development that isn't tied to sewer. So we want to focus on sewer and water type development so that sewer so that you wouldn't have to rely on septic systems. Next slide. Uh continue to work on burying existing utilities where feasible as redevelopment and street reconstruction allow. Maintaining the city ordinances to decrease light pollution while promoting public safety, more efficient street lighting. continue to support public and private partnerships to colllocate communication facilities. Exploring the opportunities to improve internet connectivity throughout with throughout the city with and uh beyond with uh state and federal grant programs. We want to continue also to identify the capacity with existing city wells and see how future development would be overlapping with the existing use and continued demand of that. uh locating future municipal wells in areas where there would have minimal impact from uh adjacent land uses in some of the recharge areas and then uh encourage uh water conservation methods methods and practice uh through public education and outreach. Uh there have been different programs that have used uh that have supported things like no flush toilets to to use less water or replacing older fixtures. There's been some incentives that have been provided uh by local communities if they are are growing rapidly and see higher peak water usage. Next slide. And then parcels that are within the city on septic systems. Uh we always like to encourage uh for those to be connected to public sewer in accordance with the city ordinances and

mitigate any excessive infiltration and inflow into the sanitary sewer system as capacity and other things need to change within the city. Next slide. So providing adequate services for the disposal of of solid waste and then improving the quality of surface water runoff by implementing some best storm water management practices and tying that into some of the ordinance that that you may have in terms of what may be running off parking lots and streets uh into some of the river ecosystems. Uh and then encouraging the residential and non-residential properties to uh implement additional storm water management techniques. Uh this could be on a volunteer basis just through awareness. I know that some communities have put it out there that they may um take advantage of c some certain benefits uh if there are uh there's different programs that could uh support th those initiatives on a volunteer basis. Thanks. So with all that information um all that is a summary of what you've been provided in that roughly 50page document uh with the maps and stuff provided. So, I would hope that you would have taken notes and looked at some of the content and see where this does and does not fit for Berlin and see if we need to update some of the things coming from the previous plan and then pull in some other things from the survey. We will actually be back in November and we'll have a preliminary survey results. We'll attach that as well as you'll be seeing content uh from uh that's that's for formatted into the report actually. So there's in November you'll get a lot of information um from us regarding some of the things that we'll be following up on for housing, economic development and transportation and the survey and then some of the introductory content for the snapshot. So there'll be a lot to review um and then we'll take a break all the way through to January and then you'll have

some more to review for the end part of that. Um, but this is a snapshot of the information we'll be collecting with the survey. It's currently live. Uh, this QR code will take you right to it. Uh, this is a flyer that we've uh made so that you can post it in say your libraries. Uh, we've had people post them in grocery stores. Uh, essentially the plan commission sort of like takes them to places where community gathering boards are and and then gets the word out that way. Um, next slide. So, the next step would be to revise or to review this first round of elements and get me comments back either uh on paper or more preferably in the the digital copy of that so that we can incorporate those into uh future drafts. Uh then we'll present the first draft of a kind of a final product of some of this content and the the first draft of the community snapshot uh into what will be the final plan. And so you'll actually get a snapshot of what all that will look like uh nicely formatted. So you're not just going to get a word document like we sent it to you. you're going to get some photos and other things put in there and some nice diagrams and tables that will be uh more useful for you and more graphically pleasing. Uh you'll also have a copy of this presentation as part of your minutes so you can go back and look at that if if you want. So I'll provide that to the mayor and to Tim. Um and then that'll also have my uh contact information where you can reach me by email. Of course you can also uh get in touch with me by phone by calling MSA. So, if there's any questions or anything I could follow up on, but next month or when I come back in November, uh after uh we've done the public open house in October, uh we'll talk about housing, economic development, and

transportation. So, with that, I would have any questions? I do. Um what what year was the u comprehensive plan you reviewed? The comprehensive plan that we re used was the one that was done in I believe 2008 2009 there were and we have a couple of other plans that were that were provided to us. So we used a combination of of I want to say three different plans that were used to come up with this. Yeah. Um because this was this was the last one I had was was from 2013.

Okay. which was um the plan and uh the market analysis because I was looking for the vision statement and I couldn't find it here. Okay. So that's why I was questioning that. The other thing is when you talk about the Berlin school district, do you include the proprio schools? I I I think so. Yes. I think I think that it's all encompassing of all school districts, but I can make sure that the both districts are included because both of those pro schools are growing in when there are number of students one right off the bat while you're on the school portion under parks and recreation um Washington school is still listed okay

it's non-existent it's now the boys and girls club and also I'm not aware of what our city forest is oh that's out on highway E oh somebody donated land and city forest I know that there's school for us also. So, I was just making sure. Yeah, I don't see the parochial schools listed in here. Um, yeah, it's not listed in there, but when we refer to school districts, typically we were we can add that in as so it wasn't part of the previous plan, but we can add that is what I was saying

because I understand our school district, the or the Brooklyn schools uh population is going down. Yes, our um enrollment numbers are decreasing. Yeah. I to a great degree. Yes. Okay. And that's a concern I'm sure to a lot of people what's going on there. Oh, for sure.

But I would say that the and we're talking about the school district like All Saints School is just outside of city limits, but still they are a big part of the community. So, I wanted to make sure that we are including all of them. Okay. Especially it's a new build. It's a new facility and um I think especially there's a lot of people there that would like to be involved or should be involved. All right. And it strong people from other too.

And then obviously St. John's is our other um prochial school in town. in in one thing that I was uh concerned about was what uh seeing that chart with the populations you know piece that I believe the population in Berlin um has almost been stable for over 100 years you know that from what you know when I've looked at other reports and stuff uh so what is predicting this downturn in population.

Uh we get that directly from the Wisconsin Department of Administration. So we're not responsible for those. Okay. But we don't do we know the causes. So I've heard some people have left Berlin because of the school district.

They they take into they take into account a lot of sociodemographic data in their population projections. I don't I don't necessarily think it's I don't think it's a secret some of the formulas they use, but it it does require a lot of analysis of the age of the population, the the in and out migration and stuff that they do for each individual community. And I would mention that a lot of the school district numbers too when we're looking at the play of um the de decrease in enrollment if you just Google right now solely one of the biggest um contributing factors and that is the birth rates. The birth rates are drastically down. So I think that would contribute also to the population.

Yeah. If you look at it compared to like the entire state of Wisconsin those numbers are dropping as well. It's not just us. It's the Green Lake County and Waser County. All of them are consistently going down. Yeah, I I realize that we've got to talk about things that are also incre how you how you uh prevent that flood out of the city of population moving. You got to make it more inviting or something. Yeah. Not only the school district, I think a lot of it also has to do with people just having smaller families.

Oh, I'm sure. you know, and so we just have a decrease in population because people just aren't having as many kids. It's been st fairly stagnant over the years because people move, people move in, they move out, and it's held steady. But as people continuously have smaller and smaller families or just don't have kids and the cost of living goes up. Oh yeah. Yeah. Makes a big difference. Yeah. There's just there there aren't people to live here or anywhere. Yeah. But, you know, if you read other types of publications, you know, there's this big move of people wanting to move away from the big city. So, what can we do to, you know, welcome people here? Have more housing.

That's a big one is we just don't have a lot of housing here. Although, I did drive around last week and I was amazed how many more for sale signs are finally up. But, do you see how long they stay for sale? Most of them are pretty quick turns. I have a friends that are trying to buy property or housing in Berlin. They're pending sales like within a week. As soon as they put them up, um they're selling, especially a lot of the out of town people that are coming from the big cities have the money to spend that people are asking right now because they're able to sell their properties for much higher than what we have for sale here in Burland.

Right. and a neighbor of mine. I talked to her this morning and she said, you know, they're putting the house up for sale and uh she talked to the realtor and it's it's a house that needs work. Mhm. And um she said this realtor has two entrepreneurs who want to come in here and find these homes and fix them up, which is kind of exciting. That would be nice. Yeah. Very nice.

Any other questions? So, and yeah, uh from staff and I think we had sent you some feedback and I'm sure that'll be incorporated. Just clarification, um is this extr territorial reference that you're making different than what we previously had in ordinance that had been u repealed a few years ago? I'm if if it has been repealed, we can remove that reference in the

Well, I just mean I understand the I at the same time if there's a distinction between what's in ordinance and what's I mean like you're talking about annexation. And I suppose that that repealing that doesn't necessarily preclude

it it doesn't necessarily preclude from the area actually existing is is one thing, you know, like but if you're repealing your enforcement of things within that area like that would be one thing because it's nice to include that 1.5 miles within the planning area at least in our scale because you could think of any growth that's likely to happen with the city is going to be within those that area. So showing that on a map and showing the different resources that are available is is kind of uh that's where we get our start from putting that in there. So however you want to talk about it whether it's in the ordinance or repealed or not that that area is worth showing I think. Well, I agree with Tim on that one because, you know, we did that whole thing for the makers revising the ordinances for housing and stuff

and I don't think anything's ever been done to it to promote people. Okay. I'm just saying we've made some ordinance changes what maybe in the last 18 months. Oh, yeah. You know, and and it's I don't even know if people are aware of them. Okay. I don't think that's related though to what we're discussing on the the radius. I mean, yes, we have made some adjustments, but I think they're pointing to the um mile and a half things.

Yeah. So, our right Tim, that's what you're referring to like that map up there. So, the black outline is the city limits and they're referring to the mile and a half outside of it. the rest of the coloring. Is that what our preference is or just the city of Berlin? Is that what you're getting at, Tim?

Um, I just talking just strictly that we uh that there's the fact that that was that extr territorial like the enforcement from the cities u was repealed. But uh if I mean I understand also in the spirit of intergovernmental cooperation that we are obviously going to be uh trying to cooperate with and working in tandem with the counties, towns, etc. Just a comment because I kind of chuckled when I read the thing about working with the town. One time there was a council of a town of Aurora, town of Senica

and um town of Berlin and and and it was another commission because I was on it for a while but it it wound up being very contentious and the other people backed out. I'm just saying you know it was very very contentious. I think there was a lot of jealousy of the town of uh Berlin because of the revenues they get from the waste. That's interesting. Appreciate that. Yeah, it was it was real real interesting. I mean, there was I thought there was going to be fist fights on some of the meetings. Oh boy. I'd be interested to know how much more how much longer of a time frame they have with that waste disposal site in the town of Maryland

because I know There was had been talk, you know, eventually something else will have to be found. I guess I don't know if they have an exact timeline on that. Be curious to know. Sounds like a definite hot potato in many different ways. I mean, it'd be something we'd have to plan for if there is, you know, a definitive timeline for that. That would be a good question to ask. Yeah, because their financial thing will change dramatically. Oh, for sure. And I would hope that they've started planning for that. That committee uh commission started with it. Was it the A something or you know? Yeah, the ETZA.

I'm sorry. ETZA might territorial. Yeah. be interesting to look up at some of the, you know, what people got upset about because it was working for a period of time. I know you have quite the binder of stuff there. Is that our previous comprehensive plan available electronically? Yeah, it's on the website. Okay. At least the uh 2011 or 2010 2011 one looks like it was approved in 2012, but that's their most recent one. So nothing happened with the 2013 or the That's the market study. That's the market study. That's also on the website.

Well, a lot of what's in here is what's in here also. Well, right. But that's not Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's What about the last verb thing that went through? Is that being reviewed also? Yeah, that's in that should be incorporated in especially economic development chapters because it just seems I've been through this forever this process because there's a ven diagram where there's overlap for these and there should be as I think that one visual was saying that it it had some examples of that I mean the open space recreation will literally also be another where there'll be overlap

because I know what one of these on the business end of it that's was probably at towards the end of the um chamber of commerce here that and we had it down at Goodrich Furniture. She uh kind of opened up the store and let us and we had tons of business people at that meeting. You know, it was kind of more casual and you know, they expressed a lot of stuff. So, that was pretty good, too. So, there's only one public involvement meeting, correct?

Well, there's there is there's two technically because you'll have a public hearing at the end of this process towards the adoption. If you went back to the schedule, the open house is meant to gather public engagement for actually drafting some of the sections. So, we'll take some of the comment through uh through the draft and incorporate that into the different elements. Uh you'll actually have a public hearing in May of 26 sometime. I think I think that that those are actually the dates that that we'll that the plan commissions are on. Um and so it would be that day uh which would be uh s the public hearing would be kind of like a an open house if you will but it will be on the actual draft. So there will be

right that's when the decisions have already been made I guess. So that's my concern is our our our only really public um input visioning worker shops is is a week away and I don't know that we've done our due diligence to try to spread the word to community members, business owners, school districts. I mean a week away is not in my in my we haven't we haven't done it yet. So, we could if we wanted to move. I mean, in your opinion, your professional opinion, is a oneweek notice an okay time frame?

I think it it's going to hit uh everybody, you know, if you've been advertising it or have a a market strategy that could like putting it in grocery stores and and getting it out to but one week. I think you're always going to have limitations in timeline. I mean, optimally you'd have like two or three weeks of lead time, but

I just think we're spending investing a lot of money into this and we're putting a lot of time into it and we wanted the whole purpose was to do it right and I don't think promoting in one week's time frame is is going to do the trick here. Especially we just talked about involving the school district, the different schools, the businesses. In my mind, I think that uh one week is not a good time frame. We should have been promoting this a month ago. Well, would you like to do it at the Because we don't have anything for October's plan commission meeting. So, by the end of October, I think is a way better. We could change the dates on the the the materials and we could even keep the survey open till then and then I feel like that would be in our best interest.

Would it be beneficial to hold more than one and I don't know what's in our contract if that allows? We only have one that's in the contract and so that's to plan properly and make sure that we're getting all of our um places of interest involved. I don't think one week is is going is not only is it not acceptable, but I don't think that it's it's what we're asking for, right?

Yeah. especially when we're putting this much time and effort into it that we should have planned a little bit better for so that we can properly whether that's circulating the letters, the emails, making sure um that the different schools have all the info, a lot of the businesses have the info so that they can spread the word to their to their workers. But I just think if we're going to do this right, that one week is not um enough time. Okay. I I concur with that also. I

I mean I just know how much over the years we spent and how many meetings. I just I think it's a waste of time for everybody to show up next week and have minimal people involved. And it's real strange because we had um we had the open houses type thing where we had people in and looking at the maps and everything and there was a huge difference in comments coming from the business section residential. Yep. Yep. The other stakeholders. I mean it was huge and it was even for beer bickers there was a full house. Like I don't know that we were expecting that. And there was a there was a full house. There was a full house. So we also have the option of um using the school district, the auditorium if we ever need to. Um

yeah. And I think with the Burbeck, what we also did was actually have copies of the surveys like at the libraries at the library and other public places that people could pick it up. But I still think to be respectful and to be transparent with the community that hey, we're we're welcoming your input and we want you to be involved. Um I know as a m busy mom that planning something a week out is uh not going to happen. So if we want to give our business owners and and just anybody in the community a more respectable timeline, I think that we need to push it back.

All right. We'll set the date for the October plan commission meeting the last Tuesday. So the same time frame is that Jesse is that doable? That was going to be my question. Um, normally this commission meets at 6 versus if it was before the common council, they meet at 7. So would you want to do 4:30 to 6 and keep plan commission at 6 or are you talking about moving plan commission? I'd suggest moving planning commission. I I think 7 o'clock is still a good time. Yeah. So, you want to stick with the same 5:30 to 7 and then 7 o'clock hit the plan commission. I think so. I think so. Okay. So, then

not that we want to be here any later, but I still think that that would be more accommodating for the community. Just wanted to make sure um that we're all on the same page. So, this would be the 28th, sorry, to 7. And then um let's contact the paper and get it in the next two, right? Um 28th and get out on the website that it's been rescheduled for the 28th

and put it on Facebook right away. And then let's also make a list of all committees um emails that we have and send it out to them saying that it's been rescheduled as well as any businesses that we have. um contact for um to let them know that it's been rescheduled and also give them the link and QR code to the survey. The nonprofit were really good at come the nonprofits in the city were also very good of coming to the surveys and meetings. We do not have an active chamber. We do not no business group.

So that's where we have some of those community groups. It was listed um before the ABC group um has done a lot of what those groups would have done. Um, so they're a good group to lean on, but I agree a lot of us that are on all the nonprofits are on all the same nonprofits or a different, you know, there's I don't think you can nonprofits per say. No, no, no, no. And we have very active ones. Yeah, absolutely. But the email list, I know Tim has one or two email lists that we distribute information through. Sometimes we can put it out that way, but then also within that email say, "Please feel free to share this information with anyone." and everyone that you think may have an interest.

Tim, if you can extend the um extend the invitation to the schools. I don't know if EMTT is on your list and then all saints and St. could have been, but I will make sure that he schools.

And then also, of course, when we do the plan commission agenda, make sure it's not at 7 p.m. Yep. Okay. Thank you guys. I just I did not feel comfortable with a week. Well, I think it's a really good time to move it because on October 10th that unity committee is going to be meeting and discussing, you know, they're grouping together also. So, I think it's good to to see their results because I know the school superintendent and everybody seems to. Okay. Any other questions or do you have anything else for us that you need from us? That's it. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very much. You're welcome.

Okay. So then we are on to number nine which is the zero lot line ordinance amendment proposal and presentation of concept. Okay. I'll try to also make this as much to the point as possible while still Yeah, there's provided. So, we have a builder in the community that um had reached out and was looking to build this type of um development. I believe they are specifically uh focused on duplex, but uh when I look at what other communities have done, it seems like it's worth looking into. I mean, we're going to do it doing it right. Um so u including any thing that's two dwellings or more on a lot um the their objective of this is that say they have a lot that's 10,000 square feet u and would be built to have a duplex that would be legal in our with all of our standards here. But if it's zero lot line, uh that would be it would be a substandard size lot when you cut that in half. And there, of course, where there's no lot line and there's a building that's constructed essentially with the lot line going right through the middle of the building. Uh at least from the outside, that's what it looks like. Um we'd want to make sure to have some sort of standard set to decide what still fits the character of what we would like in the city. U I mean I'm leaving this open-ended if the commission has preferences if you would like to continue looking into this as sort of at the request of the builder. Uh their specifications were to do something similar to a couple other communities. I believe they had said

Clover and Watmo both allow what they were proposing which was about that I'd say minimum of the house I live in if it burned down I couldn't rebuild on the lots yeah that type of issue is something that u and there's plenty of them when you drive around town you see these oddball size lots or

that's a little bit of my concern too even like posing this and why I wasn't sure if I'd even recommend like going to immediately to hearing is I think if we open this up uh we might want to open up looking at just old sort of housing types and seeing what really would be I mean where do we want to draw that line for builders what's acceptable what's not what is our community's character what is not so are you saying that we need to do a little bit more homework on this a little bit more research before

Yeah and I feel like I I'm content I I mean I included the most relevant examples there are probably six others I looked at that are fairly redundant with what's here. These ones were just the most concise and clear. I mean, I like the visual that's right above this Durand one that shows you what we're looking at here. This actually looks like it's a four uh building or four res dwelling type of uh Hold on, I have to get through all the stuff.

Sorry, it's on the second to last page. Um, believe this would actually be a multifamily one where you'd be able to have up to four dwellings, but as you can see, there's still only two areas of zero watt line there. Yeah. Otherwise, um, I should probably let people read Tim, can you share a little bit about the districts that this potentially could impact as to what the setbacks it would be replacing are? Just uh

Okay. Yeah. in your mind too of if this is the um yeah R2 one um it would just be the side set back if it's one dwelling it would have and normally would be developed where it would have to have six feet from the lot line obviously zero lot line would mean zero feet because it's essentially touching the other structure where do they measure that lot line from where it's surveyed when it's subdivided well is Is it from the edge of the sidewalk or the edge of the terrace?

It depends on where the the GI where the um the actual numbers, not even just a specific from the sidewalk. It's from the points from the survey, right? um for a side lot line. I mean, it depends if it's a corner lot, if it's a weird shaped lot and all that stuff, but usually your side lot lines um when he's talking about that six feet, that would be from like my house to the lot line to the neighbor's house. So actually normally so you'd be getting rid of the space that we require between the houses

would be impact how far back from the sidewalk you needed to be or how much room you would have to have in your rear lot. This would be your side to side. Now obviously not all lots are a box. But for the most part you're talking about your the side of the house to the side of the house next to that. My my neighbor's house is almost right on our lot line. So there's a lot of that's what this the community is full of it. What full of of the irregular the lot lines you know how many older houses are sitting how many garages are over the lot line

or or you know well crazy stuff because the house next uh north of me and if they stuck their hand out the window and I stuck mine we could be shaking hands. Mhm. But but my house the it was started and built in 1867 and they kept adding on deal with so I don't think they even had ordinances at point you know and everything was updated in the 70s you know so it was kind of like it's a nice house

and it works for obviously a retire rate because it's a small lot. So I should be more specific that the request that we've had is actually u essentially a canal street area that's and this should obviously ordinances are not for a street or a district but the uh this would be new but infill um in that area. So pertaining to new lots. Yes. So he just wants to have no requirements of how house how close these houses can be together. Is that what I'm gathering? like to have the ability to to extend

potentially have duplexes that are functioning as separate single family ones next but super close to each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. almost like a rowhouse situation where I mean I suppose if or town if it's a if it's a continuous situation but I would want them to have restrictions from if there's a neighboring property I don't want them to be able to build right up next to that in a continuous situation that had separation on each end maybe people are buying but yeah that would require a lot of um

so as you'll see in the examples that these communities have and I'm going to try to again make this as concise as possible. A lot of them they use conditional use to regulate. I'd say that so they would still have to come to us.

They'd still have to come to the board of appeals and uh present that they are essentially going to be compliant with the rest of the intents purposes of the zoning ordinance. Uh that they're not going to harm the self the health, safety, welfare of the public uh by doing this. And they'll prove that by I mean in a lot of these they'd be they'd have the site plan they'd have that application they'd have a legal agreement that would be I don't know if it's

so for instance if they say they created you know six side by side by side by side and you get to the end one and they come to us for a conditional use permit we decide we see that the next property owner is not them that it's another open lot by or another lot from somebody else. We don't necessarily want them to build right up until the that line on that one. So, that's something that we could determine or they could determine at that. Yeah. And they should be u I'd say once they get to the end of the building, it should still have the normal sideyard, right? There'd be one normal sideyard, one one that could be abuing the other building. Um I think that it's important that we don't get the definition of lot line. No.

And setback confused, right? No. And I'm I'm Well, I'm not. Well, I have a bad setback problem, too. So, I mean, with our existing ordinance, you know, I I have close to neighbors and I'm I'm practically on the sidewalk. So, I'm saying that the say if they're building on that last lot, um they wouldn't be able to build right up to the lot line. We would have those setbacks. We would have we wouldn't grant that one. We wouldn't allow them. Right. Is that what you're I You have to be careful with conditional use. Because even though it's a conditional use, if they meet the conditions that you have outlined under conditional use, this is my only worry. I just

you don't really have an option to not grant it if it meets the conditions that you set forward. So, you'd have to be very clear of that intent within your conditions if you go that route. I'm just I just don't I want to make sure that like Terry said that somebody's not building up a house up right up against to the neighbors one if if it's their own properties and they're but then again what happens if they sell it down the road? I don't I don't know. This was a well on the up. So we don't have to make it

I'm assuming currently right now they're not allowed to correct. Currently right now we would have lot um setback requirements from every every lot line. So, it sounds like I'm sure that it may vary a bit between depending on what residential district you're talking about, but it sounds like six feet is kind of one of our more standard ones. So, normally you would have at least 12 feet between houses because you'd have to have at least six feet from this house to line and six feet from that house to the outline. And so, um, you also of course have a front yard set back and a rear yard set back and those should not be affected. And those would be affected. you'd still need to maintain those. But if you eliminate

um that requirement to have the six feet or whatever it is in that district, then then yes, you could have them ab budding um right on that that lot line. So that's what you have to decide if you think that's appropriate for any of the districts. I mean that's that's the choice. And if you do and you're concerned about the row, like you don't want the row to be allowed, then you would have to write it in that it would only apply to one of the sideyards or something like that. Tim, have you seen that in any of the codes where it's simply allowed on one of the sideyards? Yeah. Yeah, that's that's probably the norm. More typical.

Yeah. I mean, I like I say, I've have other examples and a lot of those other examples are more urban that I didn't include because I didn't think they were quite as relevant, but they spoke to doing this more as a multif family. I mean, there are cities that do have this where there are a number in a row. I'm not sure how you exactly I mean, that does seem tricky to I I will need to dig more into that. We I was looking more focused on the two f or the two dwellings where they're done this way. I mean the pro thought that I think the builder would bring to this is that you're already allowed to do this if it's a condo arrangement and the everything but the zero outline is still being maintained to the standard.

I I do understand that Tim but you know what are the predict uh protections for the existing homeowners? you know, a tornado goes through, they can rebuild their house, but they don't measure to existing um ordinances, ordinances or whatever, you know, what what what is the protection for that homeowner in our city. So, some of this stuff can be grant uh grandfathered.

Yeah. So, the non-conforming essentially allows, I'd say, a good degree of rebuilding. I mean it's um in those casualty events that's there's nuance to that but they generally I mean but I there's a huge difference between talking about what you're talking about for new construction versus the ex yeah hundreds of residents here in Berlin who have funky lot lines yeah those funky ones are more what I'd say exist are protected under the nonforming legal non-conforming as we'd understand it,

what's allowed. Um, yeah, where I guess what is tricky is with these, you don't want to create new non-conforming or uh ones that are going to be built in a neighborhood where it looks like it's out of place. I mean where it's not achieving that health, safety, general welfare that uh well obviously find you're finding them in what you would consider more like historic districts where these homes were built a long time ago. You know there's a house kitty corner for me that is one of those Berlin books that that is claimed to be the oldest house in Berlin.

Oh yeah. you know, and you know, I look at it and it's same as me. Really, really close to the sidewalk, you know. Um, the only uh life-saving thing for them is the one neighbor has a double lot, you know, so there there's no issue on that neighbor and the other neighbor was able to build uh had enough land to build a garage. So, so that block might have been a little bit bigger. kind of drives you crazy when you're living in a block like that. So, does the commission I mean I think we need to do more homework. I think so. Yeah. Something we can look into. I wouldn't I wouldn't cross it out or you know take it off.

So, do we want to focus on It's sounding to me and I could be hearing this wrong and be putting my own bias here. Do we want to focus really on what is a pertinent like two dwelling situation? That's kind of what these ordinances that I did include the Kimberly portage Durand um seem to more speak to and those are probably more analogists than I had number that were in Rine or Brown County uh that I mean those are the more urban situations that maybe don't so you could you speak into the mic please

you could um construct the ordinance so that it would be limited to like you said two structures together and not a rowhouse situation. Okay. Right. That's that helps. I can certainly bring that. And yeah, I would imagine I'd have to again go through the ordinance to and subdivision specifically to make sure that there's nothing that uh undermines any of this. But uh we do already have the existing definition. And actually the existing definition I apparently was not reading real carefully when I put the staff report together because I just see that it does only speak to two. So, this could drive that. Okay.

To to eliminate any possibility of someone wanting to build row houses. Do we know what this guy's plan is? This developer's plan is like

I believe that it is actually just to build these pairs and have them where there's a zero outline in the middle. It makes them I mean to be blunt and I've heard this in a number of seminars especially recently with the amount the cost to build homes. This is the most cost effective for the builders. It's the most cost effective down the line for the home buyers. U I mean it's probably a hair more just due to the lack of some legal or the different arrangement of the legal fees to versus condo. It's a hair more preferable to them. Um, and that's it is one of those things that's been trending upwards, but uh we'd still be I'd say fairly early on this.

I think it bears further research first of all, but I think we should push it off until after this comprehensive plan because I I really think after October, you mean is a lot of stuff we're going to be reading and having to digest. Okay. So maybe use the November um timeline, Tim, to have some more materials for us by then. And I can try to draft something of what the assuming that at least in the zoning section, I could probably fairly readily draft what the ordinance would look like there.

Um if there's anything else that's elsewhere in the uh our ordinances, then I'll that will I will find that out as I go along. Okay, sounds good. Right. Thank you. Is that all you need from us, Tim, on that one? That is and I appreciate your patience as I Yeah, just trying to not get ahead of things. I like I say, may have been tempted to even draft something like that, but if I did it and then it was not what any of you all would like to see, that would have been just

Well, I'm sure some of these older cities have the same problems we have, right? Oh, it's a statewide I mean this Yeah, the housing affordability, the building affordability, even places that have really strong networks of builders in their cities are having this issue where it's just very difficult right now.

I think of a house I owned in Milwaukee. It was very close to the side of the other neighbor's house. It was close to the street, big old Victorian, but it had the silot was next a lot. I kind of embrace some of that. The older homes or those older areas are wonky. Okay, so moving on to number 10, old business. Does anybody have any old business? Number 11, new business to be used to request items of new business be put on a future agenda. All right. Then number 12, our next meeting date is October 28th with that workshop beforehand. And then number 13, I'll make a motion to adjurnn.

I'll second that. Motion a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Meeting adjourned at 8:14. Thanks guys. [Music]