City Council - Regular Meeting

All right. I call the North City Council work session order at 602. No, we do roll. Sorry. Sure. I do whatever you asked me to do. I know I couldn't remember which I said it now or later. Mayor Dro present. Councelor DeForch present. Councelor Egodorn present. Council present. Councelor Weber present.

Councelor Lington present. So uh I Bill, do you have your shoulder?

I just quick introduction. So as Oart from uh BDH city attorney um is going to lead us through a discussion of purchasing rules, where they are now and for how long and why it's a good idea to think about updating them and then discussing different ways of thinking about that. Um as well as a bit of a word as you probably saw in the in the packet about um the city council's role as a contract review board. So, um, you have the attorney for an hour. Avail yourselves. So, go ahead, please. Thank you. And would you like me to, um, do the presentation and share my screens? That would be great if you wouldn't mind.

Okay, let me Hello everyone. Let me uh she goes she Okay. Is everyone able to see my screen? We can see you. Yes.

Perfect. Hello again everyone. Um it's great to meet you virtually. Um my name is Asen Onard and I'm one of the public contracting attorneys at uh Berry Eller and Hammond. And the uh goal of tonight's session is to go over uh some public contracting topics. Um to the next slide. Um right just a minute. I'm just also trying to figure out how to move my uh slideshow while I was talking. Um There we go. Um, tonight's agenda, um, our goals are to go over some public contracting, uh, overview topics to hopefully, um, educate everyone on state law, what the city's current rules are, and perhaps some areas of update that would be beneficial. Um and then if we have time at the end uh we will go over uh various types of procurements. Um so the the ultimate goal following this session is that um we would be bringing to you an updated version of the city's public contracting rules in the near future for review and approval. And it would be helpful, you know, to get your feedback on preferences and what approach that you would like to see um when we work on those updates. Um and at the outset, I wanted to note um you know what the contracting rules authorize um the city to do versus what other policies come into play. So the contracting rules establish the

procurement processes that the city must use um when the city contracts with another party. So depending on what you're purchasing, you know, goods, services, personal services, the rules will dictate what procurement process you have to use in doing that versus there is a separate policy that would govern how the city ultimately binds itself um to a contract and to obligate itself um to performance obligations and that is um pursuant to a separate signature authority policy. So at the outset I wanted to make that distinction. Um so state law establishes local governing bodies as the local contract review board. Um and the attorney general maintains a set of model rules that apply um to public contracting procedures for all local governments. So if you have not adopted your own rules or you're silent in a particular area um the AG model rules would apply um but you you know you are permitted to adopt your own rules. In fact, in certain areas such as personal services, you must adopt your own rules. And then um each time the AG updates rules, which happens, I would say every 2 to 3 years, then you should be reviewing your rules to, you know, make uh updates that align with what the AG has done. Um so typically uh the contract review board under state law can delegate some of its authority. Um and a lot of that authority is delegated to the city manager who is you know the purchasing agent for the city and would conduct you know the day-to-day activities um to to carry out you know those day-to-day purchasing activities. Um, and there are

certain things under state law, for example, that a contract review board or council would not be able to delegate. There's something called a special procurement, for example. It's an exemption from the competitive bidding require requirements that cannot be delegated. Council must approve those. Just in contrast, as another example, a sole source procurement, you know, that is something that can be delegated um to the city manager. So, under um North Plains uh code, as with you know, other cities, council is designated as a local contract review board and then your rules are set forth in resolution um 1250, which was passed in 2005 um and has not been updated, you know, since that time. Um, so again to to talk a little bit about, you know, authority and council authority versus authority of the city manager and city staff, um, under your current signature policy, the city manager signature authority is $50,000. So just by way of example, I've listed on this slide under that authority what the city manager can do. So, um they can without specific council authorization, right, um enter into contracts that are $50,000 or less um as long as it's, you know, within the city's, you know, current fiscal year budget. Um the city manager can issue advertisements for bids or proposals. Um the city manager can uh purchase goods and services again as long as it's under $50,000. Um they can make a determination that something can be awarded, you know, as a

sole source contract. And again, these are just um some examples. Um let's see. So again, North Plains contracting rules were last updated in 2005. And as you can imagine, since 2005, a fair amount has changed. Um certainly uh a lot of the procurement thresholds under state law have been um updated. And again, where uh a city's rules are silent, the the AG model rules come in. So, this is uh intended to be an overview just to give you um some insight into where North Plains's various procurement thresholds are currently under under your 2005 rules versus the amounts that um are currently allowed under under state law. And so, again, it's it's different depending on uh what you are purchasing. Um so if I could start with the goods and services column for example um you know the overall framework is usually a small procurement which you can directly award to anyone without going through a competitive process. An intermediate procurement um requires you know three competitive quotes and then for a large procurement that's where you have to do an RFP or an ITB you know depending on what you're purchasing. So for goods and services, um the current North Plains threshold is $5,000. So up to $5,000, you can directly award a contract if you're buying goods or services. Anything more than $5,000, you would have to follow the three quote process or issue an RFP or ITB. Um

whereas under state law you can actually go up to $25,000 now for those small procurements. For intermediate procurements you can actually go up to $250,000 and anything more than that requires a formal process. Um personal services I'm moving to the left here. So that is an area where cities have a great deal of discretion. um you uh can put in place basically uh whatever rules you want to follow um for personal services. And so um many cities follow the the state law thresholds that are, you know, the same for small, intermediate, and formal, but you have the ability to sort of set those dollar amounts um however you want to. And also um many jurisdictions because they have a lot of flexibility for personal services will identify um categories where they can make direct awards such as um you know IT consultants and auditors and legal experts and things like that for architects and engineers and public improvements. the the thresholds are a little bit different. And this is actually um an area where North Plains your rules are silent. And so you would just be following um basically the AG rules in those areas. And so because your rules are silent um what I have here on the slide would would apply in terms of the dollar amounts and the procurement methods. Um so again as I mentioned earlier I wanted to make a distinction between um procurement types versus signature

authority. Um signature authority again is the dollar value above which you know staff must come to council to seek approval for a contract or procurement related action. It's completely dependent on your local policy. It's separate from procurement thresholds. It's completely up to you. Um how you want to structure your signature policy and what dollar amounts you would like to include. So here um I have included what the current dollar amounts are. Again, um anything above $50,000 must come to council. The city manager currently has authority to sign contracts um and make purchases up to $50,000 provided they're budgeted. And then department heads have $5,000 authority and then staff would be up to $500. Now, some cities include their signature authority as part of their contracting rules and then others have a separate policy. Again, it's completely up to you um how you would like to structure that. So, um, continuing on our topic of signature authority, uh, again, typically the city manager is delegated authority under the rules, you know, to make contractor selections and awards. Um and and sometimes the rules themselves will address the signature authority of the city manager, but again it's it's also completely fine to have a separate um signature authority policy. I wanted to highlight that some cities have adopted sort of a hybrid approach. Um in that for example um the city manager may be authorized to conduct

certain procurements without council approval but other types of procurements will require council approval regardless of the value of the procurement or the underlying contract. And so there are a lot of options to explore um in that area. Um so again as I mentioned the uh North Plains rules were last updated in 2005. That is a while ago. Um, some of the potential benefits of considering updating the rules would be to of course align them with the current current procurement thresholds under state law, which would provide the city, you know, sort of a lot more flexibility in terms of, you know, sort of procurement types. Uh, you could go a lot higher in terms of doing intermediate procurements where you only have to get three quotes. Um, if you were to update your personal services rules, you could identify categories where it's permissible, you know, to make um, direct awards regardless of contract price. And I've included some examples there. Again, um, many cities will say, for example, auditors, IT support services, um, advertising agencies, software as a service providers. Those are areas where you can without competition. um directly award those contracts. And then um currently the city is following the AG rules for architects, engineers and construction related personal services which is a very specialized area. Um and the AG rules are overly complex in this area and it is possible um to streamline that and and we have helped um other cities adopt sort of more streamline rules in that area. So that would be another potential benefit.

So again, um this is sort of highlighting a little bit more what staff responsibility and department responsibilities are. Um you know versus what has to um come to council. Um violations of the rules do have consequences. Uh employees may be subject to you know disciplinary consequences for policy violations. So it is important to have you know rules in place that everyone is following. Um so this sort of gets to the part of my presentation where we do a little bit of a deeper dive into various procurement types. So I'm happy to take any questions about what we've covered so far before we move into this next section or we can just keep plowing ahead as well. Okay,

Weber, just a practical question. Uh, resolution 1250, uh, you said that's our guideline for how we do contracts. Is that resolution where all these numbers you're giving us, the 50,000 on down? Are those included in that resolution or where did they come from? Yes, they come from the resolution. Um, and then the the dollar amounts that I had um that are not highlighted in yellow would be the dollar amounts that are currently set under state law or the AG model rules which apply by default if you haven't address them in your rules.

So the the 50,000 like that number we use that's a default number or where does that come from? Oh, do the 50,000 for the city manager signature authority?

Yeah. Okay. So that does not come from state law. That is completely within your discretion. And there is a separate um financial policy. Um it's the financial poly policy that is part of your adopted bienium budget for 2025 2027 and that is where your signature authority is. And so um that is where the 50,000 is coming from. So there's no actual resolution that gives us that. It's in that finance document. Yes, exactly. That's the budget by resolution. So yes, there is.

So the resolution covers it through that. Okay. Thank you, Council Warrington. Just want to check in with you since you're online. Did you have any questions or comments so far? Uh thank you for checking in. Um yeah, I had the question too about all of that and in the 25 to 27 budget I guess covers not just the 50,000 but all of those it sounds like. So um it sounds like we have um outlined all of the items because they are all highlighted in yellow uh which is um a good thing but we probably need to review all of this and update it accordingly um as you're suggesting.

Yes. Um, so you know, you can always do dollar amounts that are less than what is allowed under state law. Um, state law is sort of the ceiling. Um, but this would be sort of what you know most other cities would be doing at this point um is just following the state law amounts. So, councelor Warrington here, these uh 25,000 on the personal services, would that be for like a bigger city like Portland? And because we don't have that kind of budget, right? So we would do one according to our budget. Would that be correct?

Yeah. And again, um, personal services is an area where you have the utmost flexibility and discretion. So a lot of cities, I would say mediumsiz to smaller cities are also doing $25,000 because they're for the most part following state law and they want um more flexibility again in terms of the procurement type. Um, so I would say not only big cities but medium-sized to small ones are also doing these dollar amounts. All right. Thank you,

Councier. Thank you for this presentation. Uh, I think I'll uh my question is similar to councelor Lington's. I'm really interested in following the EG guidance just to simplify things for the city and as long as it's appropriate for a city our size then I think that would be my recommendation too. Okay. Anybody else? Okay. Uh thank you. If you want to continue on we'll come back to uh at about 10 we'll come back to uh staff.

Okay. So um I wanted to give an overview of the different types of procurements. Um so goods and services. This is supplies, equipment, materials, property. Um you know uh I've listed some examples there. Uh services are things such as IT support services, landscaping services, janitorial work, but it's not personal services. So it's not professional services, it's not construction related services and design services which is sort of its own very special category and has its own rules. Um personal services again uh is is really any service that you designate as council under your rules as constituting personal services. you have a lot of discretion um in terms of the definition there and again you have a lot of discretion to create your own procedures in this area. Uh some examples again are like attorneys, audit services, IT services, um artists, performers, property managers. So similarly construction related services are for like architects and engineers. Um and that must follow an RFP process where you select um the most qualified consultant. Um it has to be a qualifications based selection where you consider price at sort of a later stage. Um and then finally it's public improvements which is construction and that has to be you know um pursuant to an ITB and must be awarded you know to the lowest bidder. um a few sort of uh exceptions um are soul source procurements, emergency procurements and special procurements

that I wanted to highlight. So soul source is where there's only one um provider or contractor available to provide a particular service. Um this should be a very rare um instance because typically there is more than one um you know provider or contractor uh where you know a city wants to make a direct award to uh a contractor for you know sort of a unique set of circumstances. that special procurement is usually um what is appropriate and that requires um specific findings that are required under state law to be approved by council. Um for uh goods and services uh again if it's more than $250,000 it should be um a competitive process where it's either low bid or an RFP. An intermediate procurement requires at least three um three solicited quotes where the city makes a written record of the efforts that were made. And if three quotes are not available, again you keep a record of um efforts that you made. And then small procurements is where you can award basically in any manner that you want to to a contractor that you select. Um and I think we have talked quite a bit about personal services. Um, for architects and engineers, there are uh different dollar amounts under state law. So, the small dollar amount is $100,000. Um, the three quote amount is $250 and then the formal is $250,000. uh it is a very specific and complicated

process under the AG rules where for the formal you do an RFQ and then you have to follow it with an RFP. Um so that is uh sort of a very specific process that has to be followed. And then for public improvement um it is always a low bid uh requirement unless uh an exemption uh is is approved through council. And then these are the um the dollar amounts for the various procurement types. So that concludes um my presentation but I'm available for questions. Any questions?

Go. No, not me down. All right. Okay. Well, I'm gonna ask you a question. Um you said that the AT rules are very complex on architecture and engineering. Can you give us just a super high level and then kind of a how would you recommend uh recommend the council um make it easier for staff I guess is what I'm saying. That makes sense.

It does make sense. And I have to admit this is not my area of expertise um on the construction and design professional side, but I believe um I'm just looking in an example. So the AJ rules are complicated in the sense that it they have this two-step process where you do you have to do an RFQ followed by an RFP. And I believe we have rules where you can skip um that step and just go directly to an RFP. Um and I believe that that is the more streamlined process that we provide. But I'm happy to um follow up in writing with you cuz again this particular area is not um is not my area of expertise. I some people have comments because I think you may have knowledge or no. I'm just trying to make sure we get any they're complex.

No, I mean what what what Yeah. I mean, what what is the thought? What is your input? Because if it's complex,

something that we're dealing with on a regular I don't know. I'm just trying to get more data. That's I want to understand more. I guess what I so my input on it Dustin will probably really get into it but um there is a higher level of risk to the city from failure of architect engineer flaw and an engineer and what they work on versus what an architect works on for a building. A bridge collapsing is a different thing from a building having a fire problem from a and so depending on the cont depending on the designer physical design type of design then you kind of get into a bunch of weeds on what the problems are Dustin or just a a road doesn't curve properly the speed limit and people go out the side so Dustin go that sense

I'll try to keep it pretty simple Um yeah, with with those typical professional services, there's a lot more risk involved, which is different than, let's say, me hiring a contractor to claim at the GOA, right? Um, under the current limits right now, I have to go through a lot more process for a smaller contract than I would um say for services. And it's none of these things are pretty cheap. I have to ask Bill for permission for a lot of things over $5,000 because that's pretty much everything. Yeah. So, excellent. Okay. I just want to understand why. It sounds like it's risk most of counselor porch.

Thank you, sir. I Yeah, I would support what mayor saying and anything we can do to make it simple for staff is a good thing. Um, I'm kind of interested in your hybrid approach. I think in terms of signature authority, some of the things that maybe the big picture I'm looking for is alignment between staff and council. So maybe some types of uh contracts you would always want uh the council to review and approve and understand versus as opposed to a straight signature authority. That makes sense.

It it does. Um and you know I think what what you could do is um identify certain categories of of procurements. for example, that that even though uh let's say under the dollar amounts the city manager can go ahead and conduct the procurement um perhaps you require that before the procurement is issued that that council must approve um the procurement or uh a final um award decision must be approved. So that's the way that I have seen um some jurisdictions approach it that there is sort of a a step required to approve the procurement um and then we would just work to identify what those areas might be where you would want that additional step followed.

Thank you. That sounds like a a great solution. And I think um you know just in concept from like a visit visibility standpoint if we had like a contract register so that the public could understand what sort of contracts are being signed I think that'd be helpful to include in the pulse.

Councelor Warrington here. Um, so as a followup to this, um, Erin, would you suggest then that we actually review resolution 1250 to see what's there and then work through it to update it accordingly? So, we have a starting point template for um, cities who want to update their rules and and who want to sort of update them pretty significantly. So, I would recommend um that uh I work with staff on sort of refining that template and tailoring it for North Plains. Um and then and then, you know, once there is a final draft, um then then it would be, you know, presented to you for feedback.

Uh council, you can work here. I I'm in full support of um Council Flora Deorg's um recommendation in terms of visibility and having a little bit more systematic approvals in here baked into the the next template proposal. Um I would also like to see perhaps maybe a little consistency between 1250 in terms of um the estimated uh contractor dollar like the dollar thresholds with the um signature authority that you've highlighted here. um on slide uh 12 of the meeting packet that I pulled yesterday. Um the other comment or question I actually have for you is there's a lot of information here that you gave us tonight. Um clearly resolution 1250 is grossly outdated and then we have other scraples and of information and bud budget files from last year etc etc. Um what are the top three changes that you saw that you would like to recommend to us to make? Um definitely the top would be to uh address and update personal services. um sort of your more generic personal services because this is an area where you have a lot of discretion again and and the dollar amounts there are so low in terms of what the cost of services are today that I believe the city would have more flexibility there and that flexibility is is is pretty important. Um, and I would say the goods and services is the second area because again the the dollar amounts um are are misaligned quite significantly with state law. So th those would really be the top two. And in the other area since you're silent, you're following the AG

rules by um default. So I think you know I think that's an okay place to be. Council me I want to say thank you so much for your presentation. Um I am in alignment with Aaron partnering city staff to um find a a medium of ground for what would be appropriate member to council. Um, I think just my only question for Aaron, um, would be I heard there was a mention earlier about, um, a list of of contracts and is that something you would typically see presented in other jurisdictions? And I I just asked because I'm thinking about staff and that's one more thing we're adding on to their plate um that could potentially, you know, be found through public records request. Um, so I'm just curious if other jurisdictions how that's so used to following um laying out all the contracts.

I have not seen that specific policy followed in other jurisdictions in terms of um maintaining a contract log. I have not. Okay. Thank you. And then just a followup question. Um this might be for for Bill, but is is that something that a member of the public could request if they were curious? I'm sorry, I missed the first part of your question. What was it that they could request? Oh, I was I'm so sorry. I was actually asking a city manager. Oh, sure. If that was something that um you know, someone could request if they were curious.

Um via public records request. There would be nothing secret about. They could request that information standard public record. Okay. Thank you. Um any other questions? So, I'll say that I concur with council about the working with uh having to attorney work with staff for updates. Um I'm concerned also about the list of contracts. Um, council previously has stated that public records requesting to follow the current process and since this will be a public records request, I would prefer to keep it that way because it's just adding more work and we certainly have enough of that going on. So, that's just my input. But with that, it seems like consensus is seems there for having the city attorney uh provide an updated you have a question.

Yeah. Um, mayor, uh, I I I understand the concern about a record for public visibility, but how do we bank into this process update to enhance or improve the visibility to council within contract thresholds and signature authority? That is something I think we might be looking at. Yeah, I see Anna's uh council.

Yeah. Uh thank you. Uh I believe that is council Hegodornne talking. Um I agree with that and I think maybe um if we just are able to look at one uh column at a time uh bring the personal services uh update to us, we can talk through that and then we talk through the goods and services and we talk Yeah. each one so we can see what all of this means and because 5,000 to 25,000 is a huge jump, right? So, uh, we all need to be cognizant of what that means, um, and have some input around that, I believe.

Um, yeah, that the 25,000 is a state guideline. That's why I understand where you're coming from. Um, however, 21 years out of date on our contracting language, that's why this something we need to address. Um so I give an example of that actually on the services side of things. Um so for the first time ever we sought assistance um we had to say assistance but we sought bids for the non-garlic festival annual event contract. Um the total budget for that at this point in the adopted budget for the NPDA NPDA has a long time been running those events non- girls festival. So the 11 different city things different events that happen with city sponsorship every year. Budget for those to manage those events is roughly 13 to$14,000 in the adopted budget for FY27. We asked um we had no idea who would who operates events that many for that type of budget is insured. Um we contacted and worked with um explor valley the local visitor bureau um and for $13,000 at that level of budget they couldn't find anyone who would even bother to bid on that level of a budget. Um, so all of that is to say that we are so far below what operators, potential good operators and vendors can do for us that moving things in a manner that kind of gives us a better ability to get good services for you all would be extremely helpful.

So that's more

councelor Weber, uh, I'm in agreement with everybody. this is a high priority to hear staff update the document. Just a practical thing for me would be to just have a clear place this uh all of these laws and guidelines. Where do they sit within the city um on the web page? Whatever. I was trying to Google it and just find the finance document. When I went to the city web page, I couldn't find the finance document. And the resolution of course was so old you couldn't look that up. So this would I think would also be a great chance to just decide where we land all this so it's easy to find the documents once we do them.

So that's a separate project that's I believe we are working on getting website update but that will be a separate project that wouldn't be a part of this but I hear what you're saying when when you get the update done but that's a typically separated okay conversation. Thank you. Um, so Bill, uh, the question was asked, uh, how does council access contracts? House because obviously we wouldn't presumably not do a public records request. How how would that or how's it go?

Yeah. Uh, mayor, no problem. So basically, you would just ask if if a counselor has wants to see a contract, um, I can provide that, but I would at the same time provide it to you all because council rules sort of thing. Um but that's basically all that was. So does that answer the question you that asked the counselor? Yes. My understanding is then all contracts that fall within the permissions and rules and guidelines discussed all our thresholds etc etc would then be um in our council packets just as an informed in the future. How do we have visibility to that? the you would ask bill for it

send a request for a new contract you want to look at it

right yeah the traditional the standard way would just be um asking for that would just a particular contract and I would email it all for you so the thing is is that the what's going I guess the the line here is city council oversight or the city management decision and practice and authority and I think what this also what this line communicates is that council has oversight over certain things directly very publicly, but anything under those dollar amounts, you're charging the city manager to handle it. And so any additional sharing of that information crosses that one. And so that's that's part of what that's about. We're always happy to share any um you know, if you if you if there's something that you want to see, we can share it with all of you. Um but beyond that there's also the issue of um you know some contracts we have with professional like personal services firms um they do have um you know there is there's sensitive information about how they do something their methodology or their model or their what have you. And so um in in certain circumstances with that we're a little more careful about how that gets distributed. um doesn't happen a ton, but it does. So, that's another just one example of how it can get complicated sometimes, but we can provide that to you and all of you at the same time. Um you know, if something comes up that you're interested, the better your understanding. So,

thanks. Okay. So, what I think I hear consensus on is we would like the attorney work with staff to bring us back in a day set. Yes, council me. Yes. which council warns does that work for you? Yes, that's great. Thank you.

And are we generally good with starting at all the state guidelines and then if there specific recommendations go from there? Is that what I heard here? Okay. Yeah. Counc. All right. So, um yeah. bill and and um sorry. Um Isim I said that right? Apologies. Um so he can work together on that um and kind of work out within the state guidelines but also kind of some recommendations where things should be different or should be less complex or more complex. I'm not sure where you put that but you know what I mean.

Um yes. And then recommended signature authorities uh at each level would be helpful. Um that would be great.

Just councelor Warrington here. Just I'm sorry, one quick question. The signature authority of whatever it is, is that per item, per day, per month? So can you spend $500 if that's your signature authority and then later on in the day do another 500? What what does that mean? The signature authority is it just per transaction?

Yes, it's typically per transaction. It could be per contract. It could be, you know, a purchase order if you're, you know, utilizing a purchase order. So, it is per transaction or contract. Yes. What I will do is clarify there's in my time here um there's never been a a contract for anything less than5ish thousand. Um the only time you run into kind of things like that is you go out for a piece of equipment for the water system that didn't have component X and and Z. Then you have to go out and spend another $500. That sort of thing. uh because it's expensive specialized equipment, but it's still kind of very low in the total cost amount. But as far as the contract goes, we don't um we try to write contracts uh put contracts together and find vendors that can do things kind of more holistically about cost doesn't work that one of the things u to also keep in consideration with uh some of the contracts for facilities making things sometimes there's a one year threeear agreement and then a one-year agreement would be a lot cheaper than a 5year agreement. And a fivey year agreement would push us well past that threshold. Um, and so that's one of the things I've been trying to work really hard is how can I get a one-year agreement so it's within my budget authority. Um, which makes it very complicated um, and a lot more time consuming. And so this would allow things for me to do what the landscape would contract to, you know, adjust that. Um, I've got a um a water um source contract that I'm working on that I pretty much have to tell be have a thousand budget otherwise it's going to have to go through the formal bid. That's kind of like it it really does

affect a lot of things in the public works is I have to keep things very very cheap and if I were to get have to do a formal bid for everything that would lengthen the process exponentially. A big example right now would be the roof for Jesse Mays under what we are looking at right now. I'm gonna have to go for a formal bid and it's going to take a very long refined process or have to get everything when I can just do a simple three bid process. So it's kind of like something that hits a little bit uh harder home right now. um that this helps us to be a little bit more expeditious um and would otherwise take a lot longer to get it the the current process.

Okay. So I think we have consensus. Let's move forward with that and um unless there's anything else we will until the council meeting. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Uh at 6:49 we will