Westminster Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Perfect. Okay. Uh we'll call the December 17th, 2025 meeting the order. First, I want to wish everybody a merry Christmas and happy holidays. Thank to the commission. Uh the first order of business, we have two meeting suffering. We have a the uh meeting summary for February 20th. Everybody had a chance to look at it. Yes. There are any questions? If so, we have a motion to accept.

Second. Motion's been made and seconded to accept the February 20th uh meeting summary minutes. There any questions? Hearing none. All in favor say I. Oppose. No. The eyes have it. The second item is a close session summary. I want to say with this I'll have to pass around a sheet that each of you will have to initial. If there's any questions, we'll figure it out. But um it's a little bit different the way they have to be done. So any u any questions about those those minutes? Okay. There a motion to approve? Make a motion to approve. Second.

A motion been made in and a second to approve the September 18th close session summary. All in favor say I. I. Oppos? No. The eyes have it.

Okay. The first item of business is the site development plan for 404 Malcolm B. Some of you may uh remember we have uh seen a site plan for for map medical center before. Previously you've seen one for a 40,000 square foot medical facility. Um it was going to have a garage or a parking deck underneath of the building and um that was done in 2000 I believe it was 202. So now we're back in support of you to talk about a new version of this plan. It is um applicant is now requesting approval to construct a 22,000 square foot medical center and also an additional building that's going to be 12,000 square foot um onsite. It's either going to be used as a daycare school facility or it will be used as a medical facility official

or office space. Okay, I'll just tell. Yeah.

So, just to kind of acclimate yourself, 140 M drive. This is the old armory space. And all of this is in um what you've been provided um which are on larger sheets in front of you, but just wanted to make sure that you could see um up here and anybody who might look at this in the future can see it up here, too. So, here's the two buildings. Um you there is an entrance off of 97 as well as 140 village road back here. Um this here is that 12,000 square foot building that's going to be uh either the office space or the daycare. Up front is that 22,000 foot medical facility. Kind of did a a little bit of a zoomed in version up here. I wanted to bring to light also the fact that this area here is designated to be the playground area for the daycare. So when someone is safe around here for the medical facility, they cannot go around the site like this. They will have to go around uh around the two buildings like that. So just wanted to kind of explain how the uh how the movement happens on site. Here we have the uh the final landscaping plan. Uh so you can see that also in your the in the larger plans that I gave you here. And I also wanted to talk for just a moment too um about the parking. Um so you can see here um and also once again to acclimate you here are some other the properties owns the medical facility here as well as one that's over here and being that they are so close to the other property. They were granted an administrative adjustment um for parking spaces on the southern side of the property line which are less than five feet. That's just a

requirement that we have as well. Um, so the adjoining property since it's owned by the same entity that was one that was allowed in the previous plan that was carried over to the approval of this plan as well. You're talking about 140 village road is where the 5t right here. It's actually the the parking that's along since it's so close to this property line to uh the code calls for 5T but it's there is no you can't be 5t from here. So the administrative adjustment was to allow for that happen and that's one of the reasons suggestification was that it's owned by the same property owner but that's already been approved that's not

correct. I was just letting you know that was just one of the important things that helped make this plan move forward was something that was carried over from the last plan that we saw. So here are the uh proposed elevations once again. Um, you do have

before you go to the elevations, can you go back to the the layout? Um, so with parking, I just wanted to clarify from reading through the staff report because the parking lot, they are not joined. You know what I mean? They're two separate parking lots. So is to just to confirm the calculation for the 12,000 square ft building based upon its use. The number of required parking spaces that it needs, is it on that side? Yeah. And well, and also I do believe that because it was you can get to one another here. But yes, they were meeting what they needed.

But were they meeting all because practically somebody maybe a couple of those little spots there by where I believe the dumpsters are, but otherwise you you know so that building the 12,000 foot building has the required parking on that side of the lot. Yes. Okay. That's one thing I wanted to clarify. And then the reason it's not passing through like you were talking about is because that's potentially going to be a playground area. Yeah.

But I noticed that and was a little bit concerned about, you know, the flow like you're kind of, you know, it's one property, but you kind of got two very distinct buildings and they parking lots really are not interconnecting at all. Yeah. So if the and if this becomes the um the daycare, it's part of their Maryland certification that they needed this the requirement for the playground outside. So this is where they have to

Yeah. No, but I'm assuming we're comfortable with that because the reality is you could do a smaller building there and have a playground and still have the parking go through and fencing. So you there's other ways to do that, but it sounded like staff did not have a lot of heartburn regarding the fact that that parking lot was not interconnected. And then my other question was the other site um is owned by the same ownership, right? On this side down here. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So I I noticed and I think I know the answer is related I think the grading but I just want to make sure that it that is not connecting at all and is that have to do with the grade that's going on there. Yeah, and that's that is the CLSI is here. They would be able to I know that they never planned on connecting the two and I thought it was for grades, but they can they can answer that and quickly we did even with the first time we had the site plan. We looked at that connection and I think we brought it up with this one as well if it was still if possible. But you're right, that's something we would strive to do is have that connection connectivity. Yeah.

Especially the same property owners sharing parking. Exactly. We cuz this site is sitting lower than the other site if I remember correct. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I have a question. So is there because they're the same property owner now it's not an issue. Will there be some kind of crossing because you have you're kind of right on the property line. Oh the entrance that's coming in off of 140. I believe that be the intent. Yes. Sometime eas between properties to allow access because you're actually coming in on the other property. So you have access off of 97 Malcomm drive. Yes. In and out were both in and out. Yeah. In and out. Right. Right out.

And then the access of 140 village. The only thing I wasn't in love with is that you don't if someone goes into this part, you know, the the part that's already filled, you can't really get to that part. But if it's a grade issue, it is what it is, you know. But if they did have a grade issue, I would want that to Okay, we ready. Any other questions as far as the site is built? Yes. So, here are the proposed elevations from 140 village.

And like I said, um they're in your stats report as well. These are the views from 97. And here is an aerial view. So here is the 22,000 square foot building. Here is the 12,000. And here is the neighboring property.

So I know there's a lot of words on here, but I'm just going to say that uh we really have two outstanding issues. Uh number one, uh so as we were doing this for landscaping, we do believe that it needs landscaping. However, the city's calculations and then calculations were just different on what um for landscaping and what sending units were what what requirement. So, we were requesting that a colored just a color coded as to what what landscaping planning unit met what requirement. That's one of the things we were requesting. And the other thing is that we were the commission is being asked to review the redesign of the building. And so um they're proposing a pre-cast concrete building with a linear stone inserts and that we look at the design preference manual which talks more about the stone, the wood, the brick, um different types of masonry. And so we're requesting that the applicant at a minimum use some stone into their design. Um and so we do have um so just as a reminder to you, this is what was previously reviewed by the planning commission. Um, at the time that we saw this one, some of um, comments that we've heard that we had talked about working with the applicant was that we were going to have this uh, this feature uh, stand up a little bit taller and, you know, could be more of a prominent feature and some stone. This was stone along the bottom. So, it was going to kind of incorporate all of those things. Had it hitting both nail, you know, two bird stone, if you will. the making the height differential on the roof as well as the stone facade for uh these planning commitments, but we never got to that point with working with the applicant because the project went to a different direction instead of doing this. So, we never got new plans. So, I wanted to just point out the fact that when it was this, the planning commission had, you know, some some

issues and they wanted it to be a little bit to make it more like the design preference manual and to meet those aspects.

Andrea, if you go back to the elevations that were submitted, I will tell you, I'm a little bit confused too because what I see there is different than what's on this plan. It sort of has a red do you see what I mean? Um, so to this is a pretty important piece as far as development. I truly understand that they're going a different direction of all that. I would like to see more on the elevations than what we're getting right now, but it's not entirely clear to me. Number one, I I think the entrance features, you know, the roof could be a little bit higher, just a little bit more differentiation. Um, additionally, you know, I'm not 100% clear when I was trying to review it what is what as far as the different colors and what's being what's being designed. And overall, it appeared that it was just a it's a struck me as being very modern. Do you know what I mean? And not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't know that it kind of fits in with the other stuff that's around it as much. Um, so I personally feel like the elevations need a little bit of work. Um, I don't know what was that.

Well, that that is what uh well, so if you hold on to that thought for just one moment, um, we took we added some pictures once again. And this is what everybody previously looked at and had the comments, but we also brought, you know, what was um other nearby medical facilities. These are the ones that are next door. This is the one that's literally right next door. is the one that shares the essential and this one this is now um

so but they're just showing that even though um brick is prominent and like this is kind of we look at it as kind of like a medical complex if you will because it's the uh for it's like 40410 and 412 are all kind of on a they're right next to each other. So that's how we were viewing it. It's kind more like the complex to make it a more of a cohesive um build look that's going on there. And um sorry, but yeah, I just want to make sure we didn't have any except doesn't look like that. It does not now look painted white.

Well, it also I I noticed driving by the other day that it's like I don't know if someone used the same cane of can of paint on the whole thing, if you know what I mean. It's like slight variations. I don't know if you noticed that, but it's kind of Yeah.

So, but that's that's kind of what we're here to talk about as to what the the planning commission and the thoughts are. And it's as far as it goes for what, you know, the different colors that are on the mirror. The applicant can help explain, talk about more about what the materials are, talk about what their thoughts are and why they cho, you know, what they why they chose this look versus maybe something with the brick and everything. Um we were hoping that we could come to some sort of compromise and that the planning commission would be okay with staff working with the applicant. Um trying to do perhaps some more stone maybe a little bit of not it doesn't have to be all of brick but having to you know bring in brick aspects throughout. Um, and also that we could work together on that and then maybe bring it back planning commission or

just so so you mean when you say so brick you're talking about working in something like that 410 Malcolm drive. I I'd say I agree. I'd say 410 is is what we would want to see. It doesn't all have to be brick. I'm not saying repeat what you see, but I think the brick base, brick elements around the entrances to highlight those and then obviously other material could be above that brick, but we want to bring I I'm not sure stone is more is appropriate. We're trying to maintain this. I don't think stone really fits either. Yeah, I think this doesn't really fit either. Yeah,

I think it's I think it's um something that should look uh similar to the uh 410 as far as appearance. I think this is just not really in keeping with that.

One of the other things in your staff report, it does talk about um the signage that's I'd like the monument sign. So, whatever is decided to for the main look of the building, it would go, you know, the monument sign would follow. So it just we didn't really feel that it was necessary to put that in a recommendation. It's kind of all um we do have members from the the applicant properties here and I know that they wanted to spoon too.

So just these are my the recommendations of primary community planning and development recommends that the commission consider conditional approval of this plan. number one to to provide us with that colored photos landscaping plan amendment the side of the medical building to be more in compliance with the design preference manual and however the commission would like that to happen whether or not it's working staff or working with staff and then coming back before this commission and then to address all the remaining working it can be as you know however you decide if you'd like to you know

that if we did something like that that we could still do conditional approval. Would that be the one of the conditions? So, um uh as far as any county involvement with this, uh they've gotten all their approvals from from the county. The last one that we were waiting on was approval onto 140 village road an access approval. And so they paid that nice took some time. You remember I asked a question at the time there was some stupid question.

Well they resolved it with the first plan that came through and they revised it. You would have thought with it as if it would be copable but apparently it wasn't. So it took a lot more time than was anticipated. Um and then also the entrance shifting that we see now. So it took a little bit longer for review of site distance and sight lines which I think this site this entrance is a better location for site distance than than the than the other entrance that we was previously approved because the other entrance was a different location already approved. This is the one that kind of when you're out you get a better view of both way both to the right and the left previously it was more parallel and remember the trees are blocking a safer

I think for a better access point a lot of traffic on that road not much now the shoppers closed but you wouldn't be the doctor's office right there you'd be surprised how many cars drive on that street and some will go where shoppers so absolutely okay is that y that Who's who's running? Okay, I'll start. My name is Brian.

Good evening. Thank you everybody for taking the time to work with us. Um, this has been a extremely extremely difficult project for us. We bought the site um at an auction. It was the old Armory building which was an eyesore and that's been taken down. When did you buy it? Just out of curiosity. back in 2021. 2021 is when we purchased. So, we've been sitting on this land for five almost 5 years now. Gotcha.

We went through the 2 and 1/2 year approval process first time. And during that 2 and 1/2 years, interest rates have doubled and construction pricing went up 45%. Which is why we can't build the building that was originally designed. just there's nobody that would pay taxes that would require to support that building the first time. Just correct me if I'm wrong. The building the first time was going to be 40,000 square feet all medical. Is that correct? All medical, multi-story, multi-story with elevators, stairwells, and additional features that were starting to drive the cost up.

Got so responding to the market is what we've had to do. We have looked at a number of scenarios. Andrea Mar extremely helpful gone through a lot of different ideas and concepts. Uh there is a daycare user who's very interested in the back building and we think that we are just about there with them. That would be enough to at least get a bank to loan the money to allow us to start the remainder of the project. But the site plan that you saw, we've learned a lot from CLSI. And in our opinion, the impervious area changed by a nominal amount, but it required us to go back through a process that was started initially submitted back in April of this year. And we're just now getting here to this point where we have this conversation. Meanwhile, we've been carrying the land, paying the real estate taxes, and we had to annex into the city in order to gain the rights to the water, which is I agreed to do it. That city tax bill adds it makes our operating expenses to this building over $3 a square foot for real estate taxes, which puts us at a competitive disadvantage already. So, we are trying to make this work. We are trying to get something developed there. And a lot of what you see here has been a response to the marketplace. Um you mentioned the 412 Malcolm Drive building. Uh a lot of feedback we were getting on these buildings is with the brick. Um they were starting to look dated and in order to command the rents that we needed to, we did end up painting that building. Truth be told, there's

Well, you own the building out front as well. Yes, we don't. Okay.

And a lot of medical campuses are going to a more to a different look. I know Lifebridge and some of their other facilities have already changed out the brick for different facades and if you have at 140 and 97 there's a relatively new small retail building where T-Mobile lives and the architecture there is probably very similar to what we're proposing. Um the computer renderings have come a long way but we are looking at a product called formliner which is an insert that you can put into the concrete. This can give it a stone look and can give a lot of different architectural features. Uh we tried to keep the parapit walls which provide a variation in the roof heights that you would mention. We're happy to make them a little bit taller. That's not a problem. We want to cooperate want to work but in order to get in and command the rents that we need to in order to finally get this project developed. We need to respond to the marketplace and do and provide what people are looking for in a new building. So, you're telling me that the market that um because the building in between the one out front you paint it.

Okay. And we're probably going to paint the second one, too. Oh, you're probably going to paint the second. Okay. Um because your feedback is that people are looking for a more modern

Yes. It's been the trend for the last 10 years that a lot of brick buildings are getting painted different shades and different color schemes. and we've seen it all over town. We talk to brokers when we talk to medical brokers. It's it's all a matter of preference. I was initially against it, but I, you know, I always say that we don't do pretty and we want to respond and we want to do something that's attractive. We want to do something that we're all proud of, but we also don't want to build something that people don't want to rent because that doesn't do us any good either. It doesn't, frankly, doesn't do the city any good well.

So, we we do want to work with staff. We want to make sure it's something that we're all happy with. Um, brick is, you know, our company's roots are in brick warehouse buildings. Brick has been part of a majority of the buildings that have been done for 40 years. It has started to phase out. Design preference manual mentions brick or stone or other materials. stone and I know that somebody had mentioned that they're not in favor of stone stone insert stone formliner that's something that we would absolutely look at um color schemes we would look at we want to be cooperative but we desperately need to get started this project we've been carrying it for almost 5 years we have millions invested into it at this point to which we haven't collected anything in return for and we've lost 10 we've lost at least two tenants based deal because we haven't been able to commit to a per delivery date because of how long it's taken us to get a permit. So, we will work to cooperate. We will help, but we need to cooperate. So, we want to get started. Want to make sure it's something that it's attractive and that everybody is proud of.

I'm going to say one thing as far as timing. Some of that's on you because you changed your plan. So, I don't want to make it seem like the city's been holding you off. I mean, street there. I That's not a good conversation. I mean, that's not I'm not talking it is we're holding you off. I don't really think that's true. The process anywhere in Maryland has been over two years to get a Well, if you submit a plan and then pull it and start over, then we have that's a decision you make, not us.

Again, it took us two and a half years to get permit. first time we had the permanent invoice on the desk and all the tenants pulled out and we could no longer afford to do what we're doing forcing us to do this. Believe me, going back to the drawing board, throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of plants, the absolute last thing to do. And I'm not assigning blame. It's the process is the process and those are the rules. So, it is what it is. I'm just state that matter back in the time that it took to get the permit the first time interest rates doubled construction pricing went up 45%. So a lot changed during that time frame. How much did you pay for that property? 3.125 million

for the armory property.

Okay. So we have we have a sizable investment already and we have spent hundreds of thousands in engineering in this area of real estate taxes. So, we are committed to this property. We want to get it started. We want to work with the uh staff on the on the architecture to make sure it's something we can both live with, but most importantly, we want to get started and and we can work out on that. I mean, there's with conditional approval. Um there's certainly things we can help out with grading permits and other elements. So, they as we're working on architectural elevations, so at least they can start making some site work. um because we're not changing we're not asking any changes to you know parking lot locations access to the property. So there's certainly things we can help out the applicant as progressing maybe meet up some help out some of that as we're doing the architectural

I hear you Mr. But I I do, you know, think, you know, there are legitimate concerns regarding the elevation and I think that, you know, we could certainly talk about that again next month. But there needs to be some work there. And I think that the planning commission wants to see those elevations back here.

You know what I mean? Conceptually, the layout of the of what is being shown here as far as the new site plan itself, I I don't know that anyone has a major objection to how that is laid out. Um, but I'd like more I would like to have a better feel for the elevations and how that's going to tie into the overall campus cuz I did not realize that they own the whole

a whole swap. You know, they've obviously painted the front building. You know, it if they're planning on painting the other building, you know, how does that blend everything in? because that kind of changes the you know I think some of the concern that we had here is based off the building that's next door. Well, if they're planning to do some sort of stylistic change to that building then you know conceptually what they're proposing here might fit in better though. But it's not really abundantly clear to me by looking at what's been submitted. What is stone? What is pre-cast? What is what? And even when I look at this drawing compared with the submitic plans, you know, I'm not sure, you know, it has, you know, this one has red on it. So, I'm not sure like which one am I looking at. So, you know, I think we need a little bit more clarity here before we approve elevations.

Absolutely. Like, and tonight we're requesting conditional approval and one of those conditions is to come back and get final elevations. So that's where we really control building ordinance and other things that we wouldn't issue until elevations are finally approved in sight by side. What just understand with conditional approval then they could start their grading and site work and wait to get the final building approvals before the building permits. Yeah, we we've worked with other applicants because again they're not really developing out the building yet. We're not preventing building permits or anything else. Just allowing them to maybe get on site

to start working the site because there's a lot of storm water management that has to happen and that's already been approved. That's in ground work. Um working on entrance and everything else. So again, we've done those things, but ultimately at the end of the day, um we wouldn't we wouldn't allow any building permits to be processed or approved by the city until elevations were approved in the final site plan. So Mr. What you're suggesting is that you would allow site work to happen, but no building permits to be issued.

Exactly. They they get a grading permit for the site work only and we can work with and we've done that before to help out applicants as we're with conditional approvals because they've then been to planning commission obtain some level of approval while we've worked on some other aspects that would have to come back to planning commission or staff would have to do final approvals. Because the expectation then next month or the next meeting. I really expect to see it at the back next meeting. That would be my hope a recommendation that this is meets the test. Absolutely. That would be my hope that we start working with the applicant immediately on trying to work. I'm just saying I mean I guess from the standpoint if that was quick that's one thing but if it drags out that's awful risky to be out there starting work and not Yeah.

being able to follow through and it's one of their risk. Absolutely. You think there's a risk, but again, it's also incentive since they're sinking more money into the property to get things in compliance. I just hope there's operational vote in we're going to have $500 a foot into this place by the time it's all said and done. And I think that if you own it, we want to work with the city and the planning council and we absolutely will. But I hope there's give and take both ways on the architecture. Where do you guys stand with your finals for everything else? Like I know that you have obviously you have concept approval for but are you also at all finals?

We don't have all finals yet is the big last final one. Yeah. Okay. So as in addition to us, you know, this is not the last like if you guys said everything is great. We love the architecture. There's still can't shovel in the ground. Like so I just I just want to make that clear too that we shouldn't expect tomorrow to see like and they're also working through things which if if we need more time that's all I'm saying than just the you know the one month they're also working on a bunch of other things as well simultaneously that was all I just wanted

well you know the one thing I'll say is you know your buildings really do have stable tenants and that building next there where John Hopkins is and u the urologist those guys have been there forever. So, whatever you're doing, you do a good job as far as your tenants go. Even the building there on the corner. I don't like the white, but at the same time, uh, MedStar has been there a long time. So, you have some really good strong tenants. If you have those kind of tenants going this new building, they'll probably be there for quite a while.

And that's the hope. And it's all matter of preference. And of course, I learned a long time ago that whatever I think looks good absolutely does not matter. But feedback is the one that they like. I just don't like and whatever it's worth, the tenants who are in there actually love the white. We've got it. So again, I'm not here to argue, but it's whoever pays the closest. It's true. So relate to the the daycare. You think that's a highly likely use for that? Yes. uh 12,000 square foot building. Um how much of an area is that going to take up the whole building itself?

Whole whole back building. And that's kind of why it's designed that way. We actually went as far as if you look at the site plan where the playground is, our storm water management allows that to be asphalt so that if you ever did have to convert it in the future, storm water management is already there for the additional parking that would be required. And you had asked the question before, I didn't want to interrupt. We asked the parking for the daycare is on the village road side of the property 97 as its own. So they both said well it was two separate units. It was actually important to the daycare as well. They didn't want their groups. Sure. Going back and forth.

Yeah. Um so it's 12,000 foot daycare and obviously you've already had discussions with a potential tenant and they feel like there's enough of demand in this area for additional demand. That's great. Thank you. That's the last thing you have to worry about. How many kids do you think they'll serve with 165? Take care of spring good. Great. Have any more comments?

No. Like I said, I think definitely should get additional space on the lady started get things done. Do you have a clear enough direction from us as far as some of the elevation concerns and and kind of get to and I do think it's important if their intention with a red brick building is to do something different

in the long run. I think that's important as it relates to this new building because the building out front is white and I totally not disagree with you but I I understand why you painted it to just kind of give it a little bit more of a modern look. I I can understand that. Um but I think it's important that we kind of understand how because really it's all kind of even though it's different properties kind of feels like one campus. Yeah.

And how that's going to interplay. Not that that new building has to match the architecture of the middle building, which I'll call the middle building of the one-story building, but I think they should play with each other, so to speak. Um, and and so hopefully you can work with the applicant and can bring something back. I know also at times you have emailed us to kind of get some feedback if you need to do in between step um because you know I am sensitive to their concerns regarding timing. It's never fun

to carry stuff. Um, so if there's a way that you know we need to do some in between I know you've done that before with us just to kind of get a gauge of reaction that's sort of come to standard practice once we get something that we believe is going that direction we would send it out to get individual feedback from the planning commission members the intent to bring it back in Jan that would be the hope yes so in the meantime everybody has to work together to meet that objective yes okay

because I don't want to end up in a position where they come back and then we're talking about, you know, the elevations all over again and then have to come back another month and all that. I'd like to guess kind of get that in between partic number two men the facade of the medical films to be more in compliance with the manual. Do you think that is um specific enough to enforce?

Well, I think we're going to change that to bring it back elsewhere approval perspective specific about what type of material and elements you provide. Okay. I was just concerned that it doesn't say what provisions in the manual are but it's understood. Yes. Yeah. There's there's specific section about commercial development redevelopment. Um the entire preference range residential obviously that wouldn't be play here but yeah great thanks. All familiar with you all comfortable with conditional approval.

Okay. So I'm going to make a motion for the conditional approval of code site development plan S25006 M drive medical center with the following conditions of approval. um the ones that are up on the screen that we see right there though with the second one the men of the facad of the medical office building all the buildings both buildings because there's two buildings there to be more in compliance with the design preference manual and to work with staff towards that goal but I do want those I want to be clear I want that to come back to planning commission for final approval of the elevations um it's kind of a long-winded motion and I think you get the gist of what the condition that they're looking at. Yes. Um,

hey, is this with respect to number two? This number two. The other two, I'm fine with how they're worded up on the screen. Okay. But in reference to number two, as an addition, I want them to work with staff and then bring it back to a future meeting for our approval of updated elevations based off of some of the comments that we've had here tonight. Okay. Uh motion's been made. Is there a second? Second. Any questions or clarification by the commission members? All in favor say I. I.

I. was no. Okay, let's get it back next month. Thank you very much. Yeah, so the entry of this property, you know, was an arm and then this property was going to come to the county to be the site for the veterans independence project. That's correct.

And changed a little bit and they they wouldn't they wouldn't allow that use. Still available for leis. And so then they said offers on and these guys got paid 3 point something. I do think the daycare um is an interest um and I'm no word that has a separate identity from the other building the way it's in the back kind of I mean it's like two sides into one the way it's set up but you know you're right about one thing I'm sitting here looking at the facade and I swear to God it could be mobile and that if some bedding place over there looks exactly like it.

The daycare might also with some of the tenants um because I do think that in today's world there are certain tenants that the fact that there's a daycare close by is very and that CCT plaza is perfect. It already has. It already is as far as submitted to the city. They say that well the record of the planning commission. Yes. Y it's already in the planning commission. Yes. That's one of the Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So, next is the uh signed permit for the town county board of elections. Uh this is a let's see they're relocating from South Center Street to another location. Yeah. 1135. So um the applicant is requesting a sign application for approval of 72.75 square ft of signage. Um anything greater than the 64 square feet needs to come before the planning commission. We can't do that initiative. So this is a little sound pipe. Here is uh Business Parkway South. This is where the building Yeah. I'm sorry. What is Little Pike?

Right here. Right here is Littletown Pike. This is uh Business Parkway South. This is 11:35. Business Parkway South. So, this is this is where the the business is of business, I'm sorry, the board of elections. Um so, you have received certain things in your packet. You have the whole um application that also I apologize. This is what um is going to be um along Route 97 which is up here. They also have a small sign over their front door which is um uh in your past apologize. So they're no longer to be at Wong Sun district. This is this is their new location. So that'll be prominently be able to be seen from 97. Yes.

Okay. So uh like I said, the staff only has the ability to administratively approve signs that are up to 64 square feet. This is 72.75 square feet. So that is why we are here today to ask for a couple. What about the other? It's you only need us for the sign. You don't need us. No, it's for everything. All of their signage is with it equals the 72.75. So it's it's everything not just so it's a sign too. Yeah. So you're just

like to make a motion planning and zoning commission to sign permit application number 20002 allow building mounted sign of 72.75 square ft 1135 business parkway staff request Mr. M. Okay. Motion been made and seconded to approve the sign permit for the board of elections. Is there a second for that motion? Second. All in favor say I. I no proof access would come up at the intersection. There's no direct access. There's no direct accessibility along 97.

Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Item is the recommendation uh from the mayor and council for Wakefield Valley Development Plan amendment we feed 2401 parcel W and parcel X.

Uh Mr. Chair, uh before we move forward with this, I found a a typo, I guess we should say. So I'd like to make a motion to correct that so that we can approve the corrected version. So on page H under findings on B under B it says other uses have been proposed for property that have not been acceptable and then been approved. I want to strike then approved from the document so that it reads other uses that have been proposed for the property that have not proven acceptable this period. Uh so Mr. Chair, I'd like to make that motion for that model that amended.

A motion been made and seconded to amend the recommendation to the mayor and council as outlined. Are there any questions to that amendment? All in favor say I.

I no. The eyes have that amendment is is is approved. Now you have the the overall recommendation to approve. Um I I went through this thoroughly the current here last week earlier this week and to make sure that it met all the the things that we discussed here last month. This kind of summarizes that discussion we had last month and I think we found generally that there really wasn't any really opposition to the 35 laws that maybe in the past there was but that that's really kind of like um this would acceptable to the community. I think there's um there's a lot of benefits to the city uh for this plan, visibly some of the other ones as far as um repairing some of the trails and things that exist. the way that they've been allowed to kind of move the site back away from the Wakefield Valley that was been fixed up and um the fact that the flexibility in the open space uh over by Carolton Village is such that if it comes to the city that's great. I don't think the village has any real objection to it either way. If it ends up with the city, I think they're happy. Um, so I think the city getting it is probably the best alternative for everybody so long as the village is satisfied with access, but um, the lots are they're definitely I don't want to say they're larger, but they're certainly compatible with the rest of Wakefield. And I think we uh we went through this pretty pretty strongly as far as the um

having all the trails and things interconnected have the ability for people to to walk through these trails to get to the the I guess what the old golf court pass some of the old golf court trails. So u Mr. Huff you have any comment?

Um I I agree with you. Uh, you know, there's been a lot of history regarding this piece and a lot of different proposals over the years. Um, and eventually something's going to happen with this property. Um, and I think what we had on the T, what's being proposed now with the 35 lots and the the design um, and the benefits uh, that's going to have to with the additional parkland and um, you know, the fact that the trails are going to be improved, I think brings a lot of benefit um, overall to the community. And I think it's a when you look at the total history of that property and all the different things that have been proposed over the years, I think this is a really good layout and a good compromise with where we ended up.

I think one of the things about the the golf course property, there was a lot of trepidation in the beginning when the golf course stopped about what was going to happen. And I think people now have settled into accepting the fact this is going to be a park plant owned by the city. Yes. That's really comforting to people, believe me. But I can't say in the past that was the case. And I think that was some of the some of the dilemma before as to why so many people were kind of against anything happen.

Well, and I think the community can now see between the renovation of the clubhouse and the German house and and all of that, there's a commitment to that park. So, it's kind of obvious that it's going to stay what it, you know, what it is. and and you know, we have uh the city is going to be doing upgrades to the trails that are all on the existing park themselves. We're in the process of doing the engineering for that now. So, um this is timely because it helps tie all that together. Um so, yeah, I'm I'm excited for this to kind of get to the next level.

Yeah, this is the last next to last piece. There's only one more piece of Wakefield be developed. And um we did talk about this. This is just kind of a historical thing about this being the only plan that was approved, development plan approved before 79. Actually, Middlebrook was 74 to 77, but this is there's very few, maybe only two, maybe three. So, this is kind of like a a unique situation where you have a property that has zoning, but in the way the the uh the ordinance is set up, you're not looking through it through the lens of zoning. They're looking for the overall compatibility with the community and I think this is really really fits in well. I think it's been designed well and if it has the type of housing that that Richard Press has talked about, I think it's going to be a amazing place. So any any other comments by anybody?

I thought it was a well done report. Yeah. summarize the 15 years of process. It's hard to believe it's been almost 50 years since my age. So, we need to make a motion to move. Yes. So, is there a motion to approve the amended uh profile development plan report to the mayor's council? I for the development.

Well, so your recommendation is the planning and zoning commission approve the the um amended uh recommendation to the mayor council. Is that your motion? Yes. Okay. The motion been made. Is there a second to that motion? Second. It was from second to approve the advantage development plan sub council. Any questions? Further questions. All in favor say I. If no. I have.

Mr. Chair, can I just make um one comment uh to staff? It I don't know when this is coming to the mayor comment council. Do you have a sense of that, Mr. Chup? We do not. Okay. I would imagine sometime in January, February. Am I right about that? January, early February. Advertise.

Yeah. Oh, you have to advertise it when Okay. So, we need to coordinate that. Um, can you please let u our chair know because I think it might be beneficial, you know, for because the planning commission has done a lot of work here. Um, now obviously I'm on council and I can speak to that to a certain point, but I I think it'd be good for for it's possible if our chair could make it to kind of speak on behalf of planning commission and all the work that went into the plan that the mayor and public health are going to be seeing in front of them and yeah, thank you.

We're talking about here and I just figured this out 50 years ago right now. I just finished my finals for my first semester at Talson. That's what that means. That's a long time. Wow. Okay, let's see. What's that? I had a 3.75 average. The next is the Willows work session on Zap amendment CMA 4401. No, this is going to be March April.

So, as you recall, um this was before the mayor planning zoning commission um which they have accepted um layout the layout. So, just to orient you, this is you have Pennsylvania Avenue and Sullivan Avenue. And this is I I believe it's nine parcels that make up this area that had to alter be consolidated. It's also some right of way that needs to be confirmed that it's it is the property of the applicant there to demonstrate that some quick claim of some elements property. What are we talking about?

So you have so um it's this property here but there's some there's a rightway that was here as well as here and here. So this was there was original kind of conceptual plan for developing this area. you can see like the grid pattern happening. So there are some areas that are paper streets essentially never never officially dedicated to the city. But Mr. While you're up can you point because it's been a while since we've seen this plan because it's been floating around for a while. Can you point where the houses are fronting which way? So, so, uh, the planning and zoning commission accepted option three with this larger, um, open space central located. All the buildings are facing the open space.

Gotcha. Front of the buildings face the open space. The rear of the building space outwardly to the residential development and 140. So, 140 is going to see the back of those buildings and then some of the neighbors are going to see the back of those buildings. everywhere. These are going to be these are tall buildings are going to be up high. When you're driving on um Sullivan and Headspan, you're going to notice these buildings. Will you be able to you're going to be able to see them from 97.

Yeah, you're going to these are one maybe two mostly one story twotory uh houses here. So, these are going to be these are fourstory buildings. they're going to be seen um around uh and it's it's comparable because across the way you have the college is on this side which has comparable height on the other side of Pennsylvania Avenue. Yeah.

So the the the paper streets and you'll just go through the theoretically a street closing process. I would think if they've never been dedicated to the city, they could probably do a quick claim back to the original order and they'd have to demonstrate in some fashion that they have rights or ownership to those right away rights of work. I just uh I just say I uh look at the uh street closing process because there is a special procedure in code that deals with that and uh it may make it a lot easier to do what you have to do.

Okay. You said that set it sets up like an appointed body to look at it, come back with recommendations to the bar council to say we close these and they can be to wherever you need to. Okay, we'll look into that. Might make it easy. Thank you.

Okay, so again we've accepted the layout the option three. The only outstanding um concern now is architecture. Uh we brought back some uh designs to Marana Council. Uh initially the thought was to look at multiple different actual asbuilts as Mr. Poss pointed out at one of the meetings that there are several examples out there and that's what the applicant is now providing an array of different existing uh products similar to what we did with 222 ecreen where we looked at multiple uh product types and we looked at those to bits and pieces what you liked what you don't like. So that that's that's what we're trying to do tonight. got to get a feel from the planning commission what they like out of these products to get better guidance to the applicants in the hopes to return recommendations that the planning zoning commission could ultimate.

Do you have that up on the screen? So we'll go we'll go through we'll go through those. We have each option like each page has its own slide. So So yeah. So opt So I think there's 14 options

17 options. So, I'm going to be blunt that I have I have reactions when I see these pretty quickly and for the sake of time. Um, you know, and please interject everybody else. Option one, as far as the front and side elevations, I feel like those are on the right track of things that could work. I'm not in love with the back elevation. I think it's kind of too plain jane. Um but I option one is appealable and maybe we quickly go through some of these options and then come back. Um you know I I

yeah I was going to just say generally some of these options would be great downtown but I think for this site I think you're right. Some of these just don't fit this site. They might fit street but they really fit. You know what I'm saying? That one I think I think is okay for the site. You know what I mean? That's my kind. And that's and so some of the elevations they provided is similar to this. I think that this offers a little bit more brick and a little softer tones than maybe we've seen some of the elevations they provided. It has some interesting and this works. So you can get up a little bit more.

The access a little bit different how it's set up. Well, and also like you have like these bumpouts like you know there's some stuff going on. It's not it's not flat. It's not flat. It has some a little bit of pizzazz to it. Um even this you know this kind of bumps out a little bit. It has some pizzazz to it for two over twos. um you know, and that's why I just I'm not in love with the back. But as far as these two photos, if the applicant submitted something that was kind of in this ballpark, um from a aesthetic standpoint, I would find that attractive.

And this this provides for the flat roof. And again, we're the concern with trying to get the flat roof is to minimize to minimize the height because this is a four-story building. I agree. Um the as we pointed out the um the entrances are different. Instead of walking into a restaurant, you love the entrance towards the right. These are personal entrances. It just provides more of a street friendly design. So you will have happier tenants too because tenants having a shared access point is I I think individual doors like that is great.

Yeah. And then staffs always push the rear elevations. This this is more of an alleyway. You can see other buildings here. So these are two rear buildings facing each other with street parking and everything else. This site, the uniqueness of it is that the visibility of the rear is the most visible elevation of this project to the community. Um the fronts are facing internally into the green and to the individual to the people that live there. that what we're going to see is going to be this. So you're suggesting some of the elements to the front would have some similar elements to the rear. Yeah. And carry

Well, there might be other pictures in here. That's why option

if it's so a lot of these are in here. They're not two or two products. We were told to bring a multitude of different architectural so you could talk about features. Option one was the the option that uh you had actually given us the last time we were here. We just didn't know where it was built. We hunted it down and we found out where it was built and we were able to. So that was that picture you sent us away with. So that's why that's option one. We're comfortable with that. Um I think there's some things we can do on the back to pull elements from the front. I mean we can't do much about the fact that it is a rear. You've got the garages and you've got the decks, but but there's certainly things we can do.

There might be photos along the way as I as I think what would be helpful is kind of quickly go through and gauge some of the other ones are more elements. If you see a particular element that you like, then that we have our architect here this evening and gives her some direction before she option to quickly buy a option two. Very unique, very different, higher elevations, higher height. That's what you're trying to not not go with. Um I think this is a perfect I think this was just mentioned by the chair. This would be good on a main street where you have walkability and access. It's

but down where the uh used car lot is beside the condo we approved. It would fit on that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel Yes. I feel like I I for this property, I don't feel like that works as well as the f option one that we looked at. Um, but for other places downtown, something in that ballpark could be interesting, though. I think it's slightly a little bit too modern for me. That's just me personally. I kind of kind of likes the rear view of the option, too, though, with the the decks like the bump out with roof over them. elements

to the back that that alone that would break up. That'll break up back. Well, there's another one I saw. You wouldn't have the garages in the front either. That's points out here. But again, they had an element that he picks up on and that's what we were open with the other. Yeah, there was another little bit. Yes, that's what I said. I actually thought number four was kind of so I'm not sure this you have some rooftop options in this. That's what they're similar to the very first one that and we're trying not to additional height on the roof.

Here you have you have the same situation we saw in option one. These buildings are close to each other. This is just an alleyway. It's only serving the people that in the alleyway, but you can see that they're carrying a brick. you know, bump out of I think that's the most important thing. You have all these elements that are carrying all the way through. Even though this is the back alleyway, still maintaining a lot of those elements, a lot of features since the front has a bump outs and change of elevation.

That's the most important thing is it just doesn't come across as being flat. I think now this is a three story obviously and you have the garage there like we would but I this jetting out like that I think would be highly attractive in tenants and is a way just to kind of elevation is so flat it just and and so something like this that just out instead of it being roof covered cuz that's probably more expensive to do. I think something like this would probably visually do what you were looking correct. But also I could see a lot of dealing with tenants. I could see a lot of tenants finding something like that very attractive. Y

we need to add dimension dimension back elevation and something like this. If you go back to the other one that I think Kevin was talking about um the two I think it was you know it showed this but that's the whole house coming out if you know what I mean. That's a three story house. That's one unit. So, it's a little bit different. Yeah. And and if you go back to option four again, um is is you know, you could have it on, you know, the other level, too, but you don't have to have the deck on both. You know, the units can be different from each other. But I think it really breaks things up. Definitely.

Yeah. It also what that does and I like it it it kind of hides the garage. You know if the garage doesn't stand out they coming out over top of it. Um so that is definitely something that we can do. Unfortunately we can't wrap the whole building in brick. Those are like $1.8 million condos in Bethesda. So much like the gentleman from city market. Yeah. A little bit different market. Two 1.2 million. You going to sign the first But yeah, so I I like I like the overhang deck because it does you lose a draw a little bit and and the way the one in Diamond Back was built, it just popped right out. It was the first one we saw. Yeah.

Okay. Right. So option Oh, we kind of put option three on the back burner and we talked about option four. Option five. Uh makes sense. You know, we don't I do not like this. Exactly. I would say Scandinavian too, but it's Nashville. I was unusual about like

I don't mind some of the elements of that of six. I don't mind it. I'm not saying that I probably prefer option one, but I I'm just giving because I think the AR you're the architect, right? I I don't mind some of the vibe of that. Am I wrong or do you not like it? I I think it's great just not on this site. Okay. Oh, I think it has beautiful outfit but not on the not with the willow there are some similarities where the club outs and there are some similarities but I I agree you when

when Mr. off had shown us the the diamond back that that's the option one built on diamond back drive. It did seem to fit more than anything we had looked at. This would be great somewhere in Westminster. I just don't think it would be great. So, one other thing that I'd like to kind of point out as we're going there's a difference in windows. There's, you know, single double tone windows. There's something more like a casement or here. I guess it would be nice to know kind of your preference in that because that does drastically change the look of a building. Well, true. Um, so that would be nice to to get feedback on as well as um materials.

Option one shows those are singles. They look nice and gold, but they've added some Well, if you look at option three, I just think aesthetic. This is just me and maybe I'm wrong, but you know, when you have that divided light more, it just kind of I don't know, makes things somewhat look more attractive. And let's blame Jane. You know what I mean? Well, you can do a single hung that's divided. Yeah, that's like that. Yeah,

I know. That's I'm just saying that gives visually gives some interest. Option five is kind of that looks like something that you know option seven may I speak up with you? um maybe in a certain place of downtown, but that doesn't that doesn't do anything for me there. And unfortunately, the way they have the garages pulled back doesn't doesn't

we kind of like that. So, I'm guessing this is a surface above the garage area, but we don't have a footprint to make something like that would be like a bigger green field. So, it all I do like that concept, right? And this site doesn't responsive. Yeah, it would be sight near the wall that that would go right next. Where's that we have next next to the wall? So, option eight. It doesn't do anything.

Doesn't do anything for me. I don't like the colors of that. Well, and that's what this one was primarily about is to see what colors that you like. I mean, to me that just I don't don't want to say I personally like stone and color. It looks like it's a little tassier than which how would you make that color come out the way it is? Obviously, it's not stone and brick.

Well, there there would be stone elements as opposed to brick elements. I personally like just personal preference. I like stone a little bit more. Um I would not build what they I think they're showing there. Is that private? I mean long term I would not want to put that but I wouldn't want to go because next

no this one down there in a bright place. I don't necessarily mind I don't like the back, but it's similar to the back that we already have. Um, it's not bad, but I don't know that for that site, you know, it's a three story. I don't know. You know how in the know how in the past kind of went out of existence? Now

it's like everybody wants everybody else driveway or the garage residents love front load. Yeah, I know. Residents, the actual buyers love the front load because they can live out of their garage. But planning planners love rear loads. It just looks much prettier on a plan. Yeah, you get more parking on the front of the building. So, you can have that ability too where you can just have all these driveways.

Not that exciting there.

13. Yeah, 13. It's at least broken up with the different colors and things like that. Yeah, it's straight. It feels too modern. Well, it's very much like the first one that we brought to you guys that you said was Yeah, it's too modern. I mean, in the right place on the right side, it would be fine, but not not Yeah, but that is another example of the overhanging deck over the garage. Yeah, true. Those much different style architecturally. Yeah, you know, I like I personally like that concept. I don't know how you would do it on option one, but there's something to be said about that.

Oh, I know they could do that on option one in the back. I really think that's I think it's smart. I like it. Spin the deck just a little bit. Yeah, it doesn't have to be the full width. It just doesn't when you look at it, the text is not drawn to the garage door. Well, and that that that earlier option we looked at, like I said, it it brings it it makes the building look lower because it breaks it in half and it kind of hides the garage. Your eyes pull to the deck, not the garage. And that's, you know, people if we got one complaint that was common was that the buildings are going to look tall. They're going to look tall. Yes. Anything you do on the back to to change that dimension, it's going to make it feel shorter. Yeah.

You like those? Oh, yeah. before. I like the one that was shown on on option for the rear view a lot. Yeah,

I I like that which is this. You know, this is just more in keeping I think with the character. Option four is more the rear of option four is more in keeping with I think the aesthetic of option one. Option 16 I think is kind of neat. I don't necessarily think it's neat for this location, but it's kind of more downtown element. I don't like the park garage obviously, but I think this gives that verbome kind of look you might have down. It has these little neat elements and then that's it. Yeah. So, go back to option one.

You don't happen to have that when we submitted it the previous time because we did take the footprint and we did that. So, I'm curious to hear that. I think I think it was the color schemes. Um, it was bright, a little modern. The color schemes are a little too modern, I think, when we looked at it last time. Um, I think these are some of the colors. Maybe the rendering just the colors that were used. It just gave that feeling of brick. We did blue. We did. It kind of hit the brick. It kind of when you look at it, you really can't see the you couldn't tell the difference in materials. This is where I have always been rendered. Yeah.

Right. The last thing I want to do is create something like this because this seems to be the the consensus of the direction and I don't want to create this again because I feel like we already did and I don't I don't know that saw that that was something that we had submitted in and then we were maybe it was the rendering. I I don't know. But I to me I I think what you know between the the brick work and I get whatever this is is concrete looking material. Um and you know it has the the jet outs the individual doors. There's a lot of appealability. It could have been the back. Well I'm not talking about the backs right now. I'm talking about

I know but if they gave us a picture that's how it would have I think that the that we like correct me if I'm wrong guys but I I think we like the aesthetics of the front of this generally lines yeah the line and like this side the individual entrances I think is a a good element and I think the side here looks really nice just I think we like the direction this is headed is that correct That's I like those. I like those two. I just don't like the the back. We go to option four. We b those. We pull those recessed. If you if you take How would you kind of take that work?

You would instead of a recessed deck, which is what if you go back to the rear jut the deck out. You're going to jut it out instead of recessing it into the building. No, you can do a combo. You could do one level that's recessing. You mentioned I like the break. I like the lower level being the one that jumps out because the garage and I think it should go all the way across the back. It hides that just hides the whole garage. Maybe you do it in different depths just to even break it up more. What 14 has is a hybrid. It's recessed and then it's tan

which I think gives it more. Yeah, I like that. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you do have you every other one is recessed. They're all at different one is back, one is out. They all they all J out of the garage has that and that tall element there further breaks the back up. I don't know that with those little things. I do like it feels very this feels very modern. So it's hard for me to see visualize what you but but you know but I think that option one gives you a good feel for kind of the direction we want. Is that correct? Except for a different I like the front and the side of option one.

I think like I say just putting a deck or something on the back um that looks so flat. We we may come back with a couple of options for the rear because it seems like for the most part subject to materials and colors and lines and dimension of the front sides work. Let's dig in to see what we can do on the back and maybe come with a couple of rear options. Yeah. Or even if you have, you know, cuz you might, you know, have different vibes of what you a couple different variations of a theme that you come back with and we can kind of react to that. I do have a question just looking at the rear option one

the decks are one above the other is any way that each one could be offset like one first floor deck be on one side of the building and the second floor deck be on the second side of on the other side the front no rear rear the deck are like right above they're above each other right now could be offset from each other because the units are stacked I don't know the interior the only way that you would do that would actually to make it look like that, you'd have to have units that didn't have one. In other words, you'd have to skip a unit. And right now, the units are one above the other. So, if you were to offset that that top deck, you would offset it by basically taking that deck.

And I don't want to I cuz you need to figure out what the floor plan is and kind of make it work. So, that's why I'm saying if you come back Yeah. So if you come back with different ideas because you want to have I'm sure the floor plan is very important to what you want to achieve from a of what a tenant wants. Well, just just so I'm clear, I want to flip. So Jay, what you're saying is instead of there being like I'm just stacking one to the left and one of them to the right, the top unit be on the left hand side and the bottom unit be on the right hand side. But Jay, I think their their intent is to take that decking and have it all the way across.

If you do all the way across, yeah, it's no different. But like I say, at least on the lower level, it would go all the way across. Yeah. And what they might do is on the because they're two over twos, correct me if I'm wrong, you might instead of having something that jets out on the third and fourth floor, it might be integral. Yeah. I like I like the variation. So one comes out, the other one goes in. So theoretically then the bottom level wouldn't have that recessed. No, it would be it would be on all the units door French door sliding door you walk all the lower units would have a deck that juts out and sort of covers the garage and then the levels would be recess a much bigger deck too. Yeah.

So it's a that's a living area type thing too. That's that's something that's in I think you go to option more death. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll go to option. Sorry, but I think you really like and I agree with you the the vibe of this because it does a great job. It makes the garage look really short and and if this only went halfway across, it would totally change the impact of the visual. I think the fact that this decking goes all the way across the back like that above the double garage door aesthetically achieves something that's cut that rear elevation in half. Yes.

Yeah. I think it's going to go a long way to addressing some of the concerns that people have. Yeah. And then at the the second story or the third and fourth story, you wouldn't take it all the way across or you would it would be recess. So instead, so the lower the lower level would and I don't know that they would it would go across without a you' have a break probably between the units. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're not going to take this. Every unit on the first floor would have that deck that covered the garage and then the second floor so it didn't look redundant would be recessed. Yeah. No, I think that could work aesthetically. I I do too. I think it it definitely breaks up the mass

and then it breaks up it just gives some interesting visual elements. Two things that you that no one likes about the back is the the mass of the garage and the and the fact that there's no dimension, but just that deck alone will break that up.

So, I have a a question uh for you too. So, as far as materials go, what what kind of material would you use to be able to accomplish this? Well, either where the masonry is, it would either be brick or stone. Um, that's those your obviously your two options there. And probably hardy plank for the on the the fronts. I would not, but that that's an I'm assuming like a pre-cast stone. I I Yeah, I would. We can accomplish that same smooth look with Hardy with Hardy. I just wouldn't like to try. What's that? Never holds up very well.

Yeah, this is like a fiber board. Fiber basically siding. Yeah, we did. It's basically wood, but it's like a large panel board. It's a cement board. Oh, yeah. It's fiber. And it looks like wood. A lot of historical um commissions approve Hardy in lie of wood siding nowadays because of the match and the durability and the durability. Just don't use drive. No, we won't because it's longterm the nightmare because you get water penetration and

I live in a house that I had to replace it all at once. So I'll never do that again. Yeah, I've heard that cares about that. Yeah. If it's not drained properly, you can end up with mold in your house and you got to rip the hole. I had one of those in West ones I lived in all the exterior. All right. So, you kind of have a sense what

I wishes there was a picture of the floor of a four story here. This I'm having trouble just imagining what the bathroom any any break for the next three stories with the you would just have the holes for the deck. Well, I think once they come back with with something that will help us kind of I can see it in my head, but like I do you can do something different with material on that top floor with color again. It brings up if you go a little darker that roof line is going to feel like you bring it down. Well, that might be Yeah. And that might I think you got pretty good direction.

So, just next steps we we come back with something that's acceptable. then that would allow us to then move to the the site plan phase of this thing. Yeah. Well, the the site is the last thing remaining for for the site plan. Yeah. So, um does it go to the mayor of common council?

This is the So, the next So, the next step once we finalize this would be just like we just have the other project. We need a recommendation letter that's drafted by the planning zoning commission for recommendation to the mayor common council. Okay. highlighting these you know elements and and ultimately whatever plan that is to be approved option three elevations they would be exhibits as part of that recommendation only for the P our PD so they carry Yep for the P so they would just carry over we we've had the public hearing yes yeah we've had the public hearing for this we had that at our the only thing we have to do then is come to an agreement on the elevation

elevations and finalize a recommendation like we just did. Yeah. Okay. And then it would go to the mayor and common council and at that point we would the next step would be the site. Then the next step is then we have to go to mayor and common council for final approval for the PD zone. This is just the planning and zoning commission's recommendation to them. Um but again the planning and zoning commission with all the effort and work they put into it historically we've seen now is that when you get the mayor county council it's less because we've done

so I'm so helps because when you you know even though it seems like you've taken a lot of time here we have um the hope is by the time it gets to the mayor and common counsel it's not a long process that and he sort these things out in a workshop.

Correct. Because I don't think you'll get I cannot I can't promise you anything of only one member but um if recent history is similar because there's been a lot of good work on this level and staff can demonstrate that by showing all the different variations that that we've gotten here. Then when we get to the mayor and common council that tends to move pretty quickly or pretty smoothly and then at that point once you pull down that zone correct Mr. Debo then you would actually go to the site plan process which comes back to you all

which comes back to us but but it's so much easier at that point because we've already seen we've already basically seen it at that point it's not like a new a totally new project to us. So just keep the wheels moving so you can get you know get through it. We're ready. So January we can come back assuming we get some of these guys plan. Yeah. Get stuff into us. We'll do the same thing once we get anything from you. I can always send it out to the plan zoning commission get individual feedback from them. Um so yeah. So we'll do I think the front and side were pretty clear on it. We'll try to give a couple options for the rear. So it made you distinction things for me in that way

and kind of what your what you want to see for color I think is important that you but I have no objection to like on the front and side if you have a little bit of a variation of a theme you're welcome to share that with us as well because it might be like oh well you know there's option 1 A or option 1B you know that gives a chance to kind of react because sometimes little things can matter like the types of windows like all of those kind of things that you guys can kind of think through on your end because there might be some things from a from a construction standpoint you're like well hey I think this is going to be more aesthetically appealing and it it's more efficient whether it's costefficient or efficient in some other manner

and we'll take the opportunity now that we've got at least a baseline set to look at the floor plans too because you know that affects some of it. So, sure, you want a good floor plan cuz that's going to affect your ability to get the most rent cuz you're planning, correct me if I'm wrong, you're planning to keep these units as rental. That is the plan. Now, they would be set up so that they could they would be condominiums. Oh, so you're going to set it up so that in theory, if you ever chose to sell them, you could. I don't want to I don't want to build them to a spec that can't be converted to a building. we would be approaching it as you're going to do because there's different specs that you have to build to. So you set a condo regime up in the beginning and then just rent them. Yeah.

And then down the road you want to sell them your because often times when you try to convert rentals later you you reh you're overhauling mechanicals everything. So yeah, if you do it from the beginning, you're better off. Yeah. Well, you know, um, historically in in Westminster, if you said PD9, it wouldn't go over very well. But I think these are the kind of projects if they're done well, will change people's minds. A density isn't bad if it's done right. You know what I'm saying? Don't tell certain people that even around infill. And I think you want to make the most of your infill cycle.

I mean, babe, you've been around. I would, you know, I started working for the city and Mark's job in 1987, and I'm telling you, we didn't do very many PD9s over the last years. It's just something for whatever reason, I guess people probably were trying to get away from what they saw other places, but it's really changing. It is changing, believe it or not. Viety of housing types. I've had a number of projects, project proposals, different municipalities get rejected because they weren't dense enough. And I never thought I'd see that thing. Oh my god. It's a different It's a different world. Now, not all of Carol County is in that mindset. You guys,

but I think I think Westminster is very open to a diversity of housing types. And I think it's partly because the leadership of Westminster understands that what people fail to understand is housing is also a critical economic development component because when people are looking to locate businesses here, they need places for people to live. Yeah.

And then selfishly the other rabbit hole here, but like I have two boys. I want them to they're 18 and 22. I want them to be able to live in Carol County and when they're first starting out like something like this, a little condo or whatever townhouse, you know, we need that. No, you can't have one acre lots everywhere or halfacre lots,

especially when you own water and sewer. There was a uh some years ago there was a kind of a study done and they looked at when there was town houses for sale these v these you know McMansions and in the townhouse developments almost 3/4 of them were purchased by local people from the county if you went to the McMansions was almost totally opposite statistic interesting yeah the concept of providing housing in a city that's cradle to grave is really important cuz you want your kids to stay here and you want to stay here as you age out of the McMansions or the big homes. Like

my my parents couldn't wait to get rid of their home and get into something of one level that they could actually maintain. So you you do you have to have that diversity and housing otherwise you lose your your children and your parents. Correct. And I'm excited because what we have going on, you know, we have a condo building on Green Street that's moved forward. We got this project coming, but then we also have, as we were here tonight, the Wayville Valley uh project. Um, so we're getting I wish there was more and there's lots of great and we did make that more dense. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. But there's lots of great sites that have potential in the city. Oh, yes. That are, you know, woefully underdeveloped now that that have potential in the future.

Got to get a few up so that people see it. see the success of that and then on I would love to see some redevelopment downtown because we have some of these these buildings where you know you have at the storefront on the first level but you could totally redo the other levels and completely old housing product and people like in today's modern world you know there are people that like to walk out their door and go to the Starbucks down the street or Genie Birds down the street or whatever at a point at a point in my life I loved it I lived in downtown Pur and that was a very appealing. You live in Frederick. I did. Frederick is like amazing.

Yeah. I I mean I I eventually moved out aged out of that and I live in Brighting Heights now and a bigger house and I now can't wait to get out and get into something smaller right down the street from Well, I like the the one thing I like about Frederick, I know I'm getting off topic here, but is that like little that micro brewery district they have. They've got like they got like five or six micro breweries in one place and it's like there's a brewery or distillery on every every other block there now. Good job, but they're downtown. It really has. It's a good example. Okay. So, I like living downtown.

I I like the fact that everything is I can go to a doctor's office. I can go to that building that they painted white. my house.

He is right about something that ultimately it's the person that's running it opinion that actually matters because I've I've built things before that I thought were phenomenal and they just flopped. So that's the thing about real estate, huh? And architecture and design is so objective and so many people feel strongly one way or the other and there's really no right or wrong at the end of the day. We have a product type even the two over twos. People love it, people hate it. Will be the first two over two. And yeah, I believe it's the first and they had a slow start, but they've become embraced, I think. Yeah.

So, what do you do? Do you do a certain amount of soundproofing between the two units that you don't have that issue of somebody, you know, taking their word? You think you can sound, but I haven't even figured out how to stand sound for my single family home. here now. Is most of your work in like this Frederick County region. You do further west too. Um, so do you want any work in Hagersville? We do. I actually my largest project I'm working on now. Um, it's probably not the most popular one, but I'm in the process of entitling a 2000 unit development in Bo. So Oh, really?

Mostly age restricted 55 and over active adult. So where would that be? Basically everything from 34 all the way back up to 40 behind branded behind the town 500 acres. It's in the town now and zone but we're creating a floating zone and in the process of getting that adopted is the road that runs down. Yeah. Silver. You don't have any other projects in Carol County going on right now. Do you? Um we have a project in Tony County but not in the southern part of the county. We have and then we have and then we have a property that we would very much like to annex in Westminster which is right next to the the mall from the mall. The property that we talked about.

Oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So, Oh, I think at some point when the time is right, we'd like to, you know, begin. I think eventually something's going to be houseable. Now, it is. And there's a house on the corner, right? Yes. It I mean, it makes sense. It's It's well located. It's right there. Um, but we've been It's in a gross boundary. Definitely. Yeah. So, Tom, if you could real quick your name and address so we record. Uh, it's Tom Hos with Burden Development Group. Our office is 5310 Spectrum Drive Sweet C in Frederick uh 2173. And you're the contract purchaser. Is that correct?

This is of this property. Mr. Bonger is the owner. We're the contract purchaser myself and my partner Dan Ryan. Okay. So contract are you're not the sole owner. It's the family. I mean part of the part of the property is owned by Daisy Corporation which was my mother, my father, my uncle, my aunt. Then my brother Marcus and I owned the house on Pennsylvania Avenue. Okay. That's how it all comes. Okay. So ma'am, could you give your name and stuff for the record?

Uh Hannah Wel of Zavos Architecture and Design uh 21 Bike Court uh Sweet Eye in Frederick. Great. It's been helpful. I appreciate it. We'll look forward to seeing you in January. Merry Christmas. Great. Merry Christmas. Hold on. If you can. Okay. So, the county is not around uh tonight, but they did send uh over two and a half pages or I think it's four pages of updates. Did you do you kind of like

I'm gonna give it to you and I can't answer anybody look at them. If you have any questions I can get you answers but I wouldn't be able to update you really. Um and that is a report. kind of like the way she say pretty much in the future this will be kind of blank because the parts of the county they don't allow voting. So true. You know maybe it'll be an even shorter report then. Sorry. All right. Any that's the truth. It is the truth.

I do have one more piece of business. So, January meeting, I was hoping that you could look check your calendar to change the date right now because January 1st is fix is a Thursday. Um the 15th is the third um Thursday. That is also the Carol County um the commissioners are having a reception that evening. Um if there's any way we can change it on the 20th, let us know you're available. That's a Thursday, right? Yeah, it's it's just the following Thursday. It's just the third Thursday early. Instead of the 15th, we're going to do the contract. Yes. Yeah. Make that work.

Okay. And then we'll just go ahead and obviously I'll send out an email and everything to remind you. Um but we would appreciate if we could do that because we do have a public hearing in January. Probably not. So I'm not sure. The reason that I'm I'm asking is because we have a public hearing that we have to advertise for uh for the water resources elements and the county. So I just want to make sure everybody will be here and then also that we have enough time to advertise. We have so many.

All right. Uh, have I had a motion to I have one item. Okay. Just to just to I've been noticing this probably for 10 years maybe, but uh anyone else gets

they're going down Main Street, past Center Street, people are making the left turn and you can't get past how how aggravating that is. Whereas on Longwell, you can kind of go around them. You know what I mean? I just didn't know if there's some it could at least be brought to the attention of someone in the the works department to see if there's a way you forget a little bit of space squeezed out of there or something because it's where no left turns allowed or you know or no left turns at certain times. Yeah, because sometimes it's not really a problem, but in busy times,

I guess staff can ask, you know, talk to public works about it. Is that correct? Sure. Yeah, I mean, we can ask. It might be that it's like that way for a reason, but we can certainly ask. Yeah, I wouldn't mind, but it's been noticed and it's going through and you see them stack people up because you can't pass the person and just uh I hate to think what it might be like. At one point, one point historically, uh, Center Street was going to be one way and Ralph Street was going to be was going the other way. So, you wouldn't have that problem. Ah, but Ralph Street never happened. So, of course, none of that never that was the plan.

You have a lot of historical knowledge street right through town and connected down by Mbrook in one direction. and you know improve it from like um where they're building a new state attorney's office and you know take it down through there and then I mean granted be rights. Yeah. And then and then center street you had like you had two lanes you get traffic down quicker you wouldn't have this problem that we're dealing with now but that was pretty well scrapped as many plan that's all

yeah good point all right there motion to motion motion made second to all in favor say I have it now 172 43