Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Travis just an Oh. Uh, testing audio. Testing audio. Mr. Test from the audio from the far end on the speaker here. Can you test your microphone and speak into the chambers? This is a test. Test audio test.

Testing audio. Test test. You catching that Travis? Start it again once. And there's Commissioner Hellfrey. Testing audio. Test test test. Travis, can you confirm? Keep going, Tim. Testing audio. Test test test. Testing audio test. Once some more, Tim. Testing audio test.

All right. Thank you. We appear to be back on Zoom. So, we're going to um get going here in again in a minute. And for everyone that is on Zoom, we did pause the meeting during the outage. So, you haven't missed any conversation. So, just want to make you aware of that. Well done, Travis. First of all, with the permission of the chair,

go ahead. Thanks to everyone for your patience. Um, we've been doing Zoom since the pandemic and the first time we've experienced something like that here in the council chambers. So, our apologies and thanks again for being patient and waiting with us to get the system back up and running. I believe Mr. Jackson was going to make a comment and we concluded before he could.

Oh, that's fine. Um I think the audience and others have covered most of the thing the challenges I would say to building data like the water for cooling and where does that go but uh they did touch on the power uh that's a problem and when you're doing your research on ordinances it's not just about waiting for say an Amron or someone to build a power they build their own plants and some of those are natural gas among other types of power plants and that requires massive amounts the storage for the fuel and they keep moving them in. Uh and then once the power is built up and etc they could relocate those to another project or whatever. Uh I would just say when you're researching your stuff I just wanted to point out there is other methods of power along those lines too to look at. Thanks.

Thank you. Also, I've been advised that data centers come in all shapes and sizes and so I will advise the planning and zoning commission will cover all of them from the smallest to the largest and again from the department's perspective best location if there is a location in Wildwood will be the industrial area from um from the perspective of the department as it presents options to the commission.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Commission. All right. Go ahead, Commissioner. You know, and [clears throat] then Mr. Lee, I saw your hand up. I'll come to you next.

In listening to everybody here, I I think the consensus was that the only positive for a data center was money. Uh other than the seller of the property, who else is [snorts] on the receiving end of this money? Wildwood doesn't have a property tax. But would we get money from their utility tax? Certainly, unless it's the situation that Mr. Jackson explained. They bring their own power system to the project and don't connect to the public grid. But yes, our gross receipts tax would apply.

So that would be the only positive that we Well, certainly there's um some type of business licensing that would be involved, although that's a nominal amount relative to other taxes and charges. Um but like I say, we'll do our research before we prepare a report. I'm thinking the more we talk and the comments that have been provided may not be in a couple weeks that we're prepared to present, but certainly by March, we hope to be in a position to provide good information to the commission to make the best decision. Um, Commissioner Hry, she has one quick statement, then I'll come to you.

Mr. Dr. Vich, when you're planning all of the information for us, can could you please come up with the definition of what a data center is? Yes. And I think our city attorney will be integral in that given his background. So, yes, we'll define it as we do in a lot of um of our changes to the zoning ordinance. Oftentimes, we advertise them for the definition section as well because the definitions are the devil in the detail. Thank you. All right, Mr. Lee,

thank you. I just wanted to add a couple comments too and uh just doing a little bit of research on this, especially Senate Bill 4, which is pertinent to this, that it that its intent was to um pretty much make it so when one of these data centers comes in, it would not increase the cost um when building out infrastructure to the residents uh that live nearby if they're drawing from the main grid. I just wanted to point out u that there are some provisions in there that would need further study and the department will plan to do just that. Uh one being this um difference between like a mega loadbearing um data center and a non- mega loadbearing one. Uh it sets a some type of definition of 100 um megawws that they have to consume in order to have these provisions start being enforced. So that said, if it's under that 100 megawws, they can technically, you know, pass those infrastructure costs. So there's a lot of research to be done here. I just wanted to emphasize and and u also put uh kind of reflect what the mayor and also Mr. Vunich has mentioned tonight. Um just that we do not have any inquiries currently at this time. This is more so as a proactive measure like we've done in the past with some other similar hot topics across the US. Um and also I did just want to answer to the the revenue side. there really isn't all too much other than the 5% gross receipts you would have. Um there wouldn't be a sales tax in that in that regard. And also just thinking out loud, if it was built in the industrial area, those individuals would most likely frequent and go to 40 in order to grab lunch and would know would most likely and this has been a discussion in the industrial area for a long time would actually be contributing to the local economy here and actually shopping here. So the jobs that were created, they wouldn't necessarily be eating here in Wildwood, which then wouldn't give us any of the sales tax revenue that we'd hope to get. So you'd really be looking more so at the gross receipts. Um it it would be pretty nominal considering. So just wanted to point that out. Even the

we don't have a property tax here in Wildwood. So the assessed valuation, even though it would be increased dramatically by adding one of these facilities, the city of Wildwood actually would not have um would not receive any benefit from that. it would remain the same and the county would see that benefit but not Wildwood. But just wanted to point those out and [clears throat] uh the department of planning but also department administration look forward to doing this research to give the commission here the best choice available moving forward. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mayor Garano.

Yeah. Um I think we've had great input tonight and and this is just a public hearing for tonight. So, I'm sure the department will be putting a lot of work into this to uh come back with a report. So, I would say we can make a motion to close public hearing. Great. Thank you. Um, all those in favor of closing the public hearing say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstensions? All right. Public hearing is now closed. And thank you. I want to thank everyone for their time and participation.

Yeah. Um, next on the agenda is uh PZ14-25 Chalilly. Uh, Mr. Newberry 14-25 Chili Care of Paul Mertz 46C Warthingington Access Drive, Maryland Heights, Missouri 63043. A request for a conditional use permit CU and the FPNU flood plane non- urban residence district and inu non- urban residence district to accommodate a requested additional use of the subject property which is located on the south side of St. Albins Road, west of State Route 100, Street address 18944, St. Albins's Road, St. Louis County, locator number 23 Y220108, and over 5 acres in size for the purposes of authorizing a sales room, retail, and wholesale in conjunction with the existing farm, gardens, plant nurseries, cultivated lands, and green houses, W six.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vunich.

Thank you again, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair and members of the commission, if you'll recall from our December meeting, a motion was made which was seconded and a voice vote was taken to proceed forward to the letter of recommendation relating to this particular request. So tonight, the department has prepared for final consideration the letter of recommendation relating to Chili, which is to be located on State Highway T or St. Albins's Road. The department would note that this particular site has been used for plant nursery and greenhouse purposes along with the sales room for decades. The intent of this petitioner is to resume that operation with minimal changes in the conditions in conjunction with the favorable recommendation from the department. It has tried to con fashion them so as any new improvements whether it be parking spaces, green houses, etc. would be required to meet the underlying requirements of the non-urban resident district. Otherwise, the current situation can stay in place and not be considered non-conforming under the conditional use permit. As mentioned that the department has prepared a favorable recommendation and believes that this particular use has become part of the character of the valley as it's been called and certainly will continue forward I think under the new ownership in the same success that the old AR old ownership had the bell roses. So tonight before you is the final letter of recommendation, a favorable recommendation regarding the planning and zoning commission granting

the permit for the sales room and that the item would then be forwarded to city council for its receipt and filing at the beginning of February. If there are any questions or comments after a motion and second department be glad to try to answer them. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Vunich. Mayor Garano. Yes, thank you chair and uh you know I happy to make a motion approving the uh permit as re recommended in the report here and uh you know especially considering you know the uh time you know that we had this evening with the outage. I'm happy to move forward and let's get that going there with that. uh we've seen a lot of positive review and it's great to see the business uh there continue the the green houses the far green houses that have been there for many years a long time actually long history so uh great to see that place come to life again um director Vunage uh I'm going to make that motion but I know that the spring season's probably coming up around the corner um is there anything that we can do to help you know make things as efficient as possible and move quickly is there any motion or anything as part of the motion tonight.

Actually, with your motion as proposed, that will conclude the review by the planning and zoning commission. At the February 9th city council meeting, as you know, I explained that the city council has 15 days to exercise power review. They have that authority to wave that 15 days. And that may be a question that would be best answered there. If the city council waves its authority of power review, then the permit would become effective thereafter. Okay, great. Well, I'm going to go ahead and make that motion for the approval of the uh conditional use permit as and Commissioner Jackson seconds. Any discussion?

All right, seeing none, roll call v roll call vote. Commissioner Hoffrey, yes. Commissioner Deppler, yes. Commissioner Deppler votes yes. Commissioner Jackson, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Just chair Batty. Yes. Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Gitano, yes.

Motion carries. Thank you. All right. Next on the agenda, um I don't see a PZ number, but uh Whan Custom Homes, Mr. Newberry. A request from Wayland Custom Homes, Inc. Care of Mike Whan, 338 South Kirkwood Road, Sweet 105 St. Louis, Missouri 63122-6166. that is seeking a waiver to the city's requirements that all large lot single family subdivisions install packaged wastewater treatment plants in areas of the Wildwood community not currently served by public sanitary sewers which if granted would thereby allow the use of individual household wastewater treatment systems for service on each of the proposed lots of record. This large lot single family subdivision is being proposed upon a 51 and approximately 51 acre tract of land that is situated on the west side of Christy Avenue south of its intersection with Manchester Road. Tingles County locator numbers 24W6100045, 24W520102, and 24W240015. Street addresses 2725, 2731, and 2799 Christy Avenue in your non-rurban residence district. Proposed use, a total of 15 single family dwellings on individual lots are being requested on this subject tract of land, each being 3 acres or greater in size, along with necessary private roadway improvements to access them. Bendic Estates Subdivision, Ward One.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vinnich.

Thank you again, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair and members of the commission, just to advise, this particular item tonight for your consideration relates only to whether a waiver should be granted to the petitioner for centralized wastewater treatment. The preliminary plat relating to this project were a number of the issues that were identified relative to lots size, lot density, lot configuration, setbacks, etc. That all is part of the preliminary plat report that's prepared by the department for the commission's consideration. So again, we're not making decisions relative to the lots themselves or the project in its context, but more so will it have individual septic systems on each of the lots versus a single wastewater treatment plant. A bit of background probably would be beneficial here. And again, this is going back 30 years to the incorporation of the city. At that time, the appointed city council and appointed mayor had heard over the course of three months a number of concerns of residents about the process and the products of St. Louis County. One of them was that septic systems failed. Septic system failures were prevalent and St. Louis County did little to address them. Secondly, in response to those complaints, the planning and zoning commission at that time was asked to investigate alternative. That investigation led us to Missouri Department of Natural Resources, Missouri Department of Health and Senior

Services, and St. Louis County. Collectively at that time 30 years ago the statistic was as follows. If there are 10 individual household treatment systems, nine of them are not being maintained to the manufacturer specification. Doesn't mean they were all in failure, but it meant that they all collectively the nine were not functioning as designed and at some point discharging a mix of treated influent could be tertiary, could be primary or even worse. That's the origin. Now, to address concerns that were voiced at the time about the cost of a plant versus individual household treatment systems, an analysis was done with manufacturers of plants and individual systems. The break point appeared to be eight. A single plant was equal to the cost of eight systems, individual systems. And so that's the waiver component. Eight or more, it's a plan. Seven or less, it's at the discretion of the department of planning. So when you look at the table that's included in both of the reports, this one as well as the other to be heard next, the trend, the pattern of the planning and zoning commission has been a waivers typically granted to the plan when the density of the project is substantially less than what the underlying zoning district designation would accommodate. In this case, again, the non-urban resident district. one home for every three acres.

In the case of Vend in the case of Bendic Estates, the yield is almost at its maximum and that's a key component in the department's consideration. The yield, the maximum yield equates to the following. State statute as well as the local plumbing code administered by St. Louis County and adopted by the city of Wildwood basically says this. A system an individual system is sized on the on the following basis. The number of bedrooms times 120 gallons per bedroom. As we've seen from Whale and Custom Homes as well as Lombardo Homes, their products are not small houses, one and twobedroom. So, the department did an analysis. A typical four-bedroom house, which is what we see quite frequently in the city of Wildwood. 15 or 16 homes equates to over 7,000 gallons of waste water being generated a day. that's being disposed of on an approximately 50 acre tract of land. It's not to say the plant isn't going to treat that same amount of volume, but it's going to be in a single system out of a single pipe into the natural system. From the department's perspective, if maintenance isn't addressed on a regular basis and if we're generating that amount of flu fluent, is individual systems appropriate. The next kind of item that the department investigated is just the conditions of the property. And I recognized that the Missouri Department of Natural Resources issued a report

saying that the soils are suitable. But in the same report, they noted that past clay mining had been occurred on the site. Clay doesn't accommodate the free movement of affluent or groundwater. And so there are instances on this particular property where there are depressions. At first, I thought they were sinkholes, but they're remnants of the clay mining process. They also note that there are on the site that have high content of clay in that soil. We also know that just a short distance to the northwest, Walnut and Maple Avenues have severe problems with individual household treatment systems. much smaller lots, but generally speaking, in the general vicinity of the property, in those two instances, on those two streets, there's a perched water table, high water table. It's at 13 in below the surface. It affects the treatment of fluent. So, the department in its opinion is here to provide a cautious recommendation to the commission. And that cautious recommendation is although it's one plant and some have said it would be unsightly and smell the plants themselves are below grade meaning they're at grade and the the inner the equipment the fields are below grade. They're fenced. So, the fence does create a visual impact. And if not maintained, just like individual household treatment systems, they will have an o an odor. Is this the best recommendation of the department? I don't think there is a

good recommendation. If we truly believe what the state and county have told us that individual household treatment systems aren't being maintained to manufacturer specifications and we have one plant that could fail. Well, I guess I'm again providing you a cautious recommendation given the sight specific characteristics and the densities that's being proposed. In this instance, the department is recommending the plant versus individual household treatment systems. It recognizes that way and custom homes is offered to increase the amount of individual escrow for each home, put the responsibility of maintenance on the homeowners association, and proceed forward. What I will tell you is the plants that we've had issues with and there's been a couple that were approved early on in the first 10 years of the city. Those same plants were under the guidance of the homeowners association and they didn't follow through. I'm afraid they won't follow through here. The safety net of all of this is each year the Missouri Department of Natural Resources required requires the submittal of an inspection report on the plants themselves. They are a safety net. That safety net as you heard from one of the speakers from on the data centers doesn't exist. They're underfunded or understaffed, but at least it's better than nothing. And I guess that's kind of the most telling statement tonight. We've got two bad choices. No public entity to provide wastewater treatment like the Metropolitan St. Louis sur district. So one bad end of pipe is better than 16 or 15 or whatever the number may be. So tonight you have a

recommendation that does not support the waiver. If there are any questions or comments, the department be glad to try to answer them at this time. Thank you, Mr. Venich. Um, discussion or motion.

Mayor Gartown.

Yeah, I do have a question here. um regarding um I guess what was mentioned during the petitioner speaking about the West Eden project and the um I guess the Astro because it sounds like that might be in a way a safety net um to if we were to go down this path of allowing the individual septic systems. So could you can you elaborate a little bit more on that? Certainly the West Eden situation which is a project of large lot single family residential development on the northeast corner of Milrose Road and State Group 100. The key determinant in the department support of the waiver wasn't necessarily the escrow because the escrow came out of the discussion by the planning and zoning commission relative to that request. It wasn't offered by the developer. I will say the developer agreed to it immediately. and that's a positive. But in that instance, it was a 66 acre tract of land with 12 homes. The math tells you that that developer brought in a project with 10 less units than authorized by the underlying zoning district designation. I think that's the key determinant, but certainly anything the city can do to fund homeowners associations, whether it's in town center or in the rural areas of Wildwood, that's a positive because typically when the developer leaves, the homeowners associations are underfunded, not prepared, and given the keys to the castle and said, "You take care of it." And I want to avoid that. I think it's incumbent on the city to basically address that situation. So yes, if you are leaning toward the waiver, I think the $5,000 amount is appropriate. And I think having the HOA

through the trust intention is given greater authority to address problems, including access to the property and repair. I think that's a step in the right direction. Commissioner Jack. Yeah. So, we're talking a minimum of three acres. Is there a way this could be engineered where 10 acres per house or whatever would would meet would perk essentially is what we're talking about. Is is there a way to go in that direction?

It's a good question. I don't have the answer and if you want that to be explored, we certainly can. But as you'll recall with West Eden, the state of Missouri, the Department of Natural Resources required them to share potable wells. So each pair of houses has a single well. So instead of 12 individual wells into the aquifer, there's six, two served by each one. So we could certainly explore that. I don't know. years ago the argument that we used to hear from um let's say institutional uses why build three plants to serve a church a school and a business why don't you build one collectively put your resources together and build one and operate it as a unit the state has something called a continuing authority and it scares everybody and that okay I'm operate I'm disposing of my waste water in the appropriate way it plant goes down. I know I didn't do it. Who did it? And I don't want to pay for their mistake. And so that's what we deal with. Commissioner Hry.

Oh, um, Councilman Marshall. Um,

no questions, but I would make a motion that we would go with the department's recommendation. I can give you a long list of all the problems we've had in the past. And I think the soil is a bigger issue than whether or not it could be worked out because just as soon as we think we have it figured out and we had some a lot of places where oh yeah, we're going to take care of it. As soon as those initial homeowners leave, nobody wants to touch it and then everybody has a problem and there's no place to go with it. So I I think that we've learned a lot and uh in this particular case with the soil and Mr. V is right. Everything up along Manchester Road, there's no predictability there. Those those were in bad shape to start with. So, I'll make that motion.

Commissioner Hry, I'll second. Any further discussion?

Yeah, I do have a question. Uh, regarding soil, are there any kind of treatments that could be made to address like the high clay content of the soil? I know we've talked in the past about amended soils uh but are there any options at all where that could be explored to still keep the uh the option of the individual systems? So my impression and so again I can be corrected either by Whan Custom Homes or Lombardo Homes is generally speaking they put a footprint down for where they believe the septic system would be best placed. What I what the department doesn't have is a more detailed soils report. We have the information from the state Missouri department of natural resources. But the problem we face is we have a custom build. So the buyer will ultimately make the decision regarding number of bedrooms, the placement of the house relative to the setbacks and frontage. And so it's it's a moving target until a buyer settles in and makes those decision with the builder. But certainly if the commission would want to delay this a couple of weeks, we can engage one of our soil scientists that we've used in the past to help us understand is there a better location and maybe that's where as Mr. Jackson mentioned, we try to direct those individual septic systems to those locations and know that we have preferable soil that will do an excellent job of treatment if minimum maintenance to the system is provided.

Thank you, Joe. I I do um appreciate that and I would think if that's something that could be easily accomplished or or looked at maybe that would keep the option uh available to see, you know, because you did say that they're both not great options. Uh so which one would work better? And I hate to say it. I mean, we've got to treat the wastewater and the only two options that are available in the rural area are these two. public sewer isn't and I would certainly never encourage the city of Wildwood to take that mantle on and become a provider. Mr. Whan, if you want to come up to the Do you mind, Mr.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Joe. And I I certainly understand this is about risk management. Uh first to answer your question, Mr. Mayor, we have done a comprehensive soil analysis. We dug test holes on every single lot. Bob Haney is our our septic engineer on this project. We had to provide that geologic information to the Missouri Department of Natural Resources. And this is one of, and you're right, there's there's clay everywhere in Wildwood, but there are different types of systems, traditional systems, low pressure pipe systems, um, drip systems where you import soils to lay over the top of a septic field to allow for aation and and let oxygen dispose of or dissipate up to 40% of the bacteria in sewage. So, these are very, very sophisticated systems. Every lot is analyzed per the house. Um, we have a Missouri engineer that has to put his seal on it, but that work's already been done and I I had to provide that information to the Department of Natural Resources. Um, and I would be more than happy to share that with the department and uh with the planning and zoning commission. The we're we're trying to manage this risk. A a a central system is difficult for a lot of reasons. Um, at the end of the day, we're going to rely on a homeowners association. Contracting with a septic maintenance company, Missouri licensed maintenance company. It's pretty easy. There are many of them out there. Um, they work all over Wildwood. Uh, they they understand these systems. They know where to get the parts. And you call

them today, they'll be out there tomorrow. Not the same can be said for sophisticated treatment plant. Um there's only a handful of companies that can do that type of work. They typically do larger work and if we have a problem, it's a week before you can get somebody out there and then getting the parts and the pieces can be a big deal. I've built them before in Jefferson County. It's certainly doable. We just believe wholeheartedly based on all the information we have that individuals in this case are better. This is a better piece of property and our soils engineer said it clearly than West Eden was in terms of of the the soil condition. So um I respectfully request an approval. I will be happy to provide all the information moving forward. uh we just can't see. And by the way, cost is not an issue. One of these septic systems is $25,000. There's two homes that are existing homes. Uh Mrs. Bird is here tonight. She's going to stay there. She's had a septic her whole life. And then her brother's house, which is on lot 7, uh is on a septic system. So, if we put all of these on a small treatment plant, um the cost would be the same. It's not. And you know, one might think, oh gosh, that'd be great to be on, you know, on sewer, but we have to put it somewhere and it's going to be in somebody's backyard, one of our one of our uh property owners or one of the neighbors. So I think you know if you just really quick I don't want to take too much of your time but if you go to two engineers

and you say what's better an individual system or a central system they'll say it depends as long as they are maintained and installed properly. They're both fine. They have different types of risk. A centralized system is a surface discharge system. The individual systems are obviously are obviously buried. The individual systems recharge the watershed. They put nutrients into the ground. If they're properly maintained, they're they're and properly installed. They're every bit as environmentally friendly as a centralized system. Centralized system uses a lot more energy. It doesn't take advantage of of aation for the dissipation of bacteria like like ingground systems do and it's a singular point of failure. So different risks they both need to be done correctly. They both need to be done correctly and abiding by Missouri Department of Natural Resources, St. Louis County Plumbing Department. We do the inspections. We escrow the funds. Um we've done it at West Eden so far. It's been fine. We haven't had any problems. Um I would I just think it's the best solution for everybody and I believe wholeheartedly that it would be the easiest to maintain, the simplest to maintain, simplest to monitor and provides the best solution moving forward for everyone. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak and I certainly appreciate your consideration.

All right. Thank you. Appreciate that, Mr. Whan. Let's see here. Mr. Lee, did you want to follow up still?

Yes. Thank you, Chair. I do appreciate the uh time. Um I just wanted to ask one and I and it was partially answered by the developer here, but um would love to see that information that there that was submitted to MDNR u so our planning department, public works department could take a look at it. And the only other question I had is um regarding if there's any additional analysis that would be uh needed in this case to determine which would be a better better approach if that would be something that we could consult with the developer whether or not those costs could be covered by the developer. So just wanted to add that context and um make sure that you know the burden doesn't have to be passed on to the taxpayer. Thank you.

Thank you HR. Mr. Dr. Vunich, I I have two questions for you. Number one, um Mr. Wheeler just mentioned that there's two existing septic systems, individual septic. So, if we would go forward with this, would those still be maintained as individual septic systems, or would they have to then be put onto the plant? The department would recommend that the entirety of the lots be brought onto the system.

Okay. And then uh [sighs] so we we've decided collectively that there's no good answer to this. I think um and so I I voted the way I I voted because I defer to your expert of your expert information.

Expertise. Yes. because you deal with these things every day and I don't but then Mayor Garano said a couple things and I'm wondering do we need should we postpone this in order to have more dialogue with with this development or is that what I'm understanding that you would like to have done? So I seconded the motion. Do I need to uh change my motion or amend it in order for that to happen? I think you can just motion to postpone. No, I there's a motion and a second on the techically on Robert's rules if we're going to follow. Yeah. Well, we can table this. Wait, you let's I'm asking for a question.

A motion to postpone is a primary motion. So, if there is a motion, it circumvents the one that was made by Mr. Marshall and yourself. And certainly um having the information that's available relative to the analysis done by the developer that was provided to the state of Missouri would be beneficial and certainly as Mr. Lee mentioned we can have it reviewed by the city engineer and his team and department of public works and we can certainly review it ourselves. Ripto, Mr. Newberry and I and if push comes to shove sounds like Mr. we would be glad to fund the engagement of a soil scientist, an independent soil scientist to help us.

So, I I am going to make a motion to postpone then because I I'll be honest with you, candidly, I was not aware that there were two existing septic systems. I guess that was my error that they would have to be then undone and put onto a full one. So I I would make the motion to postpone so that maybe you all could come together a little bit more. I I'd be happy to second that. Yep. Mr. Chair, just one item. I'll defer to Mr. Marshall. Just discussion standpoint. We need a date postponed to Yeah. Um how about 30 days? Well, two weeks or six weeks. Okay. I'd like to have it back on February 2nd given our

Okay, let's do that. was in de on December 1st and now we're at January 20th. We've almost had seven weeks of break. I'd like to maybe get some momentum behind this if we could. Okay, let's do it for February. Please postpone till February. Thank you. Thank you. All those in favor of postponing say I. I. Any opposed? All right, we are postponed and we'll hopefully you guys can work something out. All right. Uh, next on the agenda, um, same thing from Lombardo Homes. Okay. Mr. Newberry,

a request from Lombardo Homes of Missouri LLC for Research Park Drive, Sweet 13, St. Charles, Missouri 63304-5638 that is seeking a waiver to the city's requirements that all large lot single family subdivisions install package wastewater treatment plants in areas of logwood community not currently served by public sanitary sewers which if granted would thereby allow the use of individual household wastewater treatment comments um if you're going to talk can you leave the room please all right go ahead um I I think somewhere around individual waste household waste water

the use of house individual household wastewater treatment systems for service on each of the proposed lots of record. This large lot single family subdivision is being proposed upon an approximately 55 acre tract of land located on the south side of St. Albins's road state route T west rest of its intersection with state route 100 FPNU flood plane non-urban residence district and NU non-urban residence district street addresses 18604 and 18700 St. Almonds Road St. Hills County locator numbers 24x440014 and 24 Y640022. Proposed use a total of 16 single family dwellings on individual lots are being requested on the subject tract of land each being 3 acres or greater in size along with the necessary private roadway improvements to access them along with common ground area with visitor parking spaces. The reserve at St. Alden subdivision ward six.

Thank you Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vunich.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair and members of the commission, as I started the presentation relating to the last item, this particular discussion is not relative to the plat itself or the 16 lots. This is again focused only on whether there would be 16 individual household treatment systems or a single plant. from the perspective of the department in terms of equity relative to the decision-making process of the city regarding this matter if there is a discussion with Mr. Whan relative to solutions to the concerns of the department rel regarding the plant versus treatment systems. a two-week postponement in this matter may be um justified. So as we're treating both parties relative to the request and the similarities, Mr. Whan is 15 home sites on 51 acres. Lombardo is 16 on 58. So again from the perspective of the department if there's research that's available from Lombardo homes way custom homes that would lead to the best recommendation from the department and the best action of the commission a twoe postponement here may be again justified

just on a technicality the paper says 55 and you said 58 pardon me going from memory and that's always risky okay so it's 55 55 Commissioner HR.

Uh, so I respect that that you that you say equity, but to me they're not equitable. They're two to totally different properties, two totally different lands uh areas, and I I don't think that they are that they are the same, that they should both be considered the same. I think they're very different uh land. And and so I I don't think that that that they are the same and they should both be postponed

certainly and the commission has complete authority in this regard. the department is, you know, we may have two types of different apples, but they appear to be apples to the department, so to speak.

But this one looks Well, first of all, this property we've had in discussion of uh it backing up against that creek and it being uh flooding all the time and uh I think that it's a completely different animal. And I I would um my vote would be that we accept the the uh department's recommendation of not allowing individual and that's that's my recommendation. My vote is to my motion. There you go. I got it out. Sorry. To accept this the planning motion. Is there a second on the motion?

Recommendation. I didn't quite get to that yet, but so just a couple of things. First, obviously the department is acutely aware of the flood plane component associated with the unnamed tributary. From the perspective of the department, if you look at the preliminary development plan, preliminary plat, you will see that they've moved the home sites as close to Highway T as possible, meaning the 50-foot setback from that proposed private street that would parallel it. I will also tell you that in past experience, agricultural land is generally good land for wastewater treatment. So a high content of clay on Christy Road versus soil that's been tilled for corn and other agricultural products. There's a distinct difference in the quality of the soil relative to its potential. It's counterbalanced by the fact that we have a tributary that flows from east to west. So from route 100 into residential areas we have flood plane and for all intents and purposes as was described when you look at the preliminary plat you can see that there are drainage areas that finger into the proposed lots and from directional standpoint from highway T north to south. So there it's a watery environment which is again the primary reason that the department decided one plant protected from the flood plane in the common ground area is preferable than

again 16 on the edge of the flood plane and near other drainage tributaries. So the department again in this instance is recommending the waiver not be supported by the planning and zoning commission and I made a motion to support that. Um so um I haven't seen a second yet.

Yeah. All right. Second by Councilman Marshall. Um, so I guess my question is where where are the he where does the creek start? Um, like does it does it start before like p on past 100 or from the review of aerial photography? This particular unnamed tributary starts on the east side of Route 100, but this property is near its headarters. Okay?

And so the amount of flow in the creek, I'm not saying during severe storms, is generally not substantial like a lot of our tributaries and creek, but again, as you can see, there is a defined tributary and there is defined flood plane associated with it. Mhm. And that's always a consideration in any recommendation, right?

And how so what do we know what the what the most of how much of this land has ever been in inundated? I guess like do do we have I don't have historical photography, but if Mr. to hard. He's lived across the street for so many years. He may have photographs that he'd be willing to provide so he can make that determination.

What the department will do as part of the preliminary plan will always depend on the Department of Public Works, which has reviewed the preliminary plan to ensure that the flood plane regulations of the federal government are met. And we do that because if we don't follow those regulations, federal flood insurance is at risk and we can't have that happen. Mayor Garano.

Yeah. Uh Joe, I have a couple of questions here. I know the question before the commission tonight is pertains to the uh sewage. Uh but I guess you know they're not they they were never seeking a reszoning of this land because it meets the qualific meets the criteria for non- urban correct as it is. So the 3acre lot rule is met and therefore they don't have to seek a reszoning basically.

Yes. the the three acre minimums are provided. As I note and report, the majority of lots are around 3 acres, but they are over 3 acres or 3 acres and there are a couple that are larger obviously and they the larger lots appear to be where the drainage fingers come from te to the south. And that shaded area that you're showing on the screen, is that the area that is prone to flooding or is that can you explain that a little bit? is the the the the area to the south of the preliminary plat. Those are topographic lines and when the steeper the slope, the more topographic lines there are and the darker the image becomes. So from the creek south, that's a steep hill that rises up to eventual ridge. And so that's an area that the developer does not intend to disturb at all. In fact, if you look at the tree preservation information, their intent is not to remove any trees. It's for the most part a zero loss scenario. They intend to develop in the in the agricultural area where trees have been voided already.

So basically everything that's shaded isn't going to be is the preservation area. That's the intent. at least if it's not shown, it will be um by the time we get to the preliminary plat. So those springs, the drainage, the cover pipes that come from across Highway T, those will all be areas that'll be protected under either the natural resource protection standards, flood plane regulations of the city, or the tree preservation and restoration code. questions. How much authority does the city have over homeowners associations?

Very limited. And that's intentional. They have private restrictions. Private restrictions are often more um restrictive than the city's regulations. And so some of their restrictions we can enforce because they set minimum square footages for homes which have been um have been argued in courts and they have been determined to be discriminatory when cities do them.

Private restrictions. So we kind of stay out of it for the most part. If a homeowners association is saddled with the obligation to take care of a septic system and they choose not to or they don't have the funds, the city is handcuffed in intervening in that. Correct.

Well, for example, if we were to create a resol like in the case of West Eden, we establish a set of requirements treatment levels tertiary the highest the escrow then that went your recommendation on the waiver goes to city council. City council if it approves the waiver does it by resolution and as part of the resolution we make sure that those commitments are law so to speak and so yes we can enforce those and the plumbing code St. those county city of Wildwood treatment systems fail, we can enforce that because it's a public health hazard. So if if a septic system were to fail and it's not being addressed and it's a public health system, are can we or do we allow people to live in that condition or do we have any authority to to make them move out until it's corrected or

we have not vacated anyone from their home? I suspect we won't. Um, what we try to do is identify the problem, bring the resources to the problem for the homeowner, and have it repaired or replaced. And we've done that quite a bit over the course of 30 years. Commissioner Hick. So, when I made my my uh motion, it was to support your the planning department's decision

uh to only allow a single uh septic system for the entire neighborhood. And as I go back through these notes, it says that it is part of it is designated non-urban residence district and some is designated flood plane. And um we have since this is this particular property and actually even before this property was on I think even back when we talked about the Amaran Tower across the road last year we have had residents come in here and state that this area has flooded that the types of rains that we get now are not percolating rains sometimes they're swift and massive and um so once again I think that the city is spot on with this particular property stating to have one system that you said was going to be situated in a place where it was protected from all that.

So, our regulations don't address the 500year flood plane. Few few cities, I don't know of any that do. Maybe Mr. Brown, our director of public works, does. from a 100year flood plane. We require the low sill, so to speak, that low opening to be 2 feet above the 2 ft of freeboard above that 100year elevation. We've used that across the board for 30 years and we've never had an issue. That 2 feet doesn't sound like much, but it makes a world of difference. So, okay. So, I I stick with my emotion. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vich. Can I Mayor Kano?

Yeah, just uh I'm thinking back of when we've had issues with flooding and I think back on Route 109 by Old State. If I recall, the Radcliffe subdivision, they have a facility pursuage and Hamilton Creek is right by there. We've had a flood over 109 right by Old State. Has that been [clears throat] impacted by the flooding?

It has. In fact, the system has been flooded or inundated multiple times, which means the waste water from that 100 plus residential subdivision isn't being traded. It's treated. It's being discharged into the flood waters and carried downstream. Now, there's a great amount of volume in association with those flood water flood waters which helps dilute it. But certainly, yes. But that plant was placed there under St. Louis County regulation. So you're saying then because it was placed under St. Louis, it's going to be different with this instance here.

I can I will tell you one thing. If Mr. Brown does anything, he takes very seriously our flood plane regulations and the requirements from the Federal Emergency Management Agency. And we sweat these because the responsible party at the end isn't the developer. It isn't the homeowner. They're going to come back to the city and say, "You approved this and I'm I'm I'm being flooded. What went wrong?" And we don't want that to happen. Yeah. Go ahead. Are you requesting an extension earlier? Well, would you like one?

I don't know if I like one. I just think if there is information that can be developed from the other proposal that would be beneficial to this and help make a better decision for us all, then I think that's worth a postponement for two weeks. However, the motion on the floor and the department won't argue that motion because its report says no to the waiver.

Yeah. I mean, I don't think unless there's um an opinion by the petitioner that they would like to get a chance at getting a decision tonight. Um being that our meeting is later than usual due to the holiday. Um then I I think what two weeks out from the next planning zoning commission. I mean always for more data so that we can uh make the best decision possible. So, if there's [snorts] no objection, I I would be okay with doing that so we can get that data. So, Mr. Mayor, are you making a motion to postpone the February meeting? Um, were you making one already or were you

I just asked the question, but I'm supporting what you're Yeah. So, um and then uh yeah, then that would be uh that would be fine. I mean, you started off by it. That's why I feel like if we're doing that, we might as well do it for both. And in Commissioner Jackson second. All right. All those in favor of postponing, say I. I. I. I. I think I need four. Yeah. Well, for a motion to postpone, you don't need six. It's the majority seated. So, we actually probably need to do a roll call to That's fair.

That we get the folks on Zoom to participate.

Okay. All right. Go ahead. So, my question, Mr. is the soil problem with the clay is definitely one that we need more information on but other than the fact that in your recommendation there is no clay issues here so it's totally different and I mean if if you think the postpone's right it just seems to me that you guys put a lot of work and it's a totally different issue so that that's the only reason I just

I will tell you probably on that steep slope there's a lot of clay and rock but From the perspective of the department and being in areas of wildwood where there is agriculture, usually the soils are free of a lot of the rock and clay and they're more silt and lom and they're they can handle wastewater treatment better than the others. Great. Thanks. That was

all right. So, um, Mr. I was just going to add in with the roll after before we do the roll call vote that the Department of Public Works could take a look. We do have the uh 5-year flood uh flood plane maps integrated into our GIS software and we could take a look at the property and do a preliminary evaluation prior to this vote that would come up in February. So, just something our public works department could do at the direction of um the commission here tonight to provide a little bit more data.

Yeah. To follow up on that, Mr. ly. Um I know we've had a few pretty intense rains the last few years. So you have a guideline of what's been inundated with some of those rains then. Is that what you're saying?

In that location, not so much. Um but we do have u the 5-year flood plane that can be overlaid with any property within the city of W. We take what FEMA provides to us and then we overlay that into a a GIS database. So it's an interactive mapping tool. We layer that in and then we can analyze this specific parcel to see where in the flood plane it lies and then give you guys direct information on per FEMA's recommendation what we would think would be the outcome after evaluation of whether where on this property is it in the is it in the 100year flood plan is the 500 and what portions of the property are part of the uh the recommendation.

Okay. So you're saying 500y year rather than five year the 5. Yeah, the 500y year floods it we have they give us fiveyear uh out to show what would be they update it each time for 500 100 um all the way up to 500 years. Gotcha. All right. Thank you.

You're welcome. Well, if we're going to pull data and it's going to be postponed, then will you will you as the city reach out to the people that live around that area that have been talking about this area for the past year and a half and ask them um what they have observed with this property and the flooding in the creek so that we have actual data as opposed to something that is an overlay and a making sense? It's certainly a firsthand experience versus an engineered model, right? I certainly would reach out to Mr. Deart. As I say, he's lived across the street. His family's owned the property, so he may have the best experience.

Yeah, certainly those folks downstream. Yes. I don't I'm trying to find her name. She she mentioned it. She was pretty [clears throat] Henson with KSDK. Actually, we can and Mr. Boston all the I remember them from the last stop talking about the the creek flood waters and stuff. So I mean if you're going to gather information I would I would respectfully request that you speak to the people in the area who actually observe the actual

the department will do its best but remember we're a small department and we have a lot to do over the next couple of weeks. You're part of it as part of the master plan couple of meetings things like that. So, we will do our best to engage the surrounding neighbors. Can't guarantee we'll get all, but we'll try to get as many as possible. All right. Thanks. That's all I can ask. All right. Um, with that, uh, let's do a roll call vote on the postponement. Commissioner Hry, no. Commissioner Deppler, yes. Commissioner Dler votes yes. Commissioner Jackson, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Chair Batty, yes.

Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Geritano, thank you. Motion is postponed. All right. Um, next on the agenda, PZ28-21, Mr. Brunich.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. A recommendation report of the site plan subcommittee of the planning and zoning commission regarding the site development plan SDP and related items for PZ28-21 Ashley Grove Cypress Real Estate LLC care of Daniel Stegman 16100 Swingley Ridge Road Sweet 210 Chesterfield Missouri 63017 a 5acre parial of ground that is located on the east side of West Avenue south of its intersection with Manchester Chester Road, R3 10,000T resident district with a planned residential development overlay district, PRD. Street address 2623 Center Avenue, St. Louis County Locator number 24V 4200032. approved use. A total of 11 new single family dwellings along with the retention of the existing residents thereby tw totaling 12 units with all being on individual lots of record and including street improvements, common ground and required public space areas. This particular property is located in Ward 8.

Thank you, Mr. Vanch. Mr. Newberry.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission. Before you tonight is a recommendation from the site plan subcommittee uh regarding the matter that was just read into the record. Um again this is a new subdivision on a 5acre parcel in town center for 11 new homes with the retention of a an existing home. Uh the property recently went through a reszoning process as well as the establishment of a plan residential development overlay district or PRD um to accommodate the new home sites. Just to highlight a few of the major characteristics of the of the development um as depicted on the site development plan. The current pond on the property is planned to be dewatered and removed to accommodate the new home sites. Um the new public street is in an east west east orientation bisects the site. It does provide vehicular connectivity to both center avenue and west avenue which was an action of the planning or excuse me of the city council with the approval of the zoning change and the overlay district. Um each dwelling will have side entry garages uh to accommodate appropriate parking ratios for the dwellings. Um there's also parking allowed on the south side of the street. It's restricted on the north side of the public street. Um and then with the elevation or with the orientations of the garages, the petitioner did provide elevations of the homes as requested. Um and that was included as part of the packet. Um the storm water management is through a series of inlets and pipes uh leading to a basin that's in the northwest corner of the site. Uh around that basin is part of the public space which is a a trail um that that goes around the basin as well as the public space uh has an extension of the trail on the south boundary of the site all the way to West Avenue. And lastly, the landscape plan provides the required 20- foot planting buffer along the entire southern boundary of the site as well as um plantings on two individual lots that provide screening between the new homes and the existing dwellings. The site

plan subcommittee um met on December 1st, 2025 and with at its conclusion directed the department to prepare a favorable recommendation regarding the site development plan package and the related materials. Um the rationale for the recommendation are outlined in the report, but they know compliance with the town center plan. Um the site specific governing ordinance, the city's zoning and subdivision regulations. Uh overall, the new subdivision will be um engaging, desirable, and a high quality addition to this part of town center and Wildwood as a whole. And just before concluding the presentation, the department would want to note that there were a few items noted in the report that are forthcoming. Um that being the uh completed light lighting plan um as well as some additional information regarding the streetscape components specifically the street um signs um that weren't provided but will be um required conditionally upon the approval of this site development plan. So with that the department's presenting a favorable recommendation from the site plan subcommittee um for the Ashley Grove sub uh subdivision. Thank you. All right.

Thank you Mr. Newberry. Um discussion or a motion commissioner. All right, I'll second. All right. Motion by Commissioner Helffrey, second by Commissioner Rubis. Any discussion? All right, seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Deppler, yes. Commissioner Deppler votes yes. Commissioner Jackson, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Hoffrey, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. And Mayor Gano, thank you.

Motion carries. Thank you. Yes, sir.

Yeah. Step, if you don't mind just uh casting your vote again. You weren't on our video on It's my fault. Yes.

Thank you. All right. And then let's see here. Next, um Mr. Newberry, this recommendation report on Hollow Hills. Recommendation report of the department of planning to the planning and zoning commission regarding the preliminary plat Hollow Estates subdivision that has been submitted to the city of Wildwood for consideration and action on a large lot single family subdivision that is being proposed upon an approximately 31 acre attract of land located on the northwest corner of Pond Road and State Road 100 Street addresses 1855 and 1871 Pond Road and 205 Linda Jane Lane. St. English county locationator numbers 23W61101 23W6110110 and 23W5200086. The property has a zoning district designation of the NU non-urban residence district. Proposed use a total of eight lots are planned as part of this residential subdivision along with storm water management improvements, public space items, and infrastructure additions for access purposes. Ward one.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vinnich.

Mr. Chair, thank you again, Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission department has prepared for your consideration tonight a recommendation regarding the preliminary plan and all related items associated with it. Those related items include the landscape plan and other information relating to the site. The site, as Mr. Newberry identified, is located on the northwest corner of Pond Road, Route 100. It's 31 acres in size and the intent by the developers to develop it with eight 3 acre or greater sized lots. The lot layout is now depicted on your screens and behind you on the wall. The eight lots will be served by a single culdeac street that will be built to the city's rural roadway standards and meet Metro West Fire Protection District request relative to street width. I mentioned that because the rural roadway standards only require a 20 foot width, but as the fire district has requested a minimum of 26 ft, which will require restrictive parking on both sides. That is a departure from our rural roadway standards, but understandable relative to concerns about uh response times during emergencies that may occur at any of the eight lots. There are two distinctive features associated with the property. There is a tributary that parallels Pond Road that is near the front portion of the property that near Pond Road and then there is a substantial and wide ridge that defines what I would consider the westernmost portion. As you can see, the majority of the homes are located in that ridge area and two are located to the east of the tributary. In reviewing the preliminary plat, the

department notes that compliance is achieved in terms of lot size, lot configurations, compliance to the natural resource protection standards as well as the tree preservation and restoration code. I would note that it is a large lot single family subdivision with 3 acre or greater sized lots consistent with the pattern in its vicinity. In fact, many of the properties in its vicinity are larger than 3 acres. But again, this is consistent with the underlying zoning district designation, which is the uh non- urban resident district. In reviewing this particular item, the department did note the road situation, the increase with associated with it. But the department would note also that the developer is providing storm water management facilities to address the extent of site disturbance and imperous surface. The department would also note that the petitioner is providing a generous dedication of public space that is highlighted on the image by the dashed red line. That area is approximately 1 acre in size and will parallel what the department hopes will be a future multipleuse trail that will begin at Community Park and head west at least to State Route T Route 100 and Milrose Road to provide eventual access to Rockwood's reservation very much in the future, but we're building a piece at a time. Two items the department would want to emphasize is that the petitioner is proposing to remove 15 grand trees under the formula that was approved by the planning and zoning commission when the code was changed. The petitioner is proposing to replace those at the rate that's required. So

125 trees must be planted and that is what is being proposed. actually 126 per the count of the on the landscape legend. And finally, there is a in the opinion of the department a substantial amount of grading for eight lots on 31 acres. I would emphasize to the developer as well as to the commission. Ultimately, the approval is based upon the minimum amount of lot disturbance necessary to accommodate the building permit. So rest assured, we'll be analyzing each of these eight lots to minimize what you see. But what you see does meet the requirements of our grading code, those minimum standards. But we think and I believe Mr. Hill believes he can do better once he starts selling the unit, the homes to the buyers and the customization process concludes. So tonight, you have a favorable recommendation regarding this eight lot subdivision on a 31 acre parcel ground in the non- urban residential area of the city of Bloodwood. If there are any questions regarding the department's recommendation or the items included in the packet of information, we'd be glad to try to answer them at this time. Thank you. All right.

Thank you, Mr. Vinnich. Um discussion or a motion? Motion by Commissioner Hellfrey. I'll make a motion to approve. All right. Second by Commissioner Rubis. All right. Any further discussion. Thank you again. All right. See, seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Jackson, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Hilfrey, yes. Commissioner Deppler, yes. Commissioner Deppler votes yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. And Mayor Garano, thank you.

Motion carries. Thank you. All right, that looks like we've made it to the end. Motion to adjourn. [laughter] All right. Motion by Commissioner Jackson, second by Commissioner Hellfrey. All those in favor say I. I. I. Yes. Any opposed? We're adjourned. Thank you everyone. Thank you for your help tonight.