P&z meeting - Regular Meeting

No. OK. Ah, he returns.

I know. Disappointing, but I have returned.

I'm doing my focus tomorrow. Yeah, that's right. I'm surprised we got a thunderstorm this afternoon.

That's on the calendar. That's the problem. Well, yeah, but Gabby will make sure it's on there every year. Yeah. The issue they got is they still haven't updated the website.

Yeah, right. But, you know. All right.

Hey, Gabby, did we hear from Mike or no or nothing? Okay.

Yeah.

Meeting must be bad for the mayor.

No, but I was like the M&Ms.

Okay, we ready? Regular scheduled meeting planning commission called to order. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. Please be seated. Is there anybody here in the audience that wishes to bring anything before the commission that is not on the stated agenda? I see none. Okay. Nothing will be added to the agenda. Nothing will be removed. The next item is to appoint the chairperson. Is there a recommendation? Anybody?

I'll appoint you as chairperson.

I second that nomination.

Second, thirded.

Without objection, I will serve as chairperson again. I apologize for the last meeting where I thought I'd been fired, but they rehired me. Vice chair. Who would we like to have as vice chair?

I'd like to nominate Kelly Valente.

I will second that nomination.

I'll accept the nomination.

Well, that is good. Is there no other nomination? Then Kelly is the vice chair.

All right.

All right, prepare yourself. All right, good enough.

You're giving me a lot of time as vice, right?

No, no.

The vice term.

What is it?

How long is the vice term?

One year. It's one year until you take over as chairperson. So thank you for that.

I thought it was going to be a five-year term. Wait, I got to go back to it.

You have in your packet April 22nd. Minutes. Is there a motion to approve? So moved.

Second.

Motion is second. Question on a motion. All those in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Opposed? So carried. Public hearing to consider discuss the possible vote on the following application, preliminary category B site plan, Kays Enterprises. You have that in your packet, and I will turn it over now. You're up. Good evening. And you got a jacket this time.

I got a jacket. No tie. Is that okay? I'll keep the jacket. It's summer. It's summertime.

You're good. I appreciate that. A little frosting.

Yeah. Well, good evening Mr. chair, welcome back and thank you to the members of the commission. My name is for the record. My name is James Taylor for Vantas presenting on behalf of the town for this application K enterprises, which is a category B site plan application in your packet is the planning report. Which includes the public hearing notices that was done in the dollar state news in the town at the town hall, April 29th, 2026. Post on the property May 1st, 2026, and then mail. To the property owner and a budding property owners on April 29th. 2026. The project site is located at. Along North main street, the official address, it is key to note that it is not actually touching North main street, but that's the address. That is there the applicant is requesting approval to develop a self storage facility consisting of 19 warehouse buildings, totally approximately. 39,000 square foot on a 5.78 acre parcel. In front of you, this is the subject property shown here. It is within the commercial corridor and is adjacent to an existing storage facility under the same ownership. You can see that the large linear buildings to the right of the identified parcel. This slide highlights environmental conditions on and around the site, including the floodplain and surrounding features. The plan generally avoids the impacted areas with development located outside the MAP floodplain. I just wanted to be clear on that. This slide shows street views. They're not going to be that great because the parcel is far away from the street itself, but you can see views from North Main Street. It's at the very backside of this, as well as views from South DuPont Boulevard, as well as from the shopping center. The proposed self-storage use is permitted by right, consistent with the Town Council's 2025 rezoning of the property for this specific purpose. And this is the zoning slide here, the zoning map. As mentioned, the applicant is proposing to develop 19 storage buildings along with internal drive aisles and site circulation improvements. This is the plan itself. This shows the overall plan. site layout and building configuration. Verdant has completed a technical review of the submission on behalf of the town. The project generally aligns with zoning requirements. However, there are several key items identified in the report that need to be addressed. The primary item is access. Property does not have a direct frontage on a public street. We expect that this is going to be accessed through the adjacent property on East Glenwood Avenue. However, this arrangement has not been formally documented or fully detailed. additional items include compliance with the water protection requirements which will require environmental impact assessment landscape plan parking layout lighting plan if applicable and confirmation of the setbacks are also required overall this application can move forward with these items addressed and any approval should be conditioned upon the disinformation. There are items identified through all this of things that are needed to complete the full review, as well as department coordination, traffic considerations. Those are all discussed on page six of that report. At this time, I'm available for any questions of the planning kitchen. Is any questions questions?

Yes. So, yeah, Mr. Chairman. But so main street or Glenwood Avenue, neither ones really describes.

Correct. That's correct.

So I think for the clarity and the record, we ought to say that the access will be through the rear of the existing property developed, right?

We believe that will be the case, but I don't believe it's been documented on the plan.

It's not on the plan. That's why I'm asking you.

Yes. For the record, and I think the applicant can probably speak to that tonight. I mean, the closest access for that property is off of the DuPont

Highway correct?

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

Because it hasn't got anything to do with Glenwood Avenue remains.

It does not wonder else. Correct. And that's why I wanted to make sure in the, in the notice that it was clear that there's no access from.

And so then the next question is just. And I didn't see a delineation of the floodplain, or did I miss it? But this is entirely, the developed area is entirely out of the floodplain, right? That is correct. Okay.

There's no impact to the floodplain.

Let me put it another way.

Is this parcel out of the floodplain? The parcel does have parts in the floodplain, mostly because it goes all the way to Duck Creek. So Duck Creek itself is a floodplain. Oh, yeah, right. So...

Yeah, again, it's not real clear, at least the drawing I looked at. So the property line there, I don't know how the property lines are laid out. Does that property line go to the high watermark or to the center line or where?

Do you know? It is not descriptive of that. I don't believe it goes to the high water mark. I think it's just, I mean, I know the town owned that parcel. If you go back a couple of slides, it shows it. Oh, it does? That's the GIS. I'm on the paper. Just to be clear, that map here, and you can kind of see, is that the best one?

Actually, I think the one before, a couple back, where it showed the floodplain.

Yeah, there was one.

This one here. So you had the flood zone. Correct. So, so that, and this is the, the, the multi-year and the high water. Yeah. The high flood.

Yeah. So the, the pink. So the property, the property line actually probably originally went to the center line of the.

Okay. I believe what's what's shown on the plan currently is the tie line between the two points. Yeah. Right.

Oh, is that right? Okay. Yep. I mean, you know, I mean, what's happened here, when you look at maps like this, the meandering of the creek has changed over the last hundred years. So property lines are different, you know, than they would have been a hundred years ago. All right. That's all I have. Thanks.

I just have a quick comment. I know you're working with the county for stormwater, but has anything brought up of hazardous material spillage?

You're saying in the future use?

Well, no, because you don't know what's in the storage. There's no monitoring of what goes in each storage thing. Is there a a barrier to prevent hazardous materials from going into Duck Creek.

Yes, so there is requirements in the code of what can be stored in a storage unit. I believe that hazardous chemicals cannot be stored in those storage units by code definition. I would say that there is not necessarily anything currently that shows that demonstrates protection of the creek, but there's probably something. Right, I would say all those items could be addressed during the next stage of the process.

Okay. Yeah, I know the town doesn't necessarily have, but I just sort of want to bring up that point.

Yeah. Mr. Chairman, along that same line, and maybe this is a question later for the, well, I guess it is relative to the code. How about the on-site storage of vehicles like RVs or motorhomes, that sort of thing?

To my knowledge, there was nothing delineated on the planned state where those types of things would go.

Are they permitted by the code for this?

I believe they are permitted.

Because that raises some of the same issues about transmission fluid and yada, yada, yada.

Any other questions? Just a minute.

I guess my concern, even though it's outside of the flood zone, is that it could still be impacted by the changing levels of sea level rise that we expect to see in the area. So that could be a concern as well. I'd like to see, you know, in any landscape plan that's submitted, I know they have to, I think that's in the recommendations to submit one to deal with like the parking medians and things like that. Like whether you're leaving some of that, like the lower land, like wetlands and trees and things like that alone to absorb that flood as it comes in and out with future storms. Is that something that we need to worry about and how much spacing there is between your buildings? Because I could just see like the feet of the sites getting a little wet in the future, but. You know, maybe it's just something that's abated if you have the trees that are still there in place or something to absorb that.

Yeah, I think that's also a, that's a rental's concern.

Yeah, you don't want your stuff to get wet.

Okay. Looking at, from my standpoint, I've First off, just as we have to do occasionally, I, in my previous time, did rent from the existing facility, though I no longer do. So I just want to let you know that I've had some dealings. In the report, It said the applicant shall submit Category B site plan, which addresses the comments above, and a response letter detailing how the items have been addressed. I don't have a letter. So I'm a little hard-pressed from my standpoint to there's a lot of things that were addressed in the report that apparently need to be addressed. I mean, and I will say that, you know, I look forward to hearing the applicants. But, you know, we have quite a few of these come across our table where at least I know where the entrance is. I know whether the lanes are wide enough. I understand whether they're going to have to ask for a variance for trees or shrubbery. There's a lot of things that are here that would be left up to who?

So that would be if there's the specific items, so the specific items that are required by code are reviewed by the town of Verdantus. Right. And so if there's specific items that need to be further addressed or items that are discussed tonight that need to be included on those plans, we would be making sure that those get sent to the applicant to include as part of the plan review process.

Okay. I think I understand, and, you know, you're – at your second meeting here, so.

Yeah, and just to be clear, you're talking about the letter that was sent with the comments. Right. And that's very, you know, we do that with all the items.

I understand that, but normally by the time the staff report comes back, they have addressed it in some manner, you know, about, I mean, because I guess If you haven't heard anything, I guess that's going to be part of my questions in regards to is there going to have to be a waiver for the parking? Is there going to have to be a waiver for the ADA? Is there going to have to be any type of consideration given to the drive aisles? Where is the location? I don't do well when There's this many openings there that could be by code, but we have no input on it. I mean, in reality, we're not going to be able to say this is where the entrance has got to go, or should be, or where we would like to see it. And then somebody's going to come before this commission and go, how do you let that happen? Who authorized that? Well... Um, so, I mean, I, I just, I, I believe that, that it could be answered. I don't think they're that far off. I mean, you know, there's some things like a fire hydrant has got to be put out in there somewhere, you know, um, you know, but there's other items like, you know, clarify if there's going to be dumpster. Well, if there's going to be a dumpster, then a dumpster has to be screened. It has to be screened. It has to be screened by masonry, you know, um, those type of things. And, um, I'm not trying to throw anything up. It's just it kind of confused me when I read the report. And then I said, well, it must be in this. And it wasn't, you know, the answers.

Correct. So the letter was sent to the applicant on, was it May 21st?

Yeah. May 21st.

May 21st. Yeah. Which is last Thursday.

Yeah. So they had Friday. Exactly. I'm just kidding. Exactly.

So, I mean, you know, hopefully the applicant can respond.

But I'm just kind of getting the applicant prepared that this is going to be the direction, you know, because I don't want to hold anything up, but I don't also want to be in a position that...

There's a driveway popping out onto 13 or there's an entrance step across from the school.

You know, or, you know, they're going to have to come back. And I kind of say this to you, James, is... You know, they've got to come back for their parking waiver. They've got to come back for – they've got to go to Board of Adjustment for – Setback adjustments. Setback adjustments for trees or whatever, you know. So usually on category B, we would be doing what this evening? Approving it?

Yeah, approving with conditions.

And then it doesn't even go anywhere, does it? I mean, as far as like going to council. No, it does not go anywhere. That's what I'm saying. On this one, we are it, right? Okay.

All right. So I want clarification on that. So we're the stopgap on this? And we don't even know where the entrances are? Or we don't know if we need to make a decision on anything? This is just a blank square?

Well, yes. Hold on a second. I think those two over there at the moment are looking at something to see if I've done something dumb, okay? Don't let me know in a minute, all right? So... Are we good?

I was just going to see if you needed a traffic impact assessment with my Dell.buddies. I don't know if that was in the letter to them, but it was on the staff report here.

Right. Yep. Traffic impact study most likely will not be required because of the amount of, like, you're not talking about.

I was just like, I think that would be really easy if they need that. Yes. There's not much.

You have more traffic going to Goodwill.

Right.

On the back side.

It's like a loop. You go from the storage to Goodwill.

Okay, yeah, there you go. There you go. Barrett, are we right on the Category B? We're verifying, but yeah. Yeah, okay. All right, so I guess as they're looking this up and we go from this portion of it, there is a items that were asked to be addressed, and I think that's the direction that I'd like to see us attempt to go this season. And I don't think it'll be that difficult, but I do believe that I guess my concern would be that if we were to, and I'm saying an if, if we were to approve this right now, they're still going to have to come back because I bet you they're going to need a waiver. And there's no application for a waiver. I'm just letting you know, sometimes at this stage, the applicant would have been aware that they're going to say, oh, we don't need eight parking places. We only need one because our drive lanes will be wide enough for you to park and unload and then leave. So you need a waiver. We would have done that this evening because I've always found it very humorous. Before we even approve a project, we give a waiver, which is almost like saying, you're going to approve it.

Right, right. You know, but, okay. Yeah, I mean, to just add on to that just real quick, you do have the final decision-making authority to approve approving conditions denied or table the preliminary site plan application, you know, as you choose. Again, if you decide to approve or approve with conditions and then something has to change, they'd be coming back.

Sure, okay. So, yeah. All right, and from that standpoint, I like, we have a historically, which doesn't mean it's right. But we usually are able to take action at these meetings. We're not Sussex County that puts it off for two months as a... Never mind. I need to get myself in trouble. All right. So that being said, applicant, who is the one that's going to have to stand up there and... That's better than saying a flip coin. All right. Okay. If you just give us your name, please.

Sure. My name is Julian Pellegrini. I'm the project engineer. Okay. I work with a pellet jet company located in Newark, Delaware. I think what I'm hearing, I can address your question one by one as we go, but I think just to start off, what I'm hearing is there's a misunderstanding on my end of the process for that. I apologize. All of your questions and concerns can be addressed here tonight. This project has been back and forth with the town of Smyrna for more than two years, this plan. It looked a little different two and a half years ago or so, but we worked with Mr. Jeremy Rothblatt at that time. We worked out all the cases. Where's the floodplain? Where's the wetlands? Where's all this stuff? And it was a much lower level submission than it came to be about a few months ago before Jeremy left. Before he left, he let us know we were going for a rezone. And I heard it called institutional recreational. It is rezone to highway commercial, just so you're aware. And so during that time, we then were told it was a Category B site plan. everywhere. I actually, you know, Michael asks me a lot of questions because he works in a lot of different areas I work in. I don't follow one singular code. So we talked with Jeremy on the requirements. I received a checklist for a Category B site plan and I hit all of those X's that apply for this site according to that checklist.

Yeah, I like the one where you put in do you really mean it or whatever that was. Oh, is it required? It was more polite on the landscaping.

I have a vegetable garden, but landscaping code makes my head spin. We usually ask. Anyway, so yes, landscaping will be a part of this, probably on the outskirts. I think that was one of your concerns. Absolutely, there'll be something around the buffer area between the floodplain and the impervious coverage. We have done our homework in terms of realizing this is in a groundwater recharge area. So there is probable asphalt that's proposed, or probable pavers, I should say, that would help mitigate that impervious coverage down to the maximum allowable by-curry. And this was all stuff we talked about with Jeremy. Now, the things I'm hearing tonight were issued on the comment letter that I just got about a week ago. So in my world, getting a comment letter back in about a week is difficult. I think this might be actually possible for some very large firms, but it is not possible in my world. And just more to that point, the comment letter asks for things like approval from the Kent Conservation District. I'm not getting that in a week. That's at least three or four months going back and forth. The great people over there, but the amount of stuff to get that submission package takes a very long time. So this comment letter, it sounds like it was supposed to be somewhat addressed before this meeting. And I apologize that it wasn't. It was not my understanding that it was supposed to. This was a preliminary hearing is what I was hearing when I spoke with Jerry. So if that's my understanding, please allow me to address whatever questions you have. The one that's coming to mind is two. There's one about a fire hydrant and then access to the site. Is it just a square? Where are we getting access from? Totally understand that. I had prepared a speech. James, thank you for stealing my thunder. It was a very comprehensive presentation done by James, but I did have mentioned in there that we are getting access from 280 East Glenwood Avenue. That's the site to the east. Mr. Kayes owns that property as well, and we're going to do that via cross-access easement. It's just a comment to get the cross-access easement is what you see on the public library. We're going to

Before you go, that is one question I forgot to ask that I meant to. There was a comment in there about the two properties being merged or something so that this new property 10 years from now isn't sold off and loses their access. To the site. Understood. You know, so what is that being addressed or is that something?

I don't think there's any desire to. We erased the property line between the two properties at this time, so it will be separate. The way it will get access is with a cross access user, and I should have put. call out or something on the plan to make that more apparent. Again, this was in my mind more of a preliminary concept. Hey, here's what we're doing type of process. So yes, there will be a cross-access between the two properties to gain access. Regarding the fire hydrant comment, I did request the contact information for the town fire chief. I'm not sure who that is, but I would like to set up a meeting with them to discuss where he wants that to go. If it meets the code, is that just a standard comment? Things like that. He also needs to have his input on the layout. There's a fire apparatus that we're going to get around here. That then is a nice segue into someone's comment about drive aisle widths. We do have decent widths around the property. There's probably an average of 25 feet on The perimeter 34 on the east side and in between the buildings, we have 25 feet. The smallest areas down the back is 22 feet wide. Given the fire code, fire lanes are not required to this property. However, we know that fires could happen. I'm trying to remember all of the comments, but what I can say is at this point in the land development process, before that's asked more questions, we have spoken with KCD about getting those plans together. We have the comment letter of them for Dantas that we are currently addressing. And we're also trying to get that meeting with the fire marshal to get this wrapped up. Yes, that's what I wanted to say when I came up here, but I'm more than happy to address what other concerns you have.

I thank you for that, and you are correct. We understand and have for a while, getting approvals from the fire marshal's office or getting approvals from Kent Conservation or whatever, That's always in our motions that your approval is contingent on you getting those approvals. It was just some of the others that I think you, you know, if everybody can feel well about it, and I don't want to steal any of my members' thunder here, but, you know, when I look at this Jay, I would have to ask right off the top of my head. Verify note 10 is written. What was that?

So note 10 on the plan states. Water in the entire property contains sassafras standing loam soil. So that's not really the water. That's more the soil information. So I think we were asking just by that type of thing.

Okay. Number four in your report, and I would ask it, will you be looking for a waiver of the off-street parking?

We just discussed this outside, and no, there will be, you can see the open bathing area towards the north.

Eight spaces. So you'll have the eight spaces in there. Okay, thank you. At cross access, you answered that as far as what would be taking care of that, and I appreciate that. And the entire parcels in the groundwater recharge area, I where is that being addressed or how will that be addressed?

So the entire parcel is in the groundwater recharge area for the code. You can only have 50% of the site's acreage covered in impervious coverage. If you look at the plant, try to scale that with your eyes, you'll see that we have more than 50% impervious coverage. So we'll be doing that. That's where I mentioned the permeable drains, the paved drains. So they're like interlocking pavers that you drive over. You've probably seen them and don't know, you know, I don't really know what it is, but they provide a gap in the paving that allows stormwater to just be sucked right through. It's a stone reservoir underneath. That's going to be our stormwater facility. You can see it. You don't have a legend on the plan that's going to be there, but it is noted on the plan that we submitted as the permeable system.

Oh, is that that checkered line that runs? It is. Okay.

And it will be larger as we move along. We were going back and forth with Jeremy and Mr. Kayes as far as cost effectiveness of the pavers, but ultimately we need to meet, we'll say the black area needs to, and the buildings need to be 50% of the site acreage, which is somewhere around 2%. acres. And that's what that will equal. And the permeable pavers will be in excess of that, but they're permeable. So they don't count as impervious per the town of Smyrna's curve, the way that it was described to me by Mr. Rothwell. I know that's not true in all areas, but I believe that's the way the town of Smyrna views that.

Okay.

Mr. Chair, if I may. Yes, please. So again, this is very similar to the application that we heard last month with the permeable pavers and trying to meet the source water. So it is a different application. overlay, but the requirements are still the same. And it sounds like, if you're talking about it correctly, that you're looking at using that for not just to meet the percentage, but also as your stormwater facility. I would say that is the one difference currently, just because you can look at the two things, and we had the whole conversation last month. um, that will get looked at by KCD as well as, uh, the town to make sure it meets.

And you feel comfortable with, with that.

So I think we, I think with that, we're going to need to make sure that it's actually going to infiltrate into the ground, uh, because, um, with it being that close to water, um, it, may not uh you know that water table may be high and so that will all have to be verified as part of the stormwater plans that get submitted but uh there is an eia report that's required um to be submitted okay okay and again if they don't meet that they would have to come back for some type of mr chairman yeah mr pellegrino i think raises a good question i think what we've got here is a problem with scheduling

Everybody's in a hurry to get projects done. I understand that. Time is money. But his point is a good one. Somehow this was not timed correctly. Because in my opinion, when we get to this hearing, he and his clients should have had time to respond in writing. And what we should be doing here is clarifying any final bits and pieces that were somehow still in dispute. So that's why I think you're a little confused because what we've got here is a problem, not enough time allocated to the client and his engineer to complete the work prior to coming to the hearing. And what that means, in my experience, what you do is you look at the meeting date and you start going backwards and ask yourself, When do I have to hear from the client about this? So that by the time I get to this period, I've got the time to do this. And they've got the time to answer me before the 27th of May. And apparently that's not what happened here. And that's why we're in the uncomfortable position with you of trying to verbally resolve things that we should have already seen you had a chance to think about and respond to. And document. And document. That's the problem we've got now. And it doesn't include things like Kent Conservation District. You're correct. Those things take longer. It's not us. But somehow you weren't put on notice soon enough to get to this point and have everything done so that you look like you're ready to go, right? So I can blame James? No, no, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just laying out a scenario about how everybody avoids this situation in the future. So we learn... We learn from things. So as it worked out quite right. Mr.

Chair, if I may, as a point of clarification. So you're right. The schedule is very tight. The deadline is the same day that we have the meeting. And then the reports are due out in three weeks for this week's meeting. And TAC doesn't get held until the Tuesday. Yeah, it was last Tuesday, correct? The Tuesday before the meeting. So we have... We have two weeks, really, to review, to have it ready for TAC, and then get the letters out. That depends on when he started. What do you mean? Well, I don't know.

I don't know when they were ready to move forward.

He could have been ready in January, for all I know.

I think one of the things we've got here is... Mike, I agree with you, and that was what I was alluding to, but that's a conversation that we can have outside of this hearing, but here... in regards to because of the change over here. Because I believe that what we're saying from our standpoint is better communication, if Mr. Rothwell had been here, and I'm not putting it on him, may have led to this coming up in June or something like that. So what we're attempting to do here this evening is rather than just put this off, I was hoping that we would at least be able to proceed forward with this, if we can, because it's a storage unit. Now, there's some questions, but it's a storage unit. I mean, it's not a subdivision with 300 houses. Now, I don't want to minimize it, but, you know, if we can't come to that. But, Mike, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I'm just trying to let him know it's not his fault, right? Oh, he is from Newark. Yeah. So, you know. But Kelly, you raised your hand. What do you got?

Oh, I was just going to follow up on the stormwater discussion that we were having before we went in a different way. So to get back to that, I think when we talked about the site last month, we were trying to verify if the town has a way to monitor that the infiltration is happening into the future, like if there's information or you know, like our public works is able to go out and do that kind of thing. So we know that it's functioning and like, it might be set up well first day, but as it gets like, you know, debris in it or whatever. Right. Exactly. Like all of a sudden there's ponding. I'm like, why did that happen? You know?

Yeah. So the state does have requirements related to operations and maintenance. Each facility is required to be inspected. I believe it's at least annually. It may be twice a year in some situations. Who does the inspection? DENREC? JCP. So KCD will come and check the conservation district, will make sure it's operating correctly. This is where I talked about usually there is some type of observation port in those where you have a cap that you're able to open up and see is water actually going down into the ground or is it just staying there? And that's the easy way to determine whether it's functioning. And does it have a film on top? Right, yeah, exactly.

And then if it doesn't work, is there recourse that the town can take?

So if it doesn't work, and I think we need to talk to KCD because realistically, if these are items that are meeting the source water protection areas, we need to be copied on those inspection reports to make sure that things are actively okay.

The property owner is fined or is given... The same way when you – any other violence.

So the way that the – at least my experience is with KCD is they don't fine you right off the bat. They say, hey, this is an issue. Fix it. And then from there, it doesn't happen. But again, I think having the town as part of that correspondence when those are done would be an important piece of this. Okay. All right, thank you.

May I interject to get clarification? I think you mentioned it earlier, James, the stormwater system proposes pay drain. In order to receive, we'll call it credit, to get us through 50% of the purpose, we absolutely have to be infiltrating. We can't use 48-hour detention.

I wouldn't consider 48-hour detention as a porous surface.

Sure. Okay. So that's what I wanted to clarify.

Yeah. I mean, it has to be truly porous. It can't hold. Okay. If it's holding, then it's not acting as a porous facility.

Does that still hold a minimum one-inch infiltration rate, or can it be a lot less like you wouldn't accept existing?

I think it would need to be analyzed and submitted first. for what it needs to be. I mean, if it's a stormwater facility and it's gonna infiltrate, it needs to meet the requirements for infiltration.

Okay, good to know. That might change some folks, so thank you.

All right. Yeah, your biggest problem there is gonna be water table, depth water tables. Be interesting.

Lighting locations, I understand we're gonna put it on the building.

going to be on the building and recently learned that there will be a few light poles around the perimeter of the fence and the pervious coverage that you see. So we're going to put together a lighting plan for that as well.

OK. A question on the dimension of the setbacks and the buffers. What are we – I think from the plan, because it doesn't show there what the distance is, are we within? Do you know, James, about – The setbacks are shown in the plan.

The problem is they coincide with the fence line. Yeah. So that's always a struggle for me. But they are shown, and the buildings are within them. Okay. There's a building outside of the setback line.

Okay. And part of that, just following through on the buffer side, or the – landscaping, that would be something that has to be done, you know, to screen the property from, I guess, the IR area and there is some residential, I'm not sure.

Yeah, the properties to the south are three.

Yeah, okay, so that would have to be screened. Let's see. Indicate no utilities are proposed for the site other than the necessary electric for the lights and the poles.

The water for the fire hydrant.

Yeah, but nothing else there. Dumpsters.

So, you know, this is one of the questions I have for these people who write the comment letters. The owner doesn't have a real need for one.

I would highly recommend you not put dumpsters.

What does the code call for? I don't believe the code requires dumpsters for the shoes. I think it was more we were clarifying.

No, that's fine. I think it's a fair question because if they were to say, yes, we'd love to have a dumpster, my first question would have been why? And then the next question would have been how are you screening it? All right. Provide a truck turning diagram to verify that – Not only the fire trucks, but moving vehicles that would be dropping stuff off to make sure that they can make the necessary turns.

Like dumpsters.

Yeah. So I assume that that would be in the final.

Yeah, we will provide a separate turning diagram.

And I can tell you from the standpoint of the fire chief standpoint, that will be one of his interests. about being able to get his apparatus at least around there. OK. You're going to reach out to the fire chief. That's Mike O'Neill, and you guys can give him information. Provide the finished floor elevation for each storage building.

Yeah, I think that lines and grades these days.

Yeah, that's always an interesting comment. I know it's a requirement to say that, but at this stage, it's hard to tell what's going to be the finished floor, so I would just be guessing. That's why it's not on there. The finished floor, it is dependent on so many different variables that you really have to wait until you get to the submission of KCD to start grading a lot, and then you have upcuts and fills. Sometimes there's sewer lines and all kinds of things that affect the finished floor. So I can guarantee it's not going to be sky high. We're going to try to keep it as flat as we can.

It won't be on stilts. We talked about that. I apologize for jumping. I guess the other one is the landscaping plan. It's one of these things that historically is a frustration to me, has nothing to do with you. I can't blame it on you that we always get into a tree debate about how many trees are required on this site. And I guess from my standpoint, have we looked at that or they haven't submitted anything So they may have to come back to us to get a variance for that. That's correct. Okay. All right.

Can I ask a question?

Yeah.

That lot, it's about five acres, and we're told that we have 2.9 acres of usables. That's two-plus acres of non-usable, which is all trees. And it is, for the most part, surrounding. because they're also, I don't understand why we- Count your trees, just count them. I'm sorry.

Count them. The question is on, no, no, no, you are absolutely right. But it goes back to the initial, what Mr. McGrath was saying. Normally, that's already answered. It would have said, the landscaping plan would have said, you have to have, I'll say 100 trees. And you would have come back and said, I've got 300 trees. Already on site. So it's a done deal, right? Right now, I know you've got trees out there, but I don't know if it meets the landscaping plan because I don't have that in front of me. I don't know what the landscaping plan is. And, you know, so if I feel like I'm asking a question that is illogical, it really probably is. However, that's not how we normally operate. And that's, you know, as you were saying, and you've been put in a bad spot, right? But that said, if we've got everything on tape, Gabby, and we feel comfortable that staff can make sure that all of these things are covered, then you have the ability to approve it upon the conditions that are outlined and have been discussed here this evening. And which I think we've pretty well, I've attempted to go through and just saying, no, we don't need a waiver for this. Yes. We're going to put this on our site plan. Yes. We're going to do this, right? Yes. We're going to meet with Kent confirmation. Yeah. We're going to do all that kind of stuff. Um, it's not quite the way we normally do business, but you know, I, I don't see, um, if we don't, then we're going to be coming back here again and possibly again. Um, and I can, no, I can't assure you. I don't know James Taylor that well, but I'll bet you there'll not be another one come this way. It might be put off for another month. Let me tell you something, a little sidebar here that nobody's going to listen to, which Gabby hit the tape. Nobody's going to hear me. If you have to put them out on another month, go ahead.

So I don't believe that the code allows for that. I believe the decision has to be made by planning commission.

On what?

On whether they, if they make the request to be on the application and they've submitted the items that have been submitted, which they have submitted them, and we have comments, it's technically up to the Planning Commission. According to the procedure, it goes TAC and then Planning Commission. The Planning Commission decides whether it should be tabled or can be approved or whatever else. At least that's the way that I'm reading the code right now is that we don't have the ability to say if they have submitted the items that are required. And even though if we have comments, it's not up to us to say whether they can come to the commission or not.

Well, then you just answered a question on what's going on here tonight.

I mean, and Jason, I think.

You know, from my standpoint, I understand what you're saying. I wasn't trying to put it on you, but what I was saying was, that they didn't answer the questions. Correct. And no one contacted the commission to ask us if we wanted it on the agenda, whether it was ready. I mean, I thought I was trying to give a polite way here. And what I'm hearing is, no, there isn't a polite way. And from my standpoint, I looked at it from an applicant was trying to bring something before us in which we had a staff changeover. Mr. Taylor, you guys are trying to do what you do in the best interest. Your report was very well done. And I just, like I said, when I received it, I just went to it and I said, okay, where's the answers? And you've answered why there isn't any answers, you know. I mean, that you didn't get it until the 21st or whatever that was. And, you know, I don't understand. It's another conversation. I don't understand TACC. holding us up. You mean the town employees were holding us up? Don't answer that. Do not put yourself in that position. Okay? So let me ask this question. What is the feeling of my fellow commissioners?

If we're the stopgap, in other words, there's no approval past us, I can't in good conscience vote yes on this.

Well, at this level, though, we have to understand what this review is about, right? We're not approving the final plan as yet. Correct?

Yeah, this is not the final plan. This is the preliminary plan that you're approving to allow them to continue.

Mr. Chairman, I mean, given all the difficulties that have been outlined, it sounds like the applicant is prepared to deal with those issues. And my feeling is we can move ahead with this. It's just a tale that needs to be told that in the future, these kinds of meetings where everything's sort of up in the air and everybody's talking back and forth, is not the best way to handle these things, right?

It brings back to what my argument used to be with Mr. Rothwell, was we approve this based on what we talked about this evening. They bring the final plan back, and we go, oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what we want. And they go, wait a minute now. I just spent a whole ton of money doing what you guys told me to do, now you're going to say no well there's an avenue to go to wherever they take us you know so i understand i just expected you know normally there would only be two or three questions that would have and and it more so um comes up in subdivisions where where do you want the dog park you know How many swing sets should they be? You know, those kind of conversations, not- Or questions about the trees. Yeah. Or questions about the trees.

Okay. I'm prepared to make a motion to proceed, whatever the proper terminology is from our attorney.

Yeah, so I think that- I don't think that this has gone like completely atypical here, right? I mean, you know, this is generally kind of how it works, right? We get comments out and at this meeting, you know, we kind of have a little bit back and forth of these are our comments and the engineer will say, yeah, we're good with those. And then we'll say, okay, we approve it subject to them being good with those. Now you need to put them to paper. And then our staff is going to make sure that everything you just said you're going to do You actually did. Right. And then, you know, so, you know, I think that we're more or less in line with.

I think I think you're right. But again, we're talking about scheduling here. I saw this yesterday at lunchtime.

But I think your comment to say there's a there's another group that's going to say. Do you have this?

Do you have this? Do you have this? So right now we can entertain a motion to approve this Category B site plan subject to the conditions that have been outlined in the staff report by Verdantas. And so then what will happen, assuming someone wants to make that motion, is that then we'll get plans back and then Verdantas will go through and say, you did everything? Nope, you didn't go back and forth until they're comfortable that everything's been met. That's what I was looking for. But it won't come back here. It won't necessarily, unless for dentists see something that they think is problematic and they say, you know what, I don't think this is in line with the planning commission. Unless there's something still on the list. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I mean, these are check-the-box approvals, right? The trees. They're just making sure that, you know, there's going to be a tree plan, vegetative plan that meets all the requirements, has a number of trees and everything. So, yeah.

Okay.

So, we have a motion. Is there a second?

Second. All right. We have a motion and a second. Did you kick her to make her say second?

I just want to make sure that the motion includes that all of the... Yeah, he did.

Everything that was on the report will be addressed.

Just as a point of clarification, verdantists would not have authority to deviate from what's in the code.

No, not what's in the code. That's true.

Invariances, waivers, whatever it is. So all they have authority to do is basically ensure that their plan is going to meet exactly what's in the code. So they've identified what they think are the deficiencies. We'll go through and do that. If they identify something that's not in that, they would still have authority to be like, sorry, we missed this. You still have to do it because we don't have authority to waive it. Right, exactly.

The only thing about that is the fact that the entrance is not coded. The fire hydrant location is not actually coded. You know, those type of things. And those are the recommendations. And those are the recommendations that are included in there.

Yep.

Any questions? No questions. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Wow. Wow.

It passed.

Okay. So thank you. See you all. Submit the nice plans. Have a good trip back above those armed bridge in the high rent district.

And when you run out of stuff.

All right.

I want to stop.

You got you all can gently depart. What I was trying to say, Barrett, and I just... Have a good night. So did I. Have a good night, guys. Take care. What I was trying to say was, I was not trying to say that anybody did anything wrong or didn't do anything wrong, but this is the first plan of, and it could be just because of them, that we had this many exceptions. I've approved a category... A, where are we going through? See, I don't like this exercise, but that's fine. It's what's in the code. I don't like it. I have a concern about it. I consider that at some time down the road, we could get ourselves into trouble. The comments made by three of us sitting here makes it look like we supported something, right? That when we ask for a change, and then when it comes back, It doesn't pass. Something has changed. But that said, this is the process. All I'm saying, James, is if we could narrow it down, I would have felt more comfortable to say to this guy, hey, You're not close, right? We'll see you in June, right? Okay? Because this isn't going to fly. I agree. So, no, you don't have to agree with me. You're stuck with me for five more years. You're not going to be here five years.

Oh, yeah. Okay. You're going to be there? I might sit out there. This hasn't been a storage bin? 100% agree. So, since we're talking about procedure, I do agree with you that this procedure is not great. Right, we have the deadline the night, the same night as the planning and zoning commission. It's the same for board of adjustments of the previous month. In 3 weeks, we need to prepare the staff report. We need to make sure that review the plan, review the plan, prepare the staff report, hold the tack meeting. And then that 4th week is is the meeting itself. realistically very tight it's a very tight schedule and and is that typical i mean we don't want to hold things up each body is different right each body that reviews is different and if if it's the the wish of the uh the commission that or if it's your wish that you guys want us to to make the determination as is is this acceptable to get to you um then that's something we can talk about with staff to check to see if that's what we want to start doing.

So, Mr. Chairman, let me respond to that. Because I was the one that was aggravating about the schedule. There's schedules in the law and the ordinance, right? And then there's schedules that make sense to the owners of properties that are coming before any board, and they want to get their project approved, right? That's their aim. That's what they want to have happen. That engineer doesn't want to have to come back here again. He doesn't want to have to, you know, charge for another 20 hours of work for, you know, And so my advice is that when you've got somebody that's walking in right before some ordinance deadline, you say, Jim, I don't think this is going to fly on this short a deadline. Do you want to go ahead with it right anyway, or do you want to wait until next month? Then the owner can tell you, no, let's wait until next month. Right? Because most of the time, if you're up against a deadline like that and you're going to face a board like this that's got 500 questions that haven't been answered, you're likely to be wasting your time. This guy got off easy tonight because it was a storage shed and not a 400-unit subdivision. Because I'll tell you, if it had been a 400-unit subdivision, this would not have flown tonight. It would have been next month anyway.

Gabby, what's the, it's 10, is it 15 days for posting for this? Yeah, there you go. So basically we have to post 15. So we're basically posting. Right. Within two days, like by that Friday, we have to have it posted. So that's why, you know, that's...

I understand all that. Look, I worked for a planning department for eight years. I understand all that stuff. But sometimes you've got to work with the owners and the board to understand, yeah, but... We don't have this.

You don't have this. You don't have this project.

It ain't going to work. Right. I would ask the question. What you're saying is that our agenda has to be posted 15 days before our meeting.

No, the public hearing notices, like in the newspaper posted on the property. Yeah. Right. Right. We're just seven days out for the agenda.

Yeah. For the agenda. Yeah. So. In all seriousness, I mean, if. In your pipeline is going to be some large category A subdivisions. That we get to pass on to council, but still we have to send a recommendation. I would hate to see another evening like this, right? And I would ask the question, rather than try to beat it around here, I would ask Barrett and James, and if you want to get a hold of Jason, whatever, and, you know, and Gabby be a part of it, too, to have to make sure all the paperwork's put together and all that kind of stuff. What is a reasonable timeline? Now, I will say that that does not give the water department an extra week to sit on their answer. No, no, no. I'm just saying that if we... I just know people, in a way. And there has to be probably people intact that if you said you need it Friday at 9 o'clock, they're walking in at 9 o'clock with whatever they're getting ready to tag you.

Yeah, I think that's the part of the schedule we're not talking about pulling with, right? It's on the back end where we need more time to make interaction with the applicants.

But I'm just saying, whatever, look at the entire thing. Because the way I read TAC when I've read it, it not only goes to TAC first, because that gives a couple civilians an opportunity to tell people what's coming to Smyrna that's not really coming. And then it comes, there's a report made, and it comes here, but then it goes back to TAC for another comment, right? If we come up with something, They get a chance to look at it again. I mean, they're really spending, and I understand it. The electric department ought to be looking at it. The water and sewer department needs to be looking at it. The police need to be looking at certain things or whatever this may be. So I don't care where they fall in the hours. I'm just saying I would be more comfortable of saying to somebody like this, you're not ready. You are not ready. You haven't answered a question. And they go, well, we didn't get it from you until the 21st. That's fine. We will postpone the meeting until the next. Now, you're saying I don't want that responsibility, but I wouldn't have a problem with coming in here and your recommendation being to put it out.

So with that, the piece that I If Gabby has to post by the day that we have to get it out there, tabling it, we have a lot of, we might have a lot of these that just aren't ready. So the solution to that is really to back up that submission date a couple weeks. So we'll discuss it with staff internally and make the change.

And let me just take the chairman's comments a little bit further. I'm a strong believer in charting things out. I love charts. Imagine you do too. And you start with a hearing date. and you start working backwards, including all those people that are late with all their reports. And my recommendation is be honest with what you can conform people to do, right? If the electric department never answers things within four days, then don't put four days in there, put six days in there, right? And then back it up and then see where you wind up on the backend. And from my standpoint, I understand it was a national holiday this week, okay? Well, no, but I mean, nobody was doing anything that day, mostly, except McDonald's. So, but I would like to say from this date, five business days prior, we should be receiving the information. I mean, I'm a pretty quick study, but some of the – now, not this project. This project is, you know, dead simple, okay, except for water table and floodplain and inundation maps and, you know, 15 other things like that, which I'm still – I was just looking online. I still want to take a look at those inundation maps because I'm guessing the 50-year plan, I'd be interested in what its final floor plan level is for those buildings.

Yep.

And I'd want to be above that 50-year inundation map if I was building it, but that's me. The other part, anyway, we need four or five business days in that chart. I mean, we're volunteers. These people got jobs. I don't. But it takes a couple of days to look at some of these big projects. Some of them get, not this one, some of these projects get pretty complicated. You know, and we're not looking at them until the last four days before we walk in here. So put some of that in there. And by the way, somebody asked the question, do we know whether these two parcels are going to be in the same form of title and why they're not resubdividing them into a single parcel? Why would you want to own this parcel with developed buildings on it in a separate deed? Why would you want to do that, Barrett?

Because you're going to sell it off later on. But how? How do you get to it? So if you get a cross-access easement on there that's perpetual, right? Yeah, okay. It's going to run with the land and you'll have permanent access to it. And then if at some point you want to sell off the back or the front, you still have your access preserved.

So like somebody would take down the buildings on the front one and turn it into a hotel and then... Or just I want to operate...

I want to operate half of it and I'm going to sell the other half off to someone else to operate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I understand why they're doing it. I mean, I used to run a business and that doesn't sound smart to me, but, you know, OK. Listen, I see homes all the time that are set back and I'm like, there's got to be an access easement to get to that house. It's legal. It's permanent. But it doesn't make me super comfortable. I don't want to have that big house.

I've been involved in a few neighbor disputes over those easements. Absolutely. They don't look pretty when you get into court.

I agree. Got a house for sale on 13 right now. That's. See, we used to see these things.

I've seen these things with farmers. I'll just give an example and then I'll shut up. But it used to be 150 years ago when you bought a property, you got 10 or 15 acres in the back where you cut firewood. They're all over Delaware. You check to see how the easement disputes go over those kind of properties that are 500 feet off a road and then back in the middle of the woods. It doesn't work out usually. I joke all the time.

I'm like, you can get this property as long as you have a helicopter because that's the only way to get to it. Yeah, no kidding. Exactly.

Well, I thought they were going to use a boat for this one. I think it'll be interesting to see how the questions are answered.

My grandmother lived on a woodlot in the middle of an intersection. Yeah.

But anyway, back to my original point, James. The reason I think all this is good, it's not just to make us happy. The clients coming in here with paying engineers don't want to have to regurgitate things three or four times, right? So it's a lot better for everybody if you just go through once.

We'll discuss with staff. I know the process, the procedure has not changed in the – I don't know how many years we've been doing this for the town, but that has not changed on our side. So, again, I'm always a proponent of making things better if they need to be made better, and we'll discuss it with town staff.

Trees are good on this site, too. I'll keep it dry. I guess from the standpoint of that when you look at this and timeline and what will work or what won't work, um i will say that i understand what mike is saying the you know if we're able to get this on a friday to give us the weekend plus yeah three days to look at it works for i understand i understand bad hair day i realize that but i'm just saying you know Only you, the only thing from that standpoint, Gabby, is then you had a holiday sitting on it. And the other one was, and this couldn't have been, if it was a month ago, it wouldn't have affected anything. It's when we opened up this packet and started reading it, you go, wow. And now I'm going to, I wasn't going to say this, but I'm going to say it. I have no zoning book to look at for all the comments in there in regards to what the code calls for. You don't want it because it's woefully out of date anyways. That's why.

I've been told that I can't keep track at all. I've gone back and forth with Corey and submitted things to Unicode. That's part of it, but they have not been keeping up with the updates. Every six months or year, I go through and I say, these are all the ones that have... There's ones that we've amended like this hasn't been included and it's since been amended even and the amendment has like right so barry aren't there companies that codify these things you have a company that's a damn deal with them unicode is our company okay and we've been going back and forth with them and i'm not really on that that's more of a staff thing they're the ones that are haggling with them I'm just the one that I'm like, pay them and they do it. Right. I mean, it sounds so simple, doesn't it? It does to me. Right. And I agree with you. It should be, which is why I'm constantly baffled as I'm looking at this. I'm like, this does not make any sense. I'm like, wait a second. I swear that we change this. And then I got to go through. I'm like, how does anyone follow this? I'm like the attorney with the files in my office. And it's struggled. Well, it has been. And I know that it is not Gabby and it's not.

It goes back to people before. It's just one of the ones that I started harping on. The reason is it's over a year ago we had an issue that came up that I was reading what was being done. Wasn't involving you at all, James. You guys were lucky, right? And I, you know, so I go into the online code and I started reading it. I went, whoa, this is nothing. Nope. Right? So I made a comment to... the staff person here, who said, okay, I'll give you the copy of the code. You know, the updated one. They gave it to me. I rode all the way out there and picked it up, you know, wish Blue Earl had been open. I'd have gone drinking there. And I get home with it and I go, this isn't right. We just updated this A couple months before. And I'm going, how is anybody doing their job?

So in fairness, it's tough to keep it updated. But I'll give an excuse for like a couple months behind. Not like 18 months behind. Like that should have long since been updated, right?

You're exactly right, Barrett. And look, there's good legal reasons why that should happen, right? No kidding. Because you're putting applicants at a disadvantage, too. The people that want to develop in this town. you know, where do they find out what the rules are? You're absolutely right.

So, Gabby, I would suggest stay with our Friday.

It's not raining.

And, you know, and, okay, check the weather on Wednesday. If it's going to rain on Friday, get it done Thursday.

You have it electronically? Like, this all comes electronic, too, right?

Yeah, that was on Friday. Yeah, we have it electronically. It's going to be an email on Friday, right?

I don't know. Everybody has to choose opening emails. Okay. What?

What do you mean to have problems opening an email?

I guess the files are too big. You guys also said you guys didn't want anything really.

Okay, well, look. You can revisit that. Do you have a cloud service like Google Drive or Dropbox or any of those things that the town utilizes?

I don't know.

Yeah, so what you do is you put the file up there, and all you got to do is send us a link, right? It doesn't have to be in the e-mail.

Send us your personal e-mails. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's how I get emails.

I think, unfortunately, in the conversation that we had, the question that came up about the emails was talking back and forth.

Yeah, right. Just sending a link to these documents is completely harmless.

It's like sending our agenda, right? Yeah.

So I like hard copies. I would still want it on Friday or rainy Monday. If we could get the agenda and staff report, we wouldn't get the plans. I mean, we wouldn't get it to be printed off, but I would find it. And with the town, I mean, it would make sense that they would be using Teams or Dropbox or something that would allow us to access it easily. Gabby, I understand exactly what you're saying in regards to our personal emails. I didn't realize that the town of Smyrna, you're not in the position to have to answer it. cost so much to have accounts. I didn't know that. If I'd known it, I probably wouldn't have brought it up. But I will say, whether we do it or not, I mean, we don't communicate, meaning the commissioners. We don't talk to each other. You know, yeah, which is good, you know, but I think and I don't and I don't want to make it sound bad. I didn't communicate with Mr. Rockwell. I didn't communicate with Gabby. I don't, you know, unless they asked me, you know, hey, we got nothing for the agenda. Can we cancel the meeting? Yeah, you know, and usually it's, I've already talked to Barrett, and Barrett says it's okay. And so we just go from there. Now, if you want to look into see if a Dropbox, because that would make it easier. Or Teams, yeah. Or Teams or whatever's out there that would, and I'm not saying.

Maybe it's something that you can't comment on, like we just look at it. You know, it's not editable, you know, one way.

That's right, you can make it that way. You can put a file up there so it can't be edited.

Yeah, we're not sharing thoughts already.

You can't change the agenda. You can't do all that kind of stuff. I understand. But, you know, if it would make it simpler for staff to be able to get that information out when there is an issue, it just makes sense. And then the hard copies can be delivered on the Fridays, or if it happens like this, you get the hard copy on Tuesday. But you would have already received – the information on Friday. Right. Which I just think makes sense. Okay. Well, we have bashed that around.

Can I ask a question for you?

Yeah, please do.

So, trying to follow the conversation on the agenda setting. So does this, the applicants that we review come from staff, like how much, you know, how does the chair have to say, this is an incomplete application, hasn't met all the check boxes that we asked you to make.

None.

We're going to put it on the next month. So it just, staff says to agenda and we take their agenda.

Yeah, we have to take their agenda and, you know, um it is it staff has never reached out to me that hey what if we put this on the agenda no it's it's the only time staff has reached out to myself as chairman is is when they say there's nothing on the agenda we want to cancel the meeting right okay or you know um We'd like to have, there's nothing on the agenda. We'd like to have a workshop.

I think because these meetings are public and advertised as being public, it wouldn't necessarily be appropriate to communicate regarding the content of the meeting outside the public arena.

Right, right.

You know, so that's the reason I don't, you know, if we never talk to each other, I really don't, that doesn't bother me. And that's the same thing as with Gabby. And Gabby will probably say after tonight, if I got to talk to him again, you know, that's okay, Gabby. All right, hang in there, gout. Go back on the other side out there where you all hide from me. So I think from our standpoint, this evening was an interesting one. And in a rusty time.

Well, I think it shows the shortfalls of this category B if it's incomplete. Right. It makes our approval uncomfortable.

Yep. See, what this kind of thing is supposed to be, it's kind of like you used to have sometimes when you were in college, they'd have a pre-test.

Yes.

Right? This is kind of what the final is going to look like, right? And you had a chance to deal with that. But the problem is if you don't really have a chance to have the whole thing laid out in a way that you can work with it, then it doesn't help it. The whole idea is we're trying to help the client get to the final approval. without so much Trouble, right? That's the whole idea.

This was their preliminary for a preliminary. It was like, how many preliminaries do we have?

It was almost like they were going to go to tax.

Yeah, right.

And the idea was, not so much with a project like this, because it's not very complicated, but on some of these ones with lots of shifting subdivisions that have 400 or 500 units and different kinds of units and stuff, the whole idea was to eliminate having to do things over and over and over again, right? And that's why the client needs more time to get all the ducks in a row before they come walking into a buzzsaw.

I thank everybody for letting us have the opportunity to vent. I think the only thing that we really have out there is to look at the schedule and see how that's going to come back. And also to see if there's a method for Dropbox, which wouldn't have cost the town any money. And the other thing is Mr. McGrath brought up about having pre-tests and it brings back bad college families. That objection is meeting as adjourned.