City Council - Regular Meeting

All right. Good evening uh and welcome to tonight's council town hall. It's going to be meeting on the railroad quiet zones here in Calwell. We appreciate everyone being here and desire and your desire to weigh in on the policy before us in the city. This town hall that we're having tonight is to hear your input. To start out with, we ask that you please be respectful to those with differing views and listen quietly and be respectful to everyone else in the room. I would ask also that we refrain from clapping, cheering, booing, or other disruptive behaviors. I will warn those with the gavvel tap for those that are violation and obviously if the meeting were to get out of control we would call the meeting early um and then make an announcement from there. All we're asking is you please be respectful to all those speaking so council that have taken time out of their week because this is not a normal night for a council meeting can hear public comments on this matter. For those that are here, if you wish to speak, please write your name on the signin sheet. Is that still Oh, there have we collected that? Okay, it's still outside. So, please make sure you sign up if you haven't already. Each speaker will have three minutes to address the council. Your remaining time is shown on the clock behind us on the wall. And please keep your comments relevant to the issue. If you can avoid, please repeat comments made by others earlier. You can just simply agree, but you will have three minutes. The city clerk will announce when it's your time to wrap up uh your comments at that time. And tonight's session, just so everyone that isn't aware, will be from 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. And then we will have an additional 5:00 p.m. to 8 8:00 p.m. tomorrow, which is Friday. Um like I said, just please make sure we be respectful. We know this is a very hot topic in the city. Uh, first up, we're going to have a presentation by our

Caldwell, Deputy Director of Transportation, Bruce Mills. Would you please come up? Following that, we're going to have another presentation and then we'll get to the comment period.

Thank you. Good evening, mayor, council, citizens. Um, I'm Bruce Mills, deputy public works director, and uh, I'm going to keep my presentation short, so I know there's a lot of people that would like to speak. So, briefly, what is a quiet zone? Uh, it's it's an area where you select a number of crossings so that when the trains approach, they no longer blow their horns. However, the gates still will come down. The flashing lights still continue. The bells that you hear, the little ding ding ding, those all still occur. Um, so it's I guess it's not a totally quiet zone. How many of these exist? There are three of them currently in Idaho um kind of in the North Panhandle area and uh nationwide there are a little over a thousand of these at uh about 5700 with 5,700 crossings. So how to establish a quiet zone? It's it's kind of tedious. It's slow. Takes a lot of patience. Um you determine the size of your quiet zone. um you have to design um improvements that will mitigate the fact that if the horns are going away, what can you put in place that will keep the safety high for these crossings? And the Federal Railroad Administration, FRA, has very specific requirements that you have to fulfill when you're putting a quiet zone together. Um they bring out a a whole bunch of people. We had uh gosh must have been 10 12 people out here when we went through all the crossings. There were representatives from Union Pacific, their consultants, the FRA, ITD, lots of lot lots of acronyms, but anyway, a lot of people there when we did that. Uh then after that, you submit

a notice of intent along with plans to uh FRA and Union Pacific. They review all those plans. uh it's uh an if if you're still on track then you submit an application a formal application to FRA. Uh so all those check marks are things that have been done. So um we have received permission approval from the um FR federal railroad administration and Union Pacific to move forward with the project. So the project was bid and we did receive a very fortunate uh low bid for the project. After um if we move forward the contractor once they complete their work then the organizations would come out make sure everything was done according to plans and then uh we would submit a notice of establishment another roughly 3-week wait period and then the horns would stop. So, our history of the quiet zone, I don't know if it goes back further than this, but this is what I could find in the files. In 2014, we hired Horox Engineering to do a study on what it would take to put in a quiet zone. They looked at six crossings. They came up with a figure of 1.7 to$2.4 million to build these crossings. Um, I think given that sticker shock, it kind of went on the back burner. um in 2024 it was put back in the budget um to look at and uh that's actually when I came on board with the city and it was a task I was given to see can you get this thing moving see can you make it work um so um that's what I've been doing for the last oh year and a half two years I guess so uh the the proposed quiet zone in Caldwell is seven crossings all the way from Fifth Avenue to Eustic Road Uh 4th Avenue is actually

going to be closed off in the next few months. So that will no longer no longer actually be an active railroad crossing. There are about 17 trains per Union Pacific that pass through Caldwell each day. Uh roughly half in the uh daytime and half in the evening. So, uh, how do you mitigate if you're going to, you know, not blow the horns anymore, how do you keep things safe? So, there are different options that FRA has and so does Union Pacific in their in their policy manual. Uh, one is to put in concrete medians on the approaches that are ours would be uh 18 in wide, uh, 8 in high. What that does is it prevents people lined up from driving around the gates, which is the most common accident that occurs at uh railroad crossings is people driving around the gate. You also have to close off any driveways that are within 60 ft of the uh rear of the crossing arm. And then you have to install warning signs for both the vehicles, also for pedestrians. You have to make sure if you have any sidewalks that they're up to code and that they have detectable warning devices on them. Sorry, I don't want to get too geeky on it, but anyway. So, I know a big question for people is are quiet zones safe because if that horn sounds, you know, if it doesn't sound anymore, are they safe? So, uh, the federal FRA did a study in 2020, uh, of 330 quiet zones, roughly a third of the thousand that they have, and they looked at accidents before and after the quiet zone. And they actually found that there's very little difference that they could see before and after. And in fact, the quiet zones that are put in, like

the one that we have proposed in Caldwell, they actually saw a 42% reduction in accidents, mainly because of the medians preventing people from driving around the gates. Uh just to give you an idea, they FRA has a computer program that you have to put in all the information about historic accidents, uh the amount of traffic on the road, all these different factors go into this computer program and it tells you what the risk index is. So when I I did that, the risk risk index with horns, which is what we have today, was 28,000. putting in all the improvements that we're looking to do, the risk risk index actually goes down to 17,000. So quite a bit better. Um the other thing I want to point out is that even if a qua zone is established, the train horns can still sound, the engineers still have the ability if they see any dangerous situation ahead of them, animals, cars, people uh on the tracks to still uh blast their horns. And I've talked to a couple other cities and yes, they still do it occasionally when it when it's needed. Uh the benefits of a quiet zone, well, it will significantly reduce the noise to nearby residents and other people. Um those horns blow at about 110 dB. Uh that's the max, but it's it's a good blast if you're pretty near the tracks. Um, also with adding the mitigation features, it actually, I know it could be debated, but actually according to FRA, um, makes the crossing safer with the changes that we're proposing. So, the cost for a quiet zone, uh, many cities have spent tens of millions of dollars putting in quiet zones. Um, we are fortunate that the one that we proposed that's been approved and we got a really good good

price. It's the total cost will be about $238,000 for the seven crossings. As far as maintenance costs ongoing, there are no fees to Union Pacific um for the quiet zone and uh the maintenance will be very minimal because we're just maintaining the signs we put up and the concrete curbs. So, if this moves forward to implementation, it could be in place by as early as June, but it it it depends. Sometime this summer if if we move forward. So, what's next? From my understanding is after we have these workshops. At some point, the council will consider whether or not to award that construction contract to implement the quiet zone or or not to. And I don't know if mayor if you want uh me to answer any questions right now, but I'm happy to do that. Oh, I wanted to show you one other thing. Here's the plans for the quiet zone. It's kind of small, but like I just wanted to take Fifth Avenue from an aerial photo. Those yellow marks there are the proposed raised medians um for the quiet zone as they approach the railroad tracks. And with that, that concludes my presentation. Thank you, Bruce, for that. Um, council questions. Councelor Denver, I'll go first.

Mr. Mayor, Bruce, thanks for giving the presentation. I appreciate it. Can we go back to the checklist? I think it was slide number two or number three. Oh, you you've got the button. Yes. Okay. So, uh, as we're going down through this checklist here, items one through six were, uh, were completed successfully. Could you uh tell me a little bit about the timeline it took us to get us one through six? I mean, what what process went through? Is this a 30-day process or is each step represented by months worth of process?

Uh, some are quicker than others, but I I probably began this uh around April of 24. um and to come up with the first couple steps of determining uh you know what needs to be designed and put together that probably took maybe 3 months something like that. Uh then when you submit it then you're waiting each has at least a minimum 60-day period before they then send you review comments back and you have to change them and resubmit that type of thing. So so it's been it's been on and off. you you you do a certain amount of work to a certain step and then you step back and wait. Yeah.

I still have a couple more questions. So, with regards to uh item number three on your checklist, hold a diagnostic team meeting. So, you met with the Union Pacific Railroad, the Federal Railway Administration, and the Idaho Department of Transportation. Uh how would you um uh describe the demeanor of those meetings? Were they were they oh shoot another quiet zone meeting or were they yeah let's see what you have. How was the how did they receive uh you about coming out and meeting? Was it easy to schedule or was it difficult to schedule?

It it was a a one day actually we probably spent about five or six hours going around to each of the different crossings. Um I guess it was just average. which I wouldn't say that everybody was jumping up and down or anything, but the uh they were there to point out things they saw and make notes for every corner of every crossing. How are you going to handle this? What will you do with this? So, a lot of questions asked that way. Um, obviously they've been through it dozens of times. So, I don't think they're there to say no. They're there to say, "Well, if you're going to do it, you got to do it right. You got to do it per all of our requirements." And so, that was kind of the way it went. And when it was all done, we all took notes. Then we shared those notes back and forth after the meeting and compiled them into one consolidated set of notes. And that became the guideline and me making changes to my plans and resubmitting them.

Was there anything in those discussions with the uh with these three uh railroad groups around Idaho Department of Transportation? Did they have any sort of concerns that you thought were insurmountable? Did uh did they say crossings one and three are pretty good, but 5, seven, and nine are terrible. You can't do it. I mean, was there any concerns that they had that you had concerns about? No. No. Nothing like that. So, um uh then on to number five. You submitted the application to uh the uh Federal Railroad Administration and you received approval. So, how did that how did what did that approval look like? Was it a phone call? Hey, you're approved. Did you get something official? Is there something stamped and notorized?

Yeah, we we have a letter from FRA headquarters that came last August that says you are approved per these plans to move forward with a quiet zone. Did was it approval with any sort of conditions approval that it's only approved if you do this or if there's Yes, it's an approval that the plans that we submitted the the mitigation measures have to all be completed prior to implementing the quiet zone. So after your original submission, so you submitted your application, did they come back and say, "No, it's not quite good enough. Do some more work on it." or was it uh were you pretty thorough in your original submission?

I was pretty thorough, but they they did have some minor comments that I had to tweak and get back to them on. Yeah. And so you got a permission uh a written permission from the uh from the Federal Railroad Administration? Uh what sort of permits did you have to get from Union Pacific? They had to uh approve the plans that I submitted. So they went to their their engineers to go over the plans, make sure everything was in order. Okay. Is that a separate process completely? Meaning you submit it to FRA and they review it and then Union Pacific reviews it.

It's kind of both because when I submit the application to FRA, they distribute it to everyone obviously including Union Pacific Railroad and their consultants. They also submitted it to um you know the Idaho Transportation Department, uh the public utilities commission, a lot of different people received that and gosh there probably I had to do certified mail to maybe 15 different parties. So that's how that's how it was submitted um for the application. So Union Pacific had the opportunity and did send comments back based on that submitt. But then after all the submittals were received and any changes made, that's when FRA said, "Okay, here's your letter of approval. You can move forward." At that point, I I then took all the plans and the final comments and I resubmitted that to Union Pacific to their engineers and they went over all those plans and approved those and that's why I was able to then take put it out to bid last November, I believe. Yeah.

So, uh, at any time during the since you've submitted the application, uh, has there been anything from the, uh, Idaho Department of Transportation, the FRA, or the Union Pacific Railroad that says we've overlooked something or we or we forgot to tell you, or hey, just one more footnote to what we approved. No, sir. Okay. And so, um, so I've never seen the approval. I have no idea what the approval looks like. And there's some suggestions out there that we've just may have made up this approval in our mind. If if if there's really an approval, is that a a document that you can show us?

Yeah, I don't have I'm sorry. I did not bring it with me. I certainly can get it bring it tomorrow night to show you, email it to you all. It's a I believe about a three-page letter. It's signed by one of the executives from uh FRA in I believe Washington DC. Okay. So, does that have an expiration date? Does it say, you know, you're approved and if you don't get your quiet zones implemented by a certain day, it has to be re-evaluated or is there any sort of thing that would that would negate the approval?

Yeah, it it doesn't have any type of expiration like that on it. I would say that, you know, if it this thing was delayed, for instance, maybe years, then they may come out with new requirements and say this no longer applies, you have to go through the process again or through a portion of the process again. But there was nothing in the letter about that. Okay. All right. Thank you, Bruce. I appreciate your Thank you, Councelor Denber. Councelor Tilman. Yeah, Bruce, just real quick, two questions. I'm kind of the newbie, so I just wanted to make sure I'm following what you said. Sure. So, basically, this has gone through three consecutive years of approved budgets.

It has been earmarked approved. I know Ray Lynn's not here. I would have asked her, but it has gone through three years approved budgets and has been slated for at least the last three years. Correct.

Yes. When I came here in 2024, that fiscal year had $4.1 million in the budget, which was basically to do it all. I guess that they estimated I don't know where they got it from, but they probably looked at the 2014 2.4 four million and said we better put a a big factor on top of safety on that or something. So, so that was in the budget for I don't know that it was all in the budget. I'd have to go back. I'm not to be spent in 2024 if it was okay, this is design and then construction, but that's how much was put in there. In 2025, there was 60,000 put in because we, you know, when Union Pacific comes out and does all their, they don't do anything for free. So, so they're all the reviews, flying them out for the um the meeting that we had, those are all costs that were incurred. So, so that 60,000 was in there to go through the permitting process with uh FRA and everyone else. Um actually, originally in 24, I put an RFP out for engineers, but they came back at 172,000 just to do a portion of the checklist. And that's when it was decided that I guess you're going to learn the process, Bruce, which I did. In any event, in 2026, this current fiscal year, we put $400,000. That's what was approved in the budget last August.

Um, and again, the costs are coming in more much lower at about 238,000. Okay. And then one last question. Um, just because I saw it, we have already completed and paid for the Ustick interchange, correct? the Ustick crossing. Yes. The only thing left to do on Ustick crossing would be to install the warning signs. Okay. So, but basically it's 99% done. A as part of widening you stick to five lanes. Medians were put in and they were all done per um the approval of U FRA and Union Pacific.

Okay. That's all I want to know. which is probably one of the reasons why we didn't have to spend more money out there. Yeah. Thank you, Councelor Tilmont. Councelor Stodd. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh Bruce, on these the numbers, not the budget numbers, but the other numbers as far as safety and the number of trains, are they all uh FRA numbers? None of it city numbers or which how do we come up with the numbers? I guess like the number of trains that Yeah, they're all under their inventory forms that you can find on their website. Okay. And then what about the percentages for the safety? Is that FRA numbers, too? That that was a a study done by FRA. Okay. in 2020

when you had your meetings with all three of these entities you uh Union Pacific and uh the Federal Railroad Association ITD was there anything brought up about uh pedestrian safety relative to what's needed for all these crossings and what works what doesn't work those type of conversations um not really I mean uh as far as pedestrian safety goes there is no requirement in FRA requirements to to put in like pedestrian gates or different things like that. I see.

They just want to make sure that that they meet ADA for for any of the sidewalks that approach them and that you have to put in detectable warning devices which are the the yellow grid with the raised truncated domes. That's for uh people that are um you know that have sight problems uh um so that they can see or feel with a cane or whatever that oh I'm approaching something. I have to stop here and figure out what it is. That's that's on same same type of things that are on all of our ADA ramps on the corners, the sidewalks.

Okay. And at these crossings, were will there be any sidewalks or any type of uh pedestrian pathway for them to cross? Because if you look at the one down here on uh Fifth Street by the crearyy, I go past there probably every day and I always see people cross the railroad tracks. There's no sidewalks or anything. I just has anything been discussed about that?

We have not introduced new sidewalks and pathways as part of the project. We're only addressing the current ones which are on both sides of the road on Kimble and 9inth on the one side of the road on 12th sides of the road on 21st and of course now with um Ustick both sides of the road there. So, there are no pedestrian crossings right now on Fifth on um Lyndon. Is that it? I think I think that's it. Yeah, that'd be correct. There's none currently on Lyndon. Pardon? There's none currently on Lynon a pedestrian crossing, but the other intersections. Yes.

Yeah. Lyndon and Fifth do not have pedestrian facilities on them. Okay. So when you talk to these people, nothing was nothing was discussed about pedestrian safety. Because the reason I asked is because the majority of the emails I've received in the phone calls over the last two months or so have been concerns about pedestrian safety, not necessarily the vehicle safety because once the the medians are put in, I think that's going to solve mostly that problem instead unless somebody runs right through the gate. Yeah. Um the the pedestrian again, for whatever reason, they don't have requirements on pedestrian safety in the FRA. Um that doesn't mean those things couldn't be added in at a future date.

Some of the pictures I've saw from the Midwest and East, uh some of the folks that have positions like you have gotten very creative on how to solve that problem. And I don't know if you've seen some of those pictures. I I've I've seen some of them. Typically, um, if you're putting in a new facility, uh, pedestrian crossing on a railroad track, like the ones we have now are a bit grandfathered in, but if you're going to put in new ones, everything's got to be by Mini Pacific's book, which can mean that you have to put in extend the um, the concrete uh, the width and everything, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. The width has to go and and usually if you're extending those concrete panels, they make you replace all the existing panels at the same time. So,

it it it adds up. It's it's not cheap to to introduce new pedestrian facilities, but it can be done. Yeah. Um I I guess I would note um I was asked to look at the accidents that have occurred out there in the last 20 years, and I went back to 2000. There was one pedestrian accident at these crossings in that time. It was a transit person who um was racing the train across the tracks on 21st and dropped something after he made cleared the tracks, went back to get it and was I guess hit on the shoulder by the train or something spun around. So yeah, injured.

Well, the reason I ask is I've I have lost a couple of friends in train accidents, but it wasn't because of the proper safety uh equipment wasn't there. It was because they weren't paying attention. Yeah. Uh there weren't any gates there for them because they were on rural roads, but they just I mean and the interviews with the engineers, they they said they they pulled the horn and pulled the horn and they just didn't pay attention and that's why. So Okay. Thank you, Bruce. You're welcome. Thank you, Councelor Stoic. Councelor Register.

Yes. Just a couple of questions. Um, so one thing that you and I talked about was something that came up just kind of recently was that this project actually requires us losing about seven parking spaces downtown. Is that still the number?

That's correct. One of the things I h that we have to do is we have to close off any of the um uh driveways that are within 60 ft of the of the gate arms. So, we're closing off the access points um of the parking areas on Fifth, uh on Kimble, and on 9inth. And in doing that, that means that we will be rearranging the entrance points to the alleyways there to still allow people to go in and out of the parking lots. And when we do that, we have to lose, I think, one at Fifth, a couple at Kimble, three at 9, something like that. Adds up to seven parking spaces.

Okay. Yes. So, I know that doesn't seem like a ton. Um, but I was doing a little bit more research into that and according to um planning and zoning, we're looking at losing at least 65 more parking spaces due to development. And then with this seven, so 72 and that doesn't include another 40 if we close down Arthur and 7th someday and then the 75 that we already lost a so it's like 150 parking spaces or something like that total once all the development is done development is done. So, the reason I'm and you probably can't answer this, but the reason I'm looking at it is because we keep hearing about how this quiet zone is going to help commercial downtown, but I think that by continuing to take parking away, that makes it even harder for commercial more so than noise. So, that's why when we were talking about, you know, seven more parking spaces that to me it was like, well, how are we rectifying that, right? Um, now we talked a lot about your meeting with Union Pacific and um, all the other people that were there. Their website specifically says Union Pacific that they feel that quiet zones create a safety hazard to employees and people. So, did they ever like during any of these meetings because I've been trying to get a hold of somebody at Union Pacific to try to see if that's something that they still believe, if they have any kind of like reason why they feel that way. Um, did they say anything to you about how they qualify what's on their website versus the information that they're that whoever is giving that it's safer?

I'm sorry. Could you repeat that last bit? Well, we heard that um putting a quiet zone is safer than leaving it as is, but Union Pacific's website specifically says that they feel that it causes a safety issue for employees and drivers and people crossing. So, did they give any kind of inclination how they um can stand by that on their website and say that they feel like it's a safety issue, but then we have these numbers saying it's safer?

No. when we had our uh diagnostic team meeting and went around uh they didn't really express anything about you know opposition or that they basically they know that it's a process that's been gone through over a thousand times and so uh they they know that whoever is going to propose a qua zone has to meet not only all the federal railroad administration requirements but union Pacific actually has a public projects manual about yay thick that has a whole chapter on their requirements for the quiet zones So they they just want to make sure that if you're going to have one, you're going to meet all our requirements,

right? I just I'm having a hard time since they have that on their website where it specifically says that Union Pacific thinks this causes a safety issue. So I'm trying to rectify that. I wanted to talk to somebody at Union Pacific, but it's very hard to get a hold of somebody. It it is. I can verify that. Yeah. Um, now does this I know that the former bid that was more money included I believe the quad gates and the pedestrian gates. This bid that we have in front of us does not include the pedestrian gates. Correct. That's correct. Okay. And I think that we determined that the pedestrian gates would be somewhere like $200,000 per crossing

per crossing. two two to 300,000 per the se each se of the seven crossings probably to so over a million dollars. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Um to put in the pedestrian gates.

Um and I think part of the reason why I've been thinking about that is because of the you know there's been a story shared on social media about the girl that was crossing and heard the train you know the train went by and then um it was foggy. They didn't see her, she didn't see them. Um, and she went because there was no pedestrian gate and then got hit by the train. And I realize that accidents happen, but if that's why I was asking how many accidents have happened in the past 20 years or so if we've only had the one that you were talking about,

I worry about the potential of another, you know, just any kind of accident. Now, I also realize that the horns could blow or the I'm sorry, the trains can blow their horn if they see something, but there are a lot of times in Caldwell where it's very foggy and maybe they can't be seen. And to be perfectly honest, I went to the crossing and I waited for a train and I heard the train coming obviously um because we still have the horns. Um and there was a building so I couldn't see it but I could hear it coming. And by the time the uh arms went down and the dinging was going, it felt like the train was there. Now I realize that the horn blowing and the dinging was probably very close to the same time, if not at the same time, but you could clearly hear the horn coming from down the tracks. And so when the when the train came through, it was it was alarming, right, to and I think um I was looking into I can't remember what it's called right now, but there was some study about um like not having a warning sound before there's an event, you know, like not a a noise before the rumbling or whatever and how startling that is. So, I just have some still have some safety concerns about that, especially with not having the pedestrian gates, but we do or have done or we're doing the quad gates or the or I mean the four arms down.

No, we are not doing the quad gates. Those are those are very expensive. They're about half a million dollars per potentially at a crossing and they're not necessary. They're just an option. What is what is what do they require for the arms that go down? Just an arm on each side or four arms? Yeah. So, so a quad gate is doing the similar thing to the median. It's making it so people can't go around the gates. So, so at a quad gate on each side of the railroad tracks, you not only have the one arm that comes down for the traffic coming towards there, you have two arms that go down side by side. So, so that that prevents people from going around the gates because they'd have to bust through the gate, I guess.

So, you do not have to have all four uh The median does the same thing. Putting up a median that people can't drive over, okay, keeps the cars in their lane rather than trying to go around the gates, which um is actually the most common a type of accident that occurs at at gates at crossings with gates is people thinking they can make it ahead of that train and trying to go around.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Okay. And then um just full disclosure to everybody out there. Um I did put in a public records request for emails that might have gone back and forth with the prior mayor to try to dispel some of the rumors that are out there or see if there was any validity to it. I got a bill for $525. So I am not going to be able to order the emails to see um what that was about. Um, so the only other question that I had then because I know you probably don't know everything that was said before was um, do you know like how the bid process came about and there's a reason I'm asking because the mayor told me that this was going to be an in-house project and I can read you his email. So in July of 2025, he said in

council register just to confirm the prior administration, right? Prior mayor.

Yes. Sorry. Sorry. Um the former mayor um in an email dated let me let me start all the way over. July 22nd, 2025, former mayor Wagner um stated that the funding for the quiet zone does have to be approved by council. This will take place with the final budget presentation and decision by council. And then he went on to say, I believe the majority of the work for the quiet zone will be done in-house. Thus, if I am not mistaken, you would not see a formal resolution come back before council. And so then, but here we are, right? Like we're now here we are talking about a bid. And I realized that he sent out the bid after the election at the end of November. And I'm wondering why if it was supposed to be an in-house project, if you know anything about that, which you might not,

um, but why the bid was just was yeah, why the bid didn't come out until the end of November.

Uh, well, uh, as far as in-house, I think perhaps what he meant was that all the design would be done in-house because I did all of the design, but as far as that and our and our street crew is going to do as much of the work as we can. We're going to take care of any striping, any of the signs that need to be installed, all of that. Um, however, we we don't do concrete work, so the concrete meetings have to be farmed out to a contractor. Um, as far as the timing of when it was um put out to bid, I honestly can't remember. It might have been October, November. I'd have to go back and look, but I know that we opened the bids

in December, early December. I think the bid process started on November 20th if I remember. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. No, we did not. The the bid was extended. So, we opened the bids on January 13th. Yeah. Right. Okay. Um, so then the other thing that we talked about um was a possible compromise with the horns on during the day when there was more traffic, more kids driving, more people walking, all that stuff, and then horns off at night. And we thought about that for a little bit. Um well we haven't even really talked about it but um something that that is possible if that were to come up um you said that there were a couple places that do a hybrid approach like that.

Yes ma'am it is possible there of the thousand 37 whatever it is quiet zones. I think there's 28 of them or something that are partial quiet zones, which means that the horns don't blow from I believe that's okay. You don't answer. Anyway, like 9:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. or something like that. Okay. But they still blow during the day.

If it if it's possible at all to get that list, I would like to call and just see how that's going for them. simply because if the I mean depending on what the council decides or the um issues raised here tonight I wonder if that's something that could be a compromise for our community where you know the safety the bigger safety issues I would think would be during the day when there's more people out like I said kids driving people walking would it be helpful to keep them on during the day and then off at night because the one of the other questions that I was going to ask Union Pacific was I had heard that like 10 years ago and this is not official but this was from people that lived in the in the area that 10 years ago the trains were coming through like every 10 minutes right and so now they're coming through like once every hour and so if there was any um anticipation from Union Pacific or anybody that that might decrease even more so I know you can't answer that but that was

yeah I don't I don't know the answer to that right so anyway if it was going to decrease more and we did some kind of compromise if you know three trains a day would wouldn't be so bothersome. Yeah. I I I would only say to the um the partial there's only you know there's less than 3% do a partial quiet zone mainly because there are still shift workers and people sleeping during the day. The other thing is it raises an inconsistent expectation for traffic and pedestrians as they approach. Is the horn going to blow or is it not going to blow? So, so I think that's probably the reason very few people do it.

Yeah. And I think that like I agree with you. Um, so there has to be getting kind of used to it, but if the train horns are removed, people have to get used to it anyway. So, it's kind of like do you don't you know what I mean? Like some you have to get used to something. So, it's just sort of what it is. But, I'm just trying to think of a compromise that would be helpful for everybody. um you know so that there's not so much division and and all that kind of stuff as well. Um and I think that I think that's it. I think my biggest issue still is the safety, the pedestrian gates and the loss of more parking. Um as so those are just things I guess we have to work through. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

Thank you, councelor register. Council all good. Uh yeah, Bruce. Thank you. Um, do you know what the speed limit is for the trains in Caldwell today? I believe they gosh, I'm sorry. I can find out for tomorrow night, but they h different. I think it varies with crossings. Um, some are more than others. As you get out more rural, I think they can go as fast as 60 miles an hour through town. I'm not sure if that's the same or not. I'd have to check. And and kind of what I'm getting at is if we implement a quiet zone, does it change speed limits for trains? I don't believe that that they're they change their speed limits whether it's a quiet zone or not.

Okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

Any additional questions from council? All right. Seeing none, uh we're going to move on. Steve Broomba. uh former railroad railroad engineer, please come forward. And just so everyone's aware, he's not speaking on behalf of the railroad, just his prior experience. So, I sent some uh graphics. I don't know if I have access to those or not. Ah, there we go. Uh okay. So, uh I'm not a CBO resident, but I might be someday. I live in Nampa right now. Uh I'm retired locomotive engineer. I had 38 years of experience uh service with Union Pacific. Uh but like you mentioned, I don't speak for them. Uh for several years, I held a statewide railroad safety position. Uh and in in addition to my normal duties, safety is always been my primary focus. Um, I also have uh I've been asked to comment on this, but I've also have some personal misgivings about it. Uh, I'll state my personal opposition first. Um, so uh what's showing here right now is uh from the general code of operating rules. It's uh rule 5.8.2. And uh I don't know if you can read that uh very well where I have it highlighted. It explains uh how we use the the train whistle whistle or horn. Uh same thing that they're interchangeable for railroad talk. Uh part of uh the part that uh is that I want you to notice uh more than anything is where it says the engineer believes

such a action is appropriate in that uh first block. Uh so then uh then the next uh one there uh that's not mine. Oh yeah, it is. I'm sorry. It doesn't look the same to me here. Uh in in the highlighted part there again, uh it's basically saying the same thing that when the engineer believes that an action is appropriate, he can use a horn. Uh this is specifically applying to quiet zones. Um so track speed through Caldwells, you asked about that. It's 60 miles per hour. Um you'll see trains going slower than that. It depends on what they're hauling and and whether they're crossing over to the the other main line going east or coming west going through the switch. Uh there's a lot going on in the cab when the train's underway that uh requires close attention from the train crew. Uh the crew must be thinking miles ahead and taking into account signal indications, upcoming speed restrictions, train handling, mechanical issues, and dispatcher communications among other things. This uh item again like I was saying in that 5.2 5.8.2 above is what the CR train crew does when the horn with the horn while approaching a crossing as a matter of routine. The same two long, one short, one long pattern every time for the same amount of time and distance. It requires no thinking or judgment. It's not a dra distraction to the crew's safe operation of the train when the horn is sounded in accordance to the standard operating rule. It's never a distraction from

other operation operating demands of attention. It is wrote and mechanical. The parts I've highlighted they supersede any quiet zone rule. And because the quiet zone eliminates the conventional proactive warning, an element of demand for extra attention and judgment is introduced. The emphasis changes from proactive to reactive, which is now the responsibility of the crew. The crew now has to decide at a moment's notice whether to sound the horn for any of the applicable reasons. Not noticing or not deciding to sound the horn soon enough can have extremely negative consequences for the crew. If I was still working, I would consider the quiet zone a personal liability and a threat to my well-being, another source of stress and a highly stressful occupation. Caldwell has been notorious in the past for encountering trespassers on the track. Uh I I didn't mention until now that uh I I ran trains through Calwell for several for quite a few years. Uh while I have not had any incidents or close calls with vehicles that I can remember uh here in Cwell, I have had numerous close calls with pedestrians. I want to mention also that uh while I haven't don't recall uh seeing anybody driving around the gates in downtown Caldwell, uh I've had a couple times where they drove right through the gates. The gates just break away or swing away. So without uh routine sounding of the horn, I firmly believe these incidents would have been more frequent and more likely to have resulted in death,

injury, or at least having to make more emergency stops. Those emergency stops result in a lot of train delay, crossings blocked, and scrutiny from management. Incidents resulting in injury, death, or death cause train crews mental anguish, often with physical ramifications. The benefits of the quiet zone have been somewhat exaggerated. According to the FRA, crossing accident rates are neither statistically increased or decreased in quiet zones. has already mentioned the potential 42% reduction in future accidents in Caldwell that has been claimed is based on a point systemdriven conjecture. It might be more reasonable to first refer to what actually is happening with the current system. Uh if you could put up the next chart that I have there. This is crossing accident data for the crossings in question during the last five full years provided by the FRA. I've highlighted the track speed in the fourth column from the right as well as the yearly accident count for every crossing that had one. Note that there is only one accident on only one of the crossings in the proposed zone. That would be uh 21st Street and uh I believe that was a pedestrian. Uh I think that's the one that was mentioned. Calwell has a very low crossing accident rate already. Um a search for reports of trains injuring pedestrians other than that one turns up blank. If the safety is really a reason for quiet zone, the data shown

suggests that perhaps it would be more productive to address what's going on outside of the proposed zone at Look. And what that chart doesn't show that that I was reminded of uh this morning is that Look Lane had an incident back in 2017 as well. Uh and it's all truck traffic there. Uh, quiet zones are not always quiet. As noted in earlier comments, there are numerous potential reasons to sound the horn regardless of the quiet zone designation. What's not obvious in the rules I attached is implied, but train crews are wellversed. Anything that causes an obstruction of visibility can be a reason to sound the horn. in some cases sounding it continuously. One com common condition in Cwell is fog. When visibility makes it difficult to see that the track is clear and the crossing gates are functioning, my default would always be to sound the horn as if there is no quiet zone. Rail cars are often stored on side tracks in downtown Caldwell. The horn must be sounded if those cars are close to a crossing and obstructing the view. Pedestrian traffic on or near the track, which is very common throughout Caldwell, including on the bridges over Indian Creek and the Boyisey River, requires use of the horn. Much of that pedestrian traffic uh activity happens late at night. Whenever there is an event at the fairgrounds, there are many pedestrians wandering around and crossing the track at and near 21st Street. Now that event parking has been relocated to the north side of the track, I expect that activity to increase. Another thing that I have not seen

acknowledged by proponents of the quiet zone is the cost of maintaining the required improvements. I have no idea what that amounts to, but I noticed when doing a search related to quiet zones that there are numerous news reports from various communities across country that have their quiet zone status suspended by the FRA due to failure to maintain the facility the improvements has required. Interestingly, some of those zones had existed for less than five years. There seems to be some common reluctance to spend the funds for maintenance and repairs. Should be it should not be overlooked that the city will be responsible for those ongoing costs and the FRA does audits to ensure compliance with quiet zone requirements. For all those reasons, I'm not in favor of spending money on the proposed quiet zone in Caldwell. And the only way I would believe it would make the city both quiet and safer for all is if it includes elimination of all the city center crossings as Napa has done and effective fencing throughout the zone. And with that I would answer any questions. Uh thank you for that. Councelor Dmer with question.

Yes Mr. Brunoff thank you for your testimony. I really appreciate it. I have a couple questions for you, but first of all, I want to preface my questions by saying I have a grandfather that retired from Union Pacific as a bridge inspector and worked the Pacific Northwest. I also have an aunt who retired as a scale inspector and worked every thing from Salt Lake City to the uh to the Calwell yard. I have an uncle that retired from Union Pacific Railroad in the Nampa yard within the last 10 years. And my father lost his middle finger sometime in the mid70s uh at the railroad yard in Nampa. I have a long line of people who uh who have worked for the railroad in my family. And before they closed the uh the museum down here at our historic train depot, I'm proud to say that I had uh plenty of family memorabilia that was uh that was in there. So, my my questions are this, and I really appreciate you uh clarifying that you're not here representing the uh Federal Well Railway Administration or you're not here uh uh representing Union Pacific Railroad. You're just here giving testimony as an engineer. So, um, so what year did you retire from Union Pacific Railroad?

I retire retired in 2019. So, in 2019. Okay. So, I'm just trying to look at of all the railroad quiet zones that were approved, it would s it would seem to be that like half the railroad quiet zones were have been approved since you've retired. So, how many um how many how many railroad quiet zones did you engineer a train through?

I didn't run through any quiet zones that were uh established per this rule. I I ran through uh Pendleton, Oregon. uh they have a sort of a quiet zone there, a partial it's it's all all day and all night, but uh they uh they have for years actually before this rule was established had uh only using the bell through Pendleton. Now the difference there though is also in Pendleton this track speed is 35 miles an hour. So, uh, we I did not experience any crossing incidents there. Uh, we had the same issue there though with foot traffic. So, so we had some close calls with that. So, if you haven't navigated a train through a quiet zone, would you be able to tell the difference from an engineer standpoint what a regular crossing looks like and what a quiet zone crossing looks like from sitting in the engine or sitting in the uh in the locomotive? what it looks like. I I would probably it with some depends on how it's how it's been uh built, but uh I would probably have some indication that it's a quiet zone uh from the way it looks, but of course I would have in my system special instructions. I would have prior knowledge of where the quiet zone is. Now, how it looks from the cab of the locomotive is probably not very relevant because all I care is that the the gates are down if there are gates and and there's nobody going through them or around them. Uh, and there's no foot traffic,

there's no bicycles going around going through. And also if there's an adjacent main track, there's nobody walking on that that track over there. That's the stuff we look for. Looking at the different crossing appliances. The only thing that that we were are required to know about that is that it's functioning.

Okay. So the other question that I have is um I would suspect the railroad prod provides distributes between 35 and 50% of the commodities that the the American public consumes. Uh so uh the railroads are are are really important. Um so I have not seen the approval. Uh but I suspect that I've got to take Mr. Mill's word that there is an approval. Um, having worked for Union Pacific Railroad, do you believe that Union Pacific Railroad would issue a permit in error? Would issue a what?

Would they issue a quiet zone permit in error? Have you known them to issue a quiet zone permit in error? I I don't know if I could possibly answer that question other than to say that Union Pacific complies with the federal regulation and if the regulation requires them to work with an a city uh to establish a quiet zone, that's what they'll do. Okay. So, with regards to the testimony, Mr. Mills, have you is there anything wrong with his chronology? Do you think that there is anything that the city took any shortcuts in getting approval from those two administrations?

I'm not affamiliar enough with the approval process to have any any comment on that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Councelor Denber. I believe councelor Olga was next. Uh yes, sir. Thank you for your testimony. Appreciate it. Um the the the accident count you have here. Can you remind me what the time length is here? Which accident you you right there on the board. Uh oh. How what what's the time frame there? The time frame there is is is uh five years 2021 through 2025. Okay.

Those columns in the middle. And I don't know why they're they read from right to left, but they do uh for the years 21 through 25.

Okay. And and the reason I asked that, sir, is I spent quite a time in law enforcement here and you are absolutely correct and pedestrians are an issue. Um but and and my time frame goes back further than that, but just personal experience. Uh we lost a pedestrian at fifth in railroad, one at one at 10th in railroad, another elderly gentleman crossing on foot. Uh missed the train. Uh I was at one at uh Lynon where guy drove around the arms. Uh killed a family of five at um a deputy was hit at 12 in railroad. Fortunately he survived but it by a miracle

and that's just off the top of my head. So, we have had Yeah. Go ahead, sir. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm just saying um the idea that the horns are blurring doesn't seem to affect some people. We we we seem it doesn't uh people need to be more cautious because and and there's a lot more of these collisions than I'm listing here. These are just ones I was at. Um uh and so uh anyway, I'm kind of in agreement with you. Some people just don't pay attention, but but uh we we do have quite a number of them over the years.

Yeah, there's unfortunately I wasn't able to get more uh of a year spread there with that with that chart. Uh there definitely have been other accidents uh in Caldwell. I myself have a couple of times at least had to do an emergency stop in Caldwell for pedestrians. Uh those don't get reported. What happens with those is uh you guys probably get phone calls because the crossing has been blocked for hours while they get the train going again.

Yeah. Um, so the only the only point of that uh chart really is that if you are talking about a 42% reduction in accidents, you're really only looking at reducing that one accident or the five-year period by one. Um, unless you look at Lane. Well, and it sounds to me I hope these numbers are accurate because it sounds to me like we're actually improving on on less people getting hit, which I certainly hope so. Well, I you're asking me if I approve of the fewer people being hit. Well, no, no, I'm just saying I believe we're seeing an Oh, you're Yeah.

people being more aware. The FRA's information seems to indicate that Idaho and Caldwell uh Idaho in general, Caldwell in particular really have a low incident rate uh compared to nationwide as it is now. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you, Councelor Algood and Councelor Stodd. And after that, unless there's any other questions, we'll get to the comment period. Go ahead, Councelor Stoic. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh, again, thank you for your presentation. Uh, I had received a letter from a a gentleman, a Mr. Burch. Are you familiar with him at all?

Birch. Burch. B U R C H. I don't recall.

Okay. I'll just read a few excerpts. He He's kind of on the opposite side that that you are, just to let you know. But his certifications, he's a certified locomotive engineer. He's got a OJTI on the job training as an instructor. He's an instructor and he's also a safety representative. And some of the things just some some short quotes here. He says, "I'm a certified passenger locomotive engineer licensed through the Federal Railroad Administration." And he tells the certificates he holds. And he says, "From a professional and operational standpoint, properly implemented, whistle quiet zones are very safe." And if I may, he goes on to a few other excerpts here. It is also important to clarify a common misconception. A whistle zone is not a whistle-free zone. In other words, he's stating what some of the people have said already that if you folks see a danger, you're going to you're going to blow your whistle. And he said the reason he thinks that it's safer, he said from the cab of a locomotive, quiet zones can actually enhance safety without the need to focus on whistle boards. And you know more about that than I do. That's inside the cab now. Whistle boards, horn cadence, and precise timing. The engineer is able to maintain greater visual attention outside the cab, monitoring the crossing, rural conditions, and surrounding the environment. Situational awareness in the field is critical to safe train operations. And then lastly, my support for quiet zones is rooted in safety. When the required federal engineering upgrades are in place, they represent a motorized moderized approach to grade crossing protection that prioritize engineer safety improvements and rural world risk reduction. And Mr. Mayor, if you want me to submit this, I can. If not, I just wanted to make sure that this is the other side of the coin. And I don't know, I've never met Mr. Burch, but uh

Would you like me to comment on that? Sure. Go ahead. Just just real quick to clarify that was I believe already in the record with the clerk. I believe they did also recommend quad gates and some other safety measures including pedestrian. But yeah, we can have that entered in the record again if just to make sure it's okay. Seen. So, did I hear correctly? He is a a passenger. Yes. Engineer.

Yep. Uh so he doesn't operate here. I don't know where he operates but it's not here. We don't have passenger service here anywhere. Uh and uh operating a passenger train Amtrak train is far different from uh freight operation. It's it's different in a whole bunch of ways. Uh there's actually not as much going on inside of the cab in in a passenger locomotive. Uh there's not even a fraction of the weight being hauled. Uh stopping distances are far shorter. Uh I could probably think of a few other things that are a lot different. I I think that it's not a very valid perspective to what we're looking at here. Um I can I could probably think that if I was a passenger locomotive engineer, I would have a little bit different perspective as well. Uh so one one of the things as I mentioned operating the the horn it doesn't take any attention. It's it's habitual. It's wrote it's mechanical. You'd run that that route every day or every other other day.

You memorize where the whistle signs are. Uh and and now they have a screen on board in the cab that that's showing them where the crossings are and everything too. It's a bit more modern than when I ran, but but they that screen is something that has to be watched as well. Uh when you're going coming through Caldwell and you're operating the W the the train horn. Mhm.

Uh the crossings are so close together, most of them, that it's it's continuous crossing signal with a train horn going through and and there's no attention or thought applied to doing that. That's that's you got one hand here operating the horn and your tension's out there and there's nothing to look at as far as running the horn. You just run it. Mhm.

Uh take away that horn and now you have to pay even closer attention to what's going on out there because you're not giving anybody any warning. Yeah, you got gates, but there's also people people on foot. And so that's actually a less predictable incursion than uh auto traffic. Well, his point as far as the horn was concerned is that you folks would have more time looking out of the cab to see whether there were any safety issues. That was his point.

Yeah, there would be no difference in how much time I would be looking out the window operating the horn. You don't have to look anywhere but out the window and and your control screen just like always. Okay. Would you agree that uh if a passenger train probably uh is not as slow as a freight train for instance, don't they go a lot faster through towns uh consistently not slowing down or and I'm just going from the experience I had with the uh heck I forget what it's called. has been years ago, but the train that used to come through here all the time with passengers and I've I've ridden them in North Dakota too in some business up there. But

all again, it doesn't really apply here because we don't have passenger service and I I don't want to see it coming back. But all different trains have different speed requirements. The passenger service potentially out here in the West could be going 10 miles an hour faster than any freight train out here. Uh they they when we had them here they had a top speed of 79 miles an hour.

Uh where freight speed the top speed we have out here in track out here is is 70. Um through Cwell it's 60. If you had a passenger train going through Cwell right now it would also be going 60 because that is the track speed. Um it wouldn't be going faster. Uh probably wouldn't be going slower. Um, you'll have trains uh fair trains that are restricted by their tonnage or the kind of cars they they have or the way the trains made up that might be going 50, they might be going 40. Uh, you know, so so isn't it just a a set thing? But your your maximum speed here through Caldwell is the track speed which is uh 60 miles an hour. M okay. Your your comment on whether we're going to have a passenger train or not. If it's up to the mayor of Boise and some other state officials, we're going to have one, but the cost that to me is ridiculous, but that's the way it is.

Now that I'm I'm retired, I hope you're right. When I was working, I didn't like having it around. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Anymore? All right. Thank you. All right. Well, that's a lot of good information. Um just reminder, please be respectful, right? We're going to have different opinions here tonight. Uh please don't attack council, you know, by name. Feel free to speak about what you're speaking about tonight in reference to the train quiet zone, but just be respectful of council. And uh with that, Chris Crookham. Okay.

Hi, my name is Chris Crookham. uh 301 West Warehouse. Um we have a seed company down here in Caldwell. It's right by the railroad tracks. Probably the building's about 15 feet from it. Um one of the things that I want to really focus on tonight is that the core of downtown Caldwell is one of the best money makers for the city in um getting taxes in. It's one of the highest uh rates. It is more expensive but it is also brings in quite a few taxes and through studies that we've looked at throughout the nation uh these if you have concentrate on your core city and the businesses that are there including residential businesses these can offset taxes for the areas of the city that don't pay for themselves as far as taxes. So what we're finding now is that um most of the suburbs are subsidized by the city and then the outside um agricultural areas that bring in money. And in Kenya County, those agriculture areas bring in a lot of money because it's just not wheat that goes is sent off on a train. It's onions that go to a packing house. It's seed that goes to a manufacturing. And so all the businesses that are here generate also um a good deal of uh income for you know the city. So um with having to subsidize the suburbs I think it's really important that we focus on our downtown core and part of that is we're going to have to look at infrastructure and a good start to that is a quiet zone. And I believe just hearing the um comments so far, I if you have to pay more attention in a quiet zone, it seems like that would be a good thing. Um that's the only kind of

from the testimony that I'm kind of coming up with that I it sounds like the engineers have to pay more attention and I think that might be a good things for the citizens of Caldwell. But the infrastructure is not going to stop there. We really need to look at that downtown core and taking care of it. Cuna did not take care of it, so it's relying on data centers. Meridian did not take care of it, so it has a permanent bond for police. So, I'm really hoping that we don't make emotional decisions. We look at the data, data driven decisionmaking, so that when we come back and you talk to us to the public, you can say, "Here's the receipts. This is this is why we made this decision." So, um I'm fifth generation. We got sixth and seventh generations. Oh, see I get so emotional about this. Oh gosh, we love Caldwell and we just would love to see it the downtown core taken care of so that people want to live there, businesses want to move there. So, thank you for your consideration.

Uh, thank you for that. And just Sorry, you're good. Right. Any questions? All right. Okay, just for those uh in the audience, the clerk emailed me earlier. And so far, as far as submissions prior to this uh speakers tonight, we have 275 that has sent in letters against and 53 in favor. So, just for those that are keeping notes, uh next up is going to be Is that for me or No, that's to the crowd to the council. Um if they hadn't had a chance to look at that yet. Uh next will be Don Davis. I did not sign up to speak. Okay. And if you did sign up, but you're not going to speak, just let us know. Next will be Kelly Jenkins.

Uh, Mr. Mayor, may I just Does that include all the petitions that were turned in or haven't been turned in yet? Whatever's been turned in to the city clerk, she's tallied the totality of what's been turned in because I understand there's some more petitions coming in. So, that's why it has Yes. And then we would add that to the overall number and put that to you later.

Mayor and city council, it's good to be with you um tonight. Thank you for bringing us together for this very important um cause. Um I just want to do a little bit of a walk down memory lane um for some of the newbies. Um as I heard that term say stated today. Um 10 years ago I spent a ton of time right here in front of city council as the president of destination Caldwell. And it was a time when you avoided downtown. there was not a lot of reasons to be there and we would take our money to other communities. Um but there was this impossible dream called Indian Creek Plaza that we many of us um including the city leaders council urban renewal um rallied around. Tonight I'm here as the president of the downtown Caldwell business improvement district um and also as a downtown property owner. the district, and I'm going to call the business improvement district. The district just to shorten things up, um, unanimously supports the quiet zone. Um, we had a board vote on it and every board m every board member voted in favor of the quiet zone, as do many property and business owners within the district. And I know there's some discrepancies in that 53 in favor because there's other petitions out there that um, there's hundreds actually. So, we need to get that all reconciled. Um, but anyway, a quick walk down memory lane. Um, about 10 years ago, city council required um Destination Caldwell to um spearhead creating a business improvement district in downtown. And that creation was to provide perpetual funding um for the plaza. um no dirt would be turned on that land where the plaza was at until that

business improvement district was created. At that time there were probably only three business improvement districts in the state of Idaho. Two were failed districts and one was surviving over in Boisee. Um it took seven months door-todoor volunteer effort um asking for property owners to approve a selfassessment um on their properties. And nearly 10 years later, 365 plus property and business owners have invested almost $3,150,000 into this community because of that district. You know, at the time that district was created, no dirt was turned. Maybe a sign was placed on that lot. Um, but there were skeptics and there was risk. There were naysayers. There were all kinds of similar things that we're experiencing. Um, but there was leadership and there was alignment and the community um was willing to to believe those property owners are really the unsung heroes I think of downtown Caldwell. um they invested when success was uncertain, but they believed that it was probably Caldwell's last attempt to turn around. Um it's important that we keep listening to that same group of business improvement property and business owners. um decisions like this with the quiet zone um greatly impact them and so we want to make sure that they always have a voice. On a personal note, I too support um

let's wrap it up. Thank you. Just letting you know the time it ended, but could just finish up if you could please. All right. Let me just be really quick. I too support the quiet zone. As a property owner, we've invested um for about 40 years in downtown Caldwell to try to restore historic buildings, bring them back to life, create a new um vibrant downtown. Um those types of community projects and investments are essential um as we continue to move forward with this quiet zone. It will help us to become um even a more active, vibrant, walkable downtown. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much for your comment. of question. Do you have a question?

Yes. Thank you for being here. I actually do have some questions that I'm hoping you're the exact person that I want to ask because some of it is historical and I'm trying to just get a better idea of certain things. Um when let's see um okay so when Indian Creek was brought about the original Rogerboats plan did not include a quiet zone. So, do you I know that what it what it originally was revolving around was parking where he said the future of downtown Caldwell revolves around off-site parking and gives and then gives a list of other guidance, but there's not one mention of a quiet zone in there. So, what I've been trying to sort of figure out is when there were, you know, multi-million dollars being spent on Indian Creek, if the business experts feel that the quiet zone is going to enhance commercial, why was there not a quiet zone then? Do you know?

You know, I'm not sure that I have. When you're talking about Indian Creek, are you talking about the daylight or the plaza?

Yeah. Well, bringing up the creek, the plaza, okay, um all of the work that went around downtown, all of that. So, when the Roger Brooks plan came forward, he didn't mention putting a quiet zone in. So, I'm just sort of trying to figure out why we would spend all that money if the quiet zone was so um intrical to the downtown core. Well, I think, you know, I don't have the exact answer for you, but certainly when Roger came to town and created that um rebranding, remarketing plan, action plan for Caldwell, it really focused on just the plaza, the core part of town, and then rebranding. What is Caldwell known for? What are our specialties? And not really focusing on a larger scale like we're looking at now. We took care of the core, now we're building out, and then it involves these tracks. Okay. Yeah, because we were I I I did read through the plan, so I know it was talking about the core, and I was just curious why it's a why it's a thing now, but it wasn't then. But

um and then the other thing we hear a lot of and I and again, I'm just trying to get clarification on it, is that businesses or that we will struggle to bring businesses to the downtown core or businesses are struggling because of the train horns. yet businesses did come even with the train horns um when the plaza was done. So I guess my question now after finding out that we're looking at losing all that parking um we have 55 spaces in one spot, 10 to 12 in another, possibly 40 more if um Arthur and 7th is ever closed to a pedestrian. Um there's 40 we might be able to use right now, but then we're going to lose again someday when development happens on that lot. And then the 75 Titillian. So whatever the grand number is, do you think that parking is more of an issue for downtown businesses or horns? And and I'm just I'm being realistic here because now the horns are taking out another seven parking spots. So, I'm just trying to figure out like we we're talking about doing the quiet zone to in to better the downtown core and the businesses, but then we're okay with taking away all of these parking spots. And so, I'm just curious like what the business owners think about the removal of parking and if that affects them. Um, I guess if they would if they feel like the horns will make up for it, you know what I mean? Because if we take away all that parking, are we going to even have a downtown?

Right. Um, you know, I think first of all, um, you know, we have an issue just as a society not being a pedestrian walkability kind of a a culture and and that needs to kind of hopefully shift over time. you know, we have no problems going to a big city and going to a, you know, a game somewhere and walking block after block after block to get to the game. Um, but here, you know, to park two or three blocks away, it's a bigger deal um for people. So, I mean, I think that's a cultural issue that we still need to keep working on. Um but in addition to that um when Envision Caldwell comes back with their um plan and this larger um 20 25 year focus a lot of that parking um will be addressed in that. And so I'd like to maybe just say hold off and and see what's planned because it definitely addresses parking.

Well, I and I think it will too. I think that there's sort of this discussion around parking um structures. I just sort of think that maybe we should be looking at that plan and if we can do it and how we're going to pay for it and all that stuff before we make bigger changes like quiet zone. Um and then out of curiosity um I did talk to Roger about this idea of a compromise of having the trains on during the day and off at night. He said that it could definitely be doable for some of the places that I know that in his plan he has a very large apartment building near the tracks that he had talked about that could be a possibility. And then of course we know about there's hotels and things like that and more hotels probably that we're looking at. I think um is there any has that been discussed at all? the idea of maybe a compromise like how that would affect the downtown core and the people living down there and all that.

You know, in in Roger's plan with Envision Caldwell, I haven't seen those details, so I can't say that for sure. I'm of the mindset that consistency is important and having this schedule with it on and off at different times that seems like that would lend itself to uh potential problems. It's just that personally with the businesses um since you have that ex that connection there like would that be something that you like is the daytime noise just so much from the horns that they can't do business or would that be something that maybe they would consider talking about?

Well, I think they would consider anything. And I think, you know, when we're talking about the quiet zones, yes, it would benefit the businesses that are here right now, but really it's to attract more growth in the downtown corridor. And it's those um additions that, you know, would rather go to another community that they don't have to worry about um you know, trains blowing by 17 times a day. Okay. Thank you, thank you, councelor register. Councelor Denber,

Mr. Mayor, thank you, Kelly. First of all, I want to uh say to everybody who's listening and for those of you in the media who who care about this sort of things, you would be hardpressed to find a person more than Kelly who has shaped this community in the last 20 years. A remarkable individual. All right. Hey, I don't want him to slap the hammer.

So, uh you guys can uh applaud her later, but I also want to recognize and there's questions in here. I've got plenty of questions for you, so bear with me. Um, I also want to take the time to uh to recognize our other community leaders who are here in this room who have helped shape Caldwell, who are considered the fathers of our community, the Crook family. Thank you very much for being here. Mr. Pilot, you and your family's efforts. Thanks for being here. Bob Carpenter, the original artist of Caldwell and the person who probably is solely responsible for uncovering Indian Creek without getting any of the attention. Uh Mr. Gibson for running a remarkable and nationally renowned uh publishing company. Uh Mr. Moore, uh I I appreciate all you guys have done to help shape and uh and build this community. Mr. Roberts, uh remarkable contribution. So, let's go down this this history again. So, I remember being in the meetings in the old council chamber and talking about the commitments made by the city that there would be no plaza. There would be no commitment to uh see this until we had a business improvement district. So whatever happened 101 12 years ago with establishing the business district I would suspect there was a lot of apprehension and a lot of uh uh trepidation about uh stepping off that cliff. Is that correct?

You know in hindsight and looking back actually um it was it was a mixture. I think there were a lot of um property owners and downtown businesses that really saw this as Caldwell's last chance. Um this was the opportunity that wind was in the sale and just jump and go. And then there were other property owners that we didn't visit with once or twice. We visited with them three or four times. And when city council laid that mandate down and I remember it was a December snowy day and we left that meeting that council meeting h was such a heavy weight because um that was a big job but um the property owners didn't hesitate at the at the end to to um do all that they could to make sure that Caldwell became more and

Okay. So, so to to to kick carry on with that, let's talk about now you're here representing the business improvement district. And so, when you reached out to the business improvement district uh either last August or October or when Roger Brooks made his presentation or in the last couple weeks, uh what was the level of uh um what was their uh overall general uh opinion about the quiet zone? you know, at that point and honestly, um, when we reached out, um, the quiet zone was almost as though it was happening automatically, right? There wasn't a whole lot of like commotion about it or interest. It was kind of a consent, you know, calendar like line item is what it was like. So, um, it only became more of a focus after the first of the year. And so when we initially, you know, re um contracted with Roger, um the quiet zone was pretty quiet.

So with regards to I think you made a comment that you have 350 business owners in the business improvement district. Did any of them express any safety concerns about the quiet zones to you in any of this discussions that you've had with the business improvement district? you know, the majority that we've heard from are all very positive about the quiet zone. There are a couple that um you know, are in opposition and that's fine. And there's a few that very few that you know are kind of on the fence, but the majority that we've heard from are all very supportive of the quiet zone.

Okay. So, I'm going to shift gears a little bit. Uh without turning around and looking at your husband for the for the correct answer, how many businesses in downtown Caldwell do you own? How many businesses do we own? Um uh maybe two and a halfish. Okay. You know, one's one's he's about ready to retire out of um after a fiveyear um contract. Um so really we just have a couple businesses that own properties here in downtown Caldwell. And um we have a lot of tenants and all of the tenants that we have in the properties that we own um they are all supportive of the quiet zone. There's not one of them that's not.

Okay. So, one of the things that we hear all the time is uh or from time to time is that this uh this railroad horn that comes through here and just just as kind of a side note comment, the railroad loves Caldwell so much it doesn't even stop as it comes barreling through at 70 miles an hour. But do you consider the the the the whistle as it comes through town a cozy part of Caldwell's history?

Uh, no. No, I don't. I love the railroad history about Caldwell. Don't get me wrong. I know that it was the railroad that actually created Caldwell. And so, it's a very important part of our history. And I think we need to honor that and continue to celebrate that. But I don't think we need to celebrate it 17 times a day with the horn blasting through as long as all the other safety, you know, parameters are in place that are recommended and have been approved by the Federal Railroad Administration. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Kelly. Thank you.

And and I just want to say it was never me. This whole community came together to create what we have today. But thank you. Anything else? Thank you, councelor. Councelor Algood. Okay. I I don't have anything for Kelly. I just wanted to correct a record. Thank you, Kelly. Appreciate it. Okay. Thank you.

Um, the quiet zone was contemplated 11 12 years ago. That's where we got our first estimate that when when downtown was being built, Indian Creek was being uncovered, plaza was being considered as, as Mr. Mills testified, our first bid was in 2014. Um, uh, 2 million back then, I guess it was. But uh this is not this was this started occurring back when everything else started occurring in downtown Calwell. Just be clear on that. Yeah, I I realize that. Um hold on just a second. Is that anything further? All right. Thank you, councelor. All good. Councelor Register.

My question was about the original Roger Brooks plan, which was what I was trying to confirm, but I do realize that there were conversations. I did talk to some of the prior um elected officials who said that they that it was a money issue and then they just decided there wasn't a need for it. All right. Next is going to be Dennis Nihoff. I'm gonna wait until tomorrow night. Thank you.

Okay. Uh next will be Ron Dylan. proud Caldwell coward and caver. Also the spokesperson for team Caldwell, a group of people that helped get us a fantastic new mayor elected last fall. Team Caldwell thrives on having rocks thrown at us and being called names. So please keep it up. Those are doing it. I'm against quiet train crossings, but I'm what I'm really against are the apparent sweetheart package deals that have been permeating Caldwell for a while. You say that the push for the quiet crossings has nothing whatsoever to do with the hotel that a huge number of citizens are still against. Team Caldwell doesn't believe you. You seem to be hair on fire, excited to continue to pay out of state developer Roger Brooks up to 20 grand a month. That's an insult to every person in this community who makes 20 grand a month. Does that mean that he's four or five times smarter than the rest of us? How did Indian Creek Plaza really begin? As far as I recall, the car wash fell into the creek and it started there. Roger Brooks is proposing a trail along Indian Creek. A number of us have proposed trying to create a trail connecting Nampa and Caldwell along the creek for months or years. I volunteered to spear spearhead it and be paid nothing. When I owned Wild Rocky's, the largest mountain bike race series in the country, I built hundreds of miles of trails at ski resorts and private ranchers, and I charged the land owners nothing for my services. I've also been busy talking for months about trying to get a crew and build a trail around Lake LOL. Again, being paid zero.

Calwell and Canyon County have some people that grew up here that are wicked smart. And none of them would ever dream of asking 20 grand a month. Dave Moore, Bob Carpenter, Mike Denber. Do you really think Roger Brooks is worth four or five times the money that you guys make? Smartest guys in this area that I've ever encountered are retired engineer Ramy Ramsey Bros who will be sitting in one of those chairs in two years. Nampa Mayor Rick Hogabone and the most curious and open-minded person I've ever met in this area is Mayor Eric Phillips. You have gobs of talent in this room and in this community. If you have to pass another unpopular idea against the will of the people, at least don't rub salt in the wound by paying a fantastic amount of money to someone that didn't grow up here and isn't one IOTA to smarter than the rest of us. I'm the 1996 BSU marketing student of the year. My name's on the giant trophy. Good for me. But I wouldn't dream of asking that kind of money. That's appalling to me. Although I seem to find myself on opposite sides of the quiet crossing issue with council member Static, rest assured that he and I have been talking about trail ideas. Chuck, I want to assure you that you've done so many good things for this town, including voting against the hotel and aligning aligning with Ramsay against a number of poorly planned subdivisions.

Thank you. All right. Uh any questions from council? All right. Next. Uh, thank you for your comment, uh, D. Sartin.

Hello, and thank you for allowing me to speak. I'm a newbie. So, uh, I've just moved into the Caldwell area and I'm a new resident and a very enthusiastic one because I see channel 7 here tonight. And I can remember years back when I came to a meeting like this when the talk was revitalizing downtown Caldwell. And I can remember being a little skeptical because it didn't look anything then like it looks now. But watching it over the years and reporting on it over the years, seeing the energy behind what was proposed and then what was actually accomplished, it takes special leadership to do that. It takes special energy to do that and vision. And so when we moved out here about 20 acres, um our family's out here now. We have a little farm. Uh is because I love Caldwell and I love being a part of it. I love it so much that I'm now on the um destination Caldwell board. the downtown Caldwell Boisey improvement district and I'm on the executive committee for the Sunny Slope Wine Trail and I'm hoping to start a little um agurism business soon because I want to be part of what's going on here. So, I care about growth. I care about it being responsible growth and being growth that's going to impact the city of Caldwell and those great people that have invested so much here to make it what it is today. but also for those of us who live a little outside the city limits and don't want to see the kind of growth that has destroyed so many rural cities and counties. And so that the way to do that is to have good infill to care about our farmland and care enough that we do responsible growth within the city limits so that we have the tax base, we have the kinds of draws that bring people in instead of going out to spend their money. and it creates this balance that can be a beautiful thing in an area like ours if it's done with vision. So, I'm here because I care about preserving

Caldwell's charm, rural character, and farmland. But I also care about safety. And as a reporter for over 45 years, I know how to look at data, and I know how to look at what makes sense based on that. And what makes sense here is that this quiet zone, it's common sense. And I'm going to challenge you all a little bit here. Forgive me if I overstep my bounds a little bit, but if you can spend $238,000 to increase the safety on these crossings that go through here at 60 stinking miles an hour and you don't improve the quiet approve the quiet zone, then please spend that $238,000 and improve those areas by 42%. Why would you not do that? whether or not you want to do the quiet zone, please increase the safety. I can't believe how fast those trains go through here. But that's kind of a side note. Um my time is up, but for those of us that live outside of Caldwell and don't want to see the sprawl, we want to see that responsible, beautiful growth that benefits everybody, then please I I hope that you'll approve the quiet zone. Thank you.

Thank you. Any questions from council? Hi, Katie Owens. not speaking. All right, Connor Bell. No, I don't want to speak.

All right. Uh, Sue Smallwood. Hi, I'm Sue Smallwood and I live on 18th and Arthur which is right down the street and I'm less than a block away from the the tracks and I like the sound of the trains and my grandkid my great grandkids love it when the trains come by and and blow the horns. Um, but that that's my personal opinion and I think the money could be better spent other places in Caldwell other than the quiet zone. I don't I don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's needed and I think it's a waste of money and that's just my opinion.

Thank you. Any questions from council? All right. Next. Um, thank you for your comments. Uh, Travis Palmer.

All right. Uh, Bob Jenkins. Good evening, U Mayor Phillips and members of the city council. Um I've written everything down so I want to cover but first um I want to make sure that you guys receive the petition that we passed around. It had 250 names on it. So hopefully that will get added. I think we I emailed it to all of you. Um that should get added to the record and to the other 50 that were support. So, um, just to confirm real quick, you dropped that off here to the No, I sent it email. All right. I just want to make sure if you had dropped it off or not. Thank you.

Um, I want to speak tonight about more than a railroad crossing. Um, I want to speak about who we are as a community. Calwell has never moved forward because everyone agreed. We've moved forward because people chose to come together and do hard things. Think about the YMCA. That project required vision, fundraising, partnerships, and an enormous amount of volunteer energy. There were doubts, there were what ifs, but the community stepped up. Think about uncovering Indian Creek. At the time, people said, "What if someone falls in? What if someone drowns? What if the building owners won't sell?" Those concerns were real, but we had the we had to but if we had let fear lead, we would not have the beautiful public space that now defines our city. And think about Indian Creek Plaza. Many said it would never happen. It was too ambitious, too expensive, too risky. Today, I don't think anyone can deny it has been one of the best things to happen in Caldwell's history. It has brought families downtown. It has supported small businesses. It has changed how people feel about our community. Every one of those projects had naysayers. Every one of them had loud voices saying no. But they also had something stronger. Community members willing to work together, volunteer, invest, and believe in a better Caldwell. Right now, we are more divided than ever. Much of it is fueled by social media. It has become far too easy to tear down your neighbor, question motives, and assume the worst. The kind of noise, this kind of noise does not build great communities. We are Caldwell. Those who have lived here their whole lives, those who have just arrived, business owners, renters,

families, seniors. We either move together forward together or will stall out and to be divided. I'll be honest, I wasn't a fan of how the the um hotel came about. I wasn't thrilled with the parking meters either. But we cannot drive forward when we're looking in our rearview mirror. That is why the Envision Caldwell effort began to ensure that growth is guided by the community, not dictated to it. After a year's worth of meetings, we brought back Roger Brooks, the same visionary who helped um shape the plaza because we needed intentional and thoughtful growth. I'll try to speed it up here. Now, I know he has said some things that might sound hurtful, but I believe he was just showing his frustrations. I am one of the three musketeers, and everything I do is for myself. I have not invested anything. Um, and any investment in downtown will only benefit me. That's been said on social media. Growth is inevitable. The question is not whether Caldwell will grow. The question is, will we shape it or will it shape us? A railroad quiet zone is not about train horns. It is about making downtown livable. It is about protecting quality of life. It is about signaling to families, investors, and small businesses that we are serious about building an active, vibrant, and livable downtown. Cornerstone projects define cities. The YMCA, Indian Creek, the Plaza, each one required courage and unity. We can continue down a path of division, or we can choose again to come together and build something lasting. I truly believe that the division can be healed with face-to-face conversations.

Just go and wrap it up, please. Okay. Information can be shared, ideas can be reviewed. We are not that far apart in our thinking. Thank you. Um, sorry, real quick. Council register,

have you or I just was talking about it today, like what are your thoughts about a compromise? Um, you know, I'm kind of with it. It could be more detrimental than good. Um, you know, I'm I'm always up for compro, you know, like I said, my concern as a community. I just absolutely kills me to see us. I mean, I've known a lot of these people that are against it for years. Um, you know, I I just think if we can sit down, discuss some of the things that have been said about Roger 20,000 a month, that's not correct. He was asked, "What do you think it would take to hire a person to come in and ramrod, you know, push this project because somebody needs to do it?"

And he said, "If it were him, yeah, I mean, let's it's a matter of semantics and then it gets blown out of proportion." and he said if if it were him that's how much he would charge but he's a very prof you know professional he works all across the country that doesn't mean that we're hiring him that just means that if it were him that's what the city would be looking at

right and for me it's not so much about Roger in general I I liked the idea of bringing Roger back because I didn't want the prior administration to play in the city to be honest with you so I thought we needed a professional to come in and and do that so I completely agree with you on that and I also agree that whoever is going to execute this project has to be somebody who can execute the project, right? It's a it's a gigantic multi-million dollar project or it's or it's this money that we just spent and went down,

right? And um I you know I mean I think we've been over all the things and everything that you said and everybody said and I think you would agree that you know there is a division in the community and it it's like um I think that every person in this room that's shown up to speak tonight whether they're for or against is important in shaping Caldwell. I think that each person that comes here and expresses themselves has value and importance and all that stuff. And so I think that it's keeping in mind that everybody in this room is important and I think you would agree with that even though you were singled out for, you know, shaping Caldwell. I think everybody's doing that. So, I think there's some divisive words and actions that are um hard to get past. And that's why I keep kind of coming back to this compromise where I realize that um there there would be like a sort of a rethink, you know, that people would have to say, okay, um there's not going to be horns at night, but there's going to be a change and a rethink anyway, even if the quiet zone goes through, right? So, they're going to have to get used to something new, whether it's no horns or horns half the time. And so that's just something I want to leave you with. I know you can't answer that right now, but something to think about because I know you are a leader in that community, the business community and all of that of how how do we how can we compromise so that we don't divide the city again? Um because I think what you might be seeing a little bit of even if it's it it is harsh a lot of the times and it can be very inappropriate but I think what you you might be seeing in other people is a result of the feeling of that for the past four years they have not had a voice they have not had a say they have not been able to

do that so I'm just trying to come up with any approise councilwoman register um you know like I said I think we're a lot closer than we are divided. I'm not a fan on social media. I'm not I'm not I don't think you'll find me commenting very much, if at all. Um I think if we can be civil to each other, I'm willing to sit down. I met with a gentleman that was against it this um this morning at Flying M. I said, I'm open to talk. I mean, let's get together. None of these projects happen without the community them getting together and working towards it.

Um Caldwell, like I said, I've lived here my entire life. I've just, you know, I'm against the growth. Um we've got a ranch out on the south of town. We've got a subdivision on one side of it, another that was approved on the east side of it. Thank goodness we're backed up to the refuge. So I don't think the feds were going to have to confir, you know, worry about um the south of it. The Dimes, I doubt they're going to be selling anytime soon. And and uh we're worried about what happens when they do pass away. But regardless, you know, I'm not a fan of doing a lot of developments out in the outer perimeter. So what what's the option? bringing it towards town, increasing the density in downtown on these open lots and uh and with that, you know, that would help with to not have the horn going off.

Well, and I and I agree with you. So, I think there needs to be that conversation. And part of my feeling about this whole thing is I I feel like everybody in this room could agree that the pro that the way the processes have gone over the last several years have been part of the problem with the hotel, with the parking meters and all that. And I feel like that's what's happening now is we're doing this kind of backwards where we're deciding on whether or not we want to put these quiet zones in as opposed to seeing if we even want to adopt the plan first. And so those are the kinds of conversations I would like to have. Um and and I I worry about the safety. I feel like um even if we put the if we put the medians in to double the safety. It's like then you take the horns away, it's like buying a car and taking it back to the dealer and telling them to take the brakes off because now you have an emergency break. Like I just want it to all make sense and be safe. I don't want to put anybody in

and I appreciate that. But man, I've standed in front of that walk and you would have to be problematic to step out in front of a train and once the signage is in with just the bells and with just the crossing guards going down, it would be you you'd be making a a very unwise decision. Well, I agree and I think that's the things people are going to have to learn again. But

well, personal responsibility plays a lot a lot into that. Yeah, I I would like to see the pedestrian gates, but that's just again that's just, you know, my opinion on it. I think when we had the money and then we reallocated a lot of that money to the rodeo and so it was kind of like at that time it was not so important. Anyway, um but I appreciate that and I I would like to have more conversations that revolve around a solution. And again, I'm just kind of throwing that compromise out there to see if anybody even thinks that's a good idea. to anything else. Thank you, Councelor Register. Councelor Denber,

Mr. Jenkins, you don't get to run away so quickly. Uh again, I want to uh express my appreciation for all you do for this community. Um uh I was one of the people who criticized you many years ago for hanging on to those ugly buildings. And so now, thank you for holding on to those uh ugly buildings and uh um uh got to do uh physical assessments of those buildings way back when there was a Kings building there and got to see those uh buildings progress over time. So you came up here and you said something initially and then you piqu my interest and then you walked away. So, I want to piggy back off what a little bit what your uh uh uh what uh your wife talked about with regards to the business improvement district. Uh you talked about a petition. So, tell me a little bit about the petition. Is it the same people that are in the business improvement district? Are we

No. Um so, our envision Caldwell group um we had what three weeks kind of to to analyze this and we were a little slow out of the gates. Um, but we've we did a lot of research. We started a website uh Caldwell um quietzone.org and we've put a lot of good information up there. Um, we will be posting the interview I did with the uh um gentleman from Amtrak. He is based in Portland, but his family is here in Nampa and Caldwell. Um, he has family in both communities, so he keeps good track of it. Um he runs through quiet zones um uh from Portland south and Portland up to the Tri Cities. Um very interesting. I learned a lot. Uh we went door to door um getting signatures. Um the signatures were labeled up on top exactly what we were doing. Again, I've turned them all into you. I did put them into a spreadsheet as well. We have got quite a few businesses from Treasure Treasure Valley Metals, Dave Wheats, all the way up to to uh Gary and Dana and Aaron Vance up on 21st um and everybody in between. There are some that are neutral. There are some that said no, but uh it far outweighed like I said 250. I'm glad to hear that we had there was another um 50. But again, if we can't come together and work together on this and discuss it, um, you know, we could have a thousand. It's it's I'm not a firm believer of majority. I think things need to be thought out well and discussed in the future. Um, why it's a good thing, why it's not. Um, you know, because sometimes you have to make a decision and it's up to you guys to make those decisions. So with regard to this petition, um it uh so you you personally

met with these people um this Yeah, I got to visit I mean Dave Carrick was one of them. I haven't talked to Dave in quite some time. We had a good conversation. Um Daniel from the Casino hadn't met him. Well, he came to our Rotary Club once. I've talked to him. Um I've talked to, you know, you name it. uh the the lady that has called the floral, she said no, but she really liked Roger Brook's plan from what she saw of it in the uh paper that they talked about. So there's all kinds of opinions. Everybody's got their opinion, which is rightfully so.

So with regards to the uh the quiet zone, sorry Mr. Merrick. So with regards to the quiet zone, I mean, I would suspect that was the reason for your petition. I mean, you went out there with the quiet zone. So, uh, so the majority of the people that you spoke with were business owners, I take it, uh, or were they residential people? Um, we most of it was business and then we did spread out down Arthur Street, Cleveland, and a few others. We had then it kind of got on a roll and some other people just went around with their with their sheet. And so, we've got the community kind of covered. But, but when you know, all of it was on that spreadsheet I sent you. I don't know, you know, you guys can do with that what you will.

Well, just to be honest with you, I think I speak for all the other council members. We've probably got 200 300 email. We get 30 or 40 a day with regards to this. And uh and even though we care, it's a lot of time. That's why I tried to condense it and consolidate it, but you've got their names on there. You can go have a conversation if you want as well. But it was kind of fun. And like I said, I know the majority of people in this community. Um, so it was kind of fun to catch up um, and just talk about the future of Caldwell. Well, I appreciate the the effort that you put into it. So, the overall takeaway from it was the quiet zones are are a move in the right direction. They think so. Yes.

Okay. Thank you.

Just to clarify real quick, does anyone else have a question, the petitions, was that part of the online um, gathering or is it combination? It was online. It was well documented. If you go out to the site, it tells you, you know, we were just after business owners, partner, you know, community members. Um, we didn't, and I went through I could recognize a lot of the addresses. If I couldn't, I looked them up on Google. I tried to make sure they weren't duplicates. Um, but we had 250 there. You said you had 30 some. So, and how many opposed? So, like I said, it's a it's a it turned into a flashoint topic. And uh but I just uh wanted to be make sure the other side was heard as well.

Yeah. And just to clarify, that's what the clerk reported as far as letters being sent in. So we'll tally up the final numbers. So just that's what uh we had just got a message about that. But council register Oh, well I was just going to say that the clerk had told me before that she might be able to look through and see if there were any duplications on either side. Right. So people that signed a petition, I don't know if they they could have signed up online or or on the petition and then also sent a letter in. Don't know that's something. So we're going to try to break it down a little bit better by number. Yeah. Taking enough time. All right. Thank you. Um Eric Bulock.

Good evening. I'm Eric Bullock. I'm representing your Caldwell YMCA. And I will just say that the windshield is bigger than the rearview mirror. And we have been on a great great trajectory for the last 20 years as a city. And I want to see that continue. Um the big thing for me is safety. If we can make it safe, it should happen. Um I have a staff member right now that moved into the Tillian when it first opened. He can't wait to move out because of the train horn. And I have to hear that. I I have to listen to what the feedback he's giving me and and I owe that to you and to this community. It is a disruption and we can do better. I have lived next to a train track. When I lived down in Atlanta, Georgia and I bought a house. I was young. I was not making a lot of money. bought a house by the train tracks and tried to raise two little boys in it. It was tough. It was disruptive. And uh I moved out of there. I sold that house and got out of there as quick as I could. Um so I've experienced the disruption as a resident. I think we owe our residents in this area a better life. And um that's all I have to say. Thanks.

Thank you for that. Any questions for council? Did Travis Palmer come back? I haven't seen him. He's not coming back. Okay, we'll just keep him open for tomorrow night if you'd like to show up. All right. Uh Vivian cheer. Yes, please. Yes, please come forward. I don't want to mispronounce it, but thank you.

That's okay. My name is Vivian Fergen. I live at 1 19335 Lower Pleasant Ridge which is Canyon County but I have a business at the uh Caldwell airport and I'm going to come from a little bit different perspective and that is that for the last probably six years we have been waiting waiting waiting for funds for things to happen at the airport for the general aviation and we're always told there's nothing in the budget for us and then to see this come about is is kind of disheartening. So, I just wanted to let you know that as much as we've worked, I know Diana has worked, Chuck has worked with us, Jeff has been with us, they know exactly what we've done, what what's going on out there, and yet we're proposing funds for something like this, which really isn't. I mean, I understand Indian Creek's wonderful. This is great what's happened, but there's other areas that really need funds. Aviation Way and Lyndon needs a light. My goodness, that's the most dangerous uh intersection. It's an off intersection and if you try to cross that, it's ridiculous. You should try to cross it at 5:00 in the afternoon. There's absolutely no way. So, there's just all kinds of different areas that we can put this these funds. and I just wanted to put that out there to you. So, thank you very much.

Uh, thank you for that, counselors. Councelor Williams. Thank you, Vivian. It's really more of a question that was budgeted, that light for Lynen and aviation. Is that still in the works? It is. It should be installed in the next two months. Yay. Thank you. Just wanted to make sure you do that. Thank you. Because we're tired of seeing people hurt and and possibly fatal. So, thank you very much for that. So, thank you. All right. Thank you. No further questions. Uh Jim Hollis tomorrow. All right. Uh Cindy Foster,

mayor and council, uh thankless job that you guys have, but I want to thank you so much for the opportunity that we as a community have a voice because we're not businesses. We're folks that live here. I was born and raised here, guys, and I'm old. Um, Cobble has always been my home and it's important to me. It matters to me. I have two big concerns here. There's lots of subconcerns, but the two big concerns is first of all safety. You guys hold that in your hands, but I'm going to ask you to hold it into your heart. And this is why with the dispersion of parking at the fairgrounds, folks, we're going to have people walking across the tracks. That's the reality of it and as we've heard from the expert witness of 36 years of driving through Caldwell on the train pedestrians is an issue and we can't think for folks to be smart but we have to do everything we can for them to be safe right so I hope that you would consider the safety factor because that's a big deal the other thing that I would like you to consider is the liability So when someone gets ran over and hit by a train, city of Cwell is going to be liable because of the safety, the zone, the quiet zone. You guys are going to be held liable. And right now, can we afford that? Can can y'all hold that in your heart to have that be okay? I'm going to tell you, I wouldn't be able to. Right now, there's already a lot of lawsuits toward the city of Caldwell. And can we afford to have a life taken or a life injured? that's real. So that has to be those two things have to be paramount. The sub state the sub um comments would be with the money can be spent someplace else.

I've heard contradictory things tonight. Seven parking spots taken or is it 150? There's a big discrepancy there. Either way, Cwell can't afford to lose a parking spot, can we? None of us. And if people are disabled like I am, it's hard to walk that far. Not lazy, disabled, different deal. Um, yeah, there can be a change in the community is learning to walk, but most of us, you know, it's just not the it's not how Cwell is. Let's keep Caldwell. Let's be smart. Let's use common sense. Let's think about our people. Think about what's best for the individual, not just businesses. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for that. Any questions from council? Councelor Stoic. Yeah, thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh our wonderful lawyer, can you answer the question? Yeah, sorry about that. As far as liability, Yeah. Thank Thank you,

Mr. Mayor. Councilman Stodd, uh we've researched this at in the city attorney's office and looking at the documentation, there's no automatic u removal for liability for installation of a quiet zone to the city. Uh the city would be responsible for its own negligence just like we are for any other improvement we do in the city or any other sort of thing. But just putting the fact that there's a quiet zone in place does not make the city automatically liable for any accidents that would take place in there. If the city has some negligence attached to that, there's potential, but like I said, it would be just like any other sort of thing that the city has anywhere else.

I come from a background of working at the prosecuting attorney's office back when dinosaurs roame the earth. Um, can we Sorry. Yeah, we're just gonna cut it off from there. Um, just just to clarify, would that also involve I believe it was mentioned earlier about failure to maintain. Is that an issue? Exactly. Failure to like if we failure to maintain that was brought up earlier during the presentation, Mr. Mayor, that that would be Yes. If the city didn't properly maintain what it was supposed to do and there could be a court liability is determined in the rearview mirror by a court. Yes.

And and the if the court determined that somehow the city's action or inaction such as a failure to maintain led to or directly contributed to some sort of damages to a person, then the city could be have liability on that. But but that would have to be determined by the specific facts of each and every case. So, as long as we budgeted, kept up the maintenance, in theory, we're covered in that side. Correct. Okay. Thank you.

All right. Next up, Bob Carpenter. Mayor, thank you, sir. Just the clock's up here. Just just as a reminder for everyone in the room. What? Just remind everyone the clock. It's up there. Just three for a minute in case anyone clock is running. Yeah. No, no. Okay. Just reminding some people forget where it's at. So, I just reminding the rest of the room.

Well, I wanted to thank Mike and Ron for the added attention. and I just love attention. So, uh I'm very proud of of uh Caldwell's progress over the last 20 years, 25 years. Change is not ever easy and always has sparked debate and we're having debate. I encourage I'm encouraged by the uh large amount of support that has come forward in favor of s of this in such a short period of time. We've only had basically two weeks that we knew that this was going to happen. I would also acknowledge the frustration of the recent past. To that I say it is in the past and now we are designing our future. I haven't heard sufficient evidence that safety would be compromised. I also believe that the broader sense as Bob said we have a lot in common. I do not support negatism or name calling and don't like that that's where we've gotten by any we must approach the issue with uh logic not a motion. I ask that council to pass the uh quiet zone as it's presented.

Okay, that's it. Uh thank you sir. Any questions from council? No. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that very much. Um, Randall Crawford.

All right. Um, April Long. Okay. Mike I don't want to. It starts with an R. I don't want to slaughter the last name. Is Mike here? Oh, R I O N. Um, Deianne, sorry. Uh, Judy Witworth. Yes, that's me.

Okay. This is not a real one, but it does suffice. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. and council. My attire is not to be mocked any re for any reason. I am dressed like the days of old as a railroad man. The one that comes to mind is Casey Jones. He has become a legend. Gave his life for a cause the best he knew how. In those days, they used detonators and lanterns to stop a train. I brought the lantern, thought against the detonator. We have come a long ways from lanterns and detonators. There are many ways to warn people today. The trains today are faster, longer, and louder. And create a quiet zone is not one of the ways to warn people. Horns, noise, and gates at crossings are all the ways. People are going to be people. Even with the best of intentions, there are going to be deaths. My nephew is a conductor. Not sure if he travels in Idaho or not, but I must say his train, him as the conductor, ran over a human being and killed him. My nephew still to this day has visions. His recovery is still ongoing from that tragedy. He is not an island, so there are others that this has happened to like his twin brother who got hit by a train with no horn. Like I said, even with the best intentions, death happens.

Why does anyone in their right mind want to add to that drama and is beyond me. I am here to say no to the quiet zone and thank you all for listening to my story and looking at my lantern. Thank you. Any questions from council? All right. Thank you for that and thank you for not bringing the explosives. That would have been awkward. Uh Tracy Casper.

Good evening. My name is Tracy Casper. I have a company over at 524 Cleveland in the Cornerstone building and for those of us who remember the old Sears building. I grew up in Caldwell. I love my little town, my now not so little town, but I also made sure that my kids grew up here as well. So, they attended Caldwell Schools, something I'm very super proud of because this is where I wanted to raise them. I wanted them to have the values that Caldwell has. I wanted them to experience everything that Caldwell has. But I do have to take one more step back from the Indian Creek to just one more decade before that. I was chairman of the Caldwell Chamber Board in 2009. I'm a realtor. So, starting in about 2008, it got really rough and then nine and then 10 and then 11 and then 12 and there was five years where it was really, really rough. So, I got involved and I was on that chamber board and working so closely with those businesses. We tried so hard because we already had the nightlight parade. How do we get all of those people to just stick around and go to those businesses? They didn't. They didn't want to. We had to figure out a way for those businesses to have patrons come to their doors. We worked so closely with them and had these big dreams. These big dreams that came true with a plaza, a vibrant downtown, restaurants that actually wanted to come in, businesses that wanted to be here. We made it, and not without all of the work that you've heard already tonight. But here we are at a new crossroads. across words where there are so many other companies that are looking at us and a few of which who have already said I can't these are professional businesses that want to come in here I used to be for 20 years down at the Willows building and if I was on a call and the train was going by all I had to do is

say hang on and you put them on hold on it's it's almost gone wait there's one right behind it because it was going the other direction so we have experienced that and those companies can't afford that so we do lose them. This is an opportunity. Put the business side away. We only dreamt. In fact, the city council created a downtown corridor zone that allowed for living. What? What? Living in downtown Caldwell. We never imagined that. And having the condos and having the apartments where people could live here, walk to the coffee shops, walk to their businesses, maybe even work from home. There is a quality of life situation here where we can absolutely give those people who want to live, work, and play here that chance to do that. We just, and thank you, by the way, for passing the urban renewal district that you did, what I've heard now dubbed the garden district, which is everything between here and the freeway. What an opportunity. in in addition to the lights and to the parks and to the other infrastructure that you're already planning to be able to give them a quality of life I am almost done a quality of life where they can have that peaceful living that they also deserve and thank you very much

thank you for that any councelor Denber

Mr. Mr. Mayor Tracy, thank you very much for your contribution. I uh didn't see you behind that camera that this news lady here had in the way, so I would have recognized you with the other great leaders in our community. And so, thank you for uh holding out those tough years between 2007 and 2010 where the housing market was terrible. The city was also going through a financially rough time at the time and I think uh the chief was uh fully aware of the cutbacks that had to take place and so we want to be ever aware of what happens when there's a large dip in our economy and that we should not forget what happens even when there's a small dip in our economy what that may what that may do. But uh my question for you is I uh I hear all the time people saying if you don't like the train whistle just move just move out of the way. Uh Tracy, tell me a little bit why it is that people who live down in that area just can't just move.

Some of those people inherited those homes. There's no way they have the funds to be able to relocate. For some of them, it is the place that they can afford. For some of them, they want to be near a job that they can work or walk to or bike to without having to have automatic transportation. For some of them, they've just lived here their whole lives. They don't know anything different. I I can't answer every single one of those situations, but I know that there are people who want to be here. They want to live here. Whether it's out of necessity or out of desire, they should have that opportunity to do so and have that quiet zone so that they can have that quality of life while they're here. I can't imagine having a 2-year-old or a baby. I just can't. So, the other question that I have is kind of something that somebody else brought up with regards to uh uh Scott brought up with regards to uh Tillian and uh residents saying, "I just don't want to live here because of the the noise or whatever the case may be." Uh and and you and I haven't rehearsed this conversation or anything, have we? No. Uh I is isn't there clear indication research data out there that shows the long-term effects that people who live in uh undervalued and underrepresented areas and uh what what improving those areas could do to a larger area.

I will use Caldwell. Um in fact, she's in this room. Um Mrs. Carpenter, Elaine Carpenter. Does anyone remember when she and a group of people got together to put together the uh historical district?

She does. And they put together, and the reason I know a lot about this is because if you ever list a house in there, she comes to visit you to tell you that you're in the historical district and to make sure as the realtor you're disclosing that so that that new owner understood what their responsibility was for living in that area. And I do remember thinking when I first heard that, holy cow, does anyone remember what that area kind of looked like before it was the historical district. It is amazing when someone fixes up a home or a building or anything in an area that the neighbor next door says, "Shoot, I should probably wash my windows. I should probably rake the yard. I should probably I should probably." It is transformative to watch when people come together because they do become very proud of where they live. Elaine and her group gave those people that lived and owned property in that district such a gift because it has just transformed. I like to call us a 20-year overnight success. We notice it when it's done. We don't notice it so much while we're building it. And we are at one of those crossroads now.

Great. So, with regards to uh what you just spoke about about improving that community, and I think the council did a remarkable job by uh by approving that central urban renewal agency, um do you think that the quiet zone plays into that uh whole improvement of that area?

No question. No question. And as I saw and heard all of the different um ideas that were coming out of that urban renewal meeting with the lights, with the parks, with the widening of streets, this only makes sense. If people want to really love where they are and start to really invest where they are and they start to see all of these things happening, this will only add to the reason why they will come here or investors come in or the people who own those that are renting them, fix them up 100%. Tracy, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you for that. Any other questions? Thank you. All right. Thank you,

Miss Nancy Roberts. Left my behind. Good evening, mayor and council. I'm Nancy Roberts. I live in Caldwell about a quarter of a block from the train. And yes, it's loud. I don't I'm not in favor of the quiet zone as it's being presented. I think that we have a safety issue that is massive. I watch every day and evening uh quite a number of people who are handicapped trying to get across the tracks and it takes time and it's difficult even as it is now when they have a pretty long time of safety because you can hear those trains way down the track and um most of the time the crossing arms do work but they don't always so that's a bit of a problem. So the situation a lot of times is not that we have a culture of people who don't want to walk. We have a pretty big uh group of people who are not able to walk very well or not able to walk at all. And so they're using various mobility devices and um I just don't see how they can get across those tracks unless we have uh the gates. We need the gates. We need the lights. We need the signage. And with this plan, there are just medians and curbs, no gates. Those people are not going to have a prayer of getting across those tracks. And so we have uh many people that Roger Brooks calls mobility challenged and we have groups of children going back and

forth. We have a lot of elderly people like myself who are uh not walking quickly enough to run across those tracks. I just think that's where your big safety issue is. And by taking the lowest bid or a low bid when you have $400,000 at your disposal, I don't think it is reasonable at all when you haven't addressed the safety issues for those for that those groups of people. And um hope this is not out of order, but Mr. Brooks stated in an email that Roger Brooks that gates are not required. That safety is not required, but he would side with the mayor that they should be added. And my response is a resounding yes, they certainly should be added. And the gates and the signage need to be at every crossing. Um the residents of North Caldwell need those items at all crossings between uh Campbell and 21st or actually Fifth and 21st. uh surely it's not the intent to further restrict those residents ability to easily and safely access all areas of this city. So I would again suggest that we use if you're going to do it use all the money and maybe you need more. I don't know but you need to get those gates in there for the people who are not able to be completely able. I think that's enough for this evening. Uh, thank you for that. Council, any questions? Councelor Denver.

Mr. Mayor, thank you. My question is more for Bruce. Bruce, uh, uh, Miss Roberts said that there the only thing that would be there is some curbing, but we still have the gates. Is that correct? And we still have the signage and we still have all the pedestrian signage. The only thing we're doing, we're not taking anything away. We're just adding curbing. Is that correct? That's correct. I'm not sure. She's not talking about pedestrian gates. Oh, you're talking about the pedestrian gates. pedestrian gates. Okay. Thank you.

Because those traits are the trains are coming very fast. So even if you are able on my good days is it gets there before you can hardly believe it. You have to really move to get across the tracks and not everybody's going to drive. We have a lot of we have a large walking population. People these days are walking more um just to try and stay healthy. But it's for the handicapped and the women with strollers and uh those groups of kids and everybody else that are trying to get across the tracks. I don't think that the plan as it is set is safe.

You have a um Thank you for your question by the way and thank you Mr. Mills. You have a unique perspective where you live. When events happen downtown, I know there's a parking lot not far from your residence. Do you see an increase of traffic across the tracks? Do you see people spilling over further, especially if we were to restrict parking like mentioned earlier? Not restrict but reduce. Do you think there's going to be more foot traffic? And would you see that from where your vantage points at?

I don't particularly see that there would be more traffic because those parking areas are south of the tracks and the most of the places that people want to go in downtown Caldwell are in south of the tracks. So they're not going to be coming to the north. You have a track a parking lot just north of the tracks right by you. Correct. Well, that's true. That's true. And it's it gets used an awful lot. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate your comment. Next is going to be Cassie Collier. Casey. Sorry. Casey. Casey in here.

Carla Frank. All right. Um Chrissy, Michelle Beck, Oie Baldazo. All right. Um Kim, is there a Kim? Starts with last of H. Sorry, some of these are scribbled out. Oh, sorry. There you go. Now I know who you're talking about. Uh, please come forward.

Hi, Mayor and Council. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. My name is Kim Haznarl or Kim H, and I am the executive director for Caldwell Fine Arts. Um, I am in support of the Quiet Zone. There are a lot of um situations in downtown Caldwell that may not be as impacted by a train whistle as the arts. Um I'll use the Nutcracker as an example. When we have the Nutcracker, we have 70% of the people that come to that are from outside of Caldwell. My dream for downtown Caldwell is to have a venue. I'd love to have a new venue in Caldwell. I think it's so important to grow um the economy for economic development. People that come in, go to a show, go out to eat. If I'm having the Nutcracker there and the train whistle goes in the middle of it, depending on where the venue is, um those people aren't going to think it's charming or quaint or historical. It's going to ruin their experience. And so, um when I send out a survey after the show, I'll guarantee you I'll hear about it. Um, it's one thing to sit at the Flying M and hear a train whistle. It's another to actually be um buying a ticket or attending an event and have to listen to it. Um, I also think at some point we'll have other outdoor venues in downtown Caldwell. And the sound will definitely impact that. And so I just would like to um just say I'm in support of the Quiet Zone. Thank you.

Thank you, Kim. Any questions from council? All right, Jean Krying. Good evening, Jean Krybring. I want to thank you for this opportunity and your time. Honestly, as I stand before you, I'm concerned and more opposed to the process or procedure. This whole scenario is backwards. Why are we even discussing a quiet zone when there isn't a development plan approved for moving forward? In formulating the Roger Brooks plan, there has been no formal public outreach feedback within a workshop or online survey. According to theou, there were supposed to be citizen representatives to assist or give feedback during the idea phase. That didn't happen either. Granted, Roger Brooks may be an expert, but not necessarily for Caldwell. More importantly, no plan has been approved nor adopted. We need a plan first, not a quiet zone. Truly, I feel that the citizens are most upset because we haven't been given the whole picture nor all the necessary information and then to find out that a few individuals are scheming trying to buy up land before the public finds out. plus developers have already been consulted prior to any type of future plan approval. This is inappropriate. Again, backwards. I've been told I'm not in favor of change because I ask questions and I want truthful answers. I'm all for change if I have complete information and appropriate research. We don't have that. Now, concerning the quiet zone, there is a lot of confusion and plenty of misinformation. First of all, some emails and communications state six crossings, seven crossings, or eight

crossings, just exactly how many crossings. Next, the citizens were told that anything within 60 ft of the downed arm would need to be curbed. I did my due diligence and took my tape measure out to realize the ramifications of this railroad protocol. We will be losing complete parking lots per this guideline. We already are in need of more parking and the quiet zone will cause us to lose parking. This should be a red flag. And why are we not considering complete safety measures for pedestrians or ADA compliance? Will this be just like the students hit in the school zones? Now Caldwell is scrambling to make school zones safer. This will be the exact same scenario in the future of the quiet zone without pedestrian safety measures from the start. And what about maintenance and insurance? Secondly, we have been told we have to have the quiet zone for HUD housing. I don't recall any HUD housing in the non-approved plan. HUD housing can be built outside of a half mile from the tracks without any sound studies. Lastly, we were told by the superintendent of the Dirt Lot Hotel that commercial builders know how to build for noise and vibration mitigation. Why then are we being told that we have to have a quiet zone in order to attract development? Someone is not telling us the complete truth. Please 86 this quiet zone until we know how the city plans to proceed with a future development plan. Thank you.

Thank you for that. Let's hold the clapping. Any questions from council. All right. Stand by. Um, Mr. Rob Pilot,

mayor, members of council, thanks for your time tonight. Rob pilot uh 11 102 Arthur here in Cwell. Uh I've got kind of a prepared statement so I can get it into three minutes. Um we all know that Cwell was built around the railroad and uh growing up here many of us had the sound of the trains as a soundtrack to the experiences we had in Cwell. And you know that nostalgia is important. It's a part of our history. But tonight and this decision isn't about preserving nostalgia. It has to also be about good governance because we have to take an honest look at what it takes for Carl to remain healthy, to remain stable, and address the obstacles that stand in our way as a community. We all understand the long list of needs that you're faced with every day. We need a parking structure. Infrastructurees behind schools, first responders being hired, maintaining a quality of life for the residents expect. None of those are optional and none of them are getting less expensive as we move forward in the future. Downtown is one of the few places that we can address those needs by strengthening our tax base without expanding into agricultural lands or absorbing the infrastructure cost that urban renewal or urban sprawl causes. The city and this community have already invested in the downtown success and a quiet zone would build on that investment by strengthening the commercial foundation that supports the city's budget. That matters because when commercial investment grows, it generates the sales and property tax revenue needed to fund these priorities and relieves pressure on the residential tax base. When it doesn't, those costs don't disappear, they just get shipped to our homes. Obviously, safety must remain the top priority in this endeavor. And I'm not an expert on crossing zones,

and I'm not an expert on trains, but I have faith in the employees of Cwell and and Director Mills that this does that. The quiet zone requires enhanced protections and federal approval. The railroad and the FRA, they wouldn't have approved this designation if those standards were not satisfied. Thousands of communities under operate under this same framework. We're not lowering the safety standards. It's just meeting them in a different manner. I don't know what Cowwell's future looks like as we shape the vision together as a community. We have the responsibility to make decisions now so that we're prepared and in control of whatever paths we ultimately take. Supporting the quiet zone proposal is a reasonable and responsible step towards strengthening our foundation represents smart growth and positions call for that future. And I would stand for questions if you have any.

Uh thank you for that, sir. Um councelor Denber, Mr. Mayor, Mr. Pilot, thank you very much for uh for your involvement in the community and for uh for all that you do. You come from a long and storied history of people who uh who uh uh who displayed successful business models and I don't know of any person more than you uh who probably knows how to effectively use a spreadsheet and do uh financial forecasting. It's all about the numbers.

You and I have disagreed on some things in the past. One of them being you're in it for the long game. And some of us don't want to see the long game. We want to see something uh more uh immediate. But in all of your business dealings and all that you've done in this community with regards to uh uh uh the things that you've brought about, uh do you think that the quiet zones help project this community, project Caldwell where it needs to be for the next 25 years? Well, um I think that we have a long list of things that need to be taken care of and we need to figure out how to pay for it. And I don't think anyone in this room wants to have to flip the bill for a parking garage. So, I think if we're smart and we have a plan and we can encourage the development that we want to see happen on our terms and get them to pay for those things, then I'm all for it. And I think that the quiet zone is a stumbling point to continue to see the next level for downtown Cwell.

So in your opinion, it's a hurdle that we need to overcome in order to get to the next steps of where we need to be to have businesses pay for the development. I agree. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Um, next speaker is going to be and thank you for your comments by the way, Roberts. All right. Um, Mark Zack is Mark here.

Michelle Bratton. All right. Gina Bosco. Randy Ner.

Good evening, Mayor and Council. Uh Randy Ner, a 507 Dishman, uh citizen of Caldwell. I wanted to debunk a few of the things that I've seen online about the quiet zone. Um and uh what it represents. One of them being that it's rich uh rich out of state developers that are coming in and doing this. Um I can tell you as as somebody that grew up in Caldwell, born in Caldwell, raised his family in Caldwell, and now as a business owner of Caldwell, it isn't rich out of state developers that benefit from businesses and properties and developers coming in. Right now, one of one of my various companies, we're doing work on three buildings in downtown Caldwell. In the past, I've done work on about eight buildings in downtown Caldwell. Quite a bit, substantial work on them. That has fed my family. But not only has it fed my family, it's fed my plumbers's family, my HVAC guys family, my roofer's family, my mason's family, my concrete guys family. So this development that comes to downtown, not only does it bring tax base like Mr. Pilot and Mr. Jenkins has brought up, but it also brings local economy, the people that eat downtown. Um, I have seven employees and five of my seven employees live in the city limits of Caldwell. So, we spend our money here. We live here. Everything's here. So, it's not just out of state developers that this affects. It does affect us locally um at a grassroots level. Um, I'm also going to debunk another thing. Uh, one it was just brought up. I sit on the advisory board for the airport that we have uh needs at the airport and we do have needs at the airport. We have brought those needs forward. Uh this council saw graciously to uh budget $200,000 for our airport this year. Side topic. I don't want to get down that road, but that has need has been met. When I left to come here today, the interstate of or the intersection of Lynon and Aviation, terrible. Took me 15 minutes to get across it. We do need a stoplight. Power's going in. I see it every day when I drive by it. That stoplight, like

Bruce said, is coming very shortly. So again, these needs have been met. But these needs are met because of a tax base. in this tax base. We all know uh Councilman Stoddock and I talk quite a bit about this about our unbalance in the tax base between residential and commercial. And we need that commercial. We need more of it. I need it selfishly for my business to to prosper, for my guys to work, for payrolls to be made, for my plumber, my HVAC guy. We we work really hard to employ a lot of Caldwell citizens when we do these jobs. and and yeah, there's a selfish avenue to that, but it does affect us on a grassroots level. Um there's a lot of emotion here. I know it was said in a city council meeting just last week about fear-mongering and how we were tired of it and and I agree with when that was said. There is a lot of fear-mongering and so much emotion put to a lot of these decisions. I'm here to say let's continue that, not have more fear-mongering about even this decision, not just about annexation decisions. And my time is up so please no questions.

Thank you sir. Any questions from council? Councelor Stodd. Thanks guys. Mr. Ner that was a good presentation. I have to admit uh most of us know that we don't have any specialties in concrete and how to lay it and how to keep it. Uh if this thing is approved, would you be willing to uh lack of better words, donate some time and material to uh put in those uh cross walks that we need across the tracks or at least contribute to the uh how to do it right.

Yes. Um my specialty is not in concrete. Um many of you know I happen to be an electrical contractor as well as a building contractor. Um, yes, I would because I'm actually very in favor of donating my skills and my knowledge at the airport through electrical. If it's in my wheelhouse, I give to this city. I I'm a I've put my money where my mouth is, much like Mr. Pilot, Mr. Jenkins. Um, I'm a big investor in Caldwell. You can't do more than than what you do with your pocketbook. So, I would help out in any way I could. Um, we are a public works licensed contractor. I would even do work for at a huge discount just to cover cost for the help of the city. I do that now. I do it for churches. I do it for schools. I would continue that philanthropy.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. So, you got me on the record on that one. All right. Scott Gibson. Gibson. Sorry. myself. Uh, thank you for that. And we do have your letter. Um, Aaron Vance.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Councilman. Uh, at this point, um, probably everything I'm going to say sounded redundant this late in the night. Um, I'm a third generation business owner in Caldwell. My family has been here for so many years, built multiple businesses in this area and worked them. I'm probably one of the younger business owners around here. Um, or not around here, but here tonight. And, um, I'm here to say I'm in favor of the quiet zone. I've talked to a lot of people about it. One thing with my business is I get to talk to a lot of investors and a lot of people trying to come into Caldwell. And one thing I'm advocate for, you know, in multiple different ways is making uh a better avenue for more businesses in Caldwell. And I think this might be one of those ways we can do it. I know my business is directly on the tracks. I constantly, as Tracy pointed out, have to silence my phones, stop conversations, and I can bet that not one of you has been walking around downtown Caldwell having a conversation where you had to pause and wait for a train and wait for those sounds to stop while you're doing it. So, I think this is a good start, but I point out that there's a lot of uh I agree with the fact that there's a lot of things that we definitely need to work on here in Colorado. The parking being one of them. I bring that up constantly. Um talking to various peoples in in the community and a lot of investors and business owners bring that up too. If they're going to come down here and invest, what is what uh does have planned to fix that? That cannot be fixed overnight. that cannot be fixed even in this but it needs to be pointed out that uh yes it's a issue and hopefully we can work towards it. Um I guess yeah at that point I don't really have much more because everything has kind of been said but I do want to say I am in favor of this.

Any questions from council? Just uh to further you guys also have a unique perspective. You see a lot of traffic on 21st. What is your thoughts on the pedestrian gates have been mentioned tonight? Well, um, speaking to what happened, unfortunately, I did, my business did catch what happened at that accident. Um, and police did show up. Those horns were blaring non-stop. And it didn't stop that gentleman from deciding that he wanted to turn around to pick up his cigarettes. That's what he stopped and turned around for. one that, you know, based on a a right decision, he would have he rushed across those tracks. When the horns go, it doesn't exactly deter people. A lot of the accidents that do happen is because people are trying. They're impatient. So, it does come down to personal responsibility. And I hate to say it that way. I wish that these things didn't happen. People should value their lives more than that. And the more we can put in the way to stop them, people drive with uh their stereos going constantly. Uh I did my own research. The the m vast majority of these accidents that happen happen when there are not crossings, happen in areas that don't have uh don't have the signals. And I have friends that live there and they tell me these horror stories. So I feel like putting in more barriers is a good thing in any way. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of maybe pedestrian barrier on specifically on 21st we have those are areas where we have a lot of traffic with the new parking lot there going across there. Yes, those all of those people walk right through my parking lot. There are thousands and so maybe a good compromise might be looking at that specific one for those big large events. Um I don't necessarily want the city to incur more costs. I I don't like that at all. A lot of the decisions that I have to look at

and make, that's a big issue for me, too, is those extra costs. So, but at the same time, safety is important. One thing that didn't get brought up is when I talked about the horn is on 22nd, um my cameras caught video of a girl horn started going for the train. There's not even a crossing at 22nd, but a young girl decided that she was going to try and beat a train and decided to Dukes of Hazard jump over the train tracks into our new parking lot there. So barriers aside, accidents still unfortunately do happen because people are people. So

all right, thank you for that. Um, looks like we have time and I'll ask council. We have about 10 more speakers. Um, do we want to stop it?

I would like to stay in here everybody. I know we've gone off on some pretty major side conversations that have taken up a lot of time. So I'm happy to stay. And just to clarify for a workshop before we continue, um, not all council has to be present. In fact, even an elected official doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong. Just a city official. I will stay longer to hear everyone else. Um, but if other council members, because we scheduled it till 8, you would feel free to leave if uh need be. Okay. Councelor Tilmont will have to leave. And this will be on the record, too. So, council can go back and listen to it if need be. Mayor, 10 uh more people is 30 minutes. Could you run through the list real quick and see if all of them wish to testify?

Yeah, actually that's a good idea. Um, Will Anderson, would you uh I'm not going to call up yet, but do you still want to testify? Okay, Glenn, just real quick. Uh, Glenn Co, Coach Coach, uh, do we just want to go ahead and call him up? Just real quick. Um, yeah. Dave Dave Moore. Yes. Okay. Mark Pemble, he wrote sure. He's in support. Uh, Julie Warick, I'll take a minute. Okay. Um, Melinda Garcia,

I'll take a minute. Carlos Hernandez. Um, Jen Erley. Jen Erley. Uh, and TJ Erley. Are they both? So that that takes it down. Yeah. So it's up to you guys. Okay. Here. We'll uh come here. Just 1250. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh Melinda, do you want to go ahead and

Hi, I'm Melinda Garcia and I live on 14th um and Cleveland. So I am definitely in the train zone and as an individual I and along with my neighbors often are trying to speak over the sound of the train or um watching the train rattle things in our house and part of living in the historic district is the charm of the train tracks. But I think that it's a no-brainer for our community to take care of each other um by having the quiet zones implemented. I think it's got some real health benefits for people who live near the tracks. It seems like it would um increased investments of people being able to uh infill and live closer and I think that has some good tax benefits and and will cut down sprawl. But I think that it it's pretty clear it would be safer um for um people that are inclined to try and beat the train and um those who are going to find a way around it are going to find a way around it. that Dukes of Hazard story was kind of upsetting. So, it seems like that we can never completely get rid of that, but if we can make it safer for people, I think it's a great investment for our community and I'm in favor of it. Thank you.

Thank you, Will Anderson. I didn't know I was signing up to uh make remarks, but uh I'm Will Anderson, 21326 Oolena uh Caldwell, not in the city. Um I moved over here about 15 years ago and before that time I was over in Boise. Before that time, uh, Cowwell did not have a good reputation and, uh, with the event of Roger Brooks coming, this city has just come huge distance. And so I'm a big proponent of Roger Brooks and his plans. And, uh, one of the one part of that which very much interests me is his um, his pathway, I believe. Well, I can't think of the name he calls it, but anyway, the pathway down Indian Creek all the way to the fairgrounds. It's a wonderful thing. One aspect of that is a underpass, a pedestrian underpass around that uh um parking lot that everybody keeps worrying about the parking in and with reason. Anyway, the underpass there would handle a huge part of this issue and I am very much in favor of the quiet zones. I think they'll uh put this city leaps and bounds of where ahead of where it is now. So, thank you.

Uh any questions for council? Do you want to go ahead and call state your name please?

Make a little introduction before we start my time. I applaud you gentlemen and lady for the job you have to do. It's not easy. You have to make the tough decisions but you have to be responsible. You have to be judiciary responsibility. In other words, if we decide to grow cobble to the next level, what's the most important question? We have to have the money to do that. So you guys have tough questions, tough and decisions to make. So I suggest that we use wisdom, we use your experience, and don't forget about safety. Okay. Thank you. Anything from council? Thank you for

That was my introduction. That's okay. So all right. Um, we'll give you a few extra seconds. Go ahead.

Thank you. If you can reset my clock. So, I want to appeal to you people tonight factually and emotionally. My brother-in-law three years ago was killed by a train just west of Cowell. He was driving a concrete truck or not a concrete truck, but a semi for Nampa asphalt and paving. Okay. We got the phone call from Dave or um Mr. Woods, know him personally. Had to explain to my wife that your brother was in an accident with a train what hospital is in. No, he's dead. That train because of the weight and the speed that these freight trains go through Cwell are deadly weapons. Now, Scott, you can raise your eyes. You can believe or not what I'm saying here. Back to the legal issue with Oscar. The first time a person gets dragged through Caldwell, mangled, a mess, a total mess, a bloody mess, a creative defense attorney will find and define negligence. Mark my word, this could be really ugly. Now, we have created up to this point the previous administration a safe cowwell with growth. Diana makes a good common sense comment. We did that without a safety zone. Think about it. The safety zone will benefit financially a lot of businesses. I could as a professional witness for the PUC years ago. I dealt with Union Pacific. They're not interested in safety. It's all about the bottom

dollar. We tried to get a a gate out here where my brother-in-law was killed. Not enough deaths. They're not going to do it. Not going to spend the money. So instead of making financial decisions based on conflict of interest in business decisions because all these guys that are all over the railroad track are support of it. Let me just real quick I want to give you another 30 seconds since we get interrupted. Sorry.

Um I think we we we really need concentrate on safety here. Why do we have to give up safety in a quiet zone for financial gain? Who's going to gain from this? These guys along the railroad track sell their businesses. They will gain the residents and the people that cross those tracks every day will not benefit. I stand for questions. Any questions from council? All right. Thank you, sir, for your comments. We appreciate it. Glenn, wait. Sorry. Um Dave Moore, let's let's get Glenn up here.

Sorry. Thank you. Would you please come forward? Mr. Mayor and Council members, just so everybody knows, this is uh former Canyon County Commissioner Glenn Cotch. Thank you, Glenn Cotch, for coming here tonight.

It's fun to brag. I'll be 100 years old this year. I own seven properties in downtown Cwell that are under the LI assessment. Seven. So I have a vital interest in what is happening and what has happened to downtown Cwell. I used to have a business down on Fifth and Main Street close to the railroad track. One glorious Monday morning, I think it was. There was a huge explosion, just earth shattering. I knew instinctively what it was. a train had smashed into a semi truck and you can imagine the the devastation that that caused. I'll never forget that. I'm just wondering. We're worried about money. But have we placed a price on a life? Have we priced a price on a living person? Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Um, any questions from councel? Appreciate it. Thank you, sir. And congratulations on making it to uh 100. We all I would hope to aspire to that someday. Uh Dave Moore Uh David Moore, 7-Eleven East Denver Caldwell. Uh I'm the guy that I think my friend Ron Dylan said that I uh voted for a $20,000 a month payment to Roger Brooks, which uh nobody in our urban renewal commission did that. So I once again it things get taken out of proportion out of context. uh as I go through this uh I've lived down in uh on that side of the tracks down there for seven eight years and lived here my entire life uh over 50 years. Uh safety I think safety is the biggest thing that uh I want to u instill. I've lost more than anybody here in this room tonight uh with my family with through an accident. So I don't want to see anybody have an accident. I don't want to have any anxiety over any of these kind of meetings and and and discussion of accidents. So, that that's important to me. Uh uh city employee Bruce uh he he talked about uh it being more safe. So, I I went down on my bike and I I walked every uh intersection from fourth down to Lyndon and I looked at that and I think in a a quiet zone would be an improvement to those intersections and some arms. I think it'd be money well spent. uh 230 some thousand then we have what 400,000 allocated. So I think it's I I think it's a a ne necessity. Um you know the the amount of money that's been invested in downtown uh with urban

renewal, what is it? 300 $350 million uh has been invested in in this downtown area to get it to where it is today. Uh as Mrs. Casper said, I think that's important. Um I've worked down here. I've lived on Maine. I've lived across from the the plaza for 5 years of my life. I've I've worked down here for four years of my life with the bank. Uh it's a disruption to hear that train. It's not nostalgic. It's it's a disruption. Uh people that are trying to put buildings in, they're having to put more of a barrier to in order to not have to put somebody on a pause if you're on a conference call. So, uh there's an expense to to to the that noise. Um, as I live across the street, excuse me, across the railroad tracks. Um, gosh, last night, uh, I I wrote it all down and and it woke me up at 10 after 12. That train sets and the horn goes off every 15 minutes for an hour straight. Uh, and it blares for 10 to 15 minutes. So, it it's a disruption. The noise pollution that's down there. I don't know how people can get up and go to work. I don't know how people can study, kids can study, students can study. There's just so many things there with the impact of that of that uh of that noise. Um so, uh I I just hope that we can uh come together and and and uh leave here tonight and not uh stretch stretch things or stretch the truth or stretch the facts and and go forward. So that's it.

Thank you. Is there any questions for council? Thank you. Not one question. Thank you. Thank you. Um, did I call Will Anderson yet? Sorry, forgot to check it off. Um, Carlos Hernandez.

Well, hello everyone. It's good to see you again. My name is Carlos Hernandez. I live on 3906 Brian Avenue and I am here in strong support of the quiet zone. Uh I think that it's not just about reducing noise, it's about smart, long-term planning for a city that's growing and deserves infrastructure and reflects this growth. I'm also uh I sit on the parking committee and so I'm so excited to be working with President Register um as we help the city find these parking spots and move our city in a positive way forward. So, a quiet zone requires upgrades to the railroad crossing, improved gates, medians, we've been talking about that. These aren't just cosmetic changes. They are permanent safety improvements that protect our residents for decades to come. They reduce accidents at these crossings and they signal to developers, businesses, and most importantly families that are locating and are here in Caldwell that the city is investing in itself. Quiet zones also directly support economic development. neighborhoods near railroad corridors that today suffer from horn blasts as Dave Moore was talking about for hours become more livable, more attractive, and more valuable. That means stronger property tax revenue, which we want, more local investments, and a better quality of life for everyone in our community. Now, I want to talk to all of you. Um, you are elected to represent the residents and citizens of Caldwell. All of our citizens, not just the ones who show up and are the loudest at these meetings, not just the ones who send you

a million emails. Sorry that you get your 30 emails a day. Uh, but everyday residents who are awoken at 2 am, who can't enjoy their backyards, and who have been quietly hoping someone would do something about it. The loudest voice in the room is not always the most representative one. I urge you to look at the full picture, the surveys, the community conversation, the residents who support this but aren't always able to come to these meetings who don't always have the time and sometimes don't have um the comfortability to be able to stand at a podium to connect with you. So, I believe pursuing this quiet zone is the right direction for Caldwell's future. I ask you to move forward with confidence and trust that the broader community is behind you. Thank you.

Thank you. Any questions from council?

All right. Thank you for that. Um, there's a James that lives at a 724 address. Um, I can't make out the last name. Yes, I'm she's down at the bottom. We're gonna finish. Um, so James is not here. Carlos is done. Mark Pimple. Mark's not here. All right. Just make sure. All right, Julie. This will be our last one for the evening. Hi guys. I'll keep it short so you can get out of here. Julie Warwick. I'm going to come at it from three different perspectives. Um my first is as the executive director of Caldwell Meals on Wheels, I do agree that pedestrian gates need to be added there. And I spoke to some of our folks that receive meals that live at the Belmont Apartments who frequently have to walk across those tracks and it's frightening for them. Um some of them don't hear well. Uh, I could witness that because we'll knock and knock and knock on those doors before they finally come. So, um, you know, that the train whistle helps, but not a lot, but the pedestrian gates would be a roadblock right in their way that would tell them don't proceed. So, I think that's important. I'm I'm in support of the quiet zone as long as we have those pedestrian gates. Number two, I'm looking at it from the standpoint of an urban renewal commissioner um who says that anything that we can do to help businesses and property owners in the downtown area with property values which increases tax base is good with um encouraging investment that folks don't want to do in areas that are really noisy because although HUD doesn't it doesn't prohibit

it within a certain amount of space from the tracks Um, builders have to use different building materials, um, different windows that are more sound resistant. Um, so it it's important to do this to to help with all of that. Um, I didn't write anything, you can probably tell. And third, I'll come at it with a personal viewpoint. I live at 13th and Arthur. That's about a block and a half from the tracks. I've lived in Caldwell 45 years. 39 of them have been at that address. Um, it honestly doesn't bother me except in the summertime or the springtime when we have the windows open and you can't hear on the telephone and you can't hear the the the TV when it's going. Um, being outside is a little problematic, but you get used to that after a while. The one the one bad thing I said is raising a daughter who grew up in that house, was born and raised there. She's now 29. Um the the worst thing that it did to her was the fact that she can now sleep through any alarm clock anytime and it does not wake her up. So um you know I don't know if that's good or bad at this point. Um but I I'm in support of the quiet zone. It's another improvement that Caldwell needs to make along our path to making our city greater and I think we should definitely do it.

Thank you for that. Any questions from council? Thank you. Bruce, do you have just a moment to come back up? Mr. Mills,

just real quick, um, could you restate we there's been a lot of folks talk about they would be in support of pedestrian crossing gates. I mean, obviously that's something we'd have to look at budgetary wise, but what was the price again on that and the feasibility of that? Um there are different types, but the automated gates that actually come down just like the the uh the automated gates over the road are $2 to $300,000 per crossing. There are other um much less expensive options of using fences to offset. Um, I could send some sketches or something, but but but to do with the actual automated gates that come down at two to 300,000 per crossing.

Okay. Any questions on that price? Councelor Denver. Mr. Mayor, Bruce, thank you. So, regardless of whether or not you do a pedestrian crossing or not, these traffic meetings are still necessary. They're still the key component of the quiet zone. Yes, it's a requirement. And so, so even if we were to compartmentalize what's done today or what we're talking about today, the traffic medians, that would still have to be done with the pedestrian crossings. Also, we couldn't we couldn't just throw out the throw out the traffic medians in lie of a pedestrian crossing.

I I don't quite understand. I'm sorry. Uh I mean basically the to to we have approval of the quiet zone with the medians pedestrian um changes are not a requirement of the quiet zone. Okay. Yeah. And just to finish on that so if we move forward if council moves forward because obviously the legislative body um is this permanent and are you familiar like could it be undone right? Are we studying something permanent in place? In addition, do you know any municipalities that have gone backwards or they all stayed the course with it?

I I don't know that I don't with a thousand different ones, I couldn't say if somebody went backwards, but I'm not aware of any that have gone backwards.

All right. Thank you. Any other questions from council? Thank you everyone for being here tonight. I know it's been a long night, but we did get through everybody. We are going to be back on it at 5 to 8 tomorrow. We do have one counselor that's not going to be able to attend. Uh, council all good. And just so everyone's aware, when we scheduled this, can we hold it now? We're not finished quite yet. Just so we know, when we scheduled this, there was some conflicts on getting the messaging out and schedule the meeting. So, for any counselors that were not able to attend, I take responsibility if it didn't meet their schedule, but we thank them all for being here tonight on a Thursday night and those that are going to be here tomorrow night and for you that came here tonight and the news. Thank you. And with that, workshop's over.