Charter Review Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

on God if you want to the opening prayer. Let's pray. Father, we're just so thankful for  this time together that we can have this group   look at our governing charter documents  as we realize that every organization has   to have a foundation and that foundation be  articulated and described and that is what   uh this group is doing. looking back  at our foundational documents. Thank   you for today and for this community  that we live in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Please face the flag. I pledge allegiance to  the flag of the United States of America and to   the republic for which it stands, one nation under  God. Indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Call the role. Chairman B here. Mr. Dancy. Yes.  Yes. Mr. Henderson Jansenius. Yes. Mr. Herrera.   Yes. Uh chairman, you have a quum. Thank  you, Madam Clerk. Um, other board members,   have you guys had opportunity to review the  meeting minutes from July 31st? Yes. Yes.   Are there any comments or suggestions? Or if  there's not, we'll take a motion to appeate. All in favor? I any um all right. So next on the  agenda is audience participation which then you  

can help me out with some of the one is I don't  know that we have any audience participation so   it might be we don't right I don't any members  from the public here um before we get to the   participation policy just a couple do you mind a  couple housekeeping things it's your meeting sir   um drop me there we Number one would be would it  be possible to get a copy of the proposed agenda   a week in advance and circulate with the other  board members for any sort of input on agenda   items? Sure. We we uh we'll get the agenda and  the minutes out week prior. Great. Um you know   that way I don't know that we're going to have a  lot of controversial agenda items but I everybody   you know I I would leave like the opportunity to  review it and be bail has has comments as well.   That way we're prepared. Um then uh so beyond  that um yeah and then same thing anything else   that we're being asked to review like the public  policy or the uh um public participation policy   and things like that. The sooner the better  we can have that city has a policy similar.   You want to see a copy of that? Is that what  you're trying I know we're going to consider   the public participation policy. I mean I know I  was given a copy of it just you know Jonathan sent   it to me a few minutes ago. I don't even know if  everybody else had an opportunity to review it.   So things that we're going to be reviewing, you  know, if we could do that 7 days in advance, too,   that'd be amazing. Um, then this is getting way  out over my skis. And please, other board members,   tell me how you feel about this. I find, and I  think there's going to be a lot of debate and   discussion amongst us, and doing it in a row,  it's very challenging. Would you guys be open   to sitting, and we don't do it today, at the end  of the table? Yeah, we can rock. Yeah. And then we   can sit at the end and that way it's just a lot  easier to have a conversation with each other.   Are you all open to that? Let's let's set it up  that way next time and then um develop better   discussions. Once we get room 10 back open, Mr.  Chairman, we'll probably move back down there  

and it'll be a little bit more similar to like  a commission thing and we can kind of curve the   tables. That might be better. It's just we had  water intrusion damage down there. And so that's   why we're kind of up here right now. So that might  be an option, too. Yeah. So my goal for you guys   as as other board members is going to be to have  an environment that fosters collaboration. I find   this is very difficult to talk to, you know, we're  talking down the line to each other. So whatever   we need to do to be able to because there's  going to be a lot of debate and collaboration   that happens with this is whatever we can do  to facilitate that that would be awesome. Um so   there's that that if there was a table big enough  that was round where you could sit eight eight of   us or so around it would be great. Yeah, I'm open  to any of that stuff. As long as it facilitates   conversation. Yeah, I'm good. Um, okay. Then let's  discuss the uh audience participation policy. I   guess have you guys had an opportunity to review  it? Thoughts, comments, suggestions. Yeah. Oh, that's another thing. When we do these notices  of the meeting and the agendas, what's the legal   requirement to do we have to publish those? Do  we have to those have to go out? Um, we usually   try to get them out a week prior. Is there like a  legal like 48 hours or Okay, those go out. If it's   a special call, 48 hours is recommended, but we  try to get everything out at least a week prior.   Yeah. And so this agenda was posted a week ago  and I I just assumed it was emailed to them. So   I don't think it was it was sent to us for review  and she never got any comments back. So I missed   it then. I'm sorry if it was sent out. I didn't I  know she sent it to us. Yeah. So what we'll start   doing going forward is city manager office, city  clerk's office, we'll get it all buttoned up and   then when we post it live, you guys will also  get an email with it a link to it and all that  

good stuff and you'll see that it that it's live.  We can even have all we typically don't I mean   the the body doesn't typically um I mean they'll  they'll add items to it but a lot of times staff   drives the crafting the agenda based on feedback  from the body itself but um I guess I'm we'll   send it to we'll send it to you for sure in the  minutes. Well if the goal is to post it publicly   seven days in advance then my my idea was to have  it seven days before it needs to go live. Well,   the notice of the meeting gets posted seven days  after the agenda itself doesn't have to get posted   necessarily. The agenda doesn't have to be posted  at all. We send it out and and I will fully follow   my sort of like I'm in the community association  world where we have to post the agenda 48 hours in   advance and really it's hard to modify from that.  But that's not the same standard for this. Just   notice that there is going to be a meeting and  then we can revise the agenda. Okay. All right.   But we'll get it out to you. Yep. is seven  days sufficient to comment on the agenda and   then we can have something when we walk into the  meeting. And I I would add that if we go with your   um building a house plan, we should know on  the agenda what is going to be the topics for   that meeting. And so, Mr. Chairman, I just ask you  put that in there so that we would know what to,   you know, ask man, you know, management any  questions or whatever before we get here. 100%.   Yeah, just so we know so we don't ever come blind.  Well, what are we gonna talk about today? That's,   you know, that's just a waste. Purely my anecdotal  experience. I'm sure you guys have all experienced   this as well. Like there will be a degree of  preparation. I know we're not preparing weeks   in advance. It's probably going to be in the few  leading updates, but it's certainly not going to   be the hours in advance, right? And so that's  kind of where I'm at. It's like I know we're   probably going to review this stuff on what's  today, Thursday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever.   I'm fine with that. That week is plenty of time.  Yeah. Um, and then hopefully the one of my goals  

today is to walk out with a pretty solid game game  plan framework agenda. Not agenda necessarily,   but schedule moving forward with kind of these  discrete sections that we're going to go over. So,   all right. So, if we're good with the seven  days, that'll be amazing. Um, back to the   public participation policy. Thoughts? J. I know  we we discussed it last time about limiting it   to agenda items for that day. Is that I don't know  that that's here. That was the only I know that we   had some discussion about that last time. What  was my only sort of addition to it if we want   to fire that debate up again if we're going to  limit it to just the agenda items that are being   discussed on that day or something else? I think  that's my concern as well. If if we're not going   to post the agenda, if it's not necessary, then  it wouldn't be necessary to limit it to agenda   items. It will be posted necessary, but we do post  it on the website. It's posted on the website. the   notice goes out to the to the newspaper and the  um county website. That's where the notice goes,   but the agenda is posted on the city's website.  And I think part of the plan here will be to   have a schedule through kind of to the end  of proceeding. So hopefully that'll meet   to walk out with that. Um do you guys mind if  we just call each other by first names? Yeah,   that sounds good. I mean Cecil, I know this was  a thing you were this was a priority for you. So   what do you think about the policy? Um the notice  I think I think the the public participation   policy. Oh, it looks fair. Um I think there  was some little issue that we were talking   about with a little difference of opinion and  I can't remember exactly what it was last time.   uh there was something to do that the people have  to be here physically to participate and I feel  

that we have elderly we have people are disabled  and they should be able to connect with us so if   it's possible to have a line that they can call  into not anything really complicated yeah I mean   it certainly does complicate it ma'am I mean  and also the concern you know we potentially   could use Zoom But you really want to control that  because you have no idea. You're not using Zoom   now. What is that? That's for recording. Yeah.  And so I mean if you there's no telling who you   have to allow everybody. We got people that would  intensely try to get on and be disruptive and all   that. So I mean our our building is is fully a  um you know ADA accessible. Um and uh you know   we we we provide assistance to get people what  they need to. We record these and they're posted   um in addition to uh all the agendas and minutes  that will be posted on the city's website agenda   section just like our city commission meetings  and CRA board meetings. Uh likewise, this is   being recorded. It is posted on the city's YouTube  station. So even if they can't make the meeting,   they can watch the meeting uh the minutes and  they can um or the minutes review those. they   can watch the meeting after the fact and they  can always email staff u and you know we would   then forward any of those uh emails received uh  to all five of you and that's a rule that we have   is that you know if there's any information that  goes out it doesn't just go to one of you so if   you ever get something from staff you can assume  that all five of you have received it you guys   think about the wrong access I think it creates a  lot of problems I'd rather them be here physically   right but I I guess the the thing is we have  disability, we have finances, you know, a lot   of people a lot of our constituents don't have  cars. So I I think if I hear what you're saying,  

um Jonathan, may may I call you back? Yes, ma'am.  Or do you go by John or Jonathan? Jonathan per   my mother. Jonathan, I think you're right that it  could be abused, you know, people just, you know,   taking up time and causing us a lot of problems.  I would say that that this should be the general   rule, but if we're presented with a case where  someone says tells us ahead of time, I want to   participate. I want to be active, but I have these  limitations, then I think we should we should be   flexible. Not just, you know, we should maybe make  it known that if someone has these issues, they   need to contact us the city earlier. It's on the  bottom of the agenda. Yes. Compliance requirements   if you have if you have if you have a need, you  can contact the city. I'll tell you, keep talking   about my association role because we do these  board meetings all the time. We have them via   Zoom and it works really really well. You you post  the Zoom link on the notice and I mean I would I   would say Cecil I would support trying to do it  and if it becomes a problem then we can address   it like oh my gosh we have all these random people  showing up and interrupting the meeting but to to   just simply attach an invitation um on that  Zoom and put on the motus it's I mean 100% of   my associations do it and it works very very well.  Yeah. I I think uh when I see any entity going to   that extent like your associations do to welcome  everybody even though it may not be utilized   very much or could be abused down the road. It  means a lot. It it sends a message everybody   is welcome and the city is going to double down  to make sure that that invitation is out there.  

I think is going to define our success on how much  public participation we actually have and how much   we encourage. And initially the last meeting I was  on kind of consistency with the commission with   how that meeting was being portrayed and they were  limiting to agenda items. But I've had a different   perspective. I feel like that meeting is more of a  decision type meeting. This is more collaboration.   I mean we're going to make decisions here, right?  Um the goal is to make decisions with as much   feedback from the community as we possibly can  and we are limited to the things on the charter,   right? Um or any ideas that could potentially  come into the charter. So I I would be fine   with a Zoom meeting. I would be fine. I think  at the end of this I measure what would success   look like and I'm going to measure that by how  much public participation we actually did have.   Well, we also related to this, we also talked  about it sometime in the near future, you know,   setting up meetings in the community in different  places so that to entice people to give us their   inputs and when we make our final recommendations,  the participation of the community in in our work.   I see what you mean. No, you're not in my work.  No, I just realized about turning your back   and clean up. Hopefully the selling of the ideas  better because people would have participated and   given us their inputs. I sorry I have a question.  So is the email we provided to the commission   public now? Right. So they can email us as board  members if they have a matter. Okay. Thank you. feelings one or the other. Um I think  that when the public realizes that we are  

not the decision makers that there will be less  participation because all we're going to make is a   recommendation to the commission. That's where the  decisions will be. And my experience has been when   people figure out that you're just going to make  a recommendation, they'll wait until the decision   makers are ready to make the decision. and and  this will be in front of the voters if we make any   any changes to the charter anyway. So, there'll be  some education that will come one day, you know,   a year plus from now when that happens. Um,  but as far as participation, I think it's good,   but I would limit to whatever is on the agenda  for that day. whatever for if our next meeting   and we're talking about makeup of the commission  and you know that then limit it to just that if if   somebody does show to have questions. So because  we are not the city commission so I think we can   limit it to whatever is on the agenda. For sure.  Um let me ask one more question then I'm going to   actually kind of propose a slate here. Um who who  is allowed to participate from a public comment   standpoint? Is it only citizens that reside or  is it business owners or anybody that shows up?   Anybody could be from Alaska. They could be from  Callaway. Anybody. All right. Is that something   we want to change? No. I just didn't know what the  default rule was. No, no, no, no. I I think to a   certain extent this is a little bit of a solution  looking for a problem at this point where I think   what we when the commission looked at this, Mr.  chairman uh board members is that um the we are   allowed to limit it to items only the agenda  but you cannot limit it to you know only folks   like from the city of Panama City or business  owners. That was the the guidance that we got   uh from the city attorney's office. Tell me if  the if the board's agreeable to this kind of  

like slate of changes. Number one is we can  start with the public public participation   that the city commission uses just update it to  reflect that it's the advisory board and that   type of stuff. Um I would like to see that each  speaker is limited to 5 minutes rather than three   just because of the collaborative nature of this  with a little bit of discretion to the chair to   extend time if if necessary. Um then limit the  conversation to agenda items. That's why it's   so important that we have an accurate agenda. And  then also, and this may not necessarily go in the   public participation policy, but that we do add a  Zoom feature for additional comments. And then I   think I will be the first one to acknowledge  that if it becomes cumbersome or disruptive,   and I think Cecil will do the same thing, then  we can always address the policy at that. But   I would like to start being as inclusive as  absolutely possible and then narrow it down   rather than saying, "Hey, you know, and I I  believe the city has a great ADA accommodation   policy. I understand all that other stuff, but  I I think just adding a Zoom link to the to the   notice and then, you know, we're either going  to get wild participation or or none. And so,   let's let's cross that bridge when we get  there. So, with the addition of Zoom meetings,   uh five minute comment with additional chair  discretion and limiting conversation to the   agenda items. Um is that other thoughts on  those? There's somebody motion moved. Second. Any additional debate or discussion? All right.  All in favor? Any opposed? Mr. Chairman, I'll just   point out that Mr. Tin Cow, the deputy supervisor  of elections, has joined us. Good to see you,   sir. Good to see you. How are you? Good. Must  be interested in what y'all are up to. Welcome,   sir. Thank you. I'll keep it short and simp. I'll  just say in the background uh the main purpose of   me being here just to just from an election  side how it will impact the voters of your  

city when you make these decisions and how which  election or bring presenting it to the voters and   on the ballot what ballot just here for that  purpose. Wonderful. Thank you. Welcome. Okay.   um discussion of charter review procedures. If we  could just to kind of keep this moving and simple,   we had talked about doing let's set a schedule  for the meeting that tempo looks like. Um I think   Jonathan or maybe Nathan had suggested it being  the third Thursday and I think we just I know we   just picked that. You got to pick something.  Um, I think Cecilia, you may have had a few   conflicts here and there, but can we just pick a  a week and a day and and and then we can schedule   around it? Sure. Like, do we want to start with  the baseline of what did you guys have? Was it the   third Thursday? Fourth Thursday. Fourth. Yeah,  I thought we said the fourth. Fourth Thursday. So we start with that by default and we go to  September 25th, October 23rd and so on. Do we   have just wild conflict with that schedule?  September. This is the fourth. The fourth.   Yeah, I do have a conflict with that with which  which date? Ocember 25th. Okay, I do as well. October 2nd. Yeah. I mean, what I'd be inclined  to want to suggest is that we we stick with   the fourth Thursday because we can I mean, my  summer 2026 is not booked up by any stretch. Um,  

and if we need to adjust the September  meeting, that's fine. But with the other   ones generally fall in line, the February 26  my daughter's getting married. Would tell her   to postpone it. Yeah, there's enough time.  I think generally the fourth Thursday, yes,   I'm available. All right. So, let's kind  of put a pin in that and then if we start   having our first substantive discussion  coming up around the 5ifth or around the   25th but not the 25th, Brandon, were  you suggesting April 2nd? I think it's um court's closed that day. If I can do that. Why  is it closed? Oh, fair. Um Cecilia, would October   2nd work for you? Yes, that you go with October  2nd. Let's do that. And then if we do February 26,   um Cecilia, would you want to do it a week sooner  or a week later? Like February 19th or March 5th?   March 5th. I I can do either one depending  if there's anybody has any other conflicts.   That's not our spring break, is it? The  second or third week. Probably the 26th is   spring break. Probably the week of March 10th  or spring break is March 16 through 20. Okay.   All right. Then somebody pick one. Either the the  February 19th or March 5th. March 5th is better. And then we're all still good  with 11:30 and start at 12.

So can we get a motion to establish  our calendar on the 4th Thursday of   each month with the exception of we'll  do October 2nd in L of September 25th and   then March 5th in lie of September 26th.  So, we also need to plan for November and   December. Christmas and Thanksgiving  are also on the fourth Thursday. Oh,   sorry. Well, we have November 20th already  on here. Are you going to be busy then? So, we do have November 20th. Okay. And then, um, pick a different one. December. I'd be more inclined to move the December meeting  later and do it like January 8th. I we we try to   travel that week before Christmas and we just may  have to miss December. So what January 8th in lie   of I guess we don't have anything scheduled for  December right now. You think we need it? I'll   tell you what, one of the things I wrote down here  was we could always cancel a meeting, right? So   That's the city commission. Just for your  information, we typically combine the   uh the November meetings into one and  the December meetings into one. So,   I mean, that's not know you guys only meet  monthly. So, it's a little bit more difficult,   but you could you could conceivably just not  have a December meeting. Why don't we do this   for that January 8th meeting? Let's intentionally  leave the agenda open. That way it can be either   a catch-up meeting or a follow-up meeting  or something along those lines and it'll   be easily cancelable if we need to. Okay,  Ron, you good with that? Sure. You know,   because that'll be after we have we'll have  our October we'll have two October meetings,  

a November meeting. You know, we'll have Yeah.  two October, November. We'll have three meetings.   That could be a good chance to either, hey,  we're we need to collaborate, we need to   figure something out, we need to double back on  something, or if we need to cancel it, we're not   now all of a sudden a month behind on things.  Okay. You'd still do the January 22nd though,   correct, Mr. Chairman? Correct. Okay. All right.  So October 2nd, October 23rd, November 20th,   January 8th, January 29th, March 5th, March 26th,  and so on. January 22nd. It's the fourth Thursday,   not the last Thursday. Did I say 22nd? Says 29th.  No, January 1st is the third first Thursday. So   the fourth Thursday would be January 22nd. Yeah.  All right. So, typo here. So, January 22. Y motion to set that schedule  as well. So, move. Second. All in favor? I um just for the record, you can't make motions,  but you are able to second motions if you so   desire. Okay, great. All right. Thank you guys.  Um All right. Review procedures. Um you know,   with the idea being we try to fill out this  schedule. I've never reviewed a city charter   before. What I sent to you guys was purely just  me trying to get my head around how to review   this thing. When I read the charter uh on an  airplane to and from Nashville, I was like,   this the charter makes sense. But in my opinion,  and please like just push back on this reading it,  

article one and two and then three and four and  five and six just came very clunky because some   work together and some are more like independent.  And so when I was reviewing this thing and I said,   we ended up circulating an email kind of the the  house framing analogy, building a foundation,   the walls, the windows, and the trim. Um, that  was just kind of my way of figuring out a way   to attack problems like this. Um, but I'm  open to suggestions. If there's agreeance   or strong opposition, like please let  me know. I've never done this before. I liked it. I I thought I heard the building a  house analogy. I actually use it all the time   at work operations. You always start with  a strong foundation. So that's what I think   we should start with and then be objective  and be clear about what are the foundations,   what is the roof, like come with that analogy  and then let's take pull it out of the charter   and then be strategic in what we do address.  That way it gives us that four-week period or   3 week period between each meeting to really come  prepared. We engage the community. We understand   what we're asking, what we're looking  for, and it's it's completely objective. Rob, what do you think? I  like I think it worked well. So, let's discuss if we're going  to go over the foundation first. And I suggested that that be article  2 along with article 7 and along with   article 13 where it kind of all plays into  the the authority of the city council versus   the authority of the city manager and  then the other appointed positions. Um,   do you think there's anything else any others  articles that need to be kind of debated or   discussed at the same time? And we'll take  our time. We're here until 1:00, so there's no

back. I generally thought you did a a very  good job clustering like things. This is I I mean Jonathan I mean Neon I  mean please give me y'all live and breathe   this document and so I don't know like where  because Neon I'll put you on the spot here   article three the powers where we're talking  about fire fire apartments power over water. I mean, is that is that integral to a foundation?  I don't think I had article three on my list here.   Or is that something we can probably agree with?  Either way, I mean, you're with your approach,   I think, is commendable. Everyone else, every  other charter review committee that we looked   at kept asking Caroline, how did they do it?  Well, they just started in article one and went   to article 10. Yeah. Which logically probably  isn't the best way to do it except that's how   they did it. So I think how whether if three  gets thrown in the bond or whether you do it   independent I would be done otherwise. I think  it fits in I think it fits in the foundation.   It's pretty powerful and that's where you see  conflict you know down the road when those   things are not well delineated and people  try to get in others lines. So I think it's   important to establish stuff there's nothing  holding us to the number of articles or what   the articles were before right so we can yeah  write a new article one kind of establishing  

the power separations of each office and then  go from there that's where we want to start or like I don't want to get like super  tactical today but like for example   when I'm looking at section 53 three  where it talks about power to prevent   fires. Wouldn't that be reviewed along  with article 12 of fire protection? I would consider that to be framing  that it's going to be more department   specific maybe not foundation focused  foundation I would say city commission   city manager definitely the department  specific items is that more framing my objective is just we we walk out  with a plan for how to address all the   substantive things in here so I am kind  of going a little bit line by line at   point or if we say all right we're  going to take 53 and line that up   with fire and then we're going to take  54 which admittedly I don't really know our waterways I mean that might be something  that's own independent I don't know what   we're all used not off of mentioned a lot  during the water access on beach Touch that. I think it happens quite a bit. I  mean, every time they dredge something,   it's a new power. Therefore, they need to dredge  a bottle in the bottom of that type of thing that   goes into like the underlying who who makes the  decisions whether it's managing. Okay. All right.

All right. Then maybe we're  not too far off. If if the next and I really don't know if if these are things  that you could hash out in one meeting or if   it takes two. I think the foundation would take  more than one. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I do because   in that foundation you're going to have you may  have precincts and North Panama City. You know,   we talked about that last time we were here  at what are we going to do? Are we going to   recommend increasing the commission size?  You know, all of that's going to be in the   foundation. And I I foresee that being more than  one needing. Yeah. I was going to say the article   four of elections kind of interlocks with the  foundation of power as far as when you and the   whole discussion of elections some of us may  want to move them from the present to November   cycle. So all that to me is the foundation.  I agree. So do we want to include our four   elections in some of our initial discussions? I  believe that's foundational. very much. That's   my opinion. I think it's Yeah, I think it's  we're going to have to debate it no matter   what. When we start talking about the powers of  the office, how does that office get elected? Um Okay. So with the idea being the  first two meetings we discuss  

article two which deals with  city commission and go back. So the the the foundational discussions  would be article two city commitment, article four elections, article seven city management. Guess that was it. I had in here article 13,  but I think that we're talking about it. Those those layers down. Maybe more framing  rather than like if you're going to do clerk, city officers, employees, things like that,   that that stuff may go together more than  where I had it to begin with. So, I'm article eight is the attorney. You have it posted  here. I'm ask where we're putting that one.   Seems like we should probably break up foundation  into two separate meetings. We are 100%. Yeah, we   are. But I I think that what actually happens is  the city attorney and the city clerk actually do   have controlling or really controlling directives  to the emission. So they it's almost foundational.   Yeah. You know what I mean? So I agree with your  footing the city clerk and the foundation. I think   you should add city attorney. Well might be  the authority that they had is pretty strong.   So the first meeting could be artist could be  article two and article four the elections.  

Then the second meeting could be city manager,  city attorney and city clerk. I love that. cover the foundation. So, okay. So, we have this kind  of larger bucket of foundation.   The first conversation will be about article  two, the city commission along with the elections. The next the you know the byproduct of those   discussions will then go  right into articles seven. I think what we decide on article two will  change right the other the other well I have   okay I have seven seven written down eight  written down and then 13 those all kind of   get lumped in together and then the next  part would be article five city officers   employees and departments generally do you  think that's a layer down from I do okay So when are we going to get to the U first  meeting is second third meeting is going to   be the employees that what you think yeah I  mean that's kind of what we're workshopping   right now is meeting one is articles two  and four which deals with elections and   and city council or city commission. The  next meeting which relates is articles 7,  

8 and 13 which is city manager, clerk and  city attorney. The next meeting would be   article five, city officers, employees and  departments. And then that would also line   up very nicely for our January meeting  that's kind of our floating meeting. We could come back after that and talk about   finances and that's where  we can get into 15 and 16. We have article 15 taxation 17 17  sorry about that. and article 20 this everything got removed right so yes we're going to move article three pen with article  file for the November 20th meeting the powers   and the employees yeah I think that's in the  right articles Yes. Yes. So three on this plan. Thanks. What we did on this plain version is that   we took out things that just  had already been on the field.

Not the official charter. The official charter  is yes. Okay. Then now now I am kind of going   line by line here. So articles 12  sorry got to read my Roman numeral.   Articles 11 and 12, police protection,  fire protection. Those can be what are   we on number like four or five? I  think that would be the fifth. Yeah. So, we're getting down into  the departments, correct? Now, is article one a requirement? Yes. Uh yes. And then where where would we suggest that article  17 public utilities? Does that get further review   kind of along with police and fire and utilities  or am I I think it kind of goes with article the   powers one right where we're talking what do you  mean then article three the powers of waterway   and access it's got two it's got the fire and then  the waterways and public utilities and waterways   those are distinct aren't they? Okay you both deal  with water but Yep. drinkable water and waterways. So, for the fifth meeting, the department's  fire and police, are you suggesting that the   sixth meeting be public utilities? That's what  I'm trying to figure out. Okay. Might as well  

be. Yeah. Seems like our department and police  is going to be at least especially possible. Copying somebody's homework in class  here. Everything you're doing is a   public record. So there not I just  I've literally gone to your email then I will fully acknowledge I'm very much  like a macro guy and so as we get into   the micro here. So if we look at the  schedule at the end of this month,   we would discuss city commission and what do I  have here? The elections and elections. Yeah. End of October we discuss the manager, clerk,  attorney position. November we discuss the next   layer down of positions the city officers  employees different departments that rolls   into we have an open December and then January  8th we can come back with an open agenda at   least at this time it's a good idea kind of  wrap that stuff up or if we don't need it we   don't need it and then we roll into February and  that's when we start talking about the finances And then we go into March and we talk about fire,  

police, and then we go into  April, we talk about utilities. Do you feel that's a decent tempo or is that too  fast? Is that too slow? I think if we get into it,   yeah, I think I think it depends on how we  won't know if we get there. Yeah. Yeah. Um Neon,   we touched on this. Okay, so we need a  motion on that. Are we good? Do we have   plenty of notes on that? I I if you just  want to confirm the first meeting will be   article 2 and 4. The second is 7 8 and 13.  Third is 5 and three. The fourth is 14 15   and 16. The fifth is 9 I mean 11 and 12.  And the sixth is 17 and 18 is what I have. So see what does that sound right? Yeah. I would  advise Mr. Chairman uh calling for a vote so no   one can say I didn't vote for that. All right.  With the provision that it's y'all can modify it.   It can be modif. Um all right. Is there a motion  to approve that schedule uh agenda going forward?   So moved. Is there a second? I'll second. any  other debate or anything else with the provision   in my motion of that we would freely go back  and and modify as needed 100%. Yeah, that we can   include on the motion. Yeah. And and and amend as  needed. Totally support that. All in favor? Wait,   I'm sorry. With I mean with the discretion of  the chairman, we we may have our first meeting   and not get as far as we think. So I don't want  it to be in concrete that on the second meeting   we have to talk about this if we we're building  this bicycle as we're riding it. So it it may take  

longer than we all think and it may take shorter  than and I assume that was the spirit of Cecile's we're not if we're not comfortable then the  chairman can say here's the the next agenda   we're going to do this and and I think that's  also proves the point of why we need the agenda   ahead of time so we can circulate with each other  and then I'm not going to say hey we're moving on   regardless and I think as a as a matter of  course every last item on The agenda should   be preparation for next meeting and that way  you'll set out what you're preparing for your   next meeting. For sure. Um but this will help us  tremendously when it comes to you know getting   either citizen input or who we're talking to as  as opposed to just you know what do you think   about the entire charter to me that's very hard  to it all works together but if you kind of say   hey we have this thing coming up and then build  out from there it just makes a lot easier. So   okay I think we're aligned on the motion clear.  Okay. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Great. Um, any other housekeeping things, other thoughts,  concerns, anything? Any way we can do this better?   Oh, I have something. So, Nevin, can you walk us  through I mean, I I kind of have a vision of how   the actual like pen to paper is going to work, but  how do you how is it going to work with with you   as actually like I don't assume we're drafting  language. We're I assume we're going to kind   of give you wish lists and here's what we want  substantively and then the city attorney will   draft it and put pen to paper. Is that accurate?  Yes. Yes. I mean, we'll we'll act as staff just   like we do at the city commission, which is  you talk about what you want. We we'll go back,   we'll work as appropriate with Jan, with Jonathan,  any other department head we need to to get input  

on and then we'll present it back to you ahead  of the meeting. So, you have an opportunity to   look at it. you can and feel free to call us any  time with any comments or questions. Um it's even   though this is a collaborative pro process, we  are subject to Sunshine Law and Public Records.   So the the request is I send it to you, you make  your comments, let's say I'm sending it or if   Jonathan's, you make your comments back to me and  then uh there might be another draft that you see   before we ever get to a commission meeting  just based upon, you know, reactions or you   call or or something. But but probably not. But  we'll get a draft out and and we'll talk to you.   We'll we won't just see you once a month. uh we'll  we'll talk to you ahead of time, get your thoughts   and comments and uh uh it's been very helpful with  the I'm not suggesting we have weekly meetings,   but just so you know how Jonathan operates and and  is that we have weekly meetings with commissioners   so you you know what they're thinking and then you  use that collective information and I'm there too   uh to and Jan to put put stuff together.  So hopefully when it gets there, it's not   a totally foreign concept to him. So So we we  but we'll informally just stay in touch and we   do plan on doing the drafting as necessary um to  move forward. But you'll be wanting to know, well,   what other jurisdictions have done this? How have  other cities attack this? whatever the issue is.   And that's that's why Caroline's here. She's going  to she's going to find out now. She is Caroline  

is great as far as doing, you know, that that  research for us to see how others have tackled   this problem. We're not the only city in Florida.  They've all gone through these issues. And there's   a amazing amount of diversity and how they're run.  even for the strong mayor, weak mayor. I heard of   something new that uh Caroline already knew about  the five commissioners with the mayor that has a   veto. I mean, it's uh yeah, that's what uh so it's  so we're but we we're here to help you with that   information. Is that participation done at the  meeting or is that something we do beforehand?   How will that work? Well, I'll give you we'll give  you a call and just check in with you or or you   call us, but if we haven't heard from you, we're  going to try to reach out to each of you. I I read   through a lot and your memo. Um, you covered a  lot of stuff, so I'm not sure I pulled it all in   to understand it. But in terms of how uh the city  manager works with the commission, um I think you   put several examples in the memo or or somewhere  I saw several examples in in the notebook.   I don't know if you could pull them together and  just like here's six different methodologies just   make sort of spoon feed us each time you know  like we've sort of we've sort of set forth   what we think we're going to talk about. So, what  would be helpful to me cuz I like to be spoonfed   is here's five or six examples of how uh power is  partitioned amongst the commissioners and the city  

manager. Just send us that. So, you'd like five  or six examples of how uh other communities have   structured their city commission in addition to  how we already have? Yes. And if you come across   something that either the League of Cities or  you yourself or Nevin said thinks this is really   interesting, it's not necessarily local. Could  be Tampa. Just pull that name. this is, you know,   look at this because that really helps my mind get  more prepared to have debate and to do that with   every every the uh monthly meeting examples of how  others have done it before either their language   or however you know this this is helpful helpful  discussion because what I thought I was going to   offer up if if you're interested We now know that  uh our next meeting we're going to talk about the   commission and elections. So I wanted to give  you some background information ahead of time.   We could do what Cecilele's talking about. Also on  elections I wanted to give you u an ordinance that   the city commission considered but did not adopt  that would have moved the election dates to the   general election. Um, and there may be some other  information along those lines. And then there's an   interesting question that that we'll give you our  feedback on. And that is we don't why are we even   talking about it in the charter if we could if  the city commission can do it by ordinance and the   city can change the election dates by ordinance.  So why would you put it in the charter? I think   there is u couple of commissioners that would be  interested in having y'all talk about it though  

in a charter. Obviously, if you put it in the  charter, then it can only be changed by a charter   by by a vote of that's that's what we feel. But  we're that's those are all good questions and   I we're going to look at that. I I think we're  all pretty much and most Americans and certainly   looking around this group, we've been educated to  the point that we have constitutional foundational   things. We have a federal constitution, then  comes our state constit. That's how we think   of government. And I think this flows with  the charter because I saw that question. Well,   you really could just make another ordinance,  but I don't think people feel comfortable with   that. I don't think citizens feel comfortable with  that. They want a foundational underlying document   that's been thought through and that kind of puts  guidelines and big structure, you know, things and   then the smaller, more detailed things go in the  ordinances, you know, because otherwise we'd end   up like we'd be like New Orleans, like the French.  They have codes for everything, you know, and you   have it's a totally different way of looking  at it. Something should be harder to change.   Something should be harder to change. And I think  citizens, myself included, I feel comfortable with   an overarching general concept and then jump  from there feeding more specifics. So I I would   recommend against dumping everything on the city  uh commissioners to make ordinances. Also the city   uh commissioned their uh viewpoints change with  over time and with elections the changing of   who is sitting at the table and some things  I think citizens just want to know are going  

to be there. So I would speak against pushing too  much on the ordinances. That's a real fundamental   philosophy or foundational issue when it comes to  charter review. because you may decide you want to   recommend something that doesn't have to be in the  charter, but you feel it's so important it ought   to be in the charter. Just the point that you're  making. Yes. Um but that's that's for you all to   to and and maybe you know the election date is one  of those issues. Uh you'll see that it you can you   know you then have to you have a new election  date. How how do what does that do to existing   terms? So you can either lengthen terms or shorten  terms. I mean that but those are uh but that I was   going to give you that that's an example not so  much to talk about other than give you an example   of the information that we'd like to provide a  couple weeks out. I love it. Before the meeting   would that be helpful? Very helpful. Great.  Yeah. I mean you guys mind if I just share some   overarching thoughts here like where my head's  at with this stuff? Yeah. One, this has been very   interesting and like very thoughtful just kind  of going through I hate to like analogize it to   the forefathers, but you kind of do start thinking  through like, you know, how do you set up a system   that works when it's your best friend in charge or  your worst enemy in charge, right? You know, and   and there's there's a there's a balance between um  putting in so many constraints in a charter that   somebody can't function and the responsibility of  the citizenship to elect sound representatives,   right? You know, on one hand, I guess you could  theoretically have a charter that just says city   council, city commission, do whatever you want,  you know, as long as it doesn't run a foul of any   other sort of laws that the state or the federal  government has, it's very broad authority to run   the city, run the city however you want. And  I suppose when you've got your team in charge,   that sounds great. But then all of a sudden, you  don't have your team in charge and they're running  

rampant. And and I think about that, you know,  at every level of governance, you know, it's it's   great when it's your guy doing the stuff, but when  it's not your guy using the same executive powers,   you're like, "Wait a second. how can they do this?  And it's like, well, you know, you can't just,   you know, like the outcome, therefore, you you you  support the process. So, that's that's something   that I'm wrestling with a lot is how much of this  goes in the charter that you think about those I I   think you said this cuz I wrote down these guard  rails. like what are these things that we put   in that's like hey as long as you play within  this sandbox do what you want to that's that's   our responsibility as citizens to elect competent  people but we also got to make sure you don't do   some crazy decision like just and I'm not pushing  this I started thinking of like fiscal constraints   of saying hey is there some degree of like  fiscal responsibility or spending authority or   debt authority or something like that where it's  like you guys like me personally I would not want   the city and I think they can do this Now, not  good about it, but I think this is the case. You   could just mortgage the city forever and to to to  pay for some giant project and that's a city city   council city commission authority level right now.  Whereas like that that gives me heartburn to think   that we can take on some massive debt load that my  grandkids are going to have to pay. So that that   would be something along the lines of, you know,  if you're going to bond off some project at some   degree having some some sort of citizen impact  that if we're going to make this investment. So   I think about those types of things. Um, but  yeah, it is a role balance between what goes   in the charter that now because I'll give you the  other example and again I I guess I'm going to say   this a thousand times in my my meetings here. I  have had community associations that have had bad   experiences with bad boards and then put things  in their governing documents to where the other   boards can't function. And my my just understand  the spirit of this example. One of my associations   says that they can't spend more than $5,000  without owner approval. And I'm like, "Y'all can't   function." And they came back to me, they go,  "Well, this one board spent too much money." And  

I'm like, "I I understand that, but you need to  elect better representatives, not make it so that   your current board can't function anymore because  every time we want to go buy a new pool pump, we   have to go get owner approval for it." So, that's  kind of the the the weighing here that at least   I'm going through. Um, process paralysis. Yeah,  for sure. For sure. So, uh, what other I guess   big picture here? Are there any like JP where's  your head at? I mean, have you thought about this   stuff or where where are you at in terms of what  though? In terms of just kind of overall thoughts   on this process and where you're at and things  that maybe you want to share something on the hey,   this is kind of what's on my mind. Nothing really.  I like the beginning with the separation of powers   and the framework that we've established. I think  a lot of it is just going to be getting into the   details and starting that conversation. I was  thinking is there a way to have a staff report   kind of as part of every month? So, you know, we  were talking about getting that out a couple weeks   before. Kind of the same thing. Just make it, you  know, especially as we get into the some of the,   you know, more specialized things like utilities,  things that I'm not sure what the issues,   the hot issues in city law are with utilities  or those are the kind of as we start to get   into the more specialized things, at least some  direction. I don't mind doing my own research,   but I don't I don't even know where to start  with something like that to speak for Jonathan.   If you have an I and for Jan if you have an item  on your agenda that says u preparation for the   next meeting or discussion at that time the three  of us can give you we'll think about it ahead of   time and we'll like I gave you a little preview of  things I'm thinking about now that I know we could   all give you a preview of information we think  could be relevant sound it out on you and then   potentially do yeah yeah I like I like to have it  as an agenda item or something kind of every time   because I think that will at least give us some  direction. Some things that I would like to see   between now and maybe a couple weeks before the  next meeting is like what are examples of cities  

in Florida that currently have the weak mayor  system, some that have the strong mayor system,   some that have the commission um city manager  system. I think that's what we have. We have a   commission city manager where it's Yeah. City  manager, former government or mayor. Yeah. And   where does it work well at? Where has it not  worked well at? Where they've made changes.   Um maybe some wise behind why they made some  of those changes. Um just kind of give me some   guidance as I start to dive deeper into it.  Like I want to kind of understand how long   have we had this system, you know, and where  are some of the faults currently in the system   that we have that's been I've heard it from two  commission three commission boards now. The back   and forth between city manager and commission.  That's not my job. It's not my job. Well,   whose damn job is it? It's still not clear. We've  been governing through this charter for 100 years,   60 years now, right? So, how do we eliminate  some of that cloudiness? We provide the clarity,   but ultimately maybe it's a hybrid and that's  what we'll have to come back and figure out.   But how do we pull out what's working well in  other cities across the state of Florida? Um,   and then who's made changes and why they made  changes and why are they on their current system?   I think um who what's working well would be a  matter of opinion though I don't know that we   can provide we can tell you why the changes were  made if changes were made but I don't know whether   yeah if I can elaborate so taking case myself my  interview was public so you can have the same form   of government a city manager form of government  with a weak mayor and you can have a city manager   who really leans hard into the commission and  the commission allows to some degree that city   manager to function almost like a commissioner.  Uh or you have a city manager like myself who,   you know, I'm not here to put pressure on the  board. I'm not here to try to act like an elected  

official. I'm going to follow the direction  and execute that which they want me to. So,   um yeah, but that that's you could have that  in different cities with the same type of   government. What now? You're five different bosses  potentially. I mean, well, that's I that's why I   have five different meetings every single week. So  I think there's a way and some of this information   is some of this stuff out and I've seen systems  where the commission are accountable to certain   departments and I know that's few and far between  where one commissioner is accountable to the fire   department, one commissioner is accountable to the  police department. I've seen the I've read about   those systems. There's some value there might be  because accountable or do you mean over a liaison?   There's a difference between accountability and  responsibility. I think we would have to clearly   define that because ultimately you're accountable  right as city manager. Right. Correct. To to   the board. All three of us are. All three of us  serve at the pleasure of the board. Do you mind?   I can probably put a little bit of a bow on this.  Perhaps by if we're meeting on the 2nd, which is   1, two, 3, four weeks from now. By September 19th,  if you guys provide simply a menu of options,   and that's probably not a great word. The the  board is struggling because I don't know what's   out there and and not an evaluation of what's good  or bad. that that's you know why we big box right   I got you that's right but but if you're like hey  here is sort of the plethora of of ways to do this   and then we can debate it we can look at it we can  go do our own independent research on that type of   stuff like I don't expect some you know 10-page  memorandum on the pros and cons of all these   systems but just something that Lee says there's a  strong mayor there's a weak mayor there's there's   kind of like these sort of like menu of things  that that are more typical like I don't I don't   think there's going to be a lot of appetite at  least not for me to create some bespoke exotic   system that no other community has ever tried  before. But I think you can probably say, listen,  

out of municipalities that are in this kind of  like 50 to $100,000 range, these are, you know,   80% of the communities are one of these types  of things. And then that we can go from there.   Is that a fair representation of what we're  looking for here? Yeah. I mean I I definitely   want to know you know what others are doing um how  they've delineated it and um if there have been   discussions like you had mentioned an ordinance  that was discussed and maybe written out but then   in the end they didn't change the elections what  was their thinking you know because we don't have   to reinvent the wheel we may at least we'll know  their pathways mental pathways and we may make a   different decision because we're different people  in different times. But I think it is really   helpful to kind of drill down. We all are taking  this very seriously. We realize the importance of   laying the brick work and the foundation as well  as we can. So those things help us. So So Ron,   I don't I don't know you well enough to know was  that pause like concern or that's how you process   what? Well, it it's just um philosophy of of  boardmanship and leadership. I I would ne I   won't say never because I might be convinced,  but a commission of mayor should never be in   process of day-to-day operations. They are budget  and policy. Day-to-day operations fall on staff.   I mean, that's what I'm used to. That doesn't  mean that that's right, but that's, you know,   to have what you were saying about a commissioner  oversight or whatever you for a department. Oh,   no. Absolutely not. Absolutely. They might have a  department maybe want to talk to them or whatever   to get information, but never would a commissioner  should be in even the perception of usurping the  

authority of the management team. Never. Okay. So,  you you're you're thinking a layer down. Like when   I I was suggesting, hey, send us this menu of  of available options. You're thinking a layer   down. I'm like, all right, what's what's sound  policy and what's Okay, I got very um Caroline's   the one that's did did our research early on. So,  Caroline, by September 19th, we can provide that.   But what kind of information you can find on  the because I think you could probably give   some examples of clips from charters that that  have the different forms as far as cuz I think   people would like to see what the actual words are  in the charter and then also maybe would you pick   up some of the issues just off the internet as far  as uh the back and forth of why they would propose   something? I can certainly get you uh descriptions  of different um how different uh charters are set   setting up their their system, but uh their their  government. Um why they chose that may or may not   be um I might not be able to find simply because  if they've been doing it for a hundred years,   it's going to be hard for me to find out why they  chose it 100 years ago. Uh but if the but what I   was thinking is that I will look for some that  have changed in modern times and see if there's   some um more background on why they made that  change and I can I can try to do that. I I am   a little hesitant to promise you that I can tell  you why. I'll speak for myself and please y'all   y'all correct me. I personally I'm not looking for  why and I'm not looking for good or bad. I'm just   looking for what's what's out there. there's going  to be a spectrum between mayor rules with an iron   fist and you know city manager does everything.  There's going to be some and that's kind of what   I'm just looking at. That's all I want to do. So  that that I can do. I would suggest Mr. Chairman,  

board members, the the best thing to do would  be um direct me to reach out to the Florida   League of Cities. Uh and there's about 410 cities,  villages, and towns in the state of Florida. And   inside Florida, the uh one of the senior staff of  the Florida League of Cities uh also handles the   FCCMA, which is the Florida City County Management  Association. So, it's kind of a they're kind of a   joint venture. Uh we could request one of their  senior staff provide a presentation to y'all,   probably 15 to 20 minutes. They could join  virtually from Tallahassee and give kind of an   overview of the different types of government that  we see across all of the cities in the state of   Florida and the pros and the cons of each. to then  answer your questions. We could probably do that   in 30 minutes of one of your next meetings if you  so desire. Sounds fabulous. Great. They're willing   to do that for sure. And and I think we paid  them a lot of money, so they should be more than   willing to do that to us. So, and so you'll speak  freely here like you mentioned that you wanted to   see the language of what these charters look like  that accomplish those things. So that you want to   see that, right? Yes. That's not as important  to me, but by all means, like she needs to see   that stuff. both. But I think the having someone  from the League of Cities once once you look up   to see who's doing what, it'll be right there.  and just capture it. As far as elections go,   we could provide you with the link to the meeting  where they had the discussion the last time they   spoke about uh changing the dates and I can give  you exactly when it what minute to go to and that   way you don't have to watch the whole meeting,  but you can get at least get the idea of what   they were discussing during that period of time.  Will money be saved if we move the elections to   the general election because of efficiencies. I  how we got a question. Um well, the city of Panama  

City has two elections. You have um you know,  charter currently calls it a primary general, but   these terms now are not used. Primary considered  partisan elections. If you move to the general   November election, hypothetically, if you have a  runoff, the question becomes when is your runoff?   Um, there's two cities in our county have moved  to just a general election. They do not have a   runoff. So, there's a lot of questions. Long story  short, it may depends depends on how lengthy your   ballot. Um, when the city doesn't have but  two contests on a ballot, it doesn't cost   them anything because we have uh we call it real  estate on the ballot. So, it doesn't cost the city   anything. But if a city decides to put amendments  or resolutions or ordinances or whatever you might   call them, it may lengthen the ballot for those  residents or those voters and that may cause a   countywide ballot to be from a one page to a four  page. Somebody has to forward that bill and if   it's because of one municipality, it would cost  the city's money. But there are there's a lot of   conversation when it comes to saving elections is  um Mr. Cow, isn't there? Correct me if I'm wrong,   I believe we pay for the spring elections, but if  we regardless of whether there's one or two items   on there because we're we're hiring y'all in the  spring for special elections, not with a normal   cycle. If we were to move to August, November  or just November, we would be part of a larger   um election and there would be some savings but  not a lot. That's my understanding. If you move,   if all things equal, you it would cost the city  no money to go to the general election because the   county it's a countywide ballot. The county will  force all the bills. We are a countywide elections  

elections. So if the city determ wants to move to  a to a general ballot all else equal city will not   pay for anything except for qualifying fees and  all the other minutia stuff but in generalizing   you there is a cost savings there's there's a long  there's a lot of benefits but also there comes   with what are you trying to accomplish but in in  short you could potentially cost the city no money   to move to a general election. Currently, you're  paying for your own special elections in April and   May. And what does that of the odd year of the odd  year? The odd year. And what does that run? Um,   it has varied from 20,000 to 40,000 over the past  three cycles. Most of it it would be interesting   to listen to the discussion on that issue, but  most of the discussion was more along the lines of   you'd get more voters out if it was on the general  election dates rather than a special primary.   or the discussion was, "Yeah, but people that come  for the special dates in April, they're really   focused on local issues and they're not showing  up just because they're they showed up to vote   in the primary or the presidential elections  and they aren't." So, it's more, you know,   how many voters and are the voters really focused  on local issues? That was kind of the discussion   primarily that kind of and then they just the  commission decided it wasn't time to take action. Um help me set an expectation here. one is  and just now that we're looking at the time,   not that I have any heart out as we do these  discussions and now we're talking about on the   October 2nd having a presentation from the  League of Cities is I think we have an hour   pencled in for this or is it two? Uh we actually  have been blocked for 2 hours from 12 to 2. Like  

do you guys think two hours you know should be  more than I don't think more than two but two   hours kind of a reasonable expectation for us to  go through this stuff. Okay. No, I had in my head   it was an hour and I'm like we flew through an  hour today and that there's no way we're going   to be able to discuss this stuff in 60 minutes. We  could shift it back to 11 if you my I just need to   make sure it's on my calendar from 12 to 2, which  I think you sent out the invite, but Okay. So,   that's that's that. We don't get through in 2  hours. We got another meeting coming. I mean,   you know. Yeah. Yeah. Y'all could schedule y'all  could also schedule additional special meetings if   you so desire. Absolutely. So we have we'll get  some kind of menu guide of different governance   structures in two weeks. We come into the meeting  on October 2nd having reviewed that having given   that some thought and the legal cities will  hopefully be able to present something else   at the same time. At that meeting, we can discuss  those governance structures and hopefully walk out   with something for Nevin to put pen to paper on  that we could then read in the interim and walk   into the next meeting with hopefully something  that we could, you know, not necessarily approve,   but like have a solid basis and then move on  to the next thing. Is that kind of the idea?   And that that's the flow. So when we get through  with section two and Nevin and his team draft it   that comes back to us just to make sure that  that's what we had in mind. So are we going   to vote that we're done with section two? Are we  going to wait till we get to the end to make sure   we don't have to go back to section two for  something that comes up in section 13? Yeah,   I think we So I think we we need to have the whole  document. It's going to be more work for Navan,   I think. But hold on, I have a suggestion. I'm a  I read biographies and history all the time and   for some reason I've been reading James Madison  and u but what they did is that they acted as a  

committee of the whole and then they would approve  a section with the right at the end to come back   and change it at any time. So it was never like  they approved it and were never going to come back   and revisit which drove some of them nuts because  they wanted to approve it and not think about   anymore but then they keep coming back. So you  raised a good point but I think logically you're   going to want to revisit something absolutely as  you go along just because of new information and   you've thought about it. Yeah. interconnectedness  is not always readily clear the first time and   when you get down the road you're like hey  that's you know a direct link to something   else and for clarification for me other than a  federal court case or a state court case charter   trumps ordinances correct the charter say that  the say that the commission last Tuesday voted   for that elections thing and we wanted it to  be different. What what what happens if the   commission passes an ordinance? The charter  is your constitution. Okay. So you it's the   ordinances have to be quote constitutional  to be but maybe make sure I understand. I   don't think there's a legal requirement that  we have a charter at all. Is there theoretical? No, you have to know by statute, you know, you  could have something as loose as the citizens will   elect a city commission and they can do whatever  they want as long as it doesn't go against state   or federal law. You would you your charter would  I mean there is boundaries at minimum it has to   have city boundaries. Yeah. And then literal  boundaries. Yeah, I get that. You need article  

one, right? This says you have jurisdiction over  this pallet. I get that. But absent that, I mean,   that was one of my questions to somebody was, "Do  we even need a charter?" Yeah, we got It's a great   thought exercise, right? Yeah, we got to have good  news, guys. No. No, I get it. Your basic authority   for a city comes from the state legislature. So,  there's statutes that say this is what cities can   do. So, then the question is, well, what do you  need in addition to that? Right. So everything   that we're doing is is guard rails, parameters,  clarification, that type of stuff. So yeah,   and then all the data. Okay, I'll think about that  more. So currently the charter doesn't clearly   define when the election has to be. It just says  there has to be one, right? That's it can be   adjusted by ordinance right now. Yes, it can be  adjusted by ordinance except there's language in   there about the runoffs. So you could potentially  in the charter review amend that. For example, one   of the if if you did entertain moving to August  and November in in alignment with gubinatorial   and presidential election terms, uh you know, a  recent city, I can't remember which one it was,   made a change and what they did was if you know,  so right now the charter says if you have more   than three candidates and in April, if no one  gets 50% plus one, then the top two advance to a   runoff. However, if one of them gets 50% plus one,  it's over in April. Well, you know, even in August   sometimes, you know, you have lower turnouts than  you do. Obviously, November is the largest type   of turnout there is. So, you know, the the city  that recently made modifications was they still   did the August primary, but if only two candidates  qualified, then there was no election in August.   Those two candidates advanced to November. If you  had three or four qualify in a u for the election,  

then you all four of them or all three of them  go on in August and the top two vote getters   regardless of the amount go to November. Like you  have an election in November no matter what. So   even if one got 80% and one got 20% in August,  those top two advance to to November. Right now   the charter does say that the top two unless  you're 50 principles one 30 days later da da   da da da you know there is thoughts that that's  a really quick trans I mean like literally by the   time you're even like done certifying the prior  election like I mean it's already like they're   under pressure to start mailing the the absentee  ballots for the runoff. So 30 days is in a lot of   people's mind. You think 16 cities kind of  getting away from that cuz that's a really   quick runoff election, but and it would also be a  charter change. Correct. If um if for some reason   the city wanted to go to orality. So in other  words, whoever gets the most votes is wins. So   you could get 22% of the votes. And if there  were five candidates, if you got 22, you would   win. That is that is legally permissible. I'm not  saying it's good policy or that's something what   ought to be done, but that is and that's what  happens by default. Sometimes if you have a a a   political primary and and there's no opposition  in the other party, whoever wins the primary,   which is typically a plurality, they just they  then run out of post. Can you give us some   examples of cities that have that auto where  they don't do a runoff? We'll give Yeah. Like   the elections in November and to Devin's point,  whoever's the top vote getter, even if it's 23%.   And if you have like seven people in a race, you  someone could get like 22% and win. We will. It's  

majority rules. That's Well, that's not that's  not majority. That's uh that's our parameter.   Yes. And and and once you have that information  and you kind of know where the jurisdictions are,   of course, you all can do your own research, too,  to see if you can pick up newspaper articles or   what the chatter was about some of the different  policy issues, but we'll let you do that. the the   other sort of research project education that I  need and I'm going to imagine the other uh board   members need is how municipal finances work. Like  as I've barely gotten to dug into this through   Allen and Josh, it's a whole different animal  that very few people seem to understand. And so as   we're talking about the fiscal issues, I I think  we're going to have to have some understanding   of where money comes from, where it goes, how  we get support from state and federal. I mean,   that that hard to have that discussion. Brand,  that sounds like it's going to be several months   from now, but just putting that on radar. I'm sure  there's some type of resource out there on on the   different type setting to your left. Yeah, I I do  know this like from an accounting standpoint like   the the you know whatever the code we use for like  police up here is the same one that like Miami   is going to use. So I don't know if code is the  right term but um what's the general general Yeah,   but there's a term for it. Um chart of accounts.  Chart of accounts. So yeah, I'm not thinking   necessarily that level of detail, but it just I  mean up until this is even came up like I didn't   even know where the city gets it money from like  humbly. I I I don't know. And so I'm getting a   little bit of an understanding of that, but I  think we all need to have an understanding of   So you might be interested in let's say that the  city generates $20 million, but how much comes  

from the merchant tax? How much comes from  abil taxation? how much comes from uh state   revenue sharing that type of basic information.  Is there an interest in a copy of it financial   statements? Yes. Yes. Yeah. There the narratives  the narratives in there are quite interesting.   I can bring that next meeting and maybe  go and maybe go over it with us so we can maybe over that. I I know that we're limited to  two hours, but it sounds like we have an appetite   for specialist presentations during each of these  sort of if there's a need to go longer, you know,   up to three hours. I know it may not work with  everyone's schedule and things they've got going,   but if there's something really in depth that  we really want to come out the other end of it   and not wait to a second or third meeting,  I mean, I think we just be flexible. Yeah,   I'm not suggesting that that be done in the  next two weeks. I think we're I'll bring you   the financial statements. You can look through it  and then you can decide where you want to focus.   But I do have a uh governmental accounting 101  class that I can provide. Yeah. Yeah. Because   to use a phrase my dad used to use, I'd be like  a monkey looking at a wristwatch. If you told me   I can read financials, but I not that level of  detail like I need some context for just even   where the stuff's coming and going and probably  did. Yeah. Um so just just purely putting it on   radar. I don't think any of us need to look at  it. speak up between now and October 2nd. But,   you know, as that thing comes up, I think  that's going to be something that we need   to be educated on. Absolutely. We  can do that. I can I don't know.

Okay. I I would like to circle back to what  Cecil said about the time frame. I think this has   probably been the most in curious meeting. We've  had a lot of questions, right? And it sparked even   more questions further down the line. Um, one, I  would like to know what if any of us have ideas   for how to engage the public outside of this  meeting structure. You know, what is that going   to look like between now and the next meeting? And  then two, is it 3 hours? Is it two hours? I think   leaving the flexibility open to are we covering  the right things? We're we're not allowing   ourselves to get too far down a rabbit hole on any  of this stuff right now, but I think the further   we get into this, the larger the opportunity gets  for us to get down rabbit holes or be intentional.   I I will share with you guys, I guess this will  be my role as the chair and I've just seen a lot   of board meetings. As long as the conversation's  productive, I'll stay as long as we need to. If   it starts becoming secure circuitous or redundant  or whatever, then at that point at some point you   just have to agree to disagree, right? But,  you know, if we're moving the ball forward,   we'll stay there as long as we need to. I'm with  that as long as you can. Yeah, for sure. Um,   but I like I like your looking forward and for us  to think, you know, different ways that we can get   out into the community. I think if we did that,  you know, possibly one or two times, at least two   times. Do you guys have any suggestions on getting  more input from the citizenship? Yeah, I mean I   would say that um you know uh we could host a  town hall u like we do with the commission um   you know for the public u you know these two will  love you know giving up a Saturday morning but we   so right now I do one myself and the five elected  officials uh Nevin comes in super casual mode but   uh the first Saturday of every month uh we host  a a town hall in the in the rotunda and that's  

more for the citizens um the vertical Uh yeah,  I would say you know 15 people, you know, I mean   most of them are ones that come to the commission  meeting, but there's been a few additional ones.   We have our third one is this coming Saturday. Uh  but the way it's been structured is our virtual   workshops are more for the elected officials to  communicate, not vote, not make decisions. And   then the town halls are are really strictly for  the citizens to come in and talk about whatever   they want as it relates to the city of Panama  City, ask questions, uh express frustrations,   uh give ideas. Um and so, uh you know, Brandon's  been to I think both of them so far. So, I mean,   it's um that that could be one option. And I don't  think you need to do one every month, but maybe we   strategically plan three over the next eight or  nine months for y'all to kind of like a third,   a third, a third or something. This is even on  the table. How this is not a loaded question.   Would you guys feel supportive of like aligning  participation on our issues with that type of   meeting? Is that even an option or would you think  it needs to be something independent? Like would   it make sense for basically as you're having that  public comment period on Saturday also say and by   the way we're right in the middle of this charter  review thing too. So, you know, let's try to get   more people there. Or do you think it needs to  be something standalone? I think we should do   both. We should have something standalone and we  should entice the people that are already turning   up because they they're paying attention. The town  Yeah, I'll talk to the mayor, but I mean, again,   the town halls on the first Saturday are not like  like the workshops, the mayor and I kind of decide   what what they're going to do. the the town hall  like we just were like, "All right, what do y'all   think?" Now, at the end of it, sometimes there'll  be some back and forth with the elected officials,   but obviously there's no voting. We don't we  were careful not even to try to get a consensus   because it's not an official meeting. And so,  yeah, you could conceivably combine, you know,  

maybe I'll join, you know, like every third  one or something throughout this process and   that's something we solicit feedback on. I would  I'll talk to the mayor. I would be surprised if   he had any issues with that because he loves  public participation. Is Is there a way for us   to do this meeting in a workshop style where it is  broadcasted on on YouTube? And it is you're Yeah,   we're streaming. I don't Are we recording it?  Just recording. No streaming. That's right. So,   we record but starting but starting next time  we will be streaming because we're going to be   on Zoom. Yeah. I think that'll be an opportunity  too for citizens to engage in the comment section.   I know that was super important during some of  the workshops. I don't know that we I don't I'd   have to figure out I have to understand how  that works because we they can't engage with   us but we could potentially go back later and  look at the comments. Always comment it. Yeah.   Type their comments. I just don't know how we  I got to find out that how do we save that? How   do we collect that? But no, they will be able  to interact with y'all uh starting with the   next meeting because we're going to be utilizing  Zoom. Have some issues with the comments. Yeah,   comments. We have to be careful on that because  I you know I don't know how you know with public   records and it's it's a lot to to stream record  and then also people raising their hand wanting to   potentially communicate during the public comment  section. So um I don't know about the comment   things but but we can always they say hey you know  please send emails to you know to us and we can   set up an email address you know uh you know like  you know charter review at panama city.gov gov and   set that up so that if anybody emails that, the  five of you and the three of us all get that email   uh to solicit feedback from the public. Well, I  I've seen different ways of controlling, you know,   when it's a wide broadcast and you really don't  know what people are going to say and you're   trying to control the timing, stuff like that. And  I know several that I participated in, you would  

have to like write in your chat what your topic  was and then someone got on the phone and said,   you know, this have a short conversation  with you and then you were allowed to then,   you know, say your few words. It was sort of  like culling through. Do you know what I mean?   So unless someone's just like intentionally want  to just harm you and lie basically on what they're   going to then that would I don't think there's  a whole lot of people out there that would do   that but you know it was just a way to um sort  of um yeah I I don't know the record yeah I   don't know that I would want my staff deciding  who gets to speak and who's not. I mean really   u the way so we do it with Monday morning with  the manager uh we we use Zoom and people virtually   raise their hand and then I recognize them.  So I think what I would say if they virtually   raise their hand the chairman would recognize  them and and they would be allowed to speak up   to three or up to five minutes. Um and it's  it's not really for us to decide who gets   in. It would be up to him to say hey please  you know please mute this person if they're   being belligerent and if you know or or start  talking about you know unicorns or something.   So, if I can make this request and and I my  wife tells me and Alan tells me I come across   significant jerk. I promise I'm not trying to  do that. Yeah. I I know we're an advisory board,   but I guess it's still a board nonetheless.  And so, what I try to do is tell my boards to   make decisions and then have staff help out  with suggestions and things like that. So, I   think there's a very clear request to help us with  public participation. Absolutely. So if you guys   can come back at the next meeting and say here's  the suggestions that we have whether it's aligning   it with existing meetings. I mean you've got a  very willing board here that's willing to do our   own time have our own meetings whatever else. So  if please like give us suggestions for we can hold   it here we can do it with that and then you know  that's the objective is what can we do to get more   public participation and then are you all okay  with that and then let them figure this problem  

out like I I know the problem you guys help with  the solution. Is that fair? in including you know   having a meeting outside of the parameters of this  office of this building is something that I think   we should consider also I just think only because  we are required to record them like we just got to   keep in mind that you know that the technology  truly I mean you all know the legal parameters   of those things so if you say that's a great idea  Brandon but we can't do it that I get it I totally   understand that but it would be the type of thing  where you say hey I can organize this thing for   you here if Cecil wants to go there we can set  this up for you I guess that's that's our request   I mean, my experience has been you can take  your um dog and pony show on the road and   you just have you know portable thing or I don't  know you know what connecting with the city and   your processes if that would work but we've done  things like that. So so to to make the I guess   request clear to staff what would you like to see  at the next meeting as far as an outcome for you?   will different ways for us to do it and sometimes  it's going to be what you've done before you know   that you're very comfortable with and you'll say  like you brought the example of you having the   town halls. Um, so that would be one way uh for  us to have a a town hall specific to us, you know,   our issues. And the other one was mentioned,  you know, make an announcement at the end of   the town halls that you already have have with  the city commissioners. And a third thing is   like take it to take it out into the community.  I think that would be extremely wellreceived   and I think would generate a lot of interest  especially if gave people you know notice. One thing you might think about too uh we're  doing something new this year which is virtual  

workshops and the commissioners are all zoom  in and there's no decisions made no votes taken   uh but they talk. there's no public either.  It's It's been interesting. But but that format   may work well for like if Jan were to give a  government accounting 101, she can then share   her screen and everyone seeing the same thing and  then you have the little boxes of the individuals   that are on it, but it would just be uh the U5  and then typically I mean we could be in different   screens but typically staff is together. Um but  that but but whether it's government 101 or some   other specialized thing that you want information  on that way not all the information's being dumped   in one long meeting. It's kind of parcled out  and it's recorded and you can tell people to go   look at it. You can go back and look at it. just  that that would be an idea that what uh and and   that that has just started this last few months  with us. So, two things. One is I'd like to see   on the agenda for the next time just a general  staff update. We do that on public participation   options. Well, a standing agenda item is just  going to have some kind of level like staff   updates and then we can fill it out from there.  Okay. Well, I have a whole list here that No, no,   I'm I'm I'm talking big picture here. So, like as  we do agendas, I would think that the you know,   after we do approval of minutes, let's have item  six be a standing basically like staff update.   Okay, we can fill out what those updates are,  but then you guys can tell us where we are with   things and and all that good stuff. That may be  where the League of Cities presentation is or or   whatever's in there. And then I think what the  request is from the board is that for the next  

meetings there's a staff update on suggestions  for increased part public participation. Okay. Yes. Neon were you were you just mentioning that  we could potentially do a workshop instead of a   meeting? A virtual workshop instead of in Yeah.  In addition to Yeah. Yeah, because that way we   can get the specialist presentation out of the  way, not have to do it in the at the meeting. Or   we can Yeah. Come to the meeting to make come to  the meeting have already been an idea. I like that   idea because it it I I was surprised how well  it worked. Okay. because the this share of the   screen and you got the information and you talk  through it and you're still able to ask questions   uh during that process and then it's um but that  was just another way to get information not all   at once but then it would it it is very public you  can go back and watch at any time and and it can   be w streamed as well. So, so back to the comment  on so I'm I watch every one of them on YouTube and   I'm one commenting away me and a few other people  that like attend meetings. But there's you can see   the comments in the paper trail underneath of the  YouTube video that's engaging and you can go back   to it. We could go back to it if there is comments  aloud. They can't participate, but they can make   comments under the video that could ask specific  questions to drive engagement. That make sense?   Yeah, I I don't know how that works. So, so the  problem we have with that is introduce yourself.   Cody plan, senior IT manager for the city. Um,  so the problem we run into with that is while   we're live streaming, the comments are live. We  edit the videos a afterwards, stabilize sound,  

and cut off any, you know, blank areas at the  beginning and end and re-upload the video. All   your live comments are lost at that point.  um they're still there. We can recover them,   but they don't transfer to the new video. So,  it creates kind of a weird dual video issue. Um,   okay. So, I did see that on a few things where  they said they deleted all of our comments,   and that explains a lot. Don't delete them.  They are still there. We can get them if needed,   but they're harder to find unless you have that  original YouTube link. But Cody, when you upload   it then then you can make additional comments at  that point after you go back and watch it after   the fact and those comments do remain. It does  take us a couple days to get that process done.   Thank you, Cody. Well, wouldn't it be possible  for you knowing that they when you modify it, it's   going to drop out. You just save them. You know,  you save the chat, you save the comments, and just   copy and paste it back in. I'm not sure by I go  back to why modify what needs to be changed in   the entire video that needs to be improved. Why  modified from the original audio issues? Some   people speak quieter and some people are louder  and so sometimes it's really hard to hear one   person or another cut out of recess like we may  take a 15-minute recess recess at a commission   meeting and they'll go in there and they'll book  that. So it's just almost instantaneous. They'll   start usually start live stream 10 15 minutes.  Yeah. Kind of before the meeting to make sure that   you know they don't miss when it when it gles in.  And those are just little things like that. Well,   I definitely had a problem listening to the  YouTubes with just a quiet voice and you're   so frustrated. Speak louder. Yeah. Yeah. That's  what they're trying to do. and the county just you   know sidebar the county did put in some different  mics in the last few months so hopefully it's not  

as much of a problem anymore so but yeah I would  think see about if you could you know copy the   chat and then just paste it in some way we'll look  into it copy paste works for dummies dangerous   it's not for IT people but it's for well no  it's for lawyers That's that's what I said. JP, nothing further. So, I'm good. I really  appreciate you asking each of us what's on   our mind and remembering what we said before.  That's really helpful. Well, I appreciate that.   I I appreciate the trust in you guys and having  me chair this. I think that's an important role   is to get every race feedback. I I I the first  two meetings have been fun. We haven't disagreed   on anything yet. Um I'm sure that's not going  to always be the case. Um I'm saving it. Yeah.   Everything's changed. Um I will say and I'll I'll  I think we'll all do this, but I'll speak for for   me and Evan here, like, you know, I really want to  try to get to a point when we're actually putting   pen to paper on stuff that we do kind of review  and at least have the substance where we want   it. We may not agree on what it says, but like  I'll work directly with you, not to the not to   the exclusion of everybody else, but so that we're  discussing like actual policy and substance during   these meetings rather than just like worksmithing  things. Um, so that'll be I think that'll be   helpful. And then I mean I appreciate you guys as  staff being so open on this stuff. You may leave   here and go, "Oh my god, who are these people on  this charter review and they don't know anything?"   But, you know, I do appreciate the education  you guys have done, the willingness to go get   the league and the financial education and and  humor us on some of our requests for how to do   different meetings and things like that. Like,  we don't know. And so, I appreciate what you guys  

are doing. You're very welcome. Yeah. All right.  With that, is there a motion to adjourn? Yeah.   All right. All right. Second acclamation  Cecil. There. All right. Thank you, guys.