Board of Zoning Adjustment - Special Meeting

Yeah. Dreaming and um and recording All right. Um, I'm going to call  this meeting of the Italian Village Commission   to order. Um, our next business meeting will be  Tuesday, December 30th. Um, be happening. That is   happening, right? As of now, I'll check in on  attendance and it might be canceled. Okay. At   12:00 p.m., um, the next month's hearing  will be Tuesday, January 13th at 4 PM.   um could swear you in, Nick. Um raise your right  hand. Uh do you swear to tell the truth to the   best of your ability this evening? Yes. Okay.  Um introduction of commissioners present. Paige   Kaplansky, Shannon Salvador, Joe Bardi, Jordan  Smith. I'll let Commissioner Sudi sit down. Um Jason Sudi. Do we have a public forum?  There are no items for public forum. Okay.   Do you want I can pause and then you could  do staff approvals. Give me a sec. Go ahead. Okay. You're already somewhere in staff,  right? Yep. You're you're cooking. All   right. Approval of staff approvals. What  page do we have today for our beginning?   Looks like two. Wow. Page two. Gotcha. Okay. Can  I have a motion for approval of staff approvals?   So moved. And a second. Second. All in favor?  I. And I'll read through for abstensions. 1096  

say. So on 714 North Eye, 157 Warren. Uh 266  East. That's it. No abstensions anywhere.   All right. Hearing none, it's passes as voted  on. Okay. So, going back to the start. Um,   do we have a motion for approval of the  minutes from November 10th, 2025? And do   I have a second? Second. All in favor? I opposed  and abstensions. Okay. Motion carries. With that,   staff, do we need to know anything before we dive  into this agenda? Um, I don't believe so. Um,   I haven't heard from any applicants. So, as  far as we know, everyone will be arriving soon,   hopefully. And your first applicant is present.  Okay. Well, that makes it easy. Um, then we'll   call you up to the uh the table here, 1119 Mount  Pleasant Avenue. It's COA2500977. If you want to   have a seat, and uh once you get settled in, we'll  get you sworn in. All right. Will you please raise   your right hand and state your name for the  record? Buzzy Biddinger. Is this on? I think   it's working. Yeah. Okay. And do you promise to  tell the truth in your testimony to the best of   your ability this afternoon? I do. Excellent. So,  we'll have staff and then we'll go to you and then   it'll be our turn. So, up up for you, staff. Yes.  Um, this is a request for action for signage um to   install a 26 and 12 inch by 13inch metal hanging  sign that hangs 9 ft from the ground with the sign   bar being 11 ft from the ground. and to install an  outdoor camera. Um, the work has been completed.   This application is the result of a code violation  with the number listed in your agenda. Um,   there was no December business meeting, so staff  analysis is that the installed sign is appropriate   and does follow the short north design guidelines  for signage. HBO staff placation on the agenda as  

the outdoor security camera falls outside of the  scope of a staff approval. Um because the work has   already been completed, HBO staff directed both  portions of the application um to the commission   for review and approval. But the recommendation  on this is approval of the application COA2500977 as submitted. Um the basis for that  recommendation is the short north   design guidelines um on signage pages 3.37 and those are the pages. So, that's all. All  right. Nice and easy. I love it. Um, yeah.   What do you have for us? Hi, everyone. My name's  Buzzy. I'm the owner of Studio West 614. Um,   we moved to Mount Pleasant in July, I believe.  We're going into our fourth season. Um, we are   a dance studio. We are, um, an inclusive space uh,  particularly for LGBTQ plus youth and adults. Um,   this move was extremely exciting. um business  is booming and I I want to first apologize. I   didn't know that I needed permission for this  signage. Um I was also in the middle of breast   cancer treatment. My brain was kind of all  over the place. Um I am now cancer free,   so we're on the other side of that. Thank you. Um  so I I am I'm very sorry. I would have absolutely   uh requested for this. Yeah, I agenda from  our um our previous uh studio. I I didn't have   none of this was was a thing before.  So, I I honestly just didn't know. So,   I am very very sorry and I appreciate you all  taking the time to meet with me and um hear my   case. Big deal. Honestly, it happens. It happens,  does it? Okay, that makes sense. So, we'll just   talk through it. Um uh anybody want to jump in?  Have any thoughts? I don't have any issues with   the sign. I think this camera is similar to what  um we've seen on other businesses. It's like very  

like the market right next door to where I live  has a very similar Yep. Uh like two or three on   their building. Um so I have no problem with that  either. Other thoughts? Yep. I'd agree. Okay. No   comments. No comments. Carly, you can jump in here  in a second if you need to. Uh yeah, no comments.   Uh, the one thing I will say I'm very excited  about is last year on the annual garbage pickup   day for Italian Village. Uh, this was like four  bags of garbage like right around here because   it was before you moved in. Okay. It was like  an abandoned zone and it was I'm just so glad   somebody's in here. Oh, good. There were tires in  up there. Like it was bad. It was clearly a place   loitering and just like things were getting tossed  out. Nobody was caring for it. So, okay. Uh this   is a huge improvement and this is very additive  to the neighborhood. Um and I think it's uh it's   great. There's no no issues with the sign. Um you  know just a lot of things you don't even need to   come in for. But if you just contact staff if you  want to do something on the exterior they can tell   you whether or not wonderful it's something you  can do just on your own. You might fill out an   application. You may or may not have to come in  here for most basic things. You don't have to do   anything. Okay. So just so you don't get stuck in  a similar situation. You know there's kind of a   large concrete area out front. if you ever want to  do anything out there, just consult with staff and   they can let you know if you need to pivot or keep  moving forward. That is wonderful to hear because   I was going to ask if I could Our sign is so small  and I think I would like to have something where   it's more obvious that we are a dance studio. I  think a lot of people miss the sign completely.   Um so I mean I I can reach out a separate  time, but yeah, work with staff. Um, you know,   one of the things that's pretty, um, uh, ingrained  into the neighborhood, as I'm sure you're aware,   is there's a lot of art components. Yeah.  So, while there are signage requirements for,  

um, location and size, uh, there are a lot less  requirements when it comes to art. Okay? So, just   think about it that way. if there's something that  especially since you have a bit of a blank canvas   here since it's a nondescript building and you got  a big area in the front if there's some way you   could you know maybe incorporate art to indicate  to people that dance is happening there would love   that would be great for us and it hopefully be  really nice for you yeah I would that's that's   what I had in my mind so perfect love it sounds  great um the other thing you can always do if   you have a concept that's really basic as basic  as it is you can come in for a conceptual review   which just means you have no obligation to do  anything you can just come in and we'll talk to   you about it and then we'll give you our opinions  and then okay you can pursue it or not. Awesome.   So hopefully very easy. I'm glad to hear you're  doing well. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. With that,   can I have a motion for approval? Yes. Okay.  Motion to approve. Motion to approve COA2500977 as submitted. Do I have a second? Second. All  in favor? I opposed. Abstensions. All right.   Great. Thanks a lot. Good luck. Thank  you so much. Appreciate it. All right,   we are Do we have 79 Hamlet? Is that what  you're here for? Yep. I believe the only   applicant currently present is for application  um four or four or your Warren you're Yeah,   we're Are you ready? Ready to jump right  in? It's exciting. Don't even have time   to catch your breath. Okay. This is  uh 86 Warren Street, COA2501282-8. Oh, no. That's not Never mind. That's it. Two.  I'm done. I'm done saying it. Um and if you will   raise your right hand and state your name for the  record. Steve with Urban Order Architecture. And   you promise the truth to the best of your ability  this afternoon. Excellent. All right. Staff. Um  

yes. This is a request for action for an exterior  building alteration to replace um 24 original wood   windows with new Marvin Ultimate aluminum plaid  wood windows which are from the approved list   and to replace two non-original windows with new  Marvin Ultimate windows. Um there was no the staff   analysis there was no December business meeting  and we note there are two non-original windows   on the property that HBO staff would support  replacing as they are currently aluminum windows   and I'm sorry I can start scrolling um through  these photos as well. Um, HBO staff did conclude a   site visit to examine the condition of the windows  in June of 2023. Um, following the site visit,   HBO staff determined that the existing windows  on the property were historic and in repable   condition. HBO staff advised the applicant um,  oh, we advised the applicant of the site visit   in these findings and the applicant requested to  present the windows to the commission for final   determination at this hearing. Um, HBO staff  from the current photos still find the windows   to be historic and in repairable condition. Um,  our recommendation on this one is to split the   application into two parts with part A being the  two non non-original aluminum windows and part B   being all of the original historic windows.  Um, with the recommendation to approve part   A for those two non-original aluminum windows  to be replaced and to continue part B to allow   the applicant time to explore the repair of those  windows. The basis for that recommendation is city   code 311611 um 2 56 and and 12 and the Italian  village guidelines on windows and that's all.   Okay, over to you. Um, reason that I'm here, I  understand that historic preservation office and  

staff is always about repairing original fabric.  Uh, in my experience, it a few years ago, the   historic preservation office went through all of  that process about windows and when to repair and   what if we're replacing them, what should they be  replaced with? Um, and I've I've gotten approval   to replace many windows in historic districts. And  I've also tried to me or my clients have tried to   fix these old windows and it's just sort of  a stop gap. Like they still don't function.   We end up replacing parts of them like rails and  styles and the wood that that we use now is much   worse than the window or the than the wood is that  is in those existing windows. And in this case, we   also have some non-functioning storm windows that  whatever they're those are also sort of obscuring   any original fabric that we have. So, but those  those would be removed then if the new windows   were put in place. The storm windows would they'd  sort of be integrated? If we got new windows,   we would get rid of the storm windows. Gotcha. Um,  so it is sort of an arduous process to repair old   wood windows. I've done it. It's mostly it's it's  just not as successful. So I I believe in this  

case my client would just leave the windows that  they have and then maybe we would look for storm   windows. But I'm also not having a good luck.  Nobody's making storm windows anymore. So yeah,   you know, we have failing windows, bad storm  windows. We don't have a great option to get new   storm windows and to fix the existing windows.  We're just sort of What's uh what's happening   with these the ones that are swinging? Those  are in that side dormer that's on the second   floor above the porch. Okay. And you can  sort of see that those don't fit. I don't   know where they came from. Would would you be  replacing them with something that was similar   or completely different? We the same simulated  divided light casement window that gotcha. Okay.   All right. Who wants to dive in on this one?  I have a question. And maybe this is a silly   question. I don't know. But when you look at  these photographs, the interiors in almost   all cases look beautiful and perfect. And then on  the outside is where the rot is occurring. Is it   because of flashing? Am I just getting the wrong  picture because I don't know exactly what window   I'm looking at because they aren't labeled.  Nice job of labeling them on the outside,   but then the pictures I don't think have a label  in them. So, I'm a little confused. If you look at   If you look at that window. There's deterioration  on that bottom rail that somebody sort of tried   to putty or I don't know what they were trying to  do, but it's that's deteriorated. And then there's  

another there are shots of the window open.  So when you when you see that open, it's the   side styles are hollow from where the is there no  flashing? What's going on that there's Well, the   this is the interior window. So the flashing would  be No, but I mean on the exterior you see that. Is   it flashing a flashing problem? Why are I mean  these some of these windows look really bad. Um, so originally the windows were installed within  the brick wall and then water would go down to the   sill and wash out. Then sometime they put storm  windows on. And when you put storm windows on,   they're supposed to be weak holes at the bottom to  let that water out. Painters like to [ __ ] them.   So then any water that does get between the storm  window and the prime window causes damage. They're   probably decades old storm windows too, right? Oh  yeah, they're Yeah, they look old. Yeah. I mean,   even if they didn't [ __ ] them, they easily just  could have gotten plugged by and there's a lot of   paint. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know  if that addresses your question. The flashing   would have it probably wasn't originally flashing  on the original wood window because it's setting   back three inches from the face and everything  would wash out still. So, the homeowners have   done cosmetic improvements to the inside to  basically try to make the best of it. Yes. Yeah,   I gotcha. But you can see like there's there's a  photo of like the lock the right upper and bottom   sesh. They don't line up. So that doesn't work.  So then somebody drilled holes to put nails in to  

Yeah. hold the windows. Yeah, I saw that because  and this could be fixed with re-roing and all,   you know, all of those things, but the upper  sashes drop or or they're cocked shut. Yeah. Yeah.   Understood. All right. You're a you're usually a a  window person. What do you think? window per Well, I think it's I mean from a cost perspective  right now with the funding that's available,   it's cheaper to renovate them because you can get  like 20 grand a year from the Department of Health   or lead abatement and that's the renovation of  your wood windows. I have a couple friends doing   that right now um in Victorian Village. Um, I was  very sad that I couldn't do that because mine were   already vinyl. Um, so I mean that I guess that's  why I think we haven't really been seeing a lot   of these requests because I think people are using  that money to renovate. Um, so that's a question I   have if you guys have looked into that. I did not  because these aren't I I would say like I get it,   but they're not beyond I don't think any of  them look like fully beyond repair. Like if   this were my house, I would and I had free money,  free grant money, I would do that instead. Um   because I mean these obviously have lead paint  on them, right? um all the pain out of Yeah,   they um so my question is has that been looked  into? And then if it hasn't I don't know. I I   can't really remember. I feel like it's just  been a while. I forget what we've been doing  

very honestly. I mean it's been a little bit  people It's been kind of case by case basis.   Yeah, I I I think that the like that right there  again, it's very hard to know just from the one   shot, but like for me that one seems like that  could probably get replaced, you know. Yeah. Um,   and so yeah, and I guess that's that I am  sympathetic to your um your argument that   if they all need replacement physical pieces  that would then substitute for the original,   like it's kind of like how many pieces then are we  replacing until it's not the original window. So,   um, from from my take, I I think this one the  exterior shots look pretty bad to me. Um, the one   thing I'm really liking in your argument is the  potential to get rid of the storm windows because   it's such a nice house. It's such a cool house and  uh I think that would be an additive for me. Um,   so that's why I'm feeling a little more flexible  about it. But again, I I I can't say that that's   definitive on my part. So, other thoughts? I have  another question. Will you be able to duplicate   the profile of the windows and the trim and  everything as it is? Yes. That's critical,   I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think Marvin has done a  really good job of this is what an old window   looks like. Yeah. And all of the trim pieces  and things will be the same. Yeah. So, um, this will be installed to the back of the  existing brick mold exterior trim. So,   the wood brick mold stays in place and you're  just replacing everything. Yeah. So, um,

yeah. So there's a square exterior trim. Then  it drops in and our new window will just be that   profile that would exist where the storm windows  are installed. Now um sort of to Jason's point, these are really old storm windows that were haphazardly installed. um they're  they're helping but they're awful. And then to Shannon's point, even if we  could get a grant to for lead abatement,   lead paint abatement, I don't know  that I still like that solution. I   think I would still push because of the  storms. Because of the storms. Yeah. Oh, you hit something. I was just going to  say, um, for me, the sashes don't look as   bad and those look repairable. Um, I'm  looking at photo 14. You know, I think   having more photos like that to show the actual  the jam, the head, that deterioration, I think,   would put it over the top for me because I just  don't think there's enough photographic examples,   you know, and I think you're saying that that's  predominantly the case where the pain is peeling.   You know, there's probably Dupoint issues with  that storm panel where there's condensation   and there's no ventilation with that weep. But,  um, you know, I think more examples to kind of   show how that deterioration has happened on the  frame would kind of put it over the top for me.

What do you think? Yeah, I would agree with that  too. Um I think the from the standpoint of like   you were saying the function of um the operability  and the um fact that you since these are single   pane and you have to have that storm window. Um  both of those like functional pieces are a good   argument for replacement. Um but I would agree  that seeing more of that uh evidence of the jam   um which is harder replacement rather than the  sashes like he was saying that might just be a   lot of paint or whatever it may be. Um I  think will help um sway the commission.   Um, so we have Anybody else? I'm sorry. I just  had one more thing is um we always require a   drawing or for each condition that would show how  you're going to, you know, do the new brick molds   and that kind of thing. So that would be a part  of the submission. I actually have that. Good. I   thought so. um from many other applications with  regard to actually that image there um kind of   the more craftsmanesque button pattern. Are you  guys sticking with that or Yes. would you guys   consider doing something a little bit different?  Um seems a little stylistically a little different   than the rest of the house. Yeah. Um I can be  open to that. it. I would be open to something   else. My sort of my go-to is if we don't know what  it is, we go back with what is there. Um I don't  

know like we did a garage there with a four light  casement which I'm sure that my client would be   open to that or is that what we're look is that  what you're looking for to get it more double   hungish? Yeah, I think that would probably at  least for me I think that would be kind of a nice So um with uh the transition in staff just to  get a sense of what your com comfort level is um   you know sometimes what we'll do is uh sort of a  subcommittee based on the recommendations. Are you   comfortable with that or is that something that  you'd rather go a different direction? What what   are your thoughts? Um subcommittees are you know  um very typical. I've done them before and I'm   like if that's your preference here, I definitely  think it's appropriate. Okay. Um do we have a   couple folks that would be willing to take that  on if Steve was able to submit some additional   photos to uh you know kind of give a get a sense  of that whether they thought there was Yeah,   I can do that. Okay, sounds good. So, sounds like  Joe and Paige are willing to take that on. So,   with that um sorry, the subcommittee consisting  of who? Oh, Joe Page and Okay, thank you. And then   um so then we could make a motion that's  essentially contingent upon the their findings   in that process. Um and then ideally uh get it  resolved based on what what is shown and what   we what we found. Um so am I moving it to go to  subcommittee or I have to move to approve? I think   we move to approve with the subcommittee's  review. Is that right? Yeah. Approve on the   condition of the subcommittee's final approval.  One more question. Sure. Nick, do you know if  

there are other photos from the staff site visit  or did you put them all in here? I put them all in   the that we had on file into the packet. I think  it was sort of weird because application started   with Connie Torbach. Oh, okay. And let me see.  Uh, my client got frustrated and then it was co   things happen. 86 a long trail of individual  property uh applications. We got um I have May of 23. Oh, well now I'm seeing these here.  These are the from May of 2020. If you do you   does the commission want to see these photos now?  Honestly, I don't think so because it's been five   years, six, five and a half years. So at this  point, I mean that that a lot can happen. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Five and a half years.  A lot can go wrong. So all right. I   thought my I appreciate you digging this.  Thought my WebEx stopped. We're all good.   So um motion then. Yeah. All right. Uh  move to approve application COA2501282 um on the condition that our subcommittee  um reviews uh submitted materials including   um additional photos and um details of exactly  how uh the window will attach to the brick. Is   that the correct way to say that? Okay.  Um yeah and and if they are good with   um the level of damage uh if they decide  that the level of damage warrants replacement  

um then the product that you have submitted is  good to go. And did you want the subcommittee   to review the casement style the final  casement style collection? Okay. Yeah.   All right. Do I have a second? Second. All in  favor? I I oppose and abstensions. All right,   sounds good. Great. Thank you. Um All right.  Stay away from that lead page. I don't know.   No doubt. But I'm telling you that you should  look into that for other clients that program.   It's like 20K. You have to do it. You can't do it  all at once if you want all the money because they   only give you like 20,000 a year. There's like a  maximum because it's tax return. It's a like it's   a tax credit. It's pretty good. Um but yeah, Mario  Yeah, Mario is getting 40 grand out of that. It's   pretty great. Yeah, and we get nice. So, thank  you. Neighborhood. Thank you. Um okay, so staff,   is there anything else we can do without  the applicants here? We've got three. So,   there were um item five in particular, we thought  the commission, if there was a business meeting,   might be able to move that to staff approval.  And so, we can read that into the record. And   if you sure can approve to if you if you're  going to vote to approve a submitted,   you can do that here without the applicant present  for any of the cases on the agenda. All right,   let's try that one. So, we're going to do  688 North High Street, which is COA2501292. Um, this is a request for action for an exterior  building alteration to remove two existing six   panel wood entrance doors and to install two  light uh two full light storefront doors per   the submitted materials. Um, and the staff  analysis here is that the two existing doors   are non-historic six panel doors. The applicant  proposes replacing the uh doors with storefront   entrance doors. And given the doors are not  historic and the replacement doors are on the  

f on the first floor in line with the storefronts,  HBO staff find the storefront storefront doors to   be a suitable replacement doors in the proposed  locations. Uh the recommendation is approval   with the basis for the recommendation being  31611 standards for alteration 25 and 6 and   the Italian Italian village guidelines on doors.  Okay, excellent. Anybody have thoughts, comments? My thought is that um even though they say those  doors aren't historic, that there is a certain   kind of character to having that much wood uh  versus having a completely open glass door.   And I like the fact that there is something  in there. I don't know that we can ask them   to keep that for that reason, but I'm assuming  they are also keeping the wood panels that are   above the door as they are, which has a  certain kind of historic characteristic,   which I think contributes to um the historic  nature of the building. So, I'm okay with it,   but I just anybody else felt like maybe  there shouldn't be so much wood removed   and replaced totally with a glass store. I um  would agree with that. Um any other thoughts?   Like I'm thinking that the panel at the bottom  of the door from the detail that they showed   is maybe the height of the bottom of the six  panel door. So, it's relatively small compared   to the other pieces along the front facade  where it's probably 18 or 20ome inches tall.

I don't know. Does anybody else feel like this  um is too contemporary? You got you got a thumb?   Yeah. Um so, they it's truly just the door panel  itself that would be replaced. Is that correct?   Yes. Since this basically this lab is coming out,  putting in the new as far as I'm understanding.   Let me check their specifications. Yeah, I would  have just with all the um wood trim around it,   it would be nice if it could be a wood door with  I don't mind how um whatever amount of glass they   would want to see in it, but I think that um would  align a bit more with the adjacent storefronts.   Um, and then maybe like Carlo was talking about,  you could get that um, larger like kick plate vase   if it was more of a 3/4 door or something. Um, but  I I guess that's a yeah, it's my opinion on how it   could align with the neighboring properties and  the rest of the case itself with those two wood   panels above and the clear story window above too.  And if there's more information you'd like to see   from the applicant, I think you can definitely  proceed with continuing just Yeah. Okay. And get   we can bury this kind of feedback and see what  else they can submit for um the January hearing.   And knowing which of these styles, you know, is  it narrow, medium, or wide? Yeah, it's the medium   that they've seeded. I like I think that the wide  is would probably do what you're requesting. And   then maybe if there's a band at the base as well.  I mean this is this facade is so nicely detailed.   So I hate to just see this contemporary art even  though you know where it says the gallery is  

relatively contemporary. But I I do think you know  sometimes when they just send us a product cut it   they're not specific enough to let us know. We  need to see what that elevation is going to look   like. Yeah. I feel like this one shows the like  exit push bar from the inside. Um, so that would   be very obvious from the outside as well if that  was the straight glass. Yeah. Yeah. Which Yeah,   maybe they haven't thought this through. Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I can really I can um when   you all continue it, they'll get that continue  load and I'll incorporate all this feedback so   they can kind of reconsider their their selection  here. So for that one, just um a hardware   um specific hardware that they're planning to  use would be helpful for the for that one as   well. I almost wonder if it could be slightly  taller because it's you know if you look at the   elevation you know the transom bar goes across  pretty consistently and then they added another   one to that. Oh, you're right. It's like almost  like a spacer. It's a fake tree. Yeah. So I almost   wonder if you can go taller with it. I think I  like that idea because I think then the glass   s suits the frontage of the building because it's  in line with all the other Yeah, it creates a nice   continuity across that storefront. Probably going  to be a relatively custom door. I like it too, but   I I don't mind the double transom. I thought it  was interesting that that ended up being that way. But I'm sure you could get a tour of  that. I wonder if that's painted glass.   Interesting question too. Yeah. Could be. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Sounds like  we're going to continue this one. Um,  

anybody else have any other comments before we  do that? Can I have a motion to continue? So   moved. And a second. Second. All right. All in  favor? I opposed and abstained. Okay. that. So,   that one is continued till our next regular  meeting. Uh, do we want to look at these other   two while we're here just to see what's happening  since we didn't have a business meeting? I say you   certainly can. Yeah, let's give it a shot. So,  let's look at 779 Hamlet, which is COA2501268. See what that's all about. Um, this was a request  for action for landscaping. They would like to   replace the existing concrete with new concrete  per the submitted site plan and to install two   additional 36-in ballards between the sidewalk  and alley. um staff analysis. While there was no   December business meeting, um this application  was placed on the agenda for the commission to   review due to the proposed placement of the two  additional ballards. Um the ballards from the   site plan, as you can see, are proposed to be  placed directly between the end of the sidewalk   and the alley. So, it's kind of near or in  the ride ofway. Um, and uh, in addition to   commission review because it is close to the ride  ofway or in the right ofway, the applicant will   also likely need review and approval from building  and zoning before installing the Ballards. Um, our   recommendation on this one was continuation and  that's based on city code 31613A and the Italian   village guidelines. Oh. Oh, yeah. Right now, which  application you here for? Um, 692 street. Oh,   yeah. Okay. We were just talking about that.  So, um, we actually moved to continue it already   because you weren't here. Sorry. Um, but, uh, I  don't know what procedurally, what can we do? Um,   you I've actually had this happen, but just a  motion to reopen the case. You need a second and   affirmative vote and then you can retalk it and  rediscuss and also then revote again. Okay. So,   why don't we uh just put What do we need to do  with the one we have open right now? Move forward  

and come back if that's what you prefer. Okay,  sounds good. So, that's what we'll do. So, can   I have a motion to uh reopen case? Oops, I gotta  find it, of course, because I just uh COA2501292 and a second. Second. All in favor?  I posted. Okay, so he's reopened. So,   now we are on that case. If you could raise your  right hand and state your name for the record.   Uh Derek Bonar with the Wood Companies. And you  promise to tell the truth to the best of your   ability and your testimony this afternoon. Yes.  Excellent. Okay. So, we already heard from staff   and you missed our discussion, but now we'll rehab  our discussion. That's okay. We're just going fast   today because nobody's here. So, um tell us what  your thoughts are and then we'll kind of get back   into that. Perfect. So, uh we've got um apartment  building we've owned for a long time. Um we've   got two doors that enter from uh High Street. The  main entrance for the apartment building is on the   back. So, the second and third floor are um almost  all apartments. Um, we've had some issues recently   um quite a few of them of people using that as  a water closet and um camping and sleeping out   there. So, uh on top of that, the door has been  pried open. You can see in the arrows there,   there's some quite a few busts and broken stuff.  So, um, we can replace it with the same door,   but with our issues that we're having, um, we  think if it was aluminum and glass, it would   be a little more transparent and less likely to  be someone's home and toilet. Fair sense. Um,   I'm open to suggestions on the storefront. uh if  you're like half light glass or you know we just   typically it seems like the neighborhood from all  our buildings we have down here um are that medium   style aluminum door with the clear glass but  if you have suggestions we're open to it. We're   trying to do black because it's pretty much black  there and that's about it. All right. Who wants   to talk about the stuff we talked about? I could  start um sympathetic to what's going on there.  

that part we didn't know and um I can imagine that  that would be uh kind of jarring if you come down   you try to open the door and from either side and  somebody is sitting there. Tough situation I know.   Um, so the thing that we felt like is this is such  a nice building and the detailing on the front of   it is so nice that we were hoping that there  could be something that doesn't go all the way   to just straight glass for the entire area of the  door and that maybe that band I don't know if you   could put up the band. Um, Nick, could you show  That's okay. Could you show the drawing that shows   the wood along the bottom of the facade along the  the wood trim piece at the bottom of the windows? I'm familiar. Of course. Yeah. So, just so that if  you had something that um wasn't so contemporary,   completely glass, there could be a little bit of  uh trim on the bottom, maybe on the sides. One   of the things that we um are asking for is more  details about the door itself, the exact widths   and how a drawing that shows how this door would  fit in there. Then the other thing that we talked   about was the transoms. We notice that there's a  double transom. Um if we if you look at where the   um gallery sign is and maybe zoom into that um  I think this picture might show one of these I   think there's actually a drawing of it. Yeah. And  so there's this double transom and you can see how   that aligns with the um sign band to each side of  it. um that if there's a way that that could be   um to make sure that you're incorporating that,  we thought maybe making the George holler and  

only having the one transom sign kind of going  across there. But just really all of those things   looked at so that you're retaining this really  nice historic character of of the building as   well as then compromising and giving you some  visibility that you need. How'd I do? That was   a good great run. Anyone any other thoughts to  add? Think um nope. I think she covered it. Um,   yeah. I just wanted to make sure you're clear  that essentially how you have those two wood   panels above your door. We were wondering if you  could eliminate the bottom one and have that door   um full height there to match. You see the 686?  Yeah, they're a little funky because both sides   are a little bit different. So, I think it was  a taller door probably originally like whenever   the building was built. I think the six panel  was probably when we renovated the building in   the early 80s, like when it was Rigby's back in  the day. Um because it's like they're they're   different heights. They're just all kind of weird.  So, we've probably to get a normalish size door.   Um it's a 68 door now. They're about it's already  been cut and trimmed and they're both not 68,   but they're 68 in air quotes. Um so, we could go  with like a sevenfooter or an eight foot. the 8   foot would be kind of almost all the way up,  but that it would all need rehattered and so   it would all kind of not get replaced, but need  to be kind of loved. Um, but I think we could   go with an 8ft door and that would basically  get you it would remove that bottom transom,   you know, within a close proximity. Um, and you  guys would rather see a more historic looking   door. I know that sometimes we get in trouble when  it's historic looking but not historic. That's why   we were thinking storefront. Um, yeah, it's kind  of a interesting spot here because you have like  

these two setback portions that I mean they're of  the facade but they're also very distinct I think   on what they function as. So, I'd be okay with it  being a little less. Uh, I like I would prefer the   wide style at at the very at a minimum instead  of the medium and then potentially some type of   like SDLs. Yeah. Because um you had brought up the  idea that if there's going to be that like a bar   in the middle Yeah. you're going to be able to see  that from the outside. I don't think by occupancy   counts we'll need to have a full panic bar. But  the one I highlighted that like what is that a 3/4   inch tube? You know that's like a making that  thicker and maybe having you know like get to   where you were Yeah. I'd be I'd be happy doing  the wide style. We looked at a half panel door   like half glass but it just it felt like it was  trying too hard if that makes sense. Busier. Yeah.   But if if you would rather see a wide style I'm  totally open to that. And if you want us to put   SDLs in it, I mean, we it's not that horribly  expensive. I don't know that. How about that?   Okay. I think it's better without. Okay. It's  a wide wide style 8 foot. Would frosting the   glass be better or worse. I think I don't know. I  think that may hurt harm your problem. No. I mean,   no, no, no. We prefer I mean, we just It's Yeah,  it's just a staircase behind it. It's nothing. Is   the other glass completely clear or is it tinted  at all? Uh I think the all the other storefront   glass is that uh historic what is it? Starfire  glass or whatever that like ultra clear stuff is. I think from a security standpoint it's better  to see somebody that's standing there than   having Yeah. Okay. Um not to keep putting these  things off on other people since we didn't have   a business meeting, but does anybody interested  in doing a subcommittee for this one or not?  

You want to wait till they have more information  next month. Would we I guess would the sub would   it just be moved to prove if they can do the 8  foot? Yeah. Um no panic hardware 8 foot tall.   Yeah. I think we just want to see the you know  see the final drawing of the door so we know   it's the right Yeah. Keeping so 30 8 foot  wide style. It's roughly I think if they're   both different it'll be like roughly like a 1x  six on each side. We can do that in real wood.   We'll paint it black to kind of hide as much of  the frame as possible. Staff, are you okay with   that level of description for you to take that  on or would you rather have subcommittee to take   a look at it or would you rather have a drawing?  I say I can we can definitely like take it like   have it be the staff. I just want more detail  on like what final materials you want us to   review. I think like do you want us just like this  level or do you want a drawing or I mean I'm as   long as you're comfortable. I'm comfortable.  Okay, I think we should have a drawing. Um,   it doesn't have to be elaborate, but just so  that we make sure that we're on the same page. Um, and then so with all the other details,   is was that enough with regard to the  wider style 8 foot um wood trimmed?   Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Excellent. Okay.  With that, somebody ready to make a motion? I have to I can never operate.  688. This is 688. Correct. So,   wait, was it a sub or staff? I think staff.  Okay. Um, so motion to approve COA2501292 with the condition that the applicant will be  submitting a drawing showing an 8 foot wide style   door um with height. Sorry, what you said wide.  Eight foot height, right? Eight foot height with  

a wide style door. There we go. Oh, I got you. I  just you said it right. I didn't understand. Want   a foot wide door in there? Yes. Um and then uh no  panic card um shown I think that was that correct?   Clear glass. Clear glass. Yes. Um wood painted  black. Did you say that? With the trim around   the rest of the to match the existing surrounding  trim. All right. Do we have a second? Second. All   in favor? I opposed and abstensions. All right.  Thanks a lot. Thanks for making it in. Yeah. Hey,   no problem. We're just clicking through today.  Um, okay. Let's go back to what we were just   talking about. 79 Hamlet Street, which is  already open. Yes. So, um, so I'm I guess   I'm seeing the poles on this drawing. Yes. They  be in the real world here, there, and there. Oh,   I see. Next to the where the sidewalk comes out.  I bizarre. It's almost like they need three,   not two. I'm actually liking that side. I don't  really understand. Well, can I say something? Oh,   yeah. So, I was going to say they say this  one. I don't know why it is we're getting such   um abbreviated drawings these days, but there's no  detail. You still need a detail through concrete   showing if it's 4 concrete, what's the the base  and the subbase underneath that. And then they   also need to show is that going to be a turndown  slab so that there is a a kind of edge to it that   can take up the variations in the driveway and  then in the two ballards that are in there which   I really don't if there is a curb why do they  need ballards? Um the actual curb I think it's   the edge of the sidewalk. Yeah, that's the but  well then that kind of counts as a turned down  

slab but not exactly. But then um they're showing  them so that they're partially in the concrete and   partially out of the concrete which would not be  something that you could do. So they need to think   that through what they're really trying to do  there. And so with those um is there support for   the ballards at this location with the Okay, I'm  trying to I just not sure on that. I'm trying to   get a sense if it's even in their yard or in the  rightway. I'm just It's just a little hazy sense.   The ballards that are in the other location,  the support is at the protecting mechanical   equipment and they're in on the property  that's in the other side of the concrete.   But to protect the entrance of your sidewalk but  not your porch like why like at that point are we   having a ballard every five feet or not five feet  but three feet it it doesn't make any they would   need to tell us why they want those ballards.  Yeah I think it's that discussion anticipate   and I'm I'm I know there'll be a continuation um  people are coming around that corner on the alley   and sure disrupting it. So, I think that's  the motivation, but I not to I completely   agree with all the commissioner's comments and  I'll relate to you though just to provide that   context as well. I mean, we have a lot of houses  on alleys that don't have ballards. Exactly. So,   yeah, I think we would want to be very careful.  I think one of the advantages here too is that   they have it looks like they have room for stone.  Yeah. To move put some more rocks closer to the   front of it. Right. Yeah. And they have bushes  that are providing height. I was going to ask   about like alternatives to ballards, but they're  open to anything other than Yeah. something more   like natural. Mhm. Yeah. Something natural,  I guess. I don't know. Why do they want the   faucets? They don't want their house. Is there  a reason they need concrete? That sidewalk as  

opposed to like compressed gravel or something  or as opposed to it just being grass? Yeah. Oh. I feel like so I think one thing that might be an  interesting discussion with them because since it   doesn't appear that sidewalk really goes anywhere  is that what would they be interested in maybe   like instead of like a lower decorative ballard  without the concrete and more of them but you   know it would be Oh that's interesting like a  stone Yeah. Yeah. our little wall or something   like something back there that was that was more  delineating the edge of the alley and then it's   grass on the other side because right now I I  again like you said John I'm not really sure what   the purpose of this sidewalk is and I also wonder  if they truly understand the reason this concrete   has broken up is because it wasn't leveled out  right so car's right install all that concrete is   correctly is significant well there detail right  about the base. Yeah, because this just, you know,   they obviously didn't um install that correctly.  Yeah, I think they're going to need a curb. Yeah,   it's going to have to be reinforced in some way in  order for this. But you can turn, you can take the   concrete and pour it like this so that you don't  have to do a separate curb, which costs a whole   lot more money. Yeah, I'm just wondering if Yeah,  I think they need to look at But I'm with Joe,   why why do they even need this? If they wanted a  walkway so you weren't walking on the the road,   you could just do a compressed gravel. That would  be a fraction of the cost. It would look better. I   would save the money and walk in the alley myself.  But that's just me. You would say what I would   save the money walk in the alley. That's just me.  Yeah. Or they can plant something here. Got hedges  

all along there so people aren't going to run into  their house. the down spout is like smashed up   against the concrete which can't be helping their  Yeah, I think there's just we need a discussion.   Yeah, I think is Would the commissioners like  to see any sort of survey or property line   study for this application? Yeah, it may doesn't  have to necessarily be a survey at this point,   but if they have a survey, that'd be awesome.  But even if they could just get an estimated   edge of property versus the edge of the alley just  from whatever public sources are available. Um,   as long as we started with that, then we can at  least have the discussion. If they have a survey,   that's awesome. But I count asking them  why they want this concrete sidewalk. I   I have an example of an alley loaded property  with Ballards, but no sidewalk that's similar.   Yeah. If you want to pull it up on um the Google  Street, it's on uh the corner of Mount Pleasant   and like East 4th. I could probably get  this address. Uh 1166 Mount Pleasant. It would help if I opened it in Chrome. You just  got you got binged. Being the search engine that   never quite found the right thing ever. I love  it. All right. Um now if you just like turn   around like a 180. So right there to the left.  Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Good example. Yeah, that's a   that's much more Yeah, good good call. See, to  keep people from driving into their house. Yeah,   especially like bigger bigger trucks like delivery  trucks who turn down the wrong way. Like I've seen   a semi trailer try to go down the side before.  All the buildings around me plus mine have been   hit by cars. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think  that's interesting. I I do think not that we need  

to keep piling things on your plate, but another  thing I think would be an interesting discussion   kind of across historic neighborhoods is what are  appropriate ballards and like some kind of set   of standards for where when and where they go in.  We're just totally making it up allowing something   like that. So, what are they doing? Yeah. You  know, what are their natural alternatives? And   they have even tighter alleys than we do. So,  I'd like to see that. It's typically just to   repair the curb and relay the sidewalk. Yeah. Like  it's like but like do they have ballards anywhere?   Like do they have any protection for like can  you remember what only in front of gas meters   typically are they permitted like as like an  actual like code standard requirement? They also   have like their alleys are kind of like curbed  alleys cuz it's ours are obviously like free   brick homes. We were a little bit homes. Yeah, you  were definitely more bored. Were you but that's   terrible. Okay, that's interesting. So I yeah I  think that's a that's it's worthy of a it's worthy   of a discussion. So may if they can come in and  we can kind of talk about it for say did that come   through? It's a good question. All right. So with  that I think I would recommend that we continue   this one if everybody's all right with that. Can  I have a motion on that one to continue? So moved.   And do I have a second? Second. All in favor?  Opposed? And abstensions. All right. That is   continued. our next regular schedule meeting. And  then one more to go. Um, who's the second there?   I'm sorry, I missed it, too. Okay. Uh, which one  did I miss? Fourth Street. Fourth Street. Yeah.   All right. Fourth Street. So, um, I'll open Oops,  I blew it. I shut it. Uh, we'll open COA250127872 North Fourth Street. All right. Um this is request  for action for an exterior building alteration for  

the installation of a mural. Um to paint a forest  mural on the south elevation for the submitted   materials and rendering. Um noting that the mural  does meet the requirements outlined in the short   north design guidelines for murals, but we note  that the proposed sealant for the mural has a   5-year product life cycle. So, HBO staff would  recommend the commission require the applicant   submit a long range maintenance plan to ensure  the mural's condition is maintained properly on   a high visibility side of the structure. Um, our  recommendation was approval with the condition   of a long-range maintenance plan, but without  the applicant, they can't agree to that. So,   of course, it be continuation in that case. The  basis for that recommendation is the short north   design guidelines on murals. Could we uh could  we make them the motion just contingent upon   whether they agree to that? Um, I think because  it's like an additional material, you could,   but if it were a change to the application  overall, then they'd have to be present,   I think. But because you're just saying if you  submit this, then it's okay. I think it would be   allowable. Gotcha. So, just real quickly, my take  is since it's, you know, we've kind of since this   fits a a wall that we say we can do hard on, uh,  I'm in support of it. I will also say and again we   don't get to comment on the art living in Jeffrey.  I I think I got the point already what it used to   be. I could move on from the representative art  about that. Not to say they we shouldn't do this   one. It's just I I feel like it's a the theme  is now reached its conclusion with this one. So,   I just am putting that out in the world for ether  so future artists can be more in more in tune   with whatever muse they have and don't have to  necessarily tap into the historic legacy of the   industrial section of the area. So, that said,  I don't really have anything else about it. Um,   what other who else who else has comments,  thoughts? Is there an issue with page 10   of the application where there's a deadline?  That's them basically saying please approve  

this so that I can tell GCA that I'm doing  this and yet they're not here. Yeah, artists. But that would be I mean if you all  continue it today that would not have   any bear like they would just have to  wait on theirs and go to GCAC. It's   um no agreement with the commission or city or  anything. Right. Right. But yeah, this is one   of the locations like if everyone remembers we've  been going through these locations with the Short   North Arts District. So we've approved this  location that they can cover the whole thing.   So now it's just like the final like yes, go do  it and we aren't allowed commenting on the art   itself when it comes to our approval. Although  Jason just Well, you can you can pine I didn't   say everyone vote for it. I can't I can't base  my vote on it. Um I actually one thing I like   about this is the chance to get rid of this giant  phone number on the side of the building. Yeah. Um, so any thoughts on what we we like to do  today? I mean, I'm fine with approving it and   just saying with the condition that they agree  to submit a maintenance plan. I agree. Agree,   too. All right. Is that your motion? That's my  motion. All right. Do I have a second? Second.   All in favor? I opposed and abstensions. All  right. Look at that. We did it. Um, okay. Uh,   I think that reaches the end of our regular our  application agenda. Is that correct? Yes. All   right, sounds good. Uh, other business today.  Uh, we have none here. Okay. When do we do the   um the reappoint stuff of of officers? I know  Morgan called me about it. Is January. It'll be   on your January agenda. Okay. Sounds good.  Chair. All right. Do we have a new person? What's that? Oh, the new commissioner to take um  Oh, I haven't heard yet. I haven't heard. Oh. Um,  

do you know at all? Do you know what the timeline  is for the the appointment? Oh, for the vacant.   I've not heard any names being sent up from our  office yet. So, I believe our office is still   identifying a name to send up to the director.  Okay, sounds good. I know people have sent stuff   in from last time. Well, I wasn't sure what to  do because someone had approached me who I think   would be good. They can email Yeah. the IVC email  and we'll forward it on to the committee in our   office that Okay. select candidates and things.  Uh, another thing, uh, just two seconds. Um,   uh, we were discussing, Nick and I were discussing  about the the wonder bread, wonder bead, wonder   bed sign as it continues to lose letters. So, um,  in checking with uh, the basically enforcement,   our best mechanism to get it rolling is to make  a 311. Uh, so anybody that feels like going on   and doing a 311, I will do one. I'm sure my wife  will do one because she really hates it. And I'm   going to mention it tonight at Italian Village  uh Society uh that you know hopefully if we get   a a steady stream of people complaining about  it that will keep the heat on um because they   are supposed to be maintaining it as part of  that overall development. So it's essentially   is an unmaintained portion of the property. Uh,  so you know, I wouldn't be surprised, and this is   total speculation, I wouldn't be surprised if at  some point they came in and wanted to, you know,   change the whole thing over to simulated LED  or simulated neon. At this point, though,   it's just like burning out like one one thing at a  time, which first of all sucks because it's cool,   but also it's kind of like one of the signature  things of the neighborhood. And you know,   if you go into any gift shop that has Italian  village stuff, it's probably one of three things   that are on the picture and now it's kind of  ridiculous. Yeah, it just looks dilapidated and   junky. So anyway, that's my new thing. Try and  do something about it. Um, another thing. Oh,  

I do want to while we're just sitting here  talking, um, that the Short North parking whatever   that committee is called that I'm on, I can never  remember the name of it. That meets once a year.   um where we used to get a whole bunch of money  for uh the parking Lua fee back in the day,   which of course no one does it anymore since the  code changed. Regardless, it's um the group that   interfaces with um with Bets's group and that uh  you know, basically there are a number of mobility   processes that go through the Short North that we  authorize. and you know the continued things are   free bus passes for residents of the neighborhood  um assistance with lift rides for people who   work on the street um all kinds of things like  that. So it's good it's it's you know it's been   really successful program um the one I wanted to  mention to all of us was that the city is piloting   micromobility corral on the side streets along the  short north. So you may have seen some on the side   streets. I believe Warren has one and um gosh,  I just saw another one. I think maybe on third,   second, I can't remember. Anyway, they're around  the side and they're essentially painted boxes   where a parking space would be and it has a symbol  of microobility, like a scooter, a bike symbol in   them. And they're working with the two scooter  companies to geoence the trips, which means that   it's restricted on where you can park those when  you're near High Street. In other words, you have   to send a picture of it in the box and the AI part  of their analysis theoretically will reject your   trip if it doesn't go it doesn't end in there. So,  it's could be really cool uh because if it works   there, they're open to, you know, considering it  maybe for fourth or fifth or other places around   the village and around the other places of the  city. Uh and it obviously would reduce clutter   of scooters and and things on the sidewalks  dramatically. So, that's that's kind of what's  

going on. Other than that, you know, just kind  of cooking along. Other business, any thoughts? All right. Do I have a move to adjourn? I move  that we adjourn. Do I have to say the meeting   of I don't think so. We're not that formal.  Um, do I have a second? Second. All in favor?