Police Accountability Board Agendas - Regular Meeting

Okay. We'll call the order the Police Accountability Board for the 01/22/2026. We welcome everyone here. We'll get approval of the minutes. Everybody that got the minutes from the November board? Got a motion to approve the minutes? I move to approve the minutes. Second? Okay. All right. All in favor? I'm sorry. That's why I called. Yeah. Anyone? Discuss?

Alright. We're good. Alright.

Discussion with the law enforcement agencies. If y'all would like to come forward so we can if this we do apologize for being a little tardy here, but we are still figuring out how long and when. We really appreciate y'all taking the time out of your busy days to come up here and talk with us about, you know, how we're doing and and how we can be better at it. Would you like to go right to left, left to right?

Well, first Yep. Acting chief Myers, would you like to introduce yourself? I will give you that. Yeah. Hi.

I'm Ted Myers. Meyer. I'm I'm the the interim interim chief chief policeman. Policeman. Okay.

Good. Welcome. Yeah. Welcome, man. Appreciate your first time. Right?

This is not my first time. I used to Oh. Thank you.

What? That's my No.

It's not my turn.

Go ahead. It's my first time in this capacity.

Yes. Okay. Good. Chief? What?

Chief Dave Armstrong with the Thurmont Police Department. I don't have anything. No initial comments.

Okay.

Lieutenant Jeff Hyde with the Sheriff's Office, also no initial comments.

So, do think that we did send you all some questions, or Sarah did, and we'd like to get your feedback on them, if you can. It was, what, five questions, sir?

I think there's four, so I'll just go ahead and go through them. You know, in the December, I had sent out the annual report. Can I have your agency's thoughts on our annual report? Was enough in it? Was there not enough in it? Anything you'd like to see in it?

Did get feedback from the schoolhouse on why don't we change the formatting to what it was this year. So that's really, did we meet your

Training and standards committee.

Yeah, training, I'm sorry. Did we meet your assessments or goals of what you thought should come out of this forum?

For the annual report?

Yes, sir. I

did have something that could be more clear. 48 complaints, 97 violations, 90 officers, six cases recommended for administrative charges. Was that six of the 48, of the 97, or of the 90?

So my understanding can I okay, so my understanding because I had that question too, I had to read it out loud to my husband and say, I'm a little and I do statistics for grants all the time, and I

was like, I'm a little confused here?

Does this mean so, think one of the things that it means is that there were where is it? Here we go. That's okay. There were 48 complaints, all total. Out of those 48 complaints, there were 97 alleged violations within those 48 complaints. So that means that some complaints had more than one complaint. Right. Some cases, if you will, had more than one complaint. And that there were 40 officers I mean, 90 officers involved somehow. So maybe some of those cases had more obviously, more than one officer was involved. Does that make sense? Is that?

I I do know that there was a couple that or the ones that I saw, we did have four or five camera body cameras and and, officers speaking to that charge or charges. So that could be that's right. But it could be clearer. I mean, I think I also brought up some comments on it, but if it's not clear enough to you, sir, then yeah, we need to maybe refine that a little bit better so we can make sure it's clear to anyone reading it.

But out of those, was it $40.48? I don't have it in front of me. But out of those 48, six of the 48 complaints there were administrative charges. But it can be broken down more if that's what we need going forward.

Yeah. Think so, Sarah. Is

the information on those six cases on the website somewhere? Like, what the cases were, what violations were sustained?

No. I don't have them on the website.

Okay. It might be in our group, though. Right? Because we have our our letters from the ACC there.

But they are not posted on the website. No.

That's for confidentiality reasons.

What I'm talking about actually in the forums that you go and look at the documents and all, thought they might be there.

Those are that's in the SharePoint in ACC's secured confidential files. That is not on the website for anyone to see.

Yeah. That's that was the only area I saw that I had more curiosity about.

Right. So is it possible for the sheriff's office or or any of the police departments in the county to have access to those just to see if they wanted to see, you know, what the violations were just in case they're also seeing something in their own departments that aren't coming to us

for whatever reason? The the law the law enforcement agencies like Chief Armstrong, Lieutenant High, I mean, they are they can see in their SharePoint. So they have Okay. They have access. Okay. Alright.

So just to What's

that question?

Just to clarify

You can't.

It's we do not have access to the other agencies. So if FPD or Thermon submits a case Okay. We don't and for privacy reasons, we're not suggesting that we have it. Just to clarify.

Okay. Okay. So as part of the question about those six was wondering what the violations were to see if there was a pattern?

I just noticed in the 24 comp they had it broke down by type of complaint, like domestic violence, use of force, hate crimes, violations, that kind of stuff. So

Well, that that might be helpful in terms of patterns, us looking at patterns. And for As

long as you have that information to come to your conclusions and make your recommendations and trends, I don't I do not need that information to function.

So Okay.

Our our ACC chair will be speaking after y'all, so hopefully, he can he's taking notes and and can clarify some of it too.

He's got a more he's the ACC chair has a more broken a more broken down defined list when he gets up here and gives his quarterly update.

But but that is a good statement, sir. You know, how how do you know what those really what are they really the charges, you know, and and how flagrant was it or, you know, was it a very blatant, you know, disregard for for a certain law or something, or does it or was it a questionable one? And I think you should be able to see that or at least from we should be able to write to it to some to some extent, shall we, in the report to at least clarify it? Yeah. Okay.

It could be that were there's conflict. And given that, miss Ambros, if there is, I'm not I'm not worried about it. That was just my

Yeah.

From reading it, what I was, found curious or wanted more information about.

Alright. Is that the only question you had? Yes. Okay. Sir?

We had no issues. There was nothing unexpected, and I didn't need anything else added into it.

I concur. All four of the questions. Right? Oh, just the

first question.

We're we're we're still on the first question. Still on the first question, Bob.

Specific to number question number one.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

No issues or questions from the sheriff's office.

Thank you. Take one, Sarah.

Alright. Is what is your agency anticipating seeing as potential issues in 2026, if any if you have any.

Crystal, does that feel

like a trick No,

it doesn't feel like a trick question, but we are not anticipating any issues moving into 2026. We didn't have any in 2025 either. So we're fine. We're trying.

I would agree with that. It's one day at time just like everything else.

Right.

Okay. Do you have any upcoming events?

Chief, go ahead, please.

No. We

do not have anything planned either.

I expect that we will have if you're talking about, like, National Night Out Yeah. And Open House

see. Yeah.

I expect that we will have both those again this year. The deputy that's responsible for scheduling coordinating is currently out. Once she's back, I'll check on dates and make sure those are forwarded over.

I I think I have National Night out down as August for for now because I'm trying to plan ahead. But I think that's when I have but when you get the other ones.

And our open house is generally June or July. Okay. But once we have that finalized location, all that stuff, I'll forward it.

Perfect.

Fire and ice is also coming up, but I don't know if you were looking for those kind of

Fire and ice. Well, that's a little cold. Last but not least, any needs your age any needs your agency sees arising in 2026 for the agency itself or the community?

I think that's similar to the second question. Obviously, you know, Maryland legislature is in session, so we're monitoring that as far as upcoming requirements, training standards, whatever else may come out of that.

Nothing to add.

Especially, think that we could advocate for or at least be aware of. So if you do see something, if we can help you with it, if we could advocate for it or be aware that it's hitting your level too, so we should be looking at it. But just like the National Night Out, being able to go to the community and advertise what the Board does and how we are trying to be that helpful hand to to make things to make a change, you know? So anytime we can get to an event and with y'all in our our to advocate for the board to show how we're trying to make change, that would be good.

See, I hope I made that easy for you. That was all the questions that I sent. All

right. If you all have anything else, anybody here? Any questions?

Do. And this may be an ACC question. Sometime around November, December time frame, there was a young African American, young man, who was a boy scout. And I understand that he was put at a disadvantage, and it was through the sheriff's department. Do you have anything on that?

When you say do you have anything on so it was a sheriff's office incident. It was a complaint that was sent to the PAB and then forwarded to the agency. When you say do you have anything on it, Do you could you be more specific on that?

Do you have any details about the matter? Why was the young man pulled over or stopped?

So he was not pulled over. So that the incident with the Boy Scout, the encounter happened around 04:30AM. At 03:30, deputies were involved in a pursuit with a stolen vehicle. That vehicle crashed, and one subject was arrested at or near the car. One subject fled on foot As other deputies were responding to assist in the search for that second suspect, one of the responding deputies ended up behind another stolen vehicle, initiated a pursuit, and that pursuit went the same direction as the first one.

The second stolen vehicle struck a cruiser that was responding, and two subjects fled from that scene. So at that point, there were three outstanding subjects. Large search operation at that point for the remaining three. During that, deputies did come across the young man that was at the church about a mile and a half away about an hour later.

So he had nothing to do with the event?

When you say the event, the the permit Correct.

Here's why I and I think we need to address these kind of things. The the trauma that this young man is going through can't be erased. I'm dealing with enough issues with ICE and them going to churches. I don't know how to erase that. I don't know how to put his mind at ease that it won't happen again.

And being a 67 year old African American myself, there are things that I still get an edge about. There needs to be some type of reciprocity, I guess, is the best word in order to help ease his tension, the community's tension, and the parents. And I don't know where we go from here on that, but I think it's a subject that we need to face on a on a on a level basis. It's gonna happen again, and we've gotta have measures in which we can reduce the trauma or eliminate the trauma the best we can. I don't have an action in my head.

I just know that I've had to deal with these myself, and I don't have an answer. So thank you for filling me in on what happened. But again, my recommendation is we've got to address how to reduce the trauma. Understood.

Anyone else? Okay.

I'm trying to figure out how I wanna ask the question. So in terms of re helping to reduce the trauma, are you is your thinking taking you to, having some kind of conversation with that youth with from the police department so that he can see that you know, the police department isn't, like bad's not the word I wanna use, but is

it no ill intent.

There was no ill intent. Yeah. And that I I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out if meeting between the police department and some of the police a representative from the sheriff's office and this young man and his family might be a healing process, like, you know, of course, being a mediator, that's where I go, but I some kind of healing process.

So the footprint is much larger than that. It it can't just be with the family. It it's gotta be with the community at large. Gotcha. You know, the school system, the church.

It's gotta be a large footprint even though this is a and I'm not trying to trivialize it. This this is a small case and the bigger case of things. The the trauma that is going to be impacted on this young man and others within the community, it has to be addressed. And I think one of the things that can be done is going out and, you know, tap on the shoulders of, you know, the the church pastors, the other civic leaders, directors of of the school system. You know, you've got a college campus out here as well.

So start someplace, you know, to establish a foothold in moving forward.

Okay. But also have the expertise to to to deal with it and to try to bring the resolution or at least a different mindset to the individual. I mean, some people are not equipped well enough on a training, but also background and stuff like that to deal with that kind of stuff. But there should be someone, some agency within the the count the community to deal with that, to help deal with it. Right? And okay. That's what that's what I thought.

So I understand that it's a broader issue. But I was just trying to figure out if we started small, one piece at a time, and maybe a ripple effect if if I mean, I'm just trying to help you out trying to figure it out.

It this is this is going to cause us to look at this in a ripple effect. Yes. It's like throwing a rock into a pond Mhmm. And and you see the ripple. What you don't see is what happens underneath, and and that's the part that I'm looking to address. It is a traumatic event that occurs. I I still remember the times that that I got pulled over. You know, I've got an 85 custom vet, and I got pulled over. And the first question that comes out of their mouth is, is this your car? You just ran a once in warrant.

Now I'm a little bit older. I know how to deal with it. You know, putting myself in that young man's position, I I don't know with the amount of time that has gone by how do we we wrap our hands around a situation that is emotionally charged. So I don't expect to have an answer, but I do wanna plant a seed. And when we have events like this, we also have to look at the reciprocal side of it is what can we do to ease the tension not only within this individual, in the family, in the community at large.

Not pointing any fingers, but it's it's something I think we collectively have to put our our hands on.

So kind of down that route and not necessarily tied to that specific thing, but within your respective agencies, are there policies or procedures or standards or whatever other terminology we want to use with regards to how your officers or your departments kind of follow-up in cases like this where there's third party involvement. Right? Because the individual was not part of the first stolen car, the second stolen car, just wrong place, wrong time, bad luck. It is what it is. Right?

And there's other things there and I'm not discounting them or minimizing them just to focus simply on the question itself. Are there policies or procedures with regards to how your agent respective agencies handle sort some sort of third party involvement like that and and anything to that effect? And I apologize if I'm not being clear on the question in in and of itself.

So I'm gonna respond to what I think your question is. And if it's not, you know, for any display of force, use of force, we write a report. We have a it's documented. I believe in this case, it was around 04:30, 04:45AM. He was there on a scout function. I believe deputies on scene made contact with there were adult supervisors for the scouts. I don't know what the title is exactly. I don't know if they specifically spoke with the mom at the time. I believe they spoke with her later, but I'm not certain on that.

The the short answer is no. There there aren't specific policies if they're uninvolved in in what we are investigating at the time. Don't know the the specifics of this case, so I can't speak intelligently on that, obviously. But the there isn't a policy that says we have to in a certain amount of time. Now if it's a juvenile, if it's somebody under the age of 18, we have policies that mandate that we get in touch with a legal guardian or a parent to advise them of the contact that we had with them and why. But beyond that, there isn't anything that says that we have to follow-up in a certain time frame or at all after after the fact. If we've told them you're no longer involved, so thank you for your cooperation, and then we there is no there is no follow-up for that.

I'd just like to point out that the police accountability boards, it is within your mandate. Identify trends, make recommendations and changes to policies. I don't I don't know nothing of this case. But as the cases go through the ACC and you find issues you want addressed, I would put them in your annual report up to, the governor's office and with your suggestions or your input, because that is one of your one of the things under your purview, yeah, for lack of of better words. But I don't know anything about this particular case.

And chief, that's where I was kinda going with this. If if your response was we do have a policy What procedure? It's x y and z or procedure, whatever the case may be, fine. But if the answer is no, then to me it's okay, should we have one and what would that look like and how do you effectively craft one that serves the needs of the community while being mindful of any concerns that law enforcement or the populace at large may have. So I appreciate your answers.

So chief, paramilitary, understand the chain of command. I read this in a paper, and we all know that you you gotta give some monikum of grace when you look at the paper or look listen to the news on how much of this is BS and how much of it is is true. So I did not have an avenue at the time to pursue that, but I knew this meeting was coming up. To your point, you're right. You know, we have a charge upon us to take action, But at the same time, we have to be mindful of your positions and whatever policies, plans, and procedures that you have in place.

And if they're not in there as you alluded to, let's collectively draft one. So and, again, I'm not trying to pass the, you know, the buck. I I'm trying to figure out how can we come to the table together, put our minds together and say, okay. This is what we've got. We we send it through, you know, whatever traps it's gotta go to to get approved. So if if it's, you know, okay with this, you know, board and, you know, you know, Sarah says, I can be a part of it, I'd be more than happy to.

Again, you're talking about this specific issue. I don't I don't I imagine there was a complaint. I don't know where where it is in the process now. I don't know.

We'll wind up discussing

it. Yeah. So and each complaint is different. Some people are happy to talk it out, and some don't wanna talk to you outside of a court action. So a lot of that is up to the offended party on how they're interested in mediating it.

But I think I think what I'm hearing is that we don't have anything, you guys don't have anything is when something like this happens the first person was in the wrong place wrong time it's very traumatic for that person do you it sounds like you guys don't have anything that would deal with that not doesn't have to be in this case could be any of the cases where a third person who was not involved, you thought they may have been involved, but they weren't. Is there we don't do anything for that person after bringing them in, questioning them, figuring out they're not they're not involved, and they're just gone. So but you guys don't do anything else with that person. They just have to go back to the community, deal with the paper, deal with the news, deal with whatever, but you guys I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't, but I think that's what I'm hearing is if that is something you don't have

But maybe there should be a policy especially when you're dealing with adolescent. Know, somebody 18 that maybe has could develop, you know, some issues that they go through a counseling session with a third party, you know, and then and at least go through and see if there's some trauma that's left or anything that they can work on with the individual before he's released to the, you know, back like you said, pushed back to by society to deal with all the other things that are gonna happen or could happen. Especially when you're dealing with kids today these days, you know, the stressors they already have on them, and no matter what neighborhood they live in, you you have some some type of stressors on them. But as these things happen, do we have the ability to change policy and maybe get an agency that will respond to these things and make sure that at least we've taken all the steps we can to take an adolescent and walk through, okay, is there something here that, you know, long term trauma might be or maybe the signal's not there that, you know, that we think should be, you know, or or is it the individual now just got really a a bad, you know, bad situation and that's gonna deal with him the rest of his life, or do we have ability to catch that up front, maybe to work with the individual so it's not as bad, you know, as they as they work through it.

But I think you're right, chief. I think this is something that we can write or write to or address in our report or even address down the road, bring in some third party agencies in to see if they could help, you know, and and maybe that would be something. But, you know, all with y'all's cooperation, it's gonna affect y'all too, but I think you see the same thing that we're or we saw or we that you're talking about that there is trauma there, and how do we deal with it? And how do we make sure that we're catching it as soon as it happens so that we can lower the stress on the individual and and make sure that they understand what went on and what didn't go on. And and if there was something wrong, I mean, we have to, you know, step up to it and and deal with it.

But I think I saw the video on TV or something at what happened and, yeah, 04:30, I think that the community would have advised somebody, maybe law enforcement, that we would be out here and we're not destroying, you know, gravesites or anything, that we're actually protecting them as a scouting issue thing. And maybe they would have known, but that in the one individual probably wouldn't have been the one that got informed. Right? I mean, yes. He probably came out, you know, from way out of his area that he normally you know, his beat or whatever. But, anyway, I think we can address it. We just get our minds together, we'll figure out how to do that and work with y'all.

The the final thing on this, this is going to elevate from minors

Right.

To middle aged to seniors.

Yeah.

In the military, we have individuals that suffer from PTSD. I'm one of them. You know, there are just certain things that it it puts me into a block, And we have to be mindful as these cases come along. The age of the individual has to be taken into account. You know, the older the individual, there's some consideration. Middle of the road considerations and definitely minors. So

because parents might not be able to deal with either. They might just sweep it under the the door and not understand the the needs of that that that child, you know Yeah. That they're dealing with. I I agree with you.

So It's okay.

It's a fruitful conversation, and I I think, again, we we've planted a seed here. Let's find a way to make it grow.

Report because he might be able to answer some of our questions or some of your thoughts. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So Tom Humphries is now our ACC chair. So we've asked him a 100 questions.

Okay.

Good evening, members of the PAB. I am Tom Humphreys, chair of the Administrative Charging Committee. I'm here to give you a brief quarterly update from the committee. From 10/01/2025 to date, the ACC has reviewed 23 complaints of policeman con misconduct. Of the complaints received, nine are from the Frederick Police Department, 12 from the Frederick County Sheriff's Office, and two from the Brunswick Police Department.

The 23 complaints investigated contained 43 allegations of police misconduct involving 50 officers. Five have been unfounded, 15 exonerated, and three have been administratively charged. Most of the complaints are violations of LEA's policies and standards to include discourtesy, unbecoming conduct, and body worn camera issues. Three excessive force allegations were all exonerated. Three search and seizure allegations, two were unfounded, one exonerated.

One racial profiling complaint was unfounded. Six discourtesy allegations, two were exonerated, one unfounded, and three administratively charged. Two laws and directives allegations were all exonerated. The other seven allegations include failure to identify, neglect of duty, inaccurate information, falsified evidence, harassment and bribing, violation of Fourth Amendment's rights, and failure to deescalate. All allegations were Frederick County's first trial board took place on 12/18/2025.

This is the case that you brought up, sir. So while the ACC's work is finished, when its report is submitted to the investigating law enforcement agency, the ACC believed it prudent to keep itself informed of these proceedings, especially because the ACC work is in essence under legal review by a trial board. One ACC member, as well as Sarah and Kendall, attended to observe the public proceeding. The ACC notes two important takeaways from Frederick County's first trial board. First, because the ACC's report is potential evidence in a trial board proceeding, the ACC is exploring ways to point a future trial board to specific evidence reviewed by the ACC.

A trial board hearing is de novo, so the trial board members should review the evidence for themselves. If the ACC includes citations to specific evidentiary information in its report, a trial board will be able to better understand the evidence underpinning the ACC's report. Second, the law, as currently written, places prosecutorial responsibility on law enforcement agencies in trial board proceedings, but does not specifically provide a standard for presenting evidence. In Frederick County's first trial board last month, the attorneys representing the officer and the law enforcement agency chose to limit the evidence presented to the trial board. This is an occurrence that the ACC will continue to follow when another trial board occurs.

It may present an opportunity for the PAB to suggest a legislative change. These observations are being shared to provide the PAB with as much relevant information as possible. This allows the PAB to be aware of potential trends that may inform future reports.

How much further are you going to dig into this particular issue, or are you just gonna annotate it as part of your record, or is there gonna be any follow-up on the trial board?

On the the occurrence of the specific trial board or for future trial boards? Both. I don't think there's anything

What do you mean to do?

So if you're not satisfied with the information that's being presented to you, and this is just Joe Chandler, if if I'm getting something that I'm not satisfied with because evidence has been suppressed, I'm gonna come back at you. Do you guys do that? Will you do that?

Well, I I don't know if

The report that you gave is informational. And, you know, this is something you can we can look at that we're bringing that he's bringing to you as what he sees and what has happened to where if you're not happy with it again, this is where when I when I ask later in the year, is there suggestions for legislative changes? That way the ACC, we can see this. All we can do is pass take our observations and hand them over and say, this is what we see. This is what a legislative change should be and be put into legislation. Correct? Yes. Yes.

Go ahead. Yeah. My my I I think I'm saying the same thing, but my takeaway is that there's not much we can do about this one, because our our role ends with submitting our, finding. And then if it ends up going to a trial board, we're not really involved. We certainly aren't involved in the previous ones.

But moving forward, I think we'd like to try and develop more of a role, whether that's having an attorney present or somehow ensuring that evidence gets presented, all the evidence that we saw and we relied on to make a finding, ensure that all of it must be must be included in the record, because, frankly, it should be. I I think we're gonna advocate hard for that.

But I'm

not sure

we can do anything going backwards.

I think as a PAB's person on the ACC, we did take note of that, and we actually just had a lengthy discussion about how important it is when we draft up our responses to ensure that the data is in their calls. This was I think was a learning experience based on the feedback that we got. And and how do we ensure that the context of that opinion letter that goes back or charging is actually as accurate as we can make it and has everything that we need to get presented. So it's I think it was a very good learning experience because as the discussion went around, we I I I took a lot of takeaways too, but based on what the feedback was from Sarah and Kendall about what they did and did not do. But then again, the next trial board might be different, you know, and different lawyers and and but I think each one of them, we're

gonna

learn what how do we effectively execute our roles in making changes down the road, you know. And I think based on the what we saw in this last round, you know, is there any changes that we'd like to see? We were we were very cautious, and we didn't really add a lot of stuff to it, if anything. But I think our next go around when when the county asks us, you know, hey, we're going forward, you know, to talk about these laws and all that we have these inputs, especially about, like, the maybe third party counseling, you know, they go back and look at it. So there's I think we're learning as we go along, but we need to speed up because society is not slowing down and the and the issues are not slowing down, so we need to address them as fast as we can.

But so I think it's everybody should be taking note of how can we make our reports better for the next year. And this is these are the two two things right now that I think we're we're we will be adding to it. And I told Sarah today that was one thing is we get the report that we put out and even the things that we're addressing right now, how do we add that to the next years? You know, and make sure that we are we are being effective in addressing the needs of this, you know, this county. And also, I'm sure other counties are dealing with it, but it might be very low on their scope because a lot of them have a lot more issues than we have, but we need to address it, you know, what we see.

Agreed.

That is that fair to say?

Yes. Definitely. Does

the do you does the ACC plan on writing up something for us to look at to possibly put towards for a legislative change?

When the time comes, the the ACC can also write up and suggest legislate. So they'll essentially come up with stuff too from both sides. Like, you'll have yours and

Why would I mean, from what I mean, this is the first I've heard of it. Right? I'm assuming we're will we be getting his report and back to it? I mean, I try to take notes, but there's no way I can write everything he just gave us down.

I will I will send you a I will send you a copy

of this.

Yeah. Is it possible to get it before the meeting?

Well, it depends. There the ACC meeting fell the ACC meeting fell before this one. So compiling all the documents to date, we really didn't have all the numbers together until the end of the day yesterday Mhmm. Trying to include what we have just recently been through. So normally, the the ACC meeting falls after, so the data from the previous month would already be there. It's just the way this month fell. It's first. Sure. So but you'll I will send everyone a copy tomorrow.

But for the I guess what I'm asking is, I mean, I write the second one, not know what to recommend. I mean, I don't wanna wait until I don't know when legislative things are due. I think in the summertime, sometimes.

Get the the the last start asking me in July and then by September. So

Yeah.

You know, I will go in, and I will write up what both groups like, oh, you think your law needs to include this here. The ACC's part of law, they think they need to include this here. So they will be suggestions from both that will get written up and turned into the county executive to see if it will make her legislative package.

Okay. I think it is a little bit of a perfect storm scenario here, and it may not be all that common moving forward. But because in one aspect, what happens is we get sort of the investigation from the agency, and then we review all the evidence and make our decision. And the agency, in their presentation of the evidence to us, also sort of recommends punishment or, you know, accountability or not. And where it gets potentially tricky is when we when the agency says, we don't think there should be any blame here, and we disagree.

So then we send it back with some form, whatever the judgment is. So when that then goes to the trial if if it goes to the trial board, you have this scenario where the agency who is and through their attorney is tasked with bringing a case that they don't think should actually be brought. The their initial because we don't think this would we obviously disagreed. And here in this scenario, in communication with the attorney for the officer, they decided not to bring I don't know what just happened. Not to bring the evidence to to to show it to the to the the trial board.

So I think I would imagine many trial boards I don't know how they're gonna happen, but when they do, if the agency thinks that the there should be charges brought and the ACC agrees, then I don't think there's necessarily gonna be an issue. It's only gonna be when the potential is when we disagree with the agency, and the agency is now like, oh, I don't really wanna bring this charge. I think that's what happened here, and that's what I think would be most helpful for us to say, hey, the whole purpose of the ACC is to have an independent review. And if it somehow gets disregarded, it it's that's a big issue. And so I'd wanna where I think the the focus of the language So

your report never was heard at the trial board, is that what you're saying?

I wasn't there. But I my understanding is that part of it was, but I don't think if we know if all

of it

So that's the issue? They went back to the agency and they owned the report then and then?

Yes. I honestly don't know if they inter because we have a letter, decision letter, and I don't know if the letter in full was presented to the trial board or just in part, but what part of what we've been talking about internally is trying to write these letters in a way with as much detail so that if in fact, the whole letter is shown, it will lay out all this detailed evidence with citations to whatever we're referring to, not just he said something, but, actually, at this moment, at this, you know, three minutes, five seconds, he said this to sort of encourage whoever's trying to make a decision to say, hey. I wanna see the video or I wanna you know? That that was our strategy in

the There short was a closed session portion of this trial also. Right? So not all of it was for public's consumption.

Fair

enough. So so we wouldn't have known. The ACC wouldn't have known if they weren't allowed into that piece too. But I think you're right. You know, like you said, we're looking at how we're writing them and make sure the details there that sort of forces the issue. You know?

Good. It might Do

you have anything else? Okay.

It might be helpful, at least for me Yeah. To have maybe at the next meeting, ten minute present other than facts and figures, but what how you guys go about doing this? So I can understand if, you know, I don't need the the specifics, but maybe some information about what the h ACC does to get us to where what they're charging, what happens to those documents after you do them. I don't know if that might be I don't know if be helpful for everyone, but

You mean just or about a specific case?

One more time?

Are you asking about your process

in Just process in general, not a specific case at all.

Okay. I I can mean, answer it now. I can do it next time.

So I agree with that. It's not a bad idea. But there's Maryland Police Standards and Training Commission, if I have the acronym correct. If I don't, Wayne, I apologize. They do a really good course on it, and a lot of us that were here initially signed up for it, myself and a couple of other people and Sarah, and we went back for a second time to kind of see if there's any evolution in that process. They do kind of go into depth into that. And so what I think we're seeing here with the trial board is in the three and a half years that this process has been live, we finally For

our count.

Yeah. For our well, for the state across the board. Because it's In three and a half years, right, this is the first So trial every single process we have, it's crawl, walk, run. And and when we first initially started building out the PAB and the rules of procedures and everything else, and even today we were discussing there's things that we've there's gaps that we've missed that we identified earlier today. So I think now with a first trial board, we're now seeing and identifying gaps or some concerns that we need to start looking at for policy recommendations.

So we can move the trial board from crawl to walk slowly but surely. But there's until we get there, there's always there's gonna be something here or there that we're gonna miss. I think that's just where we are right now. It's just the nature of the beast. Maybe that could be

the topic for the police agencies and us to discuss next time. Mhmm. See what they think.

Quick question for you. After you have stood and listened to what goes on with the trial board and you've written up your your your notes and your replies that you want, how much authority does that letter have once it goes back through the chain of command that they have to answer it, not blow you off?

I'm sorry. Wanna make sure I understand. After the trial board

And you have your your written questions that you need to have answered, you're gonna submit that back in writing. Correct?

To to who?

I

I don't I don't I don't as an ACC, I don't think we're involved.

Because they do the ACC first. Okay.

They're

done. The ACC the trial board's effectively an appeal of the ACC's decision. Okay. But it's de novo review. Like, it starts from scratch. They don't have to

They don't go back to the ACC

They don't involve

It's it's a independent forum.

So it's a one way street.

Well, that's what we're saying the context has to be there now. And we it's what we were discussing at the the last ACC was we we have to make sure that we we contextually map it out so nobody can misunderstand what what the ACC saw and why they came up with the decision they did and how that's pushing forward and forcing I won't say forcing, but providing it there so it has to be written. It has to be read. You know, especially if it goes to trial board because we our our opinion, even the ones at the PAB and the ACC is going forward, it should matter. If not, we're we shouldn't be here, right?

But we wanna make it matter and also make a difference in in whether the person is, you know, trial is actually charged or not charged or whatever. But that from a different outside agency, we're looking at the same data they are. We're looking at it through, you know, not rose colored glasses, but, you know, pretty clear glasses, I think. And the the opinions and we we do sit there and go through it. Even the definitions, it took us a while to go through, make sure we all understood what this really meant. You know? What does unfounded really mean? What does exonerated really mean? You know? So that we all are we're all starting at the same level of understanding of these words.

And and when we say, you know, if it's unfounded or whatever, that, yes, I see that in that case right there, you know, or not. Because it's very you know, it's it's amazing when you look at the the the charge or the the complaint that went forward, and then when you look at the data of the individual, you know, how how it's so sometimes it's right on the money. Sometimes it's way out in the field, But but we're not there. So just like you're talking about the trauma of the individual, you don't see that. But you can see the individual's emotions coming out or how they're acting, whether, okay, I can see that.

You know, everybody's gonna have a different viewpoint of what they saw and didn't see. But I think we've been pretty close on the cases that I said in the last two meetings. Our discussions have been pretty not only just candid, but also very right on board with everybody else. Think our opinions have not changed much after we've got the common definitions, you know, and we looked at them. So I think as we go through this, we'll see the crawl, walk, and run that we'll be in a better position to make comments and recommendations and formulate what we think is a trend or not where maybe some of these other counties won't have to because they're they're dealing with so many cases is, you know, it's it's the last thing on their mind.

They're just trying to get the numbers down or trying to get deal with the cases, if that makes sense. Yeah. Thank you very much, Tom. We really appreciate it. Alright. So next will be amending of the rules and procedures. Sarah, you got any comments there or any inputs?

Everything when I sent out the rules of procedure, all the wording we changed at the November meeting, so this is the vote to approve.

When would be the next time that we get to to see these again for a change? Because like we were saying, we talked about these the the minor things that we missed, but also, you know, about forums or or having a quorum here and how many minutes and all. And not that

Usually start in usually bring it in October for discussion. Okay. And then October for discussion, any changes that are wanted implemented, further discussion in November to finalize it and then the vote in January.

We need to make our notes if we if if we see something that we haven't seen in there, but today is that to approve these. And I'd like to make a everybody have a motion to approve them?

Motion to approve the rules of procedure. Second?

Okay. In favor? Aye. Okay. Approved.

So make sure you get your notes down for the next for October so we can make change and we work work with the wording and all. Community engagement. I know Sarah has worked tirelessly trying to find all the, you know, the places where we can be at or advertise our our existence in what we do for the communities. And I know we've got how many places now or how many opportunities, but I agree with Sarah. We can't just throw in we wanna go to all of them because if we don't have people to work it, to be there to talk, we're just we're just giving it to somebody else to do it, and I don't think that's fair to anybody else to to talk why we exist in what we do for them.

Personally, I everyone that I've been to, I I think it's been value added to me as a person, but also to see the reactions of the people, oh, I didn't know that. Oh, wow. You know? And but we can't just have have them all right here in Frederick City. You know? They have to be at you know, in all our our locations. And, like like the doctor was saying, you know, make sure that we're reaching out to the younger people too because, you know, they they should know we're here for that reason. And I don't think there is an age restriction on the the riding of the plane, is there? Do you have to be an adult? Do you have to be 18?

Oh, so so it it is a place that we can still talk because, you know, if there's not an age restriction on filing a complaint as long as it's accurate, you know, then we should they should know that, you know. So anything else, Sarah?

Just with it for community engagement for future events, like, I did send out because I have the information for pride and, you know, before I go and pay for a spot. At this time, I have three people that have I know it's, you know, months out, but I have three people. That's not enough coverage for the entire time and spending all day there. So if we're not getting enough people to volunteer to cover these time slots, then I'm not going to pay for a spot because then if I can't fill that and we can't go, you're not gonna be allowed to go back there. Like the same within the streets and things like that.

So when I get, like, when I've gotten the things for pride or when I get for in the streets or other events, I will be asking for coverage first as much time in advance before I block or pay for a spot. Otherwise, I'm I'm I'm paying and we don't get enough volunteers. You can't close-up early. You can't set up late, and then otherwise, you're not invited back. And that doesn't that's not looking good for your your board either. So please look when I'm sending them out. Another thing

If you can't do four of those, excuse me, but if you can't do four hours, can you give two hours? I mean, so we could

Well, I try to block them off in enough in enough time that there's there's the coverage there may be overlapping so people aren't having to work full day. Whole day. Yeah. Having one person there with fit, that that does not work.

It wears you out. I'll tell you. Yeah.

Things I have been working on to to further supplement community engagement is I have been I have met with some people with advertising. I have met with the NBN, the Frederick Keys, Frederick News Post, Transit, getting quote, you know, getting some quotes on advertising out in the area. So far, I you know, m m v m v a and might be the most affordable for what is in our budget right now. So I have taken that and I have sent it on to the county executive because the m v n, they serve it's all Frederick County, targets all Frederick County residents, sees about 300,000 people a year, residents of Frederick County, new drivers, new people moving into the county, maybe somebody that had their license suspended or something going back in there, you

know,

to get their driver's license back. But it will offer four four thirty second commercials an hour. The average person sits in the DMV forty five to sixty minutes. So they'll see it three or four times and, you know, so that for a year would be most most in, but at least it's getting it's getting the fact that you're a resource out there. So I know we're gonna start small and work bigger, but that's just what I'm working on now. So that is about all I have on the community engagements. And

And if you do see ideas, please just let let Sarah know because I was sitting in the movie theater at the container our warehouse and I saw a commercial from one of the county's agencies. And so we got started on this as, you know, they were doing it, so why can't we? But obviously budgets and everything else. But it was just an idea because it was like, I wonder how many people sit in here for the movie and see these things and pop up and how big the audience is. It's like DMV, how big that audience is, four times an hour, it starts adding up.

How many people we can see and actually touch or get our message to what we are doing and maybe see us as a true contributor to the cause or not. But I think it will help because unless anybody has any other ideas, but please let Sarah and us know so we can make those changes or at least look into it.

So does the Frederick now that the we would have the Frederick keys is actually affiliated with the Orioles now, probably will see more people go into the games, would assume.

We we did have that. I had that discussion with them today about them being back on, that expands their season from instead of June to September, April to September.

But do they have a because I always see when I've gone to games that there's there's information table set up. I don't know if they had a law enforcement evening or they had a a county agency, but we could always have a table at one of them.

And that's something we discussed today. I he like I say, I just met with him this morning. So I haven't gotten any pricing info, but they do have booths to where, you know, if you have people come in, man, the booth or the game, you pay so much for that. So once I have the numbers for that, that's an option too.

Still need people to work.

You still need people.

That would add me to the second piece that, you know, clearly there's two, six of us out of how many people on this board?

11.

So there's five people missing. Mhmm. I know when we did in the streets, you know, we had pretty long times that we were there. Mhmm. We may wanna consider, I don't know what you guys think. At part of our rules and guidance is that they have to participate. To be on the board, you have to participate.

I want to hear so much in

that X amount a year.

That's something that can be looked into for when you're amending. It can be a I mean, can be a request. I'm not quite sure we can say because there's nowhere in the law that says

It can be a

you have to volunteer. It can be request it can be asked, but I I I don't think they're strongly encouraged, but there I don't know if there's really a way to force it. So but you know, baseball games if you're there, it is a shorter period of time and you know, maybe some people like sports more than they wanna go stand in another. Maybe more apt to do it or they go work their booth and then take their family to the rest of their family can go watch a game. I don't it's an option.

Willie Mahone, president of the local NAACP. A couple of things. The I did attend the hearing on December 18 regarding the situation that was raised by the reverend here. I've asked for a copy of the tape of that hearing, and that tape should be forthcoming. I haven't spoken to the sheriff department about the cost, but you may be coming and asking you all to share the cost.

But notwithstanding that, the tape of that hearing is available. A couple other things. The and this was raised as to interaction with the family about what can be done prospectively or what can be done now and prospectively in terms of these kinds of incidents. Sheriff Jenkins met with myself, doctor Shaw, who is the mother of the young child at our office for quite a while. And the sheriff had indicated that what he would do is take a, quote, unquote, hard look at these kinds of situations.

The indication is that he would look as to whether or not there could be some procedural changes in terms of what happens in this situation where you have a child who is confronted by law enforcement personnel. And while I'm talking about that, what happened there is a yearly activity at that church. And the law enforcement agencies generally are aware of that. Now I I'm not able to confirm specifically that that happened in this occasion, but the law enforcement agencies are generally aware of that. There are some other things, but I only have three minutes.

In regards to the hearing itself, we say there's chinks that are being worked out. While you're working out those chinks, due process is being denied. If you look at the regulations, which I've looked at, it speaks of the parent or the claimant, the complainant being in the hearing room or or no, the complainant's counsel being in the hearing room. If the complainant's counsel has a right to be in the hearing room, then the complainant's counsel theoretically has a right to participate in the hearing. As has been pointed out, you have you have two legal advocates there.

Neither one of those leave legal advocates are advocating on behalf of the complainant him or herself. And I looked at the regulation. The regulations talk about the complainant, counsel being in the hearing room, which which raises another issue. We attended the hearing on December 18. It was quite an outpouring of people who were there.

When we got there, we were shepherded not we were shepherded into a conference room, not the actual hearing room. And so doctor Shaw is a member of our organization, NAACP, had made some inquiry to the deputy sheriffs about her being able to be in the hearing room. And he was told he he said, no. She had she didn't have a right to be

in there.

She couldn't be in there. That appears to be a palpable violation of the procedure rules that exist. Now there are two procedure rules. There's one set of procedure rules that come from the administrative office. I forget what you call it. I've done that for fifty years. I forget what you call it. And then the sheriff gets to make his own procedure rules as well. Those rules cannot be inconsistent with the rules that come at the state level. The prior to the hearing, the NAACP made several inquiries as to the procedures that would govern that.

We were never given those procedures. However Three minutes. I became aware subsequent to that that doctor Shaw had been sent a communication saying what the rules are. So there were there was something that had been forwarded to her. She, being a layperson, did not take cognition of that. And so I think it's very important that we make sure that whatever rules that are governing those hearings should be there. Now had we seen those rules prior to the hearing, then we probably could have made some comments. The hearing itself, then again, I encourage you all to listen to it. The hearing itself, we were not allowed to be in the hearing room. We were in a large room.

The acoustics in that room were horrible. You could not hear what was going on. You could not hear what was being said. I could make out some of it because of my background in legal proceedings. But lay people, they were like totally, you know, non plus as to what was going on. I have gathered affidavits from several people who attended those that hearing, and their affidavits are saying exactly what I've I'm telling you, that they could not hear, they could not make out. It is our position that that erodes

Excuse me. You're you're at

the three minute mark.

Yep. Okay. Well, you can with your discretion, you can give me more time.

We've already given five, actually. You have twelve seconds left of five minutes.

I I think you got a good topic, but I'd like if you don't mind, could we see your summary of the of the report so that I

I

What you asked the trial judge for? The trial board. Video. Okay. It'll be in the video. But No.

If you if you would like to send us the video when you receive it and a summary of what you speak on because this is

What I'm asking for at this particular time, think I have some very pertinent points that go through some of the things that arose here, is for three additional minutes. That's what I'm asking for.

We have have given you five and our rules of procedure allow for three and an additional two.

Do think that you've went over the time and I've allowed it and even though I was pointing at three, I understand it, but I I would like to get your points your points in writing so that we can address them. And also take them forward to for us as we go through this walk, crawl, run stage that we can address not only that, but the trial board because if if it it felt like it was unfair, only the way we're gonna get the changes for us to address it in writing. I think that's fair.

I wanna make it clear.

You're you're suggesting that I give you a written submission of some of the concerns

If you

think that there's been some before. Well

Yes. Yeah. But yes.

We would appreciate it.

Thank you very much. I will do that.

I am

available to continue my conversations with members if they are interested after this is over with some other very salient points that I think needs to be made at this particular point in

time,

particularly in regards to those hearings and hearing procedures. Thank you very much.

Thank you. You. Appreciate your time. Alright. I do think there's great points. I think it is a learning stage for us here. It's first trial board. I think we're learn. I think everyone's gonna be different, but if we start addressing the issues now, I think it'll we'll be in better set for the future for any trial boards. But next meeting will be April 3 or April 15. In person here. Anything else that we have that you could think of?

No.

That's That's it. We're all done.

Miss Kendall? No. Thank you. Doctor? Good. Okay. Ma'am? Okay. So I, look for a motion to adjourn.

Motion to adjourn.

Second. I second.

All favor? Aye. This meeting is adjourned.