Development and Zoning Review Committee - Regular Meeting

it at that time. The committee would like to thank you for your attendance at tonight's meeting. Um, can I get a roll call of commission members or committee members, please? Council member Marshall, Council Member Galani, Council Member Alers here. Mayor Gitano and Chair Batty here. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Um, does the Department of Planning have any opening comments?

Yes, Mr. chair and thank you. First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for attending tonight. We do appreciate the extra effort this particular committee requires on a NAS need basis. So, thank you very much and I extend that thanks to Mr. Brown for being here as well. Thank you. In preparation of tonight's discussion, the Department of Planning did provide to you a packet of information, part of which was developed by it and the remainder by the petitioner in this particular instance. The packet of information includes the agenda and bylaws associated with the committee. It also has two different aerial photographs. Those of the site more in a larger scale and then the general area in a smaller scale. The petitioner has provided what I would consider a sketch plan that's on an aerial photograph as well. And that's the primary piece of information you see first in the packet that's been provided. Along with that sketch plan, the petitioner has provided floor plans and architectural drawings of the models that are being proposed or suggested at this location. Finally, the remainder of the packet is the standard information the department provides to the committee each time. It includes the town center regulating plan, the land use map, the use chart that identifies those activities that can be considered in the land use map, and then finally a summary of the design guidelines reflective of the new urbanism standards and other requirements. I just want to make a couple of notes about the property. Mr. chair.

We collectively here at city hall call this the wedge property. It's the property that forms the triangle at at the easternmost edge so to speak of town center. It's um buted by Route 100 on the north, Manchester Road on the south, and then Wildwood Christian Church on the west. It's approximately 12 acres in size and has a portion of the original pavement of Route 66 still located upon it. The plan that's been provided indicates 42 total units. They are duplexes in pairs of two. And from that, Mr. Chair, I'll let the petitioner take it from there. But I would conclude just by saying that this is I believe either the fourth or fifth proposal the development and zoning review committee has considered on this particular site. The first one was for a multiple family development, a pretty robust development in terms of total units and then the subsequent two or three were submitted by the same applicant for a senior care facility and it varied um greatly between what was submitted on the at the first meeting to the last meeting. So this may be either number four or number five.

So questions. I'm sorry. Is this the same applicant that has been before us in the past? This is a completely different one. It's called Blue Onyx. I believe Mr. Valentine will be representing them tonight. And yes, this is a single family developer. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vunich. Um would the developer like to present to us what they have in mind? M Mr. Chair. Um Mr. Vols I tried to send a prompt to Mr. Valentine. Is he going to be present pres presenting? Uh I thought he was going to be on but if he's not

Mr. Valentine who can hear me if if you'll just accept the prompt that I'm about to send you so you can come in and use your camera and microphone. Travis, can you hear me now? Yes, you are in the meeting. Thank you. Excellent. I I I I did see your prompt last time and when I clicked on it, it it it didn't do anything. This time clearly worked. We got there.

Yes. Uh good good evening everybody. Um really just wanted to propose uh our our planned project for the site. Um, as you can see on the screen here and in your packets, uh, it is is certainly a much less dense proposal than than at least what we've understood to be presented before. Um, this is our, uh, villa series. Um, this is our upscale villa series. Um, they are there are three different floor plans shown here uh, laid out as A, B, and C models. So they are all uh a duplex style, right? So that's how we refer to our villas. So one common wall for two units. All of the products um have full foundation basement attached twocar garage and are meant to be in this entire complex is a fee simple uh for sale transaction is not a proposed rental site. So these are are for sale to buyers to home. Uh the proposal as you see it um incorporates uh not only um the the 40 units that are shown, it incorporates um and again very preliminarily some some storm water retention area. Uh we also recognized that there was a route uh 66 path through the project and we are intending to kind of maintain that route and convert it actually into a uh a public trail uh connecting to the from the trail to the north uh through the site down the old route 66 and then connecting to the trail uh on the south side at Manchester Road. Uh there's also another connection further to the east

also connecting the trail to the north to the south. Um and one of the um primary purposes for the area that is is kind of left vacant at the trail area at the the north adjacent to the northern storm basin. um is we intend to have a little pocket park in this area uh that is intended to be a pocket park really with um paying um paying honor to Route 66 and the history associated with it. Uh where we'll have some benches and some signage that discusses the the history of Route 66. Uh and then again some benches and some areas for people that uh would like to relax and and sit there and uh take a load off and read the signs, etc. Uh that's what that intended kind of bacon space out there to the north is is intended for. Um pretty simple and straightforward layout. Um we do want there's you know a creek and a large ravine that kind of yeah bifrocates the property there on the western side. So staying away from you know that area there but also trying to get um some product that kind of overlooks that area as we think it will be um quite pleasurable uh for a homeowner to have that as their as their backyard. Um, I don't know what if any other questions there might be on the layout. Again, it's preliminary at this time, so we don't have um, you know, really any engineering work. We were trying to get conceptually uh, is this something that the city of Wildwood uh, would find appealing and good use of this ground. From our early feedback and conversations, we we we

thought that it would. Um, but we're here tonight to to make sure that we are on the right track. All right. Uh, thank thank you. And is it Mr. Valentine? You can call Mr. Valentine or Steve? Steve. Okay. Mr. Valentine. I feel like I may have I'm in trouble with somebody. So,

I All right. I understand. Steve, thank you so much. Um, I'll start off with a couple questions. Uh so like looking at your drawings, those little squares um like say on 13 and 12 next to um to the east of the detention basin in the trail. It like those boxes under where 13 and 12 are. Is that supposed to be where the driveway is? So I am I'm really trying to see which ones are 13 and 12. Is right. Yeah, right there. Okay, there you go. They're all they all have it. I'm just starting with went to those two.

So, yeah. So, the the boxes are the actually representations of the garage itself and then the driveway would come out connecting to the road from there. Like I said, these are all are attached twocar garage villas. Um, okay. So, that that's what the that that mini subbox represents, so to speak. Gotcha. And then would these be be set far enough back from the street to accommodate a car length on the driveway? Okay.

Yeah. So, so the the design is a twocar garage plus at least 20 feet from the garage face to where the pavement is, but so that you could park two in the uh driveway as well. Okay. Yeah, cuz I I know that the Oh, the mayor is on now. Um, I know he always asks about that and parking is always something of a concern with these projects. The intention to Dave's point, to Mr. V's point, is to have uh on on lot four available parking spots, two in the driveway, two covered and two uncovered.

Okay. sound. And then would there be any um like auxiliary parking lots on here? Um

it was not Yeah, it was not our initial intention um because of the four per uh that we're we're delivering that the intention was to not consume any more ground that we had to uh w with additional pavement. But if if additional parking is is needed, I guess we could look to to find that. Um but generally speaking, uh four per um has been adequate or more than adequate in past past projects.

Okay. Um, and I personally I like the way you've incorporated this the adjacent trail into the neighborhood with the multiple entry and exit points. Um, I will say that. Um, does anyone else on the committee have any questions they'd like to ask? Would there be um street parking or one side or what's the proposal with street parking? So the the street width, right, is is a public width and um certainly could accommodate it. My preference is to never have more than one side street parking. So we would um certainly post it that way.

But yes. Okay. Um yeah. Um the city needs villas, so um it's encouraging to see this. Uh do do you have a prelimin preliminary uh price range? I know there's several models or can you say what you're looking at on the price range for these units? Well, um I I can give some targets, but we uh as as uh we continue to learn more about, you know, some various architectural components that we want to make sure that we incorporate these um our our pricing is a little fluid at this point. Sure. Uh I understand that

we would expect them to transact u between probably a half a million and depending on you know some some of what we've seen in some of these buyers they're they're actually move down buyers from what I'll call you know rather large family homes and so a lot of times they'll come in and really fully appoint these things including finishing the basement. Um, okay.

So, you know, we've we've had some and I've seen some hit, you know, which seems crazy to me on on 16 and 1700 square feet, but they'll get them up to, you know, a million bucks to make sure that they're the way that they want them to be. So, uh, you know, we don't control or we don't try and, you know, limit in any way their ability to finish the space with high-end touches and appointments, but, um, I expect, you know, that that lower number to be in in the half million range and and and I'm sorry, you just said 16 to,700 square feet plus a ba plus a bait a basement in every unit, right?

Plus a basement. There should be slides um uh that that were provided for um the floor plans themselves and they should have the square footages on there. Okay, I'm seeing them now. And look, I thought I saw some with a two twotory option even.

So yeah, so there's there's a right now we don't have a full naming convention right now. They're just, you know, model A, model B, model C. Um, currently, um, so model C, floor plan C, uh, does have what we kind of call like a loft or eagle's nest kind of area. Um, there you go. That's the model C right there. So, if you, you know, if you took the Model C and finished the basement, um, you know, you can get, you can get up over 3,000 square feet relatively easily. So,

Oh, wow. Again, for those that want the space, even though they don't appear, again, because they're kind of a ranch style footprint, uh the basements are spacious and depending on, you know, your uh desire to finish that space, you you can add a decent amount of square footage to the uh to the overall living area. Yep. As someone who has a 1900 square foot ranch, I love my 1900 square foot basement.

Right. Exactly. Right. So, if you finish, 1700 of that, just like that, right, you're at 3600 square feet. So, it's unable space and even leaves you, you know, an area for your mechanicals and maybe a little work room, but uh you can really up that uh living space. Definitely. Um and then Yeah. And then I we're just completely avoiding the creek area it looks like. And so that's why you have the two stub streets basically.

Yeah. We we want to stay out of that ravine. There's obviously, you know, there's some good tree cover through there. Plus you have the creek the you know and it and it's it's higher ground, you know, flowing down to that creek. So the topo through there is not. So there's several reasons to, you know, just stay off of that creek and really maintain it. Um, you know, for those properties along the the western edge, uh, again, it provides a nice front yard viewing area for you, right? You're really not, you know, looking any into neighbors homes, so to speak. Uh, you just got a nice green space. And then same for the rear yard of the of the, you know, the v of the villas just kind of on the other side of the creek. So it's it's good premium area for really almost half of the volume.

Yeah. Um just asking um as it as a not that I am looking to trade down at or and I say trade down house devel it it would I can't I can't afford these at the price point you're talking but um like hypothetically that the western street there is there a reason to have those houses back to the church rather than the creek. I'm just thinking hanging out on my back patio. I think that would be a more aesthetic aesthetic view looking into into the trees than the church parking lot.

I think some of it really is more based on the engineering feasibility, the development feasibility of the ground. Um much more impactful if we reverse it the other way. Okay. To the point that I don't know that it's fully achievable. Gotcha. I I just wanted to ask. So, Fair question and uh in defense of you, our our sales people ask the same things. Okay. Um does anyone else have any questions?

Mr. Dave, I have a question for you. All right, go ahead. In the four units that are north of the retention pond, those units are back in the lot further. So, they would actually have pretty large front yard if if I'm reading that print right.

Yeah. And some of that is because you know that that um that pedestrian trail goes through that stretch and so we're just trying to leave some additional space through there. Yes. it. I mean, you know, you have a little bit of a longer driveway, so it, you know, on the one hand, it cost me a little bit of money and it cost the owner a little bit extra uh back sweat if he has to shovel that driveway, but um and and which leads me into a conversation. We have not fully vetted yet. Um we are contemplating having this um and we're we're leaning towards the the direction being uh a maintained site uh where the HOA will um they'll take care of the you know the lawn care for the whole community as well as um snow removal from driveways and and private walk. Uh got we got to get some part of what impacts that uh is just overall pricing and and efficiencies of scale. um we just want to make sure that we've got something that that is fully viable. But that is I think the intended direction that we would like to go.

Another reason why I wanted to keep those back is because there's a power line that runs through there that's next to old Route 66 and that would give you a little bit more separation. So we tried to move those units back further for that reason. Also, is there a chance to uh bury that power line?

I don't think so. That's a pretty major power line that goes and then it crosses uh Highway 100. Um now, you can't see, but the if you notice that northern road, there's a little bit of a wiggle in it. And the reason that's there is to get around one of the poles that's on the south side of that. So, we we put a little bit of a turn into it. And so, there's really only two poles. You'll see the wires up, but there's really only two poles that are on the property. Okay. U Mayor Garano, thank you. I hope hopefully you can hear me. Yes, out loud and clear.

All right, great. Um, so I uh appreciate the uh you know submission for the development zoning review committee meeting today so we could provide you with feedback. I've got a lot of history with this particular site. Uh going back back in 2015 when I first came on council, we've seen numerous and numerous proposals come for this parcel. Uh but never really seemed to be a good fit for this parcel. Every time we saw something come through, it was some kind of multi-story building there and there were a lot of concerns about the density that was being packed into that multi-story. So, it is a relief to see uh something that we've always repetitively said would be a better alternative for this site, which are villas. And uh I also noticed that you kind of distributed out a little bit the traffic with that uh segment of villas on the western edge of the property having a road that comes in and out just for that uh group there. And then the rest of the neighborhood will have access right there at Old Fairway. So it minimizes uh compared to what we've seen in the past. Uh I would uh say there's a lot of uh I guess frontage maybe or the perimeter of that property that runs along Manchester Road. Uh you'll notice there's there's a lot of um trees. It's kind of uh secluded almost this property. So, I would ask that as you're finalizing your concept plan that you try to preserve some of that. The last thing I think I would ever want to see is that you just kind of clearcut everything down along Manchester Road. Um, where you just kind of see through. Uh, so I'd like an answer on that

tonight to see what you guys have thought of already, if you have regarding that. Um, so again, trying to keep that edge of the property along Manchester Road or at least a good segment of it. What are you going to do to preserve that? The other question I guess I have um is and I don't know if there's a reason uh maybe an engineering reason why we couldn't consider it but you ever consider that road that connects well that road if you follow the mouse where's Travis uh keep going to the right where it ends. What about if there was a driveway that connected there to Manchester Road? So, it's a kind of maybe a right in only type of turn for those people that live there that are coming in Manchester. Um, they could just drive into their neighborhood that way. Would that be a possibility? Something to think about. Uh, so that this way too it's not just having all the cars funneled through at Old Fairway. They can come in that way. also provides a another way in, another way in. Maybe it's just a way in. I I don't think might might be safe to make it a way out. Uh so that's a second thing I'd be curious about. And uh I think that's really so far what I have there. So if you could address those two points, that would be great.

Sure, Mayor. I I think and I'll let I'll let Dave speak as well, but real quick, at least on the second entrance, um that's certainly something we can study and make sure that we could meet, you know, all the the site distance and traffic requirements um you know, in that area. I I and maybe Dave is going to come in and tell me that the the topography doesn't lend itself there. So, again, I I'll I'll defer also to Dave on whether or not it's it's uh real feasible. you you know the towo's crazy there to make that connection. Uh you know I don't want to I don't want to set something up that engineering wise won't won't work but at least in a you know kind of plan view 2D picture um I think it to your point mayor it's at least worth studying and taking a look at. Um and then relative to trees in general um I and I know uh well I know generally around town There are certainly groups of people that think that, you know, taking trees down is what what lots of developers do, and I'm sure that there are, but generally speaking, I have routinely worked with salespeople that want me to preserve as many trees as possible because it helps them sell. Um, so it's almost selfishly that I want to preserve as many trees as I possibly can. uh from that regard. Um if there are and we'll we'll certainly work with the city and make sure we get you know maybe proper landscape folk out here. But even if there is areas that either a out of necessity need to clear or b uh that the tree canopy the root system gets damaged enough that that we think the trees are going to die anyhow. Uh that we make sure we have a robust planting strategy along that Manchester Road stretch. Uh because I agree with

you. I've driven by here many times and um I think that stretch in particular, it would be really nice to to make sure we've got a good uh tree cover. Though I'm also aware that a newly planted tree takes a couple years to, you know, start maturing and and you know, getting some good cover to it. But um I I do think we could certainly one way or another make sure that that stretch is is beautified appropriately. Yeah, I I would say and and I appreciate that. I don't know if you really answered my question specific to that boundary there along Manchester Road, but um I am on the planning and zoning commission. So, if you do come back and don't have that address, well, then we'll send you right back to figure it out. So, we're giving you feedback now. Be back now. But yeah, my thing would be that you we're looking to create a buffer between the road and the the development for a good portion of it because right now it's a very wooded area which is nice. It's pretty. And so I think that's an advantage to your community so that the folks that are moving in and buying in don't feel like they're living on top of a road. um and the people that are on the road that uh that live across from there that they also don't feel um like it's kind of straight through looking into that neighborhood there. Uh, so it's it's kind of making sure that we have a buffer along that perimeter that runs along Manchester Road so that this way um it it it uh I think it aesthetically uh appeals to the people living in there and the people that also live on the other side of the road there because we do have residences that are on the other side and actually maybe that's a good

example. Take a look right across the street. You'll see it's pretty dense with the vegetation, but right behind the vegetation, there are homes there. So, we're looking to create kind of the same thing on the other side of the street there. So, that this way you have uh that buffer there. Um, speaking of that area, but and I'm very familiar with that area. I live right by there. So, if you uh ever want me to show you, I'd be happy to.

All right. Thank you, Mayor. And speaking of that line, the detention basin that you have very near Manchester, would that have water in it all the time or would that only fill when it was wet? No, the plan is for that to be a retention lake. So, that would have water in both of them. All right. Actually, the one on the north, that's kind of the I definitely want to try to make that one wet as well because that can be a really neat area because you come off of that trail that's already up there and the goal would be to keep that old pavement there. Maybe make it nicer, but then have that area where where it it's a like Steve said, a pocket park up there. But both the hope is to have both of them wet.

Okay. Because I think that just look really really nice.

Yeah. Yeah. And and just going going into the trees a little bit. I'm I'm just looking at some of the aerials and looking at the grades. We'll have to look at the grades, but uh from the from the that entrance that's across the street from Old Fairway to the south, definitely that area in there, there's no reason to disturb it. In fact, there's a I think there's a some utilities in there. So So we we we wouldn't disturb that. Um, so going to the south, going to the north, um, I'm just looking at some aerials and there's probably that's probably would be better being replanted some of that, but I think you could get a pretty good buffer there. And I do think you might be able to make that connection that you were talking about. Um, if if that's something that you might be able to do that. It's going to depend on the grades, but I don't as I'm looking at it, I can't see why I couldn't do that. the second connection. Those would be two entrances close by to each other, but if that was a rightin entrance, that might work.

Yeah. And I'll defer maybe to our director of public works, right?

Who knows roads better to provide an opinion if that's a benefit uh or not there. Um because I think it, you know, has to connect nicely with the road there at Manchester. uh so that you know we're also not impacting the traffic that is flowing on Manchester there but if somebody wanted to go in you know maybe there was you know the right lane where you turn right into it or something like that so we could figure that out but yes your observations back to the um the you know the landscaping I guess uh you're exactly right uh when you look to the west of the driveway uh that's primarily a lot of the area that I'm thinking about there.

Yeah. Um and so, uh you know, and yes, if it's to the right of the driveway heading east, well, then you're right. Maybe that's better being replanted. But that main area that is now uh pretty dense is is uh west of the of I guess old fairway all the way down. Yeah. And I I think you can you can work with that and save a lot of that. All right. Um, thanks everyone. Are there any more questions? Mr. Chair, just a couple of quick points. Yes, sir.

Thank you. I'm sure VO's engineering will look at the site distance considerations for that westernmost access point. So, just a reminder. And then on that area on the east end that we talked about potentially doing a third access point when Shnooks Wildwood crossing developed, they had to lower that hill crest to make that westernmost access point work. They lowered it to the minimum amount because it was something no one anticipated and it was during the transition between St. Louis County and the city. So just be cautious there also Dave. Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Vunich, are you saying it's higher on the um north side there? Well, until Schnook's Wildwood crossing lowered that hill crest, the site distance didn't work and it was a critical access point for them. They ultimately spent extra money to lower it, but they didn't lower it to what I would have thought would have been the most appropriate elevation. So, just it's a it's just an area to be cautious with and study probably not just once but twice. Oh. Oh. So,

all right. This all happened before I moved out here, but yes. So you're saying man the new part of Manchester Road is lower than it used to be right there? Yes. They they addressed the Hillrest to at least get the minimum sight distance that everybody felt was acceptable, but public safety, as Mr. Brown will tell you, acceptable generally isn't the best approach.

Yeah. Well, and and you've heard me um kind of complain about old the old fairway, old Manchester intersection before, and if they if something can be done there, roundabout, I don't know. Um it would be appreciated because when you stop, like I've mentioned, if you stop behind the stop bar on Old Fairway, you can't see anything on Manchester. But um that's that's my comment.

Well, Mr. Chair, we got an extra extra dedication from um JH Bar when they were doing the the project the enclaves at Cherry Hills and we got the extra dedication of land area for right away thinking that someday a a roundabout might be the solution there. So I I think we created a problem for Mr. Brown by doing that, but I'll let him tell me.

Well, I would say a roundabout would be a nice thing. Um, I don't know. It might be tough to justify it on the basis of this development alone, but it would certainly help to slow the traffic in that area. And I think like Joe says, there is room to get one constructed there likely without impacting this development negatively in my opinion.

Yeah. Like Yeah. No, I I know what you're saying. I don't I don't know that traffic counts necessitate it, even if we were to put this subdivision in, but it's I I think just the way the trees and the slopes at Old Fairway in Manchester are right now, if you're come driving north on Old Fairway and stop where you're quote supposed to stop, it it's not a safe stopping point. You got to you have to pull across the crosswalk and almost out onto Manchester to really see anything. But that that that's off subject for this new development, I think. Um so, um if if there's no other comments, um I don't know. I I think you have possibly have something here and if you want to move forward with it, we look forward to seeing what you come up with in planning and zoning and city council. Um, is there a motion to adjurnn? Motion by Councilman Marshall. Is there a second?

Cliff will do that. All right. Thank you, Cliff. Um, all those in favor say I. I. I. I any opposed? Any abstain? All right. Thank you everyone. Uh, thank you Dave. Thank you Steve.