Public Services Council Committee - Regular Meeting

I'd ask to be recognized for procedural objection, chair.

Using myself, I plan to do so. I'm gonna give fifteen minutes for each team to present then I will allow the committee fifteen minutes for questioning and then I will allow fifteen minutes for deliberation and conclusion. That's all I have.

Just to clarify, anything that comes out today would then have to go on and be ratified by city council.

And I would ask that that decision be walked on denied if we do come to a decision.

If it's unanimous out of the committee, it can be walked on. If it is not unanimous, it cannot per the city council rules.

Thank you. If I could be recognized briefly. Chair. Oh, thank you. I'm Bryce Cook.

I'm here on behalf of Sharkwave Aquatic team. I'm the chairman of the board for Sharkwave Aquatic. And I certainly appreciate all of y'all's time and attention and being here tonight. However, are two significant procedural objections that I must raise. First, there is a apparent conflict of interest, at least a question raised as to the chairs, the propriety of the chair being involved in this process.

And for that we're seeking recusal which I believe you've already addressed. However, there's also an issue of asymmetric notice of this meeting. Notice was given to one side before the public was given notice, certainly before we were. And under those circumstances, I believe we will need some information and written guidance from the city attorney on the city's position as to each of those. Only for the purpose of making sure the public can have confidence that this process is full, fair, and neutral.

With those questions before us, we well, unfortunately, I have to decline the invitation to debate until we can receive some assurances and safeguards that this process is appropriate and that your constituents, our members, and every member of this community can have full trust and confidence. And with that, I will excuse myself.

So what are your two questions? One about recusal and two about notice of the special called meeting?

I'll provide those concerns in writing.

Okay. Well let me respond. Not in writing. One the chair's already said he will accuse so that issue is addressed. Number two, state law only requires is it two hours? Two hours. Two hours notice of a special called meeting, period. And then there are publication requirements. I believe both sides got way more notice than that. I sent out the notification on Saturday morning. Right. Two hours is what's required by state law. So there is no notice issue for this meeting.

Obviously, this is not the correct forum for you and I to

have a legal debate over what the law says. And

so I will seek written guidance and additional information from the city on this. And with that, we'll excuse ourselves. I assume my objections are overruled.

I I just need you to understand that the city may go forward hearing from the other side.

That's And

if the council committee makes a decision, that's on them because proper notice was given by state law. There is no guidance as to how this will take place because this is an unusual circumstance. We were asked if we would give both sides an opportunity to be heard by the committee and by council, and we tried to facilitate that as quickly as possible because there are no current signed contracts to use our pool, and I know both teams wanna get in the water as quickly as possible and neither team can get in the water until there's a signed contract. So we were trying to facilitate that on behalf of both swim teams to get you in the water quicker.

Certainly our desire is to get in the water quicker. At this point, the entire process and framing of this conversation is so tainted apparently by conflict of interest, violations of law, and obviously we can have a debate in another way

Or today.

As the We're all legality of or We cannot have confidence based on these things that this is a neutral process, not just a meeting. And therefore, we'll stand on our objections. I will seek written guidance from the city attorney's office. We'll

I've given you all the guidance I can give you today, Bryce. I mean, don't know how you who is more neutral than the committee that has not been I don't think anybody else here on this panel has any idea why they're here today other than we sent them last year's contract, this year's proposed contract and said you know we weren't able to reach an agreement so we're letting both sides come and voice their concerns to you. Everyone else on this committee is impartial and Mr. Gibson has agreed to recuse so

there

is no other format for this.

All I can tell you is I will be happy to provide you the citations to law so you can review them and not give an off the cuff legal opinion and commit to it.

Do you have those with you?

I will send you a letter in writing first thing in the morning. And I would expect as the city attorney, you would respond appropriately in writing and advise as to what the city's position is on this. That's your prerogative. But until those issues are resolved, which I do not believe they are, this is not the appropriate forum to address the substantive issue until the procedural concerns are resolved. So with that, I'll excuse myself. Thank you all.

So what's the desire of the committee? Do you wanna appoint somebody to take your place?

Joe, do you mind running this meeting?

I don't mind at all.

So what's the desire of the committee? Do you wanna hear from assuming Jet's willing to speak, Do you wanna hear from Jet, or do you want to wait? My position is that proper legal notice was given for a special called meeting. More than proper legal notice was given for a special called meeting. We tried to facilitate it quickly in order to accommodate the swim teams getting in the water as quickly as possible because we don't have signed contracts at this point with them. But it's up to you if you want to postpone and, you know, wait for

When does swim practice in the morning start?

Like, when It should have started rolls out. Last weekend. This week. Right. I mean it's ongoing for Right.

Okay.

Y'all have to if you wanna if you want this on, yeah.

What's the desire of the committee? Y'all wanna continue?

I'd just say I support the city attorney's position. I mean in my nine years we've had special called meetings with a lot less notice. I'm not gonna say it's frequent, but I mean, the city clerk went out of her way to, you know, send messages on Saturday morning. So this is a somewhat urgent issue.

So I believe you can hear from mister Stearns as to when he tried to notify as many contacts as he had in his phone from both teams. I don't know if that was Monday or if that was over the weekend. Sunday. Okay. Sunday would be would be his response.

So I mean, beyond that I mean, what what the point of this was is that we met we have met extensively with both Each team? Yes. We being not mister Gibson. We being myself, Brian Richardson, and Jim Stearns, and went over what we were proposing as far as a change from last year. Just I know you received all of the contracts, but just to give you sort of an update, last year, the lanes were split five and five.

I think that and Jim might can speak to this better because obviously I wasn't there, but I think there were constant complaints at the pool about uneven usage of the pool and perhaps some safety issues, which the other side obviously disputes that it's a safety issue, but some safety issues with having so many kids in the lanes versus a smaller team having less kids in the lanes, and we tried, to come up with a way that it would be the most fair. I don't think either side likes the way we came up with to be honest. So we can be accused of of playing favorites in that, but I think that, during one of our initial meetings without either swim team present, mister Richardson said, well, could we look at last year's AAU USA numbers? And so we try because that way nobody nobody knew we would be looking at those this year, so they wouldn't have tried to increase those in any way. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for and not that I'm accusing anyone of anything, but there would be no way for either side to accuse the other of we ever got any numbers from USA, Jim, but we did get AAU, or do I have that backwards?

Backwards?

You have it backwards. We

have USAA. We have USAA and not AAU.

Just checks the AAU rep again. He still has the double numbers.

Right. And so based upon what we got from USA, it came down to maybe basically sixtyforty. And so our thought process was six lanes for Jet, four lanes for, Shark or SWAT, I guess is what they call themselves, and then my discussion was well you can't split the cost $50.50 if you're not splitting the lanes $50.50. So we came up with a formula for how to calculate a per lane usage, and that's how we drafted the contract that we presented to both teams. Obviously, neither team is happy with that contract.

I think if I if if I'm clear on the positions, I think, obviously, SWAT doesn't wanna lose a lane, and Jet believes that their numbers would reflect that they need seven and three is is where we left it. And we could not get to a meeting of the months on that. So that's how we ended up here today to let them each voice their position to you guys and let you as a committee who is not affiliated in any way that I know of with either one, listen to it and decide what you thought was most fair. The allegation was made that Gibson was biased and had a, honestly, a bigger role in this than he did. Did he bring it to our attention?

Did he initiate the calling of the meeting? Yes. And I'll let him speak as a just a citizen if he wants to do that here in a second, about that because his daughter was on one of the swim teams, but I can honestly say that he did not he wasn't the one saying, well, let's use these numbers or and and neither side is happy with how we how we picked the lane split completely. So I don't know. That's their allegation is that it was an unfair fight from the beginning because Chris Gibson was involved and his daughter was on the swim

team. That's where we are. Do we want somebody, the Jazz to present

That's up to the committee.

Approach the podium, present their side.

Is that your

We want to proceed?

Yes.

Yes. And I think the agenda that Mr. Gibson laid out was each team present their fifteen minutes, they have up to fifteen minutes, then we can ask questions and then deliberations. At which point does the public get to ask questions that someone that's not affiliated with each team would

that be?

I would think so. If there's someone here that wants to ask a question, I would think we have time to allow that.

At this point, we'll let the Jets present their case and we'll go from there. Alright, thank you. Please state your name and address for the record please.

My name is Tim Bird. I'm the ex official, ex president of the Jets Aquatic Club. Thank you guys for having us tonight and facilitating this meeting. Know it's short notice as well and we are anxious to get into the pool. I do wanna clarify a few things that have already been said and been brought up already is the issue with trying to get AU and USA numbers.

The USA numbers you guys acquired back on December 31, as you're talking to USA Swim, the president of USA Swim was a good attempt to try to find something for this upcoming year to designate lanes. In all fairness, it was a great attempt. The problem with that number then is that they don't change their roster out from changes that take place during the year to after the first of the year. So lots of swimmers that are on our team have been on our team, but they're showing on the other team's roster. If you want an accurate number today, that number is 58 USA swimmers for Jets, 20 for Shark Wave Aquatic Club.

Three times as many. AAU side of it, currently active registered swimmers paying dues, active swimmers for the Jets right now are 155. So with that, we're asking for seven lanes for regular hours and then when the city lessons come on board, it's dropped down to five lanes. We think that's a fair number and I'll get to that in just a second. So I just want to kind of go through a few things.

Standing right here about two years ago, I was approached by the mayor, several city council members that are not necessarily here tonight, they say hey, we're building a huge facility. We want you guys to build a team worthy of that facility. So what did we do? We had 38 swimmers. In the last two years, we have now grown to 155 swimmers. We took on the challenge. That's what we did. You guys asked us to do it. We did it. So once we've got that point, that's what we're asking for the lanes because we feel like we've put the work in to do that.

I want to explain to you why the lanes were important because all you guys like me, I was a high school coach in the public school system. I have a coaching degree. I did not understand swimming completely. I didn't understand why number of kids per lane was that big of a deal until I saw it firsthand and then I understood. It's not like baseball, the big field or football, a huge field.

What happens to you is you start putting swimmer into a lane to swim down the right side, hit the wall, turn around and swim back the other side. So you have a concert that's called circle swimming. So you imagine like NASCAR, you start adding numbers to that. Start adding cars side by side end to end. The closer they get when one of them has a bump, takes a wrong breath, takes in water, hits the lane rope, they all boom boom, they all crash.

Your incident for getting injured or having an accident goes up with the number of swimmers per lane. It's just common sense. There is no guideline from USA saying how many swimmers you can put in the lane because you can do different activities in those lanes but common sense will say if you're swimming in circle swimming which is how they build endurance, how they work on their strokes, then that's what they do. The more swimmers per lane, the more incident for possibility of an accident. That's why a number of lanes are very important.

I wanted to kind of clarify that as a reason why. The numbers were built honestly by boots on the ground. We've actually put out over 10,000 flyers to schools from Greene County, down to, I mean, to Truman, Harrisburg, Warner Beds, all schools divided up, flyers per teacher given to each school out there on the ground trying to build a program for this incredible and I've been all over the country, my daughter swims all over the country and this is one of the nicest facilities I've ever seen. It rivals the best of the best out there. For us to have the ability to be able to fill that thing up with teams from other states, you've got to develop a competitive swim team and you've got to have lots of numbers.

That's what we've been doing. We were charged with that task in the city. We put the time and effort in and we've done it through social media, through guidelines, giving stuff to schools, whatever it took to get it done, we grew the numbers. And that's where we're at today. I'm not a courtroom attorney so I don't have all the procedure stuff down.

We also hold, we actually held in the last two years the largest and only USA swim meet. USA being the top elite swimming, AU being a little bit lower level, more beginner swimmers than that. First, Deacon Memorial meet two, three years ago, this will third year coming up, there were 200 swimmers from four states at The USA level, spent three days here and all other restaurants benefited from it, hijinks and all the rest benefit from those people being in town. And our goal is to do more and more and more those to build up to have the facility we're going to have, you're gonna have USA swim meets with people from all over the country zones, sectionals, state meets, those are all USA events that we're trying to work toward have a team to be able to compete at that level. And we have the numbers.

The retention rate per USA swimming, straight retention of swimmers in the club in the state of Arkansas, there's 14 teams. The top number one retention swim team in Arkansas was the Jets at 82%. The lowest number 14 is SWAT with 22%. Retention is a big thing that comes to building a program and making it bigger. Bigger.

You've to keep the guys online, on task and building the numbers. The Jets in the last five years have produced 100% swim scholarships for any graduating swimmer. The Jets, if they've chosen swim or not, they can offer scholarships to swim worth over $1,000,000 across the board. It's a tremendous program. One of the swimmers this year was got a West Point Academy nomination or bid.

Going to the Naval Academy now. It's an incredible program. Our leadership, our head coach at the Division I swim coach that's coming in to take over the Jets program who worked in a large swim program in Benton, Arkansas. He knows how to handle a big team and that's why we brought him in for. We made a change just because we knew the number was so big we needed a legitimate coach that could come in at that level to build the team where it needs to be.

So with that all being said about the program, let's get to the numbers real quick. To give you an idea I have made this more simple so you can understand the lane numbers because we have overlapping numbers. We have kids that swim an hour and a half, kids that swim an hour and fifteen minutes, kids that two hours. So the numbers I'm going to give you are the bottom numbers that we're going to have, and probably the maximum number for the SWAT team to have. I feel like that's a fair, that's a fair shape from our part to do that.

If you do a fiftyfifty split like last year, we're estimating the numbers that we can see online to where we can get our numbers from this one has approximately 50 swimmers. And that's between here, Mountain Home, Pocahontas, wherever not just swimming in Jonesboro, they're different places. 50 swimmer is five lanes for three hours in the morning, seven to eight, eight to nine, nine to ten gives them 3.3 swimmers per lane. The jets I use a lower number here, I'll drop it down 20. At 138 swimmers, with five lanes, we have 9.2 swimmers per lane.

Three times as much. Three times the more chance to have an injury or have an accident. On a seven three split with SWAT having 50 swimmers, they have 5.5 swimmers per lane. The Jets would have 6.6 with seven lanes still more, but more fair. That's a fair number. This passed out even something else. It's got some even beyond that on their own website. They have listed pools they swim in, Pocahontas, Trim Jim, and a city pool. I'll call trim Jim. Swat gets seventeen hours, four lanes per week over there to swim in four lanes seventeen hours per week.

If you factor in the city lanes with three lanes, and their ability to swim a SWAT, which they've been doing since they since the onset, that gives them 2.3 swimmers per lane. That's it. If they use the Pocahontas numbers, I'll call them the day two as well to verify. They get ten hours, three lanes. They use also use the Pocahontas facility. They're down to almost one swimmer per lane. We're still at 9.2. We have two lanes for two hours at Saint Bernard's that they're gracious they even let us have that to carry that to summer just for an emergency. That's not even a carryover. Virtually nothing.

I've got no malice toward the SWAT team and then building a program and I hope one day we have two gigantic programs here in Jonesboro. Think it'd be great for the competition. I like the rivalry. Me being a head coach before, I get that and I truly do. There's no malice toward them. And someday they might be there where we are right now, but they're not there right now. They do not have the numbers to fill those lanes like we do. And there will be, if we're crammed into 16 kids per lane, 17 kids per lane, there are gonna be injuries. I don't care the best swim coach in planet cannot avoid that. You cannot have that many kids in a lane to be safe.

I'm asking you guys today to choose safety, to choose common sense, to divide the lanes up according to what they should be divided up to and its size. I think we've earned the lanes, we put the work in numbers and we've earned the lanes. Thank you guys for your time.

Thank you. Does the committee have any questions for the Jets?

Do. Doctor. Coleman? Didn't get your name. I'm sorry,

didn't remember your name. Can you go back to the podium please, sir?

Bird.

Tim, okay great. Tim, that's

Jim, I'm Tim. Close enough.

Need to hear him fast. Lots

of Jims in the room.

I have no dog in this fight at

all. So

I'm just asking straight up. You were talking numbers and the numbers are impressive. But when you talk about SWAT's numbers, are they valid? I mean how are you validating their numbers? Is it legitimate? Are you

validating No, no, that's a fair question because all we can do right now is verify verify what we have. You can go online and verify each one of those numbers. Looking on just going by Facebook, practices, swim meet attendance, state meets, the numbers they're bringing there four or five swimmers for meets. That's no less we can see because we can't actually get into their business other than USA where we have 58 and they have 20 that was given to me today by The USA President of Arkansas Swimming. So we're three times the number to USA.

I got to figure we're three times the number at AU as well. I think we're even more to be honest with you on the AU side. To give you an example, the last two weeks if you go to our site you will see we have over 60 new swimmers that just signed up in the last two three weeks for SummerSwim. They have five. That's verifiable on their site.

Doctor. Coleman can I ask a follow-up question on that? I hate to interrupt you but are those this year's numbers or last year's numbers?

That's current numbers.

Okay, can you get those numbers for last year that we cannot get?

See here's the thing, No, have to say questions you guys fair question. Because we try to get those numbers as well for us to have those. Because they don't don't take a snapshot of that window. And they update their stuff at the first of the year. So people that change over during throughout that year to whatever clubs, it doesn't get reset until after the first of the year.

Well, I understand that you may not like last year's numbers. I'm asking if you No, can get

us think last

year's

think my last year's are perfect.

Here's my

You just know but right now

Here's my issue sir. Some of that's like I need a number that's like published somewhere.

We have that for our numbers.

I know, but in our position, or at least in my position, I'll only speak for myself, I don't need speculation. I need numbers that we can say okay these are independently, these are verified.

That's what we were trying to do.

And verify.

And I understand that that's not perfect for right now conditions but what are last year's numbers that we can see, I mean I

That's the question. We could only get the one set. We haven't been able to get them from the other group. So riddle me this, let try to go at it from a different way. I assume that both swim teams would have insurance coverage for Is their that through one of those organizations? Do you have your own insurance Through both. Okay, so can you get a do students or participants have to sign a waiver? Does each parent have to sign a waiver to sign their child up to swim?

They they do have waivers. Do sign for photographs.

Do you keep a copy of that?

I I have to check for you. I don't have an I don't have it well.

Because could we

get last year's don't

have waivers?

I know we had those from year or not. I'll have to find out. I get where you're coming from. You want to verify one number.

I verify the number from both sides.

My thing is this, right now the pool is getting ready to open and right now is when you have this number that we can verify every swimmer we have through current USA and AU. If they would have stayed, they could have stayed with their numbers. I can't I can't do that. I understand your point too as well. But that their number is hard to make the decision. When you get a number, however you can get a number we've tried as well, AAU doesn't do snapshots either of that time frame. All we can do is right now. That's all I can give you is the numbers right now.

So just for counsel, when we wrote the contract we did not put in 6473. We just said we would base it on the numbers from last year from those two organizations. We've tried to brainstorm other ways to get valid numbers. I suppose one of the things that we and Brian I hate to give Brian a good idea, but it might have been Brian's idea to, that the city require a waiver from every student that is going to be practicing at our pool, not that swims with them somewhere else, we don't care about that, but that is going to be practicing in our pool and once we had those signed waivers, maybe we determine lanes, I mean it's just a thought. We're just trying to come up with a fair way to pick the lanes.

Yeah.

Either that or I mean, I'm you're not gonna like me for this at all. But my position other than that is sign what you signed last year and let's move forward, and it's one year and then you have the wrap. And I know that's not can what you wanna

say that

one more time, didn't hear

that correctly. Sign the contract we did last year and know move forward. And I know that's not what you want but I don't have a way to resolve, we try.

Sure, there's a very easy way to resolve it.

I understand.

All you gotta do is have them get their AU numbers right now from today, today's date. They can call, AU will give them their numbers. They can have a snapshot of today. They can get USA numbers, which I got you guys today. The only number we're missing is their AAU numbers which they could get today. All you could do is make a phone call say I need your AAU numbers pull that pull that right now from team unify, give me your numbers. You could have that information tonight.

The only fair way I know to do this is by a verified number of swimmers for each team.

Question is where to get that?

And it's just a question of

That's where we were.

Where do we get that?

Mr. Chairman, would just say, again, no dog in the fight. I probably couldn't personally swim to save my life. My wife's a well known swimmer. My daughter swims. She's two years old. She's not on either team. So personally, I have zero dog in the fight at all. Maybe I only know one or two people in the room, and I'm not influenced by that either, of course. But I will say that having been in and around government for a long time, there's a lot of times I don't like the process. I don't particularly like having to run for office. Mean, we all just kind of wish we were up here forever and didn't have to run for office. So there's a lot of processes we don't like. But there had to be a process for today. And there was a process for today.

And I feel like we're asking you a lot of unfair questions because we don't have anybody else to ask of. So I understand that. But I don't know. It's hard to make decision when somebody is not I I feel this way sometimes if we have a rezoning or if we have alcohol permit or whatever when we have questions and they're not here to answer it or refuse to be part of the process because they don't like the process. And I'll say, in my opinion, what I know of everybody setting up here, nobody else has a dog in this hunt.

And I trust Chairman Gibson's fairness. I'll say for me, I mean, didn't lobby me or send me any secret information. You know, no communication with Chris Gibson about this other than, hey, we're gonna have a special meeting on so and so date at so and so time, you make it? So I don't think Chris Gibson influences committee in any way. Those are my comments, Chairman.

Let me do one thing,

Doctor. Coleman will have one more question, I think. Go ahead Doctor. Coleman.

So to also reiterate, a colleague Mr. Gibson, he literally just called me while I was at work and said hey I need you to come to meeting. So I was like, Okay. And that was the conversation. But is there and I'm just getting this from my information so that I can decide whatever. And as a coach, I'm assuming you coach swimming. No. Oh you don't? Other parents.

I would use a coaching certification. I have coached swimming, yes.

Out of

the high school basketball coach.

So I'm gonna ask this as a coach. Absolutely. Is there a competitive advantage by having, and I understand the safety part, explained that well, but is there some kind of competitive advantage by having more lanes versus less lanes because we're talking numbers right now?

Yes, because you have kids that are starting out, say 20 kids that are senior level kids, which is our top level, some of the best swimmers in the nation. Here's what you have. Even in those swimmers, you have variations of ability. So they're not all equal. So you had to kind of combine the ones that are all close in times together to have an equal. If you get somebody too fast, they're running over people. Somebody too slow, they're getting run over by somebody else. So there's where the competitive side comes in. Yes, you got to have those lanes, enough to divide them up so they can be in a similar time period. A very to me, there's a very simple solution to all of this.

You amend the contract to say, we want to just do rosters right now. Forget last year, this is the current rosters. These are what the numbers are right now. We're getting ready to jump in the pool in a couple of weeks. I would say amend the contract to say provide the rosters as of today's date for both of them and you can add to have those tomorrow.

On the jet side though, we just pulled it up just in the AAU side of it. It's 158. On USA we have 58. We know SWAT has 20. The only number we don't have is their AAU number which they could have tomorrow. So my thing is why not amend the contract to say use today's date, pull numbers from both of them and you have an accurate number going forward with what you can use in the pool.

We have, I think we need to get some public comment now. Is there anybody from the public that wants to make a comment? And I'll say in my almost nine and a half years on the council, this is the first time we've ever been involved in something like this. So we are kinda lying by the seat of our pants here. Please say your name and address for

the record, Jim McCarroll, 909 Pinecrest Road. So I'm listening, I don't have a dog in the fight either other than I listen a lot and I look at trends and things that go on. What's con number one, I don't know why we can't figure out two different dates for these people to swim. That may be an option, may not be an option. I'm not a 100% sure why.

Neither one of them will agree to that.

Two, this is a big worry that I have, and that is this is like revolution all over again in some aspects, guys. I mean, again, I don't I mean, I've got friends that are on the jets, and I got friends that are on the other one. And and I just want you guys to be real careful here that we don't open up another situation. I think these guys will tell you, you know, they they switch coach back and forth. They switch kids back and forth.

They recruit back and forth. You know, they had problems and and when they had problems, people went over to the other one. And when they had problems, people went back and forth. You know, that that happens all the time. AU, I've been involved in AU, their numbers today probably won't reflect the same numbers in June. That's the way AU works. The 100% will not reflect. But, you know, what's really what's concerning is is what the the gentleman here who I'm a 100 I I don't know him, but I'm I'm sure he's cares about kids. That's the biggest thing is I think all these people care about kids. So you guys got a pretty huge responsibility here.

But what's concerning is that the mayor says to this gentleman, develop a team that's worthy of the ridge. What does that say to the other team? You know, we we guys just have to be careful creating the same situation that we had with revolution where revolution got fields when nobody else did. Then other organizations can't build theirs because they don't, you know, have fields or lanes or whatever. This is a tough situation and and like I have dear friends on both.

You know, but you guys have to be careful and I don't know why they won't agree on two different dates or whatever. But, you know, it's kinda like to to your guys' points over here. You you give them the dates then. They they either abide by them or they don't, you know. I mean, it is what it is. Now, the biggest thing is obviously kid safety, and that should be first and foremost, number one. But until you know legitimately what that is, I don't know how you can make a decision. I think that that should should pretty much be your guys' only decision is what's best for the kids and the safety of the kids. The rest of it is

And mister Terrell, to to respond to that, I tried to not listen to either coach and do like my own research on what's recommended as like a safe, you know, how many kids can you have in a lane? And and unfortunately, the AIU and USA won't tell you that. I mean, Google will tell you probably it's safest, but you know, Google will tell you all kinds of things. But it says, you know, four to five kids in a lane is probably the safest, but AAU and USA will say that has to be a coaching decision because like he was saying and I think if Will were still here, I think he said similar that it depends on the level that your swimmer is at, how many of them you can safely put in a lane. You obviously can't put what I think they call minnows in with your advanced swimmers or there's gonna be a safety issue, but you might can put more advanced swimmers in a lane or maybe I may have said that backwards more minnows in a lane than advanced swimmers but I think that unfortunately there's no like neutral guidance out there for us to say okay we're gonna say this many kids will be in a lane period Based on the research we've done.

And what's gonna happen if one of their coaches get mad, their main coaches, and they leave and go over to SWAT and take 40 swimmers? Right. And you guys got a contract where now it's flip flopped completely. And trust me, it happened and it has happened. So I I'd be real careful on how you do it.

Number one, a year contract when the numbers are gonna switch because parents get mad, kids get mad and coaches get mad because it's happened with these guys. It has happened back and forth with these guys and the numbers are constantly going to change. I guarantee you, I'll make a bet with anybody, June 1, the numbers will be different for each team than they are today. So you you really need to to make sure that this is this is number one, it gives each team the ability to perform one. Two, there is no holdback for each team to excel and become the best version of themselves.

You know, we don't we don't need, you know, one team getting all lanes and no and the other team not getting any. But at the end of the day, I mean, you know, it is only about the kid's safety. And What everybody

having would you base it on?

Not to be put on the spot, but we're all

on

spot here. I

would you guys

you guys are the I would say one does it on one day, one does it on the other. I mean

That's not swimming. That's not how swimming works.

I I mean, I I I completely understand. But

I've got some nephews that swim in Little Rock, they're they're hardcore.

They are hardcore.

They're hardcore.

I've got we've got

They're impressive.

We've got friends that go to Perrigoel because they don't want any mess of the Jonesboro

I

stuff will that's going say that under one of the things that we did do and to accommodate and not take any lanes away from anybody in the morning is we moved our swim lessons that we normally do to the other pool for the mornings. So the only swim lesson we have that's going to take away their lanes is in the afternoon four days a week for an hour. That also became a point of contention because then they go down a lane to like well, we were proposing six and four so they you know, that became a point of contention is losing a lane.

I don't think you're gonna get a a decision that doesn't have contention in it.

Correct.

And It just has to be the fairest thing with everything in play.

And I think You

know, who may be there in June, who may not be there

in June. I think from the city's perspective, number one, no offense to anyone who is on a swim team, but these are city pools. So our first priority has to be open swim for kids of Jonesboro, day cares and schools being able to bring their kids to the pools during the day in the summer, swim lessons for kids that can't, for whatever reason, participate in a swim team. And some of those end up on a swim team, so I think that feeds both programs, but swim lessons for young kids that we can offer at our city pools. I mean those have to be our top priorities obviously as a city.

Totally agree.

And beyond that we're just trying to do the best we can do to make it fair until there are more things available at the rack.

I'm gonna Maybe

you take month to month numbers and

Well, I was gonna say, we were trying to get away from refereeing this all year because that's what's kind of been happening. And if I look at all the parks department shaking their head, yes. Refereeing it every day or every month or all, that has been a nightmare last year, I think, is what led us to this to this point. So, I'm gonna throw this out, Jim, and you might wanna come up and speak to it. And what if we did the numbers today or tomorrow, give them plenty of notice to get us their numbers tomorrow, and then I set up the contract where it says numbers on what is tomorrow?

May 6? May 6. Numbers on June 6. Numbers on, I don't know when they would change again, August 6. And our lanes, I mean, contract stays the same. It's, you know, however much per lane.

I'm big math person, the math doesn't lie, so just do the math and the math's the math.

And I mean, well you would think it would be that simple but $2,000 a lane is also in dispute and we tried to base that on heating costs instead of maybe we go back to a lane usage fee, and then you pay your half of the heating cost when you're in the pool. Don't know. Jim looking at me like his mind is going, you wanna come out and speak to any of that and how big a problem that would be? No. I'm looking at Jim Stearns and he's trying not to get out of his chair. I'm just trying I mean, I know this is a discussion meeting, so we're kinda brainstorming here. And you can tell me I'm crazy if that's not a fair statement.

I'm joking. I'm glad to speak

I'm just trying.

By the pools.

You know, again, sent you guys some update kind of the things we've kind of looked at this year. I mean, we really, again, you hit the topic. We want to be able to offer some lessons, daycare opportunities, and public school opportunities to anybody that wants to participate. And that's going be first and foremost in the community. And that's kind of our responsibility in Parks and Rec to make sure that everybody that wants an opportunity to come and participate in water sports gets an opportunity.

On that same line, so is the swim team. Because their ability to swim and train and compete are directly related to the amount of time they get to be in the water, as we all know that, that have pursued those type of goals. And so we looked at a lot of different ways to figure out how to charge the pool. And there's no right, there's no wrong, and there's certainly not an easy way. We tried to look at how we could help by moving the morning swim lessons to the evening at one pool so that we could free up more swim team time.

And then we offer the lessons at the Parker Park Pool during that time. So we're still offering as maximum number of lessons that we have. So that was one opportunity that we had to look at to try to make it to work. And I don't know the answer. Like I said, I've been reaching out to the AU guy the whole time since this meeting is here. And he finally just gave me the national number who obviously they closed at five. And so so I can't I I can't I don't have access to AU numbers. And the AU rep for the South does not have access to those numbers. Apparently, he's locked out of that system. What we try to do is try to make a way to make it as fair as possible based on what numbers that we could get.

And right now, those were the 2025 USA numbers, which obviously have already changed because we're in 2026. I don't know if there's a fair answer. I'm certainly out entertained any questions that you may have on things.

My recommendation is we see if we can get updated numbers that we can verify from a website, not just from someone texting them to us and you base allocation upon that number.

Do you want to do that once or do we want to do

I mean that

I was thinking, I guess that is a month. I'm sorry y'all, I've been sick and y'all are lucky I'm here. Steroids are a great thing, that's what got me here. I guess May to June is a month, isn't it?

Do it now, like tomorrow and

Do it again July 1 or something. July 1 and then maybe September 1 are the ones that still want

to use the pull?

I recommend you do the end of the month and that's the first of the month.

Because that's when they're posted as of then, okay, June 30, August 31.

I can redraft the contract to say

that So April 30, can we get the numbers as of April 30, you think?

We can't seem to get any numbers. So is there a way

numbers today.

Well, let me ask you this question. Is and you might need to come to the podium. Is there a way that you can make the AAU guy give Jim the numbers directly? As opposed to us having to get them from each team?

I can only get them pulled from our Sergeant Jim. I can only get those pulled from our team because we can see those

I understand. Is there a way to can reach out to

Eric Vogin and attempt to do that, but I'm sure you've already tried to get that through Eric too as well. I

just didn't know if it came from you and SWAT if they would be more likely to cooperate with us and get us those

numbers Well, I straight can actually pull their numbers off that SWAT.

I know they can.

But I wish I could. I would do that for you. If they prove my point, even more so, if I could do that for you guys, I would do that.

Is there a print off that we can, that's certified or looks that you can't create on your, with chat GPT that will show us that your numbers are,

what can they say they USA and AAU, we can print that for you tomorrow all for our stuff. I mean from their site, not from our jets.

And it'll look. Yeah. Well, mean from somebody who knows what they're certifying. I mean the notary is not really gonna.

You look at our website

Right. There, it's coming off

of the AAU website, and he can certify the

threat out from that website.

Would think. I mean, I could get something like this.

Oh, okay. To repeat what he said, because he's not at the microphone, and the people doing these minutes later are gonna hate guts. We'll just come say it again. What did say to me? I had I'm sick. I can't repeat that.

You gotta state your name and address for the record too.

Alright. My name is Jim Rose. I live in Blytheville, 1712 Country Club Road. We can assume I can go to Notary Republic. Use the website, show the numbers, print off, and and they would certify that.

Notary won't work because a notary is just certifying your signature. They're not certifying the numbers on a form.

Okay.

So I just didn't know if there's a way to certify them on their website or to get no, them what's in

the terms their website. Okay. There's no way to go back and get a point in time number that I found out backwards. So we can only work at the current time or you tell me a date in the future and we can lock in that time.

So maybe that's why we've been unsuccessful in getting numbers

And from my Eric in general is not very helpful. So sorry. Had

to I mean, you say just put that on the record. I did not.

But it is. I mean, there's AAU is a big deal, and there's a lot going on with AAU, much more so than USA Swim. And so it is a very challenging position for him to be in all the time to answer everyone's questions.

What's the desire of the

Madam City Attorney, are you just going to weigh AAU and USA evenly, just combine the two numbers? Or how are you thinking about that on the division? Whatever y'all telling me to do.

Well, the USA numbers would include have swimmers who are

They do both.

They do both. Most of them do do both. All of our USA swimmers are, in fact AAU certified.

Do you think I mean, I can't ask you to tell us for SWAT, but you think they would give us a similar answer when we

I ask think so because you have to swim as you become an AAU certified club or a USA certified club, you have to have insurance, and you get that from those two organizations. We get it through AAU. So we require all of our swimmers to be AAU certified to make sure that we're anything that happens on deck, we have the insurance to cover that. We don't require everyone to be USA certified because that tends to be the older, more senior swimmers and it costs like $100 and the AU costs $25 we make

The MAUs are more accurate.

And are we kind of back where we started, what you said about what Brian said? I mean, if the swimmers are a mountain home or Pocahontas not swimming in our pool and we're counting them or whatever, should we have a city waiver?

That Well, IAU give us the address?

I was just looking. Someone asked me that just a minute ago. The the list that I have on my iPad now does not show a list. I can go back and check to see if it shows in there somewhere. But the list I just pulled up to me, like, say, two minutes.

Because I mean, think that's a valid question. I think both swim teams have swimmers that would be in AAU that aren't swimming here in Jonesboro that are part of your teams that swim because both of you have programs in other cities. Correct?

Well, we have a couple of swimmers in other cities who swim with us for some of the meets. We have two swimmers at Mountain Home which swim with us for USA meets because Mountain Home does not have a USA team. They do not practice with us. And we have a young lady who was with the Jets previously and they moved to Mississippi Olive Branch. Branch and she stayed with the Jets and swam with me with us, but she's not going to do so this year, but she would show on her list. So we would have three swimmers on our list who, in fact, practice every day at another location. And I would assume SWAT would have, at least because they have Pocahontas, I would assume they would have five or six swimmers, maybe seven that

But you don't have concerns that those are going to show up on their AAT?

I'm sure they will show up on their list. But to tell you the truth, I mean, that's a minor issue for us.

I

mean, we're looking at 158 swimmers, and I'm thinking SWAT maybe has 50. And so if six of those should be taken off, to us, it's not that big a deal. I mean, we're looking at 160, and they're looking at 50. So we would not challenge that.

You tell them, let me get a pen.

Do we need a motion to like or do we

need a mean this is just

a You just need direction?

So what you're asking is that we amend the contract. Contract what to use AAU numbers as of what is today? So as of, well but they're gonna

But I guess if we had to get a number now it would be like the most recent number.

May 7. The most recent number and then? And June 30.

August 31.

Would there be a reason to look at them after that, do you think?

No. Lane

usage will be assigned based on those percentages.

Then how will you adjust the billing to them accordingly?

Jim come back up. So what we had attempted to do was come up with a flat lane rate based upon what our heating expenses were. Ask me to do math, it was a little bit convoluted for last year. We didn't even care if we lose a little money. We just don't want to lose a lot of money because I think we can all assume heating costs may go up this year based on everything else going up this year.

But what we were trying to do is make that fair. There was a concern from SWAT and maybe a valid concern. I don't know that we explain your numbers first. Explain your numbers first and then we'll talk about what their concern was. Even though they're not here, I think it's valid for you all to hear what their concern was.

So what we did is the SWAT last year chose to swim through October. So we took the January through October heating bill, totally divided it by two, and then added the $4,000 which was their contract for last year. And so we came up but it came up to like $17,000 And so we rounded it up to $2,000 per lane is what we did. And then the jets who have chose to swim past October at the pool, they assumed the complete heating bill for November, December, which was nearly $10,000 for the gas bill. And so they absorbed that themselves.

So we try to make it fair to the SWAT based on the time that they swam and the heating bill. And so that's how we came up with the $20,000

That was our first attempt at coming up with the number.

That is correct. Our first attempt.

That is correct. And so

then

they questioned that number.

Because they didn't swim till March.

Because they didn't swim till March of that year. And I think what numbers what what dates they came back with us with dates that they wanted actually in the contract for this year. For their

usage period. They want it to be May 1, October 31.

They want May 1 to October 31. Is that what it said? I think that's what it said.

How do we account for using the heater for other purposes that aren't related to the swim teams?

They wanted May 1 to October 1.

May 1 to October 1 is what they want their primary usage period to be. Correct. And I'm assuming they're not gonna change that. But if they do, we can adjust.

I'm sorry, I was looking at Carol. I should've asked you Jim. She's like I'm not the pool heater.

I'm like I don't know when

to How

do we account for the pool heater cost for other purposes that aren't related to the two swim teams?

It probably wouldn't be used if it wasn't for the

swim team. That's what I figured.

Correct. If we were just swimming from May to September, most likely would not run the heater. I mean, the pool water temperatures typically from May to September would be fine. The heater runs very minimally. It's outside of that time before the temperature outside gets warm that we really crank up. It's about $5,000 a month, November, December.

So what

we In January. In January.

If they choose to swim in January.

If they choose to swim in January, February.

So last year, what we did is we charged how much a year?

Was 4 So thousand per

it was 4,000 per year each with they each divide the heater in half if they are in the pool. It was like an algebraic equation, but they figured it out.

We do a weighted average.

But the problem is I don't the reason we went to a lane don't talk to me math right now. The reason we went to a per lane usage attempt is because to me, it shouldn't be 4,004 thousand if one is gonna end up with 6 lines and one in four, one in seven and one in three, or whatever that might be. Correct. We needed to try to come up with a per lane usage, and so we wanted to then make it easier on everyone and try to incorporate the heat into that, which didn't oh, they're gonna yell at us. It's 05:30. Which didn't I I don't know how you do that.

It was $9,167 for the first ten months of year, January through October was the gas bill. And then the gas bill November, December, the total gas bill was $10,746

So do you have a suggestion of a fair way to put the cost in if we go back to each team splitting the cost of the heat for the time that they have during their primary usage period? And then Jet, I assume, would be willing to take over the heat if they're using it and they're the only ones using it the rest of year. There

was a comment made by coach the SWAT that he wasn't aware he could swim past October 1.

But we made them aware now and they came back saying they only wanted it

in October they chose to swim then we would have to come back and I look at

just say we allocated the heating cost for the month based upon the number of swimmers, the number of lanes they had that month. I mean just to have them pay for it after the fact and

And leave the but we've gotta adjust our $2,000 lane usage fee because that was anticipating including heat. So do we want to so what do we charge per lane?

Take it out and just say the the heating bill will be added on to you said how how much was it for the year?

For the year, it's close to 20,000. You do twelve months.

I can't do more

than that's 2,000.

Okay. So let's let's talk easy math. So we have 10 lanes.

Yep.

If we last year, they paid $4,000 for the year plus heating. So that adds up to 8,000, which is not mathable for me. Mathable. But because we inflation, we now charge $5,000 would have been our contract if we were splitting $50.50, and we say a thousand dollars per lane plus the heating bill. Does that make sense? You got 10 lanes. That's a thousand dollars per lane. However, that divvies

up. Yeah.

And then they split the heating bill for the time that they're using the pool. That sound fair?

Carol I got one more provision. Don't throw anything at me. I'm sorry.

I think that I would

like to see a due diligence clause built into this based off the AAU numbers that at any given time that we can ask for certification of those numbers or to provide proof of those individuals just in case a lot of Joe Smith starts showing up on rosters.

Do they pay it monthly? How often do you pay an AA membership? Monthly? Yes.

Means are recorded and broadcast. That's all we have to do.

Okay. We bill on a monthly basis, and we bill it through our billing software program called Team Unify, which I believe is the same software almost all swim teams use. And so that is a monthly billing. Again, all of our swimmers who are billed are AUs registered because we need that for insurance purposes. So we could we you can check the numbers. I can give you that number.

So if you lost members, it would be in your best interest to take them off so that you're not having to pay for them? We don't we have

have to pay a small service fee to Team Unify of, like, $3 a swimmer. We don't have to pay a monthly fee to AU. That is a year membership that goes from August sorry, September 1 through August 31. And USA Swimming goes from January 1 to December 31. So we do not pay a monthly charge to those organizations. It's a yearly fee that we pay.

So why would the numbers fluctuate so much? Just because people might switch teams and would want to?

Or

people Well, they've might been join paid days,

but as a gentleman, they won't switch that much. You know, you may have three to six swimmers switch teams or drop out or give up. But once they pay, they stay on that roster. Now, you can physically change from one team to another. Most people don't do that because your AU registration just kind of carries with you. But yes, that is possible. But maybe it's

So people quit, they're probably still gonna be reflected on your AU.

They would still be reflected because they are registered for a year. So they would drop off at the end of August.

At the end of August. I don't know, yeah that would be for both teams.

Yeah that would be

One question Mr. Chairman, if we are going to determine the Lane division by a date in the future which is two days from today, is there a possibility that one team might juice their numbers? That was why we were trying

to pick last year's numbers, but that

was awesome. They don't have to register a bunch of fake people. I mean, don't think, I would hope they wouldn't do that. Mean

I would hope neither one would be.

No, I would We've been surprised before.

I would find that doubtful. I would be shocked if somebody would go to that level of subterfuge on the lane discussion. I mean, I would, you know, it's not something we would do and Will and I butt heads occasionally and I don't think it's something he would really do.

I think that you do

it as of 9AM tomorrow, 8AM. Of course, they could all sign up tonight, I guess, not knowing how the website works so.

Well I don't know and you know. I'm just gonna say I don't know.

We just need to get this

right up. Just to answer your question though, LJ. So we did have, in the last two weeks we had swimming tryouts. So we have added 60 swimmers trust and verify but they're all signed they have thirty days to sign up for AU so they're still signing up. So we're at 158. We anticipate like 170, 180. We'll give you the actual numbers they're actually signed up today, where they actually are. And they've come on board in the last two weeks. It takes a while for the new parents to learn how to do AU registration. So yes, there are some that we have today on there, but feel free to call each one of them and verify they're actually active swimmers.

I'm gonna go ahead and call this to a conclusion.

Can I have one comment?

Final comment.

Final comment. We can give you an AAU list that shows from the AAU organization. It does not give you, as I found, the home address of the person. But I can also give you a printout from our team team unified billing program, which will give you the name of the parent and the address and the details of that particular member. So that is a part you'd have to double check that if it's something you wanna I mean

if we're talking about five kids or I don't think that's kind of a non issue. But if the other team raises that as a concern, we will take that

extra Understand step completely. About

Again, five kids, we're not gonna worry about it

either. We just wanna be. Just trying to figure

out that.

We appreciate that. Alright, you. Alright, we're gonna call it to an end. Is there a motion to adjourn?

So moved. Second.

All in favor, say aye. Aye. We stand adjourned. Mr. Tate?

We adjourn.