Zoning Board of Adjustment - Regular Meeting

Reading of the public statement.

Thank you very much. I'd like to invite everybody for a flag salute and at the end we'll pause for a moment of silence for those who serve currently and previously served.

Thank you, everyone. Mr. Labros is here. Mr. Labros is here. We'll hold off on the roll call momentarily until Steve gets up here. You're here. All right, Danielle. Here. Here.

Mr. Callaghan? Here.

Thank you very much. Okay. We'll open this up for public comment for any matters that are not on the agenda. If anybody has anything, you can feel free to step forward. Seeing no one, we'll move on. All right, so next on our agenda here, we have approval of minutes, but we are going to carry that to the next meeting. hope everybody got the email from Danielle today next item we have is our annual report that was sent out for review I think everything seems pretty good I don't know if anybody has any questions comments concerns any additional recommendations and I guess we can make a motion to either of

Thank you very much. Okay. Next item is our one resolution for bridge asset management.

Yeah, Mr. Chairman, that's the resolution where last year we granted some submission waivers. So that's the resolution granting them as part of that resolution. There are certain waivers that were not granted, so the app is going to have to provide them prior to a public hearing. Okay. I need a motion and a second to moralize the resolution. Okay.

Anybody want to make a motion?

I'll make it. Thank you.

Thank you, Steve. I'll second. Thank you. I can't because I'm not listening.

Mr. Kalyan? Yes.

Mr. Lambros?

Yes.

You sit down, sir.

Okay, members of the board, this is a waiver hearing. The applicant has submitted certain plans that our engineer has reviewed. We have the required checklist. That's documents they should submit before they get a public hearing. However, when they do not provide it, they have an opportunity to request the waiver. Mr. Patel, I'm going to swear you in if you say anything, so please raise your right hand. You swear from the following testimony about to give us a whole truth, nothing but the truth. I do.

Okay. Okay.

So I think, Mr. Chair, always the easiest when we're dealing with this. The board has a copy of the report dated June 29, 2026, indicating all the items that the applicant has not complied. Mr. Blesch has identified them. I think we just recommend Mr. Blesch go through those and what ones that he would need for the board to make an informed decision. and ones that he doesn't think the board needs to make an informed decision. But in all these cases, we do, if the board grants approval, we do note that if during the actual public hearing the board deems necessary approval to review those type of documents, we have the right to go ask for them.

Okay, good evening.

Yeah, this was a little extensive, but most of it's just house cleaning things like applicants' names and all that under the plans. He's really just looking to put in a garage. The only things I would recommend that you don't waive is I think it's important to have the list of 200-foot property owners and an aerial photo of the site so we can see what's going on around it. Also, I think it would be a valuable thing to see where the – the tree vegetation are because i believe he's putting the garage in an area at least it shows on the plan an area that has a lot of trees in it versus a lot of the property is actually open so i don't know if the applicant would be willing to move that away from the tree boundary but i think the aerial photo would kind of weigh that out other than that i don't have a problem recommending the waiver of the other submission waivers and mr chairman mr patel did do a resubmission after the completeness and i don't know if

we've had a chance it just came in after last week when you were in so some of the aerial has been imposed now on our plan so that one is actually now submitted so mr patel are you you're okay with putting the 200 list on the plans providing an aerial and what's the third oh really the aerial i see is on there but it's really to show the tree line where the two where the proposed shed is because i think the on the southern border there

It's that there's the most that you can see in the aerial that's on the right-hand side. A lot of the property line on both the left and right side are heavily treed.

All right, so why don't we request that? I assume that area, did you do that, sir? Okay. That aerial, you superposed your site plan on that aerial, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes, on that aerial. On the aerial, that's just an aerial from Google, like trying to get the current lay of the land, and basically it provided the exact location of where that would go in the tree line.

Okay. Why don't you provide that on one sheet rather than a thumbnail? Would that be better?

Yes. A larger scale, yeah.

Yeah.

I did provide . I have just a general question. Are you clearing any trees to put up the shed or the greenhouse? No. Okay. Because based on the, what I looked at on the plan where you put down the, red and blue, it looked like it was in the trees and it looked like that needed to be cleared.

Yeah, there's the gaps between there. So the shed, it's a shed, it's a pretty small shed. And then there's just a small, um, paper pad for like a greenhouse, which is only about 10 feet long. Okay.

And I think that'll be clarified once you give a larger size plan so we can kind of take a look at that. Okay.

So you would like a more detailed, no, like,

That's your existing aerial, correct?

Yes.

Do you have one with the proposed improvements on an aerial like this? Because that's existing, right? So, like, what you're proposing, your shed, your thing, superimposed on an aerial so we could see it in kind of... on an aerial rather than on a plain plan so you can see where it is compared to the existing tree line rather than on your regular plan. You know what I'm talking about?

So take this picture and put the two boxes on it.

It was on the last one. I didn't do it on this one. I put it on the bigger sheet that I had put together.

I think what we're asking is that we want to see that on a larger scale so you can see if the trees are really as sparse as you're saying. Okay. So if you blow that aerial up and show the two structures on it, we'll be able to tell if you need to clear any trees or not. AND THERE WAS A COUPLE OF HOUSE CLEANING ITEMS JUST THAT I THINK YOU MIGHT WANT TO ANSWER WHEN YOU COME BACK. I DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU WERE PROPOSING ANY UTILITIES UP TO THE SHED, NO ELECTRIC FOR NO LIGHTS OR ANYTHING? OKAY. AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU WERE PLANNING ANY CONCRETE PADS AROUND THE BUILDING FOR ENTRANCE AND EXITS? NO. EVERYTHING WAS JUST GOING TO STEP RIGHT OUT INTO THE DIRT? YEAH. THE GREENHOUSE YOU WERE PUTTING A SLAB, WEREN'T YOU?

NO, IT'S JUST PAPERS.

OH, PAPERS, OKAY. YEAH. SO YOU'RE PROPOSING ON THE RIGHT, THE UPPER PART OF THAT,

Yeah. So there's open areas that this aerial shell was the most current one I can get. But when we had bought it, there was a lot of dead trees underneath. So there's like spaces where there's like no actual vegetation undergrowth anymore in those areas. And that's where the most sunlight comes. So that's where we wanted to kind of have the shed and the greenhouse located. So you've got the left side of that area. The left side, yeah. Where the trees are thicker. Yeah, the other document would show.

That would be butted up to the field then? The tree line and this.

Okay, I got it. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Okay, if you're saying that that arrow is pretty much not completely accurate based on what you do, I really recommend that, you know, how big is the shed you're putting it?

It's 20 feet by 10 feet.

So it's not that large. What I would strongly do is stake out where you're going to put it. Put four stakes in the ground, take a rope, and show where it is and then take pictures of it. So when you come back to the board, we say, oh, okay, it's here. It's a better visual understanding than looking at it like that. You know what I mean? That'll just make it easier for everybody.

Danielle, if you scroll up a little bit, what I was referencing is there. This one? Yes. Okay, I got it. Because it almost looks like everything's in the tree line.

yeah and and again as i mentioned those some of those trees were um some were dead in there that you know were before the construction after the construction yeah so if you show where you now you understand what i'm saying that if you show what where the box is going to be you're like it's not really the area but look it's all dead it's all open space that'll help you out okay well isn't is this sufficient for the area

Yeah, I think that would be fine if he's going to do the localized picture you're asking about putting the four stakes in would be more beneficial.

Visually, it's not seen from Millstone Road or anything. It's pretty hidden. Even your two neighbors on your cul-de-sac here, it's not visual from the street. No. Which is a good thing.

That's the picture from Millstone Road. It would be behind those trees. You can see them. And then from Parker. Our orientation is on Parker. This is Parker Court here. Yeah, this is our Parker Court. You cannot see it from Parker Court either or the corner of Millstone.

All right. All right, Mr. Chairman, what I'd recommend, he's kind of provided some of the stuff. I think probably appropriate. He's going to have to notice to all the joint properties within 200 feet anyway. We make a motion to grant the waivers, schedule them for a hearing, and highly recommend those site-specific pictures so that you can show us that, no, I'm not taking 10 trees down for this. Here's the space. Is that acceptable to the board? Yes.

Fair enough.

So you need a motion and second to approve the waivers based on your recommendation.

Yes. I'll make a motion to approve the waivers based on your recommendation. I'll second. Thank you. Chairman Lawson? Yes.

Mr. Opaya? Yes. Mr. Cadigan? Yes. Mr. Carr? Yes.

Mr. Lambert?

Yes.

Okay, sir, get that stuff. Talk to Danielle. She'll schedule for a hearing. You'll have to get a list of the 200 feet, all properties of 200 feet. You'll have to send that notice out after she gives you that date. Okay. And then you'll be here for public hearing. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Patel. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

All right. Ready for our next applicant, 352 Monmouth Road, LLC. Good evening, Mr. Chairman. How are you today?

Very well. Okay, Mr. Chairman, as the board does in its normal course, we pre-mark certain exhibits, which I'll read into the record as follows. Let me just start off. For the record, our viewed notice is joined to property owners, and after the date of publication, they are in order, and the board has jurisdiction to hear this matter. As the Board does in its normal course, I pre-mark certain exhibits, which I'll read into the record as follows. A1 is the jurisdictional notice. A2 is the application checklist and administrative forms. A3 is the operations statement consisting of one page prepared by Kevin Daly of Supreme Treatment Center, dated 5-5-26. A4, a copy of zoning denial, dated 5-1-26. A5, copy of Asbill Plan, one sheet prepared by Crest Engineering, dated 12-20-22. A6, copy of prior resolution Z12-06, dated 2-27-2013. The Board has also marked its own exhibits, which are marked as ZB1, Planners Report, dated 7-17-26, and our Engineers Report, dated 7-22-26, is marked as ZB2. Of course, Council, you can introduce any other evidence you deem necessary and appropriate for your application. Prior to your entering your appearance, for the board's perspective, this is a two-fold application. This applicant has requested as appeal the determination of the zoning officer denying a zoning permit for the use, which we'll get into. The applicant says in the alternative, says, hey, if you don't grant the appeal, we would say that we are entitled to a use variance rather than an appeal to the zoning officer. Hey, if the zoning officer is right, we still think we have the appropriate use for this zone and should be permitted within the zone. So they're going to do two-fold. We've done this before in normal course. There's no reason for two hearings because the evidence is all the same. So the applicant is going to proceed with their normal testimony and Their initial argument is going to be the appeal. We'll see how that goes. Sometimes we make a vote on the appeal. Sometimes the applicant waives the appeal, goes right to use variance. We'll see how that goes as we go along. So, Mr. Locata, please enter your appearance. You may present your application.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bella. Peter Licata, the law firm of Son of Lickmeyer and Licata, Freehold, New Jersey, on behalf of the applicant, I concur with your attorney's introductory remarks. As some of you may remember, this property was last before you in 2013 for use variance approval to expand what the board determined was a pre-existing non-conforming office use and had been that office use at that time, 13 years ago, for over 38 years. We are here tonight for both of those purposes. I have two main witnesses I would like to present. Sean Farrell, who is a member and officer of the applicant. I also have Allison Coffin, our professional planner. In the gallery, but not intended to be called, are Kevin Daly, also a principal of the applicant, as well as Andy Kiley, the property manager, and Spiros Flejos, who is a principal of the property owner. Thank you. we may want to swear all of them in in case they do happen to answer the question. So I guess, can I ask each of you to stand up?

Well, Mr. O'Connell, we'll swear. If they come up, we'll swear them in one at a time.

Okay. So my first witness will be Sean Farrell. Would you like to swear him?

Sure. Mr. Farrell, please raise your right hand. Do you swear from the fine testimony about the gives, the holds, or nothing but the truth? I do. Please state your name for the record. Spell your last name, sir. Sir.

Yeah, it's Sean Farrell, F-A-R-R-E-L-L.

Thank you, Sean. What are your responsibilities with the Applicant Supreme Treatment Center?

So I'm the Director of Operations at that site, and I basically manage the team as well as the localized staff there.

And how long have you been in the field of behavioral health counseling?

I've been in the field for 12 years. In September, it will be my 13th year at the start of it.

And have you directed operations for counseling offices in other states as well as this one?

Yes, yes, I have.

And where was those?

I came from a large group. I spent a lot of my tenure there. We were a national brand and had multiple locations in Illinois, Washington State, California, Florida, and New Jersey.

Is it fair to say that you're familiar with the state licensing requirements in New Jersey and other states?

Yes, I am.

And do you propose to direct a behavioral health counseling office at 352 Monmouth Road?

Yes.

Can you explain for the board, in layman's terms, what is a behavioral health counseling office?

Yeah, it's essentially a clinical space to have an outpatient service for therapy for people who have struggled with substance abuse.

And what requirements must your patients or clients satisfy to attend these therapy sessions?

So to be a patient of ours at this site specifically, you would have had to have had some form of long-term sobriety, whether it's going to a detox and completing it, going to a residential, a hospital, and having some length of sobriety to be and come and seek counseling with us. And do they also have to be medically stable? Yes, they need to be medically stable like 30 days off of a substance to come to this counseling site.

And who provides the counseling to your patient clients?

It's typically a therapist, so it's an LMSW, so it's an LSW, or it's a CADC, which is a drug and alcohol counselor, and these are all licensed by the state of New Jersey.

And just again, you said LS, like licensed social worker, is that right?

Yeah, correct. It's a licensed social worker and then a licensed master level social worker. That's because they've completed master level degree requirements.

That is correct. Mr. Farrell, sorry to interrupt. I just want to clarify a few notes. You mentioned the patient has to have long-term sobriety, then you said 30 days clean. Are you using the term sobriety in the generic term in the sense that I think of the word sobriety, I think of alcohol? okay right but you're not that's not what your your sobriety means any type of substance is that fair to say it's fair to say okay because i because then you said off a substance my mind i'm thinking alcohol sobriety off of beer wine and tequila no i well i'm i'm in long-term sobriety i'm an aa guy for like 15 years so i just i mean that's like I just want to make it clear that you're talking about all substance rather than just one substance. Yes, that's correct.

Can I just interject for a quick moment? On your point, you had mentioned long-term sobriety, but then long-term. medically stable for 30 days. There's two different things, correct?

Correct. So yeah. So to be within that parameter, like it's a third, it's, I guess my point in saying it is that it's not somebody that's coming off the street and coming into the counseling site. It's somebody who has been stable, has been to a detox, has been to a residential in some form or fashion and has sustained 30 days of, of substance free behavior.

So medically stable for 30 days, is that similar to long-term sobriety, also 30 days? Or what do you consider long-term?

I guess for the sake of the counseling site, the term would be like a 30-date term and then coming to us because we're in an outpatient setting. So it's somebody who just isn't just rumbling in is my point. Okay.

So minimum 30 days, whether it's... 30 days doesn't seem like long-term to me, though.

I mean, I can't blanket it. Like, it's not every case is so different. My point is just that they're coming to us after being stable.

And you get some kind of confirmation from the detox facility?

Right, like a letter of completion.

Right, okay.

Correct.

And if it was a residential care facility, you would be getting a letter from that inpatient residential facility that they have completed their stay satisfactorily?

That's correct.

Would there be any medications prescribed or dispensed at this location?

No.

Would there be any medications stored at this location?

No.

Would there be any medications accepted to be surrendered at this location by any client?

No.

Would there be any doctors or advanced nurse practitioners providing services at this site?

No, there would not be.

And what would be your days and hours of operations?

It would be 8.30 to 4.30 would be the operation. It would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then Saturday it would be an 8.30 to 12.30 group.

And those hours are a reconsideration since the zoning permit was filed when you said 9 to 5. You found that the 8.30 to 4.30 is a little bit better. Is that correct?

Correct.

And how many total employees would you have on the site at one time in a maximum scenario?

In a maximum scenario, it would be eight total employees.

And how does that break down between, say, staff and the counselors?

So at a site like this, it would be three to four counselors and utmost of three to four staff members performing office duty and case management, stuff like that.

And would there be any after-hours or overnight stays of either counselors or your patients at this facility?

No, there would not be.

And how many total parking spaces does the building have?

It has 25 total parking spaces.

And does that include ADA spaces?

Yeah, there's two spaces for handicap accessible, and then there's 23 actual parking spaces.

Non-restricted spaces?

Non-restricted spaces, yeah. Okay.

So that would leave you with 15 non-restricted spaces if you had the total maximum complement of eight staff and counselors, is that correct?

That is correct.

Okay.

How do you organize seeing your clients?

Through appointment basis.

Do you accept any walk-ins?

We do not.

Do you offer individual and group sessions then that are pre-scheduled?

Yes, we do.

And then do you therefore change or adjust the amount of staff and counselors as needed depending on whether somebody's coming in for individual or for groups?

Exactly, yes. So it's just kind of based off the need and how many patients are attending would be the staff to patient ratio.

So then to get to that specifically, how do you organize your sessions in a given day?

So we, in this model, we break it up into two sessions. So we're able to kind of work to the client. So we'll have like an 8.30 to 12.30 group. That would be somebody who's coming in the morning. Let's say they're working afternoon or so on and so forth. Maybe a younger person, 20 to 25. And then we'll run a 12.30 to 4.30 shift. So that would be like an afternoon group. So you'll have people scheduled to do appointments in the morning. They'll do group facilitating in that section, and then they'll be at 1230 to 430, and then they'll do that, and then it'll close at 430. And so you basically have two blocks, a morning session and an afternoon session. Exactly, you have two blocks.

And how many maximum clients or patients would you have in a session?

I would say no more than seven, eight patients total in a morning session and then again repeating in an afternoon session.

Okay.

So based on that, you're confident that you can accommodate both your staff and your patients with 23 unrestricted spaces?

Without question. Okay.

How do your clients come to have contact with you or find you to come to you? How does that work?

So what we do is we do a lot of online advertising. We use like a GMB listing, like a Google My Business listing. We have a legit script campaign that we use to use keyword searches on Google. And we essentially use a marketing budget and allocate those funds to use that stuff. Generate phone calls to an admissions team that then creates appointments and applications. brings patients to the facility.

And that admissions team also screens the prospective clients to make sure that they meet your medical and sobriety standards, is that correct?

Yeah, so it's a two-fold process. So you have an admissions rep on the phone who's doing an initial screen and an intake. They're setting an appointment. They're coming in. A facilitator is then seeing them, a licensed therapist, and then they're doing an intake in person, and then ultimately the decision will be made if that is a good fit for our clinic.

So they're, I'm sorry, they're like essentially interviewed, is that?

The initial one is more of like a screen, like what, hey, what is, Because you've got to think, anybody can call. Anyone can say anything over the phone. We don't know them. It's a stranger. So they're going to do a standard questionnaire with somebody, an admissions representative. And then, yes, they're going to come in and actually, with somebody who's licensed by the state of New Jersey, will then essentially interview that patient. And I know there's been questions about, oh, well, how long is long-term sobriety? Those types of questions would then go on to that patient. and then they'll make an assessment if this is a good fit for our space.

And the admissions team who does that initial screening call, this is what they do, this is their training for it, they have a set of questions.

Yeah, there's a training, but that person isn't making a decision for the clinic.

But they're making sure that they're not, like you said, just someone making a call, somebody that might actually know some people.

You know, they could be clicking on an ad and saying something or clicking on the site and thinking it's something and they be answering. But then like when they get to the site, it's just like, you know, what is really going on? And then we'll they'll make an appointment with a therapist and then we'll see if it's a fit. But we're only doing 20 intakes a month, you know.

That was my next question, was how many?

Right. So it's not like it's a frequent flyer thing. We're a small boutique shop. We're servicing a small population here in Millstone. This isn't like a big, massive hospital setting we're trying to run.

And then at some point, you said you would have maybe eight patients per session maximum. So there's a potential you could be maxed out with your clients. And if anybody else were to call, your admissions team would have to turn them away? Do you create a wait list?

I mean, to be fair, like I've worked in the industry for a really long time, so like I pretty much know every player in the state of New Jersey, so I'm able to facilitate, you know, hey, you can call this person. This may be a good opportunity for you. This is somebody to help.

So you can't take them in. You're equipped to recommend another path for them.

I'm definitely, yeah, equipped, yes.

Thank you.

Do you find in your experience for a location and a therapist office such as this that the clients come from far and wide or sort of a surrounding area?

Our main part of advertisement is a Google My Business listing, same as any other business. So, like, essentially our target is just in this general area. And that's what your expectation would be? Yeah, that is our expectation.

So do you set it like a 35 mile perimeter?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Just base it like same as anyone who, the local print shop or the pizzeria that I just ate at. I'm doing the same thing as that guy. Nothing special, nothing unique.

Given the requirements that people have to meet in order to be seen here, what's your experience with emergency situations and the frequency of an emergency situation?

I would say in emergency situations are few and far between. It's not something that we're going to experience daily, weekly, even monthly. I would say if, God forbid, something does happen, we would have an EMT called or a 911 call by staff who is trained to handle that, whether it's like a cardiac event or something in that form, and then we would just do what any citizen would do.

And again, you would have licensed social workers on site as well as certified alcohol and drug counselors?

That is correct. That is correct.

How many rooms are actually in the building?

I believe it's six rooms. Six rooms to be exact.

And that's on the first floor?

This is just all occupied one floor.

But there is a basement that you'd be using for storage, for record storage?

Just storage, yeah. No patient interaction.

And so of the six rooms, how do you break out the use of those rooms between staff and counseling?

Yeah, so we'll have two large group rooms that will facilitate groups through block scheduling, 830 to 1230, 1230 to 430, and then they'll be pulled into four counseling offices where our counselors will be. and they'll do individual therapy at those times on those scheduled days.

And what kind of deliveries do you need to run an office such as this? A janitorial office, something like that?

Maybe a weekly Amazon delivery.

And do you propose any physical changes either to the building, the parking area, the drive aisles, landscaping, lighting signage?

No, no, nothing like that.

Mr. Chairman, at this point I would make this witness available for additional questions.

Two quick questions. Please. The admission screening. Now, they're the ones that verify someone's sobriety term, whether it's 30 days for medical or long-term stability. Right. Your initial screener is the one that's going to verify that person?

So initially, yeah, they're going to ask for some form of a document. Like I said, like a discharge paperwork. Where did you come from? How long have you been? What have you done? And then they'll just do like an overview of, yeah, like when was your last use? What are you struggling with? Because sometimes this is like twofold stuff where people have like minor drug issue or had a slip or drank too much and felt like, or am I out of control? And it's like, oh, they're just struggling with a lot of pressure at work or it's too much stress or can't pay the bills or the marriage. So like that's more so the patient that we're treating. Like we're not after this like repeated criminal drug addict that's in and out, in and out. Like that isn't going to be a fit for, I wouldn't even recommend them to go to us because our therapist wouldn't even be able to treat that individual.

We answered part of that because most of it was just trying to clarify how do they basically screen it to verify it.

You need to present a discharge. Like you were discharged from here on this date and what time.

And then that's basically the pre-approval process.

And that's the two-step pre-approval. Okay, we understand. Can we book you an appointment and get you in person?

And the other question I had was you had mentioned individual and group settings, so you're going to go from group to individual, or is there cases where people can just come in for an individual session?

Correct, yeah, both, yeah. So you can be in a group setting or in an individual setting, yes. Okay.

Question, two questions. Please. Mr. O'Connor, is your client the proposed tenant or owner or contract purchaser? Proposed tenant. The next issue is, you talked about this 8.30, 12.30, so we have an idea. If, is that for a patient come in, are they there for those four hours?

Yes.

So it's like their four-hour block is group session, individual session, break, everything else. It's not like in for one hour, leaving. It's a whole. No, no, no. It's a half-day type thing. Right. how many times a week slash month does one individual usually go, or is it different for every patient? Or do you have a, Hey, you got to come once a week, twice a week, three times a week type of thing. Or is that a per patient?

There's definitely nothing that can be blanketed, but yes, like in theory you would come and be, you know, let's say John Doe is the morning group guy and he comes eight 30 to 1230 Monday through Friday for three weeks. His therapist deems, hey, he's been clean for six months. I want to bump you down to just doing individual therapy on Thursdays at 11.30. And he comes 11.30 to 12.30. Anybody else have anything?

Yeah, I do.

I do. So you testified that the facility is primarily trying to attract clients that have a level of sobriety, whether it's 30 days or more a year, 60 days. I mean, everybody needs help, whether it's a day, a month, a year, or a lifetime, right? Some people need help. And the ones that are chronic, the ones that you know, have repeat relapses over and over again. Sometimes they're the ones that need the most help. So how do you, you know, how do you feel good about not trying to attract people who really need help and turning away the folks that need it the most?

And Steve, this is near and dear to my heart, so I do understand. But just to be clear, If a client has come to me and has failed to stay sober and I've sent this person out and they've gone and sought a detox or another setting, they come back and at some point, like I have to understand that my model that I'm doing here at this outpatient level is not gonna work for that patient. So I have to be able to support them. I'll get family involved in emergency contact, give them resources. but they should not be at an outpatient level. It doesn't mean that I'm giving up on them or not supporting them, but they can't be at this level. It's just not going to work. Like if they need intense long-term treatment, they may need to leave the state. Like for me to be fair, like I grew up in Bridgewater, New Jersey, my dad sent me to Florida and said, never come home until I had long-term sobriety. Cause I could not figure it out. It's not that my dad didn't love me, but I could not get sober in Bridgewater, New Jersey. It just was not working. I went to all the local facilities. I tried, I tried. It just, it was not going to work. I had an enabling mom. Like there's factors where like, I'm blessed enough to have walked both lines. And I know like, kind of like I've made a career out of helping people. So like, I'm not rich here. You know, like I've made my career in life to give back and help. And if they are not meeting this, like for instance, like if they're not coming to group or they're late or they're not showing up and they're setting appointments with the therapist to show up and like it's a sign like John's not doing well. So we're going to call an emergency contact that we have on file. We're going to say, hey, you know, John hasn't showed up Tuesday or Wednesday. Well, he told me he did. Well, we might need to do an intervention. Can we get somebody on a Zoom? Can we send a Microsoft Teams out? Can we talk? He doesn't show up. He's not willing. At this point, we're going to give other references like he may need to go here or try here. Yeah, so we would not treat a person who can't have continuous sobriety at this particular location. But that doesn't mean that we're giving up on them and won't support them. Because the ultimate goal is to get them a lump of sobriety and then have them come and do an outpatient weekly therapy session with us.

No, I get the whole tough love thing.

I had a tough dad, yeah.

Trying and helping is what it's all about. It's all about trying and helping, yes. Until the help finally gets through. You know, every life... you know, is worth saving some of them, some of them bottom out and in depth. So you want to try to help them not get to that level.

I've made my entire life's work about that. Okay.

Is there a particular reason this site fits your business?

To be fair, yeah. So what we liked is that it was kind of off the grid. It was in a kind of far off the road in a wooded area. And we seemed like that would be like a little safer for our patient to be comfortable going and maybe not wanting to be seen or being and remaining anonymous. Have you seen, like it's in a, like during like a month where trees are having leaves, like it is like, completely off the grid in the back of a wooded area.

And is part of that because your clientele that you seek out are often local?

It's clearly visible from 537. Oh, clearly. You pass it, you see the 537.

Hold on, hold on. Everyone will have an opportunity to testify regarding everything. We just can't have a meeting where people are screaming, yelling out from the audience, but you're all given an opportunity to cross-examine and speak about any issues.

Let me just clarify to see if I understand what you're saying. You would prefer a site like this that's by itself rather than, say, in a shopping center. Correct. Because this is just you. You don't have other tenants right up, like, sharing a wall with you. And your business model attracts all local people. So there is a chance that somebody coming might know your neighbors.

Yeah, I guess I did not explain that correctly. But, yes, that would be a better way to articulate that. And do you have...

Counselor, client, confidentiality concerns that you have to address to in a setting such as this?

We do. We have to be HIPAA compliant.

Thank you.

Okay. Any other questions at the moment?

Just a comment that I'm not sure there's a significant difference between the prior use of this and this new use, given that it's not a hospital-type syndrome.

We're going to get to that. We're going to have Ms. Coffin testify. We'll have comments from our board, and then we'll have that discussion.

So if there were no pending questions for Mr. Farrell, then I would call Alison Coffin.

Okay. And for members of the public, what's going to happen is, Ms. Coffin's going to testify. Assuming that's the last witness, we will then open it to the public. Anyone in the public will have an opportunity to do two separate things. One, you can ask any questions of any of the witnesses that testify. Two, you can then make a statement about your position or give any testimony at that time as well so you'll have an opportunity to do both so the fact that he sat down he's not allowed to leave uh anyone in the public will have the opportunity to ask questions and the board obviously can ask questions at any time if a question pops in their head okay ms coffin please raise your right hand you swear from the fine testimony about the kids to hold you it's nothing but the truth yes i do please state your name spell your last name man

Allison Coffin, C-O-F-F-I-N. I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey. I'm certified by the American Institute of Certified Planners. I've had my license and certification since 2005. I've appeared here a few times. Just a couple. In the years, yes.

And you'll accept your qualifications.

Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Coffin. Could you review for the board what you looked at in preparation for your testimony and then share your observations?

Sure. I looked through the file that we had from 2013 when we did the prior approval. The testimony I gave at that time, the resolution. I discussed the operation with the applicant. I read the professional review reports. And what we have here, it's a subject property that's 2.2 acres. It's located at 352 Monmouth Road. The lot is improved with a single-story office building and 25 surface parking spaces and associated site improvements consistent with that 2013 approval. The rear of the site is wooded and accesses from that two-way driveway to Monmouth Road. The site has that prior approval from 2013, which recognized the existing office use as a legal pre-existing non-conforming use and granted D variants for its continuation with the expanded and improved parking lot. The applicant proposes to operate the existing office building as a behavioral health counseling center with no physical changes proposed to the building and site. Services consist exclusively of individual one-on-one counseling and group therapy sessions. There are no medical services involved in this use, so there's no medication stored or administered on site, nor are there doctors and nurses as part of the staff. The program is strictly outpatient, and hours of operation are 8.30 to a.m. 8.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. Monday to Friday and 8.30 to 12.30 on Saturdays. The staff consists of four to five New Jersey licensed counselors, the LMSW, LSW, or the CVAC, plus the administrative and front desk personnel with, according to the applicant's statement, no more than eight employees on site at any given day. Clients are seen via the block scheduling with those morning sessions running from 8.30 to 12.30, And the p.m. sessions, 1230 to 430. In a typical day, we'll have seven to eight clients participating in each of those sessions with some additional clients showing up for those hour-long one-on-one sessions. There are 25 parking spaces on the site. This is more than adequate to support the staffing and client volume they're proposing. The applicant submitted a zoning permit application, which was denied. on the ground that the proposed use is not consistent with the 2013 use variance and the zoning officer characterized as limited to professional office use and the applicant is appealing to the board or in the alternative requesting a use variance. So the property here is in the R130 residence zone. It does not permit office uses. The existing office was recognized in 2013 as a pre-existing non-conforming use with the D variance granted at that time to continue it with the expanded parking lot critically. The 2013 resolution describes the approved use as office use and refers to the structure as an office building. It does not limit the approval to any specific professional discipline or population served. The Township Land Development Ordinance does not have an office use definition. It does have a professional office use and that's defined as the office of a member of a recognized profession including the offices of doctors, ministers, architects, professional engineers, planners, lawyers, real estate brokers, and such similar professional occupations. The ordinance does not separately define outpatient counseling in any way or behavioral health services or any analogous use category. The ordinance also includes a phrase, other office, within the context of a change in use definition, but this other office use is not defined, but it Logically, this might apply to things like corporate headquarters or administrative offices, which would not fall under the definition of professional office because these are not licensed professionals. The zoning officer's denial letter states the proposed use is not consistent with the current variance approval, but at some time during the review process, What was brought up was NJAC 1066-1.2, which has a definition of a drug treatment center, which covers independent clinics, licensed or approved by DHSS to provide health care for the prevention and treatment of drug addiction in accordance with other state statutes. Whether this definition is applicable here and whether the zoning officer's interpretation of that approval is correct are the central questions before the board. It is my opinion that your zoning officer here erred on the side of caution in finding that the proposed outpatient counseling use is inconsistent with the 2013 use variance and the township's definition of professional office, and that the board could reverse this denial. The 2013 resolution authorized office use in broad unqualified terms and does not restrict the use to any particular professional discipline or clientele. The 2013 approval recognized pre-existing non-conforming office use, just in those terms, and granted a D variance. The resolution uses the terms office use and office building without qualification. There is no language in the resolution limiting the approval to a particular type of office practice, a specific profession, or a particular class of person served. The zoning officer's narrow interpretation that the 2013 approval was limited to professional offices in the sense that it excludes licensed counseling in the context of a behavioral health clinic is not supported by the resolution's language or findings. Licensed counselors are members of recognized professions within the plain meaning of the township's ordinance definition of professional office. The ordinance definition of professional office use is not a closed list. It expressly intends such similar professional occupations beyond the name examples. One of the named examples is doctor's office. The LMSW and CDAC counselors proposed to work at this facility do hold New Jersey state licenses, and they are within a recognized profession. Their practice involves scheduled client's appointments, therapeutic sessions, clinical record keeping consistent with the doctor's office. Licensed counselors fall within that such similar professional occupations under the plain language of the ordinance. So even if we wanted to stick with a professional office use for this site, it does fall within that definition. So land use terms. The proposed use is functionally identical to other professional counseling offices that would unambiguously be considered professional office uses under the township's ordinance. I did take a look at NJAC 1066-1.2 and its definition of drug treatment center. This language was repealed by the state in 2017. It was replaced with substance use disorder treatment facility, and that's defined as an independent clinic, whether freestanding or a distinct part of facility, that is licensed or approved by the New Jersey State Department of Health or similarly licensed by DHS Division of Mental Health and Addiction Services to provide health care for the prevention and treatment of drug addiction or drug abuse in accordance with NJAC 8 colon 43 A dash 26 and or 10 16 10 colon 161 B. That latter one has since been repealed. NJ 8 colon 43 A 26. COVERS FACILITIES LICENSED AND APPROVED BY NEW JERSEY TO PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR THE PREVENTION AND TREATMENT OF DRUG ADDICTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT SECTION. THE PROPOSED USE HERE DOES NOT MEET THOSE CRITERIA. IT PROVIDES NO HEALTH CARE, EMPLOYS NO MEDICAL STAFF, AND STORES AND ADMINISTERS NO MEDICATIONS. SO BEYOND THAT, THIS DEFINITION APPEARS NOWHERE IN YOUR LAND USE ORDINANCE, AND ZONING COMPLIANCE HERE IS MEASURED AGAINST THE MUNICIPAL ORDINANCE, NOT STATE STATUTES. A STATE ADMINISTRATIVE CODE DEFINITION FROM AN related regulatory licensing context is not proper to apply to this analysis. So with all of that given, I think the board would be justified in finding that the use as it's proposed does fall under the definition of professional office use and could be granted approval for the site.

Thank you, Allison. She is available for questions.

If you want, I can also go through a D1 variance analysis.

Can you repeat that one?

You got it.

That was a lot to absorb, but we made a lot of sense. Honestly, I think, you know, just a general comment with the zoning officer. I think on the surface, I think on the hedging also on the side of caution, without knowing the application, I probably would have rejected it as well. Because, again, there was very minimal details presented, you know, with the application. And then we just heard a lot of testimony so far to explain what's been, you know, what the potential business is going to operate as. So that made a lot of sense.

I think one question that we do have to, that was kind of brought up, kind of sideways. Obviously you testified that the counselors are licensed.

Yes.

The question is, does the facility need to be licensed by New Jersey?

I believe it is, but that would be a question.

Mr. Frow could come up and answer that question, so I forgot to ask it to you before. So, Mr. Frow, you also have a question. What licenses, other than the employees who are providing counseling, what license do you need as the entity operating it to operate as an outpatient treatment center in the state of New Jersey? Yeah, we do need a state license. Okay, your other facility in New Jersey, where is that?

It's in Manalapan, New Jersey.

Okay, and that has a very similar license, correct?

It is licensed, yes, correct.

Where is that in Manalapan?

Across from Gus's Diner, 14333 North.

So we're still within that same 35-mile radius.

With our style, it's just we don't do volumes.

I'm just basing it on what you had mentioned before.

No, I completely understand. We keep it boutique. That's what we've found successful.

Okay. Is there any difference in the patients that will go to either site?

Yeah, there will definitely be a difference, yes, correct.

I mean, in specific treatment styles or the type of cases, or is it one for different... Not necessarily.

This stuff is just so case by case because everybody is struggling with something different. So it's just so hard to say one thing with any one patient. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you hear me, Eric? Or is that on air?

Chris, I'm sorry.

He's in between Steve and Eric.

Just to the point of how you were saying, you know, you, if you can't treat some cases at your one facility, you recommend them to a whole different place to try and understand if both these are the same in practice operations, treatment style, same types of cases, just locations or one is meant to service totally different set of clients.

No, it's pretty much exact similar model. Just we've had success. We've done it, been there for 13 months and we just want to continue servicing the population.

You're finding additional need?

We've had additional needs, certainly, yes.

Any potential crossover? Do you potentially see anybody from where the existing facility is going to the other facility?

No, it would be two completely staffed sites, no interchanging at all.

Patient-wise, potentially? No.

No?

So I have a question for Allison. Okay. What do you want me to put this? Just hold on. So I've always, I've always been, I've kind of learned through the years that in municipal land use law, if, if a use is not mentioned in, in the allowed, if, if it's not a lot, you know, mentioned that it's not permitted or it's not allowed, And I heard your testimony, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I think that you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. It's a different type of a patient compared to a medical doctor or a pediatrician or a general. children or adults for the typical medical purposes that the medical reasons that we're all used to this is a very very very different type of a client with very very different needs okay and they need to be addressed in a very different way okay then what you would see in an average doctor's office So I kind of want to emphasize that and say that this is very different than what you would see at a regular doctor's office.

In that case, I'd like to ask Allison a couple of follow-up questions.

Well, a question, Mr. McCullough. Your question is going to be related to the appeal or use variance standard. The appeal. Because it was the use for hours I was going to ask her to put the testimony in for the yield. But yeah, but if you're asking questions, that's fine.

So to Mr. Lambros's point, under the ordinance, a doctor's office is permitted. Is that correct?

That's correct.

So would a psychologist or a psychiatrist's office be permitted? Yes. Would a licensed social worker be able to open up their own office at this location?

I would assume yes, because the language of the definition is open and includes such similar professional occupations as part of the definition. And that would be similar occupations.

And in your experience, do psychiatrists, psychologists, licensed social workers see patients that fit the same profile as would be seen here by this applicant's licensed social workers and drug and alcohol addiction counselors?

Yes, with the exception that people who are struggling with substance abuse might be given more protection under federal law under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

So would you think that a psychiatrist or a psychologist would have group sessions with five or seven or eight or 10 or 12 patients all in one room at one time? Yes. You do think that?

Yes, especially for things like grief counseling. I know people who've gone through treatment for depression who had group and individual sessions.

Yeah, I disagree.

I have a question. Why is this being considered different than going to a therapist?

I don't think it is any different than going to a therapist. It's an assertion that it ought not to be.

I'm just wondering why is it even classified differently? It's not.

Is it because it's considered substance abuse and mental health services? Mental health services would be...

Would have to get into your zoning officer's head and make some assumptions I'm not comfortable making.

But our zoning code officer goes over many plans, many times a day sometimes, and they face the challenge with every one of them to try to apply the rules and regulations to the best

I think also the difference here is that this is a residential zone and the resolution reflects that it was a pre-existing non-conforming use of some type of office space, which is completely different than a zone that permits professional offices, okay? A pre-existing non-conforming use, you narrowly define it. That was what's there. That's the type of impact that was there. I think the zoning officer took that. This is not a zone that permits professional offices. If it was a zone that permits professional offices, his determination may have been different. We don't know. He didn't apply for one there. The zoning officer said, hey, this is not what was pre-existing on that site. That could be an expansion. It's different. That's what the zoning officer did. So it's different than they're not here saying we are permitted in the zone because professional office is permitted in the zone. What their testimony is is that this is nothing dissimilar to then what was there. It's an office is an office is an office. That's just what they're not taking the position. I'm just kind of explaining it in a different way. They're saying it's an office is an office. Office to the impact is the same. Look at the hours of operation. It's nothing different than you permitted an office because it was pre-existing. It's very similar. There's really no difference. They're not saying that professional offices' uses are permitted in the R-130 zone. They're saying that we are similar and same to what was there previously, and office use is an office use is an office use. That's kind of their argument, okay? And the board has to make a determination that, yes, that is similar to what was there previously. What is the pre-existing non-conforming use? Or it's not. This is a higher impact. Anything you want to say about why it's kind of different. That's for the board's choice on this one issue. Ms. Coffin now is going to start a testimony that let's forget about the pre-existing non-conforming use. They believe that this use is... A de-variage could be granted. This use satisfies the criteria for a use variance, which is the alternative argument that the applicant has. So I think we're going to stop the appeal stuff. I think we kind of got that. Let's have a testimony regarding the use variance. Now, in our minds, we've heard all the... Beyond factual, you know what his operations is, he's gone through all that. All that testimony carries over to Ms. Coffin. So now Ms. Coffin is going to testify saying, hey, I think this should be in the R-130 zone. Sure.

Hey, I think this should be in the R-130 zone.

No, but you testified before and you laid it out on the record that it seemed like this use was permitted in the R-130 zone when it actually is not.

No, not in the R-130 zone. on this particular site because this site has prior approval for office use. Correct. Not even professional office but just office.

But it has prior approval for a specific type of use

It does not. It really doesn't.

The resolution has office use. Because if I recall going back to 2012, it was prior a law office, may have been something else, but it's not specifically a lot of times you say, oh, this has been a deli coffee shop in a residential neighborhood in a residential zone. This was a previous office use was a generic term. the prior use for all those years previously and that's why i'm saying they're saying it's it's the same it's similar okay whether you guys determine whether it's not the same or similar that's a higher impact than was there previously that's a board's quality okay saying hey that the zoning officer said this is not same or similar it's more higher i'm just choosing a high impact because it's an easy way to explain it than what was there before and that's why the zoning officer was right or b no i think the zoning officer could have determined and should have determined that this is same or similar to a quote-unquote office use, which is the pre-existing non-conforming use for the site. Saying that again, now we could do the use variance stuff, which is the alternative, and I'll explain when we get to that how we do the votes.

So jokes aside, I would not say that this use belongs everywhere in the R-130 zone. It's particular to this site. My testimony is only for this use on this site. So it's my opinion that special reasons exist for the granting of this use variance And the granting of the variance would not impair the intent and purpose of the master plan and zoning ordinance, nor would it result in substantial detriment to the health, safety, and general welfare of the public. The special reasons concept here for the granting of the variance is advanced in that the purposes of the municipal land use law are being advanced. And the site is particularly suited to this proposed use. This site has a history of being used for office uses. And the proposed use is functionally identical to such office uses in terms of what sort of site features it needs. No new development is necessary to occupy this site as proposed. So there's no change needed for the parking, the site layout, the landscaping, the lighting. The existing office building is of an appropriate scale for a small counseling practice. Parking and access from County Route 537 are in place and adequate to support the scale of this practice. The site's location on a county highway corridor bounded by agricultural and large lot residential use means that the proposed use will have no meaningful impact on the surrounding area and is offered a degree of privacy that the same use in a strip mall would not have. And all of the existing variants and waivers that were granted in 2013 are in place, which make this site legally and practically configured for the type of use that the applicant's proposing. The variance advances some purposes of the municipal land use law. We have purpose A, which is advancing the public health, safety, and morals in general welfare, and that's directly advanced by the proposed use. And purpose G, providing appropriate space and appropriate locations for a variety of uses, in this case, a counseling office, and that's served by the site already functions as an office and is legally approved for office use. The proposed counseling center is a natural continuation of the established office use pattern on the property. There would not be a substantial detrimental impact to the public good or the surrounding properties from this use. The use operates during standard business hours from 8.30 AM to 4.30 PM, Monday through Friday, with a little bit on Saturday mornings, with a maximum of eight staff and a client population arriving for scheduled appointments. It's not meaningfully different in impact from an office use. It generates no medical waste, no controlled substances, no noise, no traffic beyond what is consistent with a professional office of this size. The building and the site remain unchanged. There's no overnight population, no emergency medical component on site, and no aspect of this use that degrades the character or the condition of the surrounding area. Approval of the application would therefore not impair the intent and purpose of the zoning ordinance beyond the already approved office use of the site. The purpose of the zone is to preserve the residential and agricultural character of this part of Millstone. That purpose is not threatened by the continued use of this building. as it has served an office function on a county highway frontage for over four decades. Substituting one form of licensed and recognized professional for another does not alter the physical presence of the use, does not extend its footprint, and does not introduce any new impact. The approval would not impair your current zone plan, and it would affirm the long-established land use pattern on the site.

Thank you, Allison. You're welcome. She's available for questions maybe on that aspect of her testimony as well.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, just one. So, Alison, is it your opinion, this kind of goes to, honestly, both the appeal and the use variance, if the applicant were to, a year, two years down the line, if they do get approved, decide that the business model's not working, they decide to change it a little bit, they do decide to bring in an MD or offer alternating I don't want to say as far as detox, but something that's not under the umbrella that we've spoken to tonight, that takes it a step further into the intensity of the treatment. Would that change the qualification of the use? Would they be required to come back here, or do you think those would still qualify under that professional office definition?

I think it would depend on the wording of any resolution of approval. it's likely if they, given the testimony we've given, if they were to introduce a significant medical aspect to the medical detox, they would have to come back. Okay.

Yeah. I would have to agree with that. In my opinion, if the services changed where they were going to administer different things, then I would think it would have to come back for an approval. I think that would have to be one of those conditions.

Well, I, We'll get to that. I mean, for my notes, I always write things down. I had notes of no medical treatment, no medical prescription of drugs, stuff like that. Medical treatment, that's not what I meant because you are getting medical treatment by the counselor, so that's not what I meant.

I got you. Right from your positive criteria, how can you support that? It's particularly suited, because I think there's a difference between particularly suited and particularly desirable, which was the question I asked earlier. I can see why it would be desirable, but how is this any different than an office building in the strip mall? Understanding it might be more private, but you can give the same level of care and services. It might be more desirable, but is it really more suited to grant an actual de-variance?

Given the needs of this applicant, they did state that that privacy is part of something they're looking for. This site is particularly suited to offering that, more so than a strip mall location.

So I have a question regarding the operations. So maybe it's a question for the... Rashad? Yeah. Come back up. All right. So you're treating a very specialized client. How do you prevent them, and tell us in a realistic way, from bringing drugs and alcohol to your site, because they're users, or driving under the influence through Millstone to your site? They're coming for counseling, right? Coming because they need help. Not everybody is coming not under the influence. Somebody could be coming under the influence. How do you prevent that from happening?

Well, I appreciate the question. The patient that we're servicing at this location, hasn't been under the influence in consecutive days.

But you know that they're like one drink or one drug away from the influence. Whether they have 30 days clean or 10 years clean, they're fighting that addiction every day. So how do you prevent somebody from coming to your facility under the influence or coming, driving through Millstone under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

I mean, to be fair, part of the reason our hours are our hours is to essentially hopefully prevent a lot of that is that we are using morning hours and we're using daytime function. You know, essentially people every day work nine to five, but The people that we're going after, they've committed to this new way of life. They've shown a desire to come, to be abstinent based, to come and complete a treatment program. You're asking me how... I'm not in charge. It's impossible what you're asking me.

It's impossible. Has that ever happened? I mean, you run multiple facilities.

We've been open for 13 months in a neighboring town. We've had zero issues. Our landlord came today to support us so clearly we have a good relationship with him. If there was any complaint, I highly doubt he would be sitting behind me. He has a lot of things he could be doing. He chose to come and support us.

If somebody were to show up under the influence, what would be the protocol?

If somebody showed up under the influence, A therapist would engage, we would probably get an emergency contact on the phone or on site and we would have a nearby hospital or EMT worker called and they would be brought to a residential one or three licensed facility.

If I may interject for a moment to piggyback on Steve's question comment. So if someone did show up, whether under the influence or had stuff with it, would that immediately render them expelled from the program and they would have to go somewhere else?

They would probably be discharged from the program, and I can definitely assure you that any staff member of mine is not giving somebody their keys under the influence and letting them drive down the street because our staff members are also members of this community so but of course you're not gonna of course you're gonna discourage them from getting back in a car and driving under the influence but they've already driven there on the

seeking help because they wouldn't be there if they weren't seeking help.

It's just very hypothetical, the question you're asking me.

It's also hypothetical that they'll come there completely.

I don't want to add anything more to the record.

That's just the way I see it.

I respect your opinion.

Mr. Lambros expresses, have you experienced that materializing in your 12 years of doing this?

To be fair, I won't even do a 12-year. I'll just do my 13th month here in the neighboring town of Manalapan, and we've had zero incidents like this happen.

But again, you've got broad experience. Is this a common event?

Not at this level of care, no. Not at this level? Unfortunately not. For a setting? Inua Detox, absolutely. They're coming. They used minutes before entering a detox. Not a question. I understand exactly what he's saying. But at this level, it is few and far between. And we, they're a voluntary basis. So they're not held by any court. They're not stipulated to us. They're choosing to come on their own accord. I can speak from my experience. If I was doing drugs, I'm not going to see my therapist today. And that's just, there's nothing that's tying them to show up. They're showing up because they want to seek and want to be better. They have multiple days, weeks, months sober. We're not getting them at that infant stage of new found sobriety. So it just, it's hard to believe. I understand that you're trying to create a point and I respect what you're saying and it obviously could happen, but it is highly unlikely.

Thank you. Sure. Sure. Thank you for that additional clarification because you just mentioned something that they come on a voluntary basis, not a requirement based on someone having to go see their, let's say parole officer.

Correct. We are not operating anything remotely close to that. That is correct.

Maybe this is semantics with the name, but the now open place called Freedom Recovery New Jersey and your Supreme Treatment Center LLC, is that they're two different companies? Are they all under the umbrella of one big company?

They are under the umbrella of a holding company, yes, that's correct.

Okay, so there's a holding, and then this site's going to be Supreme Treatment Center?

It's an own separate site, nothing to do. We have multiple locations across the country. None of them have anything to do with any one of the others.

Okay, they're just different names, different subsidiary corporations? Correct. All independently?

All independently. No staff, crossover, nothing like that. I have a simple question.

The site went out of business.

Correct, yes.

And you're the landlord there? Okay.

Across from Gus's Diner, is it in a strip mall? Is it in a shopping center there? Or is it a residential area?

That's a square building.

Isn't it a square building?

Yes, it's a square building. It's the building with the booth.

Hold on. We can't have people testifying. Time out, time out, time out, time out. We can't have people testifying from the audience.

Okay, I'm just asking. He's here. The landlord's here. He's going to testify. So I'm saying that it's on 33, obviously, correct?

That's correct. Okay. Nowhere near any residential.

So there's no seclusion there, so what is the purpose of them, why does it have to be so secluded now? If your members that are going there that need help, they're going into a populated area with stores all around,

Well, we have a stand-alone parking lot there. What was that? It's a stand-alone parking lot that we occupy there.

In Manalapan? Yeah. So where Romeo's is, in that strip mall, there's another building.

Okay, but still on Route 33, it's not secluded. They're saying that they need this site because of seclusion and people want privacy. That's not secluded by Gus's Diner at all. I'm just trying to understand why this site, That they're saying it needs to be secluded for the people that are coming there with the substance abuse. I get it, everybody needs help. But this is, Millstone's a residential area, very rural. It's two different things, where it is in Alabama and where we are, where that site is. It's on Route 33.

Yeah, I think he was just referring to the building type, that it's a building and then there's a parking area around it. That's what I think he's talking about.

But is that commercial there, or is it residential?

That is commercial, that one is commercial.

It's commercial, obviously, correct? It's not residential.

That's correct.

So there's a difference. I would just like to know, the VA said before, they testified that the people with the substance abuse want to have privacy. It ain't private there. It's in the open right there also. So what's the difference of this site?

Well, it would, to answer the question, well, not trees, to answer the question, If there was somebody that was more comfortable going to more of a secluded location, now we have that offering. What if it is a town official or a police officer here and he doesn't want to go to Route 33 at Gus's Diner and he knows he can go to a back entrance?

That's his circumstance because he created his property.

Well, that's just why we would want the two different offerings, that's all. That would just be the difference that it would just appeal to a different population or a different client.

And it doesn't, this site also backs up to other communities. There's developments right behind it. There's houses right there. People's properties. It's different. It's much different than the site of Manal.

It is definitely different. And I don't want to argue because I know that.

No, I'm not arguing. I'd just like to know the difference.

In my opinion... It is a heavily wooded area. I know some people are arguing that, but I've been there, and it is pushed off the road. It's its own parking lot, and it is backed up to woods. And there is woods that are completely surrounding it.

I've guessed it every day. I'm very familiar.

And if you look up the driveway, you see it.

It's blue.

You see the house, don't you?

It's not secluded with trees. You do see it.

But I'm saying on either side in the back, it's secluded. Okay.

I think for the board, I appreciate the line of questioning. We can't compare this site to the Manalapan site just in terms of your deliberation. I understand what you're talking about. Why is that not private in this list?

Right.

I just want to remind you guys, just make sure you're concentrating on the specifics of this property and not why is it not somewhere else. Just as a reminder.

I think... My recommendation is maybe open it up to the public and get some comments, and then we'll probably double back with our professionals as well just to get some additional feedback and comment. But I know we have a lot of people here that came out for this application, so I think at this time it might be a good juncture to open it up to hear what everybody else is thinking.

Okay, so members of the public, if you have any, as you heard my instructions before, you have the opportunity to ask any questions of the two witnesses testified or give us a statement. So if you want to come on up, I'm going to swear you in, and then you can do anything that I just said. Sir, please raise your right hand. You swear from the final testimony about to give us the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do. Please say your name with the record, spelling your last name, sir.

Newcomb, N-E-U-K-U-M. On behalf of Moran, we're domestic partners. We live on one site. where it's proposed.

Well, if I'm looking at the subject site, do you live to the left or the right?

We live off of Mineral Springs.

What's your address, sir?

5 Blacksmith Lane. 5 Blacksmith? Yes.

And what is your first name and surname?

James. Okay. So, there's a couple things that I just wrote some notes down, but just thinking in my head, one of the biggest problems I have, which we all have here in Milton right now, I have a question for Mr. Farrell. Is there single cars, or do they get busted when you have a group therapy, or is there always single cars? There will most likely be single cars. Okay. You made a statement because I can't tell you how many times I either witnessed or helped somebody come out of that parking lot and got into an accident. Has the township or has anybody... looked into any of the accident reports that have come out of that particular parking lot?

I'll tell you, me personally, no.

I have. Because I've helped three. And every time the road is closed from Mineral Springs to Payne Island, it's either an accident within that perimeter or somebody coming out of a parking lot, swerved, and hit somebody else. So I know we have no jurisdiction off of the county road. But the one thing with in and out, we were talking about the office, they were set, like you said, from 8 to 4.30. It was a single, maybe two, three employees. You have eight. You're going to be coming in, coming out, the patrons coming in, coming out. Fifty miles an hour, you have to stop. And it's not a clear path. It's a blind path because I lived right there. Coming out of that parking lot is almost insane to see. And first of all, I was almost in a couple accidents where somebody slammed on their brakes to get into that parking lot. I know the troopers would stay up there as well. But again, I'm looking more as a safety. I know that sounds, my brother was a heroin addict. I know all about it. So I appreciate what you do. But we were just talking about it as far as it's a residential area. And I know everyone has the right to do what they need to do, but there are facilities that are commercial that are private. And you said that we can't see the building. Basically, in the winter, I'll wave to you. The winter, yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, and it's not as secluded as you think it is. So, again, I understand it's a lot more seclusion than your Manalapan. I totally understand that. one thing that I don't understand is we were talking about Mr. Lembros was saying security wise an addict I'm sorry an addict once they go back is still an addict it's always until sobriety and his point was how could you tell if he did go back as he walks in in your 13 years have you ever had an issue that you needed security? No. Okay. In 13 years, you never needed security at all. Taking keys or... We called police. Okay. We are run by the state troopers. The police response is fantastic. But again, never happened. You said 13 months. 13 months is the honeymoon period. I'm not saying it might never happen, but you know, your EMS, then, again, if you have an issue with EMS, just like any other corporation or corporate around here, is something going to happen, you're going to call an EMS. The other question I have, do these people work? Or are they, because your schedule is a very, it's a weird, I know it's important, they might work nights, they might not work, but if you see them three, four times a week at 8 o'clock, most likely they're not working.

No, they are working.

Well, then...

They're on FMLA and short-term disability.

Okay, so then...

But they are working. We only accept private health insurance, so somebody they know is working. Yeah. Would you want us to clarify the roads?

Oh, stop, stop. No, you've got to look at it both ways. I mean, again, this is all new to us. I've lived there from the beginning. I'm one of the original members. Hold on.

Time out, time out, time out. You have to talk to us. I'm sorry. You have to talk to us.

Yes, I'm sorry.

Okay.

No, I'm an original resident in that area. And it's new to us. And it's like anybody else, once you hear a facility that, does what he does, in the back of our minds, we're thinking, okay, and everybody here, land value, you know, if we want to sell my house, I mean, as horrible as that is, they're going to do their research. Now, an office building, okay, I know it's horrible.

I understand.

But a rehab or an outpatient, I guess not an outpatient,

Is that something that people aren't that aware of and they would be afraid to maybe buy my house?

That's hypothetical. Yeah, it's hypothetical.

It's very hypothetical. Doing research on a lot of different things, which I have in the last couple days, most likely, yeah, they would prefer not to based on I have reports. That's here and there. The traffic I'm worried about because of the other things going on at 537. I can't get out of my block. That parking lot, I know it's a 25, but it's a very, very, very dangerous parking lot. So I don't know if you guys put that into consideration, too.

You know, with people stopping going up the hill, people stopping going up the hill, people stopping going up the hill. And this is going to be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

And I know it's, you know, that's going to be a lot more traffic for people, especially in those couple blocks that are right in front of them. So, I mean, we've had enough traffic on 537, and maybe that's not a reason for us not to want that, but it's, you know, that's my feeling, my feeling and some of the residents that we have. You know, it's just, it is what it is. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Anybody else? Come on up. Same thing, ma'am. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear from the following testimony about to give us the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Yes. Please state your name for the record. Spell out your last name, ma'am.

My name is Elizabeth Sauce. It's S-A-U-S-E. And your address, ma'am? 350 on the throat.

If I'm looking at the subject property, my...

Okay. Which makes it extremely visible. So, just had a couple questions, much like the other gentleman.

I know my, oh, sorry.

No problem. My question was who paid, which I know he had answered that it's private insurance and that these individuals work and potentially on FMLA. FMLA lasts for three months. Conceivably, if they're coming out of a 30-day program, they only have 60 days left for FMLA. Does that mean it's a constant influx of new people, where it's not just the same kind of people, it's just an influx all the time? I don't know which way to stand to face you.

Sean, why don't you come up and go next to your attorney. Allison, I think we're pretty much good with you. We might need you back. I guess the question, Sean, is what's your turnaround of patients? Forget about the insurance aspect. Are they the same patients that are only covered 30 days and so you're getting new people every 30 days or you're getting people that stay there for six months?

Yeah, we're getting people that stay for 90 days to six months. There's a lot of ways to extend FMLA in short-term disability, especially when it comes to any type of mental health. It's definitely not 30 days.

So I know you had mentioned that the individuals coming in, typically it's somebody that's completed potentially a 30-day program, and it's not somebody that's been in multiple programs. But if your intake procedure is to ask them what, you know, to prove that they've done something for 30 days that they're sober, how do you know that they haven't rehabbed 10 different times and relapsed?

Yeah, so we're going to go extensively on questions about the individual and what they've experienced. And then we are going to do an in-person at the site interview and intake to determine all of these factors.

And if there was long-term relapses, they would not be accepted as a client?

It depends on the sobriety that they're... presenting at that day, you know, if they've been sober for 90 days and they're feeling, you know, like stagnant and they need support, we will probably treat that patient. Yes.

And they, you mentioned that there's an initial screening before you bring them in. Is that initial screening done by somebody that works at this center or just somebody that works in the overall corporation company, whatever you want to say?

Yeah, they work for the admissions department that helps service all of the locations under the umbrella.

So then it's not somebody specific to that Millstone location?

Not the person on the phone, no.

Okay. And then not to kind of belabor a point, but I know to the gentleman's point that if somebody came in and was under the influence, you know, it was mentioned that they wouldn't be allowed to drive, but how exactly would you get their keys from them? You can't hold them there against their will. It's kidnapping, but how are you actually going to handle that situation?

So we present all this stuff to the state when we're getting our license and there'll be processes and procedures that we'll have to submit and they'll get approved by the state before we're licensed. But we have a patient of ours is we, there's a rapport building process. This isn't just like, we've never met this guy. He's coming in like a bat out of hell and he's wrecking the car down the street. Like this guy has been to us. We know his family. We do zoom meetings, family counseling. We consult with this individual. Like if they're under the influence and they're in our care, I have a very hard time believing that they're not going to turn over their keys. If they are under the influence, and they aren't turning over the keys, we were going to call the police.

I can understand your point, but also addiction is a lifelong struggle and people do relapse and there are issues. Now you mentioned that the facility itself has had a state license. Are there inspections? Like what are those inspections? How frequently do they happen?

they happen on like basically a 16 to 18th month process that the state comes out and does a site visit and does check and make sure that you're operating, operating compliantly. But I do understand all the concerns and everything you guys are saying. It's a lot of hypotheticals. I know that you're just trying to get to the granular level and try to understand what type of patient is coming here. We are operating a boutique mom and pop style treatment center with no more than 18 patients, half in the morning, half at night. The reason our model is successful is because we are doing the in-depth work with the individual. We are getting to the level that the other places don't go because we keep it small, because we are overstaffed. Our caseload is no more than five to seven patients to somebody who is highly licensed and skilled, master level clinician, the highest you can receive in the state of New Jersey. That is who we seek out. That is who we hire. Then we give them a support staff of a CADC, which is a, a clinical drug and alcohol counselor who supports the therapist with one patient, two people licensed in the state of New Jersey. When you work at this level, these are not patients that are like grinding against the grain. It's too in-depth therapy to come and relapse and show up and wreck the car. Like it's just... You would not make it in our program if that was the type of drug addict and alcoholic you were.

I think most people know somebody that struggled or know somebody that knows somebody that struggled. And if you really did have the silver bullet on how to fix that, I think that would be publicized everywhere and everybody would follow your model. So I understand just saying it's boutique, but it's also a company with multiple locations that is following. No, no, this room. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Anybody else from the public? He's not represented by himself, it's public. Sir, please raise your right hand. Swear firm in the final testimony about the gift of the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Yes. Please state your name for record and give us your address, sir.

Andy Kiley. I'm from Freehold, New Jersey. My office is 7 Broadway. I will be the property manager of the building. I work for Spiro Valado as the owner.

Okay, I'm going to stop you real quick. Is he your client?

He is not my client.

Okay, then you can proceed. If you were his client, he'd have to ask you questions. It's a whole league.

I just have to say on a human side, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. I've had the benefit of allotine as a teenager. My father was an electrical engineer. He wasn't a derelict. He was a very smart man. He was an addict. We did an intervention on my father when he was retired from AT&T, and he refused it because we had an education in counseling as a family. I was able to do an intervention on my father because he refused our help. We had a bed for him and a treatment center. This is not, you know, these are normal, educated people we're talking about here. And I know everybody's got a little bit of fear here, but This man, these men have just a great philosophy, and it's not about just making money. It's not about trying to inconvenience the neighborhood. You know, I get the courage in education. I called Friel County Police and said, my father's retired. He drinks at Morris Tavern every day. He's retired. He starts drinking at 12, because you're not an alcoholic if you drink at 12 in his generation. I said, please arrest him. He'll be driving past your police station. Here's his license number. He gets so drunk he can't even get out of the car at our homeless real township where we grew up, upper middle class. The next day they had him arrested. And it gave me the education as a family member. And my father, once the court came up for second DWI, he never had another drink in his whole life. I wish he had a location like this where he could get therapy and feel comfortable. But he was a dry drunk. He didn't drink anymore, but he's angry, bitter. And he died at 67 from lung cancer, and his esophagus from all those years of drinking had tumors up and down. My wife's brother, a young man, just died about five years ago. He had an opioid problem. He was a union carpenter in New York City. Smart, good guy. Never in trouble with the law. This is needed. It would be great for the community. This is personal to me, too. I will be looking after the building. My office has 24-hour day answering service if there's ever an issue. I understand. I already talked to the engineer when we're trying to get the lot ready. He wanted some trees, so I put some trees in. If you want more trees, we'll put more trees to make it more secluded. I personally think it is kind of secluded. Once you pull up there, it is surrounded by woods. Maybe you can see it a little bit from the road. We'll put more trees in if you like more trees. It's a dangerous road, period. But so is Route 33. I manage 140, Spiro owns the blue building, I manage 145 with 33 on the corner, man out by foot and ankle. We've had two car accidents where the car drove into the building in the last five years, pushed the wall into the building. I had to put boulders on the outside of the building so that would prevent it from the future happening again. As far as residential, they have massive amounts of residential homes catty-cornered to that other location. It isn't stopping people from buying property. and developing the community. It's a retirement community, I believe, to the Blue Bay. So I think it would be a service to the community. As a human being, I think it would be great for the town. And this is upper, upper class area, right? I'm sure there's a lot of addiction problems in these beautiful homes in this town. Trust me. I recognize problems in that. I've been educated. My mother was an Al-Anon for years. My father never got the help he needed. There's people that need this help that are good people, that are not strung out on the curb. It would be really great if you were to allow this to happen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kiley.

Anybody else in the public? Mr. Chair, you can close the public.

Okay. It's 9-16. We will close this portion to the public. Okay.

Counselor, I think we kind of talked this up for a good two hours. Do you have any closing statements, or can I instruct the board on what to do next? I am pleased to allow you to instruct the board.

Okay.

So this is, well, do you have any more?

Yes, I was just going to cut you off.

Sorry, Greg. Yes, I apologize.

I just realized what I skipped. I just wanted to go back to our professionals. We'll start with McKinley first. Sure. Just to kind of go over. your thoughts compared to what Ms. Allison had presented to get your feedback, you know, and to kind of review what you put in the report. So for the benefit of the public and the other board members that, you know, need some additional refreshers.

Sure. Yeah, this is clearly a very high emotion application. We don't get many like this in front of us. So there's been a lot that's discussed tonight that's relevant, some that's not relevant. One thing I'll start with saying is there was a discussion that Allison brought up that is in my memo about a previous reference to a New Jersey administrative code section for a drug treatment center. They said that that particular definition has been repealed. I'm not aware of that, but I would for the purpose of our I should say I'm not aware of the status, whether it exists or doesn't exist. I just know that it was reviewed as part of the zoning officer's decision. I think for the purpose of your decision tonight, I would not take that definition into account. She mentioned, and I do agree, that for this, we need to stay focused on the township's definitions, even though we have a lack of a definition here. Nothing that defines this. There's other guiding principles here in terms of master plan recommendations, Whether your literal interpretation of this use qualifies as a professional office space So I think that could the New Jersey administrative code reference could get kind of complicated and confusing So I would I would recommend not relying on that for your decision tonight You know when we talk about professional office space purely looking at this from a land use perspective, trying to take the emotion out of it, because that's planning, right? That's what we do, the land use and the zoning perspective. I would advise the board to take into account what you heard tonight in terms of whether or not The essence of what they're proposing tonight is different than an architect, a therapist. A minister is actually one of the permitted occupations that's listed as well. A lawyer, a planner is a listed occupation purely from what they're proposing from an operational standpoint. I think if the board is inclined to approve it, there are options for conditions that could be put on it. I think other points that you should... consider while reviewing this is what our master plan says. There are several points including supporting your residential zones that are existing residential neighborhoods. This is a slightly unique case because there was a previous application approved for a use variance for an office space. That is what we're comparing this to rather than if it was a permitted use as we talked about before and if it qualified under that case. So thinking about our master plan in terms of protection of residential neighborhoods and also encouragement of appropriate commercial development in appropriate locations. I think there was a lot of discussion tonight about, well, I should say not a lot, but I know there was discussion about traffic on this road. I'd say that the traffic, I understand, I've driven that road too, and it is a problem, and I know this driveway is windy. That's going to come up whether or not you have a lawyer, a doctor, a minister. or the applicant here tonight. So I think from a traffic perspective, I don't think there's any difference in the application tonight from just, again, a sheer traffic perspective than one of the other office uses that we're talking about tonight. So I'm going to keep going back to whether or not it can qualify, if we're looking at the appeal, under the professional... office definition, which I think you should, again, because the resolution just says office, I would refer back to the professional office since we don't have any other guidance from the ordinance or from the master plan. So just to read it again for you just so it's fresh. It is in my memo, and Allison read it earlier. Professional office use is the office of a member of a recognized profession, including the offices of doctors, ministers, architects, professional engineers, planners, lawyers, real estate brokers, and such similar occupations. She is right. There's another reference to, quote, other office in another definition of the ordinance, but the ordinance doesn't define what an other office might be. So it's not exactly helpful in that perspective. We do not have a definition for outpatient counseling center. We do not have a definition for drug treatment center. I would proffer that this is not a drug treatment center as they're not administering any medicine. So I don't think this would be qualified under that. That's my guidance tonight. I think it's hard to not let emotion come into these decisions, but I would, to the best of your ability, try to keep that part out of it.

Just one quick question just for maybe some additional clarification. With the pre-existing non-conforming use, was it just, quote, office space, and now we're looking to do it as a professional office? Or is it pretty much the same?

I'll answer that. The resolution says office use. Okay. And if I recall the testimony back in 12 or 13 when it was, it was more like, It was a previous law office, and it might have been something else other than that. But it was an office, whether it's called professional or not, it was an office use. It wasn't a professional office use. It was an office use, but an office use doesn't mean it's not a professional use, okay? I think for that question, you have to look at, since it's a pre-existing, is the change of impact, because it's a residential use, okay? That's kind of like, it's a little different type of view. Like if I have an office use and a pre-existing non-conforming use, and then I put retail in it, well, I could say, well, it's commercial to commercial. But the fact is that, and I'm using an example, retail is more impactful to the surrounding area than an office use. That's nine to five. A retail could be seven days a week, longer hours. So I think that's the different issue when we get to the appeal issue.

Yeah, I would agree. And I wasn't here in 2012, so I wanted to defer to Greg's memory.

I think I was here. Mr. Lampros was here.

I was here. All right, Mr. Chair, if... Well, go ahead, Steve.

I do have one question. Does anybody know what the previous, what that office was that was there?

There's a sign on Google Street Maps that's some kind of construction company.

I don't know if that's what... After Superstorm Sandy, I think, was rented out what's called stormers that came into the area to do storm work. So there was roofing trucks back there. There was all kinds of ladders and things going on. Interesting. Yes.

All right, so... Where we are with the application, we have two things.

Mr. Chairman, did you want?

Just a general question because there was some concern about the volume of ingress and egress out of it. Is there anything we need to do or consider for maybe additional line of sight, maybe an additional shoulder to get in and out of the property?

And my recommendation was because they specifically submitted just for the use. They did not submit a site plan. So my only recommendation is that the board was willing to, it was favorable approving this. I'd recommend they file a site plan. They did Ted testimony. I mentioned things like parking, lighting and building access. They just, they covered the parking. I think lighting was probably covered because of their hours of operation from 830 to 430. But I think, you know, parking access and accessibility, I think they, I would recommend you still make them come out of site plan. For a site plan approval? Yes, so we can analyze all those.

And then would it be beneficial for any additional landscape screening or maybe potentially even fencing?

Well, I think that would be a site plan issue.

Yeah, I know it's a site plan issue. Right, yes.

But, yeah, let's deal with that when it comes to a site plan.

Those are my questions, comments, and concerns for...

So if you went down that path, it would be like a bifurcated application.

Well, it also doesn't, yeah, understand. All right, so where we're at now is, so the first thing is it's an appeal of the Zoning Office of Determination. Zoning Office determined that it's not consistent with the previous approved, quote, unquote, office use. So the issue for the board is whether, The zoning office was correct based on the testimony you heard and what I've discussed before and what your planner discussed, whether it is, I use a very non-legal term, same or similar than what was there existing, okay? do have an or we have a resolution that says office use we've we knew what type of office was you heard the detailed testimony of the applicant of what they're proposing there so the first question is um to the board do they feel that uh the zone offers was correct in determining that it is a not the same as the previous non-conforming use and its uh more impactful thus it's not the same as before because non-conforming uses are are limited in scope uh as i gave the description about commercial you know law office to a retail establishment so that's the first question um the board uh grants that uh i would whoever makes that motion would say uh motion to to uh reverse that determination with basically the conditions that the applicant testified that the fact that the applicant testified that the use It doesn't provide any medication, no medication stored, no medication surrendered, no doctors on service, no overnight stays. And I have a little pet peeve of, and I know Sean says we're not doing that, but no distribution of any needles or any other drugs. paraphernalia, and I say that not because I've dealt with it in other towns, it has nothing to do with you. Thank you, Greg. It has nothing to do with you, about facilities that kind of morph into not what you're trying to do, but make it safer to do drugs. I know that's not you, that's kind of a me thing to put in there. And that you would say that they were required to come in for site plan approval. uh if that motion that is a majority motion uh if it's granted they'd have to come back uh for a site plan approval if the board and then ends the case if the board denies denies it for whatever reasons as i indicated motion to deny it's a motion to deny again that's a majority vote if it's a denial we then go to step two the applicant has requested In the alternative, if you determine that the zoning officer was correct in their determination, so the vote to, I'll call it the vote to affirm is like a denial for the applicant. You then get into the use variance, and then I would consider that more like a bifurcated use variance application where you would have to determine But the applicant has satisfied the positive and negative criteria for a use variance as Ms. Coffin has testified, as the board heard numerous times. Again, I would think that if someone thought that was favorable, they would have the same type of conditions as identified before in affirming the zoning officer's determination and requiring site plan approval. That is a use variance that requires five majority votes to get affirmed. If there is an affirmation of zoning officer's determination and a motion to deny, Then the application is over and then we proceed. Then there's nothing else for the board. Does the board have any questions of how this all plays out and what you're being requested to do?

Yes. The first question is?

Affirmation of the zoning officer or reversal of the zoning officer. So the board could discuss it. can make a motion. I know the board has commented very thoroughly over the last two hours. So I know a lot of their comments are in the record. So, Mr. Chair, I leave it to you, and I'll just start counting.

Okay. So if we affirm the zoning, we then go to D variants? Correct. Okay. And then we can vote on whether we'll approve the D1 use variants? Secondarily. Secondarily.

Right. And you could... You could affirm the zoning officer but grant the use variance. They're independent determinations. They're completely independent.

Mr. Bell, may I ask for a clarification? Did you say that if they deny the zoning officer's...

Reverse. Best term is reverse the zoning officer's determination.

If they reverse the zoning officer's determination, are you... are they still required to go to site plan?

Yes, yes. The vote would be that it is same and similar. However, based on the conditions that they've indicated, same or similar, and based on the engineer's comments, they would still require for a site plan approval.

Okay. Well, I think I stated it earlier that I think overall, in general, based on the application on the surface, you know, for his denial, I think was acceptable. So I'm not looking to overturn or reverse his decision. So in my opinion, I would say let's go for the D1 use variance as the approval. Did I say that correctly?

Well, there's two, and there's also two separate standards. All right, so we have three, four, five, six, we have seven voting members. Okay, we have eight boards, only seven could vote. Okay, so on the affirmation, you only need four in favor. So if four people say, I want to affirm it, the zoning office determination, because you want to grant them a use variance, right, four is not going to carry the day for the second one. So they're separate and distinct. I would not, I would only focus in now, forget about the devarience, and your only question right now before you, do you affirm the zoning office determination? or you reverse the zoning officer's determination. That's the only thing you should be afraid of. Don't worry about the secondary use aspect. That is separate and distinct, and it's a different standard too, so it's completely different. Got it. So step one is...

So I'll start it off if you want. Okay. Try to do this calmly, without emotion. So you've heard me say this in the past, and I'll say it again. You know, we have a great responsibility here, you know. We have great authority and with that comes great responsibility. You know, we have a lot of applications here from people who want to do good things and some who don't. But the one thing that I always remember, for me anyway, is that I want to do what I can to help protect the town, protect the residents, protect the zoning and usually when there's residents in the in the audience I always have to consider them and give great deference to what they see what they state on the record not so much but I know it means a lot to them I also know that our code enforcement officer is a professional works for our town He wouldn't be there doing what he's doing if he wasn't good at what he does. And he reviews plans regularly and he makes a determination based on the information that he's been given and he applies the codes and our regulations accordingly. In this case, he's been challenged. And I'm not certain that I want to be in the business of overturning our code enforcement's decision. So I'm going to offer up a motion to deny the applicant, if I'm saying this correctly, and uphold the code enforcement's decision to deny the application. Yes. Or to deny, yes, to deny the application.

So that's my motion. So motion to affirm the zone of determinations on the table. We need a second to proceed on that motion.

I'll second that.

So let me rephrase this. A yes is to affirm the zoning officer. No is not to reverse. No. Yes is to affirm. No is to reverse.

I'm going to say yes.

Yes to affirm.

Mr. Appiah? Yes.

Yes to affirm.

Mr. Cadigan?

Yes. Yes to affirm. Mr. Carr? Yes to affirm.

Mr. Lambros?

Yes.

Mr. Sinha?

No.

And Mr. Borghese?

Yes. Okay, so the application to affirm the zoning officer has carried. We now proceed to level two. So now this is the motion, the application for a use variance aspect. Use variance for a testimony of Ms. Coffin and the comments from our professionals and the public. So we need a motion on that. So we need a motion to grant the use variance. With the conditions, as I noted, including requiring them to go into a site plan or a motion to deny.

I make a motion. Go ahead. To approve.

With the conditions that... With the conditions. Okay.

So I have a question. The way I proposed my motion was to...

Yes. Your motion was to affirm the zoning officer's determination. Correct. So the zoning officer said, It is not consistent. It's not consistent with the prior approval. Therefore, it's not a permitted use on the site. We're at the point now where they're saying is, okay, we're not a permitted use on the site because you just affirmed that. Now I want a use variance. And we have a motion to approve the use variance with the conditions. I assume with the conditions I indicated and confusing the site plans. Now we need a second on that use variance. I'll second it. So roll call on this, and again, yes is to grant the use variance with the conditions as noted, no is to deny the use variance.

Karen Lawson? Yes. Mr. Appiah? Yes. Mr. Cattigan? Yes. Mr. Ferrara? Yes. Mr. Lambros? No. Mr. Sinha? Yes. Mr. Borghese? No.

Application carries 5-2. I'll draft the appropriate resolution. and you'll have to proceed with the site plan so you can get the ball rolling. Thank you, everybody, for your time and your consideration. Appreciate it. Motion to go home.

I make a motion. I make a motion, 938.