Planning Board Meetings - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. On behalf of the members of the Sparta Planning Board and our professionals, I'd like to welcome you to tonight's meeting of the Sparta Township Planning Board. This meeting is being held on May 7th, uh, 2025 at the Sparta Township Municipal Building located at 65 Main Street, Sparta. Proceedings of the meetings are being livereamed on YouTube at www.youtube.com at Sparta Towntw. The time is now 7:02 and the meeting is called to order. Please note that no new business will be conducted after 9:30 p.m. and the meeting will end at 10 p.m. Please stand and join the board to salute our nation's flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Raisha, would you do a roll call, please? Sure. Janette Burke. Ernie Ragstead here. Ryan Zimmerman here. Ronda Day here. Chairwoman Joan Ferman here. Councilman Mark Scott here. Uh Robert Blekeley here. Vice Chairman Rob Robert Otto here. Celeste Luciano and Christine Dumbar here. Okay, thank you. The first thing we have on the agenda is the approval of the minutes. We have three minutes to approve. The first is from January 15th. Would somebody like to make a motion to approve the minutes? I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of January 15, 2025. Thank you. A second, please. I'll second the motion. All right. Any discussion? All right. Well, I actually have a few things. um not many, but at

the bottom of the first page when it uh speaks to uh approving the dates for 2025 for the meetings, it refers to January 7th reorganization meeting. I would just like to put 2026 in there to clarify that it's January 7th, 2026. at the end of the first page says the meetings are held on the first and third Wednesday of each month at 7 o'clock. The planning board will have a January 7th reorganization meeting only if the town council blah blah blah. So I just wanted to put in 2026 there because the rest says that it's 2025 dates with the next page too where you see January 21st. Yes. Okay. And then on page two, right after it references January 21st and our motion, there is another sentence in there. It's a straggler. It says, "A motion was made by Celeste Celeste Luciano to designate the official." Um, and that was really referring to page one when there was a motion to approve the official newspaper. So, it's a straggler sentence that just should be struck out. It's already referenced on page one. Okay. And then the last thing I have is on page three. Um, it says that I suggested a five minute break and then I stated there would be a 30-day termination clause. Just reverse those two sentences because the 30-day termination clause uh came before our break. Minor changes. So, if we could approve with those changes. A motion to amend. A motion to approve with those changes. Second that. Okay. Roll call, please.

Robert Blekeley, yes. Janette Burke, Ron Day, yes. Celeste Luciano, Ernie Ragstead, yes. Councilman Mark Scott, yes. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Christine Dunar. Yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. Chairwoman Joan Furman. Yes. All right. The next are the minutes for April 2nd, 2025. Um, is there a motion to approve these minutes? Did we get those? Did we receive those? Not the one that's missing. I'm sorry. I got it mixed up. December 18th. December 18th. Right. The um, you're right. The April 2nd one was not ready. Um, so it's December 18th. there. Motion to approve December 18th. A motion to approve the December 18th, 2024 minutes. I'll second. Okay. Thank you. Um I think the correction I had in that one was just a misspelling of Jenny Derek's name. I don't I don't remember what page it is, but I did note that there was a misspelling and that was it. So, if we could uh approve it based on that change. Motion to amend the approval with the correction of Jenny Derek's name spelled correctly. Okay, I'll second. Thank you. Um, in a roll call on that, please. Robert Blekeley. I wasn't here, so I shouldn't be going. Oh, no. That's right. Ron Day. Yes. Ernie Ragstat. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Oh, I'm sorry. He wasn't here. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Christine Dunar, yes. Chairwoman Joan Ferman, yes. Okay, thank you. Motion passes. All right, we're on to the public hearings and um I am going to switch up the order here because there is a representative from Rammes and Company who would like

to address us. Yes, thanks Madam Chair. Uh Michael Svaji on behalf of the applicant. Um, I just wanted to let you know late this afternoon the uh applicant has decided to withdraw the application. The restaurant tenant, which is really the one driving it because of the increased parking that comes with a restaurant, uh, is no longer interested in the space. So, we're going to uh, you know, try to find two retail tenants that would be consistent with what the approval was from this board in 2013. So that obiates the need for the continued public hearing. So I would normally just send a letter in, but it was so late in the afternoon, I didn't want to leave you guys hanging and wonder what was going on. So we felt that it was be uh you know a courtesy to come here and let you know. I will follow up with a letter formally withdrawing it tomorrow. But uh in the meantime, if you guys were wondering what happened to us, so so that's what we will do. Okay. do appreciate you coming out for that. Um I do want to state since you're putting this on the record, I also want to put some things on the record um that have come to light during this investigation and that is the fact that there is a business downstairs and that parking was never accounted for. So that when you do come back uh we ask that you do keep that in mind. There's a letter from Madison Hooker of Shank Price which states that there is a complete delivery service down there and um so none of that gross leasable space was included in the parking. Um I did go in and speak to the person in charge. They told me there were eight to employees at any given time. I had counted seven that day in the pharmacy and uh they said during a shift change the max is 10. But when you go out and count the cars in the back that day there were 19. the week

before there were 21. So there's definitely a business down there. So we just can't ignore that even as you're going forward because that did come to light and we as I had given the board the benefit of the correspondence exchange the pharmacy feels differently and as I said to the chair before the meeting I don't necessarily disagree. Uh, however, I think if if there's an enforcement issue, it would probably be wise for the township to perhaps think about letting the zoning officer know and and that person take the appropriate action because uh we've gotten nowhere from it. They believe that the storage of the inventory downstairs is just part of the business and uh they can continue with that. But um when you read the 2013 resolution, it seemed to think was storage. I mean, nobody had delivery services back then. So I think the idea was you're going to store it and that won't necessarily give rise to more employees needed. And I think that's why the board did it in 2013. So, um, you know, whatever whatever becomes of that, that's up to the township, but, um, you know, we we understand it and, you know, so far we've gotten nowhere with that. Yeah. We're just putting it on the record and we're going to follow up on that and I'd just like to open it up to the other board members if they have anything to say. I appreciate your comments. We certainly do need a a zoning officer. Oh, you don't have one? We have, but we need more. Oh, I appreciate you coming in here and advising us. Thank you very much. No, no, no problem. No, we do appreciate it. And we wish you luck with finding uh the tenants that you're looking for. It was great. Great. You

know, it's a great building. So, right now, just to clarify, there are no other tenants. It's just the pharmacy. There's no other tenants there. There was what the yoga studio. Yeah. Come on. You could you my name is Camel Yin. One minute. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? Yes, I do. Is it your name? Uh Cameas. Uh there is a possible application. I I was away in California for the past three months and uh there's a possibility of another tenant that is going to occupy the space. Uh I told them that they have to deal with the town directly. As far as I know, that's okay. So nothing yet because there's been a lot on social media, people complaining about some tenant losing a lot of money as a result of the planning board not taking action. And yet, you know, we've given you every opportunity. And I specifically asked at the last meeting if there was another tenant and the answer was no. And then a couple days later, all of this blew up on social media again. So, I just for the record, I'm putting it out there. There's no tenant. Yes. And again, I was in California for the past three, maybe three and a half months, but I'm back and I will make sure that everything is in order and according to the township, you know, ordinance and whatever they want. Okay. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you guys. We appreciate it. Take care. Good luck. Thank you. I also just I I failed to mention um our regular attorney Ken Porro is not here. A representative from Brock Iller is here, one of his associates, Lindseay Camron. So we welcome her. All right. Next, we'd like to welcome uh Sussex County Technical School for their

capital improvement plan about a wastewater treatment plant. Hello. Is it okay? Okay. I have two boards and plus another two. Can bring them up. Take your time. So, last time you guys wanted us to angle the boards so that the camera could see it. Is that something we need to do? Yeah, you could do it over over there so everyone could see. We've moved our planner so she can actually see. Okay. I just ask as you speak if you know once you introduce yourself if you could please use the microphones for the people that um are listening to this. Okay. It's okay if we stand up and just share the the microphone. Whatever you're comfortable with. Okay, we'll get started. Okay. Um, first of all, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to let us present before the planning board. U, we've been preparing for this project for almost two years. And then once I get into the history, you'll see that the project has been ongoing for a long time. And then we finally got a the good set of team members including the client and we're hoping we can keep moving forward with the replacement of the wastewater treatment. So my name is Lionel Kamacho. I'm a licensed architect recognized by the state of New Jersey for the past five years and then I'll just pass along

and introduce my peers. Uh good evening board. Uh so legal name is Giovanni Manilio from Mantara Design. We're the civil uh lead on the project. Um I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. Been licensed for the past 16 years. Um I believe I testify in front of this board and the zoning board recently. Uh good evening everyone. Steve Dennady, excuse me. Steve Denady, CP Engineers. Uh we are the uh wastewater consultant on the project. I've been a licensed engineer for more than I can count 25 30 years now. I just like to ask our attorney if uh it's very well we'll do it. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? I do. I do. We accept their credentials. Yeah. Um, I will also take a minute just to introduce the client, the Sussex County Technical School Board of Education. Uh, they're in the forum today. Uh, we have Jenny and we also have the head of building and grounds with us, Rod Rod Mosner. Um, okay. So, in terms of the process, I just want to go a little bit into the overview. Um, so I was talking about the project having a long history. So the wastewater treatment plant that's actually on site has it's original to the building. So it hasn't been really upgraded in the past let's say 60 plus years. I know that from the past 20 years uh an effort was put out there to try to look into the options to see what the next step is to keep him running for the future. So there were multiple reports in the past seeing if we can remediate it. do we have to replace? And then um following those reports, the best recommendation is just to replace it. Um due to money being an issue like

all of the projects, um we are going to look into doing this in possibly two phases. The first phase would be what you see on the boards, which is the actual pump room that houses a lot of the mechanical blowers for the actual wastewater treatment. And then adjacent to it are these two field tanks right in front of it that actually process a lot of the sewage and release into the fe leech fields. Um the second major phase will come at a separate time. We'll do a different planning board presentation for that and that will consist of the the the leech fields that are beyond on the far north. So towards that region. Yep. Um in terms of phasing timeline, so one of the biggest challenge right now is also lead items. Um the wastewater treatment plant is very specific and it also um looks into plus or minus 28 to 30 weeks just to get the materials on site. Outside of that, we also have to go through the D process. So realistically, one of the questions that was mentioned was when will the project start? We're looking at spring 2026 at least to start the excavation and it will run into 2026 summer. And then because the school uses the facility throughout the school and into the summer, uh we'll have the existing treatment plant active while we build the new one and then we'll do the switch over in fall 2026. Um the earliest we'll probably go out to bid is in no this coming November and that's after we receive our approvals from D and also we're working through the funding

sources. In terms of the funding sources um we were very proactive to making sure that not just the Sparta but also the state of New Jersey helps um help pay with the cost. So we submitted to the department of education and we did ask for depth service aid from the state of New Jersey and we did receive confirmation for that uh on the 25th of April. So where they will cover 40% of the cost uh we're looking at uh 4 to 5 million uh dollar project for the first FA for the for the entire phase the phase one and phase two. So, but the bulk of it will be through phase one and the state of New Jersey will be assisting the county in covering 40% of the cost. In terms of architecture, um we also we're very conscious of the budget. So, we're not trying to make the the most we're not trying to burn the fee. So, if you look at the construction, um it does increase in footprint from the existing pump that we're replacing, but that's because we're trying to futureproof the pump house. So, right now, we're looking at a 25x 25 footprint, but we have this accommodating for future space for future tie-in so we can keep upgrading the new system. Uh in example, we have the chemical feed station that we won't be able to do as part of phase one, but we are allocating the space for it so that in the future when more funding becomes available, we don't have to tear down the pump the pump room again. In terms of construction, we're going with very simple construction. We're going with split CMU. uh try to keep the material pallet to a minimum but also trying to blend into the adjacent um uh buildings.

Um, I do want to point out that also since we are um in in the site, there's a good chance that we are trying our best to keep these two trees, but I know logistically sometimes having trees near the plant might not be the best scenario because of the the city's uh leaves and all that stuff. So, we are very conscious of the trees and trying to keep them, but once we get into construction, they might not align to perfect with where the plan is. Um, okay. Maybe at this moment, I'll I'll open it up to the board if you guys have any questions and then maybe we can go to the town attorney to see or the town engineer to see if there's any questions. Thank you. I'd actually like to start with the town engineer. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, just referring for the record to the report we prepared dated May 2nd, 2025. Uh, I understand this is the project for the school. I just brought up a few items that I thought would be of interest to the board and possibly any public and if you could address them as I go over them. Uh, looking on page two of the report, you did indicate what the time frame was as far as the construction uh, of the facility. Uh, with regards to any lighting, I did see on the architectural plans a safety light over the entrance door. Were there any other lights to illuminate the area for work at night if there was some repair required or that was the only light? Uh, at this moment that is the only light. Uh, but we can add more for emergency repairs. As far as being operational, we do want to put it on a on and off switch and we do want to keep it off for most of the time. It would only be when the operator goes into the facility and he needs it. And also, let's say in the case of emergency, something needs to happen at night, you can turn that light on. Sure, that's fine. I just wanted the board to

know because I know lighting issues are a concern of the board and less light is less is more. Yeah. Yes. And and in this case, we just want to make it manually operated so that it gets operated less. No problem. I do point out that Sparta does have a storm water uh ordinance as far as anything greater impervious coverage over 500 square ft, but based on my rough scaling, I believe with removal of some of the other structures that are in that general compound area, you're less than the 500 square ft. So, storm water isn't an issue that way. Yep, that that that is correct. There is a a slight increase in impervious for this phase of the project. Uh but since I've been involved for the past three years on this third phase, I I think the actual impervious decreased by about 10,000 square feet with the dome removal um and the additions to the to the building. So overall for the project, there's a significant decrease. Then with regards to utilities and the architectural plans, two things. Uh I know the existing facility already has power out there to run the existing plant. Uh is that existing power supplying the existing and also the proposed building is that supplemented with emergency power from the school's overall generator? Yes, that is um and then again to save cost and keep the cost to a minimum. We did do an exercise within MEP engineer to make sure that the capacity is there. So again, we didn't want to just put in a new gen generator when we have what we need on site. Okay. So no emergency generator. And the other thing on the architectural plans, u it does show in the sections and I think on the exhibit you've got on the left as I'm looking at it, there's a ventilation system coming through the roof. Is that running 247 or is that just on an asneeded basis? It would be as needed basis. And same thing going back to the budget constraints. We

didn't want to just add a condenser and AC. In this case, what happens with the operation is there's u one individual that goes in there um not on a daily basis, but then it would be just to accommodate him if it's a if it's there if he's there during the summer and he just needs an exhaust fan to or passive cooling for some reason. Okay. And while we're on fan in the building, uh can you provide any comments or testimony regarding any noise or odor emission from the plant? So no uh no noise. Uh the sorry just that noise is that yeah uh the blowers the only noise making apparatus are the blowers which are inside the building and they're also very low noise blowers to start with. So you can actually be in the building and speak while the blowers are running and so it's very low noise. Um odor there should be no odors that if when if the plant run correctly you know there are no odor issues as long as aation is working and everything else. Right. And as far as I did notice the one area and the architect just mentioned it on the on the architectural floor plan, there's a label for future uh chemical feed area in the future. What kind of chemicals are you talking about? And just maybe elaborate. Yeah. And just to clarify what Lionel said, that is future for future treatment in some respect. the EP has a way of always increasing um discharge limits or or adding discharge limits. So, we're not sure what's happening. There's no plan for chemicals at the moment, but if a future limit required, we might add a chemical. And it's normally something like a um a coagulant chemical like a feric chloride, which is just a salt.

So, it's a very innocuous chemical just to help the the flock um condense and be able to be filtered out. So, so it's a future space if and when needed. Yes, it it might end up being a treatment unit andor chemicals, but yeah, there's there's no plan for any chemicals or anything like that coming up. Okay. Then under miscellaneous, I just listed what I thought were the additional approvals that you'd have to get as part of the package. And what we always recommend is uh if the board approves the application that ultimately if it's constructed, just provide an asbuilt plan. That's my report, Madam Chair. Thank you. Lindsay, do you have anything? No. No comments for planning purposes. Thank you. Attorney, anything? No. Members of the board. Ron. Um, yeah. So, if you could um so I guess first of all, are these two um drawings are they were they provided to us before or is this the first time we're seeing them tonight? I didn't see them in the package. No, this the first time you're seeing it. Okay. Okay. So, we should probably add those as as exhibits. I can send uh Dory the digital copies. Can you could you send an electronic copy and that way they could post it to the file? Yep, that's fine. You okay with that? I'm sorry. What? They'll send you electronic copies of this so that way you could add the these two exhibits to the file. Yes. And also um we uh have a electronic file on the Google Drive. Yes. Yeah. And so so you can post it there. Yes. It's all in there already. Well, not this. These these are new. Oh, these. No, those. Okay. No, the other ones whatever they sent we have in a Google Drive. Y and then to clarify what you guys saw in terms of the review set is identical to the design. The only new images would be kind of like the perspective three-dimensional views. To Ron's point then, should we be marking these like exhibit something

one, something two? A1 and A2. That's Yeah. Is this This is the first time They're coming with these. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that that would be good. A1 and A2. And then the other another question I had. So you mentioned the these materials are different than the the other buildings. Um can you elaborate a little bit on that? They're we're trying to limit the material pallet. So meaning we don't want to do any metal paneling if we don't have to. Um we are mimicking the existing construction throughout the school campus. So if you start walking around the main campuses, you start to see that a lot of the util utilitarian spaces tend to have a split face CMU blocking. And then towards the school area classroom areas, they have long narrow brick. And then the more offices that are standalone, in this case the DOE building, which is right here, has more of a residential look. So the design for the pump room actually mimics the vinyl sighting on the gable end with the shingle construction, but the actual blocking is a reference to the utility utilitarian spaces throughout the school. Thank you. Um, I guess my last question was, um, I'm not sure that the, uh, police department, fire department commented on this. I don't know if they have to or not. Is there an access road for them to We we I missed that. If I could, um, they did, at least the police department had no additional comments and as they saw that it doesn't impede any of the traffic area. How

about the fire department? Would they be commenting on this? I don't believe you know. So, so could we add a maybe something that says that subject to the review or or I I believe in my report on the end I included Sparta Township construction official and I believe his fire subcode official will look at the building as well. Thank you. And I will just say that when I did go out to the site to inspect it, basically there there was no direct drive right now to the existing plant. You had to walk across the grass. Bless you. But the but the parking lot is where you basically park and it's not that far from the parking lot. Okay. Thank you. That's it. Thank you. I think you also asked in there whether it needed to be wider to accommodate. Was that Am I getting something mixed up? But if the access road had to be wider to accommodate a fire truck. Was that in your report? I don't believe so. I I I don't I read it somewhere. Yeah. Uh what I would anticipate, God forbid, if there was a fire in the plant. Uh my assumption is and is subject to the fire department reviewing it that they'd probably park their emergency equipment in the parking lot because they wouldn't want to get too close to the plant if it was, god forbid, on fire and fight it that way. It's it's literally not that far. Thank you. Thank you. I I stopped up there uh the other day. Very impressive facility. I was wondering how many students attend this at at the peak. I if I would say it's plus or minus 600. Um but I would have to double check with uh Jenny 735. We I mean we do know that it

process almost 18,000 gallons. So which is typical That's it. That's it. I'm sorry. I'm almost set. Thank you. Um I just just curious, you're you're doing this with future proofing in mind. Uh are you filtering out PAS with what you're putting in? Is that all on your radar or no? Okay. Uh and then for the trees that may succumb to the construction or maybe uh you know not located how you'd want, would you consider replacing uh with any kind of vegetation? Um, I know we are obviously regrading and then back filling with clean and then doing restoring the long areas of the former tanks. But as far as the trees, I mean, at this point, the goal is to keep them, but we won't know exactly once we get into construction. Sometimes when we start digging, things shift a foot here, two feet there. Um, and I know that they're pretty close. And I know for sure the leaves are going to be an is a maintenance issue. Okay. Is there um I'm just thinking about uh shielding and erosion control stuff like that. So um because I know you're going with the that industrial look, the split CMU. Um the only other thing with that, so uh lighting was brought up. Um have you considered lighting temperature? Have you determined what you're using? Uh in the drawing it looked like you might be using wallpack lights. Um, we don't have a preference. If there's something the town would like to see, if it's ever used at night, if it's a warmer tone temperature, then I think that's a more appropriate than the cool high higher degree light. Okay. Yeah. I' I'd like to see like maybe closer to 3,000 Kelvin is

kind of what we're asking for. No, I think that's it. It makes it's I I I think it'll look better. And then um you know if if as drawn as wallpack lights. I mean I don't know if Dave wants to weigh in here. I think I heard that they kind of discouraged that. However, I do recognize with the crack CMU that you're looking for more of a utilitarian look. So maybe in this case they're more appropriate. My understanding of the lightning is testified to was it's just basically on if and when needed basis. But if addition to the 3000 Kelvin for the less bright light, uh if they could have a downward-facing fixture versus a wall pack. Okay, understood. Yeah, it was just I I quickly went through uh the drawing and I saw in the legend a little uh a little icon, a little u symbol uh of a light and it looked like a wallpack light. And if if we could do like 90° to the building, warmer light is kind of what we're going for. Sounds good. Hi, thank you. So, um I just need a little ed education. Um so, you're you said that the current um treatment plant is 6 years old. Close to that. I don't know the exact age, but it's close to 60 plus years. Mhm. And the system that's there, is that a septic field which is similar to what you were you will be installing? Yeah, the the the treatment the new treatment system will be almost identical to the existing one. It's called an activated sludge treatment plant. So it there's there's a treatment system before it gets discharged to the ground. The new system is very similar. It's the most common type of treatment plant for this application. Okay. So,

will this handle a greater capacity in the future? This particular uh treatment plant you have what 750 students there now. Um so, or or is it going to be uh is it modeled to handle the same? Yeah, it's being designed for the same capacity and it winds up school plants just the way D looks at them are always overd designed. So this plant is is has a design capacity of 18,000 gallons a day only sees about 4,000 gallons a day. So there is capacity available if the pool is to expand, but if it stays at the same size, it'll still be at that 4,000 and the plan is the same size. It's per D. Okay. So again, education here. Um, so this improvement will be better at removing what specific pollutants? I was a little disappointed to hear that POS wouldn't be addressed, but that's probably very special. Yeah. Um but but but so what's it going to do a better job of this new new system? It's going to removes uh ammonia uh BOD TSS ammonia, all the the the regular requirements. Right now, PAS, we're not disregarding that. It's not a requirement on the wastewater side. It's only a requirement on the water side. uh at some point it may become requirement on the wastewater side. This is a discharge to groundwater. So it's POS would first hit discharge to surface water plants where they discharges to a river that could be a water source. Um so and that's why we have future plans but the plan is designed to meet all expected all current and expected future discharge requirements. you know, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to the school to pay for um removing more than is required by D under under current and

expected future permits. So, does it do a better job of removing those pollutants than the 60-year-old? Absolutely. Yes. Treatment plan. Yeah. Well, by it's it's got a it's a higher level of of treatment and it's also by virtue of the fact it's due and the other plan is sort of limping along now. This is going to be a much better overall treatment. That's great. Do you have any type of percentage of of how what would be the percentage improvement for for in general for the removal of the pollutants? I can't say but this plant will remove like for instance for BOD remove it'll it will remove 98% of BOD 98% of DSS it'll get ammonas down to 2 or 3 milligrams per liter so to a very low level uh of pollutants once it's done I I don't know enough about the existing plant to say a percentage but we could do that calculation obviously yeah that would be interesting we'd have to look at what it's discharging because that's what we're we're paying for Right. We want to see happen. That's what we're having in the new plant. Yes. Exactly. The other thing about this is you always remember when you're discharging to groundwater, it's like your septic system if you have one at home, you're getting a lot of treatment in the ground. So we measure what comes out of the treatment plant, but then when it gets into the into the dis into the groundwater recharge fields, it gets an additional level of treatment. So by the time it reaches the groundwater table, it's really clean. It's drinking water clean. would be improving the groundwater. Exactly. That's what's happening here, right? Exactly right. Thank you. Anytime. I love talking about wast. Okay. Mr. Scott has another question. How many more students could you could you handle here with this system?

Um, yeah, with a system. I mean that's you could you could quadruple the size. Yeah, but you don't because they're only using quarter. Yeah, exactly. So 18 gallons of well 18,000 gallons treat can be treated and they're only using four,000. So quadruple is a good estimate. I just had one. Um, does the school offer summer programs? Yes, it's a technically uh technical school. So, I know that a lot of the surrounding schools do have ASY, but I don't know exactly what programs they would offer in the summer. No, that's okay. I'm asking because on the drawings that were submitted, it uh showed a building right next to it. I don't know what that building was, but um are there what kind of safety considerations do you have if you're doing this over the summer with students nearby with cranes and other things? Have you addressed the safety factors? Um typically we have a staging plan. It's wasn't included in the set that you guys were reviewing. Um, but the staging plan, for instance, if we're going to start excavation in spring 2026, that's during the school hours, but it's offsite from the actual main building. So, temporary precautions such as temporary fencing are getting built in. Uh, the temporary egress as needed and then also um just visibility to making sure that it doesn't attract attention. So we are during our phasing we will consider um precautions to limit disturbance to school activities in reference to the adjacent building that is uh the department of education uh uh superintendent building. So it's typically just a main office. So

probably no more than five individuals would be occupying it and it would be sporadic or in our case it would probably not be used as often during summer. But there is a phasing plan that accounts the use that construction during school hours into the summer and also into the fall and allowing the school to reopen. Okay. Thank you. In addition to the fencing, would you have security personnel out there? Um, we can make that request, but I think as far as the contractor, we I know we do call for a safety management plan to be submitted. So, in terms of the construction, we do monitor what the contractors do. Thank you. Does anybody have anything else? Do you have anything else? No. Thank you. So, I guess at this point, I'm still just a little unclear. Um, we don't approve it, but I guess we endorse it. So, we should take a vote to endorse it. um with some of the conditions that were stated. Um and I have fire department approval, 3000K lighting, downwardfacing lighting, uh fixture, and um safety management plan. Anything else? Everything else that might have been in Dave. Yes, of course. Yes. And would you would you like to craft a resolution based on that? I mean a um a vote or does that kind of suffice? I think we should we should take a vote with the you know the approval or the So the wording was okay with that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Yeah. I want to make the recommendation. Okay. So would somebody

vote to endorse or approve this? I'll make a motion that we endorse. Thank you. Second. I'll second that. All right. Roll call, please. Robert Blegley. Yes, Ronda Day. Yes. Ernie Ragstack. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. Yes. Christine Dumbar. Yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. Chairwoman Joan Ferman. Yes. All right. We wish you good luck with the project. Yep. Thank you for coming by. Was that just a joke? It was funny. Do you guys want to keep the physical boards or do you just want the digital copy? I think the electronic copies. Okay. Thank you again. Have a good night. You too. Thank you. Mayor One second. Find my papers here. All right, we're moving on to other board business. Um, I do have some things, but I'd like to ask the board members if they have anything that they'd like to raise. All right. Are you gonna talk about um Yeah, we'll get to that. Okay. Okay. Um, the first thing I just wanted to mention is that uh we have had some affordable housing plan meetings and the deadline for uh submitting the plan is June 30th. Uh, and the planning board

will be voting to adopt the plan at our June 18th meeting. Uh, that's when we'll have our open session on it. In order to prepare us for that though, I wanted to have some executive sessions with um so you can you know get some background as to what is going on with all of this because you know the adoption is a big thing and you need to be updated on it. So I've asked for two executive sessions. The first one will be May 21st and that'll just be more of a general overview on things where they stand where our numbers stand. Um, and then another one on June 4th, and that'll be the meat and potatoes part of it, where the plan is almost fully developed, and we'll have a chance to really review the draft. So, when it gets time to be the 18th, we should be in a good position to approve it. Uh, the meetings are going to take place at 6:15, you know, before the planning board, just because it makes it easier for some of the other professionals to get here and to present to us. So, I just wanted to make everybody aware of that. if you can try to plan some your schedules around that. Okay. And then the town council, we adopt it and then the town council endorses it. So if we adopt it on the 18th, it'll go to town council for endorsement on June 24th. And um but actually it has to be submitted within 48 hours of our adoption. That's the deadline. 48 hours after we adopt it on the 18th. So, if we're doing that on a Wednesday, it'll be in that Friday, but then it'll go to town council the following Tuesday for an endorsement. This is all part of the the DCA round four. Yes. Yes. It'll get submitted to fair share within 48 hours and then it gets submitted to it's called the program, but it's the court after it's adopted by mayor and

council. So, that's it. So, next uh meeting we'll have the overview. Who are the members of that committee? Um well, Steve Warner is the attorney and Katherine Sarmad is the planner for it. The other members on the committee are uh our mayor Neil Clark Dean um Blumemedi is on it, Jim Zep, and then just in the last couple of calls I've been on it as well as Kempor. Hope I didn't miss anybody. I did in a nod. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any questions on it? All right. Well, yeah, I do have a I do have a question. um because I'm not up to speed on on what what this is and I understand you know that our number is 311 units and um you know I've seen o over I I've been in in this housing business for a long time and I've seen that there are multiple ways that a town can attack the these these uh these phases of these DCA phases and you know there are there are ways in which we can we can I mean we could either do it the easy way or the hard way. The easy way is okay let the developer come in give him 80% market units and we put in 20% COA and and the total number of units instead of 311 it's more like55 units would be built in Sparta. So that's one way we could do it. And that means, you know, you have 1,200

more units. You have hundreds of more children. Cost $324,000 in Sparta to educate one child for 13 years. And so doing it the easy way doesn't it it looks it looks good on on paper. And and I I I wasn't prepared for this. And and I I can do all the math and show you how this works, but doing it the easy way means that you're just growing your population. Your population grows by 1,555 units times two or three residents per unit. And so suddenly then you're your population goes 3,4500 more people and suddenly you're building 80 million, hundred million, $200 million schools. in addition to paying $24,000 to educate the children. So, what's the hard way? The hard way is that Sparta actually goes out and and obtains low-income housing tax credits which are available from the state and then we enter into the Aspire program which can bring us up that that low-income housing tax credit can provide the the bottom 20% of the capital stack. And then using the Aspire program, we can go up to 70% of the capital stack. And then there would be other grants and and items that are available at that time at you know that are always available. And then you know there there would be capital that that Sparta would have to put into it. And what is the what is the result of this? The result of this is that you have less housing. You bring less housing in. That's that's a pro. That's a that's a good thing. And your population grows

much slower because Trenton is forcing us to grow in the in this program. And the, you know, one of the downsides is that you don't have an interpersing of uh low income with a market unit with two market units. You know, three three or four market units. than a low-inccome unit. And and you have to really spread out that housing. And there are other ways that we can address this. We can bring in uh veterans veterans housing. We can bring in senior housing. And there are limits to how much you can do on that. And I'm I'm sure um our planner can tell us about that. But I I just think that, you know, we don't necessarily have to consider the easy way. Can I jump in on that? I think don't correct me if I'm wrong. Um 55 and older communities count towards that as well. So So there's a a couple things at play. So, what most likely I don't know what your planner is doing, but um what she most likely is probably doing is preparing currently a vacant land analysis where you pull all of the tax um assessors classifications for anything that's been classified as one, which is vacant, or 15C, which is public property. You then go parcel by parcel, and you add different layers in GIS. These layers contain things like steep slopes, historic um habitats, emma flood maps, um all different kind of environmental constraint, um Rossi sites, parkland, open space, which I'm going to assume there's quite a bit here in Sparta. Um, I personally have not looked at your map, so I can't speak specifically about what that looks like, but it's most likely that a lot of these properties are going to be pulled and have some kind of constraint. That's

what I have found in most of the municipalities that I have done this in. Um, from your vacant land analysis is where you pull out your realistic development potential. So your realistic development potential is then when you identify the uh sites that are vacant, you then look at a couple of factors. Also the other factor when looking at these is can it produce five dwelling units using the six dwelling units an acre calculation. So if it can't produce five or more dwelling units, it's a property that is too small and also cannot be used in this analysis. So then you pull out what is left. Um once you pull out what is left, you then look at the um zoning, the existing zoning in the round two rules, which is kind of the rules that we've been using for these vacant land analysises in the second and third round and we've been told to use in the fourth round as well, is you look at the characteristics of the neighborhood as well. one of my municipalities, their only vacant pe parcel in their municipality was in an area that was you needed 2 acres for one unit and all of the properties surrounding that were also in that zone. So we use that as what the density would be um because it would not work with the character of the neighborhood and based on the rules from the second round we have to go with what is present for that zoning because you have zoning in place for a reason. So that is where we were then able to pull the realistic development potential using that zoning and the density that you have in place. So a similar situation if you had a property using your zoning and your density calculation that only produced three units or four unit I'll do you know what I'll say 10 just to make it an easy and uh calculation in my head. Um 10 units though does not mean 10 affordable units. Um fair share does not

traditionally like 100% affordable projects. So using their methodology, you then do a 20% set aside of those 10 units. So of those 10 units, you set those aside, that's going to now be two units, right? And of those two units, this is where like the math comes in of the different types of units. 50% of those have to be family. 50% can be a 50 plus. It can be um we have like assisted living facilities, things like that that can be used, but 50% have to be for families. 50% have to be for those other kind of um housing assistance. So that's where you'll come up with what your realistic development potential would be, which I'm going to assume your planner will come. So that big number that you got from DCA most likely is going to be whittleled down once so you can look at you know your zoning, your available land, the environmental constraints. Um I would assume that you are probably going to come up with a number much lower than that. Okay. Thank you. The 311 is the lower number. Okay. She's done the real she's done the vacant land analysis. A letter from the judge today. No, that's so that is that that so that number that 311 is the judge coming up with. So in January you adopted an ordinance and that was based off of this is like very convoluted. Yes. Um, so that January ordinance was saying that you did your methodology using DCA because you were required to use DCA's methodology, right? Which was a three-factor methodology that used census data, tax assessors records, and the land capacity mapping and you had to use their calculation. You couldn't bring any outside sources in. So, your planner most likely looked at the land capacity map, which was the only one you could really argue and say, "Hey, you added some properties in here that are not developable. You removed some of

those maybe." Um, and you then filed in your resolution, this is how many units we think. Um, and then you opened yourself up, right, for that for for any type of challenge from outside sources, right? So you probably either heard from fair share or the builder's association saying they don't agree. You have your regional need. So what you heard from the judge was just their a their assessment of that first piece. So now from that 311, Katherine will most likely take that 311 and whittle it down using your vacant land analysis. So that court judgment was just based on what happened in January. um most likely and why you guys are probably holding off until the end of June, right? Is to get your best argument to the table and not to allow for any additional time for challenges to be made. Well, this is why I thought we needed executive sessions, but it is so complicated. It's very complicated in on it. I was like, whoa, durational analysis. There's a lot of numbers very Yeah. Well, Alpine School's coming with uh proposal, you know, in the next uh couple weeks. I know you bring up the cost per student throughout school, but also with the cost of of the school levels and to go with the cost of a student say now then if it was a student with special needs, right? That almost like quadruples the cost of that as well. So there's definitely all things to consider when it comes to the additional housing, but I do want to reiterate that 50% of that affordable housing obligation is going to be for families where the other 50% is can be used towards other um other items. And there's different credits and things like that as well. And I think we've met the senior though. We're kind of maxed

out on that. So it's new round. So unless you're using credits from the previous round, you are. Okay. Um and then um you have 10 years to build this as well. So that's another thing to consider. Um it's over a 10ear span. So that's where also the challenging piece is going to come in for your planner and for mayor and council because you have to come up with some kind of plan in 30 days that's supposed to be the plan for 10 years. But I think you should also consider that a lot of these plans ended up being amended over the previous round as well. I was amending I had two different municipalities that we amended up until December of 2024 and we're still and they were still making changes because either projects didn't come to fruition. There was land swaps, things like that as well. Yeah, we're doing that. I know that you know the land has been identified. It had to be, I guess, if a builder expressed interest and those are the things that are going into the plan. You did bring up like the Cadam um right analysis of where they took a building and they got a $5 million grant and they it's all run by Chad. It's just all um COA COA um DCA. Yeah. So, they said that, you know, it doesn't preclude us from doing that in the future, but I think these are some discussions too that you have to have at the town council level. Okay. So, we'll tack it on all ends. Yeah. And then also a lot of things to I've seen um certain projects too. You'll have different nonprofits like United Way will come and do a project. Um one of my municipalities, they have an old DPW site and they're going to use funds from their uh fair share housing account because they've been having the um the account kind of acrue money and you lose that money if you don't use it. So you can use 20% towards your professionals for affordable housing and the rest should be go going towards either you

know affirmative marketing for these units or you know rehabilitation of units or any type of item that would help build units as well. Thank you. That was a great explanation. Thanks. Like I when he was excited to talk about wastewater, I can talk about affordable housing until my face is blue at this point. So yeah, when he said that I was like I can relate to that. I also have a topic that most people don't want to talk about. So, you've got your audience now. Yeah. This is my time to shine. Thank you. Yeah. My big question is with the affordable housing, we're we're putting this plan out out there saying, you know, okay, we're we're going to lo we're going to find where we can locate, you know, 250 affordable units, but we can't can't make builders build it. Exactly. I mean, we just have to allocate and it seems like everyational every past year we've had, we've never got to the number. Yeah. You know, so I mean, you know, it's I think the the growth stays pretty steady and and some builders don't they don't want to build affordable units into their project because they don't get as much money for it. So, they'd rather just build. Well, they'll have to. Yeah. Well, if if that's the only land that's available. No, because maybe I'm not going to be the one to explain this, but the mandatory set aides. So, if we have 20% across the board, if you have that zoning and in that zone they they want to build in that overlay where there's a set aside, they by ordinance have to do that. Do it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's um Roundtop is like that, right? I guess like that tree is not talking about a development but not like a single like building a single family house. Those are I understand what you're saying though as well is you could put I've seen this happen as well where municipalities have

put the zoning or the overlays in place and nothing ever was built. So you can put the zoning you can put all of the tools for it to happen but it's not to say it won't happen. We don't know what will happen in 10 years. So we cannot predict the future. But that's the effort of the housing element, right? you'll have a set of ordinances in there as well that that most likely will be how you are your plan your game plan of affordable housing. So when we have these executive sessions um will someone be here to explain and answer questions? Okay, that's I can't do it. And and maybe just think about um I I know when I look at the open space plan, we we had a almost a full meeting dedicated to that. Make sure that whatever we allocate there's enough time. Um, I'm starting to think we should push it back to six o'clock. Give us at least an hour or or maybe we just leave that night free and and can can we pick a night and say this this is what we're going to hear that night and so people don't have to get here 5:30 and 6:00. It's it's we start at you know what 6 o'clock or whatever and we go till till 10. What about the public's part of it? Um, well that would be that would be part of that meeting. So So one meeting dedicated to to So we'll have we'll have an executive session, right? the first one and then we'll have a follow on executive session and then maybe that same night we'll have a public session as well as as well. Something to think about. The public session is going to be on the 18th. On the 18th. So So we'll have two executive sessions and then a public session and we have to endorse it at the end of that public session. Okay. So these two executive sessions are for us to really talk about it. And I'm thinking we need more than the 45 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think so too, John. But we could also go we've also done an executive session into public and then back in the executive too. Yeah. But they have they don't want to hang. Yeah.

So we're gonna have Katherine coming and Steve Warner is going to be okay. On the call or Zoom or whatever you can do. Okay. Said you could do it earlier. So six o'clock couldn't do seven o'clock. 6 o' we could go till maybe can we start our planning board meeting at 7:30. I I think if we notice it that would we could do that if we notice it right. We have to we definitely have to notice at least 48 hours in advance. Okay. So that's a good possibility. Then we could go 6 to 7:30. I wonder if you could just say it at the tonight. Right. Sorry. You could put on the record tonight as well that it will be at 7. And then just advertise as well for the meetings at 6. Well, no, that the 7:30. 7:30. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. So, it's on the record, public record that we're going to start May 21st at 7:30. Um, I got a question about uh this process because I'm still it's a lot. Um, I was just looking at stuff and I know uh you guys have all kind of hit on some of my concerns about the uh environmentally sensitive lands and steep slopes and all that stuff and we're looking at that. But uh did we look at 15-12 ordinance 1512? What is it? So, an ordinance amending the land use ordinance to the township of Sparta to update public notice and submission requirements and incorporate Highlands Council call-up provisions for applications for development in the Highlands Preservation Area. So, we have I think I think you know when we were having that question, should we work with the Highlands Council on some of this stuff that Sparta may have opted in for the preserve for the preservation area but

not for the rest. So, I the planning but not for the preservation. Yeah. Your housing element will address your relation to the Highlands Council as well. There will be there should be a whole section. Um I I have like like I'm doing Wanukes and Wanukq will have a section related to Highlands as well as like any like I have also metallands um area as well and so you should have a section in your housing element related to sort of preservation area. It yeah it should it should address that and how it relates to if there are any vacant lands there or how how that would restrict it from being built in certain ways. Like I also have areas um near like Teterboro Airport. So that restricts the heights of how high you can build. So if there's a vacant land close to there, we took it out because you're heavily restricted on what you can do and what uses can be that close to an airport for example. Okay. And so I was just curious like is there does it bleed across to planning at all since we have the preservation area coordination with the Highlands Council? But I Anyway, just I'm just putting out there. everybody right now. 15-12 I will send it and you can bring it's going to be a really tight time frame. So we're going to have to act quickly so the better prepared we are to ask the questions and get some answers as she's writing it will be anything else. Okay, moving along. Um I want to just talk about the minor site plan subcommittee a minute. not so much the report, but um the fact that we've received a lot of unwarranted online flack and um it's kind of disturbing because people are commenting without really considering any of the facts. And it's surprising because a few of the people who should know better um because of their prior involvement with

the town are making these comments. And you know, every story has two sides. And so for the record, most towns do not have a minor site plan subcommittee and everybody has to go right to the full planning board. And um by our ordinance, we cannot grant waiverss. Well, I don't know whether people are trying to circumvent the process or applicants just may not be aware and it's a little of both, but we've been we're getting a lot of applications that really don't belong with us or um they're coming in that would require a waiver with no backup, you know, to prior resolution to prove that there was a variance. Um, so we've had a lot of issues and um so it's been unfair. So I just wanted to address that. But you know, we also recognize there are things that we could be doing better. So we've tried to make a lot of changes in the last couple of months. We developed a brand new application that addressed some of the concerns, you know, particularly with multi-tenant sites and parking. Um, and that form just started on Monday, May 5th. So, um, we now are using that. That should help things. We also to we know that the, uh, ordinances are somewhat, um, difficult to read. They are all over the place. If you're looking to find a sign ordinance, well, you've got design standards and then you have additional standards by um you know the zone you're in and the other day I found one more. I thought I had them all right. So there's another one. So I do feel for the applicants in that regard, but we did uh develop it so that when they come in with this new application, they're given a copy which is you know rewritten, retyped everything for the design standards and if you're in this zone, this is what you need. They're also given the parking standards. So we hope that that will um improve the process a little bit. And then tonight we are

going to also introduce a resolution. That's what I'm getting to. Um because we did have a meeting to discuss some of these processes where these applications if somebody filled out a minor site plan application, it just was given to the minor site plan subcommittee. Zoning never took a look at it. And so that wasted some time because then we finally get it and we're looking at it saying, "Well, no, we have questions or this is blank or no, it doesn't belong here." all of these other things. So, um, you have a resolution in your packet right now and it came out late. It came out today. So, if you didn't have a chance to look at it, I'd like you to look at it now. It's it's very short, so it's easy to look at. I just have to find it myself. Oh, thank you. And I'll read it out loud because it's short. Um, it's resolution 25-15, administrative zoning process, and the matter of Sparta Township Planning Board concerning Sparta Township land use applications. Whereas, the Sparta Construction Department and its related land use group receive and process numerous land use applications daily, monthly, and annually. And whereas to better effectuate the land use process for the Sparta public, the planning board and the Sparta construction part department, I'm sorry, the planning board and the Sparta construction department seek uniform and transparent land use application process. And whereas the Sparta planning board in conjunction with the Sparta planning office direct that all Sparta land use matters shall first be reviewed by the Sparta zoning officer for zoning compliance. Now therefore be it resolved by the planning board of the township of Sparta, Sussex County, that number one, any and all Sparta Township land use applications must be reviewed by the Sparta Township zoning officer prior to any other land use submittal. And number

two, a copy of this resolution shall be published in the New Jersey Herald as required by law within 10 days of its passage. So what it basically means is that the zoning office will be reviewing these applications determine where they should go. Should they go to the full planning board? Should they go to the zoning department uh uh zoning board of adjustment? Should they go to the minor sub um site plan subcommittee? Or could the zoning office just make that determination? So they'll be looking at it. They'll be looking to see that the blanks are filled in, that you know everything is properly attached. And they're also going to be including something we found the other day which is what is it called Rob? S the S SDL S SDL the yeah the construction portal um spatial data logic right so go ahead you can explain that part Rob could be used by all it could be used by your assessor construction land use there's all different portals we never knew about it though so we're looking for prior resolutions you can load all your GIS mapping on there some of yeah some of us knew about it but some of us were only using it as you know for residential construction purposes But uh I believe um it was to give credit where credit's due. It was township manager uh assistant who located that from the internal system there's a lot more detail. And so that's where we were able to chase down uh some prior approvals on signage so that we didn't have to just simply guess and say well a sign's there so it must have been approved because we can't we can't make that assum assumption. Unfortunately, uh signs oftentimes just have been put up. Um not all signs, but uh so that's something that we have to look at. So that's just kind of another tool for us if an

applicant you know and again I think the responsibility does fall on the applicant to there's a section in there which says please attach any prior approvals variances waiverss um related to your application if you're applying as a tenant or uh on behalf of a tenant as an owner um you know it's it's important the more information we have the more efficiently we can deal with these applications And quite honestly, the last couple months have been hundreds of back and forth attempts to to basically do the work for the applicant on behalf of the applicant. Um, and it's been a lot of time on staff that I don't think, you know, is fair. I don't I don't think, you know, it's a $50 application for minor site plan review. Um, and that needs to I mean for residential construction you have to include everything. It's it's on um the property owner to provide that information so the determination can be made. Um, in a lot of these instances, we've been able to do the leg work for them. But going forward, I think we're we're going to try to put things in that will help applicants find the information if they don't have it. But, you know, we we can't. It's it's unsustainable to Yeah. So, I mean, I think that was kind of to your point was that there were comments being made about uh we're we're blocking things. Um but no, we're not because the minor site plan subcommittee can't actually grant waiverss or variances. We can just help handhold the process for the applicant beyond what the office might be able to do. Um and and when we determine that the threshold

is reached where we can't act on it um then we'll just pass it along to um the full planning board or the zoning board of adjustment. to Jones, to the chair's earlier point, most towns don't, you know, offer this this alternate pathway, which quite honestly, for $50, it it uh it saves the applicant a lot of time and money because they don't have to typically hire professionals to represent them. They don't have to wait for an opening in uh, you know, the board's availability. They don't have to public notice. they just have to submit the application. So again, I kind of I think made this request in a different way before, but you know, I put it at the applicants. The more information you can provide, the better. And same thing for uh the Chamber of Commerce. Um it's it's frustrating to hear that uh you know, Sparta is not businessfriendly. That's not true. Um Sparta has um a a master plan. It's updating its master plan. It has zones. And I think our planner said something like, "We have zoning for a reason. We have a plan for a reason." And I think that that reason is pretty obvious. Um, if you know, even from a Chamber of Commerce perspective, if people were just allowed to put up whatever they wanted, it would be great for a couple years until everyone looked around and said, "Wow, like this, you know, maybe we can't get such high rents for our tenants. Um, this doesn't look like a place that we're going to really get a good return on on our investment." So, all we're trying to do is is read um the ordinances uh and local zoning as it is

published. If you disagree with certain uses that are not currently listed uh and therefore allowed in certain zones, um those ordinances can be changed. All of this is it's a living um large document that you can look at. Um, but start with your parcels, see what's available, and then, you know, let's let's get you in here and and get your business going because that's all we're trying to do. Yeah. And on the pages now, it's going the uh applicant has to certify that they have looked at the ordinance and if they're missing things, it's just going to go back and say, fill it out, you know. Um, I think most of the issues that we've had are with multi-tenant buildings. And if somebody doesn't realize they're coming in and the use is slightly different, well, that triggers maybe parking standards. So we have to look at that as well. So it gets a little more complicated or if you have multi-tenant the signs need to be uniform uh not exact but uniform. So we do you know look at a lot of those kind of things. Um but this process hopefully shall you know it's a work in progress but it should make it easier for the applicants for us and u you know we'll go from there. So we do have this resolution. And then there's one other issue we I know Ron wants to talk about we'll bring up but um I think it's separate and apart from the resolution. So if any could you if anybody would like to make a motion to can I have can I comment on this course motion? So I'm going to probably catch some people by surprise with this which I I apologize for doing. I I don't like this resolution. And the reason that I don't like it is, you know, where it talks about the planning office should be reviewing, the zoning office should be reviewing these things before it come to us. I don't think we need a resolution to do that. Well, and and well, let me finish. Let me finish. And you can disagree. Um I I

think um that's my understanding that's what's done in most towns. That's what's supposed to happen. And for us to put a resolution to effect uh a process that should be happening is not happening. That's a discussion with the town manager to me um and maybe even the town council. We as the Spartan planning board cannot direct town employees what to do. They don't work for us. This this directs them. You will do this. So, I I understand the thought behind this and I and I like what what what we're trying to do, but to me, we don't this is a resolution that's not needed and I I don't support resolutions just for the sake of a resolution. So, so I I personally would be against this. And then feel anyone feel free to disagree there. No, we don't I don't disagree. That's what we brought up in the meeting. But um this I mean I I understand the meaning. Um I never would have, you know, expected this type of wording. Um and and I I think there's wording. It's just we're walking into something that's just the wrong thing. There's a if there's a problem where things aren't being reviewed before they come to us, then let's hit that problem, but let's not write a resolution. Can I ask um I just want to know from the planner you you said that other towns don't do this. I wasn't at the meeting Ron that you're talking about. Um and I don't disagree with your your statement just now. Uh because I I just want to get it on the record. Is it true what Ron said that uh most towns there's a certain process. Could you step us through that process? Um, so I'm I was a former zoning officer in Westfield, so I can speak to my experience as and I am a consulting

zoning officer currently in the city of Summit. Um, neither one had had a me a meeting before going to the planning board. Um, you would have meetings pre-application. Um, but as a zoning officer, I would review the application that came in and if I denied it, I would say, "This is denied. You're going to the zoning board. You're going to the planning board. Here's why." Um and then alternatively applications that came in for both boards um because we like I said we didn't have any um we didn't have a a subcommittee of any sort um we had to do a completion checklist. So was it a complete is it incomplete? If it's incomplete you don't go to the board and you don't go to the board until it's complete. Um, so when I worked at Westfield, we had I had an assistant zoning officer as well as a board secretary who would help with the completion. At one point, both of I had neither because of leaving or whatever, and I just did the the task at at the time because they're all on a timeline, so you have to get them done. Um, so I in my experience, I've done kind of just reviewing it and determining if it's a complete application or not. But Lindsay, if I could just um typically when when you were acting as a zoning officer or in the zoning office, if an application will come in, you would at least say permitted or not permitted. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And I would say it's not permitted because of section whatever whatever whatever and it says this is what is permitted and this is what you're asking. And if it's not permitted, it wouldn't come to it wouldn't go the next step. No, it would be it would be a denied application and you would you would either have to then take your denial and apply to the appropriate board or amend amend your application to be compliant with the

ordinance. So So that's that's what I'm saying. This is this is kind of saying go do that. Yeah. And I I think that's, you know, maybe could it be something as I'm I'm sure in your ordinance, right, you have um like I know anytime when I in Westfield I took on a new task, they would amend the ordinance that described the zoning officer position and that would and they would like at one point I took on um the historic preservation commission. So they added that description in the ordinance, right? because you had to be appointed that position when you were uh or at least in Westfield when I was hired. I had to go to mayor and counsel and they had to approve the hiring and part of it was approving the description the job description as well. We don't have anything like that, do we? I think we must have job descriptions for but an ordinance that describes the zoning officer position. Yeah, it should have it should say the zoning officer duties or something like that. It would probably be within your town code. It should be most uh municipalities do have an ordinance um stating what the zoning officer uh job duties are. Most min uh municipalities do have that. Do you know what's in yours? No, I don't. I never looked at it. Uh zone officer. So, just to give just to be fair to hear from you, too. Right now, like as in like last week, maybe not today with the old applications and stuff. When somebody came in and they handed you an application and they signed it and gave you a check, you didn't look at it for anything like that. It just went straight to if they gave you a minor site plan application, it just went straight over to the minor site plan subcommittee, right? For this township. Yes. Most times when that's why when you see some of those applications on the um site plan subcommittee minutes and you say, "Oh, we didn't get this." Yeah, because they submit and then we review

and determine if it stays with just zoning or if it needs to go to one of the boards, but it's not looked at in, you know, for detail for completeness or for whether it should be at the zoning board or the planning board or the minor site plan. If it's a minor site plan application, it just immediately got funneled to the minor site plan subcommittee. Not always. Okay. So maybe you're right, Ron. Maybe we should be uh looking at the ordinance and putting it in there that describes the positions and and and and I I think you know I think the person that has to to get involved here and and maybe already is is Jim Z. He was meeting with us. Yeah. I I mean as was a nod Kenro Dory and and and just in general we the planning board cannot direct town employees what to do. hear. Thanks, Ron. Yes. What do you want to do? Consensus. All those in favor? I I All right. Um, would you be able to draft a letter to You know, maybe Ken can listen to this. Do I have to deliver it to the township manager? Did you find the ordinance? Appears. So, the zoning officer is responsible for reviewing. That's the zoning officer is responsible for reviewing applications for zoning permits and the granting or denying of such permits in accordance with the zoning ordinances of the township of Sparta Sparta. Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, we could check over towns and see

what they say. Yeah, I could see what Westfield said. It's 24.3. It's under the division of zoning code enforcement. I should probably ask for job descriptions, too. So, for example, Westfield has a section that says zoning officer duties and then it goes through six different items. And I can just email this to you as well, Joan. Thank you. Um, but it goes through different things. review applications, coordinate processing of development applications, investigate alleged violations, things like that, enforcement of the ordinance. Okay, we've got a plan. All right. Along those same lines, um, two of the applications probably in the last month or so have come in for uh, Pilates and Pilates is um, depends how you interpret the ordinance, but Pilates is specifically mentioned in the PCED, the PDRM2, the ED, you know, different areas, but it is not listed. it falls under fitness centers uh because it's led by a class instructor and it's cardio whatever. So, um the TCC zone does not list Pilates as a permitted use. So, as a minor site plan subcommittee that cannot grant waiverss, we were referring it to the

full board. [Music] Um, there are other places, cardiovascular places, I don't want to say sports centers, but sports related type of things that are in the TCC zone. I don't think we have an objection to it being there, but it is not listed. So, um, we've we were kind of split on some of our votes. Um, and I think the best thing to do is maybe talk about an amendment to the ordinance so that it is not questionable if in fact people do want to see it in the TCC zone. So, we need to kind of discuss that. Ron has some strong points on it. um you know we we've toss tossed it around but I you know want to give him a chance to present his view but before that also just when just in general when an application comes forward and it is going to happen all the time where an applicant says but they have this it just I just want to note that we don't know what they may have done to get that they may have come before a prior full board and gotten approval or the ordinance might have been different then or they you know all we can do is look today at our current um application and and read the code and see this is our decision but going back to this particular use has come up and it's something that I guess would come up like under an annual review what are people trying to get that they're being denied and Pilates seems to be something where yeah let's have a discussion. So, Ron, sorry. Well, because you have a permitted use, a conditional use, and then if anything is not mentioned, it is presumed prohibited. So, that was the premise we were operating under. It was not listed. Fitness centers were not listed. Um, so three of us voted to refer it to the zoning board and one re

uh voted to refer it to the full planning board because of um I guess because it's in the master plan. And uh I'll let you address that part of it. So, so I I'll give you my view is is I do believe it's it's a permitted use within TCC. Um, and the reason the reason that I say that is that um when you look at the ordinance for the TCC, it refers you back to the master plan. Okay? It shall affect the the the tenants of the master plan. On page five of the master plan under the description of professional business commercial, it talks about this category should include a bunch of categories. One of the categories is health and indoor athletic facilities. Well, that's Pilates to me. So, you know, when when I look at, you know, it's not specifically mentioned. Um, I don't see donuts there, but Dunkin Donuts is there. I think it's it's it's it's umbrella within this professional business commercial zone as set forth specifically called out in the TCC master plan. So, so given that um I I think there's there's another aspect we got to look at. So, we talked about fitness centers and those type of things. So you got to go back to to remember fitness center was something we introduced last year and we did so as part of a parking ordinance to make it easier for certain types of businesses to get into to get into the economic development zone. I think Peter one and maybe Peter too I don't remember but it wasn't there when they wrote these ordinances. So, of course, it's not going to be there. But again, I I think you got to look at what's the intent as as set forth in the master plan. And it's clearly there to me. So, and and I think when you think of TCC, you got to look at a couple different things. You you can't just look at Sparta Avenue and Main Street. And by the way, in in the master plan where it talks about health

and athletic, it does talk about Sparta Avenue uh in particular, but also um you know, there's a history of approvals that goes way back on on on these types of businesses. Um, and I don't want to call them out because I don't want to call anybody, you know, I don't want to name any businesses, but these types of businesses have been around, have been approved, are still around. Um, and and I I and I think we we have to recognize it that yes, it is it's it's a permitted use. So the concern is so you know how do we prevent it from becoming a problem. So I think that's where you have to look to the parking standards and each building site you know if on a multi-tenant building if somebody wants to come in then they got to show that they can satisfy that business um within the within within the available parking. So, if you if you're thinking about opening a Pilates studio and and and a building on Sparta Avenue may have, you know, maybe 10 spaces, that's going to be a hard sell. It's going to be a hard pass. Maybe that's a better way to put it. But that's our job to look at it and and try to say, are are they meeting the ordinances? So, so, you know, I I feel strongly it is a permitted use. And I and I think the trick is to make sure that when we look at as the applications come in, we we make sure we're we're doing the analysis that says, "Yeah, and it's not just it's not just if if is it permitted, it meets all the other things that it needs to meet such as parking." So that that's my that's my feel. I'd like to see uh then looking back at the definitions because for me looking at it I was on one side of it but then I saw the other I didn't know all of this history. So you know I consider intensity of use. I want to know what

the intent was in drafting certain ordinances. The parking I'm trying to figure out. So, uh I would just for me it would be helpful if uh we could clarify our definitions. Um and and then it then I could make an easier def uh determination. That's fair. And and along those same lines, I just want to say this board this board has approved these types of businesses not in the TCC but in the C1 zone. And you won't see fitness center in the C1 zone. So, you know, I think I think we have to be consistent in what we're doing. Um, and in the C1 zone, we did the right thing. They came to the minor site plan subcommittee. We we said, you know, you don't meet the parking, you got to go to the full board. Um, now to to Joan's point, if clarification is needed, absolutely, let's do it because that's the right thing. But let's not stop approving things in the meantime or make it make it harder. I just don't think we should be secondg guessing the ordinances because, you know, we may correct in this one, but something comes up that's not in there for another application where it's not Pilates and we're saying, well, we think it, you know, might fit. But the way it states it is if it's not stated, it is presumed prohibited. So, let's just fix it because we just improved the bagel shop. Bagel shop's not going to be there. quite static trends change whatever it is being developed but with the same and and their umbrellas why not fix the ordinance I don't want to be the will never fix the problem what you do always behind I'm gonna go legal here.

I mean, I don't want I don't want to speak too much about Sparta ordinances that just in general if something I mean I agree with the with I mean but you're the definition is important. Um I don't I was actually just trying to see if I could find it in terms of fitness center definition if that's how it's phrased in the ordinance. Yes, it is. But I agree. You can't you're not going to be able to you're not going to amend ordinances every time somebody comes up with a new exercise class. You know, they'll be the next thing will be the next thing next week. There'll be something new and it should all No, no, no. It's fitness centers in general. So whether it's yoga, Pilates, um Zumba, all of them, they fall under fitness centers. But but that ordinance was just introduced, that definition was just introduced last year. So everything that's gone before that, what we'd say is, well, because it doesn't say that, it's it's not allowed. And I don't think that's the intent of what we're trying to do here. And when you look at that ordinance, I I have to pull it up, but I believe it was a parking ordinance. A parking standard ordinance was the title of it. So I agree, you know, I agree with what you're saying. I heard you're saying down there, too. you know, you can't, you know, I I think that's one of the things I struggle with a lot of times with with our whole master plan and all of the documents is that, you know, we need to have I think the definitions need to be sometimes I think they're too specific, you know, to the point of, you know, we'll allow Pilates and Zumba and then it's like, all right, well, what about yoga? You know what I mean? Instead of saying right? But small, you know, it should be maybe a more general description of, you know, small fitness uh centers because a fitness center

could be Gold's gym with, you know, it's 3,000 square feet of gym equipment with 100 people in there working out, you know. So basically saying that you know small fitness centers that are that have less than you know 25 patrons at any one time that fits in that category which most of those would be Zumba or yoga pilates any of those you know but it's not going to know like you said you know I mean we can't say bagel shops donut shops you It's, you know, it's it's again small retail food establishments, you know, right? You know, that are takeout only or or or mostly take out, you know, I mean, I think that's a better way of writing a lot of these these things like we do in some of the industrial zones. We say, you know, light industry would, you know, that cannot have bottled chemicals, explosives, you know, and that, but other than that, we don't care what they do. You know, they can make widgets or they can make laboratory equipment. I think there's always going to be a certain amount of we have to use our judgment. Yeah. And when we use our judgment, we look to the ordinances and we look to the master plan. And I think in this case, master plan supports both the master planet and the and the ordinance support this type of business in the TCC. And again, when you when you think TCC, please don't just think of Ma of Main Street. Think of the theater center and all those buildings up there. You know, could be a great use. There's a lot of parking up there. It might might fit up there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just FYI, a fitness studio is defined as an indoor fitness business that offers instructor instructor-led fitness or recreation classes, including activities like karate, yoga, and private lessons. So, you know, Pilates, it says like it.

Um definition specifically excludes tournaments, competitions, or events with spectators. So that would fall under more of a sports center which we don't even have a definition for. So um so in my experience these types of facilities that you're speaking about are typically under personal service or boutique fitness would be the two that because a boutique fitness center would be the smaller footprint. um like an like a yoga studio, a pure bar, club Pilates, those kinds of they will identify as a boutique fitness because like like Granny said, it's not a crunch, right? Um personal service is another one that I've seen um used especially in like downtowns. And then within that definition of personal service, you would put like boutique fitness or or uh you know that also could fall under also like hair salons or things like that would be a personal service. And and I'm not against improving the language there. And I think we have new experiences that we can do that. We've got these other definitions that were again just introduced last year. I know they're there but they were just there as of last year for the very first time. So maybe we want to look at the we how do we bring that into here? But but but I but the point that I'm that I'm trying to drive home is I don't think we should be turning saying it's not an approved business in the interim. You're saying the intention of the ordinance is to permit. Yes. And that that I understand what you're saying as well because that is also what you have to think about, right? The intention of why was it written this way and maybe you're thinking the intention was that it was not meant to exclude and and I look at the master plan. I give the exact words under professional businesses commercials talks about uses. It's on page five and it says uh health and indoor athletic facilities. So, I mean that's that's Pilates to me. And I

think and similar, you know, there's a you know, the crunch gym and the the small Pilates studio are both can be permitted uses, but if you're like, well, no, this space is too small. There's not enough parking, so you can't have your crunch gym, but you can have Yeah, there's other items that could dictate. They're still all permitted uses. It's then you say, "No, no, no. You can't do that here because it's too small or here because it's too crowded." It's not just about permitted use. It's permitted use and you meet all these other That's when you all say this is what you can do with this space. You can't have that big. You can't have that much stuff. You can't have that much equipment, right? It could be permitted subject to the bulk requirements. But even though Pilates is not mentioned, um yoga is not mentioned. Um Zumba is not mentioned. None of them are mentioned in the TCC zone, but they are mentioned in other zones. Uh those zones may have been developed afterwards and just never carried over. I mean, no, I know what you're saying, and I don't disagree. having it in the TCC zone. I just disagree with making those interpretations and why not just fixing it. So, um is there a third option beyond consulting the master plan and consulting the ordinances which both are uh they're living documents but they're slow growing documents. Could we have like a web-based FAQ and planning and zoning that has just general like it sounds like there's some uh established terms that I sounded appealing to me that we that we could just put in there and and kind of give some guidance to the applicant because if I'm applying for a business, you know, and I'm going off of what, you know, is being thrown around uh social media or just, you know, whatever, I it would help me to go first step application pull the application down where's my parcel okay

great there's a little drop down it says you know this zone and it just gives me a very just three or four sentences that tells me you know what the TCC zone is is meant to be the fabric of it whatever because that informs the signage the lighting the uses you go to the ordinance there it is and it says permitted us I know but we can't keep updating ing the ordinances and master plan. So, I'm just saying, but how does it help us now? Well, it's something that we could pot can we potentially roll out something on planning and zoning on the website to go along with well with the application that we're going to be more frequently updating, right? To make it easier for an applicant to see like Yeah, but I think that's a whole other story than what we're Well, that's what I'm saying. It's a third. But but John to your point and I do agree you know the wording that's there now can be approved. Sports centers which used in many of our ordinances is not defined. So so at least it so I I think those things can be fixed. So I think the real question at least to me is in the interim do we say that these types of businesses are not permitted or permitted? I think that's the real question that we're faced with tonight. Well, but but I don't I don't need to get caught up in personally I I don't want to get caught up in are they permitted or not permitted. I want to know, can we all agree on what the intent of the zone is? And if we can, then we can just make a reasonable decision based on what we we think it should allow. And then we can still uh maybe not changing it allows us to more accurately hear an application um and say, you know, could you just tweak this and then it'll work in that zone. But then to going going back to if if we're asking the office to do this, then that nuance is even harder. So that's where I'm like, well, if we could

write up guidelines, obviously they're going to be updated in the master plan, but we can't wait that long because every day we're getting new applications. I think we have to be realistic. We put an ordinance now in 10 years. It doesn't matter what it's called. Fitness centers in general. So fitness centers in general. If you want it in TCC, put it there. That's my point. It's gotten us into trouble with other things at minor site plan. You know, it's uh a bunch of interpretations. down and get out of the weeds of the actual look at the actual intent and I'd be agreeable that the ordinance and that was my point before was that you know we name specific things you know it's yeah no it says like that like this we can interpret but it's almost it's the same thing but slightly different we're we're better off basically describing the the the fabric in general the type of of business you know but but again we still have to be specific enough I mean we had we had an issue with this over a animal hospital or veter that's exactly why um I'm doing this because I sat in as Ron did and um who else did um Dean for G for Judge Minkowitz when he was talking veterary hospital and he was permitted in the zone or not. And he said specifically, well, is there another zone that specifically mentions hospital? Doesn't have to be veterary hospital. Has to be

hospital. If there's another zone that mentions it, then by virtue of that fact, it was considered and it should not be in this zone. It should be in that zone. And it's kind of the same argument. So, I don't want to go down that slippery road. But we can also have them in multiple zones. Yes. It has to be in there, right? So, can we put it in there? That's my question. So, it sounds like fitness center needs could go in the zone where Okay. So, that's it was incompletely updated to Ron's probable point. It should have been Okay, that's all I want to do. I'm not against it. Yeah. Just want to make it so that we're not being arbitrary and capriccious. There's nothing else. It has to give us enough guidance that we can, you know, we can, you know, without a doubt say that this definitely fits the description of of what it is, but without it being so constrained that we're being specific to, you know, one, you know, one thing, you know, you can't say well Dunkin Donuts, but we're not going to allow. No, no, no. The fitness center says things like it's instructorled like this, like that. It gives you examples. So, you can make that interpretation, but the overall category is not in there. Now, I'm just then I then I go to the other side and I worry that if it's too broad, it helps us on the review, but then, you know, it sounds like the judge is rule reviewing it in a different way. and what I you know that concerns me. Um because if I had my way about it, I would I would just understand what the zone what we all agree the zone should be because I think that's what planning board is trying to do is trying to do right by the

community and I could have my little, you know, cheat sheet on what that zone wants and what it can handle. And then I could look at the from planning board look at what they're trying to get us to be flexible on accommodate them without um ruining that zone for lack of a better way of saying it. I mean that's all I'm trying to do. I'm just trying to balance the good and bad and respect the intent. So however we can clarify any of those things I think will make it easier for all of us and for future five minute break let's think about it.

Hey, we on. All right. So, where are we? I I I would like to I don't know if it's a a motion or what the right aspect is just to to say that from the board we endorse if that's the right word um these types of businesses to include similar to what's in the fitness studios with Pilates Joy's act and stuff in the TCC providing they meet the other standards such as parking that's the right way to proceed. I I that's what I would recommend. It's it's an interpretation. Lindsay was about to say something. No, I mean I I don't know that you need to make a blanket decision like that. I think you change the ordinance and include fitness studio or whatever else. I think otherwise or at least for today there's no application in front of you. Correct. I had to do something with something else. Oh, I think there may be one still. Might be one. No, we already gave a decision. There was one that was a problem with the vote, though. I thought Did we ever rectify that problem? Both of them got both of them. It should be in the on there. Both of them went to Yeah, that's in the packet. That's what they were told. So, I would say at this point, you know, the next time, you know, in the meantime, if you want to amend the ordinance, that's a great idea. That makes it easier. and we were just saying under my terms that has to then go to council right for them to approve it but in the meantime you don't need to I don't think you need to put something specific on the record because this way you can consider each application and then when one comes forward the next time you can make the argument that you just made that this is covered and it should be and this is and

they meet the other requirements of the zone and therefore so if the two businesses that we made made a decision on where to come back with a new application tomorrow. Could we then reconsider? If How about amending your motion to say, you know, that we believe that due to the master plan wording that fitness centers are allowed in TCC and hence we are recommending a change to the ordinance and we put that on the record, then that's our opinion that we're going to do this along with a change. So, we're going to push it a little bit further, I think, because I think we're close. Okay, we can get there. I'm okay with the change, but in the in the meantime, I think it's our interpretation that it is it is permitted and and and we will pursue a change that will make the clarification so it's no longer correct difficult. That's what I'm looking for. Okay. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Studio CC or similar I have to just say something here. I think that um I think we need I liked uh the idea of introducing language such as small or boutique. I think that fits that fits the town center. I mean, we

wouldn't and I think that will answer a lot of questions to the applicants if that is in a decision making process for the for the ordinance. I mean, applaudies Yeah. narrows it just enough to fit into the town center in my mind. But then you need to def So then you need to then take bouti and then define that and then but then when you define that you're going to end up saying it has to be this big. It has to have these requirements but you already have requirements for your time zone. So you don't want to layer upon layer requirements because any facility any any business owner who comes to you has to fit within those requirements already. That's true. That's true. Petite then you're adding you're just adding more terms which I think is what we're trying to you know to define. Soitness is a fitness center fitness center which is already No no no no is a f is a fitness center a Pilates studio or is it an LA fitness? Right. Is it a sack or you get the parking? Yeah. But that's great but Like that was like when we first started, you know, you someone can come in and say, "We want to put this huge gym, this jersey strong gym in your TCC." And you say, "No, that doesn't fit. There's no room. There's no parking. There's no space." And so that's okay. That's the second layer. You know, it's it's okay. It's that, you know, you allow fitness fitness center studios, however, or sports centers, however you want to define it, and then you all make the decision on the rest of the parameters underneath, you know, requirements for the an example not going to happen but say CBS says you know what we're we're out of here we're moving that that space is vacant would that be something that could hold a big gym probably and it has the park so you

know it's all dictated by the park you know um you know and and the size of the facility you know most of these there's very few large places in TCC zone all of them are small you know 3 to 600 foot spaces are dictating those small uses. The only other place I remember there was a gym in the old where the old post office was. You know, they did put a gym in there and they had the parking. So, but I think it's dictated by that. So, I think same fitness center and then and then we have to make a decision based on parking standards. Are we getting rid of center. Are we getting rid of sports center and just saying fitness center replaces it? No, no, no. We're gonna have to find sports center at some time. But fitness center says it specifically excludes tournaments. Okay. You know those kind of things, competitions, but fitness center is just instructorled classes and exercise that encompass yoga, zumba, pilates, whatever. scale is determined by zone and availability. Parking could even be a gym that has weights that they bring in one person at a time. You know, it could be any of those things. We're just talking about something that is low volume, right? I think the definition of I think so. Well, I think we're going to have I think we're going to have traffic here if we don't put in smaller boutique or something. I think that we're adding more work. We're we're adding more work to the planning board by not trying to define just a little bit more um you know what we want to see in the PCC zone, but the master plan can do all

that. Right now, we're just trying to close this loophole um for the time being. Yeah. Make a motion that we we Well, I just want to add a motion. I know. But but just to that point, because we have added uses and and talked about uses without defining the scope and scale of the uses in this one, we're we're determining that parking has limited it effectively. But I do want to, you know, hear that point that uh if it were some other uses, it won't necessarily be limited by parking and we can't limit by off-site traffic generated. So just we're talking about intensity of use and all that. So all right, go make your motion. Sorry. Make a motion that we ask to have fitness studios. Was it centers added added to the TCC and in the meantime we support hearing applica I shouldn't amend your motion. No, that's all right. In the meantime, we support applications that are um that are make that are to that end. Okay, I'll second that. Okay, any other discussion? Sure. Robert Blekeley. Yes. Ron Day. Yes. Ernie Ragstat. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. Yes. Christine Dunar. Yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. Chairwoman Joan Furman. Yes. All right. Now, what's the process? Do we write a letter to town council asking for that one thing to be

incorporated? We're going to have I think we have to rewrite the ordinance with that wording in it and then sent. Okay. I'm going to talk to Kevin. Yeah. I think that's what I think that's what we have to do. Pretty sure that's because that's how when we amended the last ordinance, that's what we submitted. Yeah. The sample amended ordinance. Lindsay, I know Katherine used to do that that type of stuff for us. Is that a legal thing or is that a planner? What's what's the best way to put maybe you guys you can all talk and figure out what the best answer is for us. Yeah, I'm not sure how you guys in other municipalities like where I'm the burough planner, I will write the ordinance and then send it to the attorney for the municipality and then they'll bring it to mayor and counsel who will then refer it to planning board for consistency which clearly it's consistent with um and then it'll go back for adoptions. Yeah. So it's a probably a couple months away. Yeah. Thank you. Just for the one it'll be adopted probably around September. Bring it up. Well, the 10day notice and all of that. So yeah. Notice but in the meantime we can do something so we have nice compromise. Then Mark you can explain the reason behind it. Good compromise. Good. All right. One other uh thing with regard to minor site plan subcommittee and then we'll move on. I'm sorry. I'm glad we didn't have any applications to really um economic development. The minor site plan subcommittee is now going to review applications in the economic development zone as long as they don't have anything to do with hazardous chemicals um or or also controlled I think there was another let me just check yeah any controlled sub whatever it is but uh

hazardous materials or other materials regulated under the ED zone. Okay. Yeah. So, if they're coming in just for a change in tenencing or anything else that does not involve chemicals um or other substances as you said uh and it's just the minor site plan, the uh minor site plan subcommittee can review them as was determined by Mr. Dash and Mr. Pors today. It's long. Um, let me just read. The minor site plan subcommittee shall also have the authority to act upon minor site plans provided they do not involve an application in the ED zone or change in use in the ED zone for use that will utilize hazardous materials or other materials regulated under the ED zone. The minor site plan subcommittee shall not have authority to review or act upon applications for minor site plans that include any variances. And I can get uh your question. Hold on. Um so it's it's you got to look on nj.gov, but it's I'm not going to read it all. It's 87 pages long. Um minor plan. So we have to interpret that. You better get started. But it is NJAC7 uh 1E appendex A including petroleum products that are regulated but do not appear in appendex A shall be expressly prohibited. So basically you can't do uh gasoline service, automotive repair, garages and car washes. And then in addition, you cannot use you cannot have a use

that directly or indirectly utilizes materials listed in the 87 page appendices. Okay. So, I'm going to just give the concern I have with that just to get it out there. Just FYI before you do, there's no change in the wording of the ordinance. It's the interpretation. I agree. So, um, a lot of this goes back to when the ordinance 2221 was written, which basically downsized the the the size of a building you could have. And because part of that ordinance included certain impact statements, uh, traffic, uh, economic, uh, and, um, environmental required, they're always required. And so the thought process there was by keeping it with the planning board versus the um money site plan subcommittee making making all those go there. You have the opportunity to really say is this business what they say they are. You're not going to have that with the minor site plan subcommittee. So, you know, so if we're going to make that if that interpretation, I just want to caution people to make sure that it's you're thinking along those lines. Is that really what you want to do? And I'll leave it there. How do we change it? How do we change it? Leave it the way it is. Make to use use the old interpretation. I I you know this is do you want to open the door to what was maybe maybe it wasn't the best wording what is let's make sure you are what you say you are before you know we we approve your tenency and we're going

to be looking at 87 pages of uh different chemicals and stuff and and again a lot of these you know they may you know you could have a warehouse or distribution center even though you're not said it, but they warehouse commission that don't use those kind of things. So the doors we're opening a door that I just want to be I think we got to be mindful for the possibility is is it worth it? Ron, do you feel like it would be much it's going to be much easier for something like that to slip through the cracks? Yes. Yeah. That's why and and we have you know and when you come to the board it's not just the board it's the board and all the professionals you know the public has a chance to talk right and we're we're foregoing that now so Dave I'm going to I'm going to look to you because you were part of those discussions I think when we when we did the old ordinance on 22 21 back in the day when when was the was the chair you remember any of these discussions or I know you didn't make all the meetings but no I think one of the other things when you talk about the hazardous materials and you look at the area with the ED zone uh I think about the area up by Germany flats in that area and one of the biggest things with the hazardous materials is the wellhead protection area yeah for the water supply for the township and if you'll recall you'll I'm pretty sure there's some maps around this shows the tier one tier two tier the further away you get from the the wells themselves. And while they wanted, as I recall, uh to promote some reasonable economic development in that area, by the same token, it's the township's water supply. And in the last few decades, uh as opposed to all the wells that were originally around Lake Mohawk as part of the Lake Mohawk Sparta

Mountain Water Company, there's a greater dependency on Germany flats now than there ever was. So, it's one of those situations where you, in my mind, you'll recall, no floor drains, uh, no hazardous materials. You've had a couple applications. Off the top of my head, I want to say over by uh, uh, Aaron Way for somebody that wanted to do a lot of painting, that type of thing. If I recall correctly, the board did not approve that because of the ha partly, I assume, because of the hazardous materials. So, you're in a situation where I think that's one of the main things you have to be careful of because once you get pollution in something like that, just like they talked about tonight, leaving room in the sewage treatment plant for additional treatment later on, you got to leave provide additional treatment, god forbid, if something gets in the water system. So, I think that's one of the paramount things about it right there. And it's not it's not that we don't want to allow these businesses, you know. No, I think you look at the last the last thing. We're trying to make it easier in this case, but this is one of those cases I think we just want to be very careful and make sure we're we're letting in the types of businesses that we that are meant to be there. Yes. Is it that that's correct? And I think that this take this is going to need a little bit more deeper deeper look than just making a motion tonight. Yes. Uh I mean, you must Well, we don't even get to really make a motion on this. Okay. Or no, no action tonight is what I'm saying. Um I mean, you've got you've got hazardous materials in that zone, right? You've got red label chemicals on trucks and on trains. And I don't know the exact how that happened except that there was some way that they said, "Well, we're not actually using them. We're just moving them." Okay. And that's how they got away with it. And and you know, to Dave's

point, there have been derailments right there. And and one day if one of those cars breaks apart and goes into this that uh aquifer, we're we're in we, you know, 45 to 70% of our water comes out of there depending on the season. So I think we gota we really got to think about this. Right. Part of it's protecting the citizens of Sparta as well. Yeah. Right. The hard part is the railroad we have no control. It's fally controlled and what comes through comes through and you know I mean the one one positive thing is most of those trains are headed for the city and they have restrictions on the tunnel and everything else. you know, so there's not we don't have the same as some of those train accidents they've had in the Midwest where they got 100 cars and you know bad stuff on this has occasionally there's one it's probably getting dropped off somewhere between here and New York you know but we can do our part on the businesses I think our caveat is we've always been told that if we are not comfortable in reviewing the application we can refer it to the full planning board. And so I guess that's just what we continue to do. So Ron, the ordinance is 22-21, I think. 2221. So that was adopted December 13th and that has to do with um amending the definitions for the economic development district and portions for PDR. That's they excluded distribution centers, hubs. Okay. They excluded um fulfillment centers and and we said the biggest building you can have is 175,000 square feet. Okay. And then you know did a bunch of other stuff along those lines. It incorporated the other big thing is it incorporated

requirements for these impact statements which let us give us the information we need to determine is it the right business is is it are you what you say you you are do we see it the same way? Okay. I don't think anyone comes intentionally to mislead us. We just may we may have a different view. What's the downside with business community? The downside is that they don't feel that they can avail themselves of the minor site plan subcommittee pathway for what could be relatively minor applications. So to Ron's point, which is kind of always the point is we want to encourage business that's a general beneficial use in the zone and it's intentional and that the comm community is protected. But it sounds like he helped put together this ordinance because unfortunately we're getting applications sliding in that uh even though we're doing everything we can uh our citizens are being put at risk. So, how do we I mean, I think you already hit it is if if there's a whisper of we're uncomfortable with this, then it gets referred to the full planning board. I'm I'm fine with that. Uh it comfortable with all of them. Well, like there there may be some things in ED zone like like for instance, um I believe there's some there's a couple health facilities down there that that maybe makes sense, right? I had said I you know that I

didn't object to it as long as it's not a warehouse. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, that's a that's and that's that could be a personal thing or we could kind of just look at it again with with I I think I would feel better looking at 22-21 and really reading through that along with with this ED um zone description because I don't think it's a reinterpretation. I read it and it does seem like if these things aren't involved then MSPS can review it, but I don't disagree that uh I mean it's 87 pages long, so we would need to just really tread carefully. And then two other things, we're here now. We want to do the right thing. I'm not saying the other boards in future wouldn't, but we need to somehow figure out how to really protect well again like the wellhead protection zone. Exactly that. You know, we're I think we're all any population that's not concerned about their water supply, their clean air is a population that doesn't have their priorities straight. Um, so we just are going to figure out how to lean on our um local codes to protect the natural resources. Right. So yeah, and and if I can just say to me it all goes back to over there in the ED zone, we still have lots, right? We still have lots. How are we going to see them developed? Because every time you allow

one of those lots to be developed and you put down this hard surface, right, you are not allowing the you're not allowing infiltration. You're not allowing purification of the water and you're harming in the sense our water supply. So when I see these companies come in and they they want to sure I want them to have a business there and we're fighting for to get a few trees in here or there. The trees also remove pollutants also and they purify and then I'm going back to that whole area on Aaron Way that used to be a a gravel and sand company, right? And for years they have scraped off How many layers, how many feet have been scraped off that we're supposed to be cleaning our water? So now we're even closer to our aquifer and need even more protection. Okay, so that's why it adds up. You know, 40% okay, but when they're asking for 50, I say no. You cut down on your office space. I mean, we're being generous, you know, and allowing the 40%. Um, but um but we all have to be firm on that and understand that the cumulative effect is something that's very hard to measure from each one of these businesses. You know, each each application stands on on its own. We got to we got to look at it and make sure, you know, there may be cases where where variances are good and cases where they just don't make sense, but we got to look at each one on it on its own merits. I'm not talking about hardship

cases or or things or things like that. I'm talking about protecting our water supply. I I totally and taking it seriously, which hasn't been done from my perspective in the p for the past few years. It just hasn't been done. That's a view. I'll respect your view. I think I think people are doing everything that we can. Um, you know, when we when we when this board reviews applications, we talk about that stuff. You we do. So, so I don't want to say it's not being done. That that's I don't want that that perception out there. No. And and often, you know, everybody here has has had um input into their concerns about, you know, the native lands landscaping and such. We always bring that up with our our applicants. Exactly. Yeah. And they're expecting it, too. And they're they're ready for it. I Which is good. Exactly. It's fair. It's part of the discussion. Yeah. So, it sounds like we're all just We're here. We're the ones who decide and we're all in in agreement. So, it's not like we need to really draft anything right now. I don't nothing I can think of. I I think I think it sounds like that there's been an interpretation that's that's being flown down to us. sounds like if I understand it right. So the question question is if that's what we're being told you know I just want my concern was just I wanted to caution people that please think it out make sure that that you know they understand the concerns that I have. I'd like to see that ordinance changed as well. There a couple things in there that need some updating, but that's for another day. All right. Well, it doesn't have to happen today, but you want to put that on our agenda. Yeah, I'm gonna write something up

yourself. Okay. Even with this one thing about fitness center, isn't there a way to just get it to you faster council? You want to bring it up? Next meeting. Sure. Might help. All right. Thank you. This has been great discussion I think you know on a lot of different issues that have been plaguing us for a while. So uh I think it's been very helpful. We have just a few more things to do. All right let's do the updates. Mark, sure. Last uh the last town council meeting we had uh the discussion. It was pretty much holy wholly about um uh about cannabis and the town council approved the sale the retail sale of cannabis class 5 in Sparta. within 250 ft of a school, playground, nursery, nursery school, uh church, and uh door to door door to door. And yeah, and and the change is also doortodoor. No longer is it from the property line

to for example if you are playing uh if the PNC building PNC bank building across from Mohawk Avenue uh were to become it one day could become a dispensary because it's more than 250 ft away from the front door of Mohawk Avenue school. So you could have the dispensary on one side and you'd have the people from all over coming into town and buying uh cannabis um while you have six-year-olds playing softball uh 30 feet of 40t across the street. Um so anyways there is a uh there is a uh movement of foot to to see if there's a way in which we can uh uh overturn that and uh and we'll see see how that goes. Uh it's a very there's been an incredible reaction by the township uh to this to this major change and we'll we'll see what happens there. Um otherwise the uh the other uh thing that's happened is is as soon as the uh cannabis was passed uh uh Mr. Cherello resigned from the board and uh and we are now working on uh putting a replacement person in and that that that person we are taking applications for uh replacement and that person would take uh take office immediately and and and and uh and serve until November the November election and

then there would be a new uh a a new election for to for the remainder of the ter for the remainder of Mr. Cherella's term which is one year and then that person uh upon winning the election would take office immediately. Um would not wait till January 7th or whatever the reorganization meeting is. So, that's uh that's just a tip of the iceberg about what's going on with the town council. Thank you. How do you follow up? Oh, the trifecta. Okay. Oh, okay. So, so a hard one to follow up. Yeah, I know, right? Well, I'm going to try here. We had an Earth Day fair and um it there was um it's a shame that it wasn't better attended. Um we had a lot of great activities for kids um and it was um put together so thoughtfully um by Christine Rogers and Cara Johnson um and um and the weather cooperated but I think um it was a little late. It was May 3rd for PE for people to come and I think it's a little on the outskirts. There was, you know, some discussion about how we could not or possibly do it again, but maybe try the municipal building, you know, uh, one more time. But, um, but yeah, I think uh, it could be successful and I hope that we don't give up on it yet. This is our second endeavor. uh has a lot to offer our kids and our community bringing bringing us together for the environment. That's that's our thoughts. Um in terms of other things that um

we're working on, you know, um not I won't speak to the um the lighting the lighting um that we're we're hoping to um be implemented. You know, the the uh 30 300 degree Kelvin um the downward facing lighting perhaps and um the hours you know being limited um you know we're hoping that we can gradually through time you know see that implemented and I know that Rob is working hard on that um we've also um been working on a trifecta of things that have been re uh recommended by ANject which is the associ of New Jersey um environmental commissions and um we do pay Sparta pays for us to be a member of that and they're very u a very great resource for us in terms of guidance and and sustainability for us um and actions going forward. So, we've been looking at um a packaging product stewardship act and um that is um assembly um number 509 and it's actually coming up for a vote uh uh tomorrow. Um and what it does is it reduces excessive packaging waste. It bans toxic materials like PFAS, lead, and vinyl chloride. And it saves taxpayer dollars and supports municipal recycling programs. So, you might want to take a

look at that and give our uh district uh 24 assemblymen a call um tomorrow. um if you're interested in seeing that past. Uh so that's that's one thing we've been um you know discussing or will be discussing a little bit more uh tomorrow night. Uh then we have um another uh item. It's called the New Jersey Climate Super Fund Act Municipal Resolution. And what this does is I don't know whether you've ever heard of pay up climate polluters. Um that was an organization that was um promoting responsible action by um the large fossil fuel industry that was located in New Jersey. And um there's a lot of background on that because of the release of a study in the 1970s in which it was permit predicted that we would see raising uh the rise of temperatures in our oceans and in our air and everything and to hold those polluters responsible. Exxon had this study and they said this is what will happen and then they chose to ignore that and go on polluting. Okay. But anyway, so that's some some background history. So, this new um resolution um that's pending before the New Jersey legislature would impose impose liability on large fossil fuel companies for certain climate change related damages they caused instead of imposing all those costs on us, the New Jersey taxpayers. And um so that's um in the

Senate. the Senate Assembly bill. And so we're looking at that. We're discussing that and maybe we'll be passing that on to the town council for their endorsement. Um along with the packaging product stewardship act. So I said there was a trifecta. So there's another one we haven't looked at yet uh that Anjek has set out to us to examine and that is something that this community has talked about for a long time and that is getting um some sort of food waste reduction act um program going for our community and that is called the food waste reduction act. So we'll be looking at that also I think in the near future. So, it sums up Can you uh send to everybody on the planning board the the uh email address of that uh I think you said it was assemblyman that we should contact. Yeah, I can actually um Yeah, it's it's if you just call district 24, which is over in the EDZ zone. Um and just it's what is his name? It used to be Parker Space, but it's Ingamort. Is anybody familiar with our assemblyman? But he will be the the bill is actually going to be introduced to him. He's probably not that familiar with it in Ghanort. In Ghanort in Ganort? Yeah. Right. You want the telephone number? No, I have it. Thank Thanks, Christie. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so these are the things we do and um you know, it's a slow process. We're very careful and we really appreciate the support of Anjek in doing this and a lot of these things lead into our sustainable uh New Jersey actions that we select. Okay. Minor cycling subcommittees if we hadn't had enough. So um we're contemplating a sport centers versus fitness. You can you can look at the previous hour of discussion, but that that was one uh that we decided on um to to refer it. Uh we had uh 223 Sparta Avenue, which was repaving approved. I don't know if Ron wants to weigh in at all on that or just on 223 Sparta Avenue, the repaving. No. No. Okay. Um, and then we had 156 Woodport, which was a fence installation, uh, Ballard, uh, repainting, I think, request. That was pretty straightforward. Um, and then we had, uh, new signage just approved for PNC Bank 40 Woodport. Um, and we had a tough one, a multi-tenant at 25 Center Street, um, which we were able to finally approve based on a finding a pre-existing variance again in the spatial data logic portal. Um, so that's kind of what we got into. So again, you can rewind to an hour and a half ago or something where we talked about the difficulties in and moving forward on these applications since again minor site plan um cannot we don't have a quorum. So uh we

can only kind of help the applicant but we can't grant variances. So that's it for me. It's just a really quick update with the master plan subcommittee. Um, we since we were here last time, we have not met. Last time we did the survey, which is online if anybody hasn't seen it yet. Well, we will see it, but if you know anybody who wants to see it, it is online on the township website now. And thanks to Lindsay who did a terrific job putting it all together. Um, we are meeting tomorrow. So, our goal tomorrow is to really just um finalize uh how we're going to proceed with the focus groups uh sending out letters and uh going to oversee which groups and coming up with questions and getting some dates and that'll be what we'll be doing for the next couple of um couple of months through the summer. I'll fill you in more after we meet tomorrow. So then we have one more thing on the agenda and that is resolution 25-13 planning board application 24-727 the green 973 um I apologize that just got to you today um but you had seen this before we had it and it went back for a change and the change is on the last page where the number five where the applicant agrees to impose a 15minute customer usage window time restraint between its league and the group party play. So it was to alleviate the parking lot congestion. And there was one other thing that was put in here about on page five number three as per the Sparta fire prevention memo of 123024 applicant may be subject to additional fire subcode improvements. So

those were the things that changed from the last time. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at it. If you want to be maybe give it a conditional approval, if you're not comfortable giving it a full approval, leave it up to you to make a motion. What you want to do this this applicant is a solid citizen. I I don't have any reason to think that anything in here wouldn't be positive for the town. Um and and and the corrections I'm sure will be taken care of. So I No, no, no, no. Um we had this prior. We all looked at this. Yes. And we suggest we said, "Oh, you're missing the 15minute interval." Right. So it came back with the 15minute interval and the additional fire department thing. So this is something you have seen before, right? So I don't feel that uncomfortable giving it to you like at the last minute because you've seen it. So I I don't think we need a conditional approval, right? Well, we're going to make a motion, right? But uh where was the 15minute approval? It's on the last page number number five. Okay. I'm okay with making a motion to approve it as as updated. I'll second the motion. Okay. Roll call, please. Or any discussion? I had a recuse from the state as well. Yes. Robert Blekeley. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. Yes. Christine Dumbart. I don't remember hearing this applicant. Golf simulator. Maybe she wasn't here. I don't think I was here. You missed a couple meetings. We have enough.

Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. Chairwoman Joan Furman. Yes. Okay. The other application is going to be held to um the 21st. It wasn't quite ready. That's resolution 25-14. Uh PB number 25-729. Parisella. It was for the subdivision. So, we will review that. That'll be carried until the May 21st meeting. Open to the public. All right. Would anybody like to make a motion to adjourn? I'll make that motion. Probably. I'll second it. Thank you. All those in favor? Hi.