City Council - Regular Meeting
The City Council received an update on the new Star Center, a facility for behavioral health and substance abuse treatment, and approved contract modifications for the 17th Street Drainage Improvement Project and the Commercial Avenue Enhancement Project. They also approved an interlocal agreement with Skagit County for the Senior Services Program and a contract award for the Ben Root Skate Park restroom and parking lot project.
About this meeting
- Government Body
- City Council
- Meeting Type
- City Council
- Location
- Anacortes, WA
- Meeting Date
- June 15, 2026
Transcript
162 sections
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Good evening, everybody. It is 6 p.m. on June 15, 2026, and I'm calling our City Council meeting tonight to order. All City Council members are present. Would you all please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, we will get started this evening with some announcements and some committee reports. So first of all, A reminder that beginning July 6th, so basically the beginning of July, the third floor permitting and public works counter will be transitioning to appointment only. That is part of our plan to provide better service to applicants and others who need to speak with people in planning and public works. You can schedule an appointment online at anacorteswa.gov slash permitting, or you can visit the window up there at the counter and they will get you scheduled for an appointment. In some cases, even maybe the same day. We are continuing to promote our Adopt-a-Storm-Drain program. We are now part of the Washington Adopt-a-Storm-Drain network. You can go to wa.adoptadrain.org. That's Adopt-a-Drain with hyphens between the words. Locate the drain nearest you or your favorite storm drain. You can name it whatever you'd like and adopt it, meaning you keep your drain clear, keep it monitored, let us know if you've got something that you can't handle. And then you can track your impact and see how that really helps out the city overall. The planning department is hosting a community open house with respect to our critical areas ordinance update on Tuesday, June 30th. So at the end of this month, five o'clock here in the city hall council chambers, we've got a short URL for that too. And it's anacorteswa.gov slash CAO updates, critical areas ordinance updates. Fourth of July is coming up. We want to encourage everybody who wants to participate in the parade to register in advance. You can do that at anacorteswa.gov slash fourth. In the past, it's been kind of a free-for-all, but we're providing a little bit more structure this time. So anacorteswa.gov slash fourth to sign up. You can sign up your whole group, and then we can contact you in advance. Also, on the 4th of July, all boats need to be clear of the fallout area, which is not what I wanted to name it, for the fireworks show from noon on the 4th until midnight. So you can see that area on the map on the screen. We want all boats out of that area so that you're all safe while we are providing that large fireworks show for the community. All right, now, council, I've got two committee reports on the list. Maybe there are others, but shall we start with finance? Finance committee meet?
Mayor Walters.
Ms. Bolton.
Thank you. The finance committee met on June 11th, and it was council members Cleland McGrath and myself and finance director Steve Hoagland and finance manager Rhonda Peck. And we got our first good look at the new Tyler Enterprise system, which is what all the financial documents and records and documents activities are transitioning over to, and it's quite a process. It's like a two-year process that's going very well. We've heard good things back from the finance department about better interfacing with the reports that are easier to create, and also a lot of customization that's easy and makes the reports more attractive and easy to read and comprehend. So I think that's going to benefit all of us as budget season approaches. In 2027, the HR payroll and time card systems will be moving over. So you can see that it is a staged process of adoption. And I really feel like the staff's doing a great job of of doing it in a timely way with good support from Tyler as well. So the reporting is refined and we looked a little bit about 2026 and revenues and expenses so far, which are pretty much in line with what we expected, but we'll be getting a more detailed report soon from staff. And in 2027, to project the budget for next year. They're looking at the prior year actuals and then the year-to-date actuals as well to make sure we can predict as well as we possibly can how to approach next year. So it was a really good meeting and I look forward to hearing more. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Moulton. How about the Public Works Committee? Mayor Walters? Ms. Fantini?
the public works committee met just before excuse me just before this meeting um some of the items that we talked about um you may remember last week we discussed that a right-of-way ordinance will be coming to full council um this is just gonna be uh codifying um a lot of the definitions around who maintains the right-of-way around homes. And I thought a really great way it was put is the city is going to continue to maintain certain right-of-ways for function, but property owners are going to be responsible for regular maintenance. And this is not a change from anything that currently exists. It's just codifying it into the code. And that will come before us sometime in July. We also reviewed a solid waste proposal for amendments to Chapter 8.04 having to do with solid waste. The summary of some of the changes that will be coming before full council for discussion is Addition of a residential refuse bagging requirement, establishment of a waste acceptance and refusal policy, authority to inspect loads and determine acceptability. And then there's some other details as well. I thought for me, the most logical or not logical, the thing that connected it the most is this is going to really line up our solid waste to be on par with our recycling and how that is handled as well. Something else that we talked about was we are looking around the area of the skate park. You know, tonight we do have on our agenda discussion item and contract approval for the skate park restroom modification. As a general best practice, we're going to look at that area and see if there's any improvements or changes that need to be made since we are going to be adding a parking lot and a bathroom there to anything traffic-wise in that area. We also continued the conversation around the West Streets. You'll remember we had Some constituents here discussing Kansas Avenue and the West Streets. There are some ideas that our public works director and department have, and they're throwing that around. So we'll be looking for some of those to hopefully be implemented in the near future, but a little more discussion around that. Also following up, our wastewater treatment plant alternative analysis is going to be coming to council on July 27th. and that team has narrowed it down to six or less potential art alternatives that will come to us for a full council discussion we also had some very uh information around some development changes around the Ace of Hearts stream and Happy Valley stream that run through town so basically we've got these two amazing streams that run through town and eventually they eventually go through a stormwater pipes, and they become a pipe water stream. Well anyway, we monitor the flow to protect erosion at the stream heads. But about two years ago, ecology said that we need to require flow control. It's basically going to make developing in that area just a little bit more expensive because of some of the new controls that are being asked to be placed in there. So we're hoping to find a way around that, but probably not because it's a law and legal. So just that was unfortunate to hear about. But in case anyone else had anything to add.
Thank you, Mr. Fantini. Council members, any other announcements or other committee reports we missed?
Mayor Walters.
Ms. Hunt.
Just following up on Mr. Fantini's report, do you know if, have we decided if the July 27th wastewater alternatives discussion will be in a work-study session format or not?
I don't know if we know how much content we have for that or not yet.
I'd like to have that be considered as we kind of see how much we've got to do. Yeah.
Mayor Walters.
Ms. Colleen McGrath.
Thank you. I just wanted to share with the rest of council that our downtown Anacortes Alliance invited a couple of public works folks such as Will Ludeman and Brandon and myself to go tour Snow-Homish's downtown. So our local alliance has become... developed a good relationship with Snow Homish and they have, Snow Homish has really taken a lead on being creative with their lighting schemes for their downtown core. And it's pretty impressive. Started, I think in 2022 as kind of a, encouraging Christmas lights that have now become something that is included year round and really has been embraced by the community and the business owners. So we wanted to go see what that was like and how they made that happen. So what we took away from that was they had a really good partnership between Public Works, the city, their downtown alliance, the business owners and property owners, and they figured out a way to kind of attach lights to highlight the storefronts, kind of the details of each storefront. And it was received really well by the community using LED lighting that doesn't cost very much. It doesn't use very much electricity. It's kind of a neat way of doing it. We asked a lot of questions and And I think that they started as a Christmas decor that turned into something more permanent. And if we're thinking we want it to be more permanent, we would need to do some work with legal and really partner with our downtown Anacortes Alliance because they have some more flexibility than maybe the city would. But I just want to say I really appreciate it. And I think our Public Works Department appreciated being able to sit across the table from Snohomish's Public Works, Snohomish's Downtown Alliance, and other stakeholders that were involved in that project and really be able to talk around and see how they made it happen. And hopefully we can continue to explore different ways and utilize our partnerships with our Creative District. So it was a good experience. It was good to have everyone at the table to talk about it. We probably need to include legal before we go too much further. That was always the challenge. But it was a fun experience and it's a beautiful downtown. I'd highly recommend going checking it out. I was pleasantly surprised. So thank you.
Thank you. Any other council members have any announcements? Mayor Walton. Mr. McDougall.
Actually, I just wanted to add a quick thing, and it was great to have Christine's briefing on the Snohomish visit in the public works meeting. Just a clarification, I think you said that they do not string the lights across the streets, and we probably wouldn't be able to either because of building height, correct?
Yeah, that's correct. I think we've tried to figure out if we could do building height, but the height of our buildings, our historic buildings, are just not tall enough to be able to clear the trucks. And that was a similar situation in Snohomish. So instead, they actually just kind of – went down the sidewalk and kind of highlighted some architectural detail of each storefront and then plugged in the lighting to the city's poles. So that's where it gets a little bit more complicated of who's paying for electricity, where are the poles going, what is it attached to, is it private buildings or not? So I hope, yeah, I should have clarified that. Thank you.
Mel Walters. Mr. Young. Ms. Christine Cleveland-McGrath, would you elaborate just a little bit? I'm kind of, you know, still learning cities in Washington State. Every time I hear Snohomish, I think of Snohomish County and Everett and the work that they're doing. And I know that there's a smaller city called Snohomish, but I've never been there. So you're speaking of directly the smaller city, correct? All right. Thank you.
Anyone else? All right, hearing none, we'll move on to our next item on the agenda, which is public comment. I don't know that we had anybody sign up in advance. Is that right, Mr. Hoagland? Oh, if anyone signed up in advance, your name is still on the piece of paper at the far end of the room. So if anyone is interested in providing public comment at this point, come up to the podium or raise your hand. Seeing none, anybody online? I don't see any. All right, then we will move on to the consent agenda. Council, we have three items on the consent agenda. What is your pleasure?
Mr. Walters.
Ms. Hunt. I move to approve consent agenda items A through C. We have a motion and a second to approve all the three items that are on the consent agenda. If anyone wants to pull any items, speak now or forever hold your peace. Okay, moving on then. Consent agenda allows no discussion. We'll proceed to a vote. All those in favor of approving the consent agenda say aye.
Aye.
All those opposed say no. The ayes have it. Consent agenda is approved. Our first item of other business tonight is an update from the entity running the Star Center. And our fire chief, Mannix McDonald, is going to introduce this item and the presenters.
Good evening, Mayor Walters, council members and members of the public, Chief MacDonald and the Quarters Fire. As many of you may know, Pioneer Human Services have been serving communities across Washington State since 1963, providing essential support for individuals working to rebuild their lives. Here in Skagit County, they're nearing completion of a new facility that will offer qualifying residents access to behavioral health care, substance abuse care, housing, and the stability needed to move forward. We're fortunate tonight to have with us via Zoom, Mary Schroeder, who is the regional director of the Pioneer Human Services. And she's here along with the members of our team who will share an update on the Star Center and the vital services it will bring to our community. Please join me in welcoming Mary Schroeder, please.
Thank you.
We can hear you. You can hear me? Okay, good. Thanks for having us. I have my team with me. I have Seth Peebles. right up there on the right. He's a clinical supervisor at Skagit Detox. I have Megan Wagner. She's our medical director at Pioneer. And Stephanie Miller, who's the health resource manager for Skagit Detox. So we're not sure exactly when the program is starting. We're waiting for a credentialing, but it's going to be very soon. I would say in the next month or so or Maybe six weeks. That's hopeful. We're ready to move over there. We're going to move our existing operations over to the STAR program. And then we're going to open up one unit at a time. So we're going to open like detox and residential first. And then the next program that we'll open will be the crisis center, which will be law enforcement drop off, which I know that law enforcement in all the areas is looking very forward to having that option be helpful for them. So now I'm going to ask Seth to talk a little bit about the clinical programming at the Star Center, and then I'll have Megan talk about medical, and Stephanie will talk about current operations. And then after that, we'll have questions, if you have any.
Hi, my name is Seth Huebles. I'm clinical supervisor at Schedule Community Talks. I just want to thank you all for allowing us to come tonight and kind of Greg, about our new program. It's pretty fantastic. I can't wait till we are moved in there. So as I'm in charge of the clinical staff. So we have four amazing clinicians probably combined together have 100 years of experience. And from working in all kinds of realm from DOC to residential, to withdrawal management, to outpatient treatment. So we have like a really holistic approach of clinical experience. But basically, we want to assess the clients when they first come in. We want to give them an assessment. We want to ensure that they're safe and that we help them find what their goal is or what their goals, could be plural, and how we can tackle that. So if their goal is to detox and go to residential treatment, well, we have that just in store for them. We can give them an assessment, we can set it to residential, and there will be no lost and transport, they'll be able to go from one unit to the next without any delays. It'll just be seamless. Obviously we have other treatment providers like North Sound Behavioral Health Treatment Center in Everett that we work closely with. So we can send referrals to them, say if we were to be full. So yeah, so we definitely could also, when somebody comes into crisis stabilization and they're needing residential treatment, we can also do the same for them because we'll offer comorbidity dual diagnosis services. So treating both mental health and substance use at the same time always has best case practices. It definitely shows that it's best when you kind of tack those together at the same time. So we meet with clients every day of the week for a clinical group. In Detox, we provide clinical groups seven days a week. We have a peer counseling staff that does three activities a week. So from exercise to skill building, we will also have our peer bridgers that we collaborate with and supportive housing. Yeah.
That was awesome. Thank you. Does anyone have any questions about clinical practices at the new program?
I think we might have questions after you conclude with each of your presenters.
All right, perfect. OK, Megan. I'm Megan Wagner, medical director for Pioneer Human Services. So we'll be, as Mary said, we'll be starting off with the residential treatment and starting and then having detox in there. So we'll have medications for detox. We are in the process of getting we have a pharmacist that's going to be helping facilitate all of our meds. We'll be ordering. We'll be having meds on hand. That has been something that we had to work through with licensing and all that. But that is definitely moving in the right direction and should be there very close. We're just waiting for the DEA. But otherwise, we're about completed with that. So we'll be able to help people coming in for detox. So we do mat treatment. So we're offering all services regarding MAT when it comes to buprenorphine. We do long-acting injectables. We're doing naltrexone, Vivitrol. When it comes to methadone, we'll take outside. We're not an OTP clinic, so... That would be like a methadone clinic. We accept them coming in with their methadone. We can detox from methadone, too, that we've started to do. We detox from stimulants, alcohol, opiates. And we're moving into benzodiazepines here very shortly. I'm just coming up with a protocol for that. The other thing is pregnant women. That is something that we currently will do alcohol and stimulants. I'm also going to move forward with working on pregnant women. We take under 24 weeks and detoxing. Well, I'm working towards the detox for fentanyl or I should say opiates, but the majority is fentanyl nowadays. Yeah, we're working towards our procedure on that. So that'll be coming soon. If they're going to go into, and we do have a provider that is on call 24-7, but then also will be in-house there seven days a week for the most part, but they will be seen within 24 hours of coming into detox. A nurse will do an assessment at intake. And then the provider will see them within that 24 hours. When, I'm just trying to think, and then we'll have psych provider too, that will be seeing all of the specifically crisis stabilization, but when they're in the co-occurring, they also will be seeing them there. And so we'll have that for medication management and any, you know, possible needs that they may need mentally. But yeah, for the medical part, we will have a medical provider to managing the, you know, more of the, you know, people's other needs, diabetes, you know, and whether they have, you know, heart issues or, you know, hypertension, we manage all of that. Let's see mental health crisis stabilization. They'll be doing the same type of assessment coming in. Um, we have, uh, we'll have a BHC that will also do an assessment within a certain amount of time period that they do that. And then, um, we will have meds on board there managing the crisis, uh, stabilization. Um, and you know, we really try to, um, you know, we're getting them stabilized on medications or whether we're just getting them stabilized if they're feeling suicidal or whatnot. But if at any point we ever feel that they are above our level of care in the needs of, you know, when it comes to, you know, like we'll manage psychosis, but if it becomes like so severe that, you know, maybe this is something that needs more of an involuntary, fortunately, it's going to be nice that telecare is right next door to us and they're involuntary. So we could call a DCR to help come over and you know, see if they can evaluate them and if they need to go next door, then we could do that. Yes, I have been operating the one also out in Spokane, so very familiar with how this type of system works. So I'm looking forward to having it on this side of the mountains. I know I didn't cover everything, but yes.
It's a lot of information. I have a lot. All right.
If you'll hold on just a moment, we have a question from Council. Mr. Vantini.
You had mentioned that you had done some previous work like this in Spokane. What is the name of that place in Spokane?
Yeah, Spokane Regional Stabilization Center. So that's part of Pioneer also. And so that's how we got kind of the layout was from there. That's where we instituted it, had it, you know, we've been running the program there. And so that's how we got it. We saw how well it works and thought it'd be great to do over here on this side of the mountain, Skagit County.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. Council, any other questions at this point? No? Okay. Let's proceed.
My name is Stephanie Miller. I'm the health resource and coordination manager at Skagit, the existing Skagit Detox. I have a fully trained staff of about 16 people that I will be taking over to the new program with me. They have a lot of longevity, years of experience in what they do. We have very low turnover where we're at. So some of these people have been there, you know, 11, 12 years, and they know how to handle the population. They're in it every single day. I run 24-7 in the current program. We will run a 24-7 schedule model in the new program as well. So as far as my team, we have to hire very little. We will hire RNs and MAs as we get into the new program. And I'll be happy to assist and fully excited to be in that training and that process of onboarding our new hires and getting the system up, the program up and going. So we are very excited to stop living out of boxes and get in this beautiful building. And we look forward to working with everyone we can and being supportive and and with our expertise. So we're glad to offer it to Skagit County.
I'd like to add, if anyone wants a tour, just to contact me. We've been doing a lot of tours from everywhere and we'd be glad to host, to come on out and look at the building.
Okay, thank you. Can I ask you some basic, maybe sort of foundational questions? This facility is located just outside of Cedar Whalley, is that right?
Yeah, 1430 Highway 20.
So further west than United General, I think. Is that right? Yeah. Telecare is already operating on site and they're doing the involuntary. So that's a different building that was built a couple of years ago. Is that right?
Correct.
And is it all considered the Star Center? Is that building part of it as well? No. So it's simply a different facility located on the same site. Okay. So the involuntary has a different name. Do we know what that is called? Or is this called telecare?
Telecare.
After the provider who's contracted to do the service?
Correct.
Okay. Okay. So do you know how many beds are at the involuntary facility next door?
I think it's 16.
16. And I think 16 is the common number because it's related to some threshold under Medicare and Medicaid.
Yes, it's licensing.
Yeah. And how many beds at the new facility at the Star Center?
48. It'll be 16 in each program. There'll be three programs embedded into the whole building.
Okay, so again, that 16 number, but times three, okay.
Yes.
And are all of those a net additional set of beds, or are some of them being moved from other facilities?
Oh, so like, I guess, are you asking, like, is this going to take away- Well, like Detox was operating elsewhere before, right? Correct. So that will be, the Skagit Detox will not be there. Right.
right so how many beds did they have and 16 also 16 okay uh so of the new 48 at the star center how many are really new beds i guess is my question so that we're adding them yeah 32 the mental health crisis and the residential treatment are the two new programs okay Okay, thank you. Counsel, do you have any other questions?
No, Walter.
Mr. Young?
Hi. I really appreciate the effort that's going into beginning to address this looming need we've had for forever and um what i'd like for you to speak just a little bit on is um i guess the need here in skagit county are you know i guess as drugs as issues um mental health issues continue to rise you see it as a growing thing and then um And then trending wise, it's sort of like the dualic center on one hand, when they were getting ready to come, people thought, why would we need it? But then before they could even really get it open, they were at capacity and then already with three subsequent growths. So, you know, it... people weren't sure we had as much of a problem. It's sort of the denial of really where we are. And what I really appreciate about this is that it begins to address some of those inherent needs that we have. But my question, I guess what I'm hoping for the public as well as myself, to understand more about the trend. Are we seeing more meth? I think, as you were saying, or someone was saying in their conversation, but we're seeing more methamphetamines. We're seeing more of this trend. And if you would speak just a little bit on that, it also, I think, enlightened why this is so important and why you have the three different sections to be able to move people to.
So, Megan, I'm going to talk about the residential that I oversee in Everett, and then I'll ask you can answer some of those. So I oversee North Sound Behavioral Health Treatment Center in Everett. That's a residential program, and we're running a capacity... Every day I have overbookings. There's at least 15 to 18 referrals a day I'm getting there. We're booked out until the third week of July. So that kind of gives you an idea of what is needed. And in my Everett program, clients come from everywhere. So that gives you kind of an idea. Megan can talk. Yeah. Yeah.
No, you're answering my question. I guess what I was anxious to also hear is that will we be taking referrals from also outside of the area? Let's just say Everett is full, but then they have someone they want to refer for treatment. If we have a bed open, would we take that? My spouse is in medicine or was in medicine. So that was always an issue trying to find beds and trying to make sure people can get them.
Yes, we will. Yeah, and we do that. Yeah, we do that at all our sites, you know, take from other counties all the time. But to address your kind of the trends, it's kind of interesting that you're bringing this up. I was just at the Washington Society of Addiction Medicine this past weekend. So we did talk about some of the trends here in Washington state. I mean, as we see, overdose deaths still are coming from, you know, fentanyl is still remaining the higher dominant drug. trend, but methamphetamine has actually been more on the rise with the use there. But overdose deaths have started to trend down, but they're still the dominant, right? You're going to see more of the overdose deaths in regards to fentanyl than you would methamphetamine. There could be some unintentional ones with methamphetamine. There's mixed with fentanyl. But definitely, methamphetamine is kind of starting to be on the rise. Less injections, like doing IV use. We're seeing more smoking use. And I'm just trying to think of And, you know, a lot of it is, I think you were talking about also moving into the programs I want to address, you know, moving from one program to another. We see it a lot where people come in, they're, you know, using substances, but then they're also in a crisis. And how we manage it over in Spokane is we address the detox because, you know, that Physically is something that we need to address right away. We will address their mental health issues. We will also, a lot of times we move them from, so let's say they need a longer stay with us. We're working on the detox and then we will switch them over to our crisis stabilization unit if we need to continue to maybe start them on a new mental health medication that we need to do some monitoring or they're still in their crisis, they're suicidal. We will then, you know, move them over there once they're more stable medically in their detox. We have flex beds that we have done over. And I mean, I'm probably going a little farther than I need to. But if our but detox seems to always fill up pretty quickly. So we had to we had some flex beds that we used in the crisis stabilization process. for more of maybe someone that's in psychosis but it's could be meth induced we're not sure you know could be drug induced so we would put them in there because they're in psychosis but we're not concerned so much medically with them for the withdrawal management part so that's how we do that
You've answered my question. You really have. It's been absolutely enlightening. So, yeah, I totally get it. Thank you.
I did want to inject just from stats that we got for the first quarter of the year. Pioneer as a whole has served almost 50 to 100 people. just in the first quarter alone in the state of Washington. So that really shows you how far and how deep mental health and addiction goes. That number is huge. So we really can't ignore it or say it's not a problem.
Ms. Kuhlman-McGrath.
Thank you. First of all, I want to say thank you for all coming here. It's really helpful. I know that with the North Star program, you know, we get requests for funding, but we don't always get to see the folks that are actually doing the program. So this is really helpful for not only council, but for the public. I also was able to attend the ribbon cutting, and the facility is absolutely incredible. You should totally go see it if you get an opportunity. It's beautiful. It's safe. It feels like somewhere that is inspiring. There's natural light. There's outdoor space. It's secure, but it does not have the – negative association that you, I think, historically would think of when you're going through one of these, this process. So I'm excited to see this up and running. I have a couple of questions I think that are helpful to talk about or to ask if you guys can give clarification. One thing that was brought up, I think that council member Young asked, Um, and it was a, it was a, it was an, uh, point of contention or concern when this project was first starting was, Hey, if we're going to put this in our County, shouldn't, uh, County residents have, um, access to it? And do we really want folks from other areas coming and using our beds, right? Do we want to reserve them? And we got a really clear answer, especially from our social worker that works with our police department and our community paramedic about the fact that they personally came and told us, explained to us that, no, they've helped folks on the street who are in Anacortes and there was nowhere to take them. And they would call up and down the I-5 corridor and trying to find a bed that would provide the services that that specific person needed. So I think that it's really important that we think more regionally, that we've got to put whoever is in most crisis in a bed, wherever that bed is available. And yes, we want to have those beds locally so that the person in crisis can have access to family and, you know, their support system. But if the bed is in Everett or the beds in Spokane or wherever, get that person the help they need when they're willing to accept it. So that's kind of my little soapbox. So my other question is, you know, one thing we're hearing is how will this affect emergency rooms? You know, we're hearing that they go to the emergency room, then that's really making it difficult for other folks who are having issues. things that are easier for an emergency room to deal with than these situations. Can you talk about a little bit how that works or it's going to improve that process? Police drop off. And then my second question is, we committed some of our funding to get this program up and running faster, which is great. But can you explain a little bit how the program will continue to be funded? I'm assuming I know, but I think it's good for the public to hear how that'll work. And then finally, how long will patients be able to stay in these programs? And then where will they go once they've completed that program? And I think... Yes. So if you guys could talk to those three items, I'd appreciate it. I'll talk to the first couple.
So or OK, I'm going to go for the last one first. The length of stay is for detox. three to five days, but we can also if they're showing, you know, medical necessity to stay longer, we can request for longer with insurances. And then when it comes to same with that's the same with the crisis stabilization. If we need to keep them longer, we need to just show that they're, you know, medical necessity to need to stay longer. The co-occurring is 28 days. So it's a 28 day program. And then when it comes to law enforcement drop-offs, it's really important. And Mary could speak to some of this too, but it's really important. And Mary has done, her team has done a great job with connecting with law enforcement. But yeah, so, Having a good relationship with law enforcement is huge. And that that is what we have found over in Spokane to be a really big driver there because it initially was supposed to be a law enforcement only drop off facility. Well, then we found we actually weren't getting enough people coming in, so we had to open up the doors more. So then now it's very, you know, it's changed. but um but yeah so law enforcement you know that is the thing you know we want to keep our you know time i think they had an average of like three minutes or five minutes maybe that um it would take for law enforcement to come and drop off someone um at our facility in spokane So that is the same goal that we have over here is to, you know, be just just working closely with law enforcement. And then when it comes to ERs, we our goal is that they come to us first, that they don't go to the ER first. If unless, you know, we, you know, in the ambulance or they feel like they're, you know, they need to be more medically stabilized. You know, we don't necessarily offer like IVs currently and we are working towards some of these progressions. So everything's oral medications. We will take someone that has just overdosed. Right. And let's say their vitals are stabilized. Right. And they're not needing, you know, to be on oxygen and whatnot. We will bring those individuals in. So our goal and when someone's in our facility, we try not to send them to the ER unless it is absolutely necessary. We feel like they need the ER. And that's, you know, based off of our providers, you know, discretion on what they're seeing that needs to go in. We draw labs. We're keeping an eye on them there. But yeah, so we really are trying. That is our goal is to keep the ERs safe. You know, they're busy enough. And if we can help them, you know, with detox and mental health crisis stabilization, that is that's where we're at. And then I'll let Mary speak to the financial stuff.
OK, so our programs, all the clients usually have Medicaid and we have ASO funding and. That's the majority across our programs in Pioneer. That's how we're funded. And then I wanted to say that what I've done mostly with law enforcement and my interactions with them has really has defined the new program as a behavioral health emergency room. So that having that idea that behavioral health, this is an emergency room for behavioral health. There's a place that they can come instead of the emergency room because lots of times clients end up there in behavioral health or detoxing. That's not really what the hospital's for. They should come to a specific program to identify those needs and work with the supports that we have, clinical team, medical team, and then Stephanie's team.
I'd like just to add, it was mentioned about they complete treatment, then what's next? So that's why the clinical team works really well with referrals. We work with Oxford House, New Earth Recovery, Rise Recovery. There's a handful of other places in Snohomish County and Bellingham. that we collaborate with. So we utilize our supportive housing specialist and then try to find funding resources that will help them with their first initial one to three to six months of sober living.
Okay, thank you. Council members, any other questions?
May I welcome you?
Yes, Ms. Moulton.
I just want to say thanks so much for being here. This has been super informative. I've taken lots of notes, and I really look forward to doing a tour.
Awesome. We look forward to it. Just reach out to me. I believe that I gave profiles to Jennifer of the program in Everett as well as the new program, and I believe that my contact information is on there. Just email me, and we'll set it up.
Well, thank you for your time. We really appreciate it.
Thank you. Have a great night. Thanks for having us. You too. Thanks. Good night. Bye. Bye.
All right. Our next item of business is item 6B. It's interlocal agreement with Skagit County for the Senior Services Program. Mr. Lunsford.
Mayor Walters Council members audience members, I have Mr will swinkle here with me from the senior Center so you have approved many interlocal with the county for the senior Center. This one is a little different in the cleaves the centers programs from the meal programs this one before you tonight does not have the meals program in it is just for the services that the staff in this the staff provides at the Center so. The meals one will come to you probably next Monday with the Schedule Council on Aging. So this one is different. You can see that Mr. Hogan budgeted for this in his revenue forecast for the year. This is a little more money than we had expected. which is because the county in our conversations, myself and Mayor Walters, they pledged to fund all cities the same to the best of their ability. So this is approximately exactly what the other cities who have senior center services are getting as well as Anacortes. In the past, we got a little bit lower, but now we've been working with the county on parity. And so what you're getting now is half the year's budget. It's very similar to what other cities in the county are getting, essentially half an FTE. So I'm here with Mr. Wolfswinkle to answer any questions you might have, but the goal is for us to have you approve this so we can send it back to the county to get this in order by the 1st of July.
Mayor Walters. Ms. Bolton. This is pretty straightforward and good news on getting more money than we expected. So I am looking for the motion. I move that city council authorize the mayor to execute the ILA as presented in the packet for the senior services program from July to December 2026.
I have a motion and a second to approve the interlocal agreement as presented. Any discussion? None. All right. You're just going to take the money. All those in favor, say aye.
Aye.
All those opposed, say no. The ayes have it, and the interlocal agreement is approved. right our next item is 6c contract modification for our 17th street drainage improvement project they are always improvement projects aren't they good evening mayor good evening city council members um i'm aaron esterholt stormwater program manager
Real quick, I just want to refresh everybody's memory on this. This came last year when we spoke to you guys initially about this project. Right here off of Q Avenue, this is an open ditch storm channel. Problems we have with that ditch, it's really flat and it gets grown with vegetation. We have to continually muck it out. If not, it will cause the water to stop and then back out back on the q avenue so that's an issue that we've been having with this just this portion of of this uh storm facility once mjb project goes in when they build we will not have access to get back there so we want a hard pipe I keep moving the arrow, sorry. We want to hard pipe this section right here to where we'll hook up to where it's piped already. This will allow us to do maintenance year-round on it. The second part of this project is the outfall. Our outfall is about right where the arrow's at. We want to move the outfall down closer to the beach. This will also help when the trail comes through. We won't have to deal with that and worry about... at flushing out. So while we've been in the design progress, we learned during our pre-op that we need floodplain permitting and a shoreline substantial development permit. We also identified shoreline restoration and tree planting work that will help us obtain our permits. So we had to change our scope of work from the original scope of work So we're asking for another $24,150 so we can finish getting this project done so we can get ready for bid. So I'll ask if you guys would be OK to OK that.
Mayor Walters.
Ms. Hunt.
Mr. Esterholt, is this going to affect the time for the project to get all these permits that we have to pay for now?
we're hoping we want to get it done this year. So that is our goal. Yes.
Okay. So, but speed is of the essence. I'm God. Yes. Thank you.
Anyone else?
No. Well, it's young. Um, you know, always I like to pay compliments to the hard work of our staff to go to make sure that things are done, done well, educating the public. And it's always, you know, at least for me, I love seeing that. And it really, I think, benefits the public to know that not only is the staff approachable, but, you know, given the best of the best that they can do in order to make a decision. And, you know, And sometimes, you know, again, that you can win or lose on that because everybody's not going to be happy. But the goal is to make sure things are done. And you've always done that. And I really appreciate that. Short of any other questions anyone may have. I'm going to move that the city council authorized the mayor to sign a contract modification with Osborne Consulting Inc. under contract 25-166-STM-001 in the amount of $24,150, increasing the total contract price to $168,810. Okay.
Second. We have a motion and a second to approve the contract modification for the 17th Street Drainage Improvement Project. Any other questions or discussion on this item? Hearing none, we'll proceed to a vote on the motion to approve the contract modification for the 17th Street Drainage Improvement Project. All those in favor of approving the contract modification for the 17th Street Drainage Improvement Project say aye.
Aye.
All those opposed to approving the modification for the 17th Street Drainage Improvement Project say no. The ayes have it. And the contract modification for the 17th street drainage improvement project is approved. Thank you.
Thank you.
Our next item is six D contract award for the Ben route skate park restroom and parking lot project.
Mayor Walters council members. Here we go, so the skate park location is at roughly 22nd and our avenue is shown on the map. This layout is pertinent to our discussion because, sorry, I have to skew your neck a little bit, but it's facing towards the top of the page, which is north, and the Thompson Trail is to the east. And you can see at the bottom of the page where we want to put our new parking lot and restroom in relationship to the existing skate park. So you have the contract before you tonight. It has a couple new sections. Well, they're both important, but the most relevant to my conversation now is item three, the delivery. So we've gone back and forth with the company, CXT. I should note we have three CXT units in the city, and they've been delivered with no problem whatsoever. The company has been taken over by a new entity called LB Foster, and they have more specific requirements in their contracting. So that was a bit of this issue. pertaining to the deliveries. You can see in this schematic that when the new parking lot is created, we'll bring in the travel trailer with the unit, the CXT unit, it's their heaviest unit, and they'll position their crane as shown and then swivel it from the trailer onto the building pad. We have worked with Mr. Lee's group in engineering to sequence the contract with the help of Ms. Mattson in the legal department to make sure that it's not finished pavement when they do this so that we can scuff it up without destroying our final product. So that'll be the sequencing that we'll be doing. We're also meeting with the contractor's crane operator in a couple weeks to So that this is very standard for us to do this. We did this with the columbariums or remember at the cemetery we had to make sure we could get it from the low boy to the site. So sometimes we have to come back to you with a mod even though we just approved a contract because the crane needs to be of a certain size. We don't know that until we get the operator there even though we've had the building sales people there already. So the goal is to have you approve the contract so we can order the unit from CXT, which is, as you've noticed, they've been doing some work down there because our relationship with MJB, who now owns the site of the current restroom, they have, I think, until September to take that down per the contract. So our desire is to get this on the production line at CXT. Excuse me. And then we will probably have it in place, we estimate, in October as soon as we get the bid out to you. So this is one of the pieces that's all falling in line for us to start a new building project for the parking lot, develop a pad for the restroom, deliver the restroom, finish it off. And the skaters can all be happy. You could have a port-a-potty there for the month of September while this is all coming together. Our apologies in advance to the public for that fact. And this is the paragraph that we discussed, item three, the installation requirements. We worked with Ms. Swetnam's office to dial this down and make it acceptable to us. And then this is the red line version of the number 25, the right to terminate. You can see with Ms. Swetnam's agreement, we eliminated the last half of that. If there's any questions, I'll do my best to answer them.
Council, any questions?
Mayor Walters? Mr. Fantini. Just one question. Thank you very much for all the explanation around why everything changed. Not everything, the specifics. My only question is right now there is not a date in here in that contract and i just wanted to make sure that we would have a date in that contract before the mayor signs it if if it's approved uh the modification is approved because there's a 30-day trigger and a 90 trigger that then incurs a storage fee of 1.5 i have full faith in what you're telling me that We're confident that we're not going to have any issues there. That's what I'm hearing. But I just want to make sure that there's a date of delivery in there before it's signed.
Sure. I can work on that with the contractor.
Okay, and then one other question. I just want to make sure, and again, since it's new for us, clear level site access, 10-foot distance, all of that stuff, we feel very confident that all the conditions that they're talking about are currently met or will be met by the time that delivery window opens.
Right. So these, these are the, in the other three deliveries that we've had, we've addressed all those issues. That's why we have the operators come. So we worked with Mr. Lee and his group to make sure that the radius is they're talking about would work in the delivery. So the one that was delivered down at the Depot, that was two units that come on the low boy and they put them, they lift them off and they put them in place. And then they had to cinch those together. This is essentially half of that unit for a, two restrooms in it. And so we're confident we can make that work. Washington Park, we had a similar drop-off. Storvuk Park, we had a larger unit drop-off. We're experienced accepting this product. We're experienced making it work. There are always small issues to address, but we've been able to do that, and that's why we have the operator come. So like I said, you could see a modification to this contract if we need a larger crane. And so, again, the note to the public is, you know, our goal is to have it by ordering it. It's usually a three-month production. Some people order, and then they ask them to hold, and then it costs them to hold, and then we incur another cost. We've been guilty of that ourselves. We've had other parts of the contract go sideways. We're confident that we can get that together and make that work. Thank you. It's a very relevant question, Mr. Fantini. Thanks for asking it.
To address one of these questions, we do have a time of completion clause in the contract requiring the work to be complete by the end of this year. I think that the storage costs kick in, as Mr. Lunsford was alluding to, if we slow down the delivery for some reason. Obviously, we want it installed before December 31, but I think, Mr. Vantini, your concern was the storage costs, which are within our control. Then we won't modify for that, okay, all right, good. All right, thank you. Any other questions or discussion?
Mayor Walters?
Ms. Hunt.
Mr. Lentzer, this doesn't pertain to the CXT specifically, but I know that we are getting ready to remove the existing restroom. Can the bicycle bike rack migrate to the new restroom?
Thank you for that question, Neil. We'll move the bike rack and probably add other bike racks to the new skate park parking lot because people like to park there. And if you look at the design here, you can see that the new restroom will be here adjacent to the trail and there'll be a path to and from. So the goal is that people can ride and access just like they do now. And so it's just a little further down the trail and we can have bike parking there as well. So That's our goal, to move that there and keep that artistic piece in view of trail users and accessible for them to use.
Thank you, Ms. Hunt.
All right. Thank you. Council?
Mayor Walters?
Ms. Hunt? Ms. Hunt?
I move that city council authorize the mayor to sign the updated contract 25136PRK003 with CXT Inc. in the amount of $188,577.77 for the Ben Root Skate Park Restroom and Parking Lot Project CXT unit.
Second.
I move a motion and a second to approve the contract award for the CXT bathroom unit. Any other discussion? Hearing none, I'll call for the vote on the motion to approve the contract award. All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no. The ayes have it. Contract award is approved. Thank you, Mr. Lunsford. Our next and final item is a contract modification for the Commercial Avenue Enhancement Project. Mr. Lee will present this item.
Good evening, Mayor, Council, and members of the public. Tonight I bring for you a contract modification for the Commercial Avenue Enhancement Project in the amount of $64,810 with Osborne Consulting. So as a reminder, Our current scope includes, it's essentially a paving project for South Commercial from 14th Street to 34th Street that due to WSDOT requirements and working with WSDOT also requires us to install around 120 new ADA ramps and push buttons, as well as new channelization, including bike lanes. And the current design also includes traffic bull bouts at 29th Street. On the image in front of you is the existing and proposed cross sections. Parking will remain. Lanes will get a slight bit narrower, and we'll make room for bike lanes. And so some good overall changes. And once again, channelization is a requirement of WSDOT. This project has to go through their approval process, and that's what we are, kind of the stage we're currently at. What we want to... modify this contract to include is traffic bulb outs at 17th, 22nd, and 32nd. These are the signalized intersections. This modification will include the design of these bulb outs, including adjusting and designing the stormwater improvements, new ADA ramps, and modifications to the push buttons at each signalized intersection. Including bump outs into the design was identified in our safety action plan as a potential area in need of improvement. And this is also relevant because including improvements like this makes us more eligible for grants such as the Safe Streets and Roads for All implementation grant. one of the grants that we're targeting with this project. As we continue to look for how we're going to fund this project in the future of actually constructing it, it's important to make this project as competitive for grants as possible. So that is the intent. And just at the bottom below, I included a little summary from our – comprehensive safety action plan showing their kind of assessment of the south commercial area, the amount of accidents, all the reasons on why it is included in that action plan and that some of the issues that these bulb outs will prevent at the various crossings on south commercial. So I'm happy to answer any questions that you got.
Thank you, Mr. Lee. Counsel?
Mayor Walters. Ms. Malta. Thank you, Mr. Lee. I'm curious how the bulb outs and the bike lanes overlap or don't. Not being a fan of bulb outs as a bicyclist and also just want to recommend continually that Q Avenue is a much safer place to ride your bike than commercial, at least commercially. South commercial. Um, and so I'm, I'm curious about that. And then I have one more question.
Yeah. So I just, uh, I flipped back to the, the, the bulb outs that we currently have designed at 29th street. And so the, the bulb outs only extend to the bike lane. So it won't cause bike lanes to merge with traffic. That is going to be the intent at, I mean, there's always some stormwater drainage issues to make sure that everything plays out correctly, but that is the intent of the design for the other intersections as well.
Okay, I also want to say that I'm in favor of narrowing the car lanes because I think that that's a really good traffic calming device, whether you're riding a bicycle or not. Also for pedestrians and the drivers themselves. Thank you for that. My other question is about the FLIR thermal detection camera system. Is this different than what we have now and will it be more effective for pedestrians
moving traffic more efficiently in both or all four directions just just an upgraded camera system at those intersections just modern technology it it won't we're not read we're not changing the signalization of the current intersections that's not part of the scope it's just a updated camera
So more effective than what currently exists?
I mean, yes, better, but like it won't change the Nate, like we're doing a 12th and commercial won't change the nature of the, the signal times or anything else can be adjusted in the, in the future, generally through working with wash dot, but we're not, we're not changing major. It's not a major change to the way the, uh, the intersection operates.
Okay. Thank you.
Mayor Walters is Fantini.
Yeah, a couple of questions. And mine is more from a just kind of like... I've had to do some more thinking about this because I've... So it feels like we've been talking a lot about Commercial Avenue, like for a long time, like we were going to repave it. There's been a lot of adjustments, a lot of modifications. So my first question is, we started this at a contract at 120,000. We're now, if we approve this modification tonight, going to be at 318,000. Do we have specific grants that we're going to be going after for this project? And once we have this design, is there a clock on it? For example, we've spent a significant amount of funding already. Do they stamp an expiration date on those designs?
Not that I'm aware of it. Once we wash out approval and the plans will sit as a good, ready to build for as long as we need them. I mean, as if you're talking like major long timelines, projects, designs do get stale just with as new safety standards or new ADA standards come out. That's in like a 10 year span. I mean, for our case specifically, this project could, we could sit as we work towards different granting or different funding mechanisms for a few years without any issue.
Okay. And again, I'm asking that question because I feel like I'm losing track a little bit of what we're wanting to do kind of as a council. Because I know in the packet, it talked about, you know, we had said in January in 2025 that we wanted to proceed with this project without grant funding. And I know that we have since kind of reversed direction on that a little bit, and I believe appropriately so because of our budgeting situation. But what I'm starting to worry about is that if we're having all of these modifications that come and add up and we don't have an immediate ability to put them into play, I guess I just am – I don't have as much knowledge in – and if you can shed any or the mayor or – on like is it great to be spending all this money when we don't have a dedicated funding source because for instance when we did uh 12th and commercial we spent a lot of money change directions a couple years later i'm just i just wonder if it's time for a bigger discussion around kind of our um our transportation and how we're going about all these these designs
So there are a lot of advantages to having a shell ready project that hits some of those benchmarks. Um, we do have a few, well, the main grant we have in mind is the safe streets for all grant application. Um, other, uh, you know, next grant cycle, there'll be, there'll be more, we haven't identified more past that point. It helps us be more competitive for that, including when you can link it back to a actionable plan as much as our safety action plan. Um,
Mayor Walters, I think you're doing exactly what we're asking you to do. My question really is for us on council and how we're kind of looking at all of this overall. So thank you.
Mayor Walters?
Ms. Hunt.
Mr. Lee, is it true that when we have the entire design, including the new intersections, completed, you then go and get washed up to sign off on this so that it is in fact shovel-ready? Can we then build only a portion? Can we use this design to build only a certain number of blocks if we can get funding for partial?
I think that's a potential possibility, yes.
Okay, so we're not all in and we don't lose the design if we build only part of it in the next five years.
Yes, I mean, that's a potential route, yes.
Thank you.
Mayor Walters.
Mr. Young.
Part of this thing that we as a city, as we begin to look at other avenues of funding to reassess where we are with what we thought in a different light when we had you know, lots of money coming in, it allowed us to look at things very differently than we're having to do now. I think part of what we're hoping for and that you're delivering to us is the continuation of the improvements that we need, the planning, in order for us to make decisions later as do we go forward or do we not. and i think part of what i'm i'm again very happy about as we navigate these um economic times that we're in i appreciate that we're looking for additional resources whether it's grants i think we brought up the idea of at some point you know continuing to have uh staff or even you know people work with us in order to try to find those additional grants that we have and again The hard part in my work history is having minimal staff that's already working their gluteus maximus off. That's a technical term, in case you didn't know. But what I appreciate about it is that we're still looking, too, and we are asking more of you guys, but I appreciate you lifting and reaching to try to make that happen. So I know you are. But yes, thank you. And last thing, too, I'd like to add, you know, as we go forward, I know we at one point when we were talking about bike lanes and, you know, narrowing of roads and sometimes those decisions about for a biker or someone that's not in a car where to take the bike. So at some point, I would love, once we have this discussion, to be able to talk about maybe in those specific narrowing spots, we may use a green paint with, you know, of some type to just indicate to the biker or someone that's not in the car, this is the path you should take over this intersection going forward. But, you know, again, that takes money and, you know, other thought. But thank you for the thought that you've put in to this whole thing. I appreciate it. Mayor Walters. Mr. Currier.
Just a couple of thoughts. I like the point that Council Member Fantini brought up as far as looking at the long-term approach to this. Also, like Ms. Hunt's point about being able to do this in sections if we needed to. To me, it looks similar to like the Anacortes streetscapes plan where we have options. And we do know that driving economic vitality downtown and getting there in a smooth way, it's all important. I guess my question would be, you feel pretty confident that this last expenditure would get us where we need to be, it sounds like? Or what level of confidence do you have that there would be another money asked to get this over the finish line?
Yeah, I mean, to be fully transparent, this modification will address some safety concerns that the public was noted on our safety action plan, that our traffic consultant who developed the plan noted there were safety issues. And I also think that it will make us more competitive for grants because of that link and being able to link it to our our safety action plan, but it's not a, it's not required to do the, to do the project. Got just as a reminder, this, the, the concept of this project was basically to pave South commercial and the, the requirements kind of built on there. So we, we, we required to do the ADA ramp rebuilds and we're required to do the new push buttons at the signals. This isn't a requirement of washed out. This is a additional requirement. that we're kind of adding to address safety concerns, make the project more competitive for grants.
And that makes sense to me. And I mean, I think it's worth discussing, you know, at some point, do we hire a grant writer for the city to work on these projects, right? There's all this hard work going in here. And I think some local cities have had success with that. I know it's a whole deeper discussion, but I think grant money is really important and thinking ahead is important. and not over committing at a time where we're lean is important. But no, thank you for that.
To expand on what Mr. Lee was saying there in response to Mr. Fantini's rightfully pointing out that at one point we thought we would do this project on our own as the money that we would use to do this project on our own looks further away from us. We're looking to figure out how to do this project with other people's money. So that requires us to, I mean, not strictly required, but we are more likely to have success with that approach if we add these features to the project. But at the moment, we are not planning to do this project with our own funds because they don't exist.
Mayor Walters?
Ms. Hunt.
I do notice that we've paid Osborne already nearly the current contract amount before this mod, which means they're pretty close to done except for adding these bulb outs.
Yeah.
Do you expect more design mods for this?
More design mods? No.
Okay. So Osborne should be pretty done once they do this work.
Yeah.
Great. Thanks.
Mayor Walters.
Ms. Kalina McGrath.
Thank you. I appreciate the question about whether this project has had a creep of the parameters, but I do think that the identified intersections are incredibly important that have been added to this contract modification. I mean, I think we see people every time you drive down commercial, there's someone waiting at these intersections to try to cross the street. and we want to continue to encourage. I mean, one is kind of very close, you know, 32nd is really important. 29th, I think we see a lot of folks walking on that one because it's, you know, Storvick Park goes between 32nd and 29th. We also start to see the 22nd is like the roundabout gets you on Tommy Thompson Trail. It also kind of goes up to the middle school and the high school. I think these are really key intersections that – makes pedestrians, it really increases pedestrian safety without having to add intercept, um, um, traffic lights or things like that because we've kind of talked about that. Also, we're not trying to add more roundabouts, which I think some people are a little hesitant to have more of. But as long as the bike lane maintains its integrity through these intersections going north-south, at least it doesn't look like it'll probably – there won't be bike lanes going east-west, but north-south is important. I hope that we can try to go out for one of these intersections – per funding cycle or something such as that, depending upon what feedback we get. I also think these are really easy ones to take with our lobbyists to the state and say, hey, here's a really easy ribbon cutting that's going to help our park area, our parks, community parks, our safe streets, safe routes to school, and all of those things. I wish we could have just Wish we could have just paved commercial really quickly. But ultimately, I think this finished product and the fact that paving only lasts a finite amount of years, and then we're going to have to pave again, which I think we all initially thought, you pave it and we won't have to worry about it for who knows when. In reality, paving only lasts what, 10, 10 or 12 years or something like that. I'm probably 30. Yeah.
It'll last long. The reason that the state hasn't, isn't intending on paving commercials because it has a concrete subgrade. So it's more, a little more resilient, but you get 30 to 35 years. Okay.
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