Planning and Zoning Meeting - Regular Meeting

Yeah.

So, um before we get started, I just wanted to let you know we talked about having another meeting uh later this month on the third Thursday is our normal night. I talked to a city mentor and the developer did not meet the deadline for suspending that. So, you don't take that off their calendar. So, if you have marked, we're not going to meet then. Uh, so that meeting will probably be in January, I guess. So, uh, the other thing is Bob Froggy moved out of the area, so we have an empty position here. We do have somebody that's going to be appointed. Scott Pennington asked to be on there. He's an engineer living in town. He'll be perfect for the board. That'll be on the on the agenda for the city council meeting on Tuesday. So, today we have two items. One's a text amendment. Another one's a site plan review or a what is it? approval stage two plans for development that we've uh have been working with the developer on on 7th Avenue. And I'm going to turn it over to Kirk to kind of put on the presentation on both those uh items.

Okay. Thanks, Jake. So, we're going to do the um our our applicant for the stage two plan isn't here. We're going to do them second in case they're just delayed, you know. Um so, we'll start with the text amendment. This is PZ25-056. The city is requested us to prepare a text amendment. It's really just a little bit of editing to the zoning for the central business district zone. Curt, I can do a little explanation. The city requested this. We have a lot of properties downtown in our central business district. Is your mic on?

Yeah, I I'll talk a little a little closer. We have several properties in our downtown that were traditionally used for commercial uses, office uses, butcher shops, stores, whatever. Unfortunately, a lot of those uses are now being used for residential living or people are storing stuff in it. And we have people that want to come into the community and we don't have a place to go. So, a lot of those uses are grandfathered in. And so we had one we didn't think was Grand Berlin and they raised an issue saying,"Well, you allow single family residences in your central business district. So we think we should be able to put that on the first floor of a commercial use." And we said, "Well, single family residences are allowed because they were existing before it became a central business district. They said it doesn't make any difference." And it was said it was unclear. We also allowed them in the back of uh commercial spaces, but people started encroaching on the commercial space with the the uh residential in the back. So, we just thought, let's just let residential on the second and third floors, and if it's an historically um commercial building, we've asked to have the text amendment show that those can only be used for commercial uses. So, he'll he'll explain that a little more detail, but that's what we want to do. We want to try to encourage economic development downtown, but it's hard for us to do that if we have a zoning regulation that seems to be vague or inconsistent. So, we've asked to clean that up so we can start trying to get these empty storefronts filled with actual businesses rather than boxes.

Well, Jay pretty much summed it up there. I mean, really, it's a matter of you want to get the language of single family residents out of there. So, um, on the page two of the staff report, we've got the language that the city wants to put in there. Um, item number, well, it's paragraph C, permitted uses, which lists all the things. Now, central business district zone is commercial zone, so there's all kinds of stores and retail uses, office uses, things like that. But as you go down there, you do have these residential uses. Um, there was some tweaking to number three, which is residential dwelling units to to to really kind of focus on the second uh story and um you know on something that was historically built that way. Uh and then to just strike the the whole term single family residences out of there cuz that was a little gray because you know from a planning and zoning standpoint single family residence really is a house. Um but

and Kurt, there are houses there. People are living in those they're fine. They can continue living there. They just become pre-existing non-conforming uses and they as long as they continue to use it and they sell it to someone else to use it as single family home, that's fine. But if they someone bought it and it was converted into commercial space, they couldn't go back to a single family use. So I just don't think that people live in single homes are losing their right to live in those homes. They still can live there. They're just non-conforming. Is that right? That's correct. there continue is legal non-conforming lots. Um

so um basically that's the spiel. Um we did advertise in the paper. So legal notice went out. Um the recommendation is as written there. But if you have tweaks that you want to look at, we can talk about that because sometimes when we do text amendments, um people have a difference of opinion on how things are worded. Um but like I said this has been advertised um the staff recommendation is to approve um per KRS statutes 100207 and 211. The planning commission has the authority to recommend the adoption of tax changes to the city proper notice. So the recommendation is planning and zoning approves it and sends it to city council for um two readings and adoption. So, Mr. Chair, I I'll give it back to you.

Okay. You have any questions? Does anybody from the audience wish to speak? So, if it if the h if it is a regular residential house by structure, they it would be allowed to continue to exist as a regular house. I'm thinking of an old law office that used to that existed in the city where they well uh in that case um once you convert it to a commercial use like a law office you can't go back to a re a residential use but outwardly it has no no other appearance than a house

is it being used as a residential use now I do not know if it I converted if if they were using as resial use and it's been used that way for a certain period of time, they're allowed to continue to use it as a residential use. Um, but they go back if they convert from from residential to commercial. I have no idea if there's any remodeling done in on the inside. It was the old city attorney's office. Where was that? John Fischer. Yeah. Where was that? I don't familiar. Um decade ago is it on Vine like 10 10 years ago on Vine Street on Main Street.

It's on Main Street but it's near the intersection by Vine. It's on 6th Avenue but by Vine. Yeah, I think that's been converted into residential. The only commercial uses from um of other than the general commercial up there where the liquor store is, it was the old pharmacy. And then the next thing is a robing bookstore and where the foot doctor is. Those are the only commercial spaces. The other commercial buildings and that's outside the CBD that's in that's not the CBD stops stops right by uh McKenna. It goes residential one there, isn't it? Is it

residential? So yeah, in that R1J Yeah. In that case, that's a different zone than we're talking about. that is allowed to be okay. That's not a that's not central business district. So, all right. Those buildings can be used for residential there. Okay. Yeah. There's only like three commercial in that area from from general the general commercial area. There's only three buildings that are used for commercial uses until you get to McKini. Well, you got Baruski, too. Okay. Is there any other questions about this text amendment?

Yeah, I I want to clarify a little bit further on what you're asking. So, what constitutes conversion? Because I'm thinking of if I bought a one of these houses that's kind of near Hometown Heroes and taught music lessons out of the living room, but made no changes to the structure. Would that constitute a conversion or It's the It's the use. What is the use? So, you I didn't hear all that. Uh, if I chose to like teach private music lessons out of my living room in one of those houses in the CBD, would that constitute It depends. That could be a It could be a homebased business. Home based business. Yeah. When you refer to it as my living room, that implies you're living there. Yeah. So, that would be a homebased business. In which case, you're going to continue the grandfathered use as a resial.

Yeah. That was mostly what I wanted to do. But if you turn it into a music store where there's No. Yeah. No, that's a different story. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I think that's a more of a homebased type. Private lessons would fall under the homebased con. And that's a great example because that's exactly what I was thinking too, you know. Yeah, those are fine. You know, homebased businesses can exist in any residential zone. Okay. Yeah. Ready to entertain a motion to approve this text amendment PC25056. Is there such a motion?

I'll be glad to make a motion to accept PZ25043. I'll second. No, this we're talking about text amended 2556. Oh, my my bad. Yes, that's correct. PZ25056. I was jumping ahead. Is there a second? Yes, I will second. All in favor of the motion signify by saying I. I. Those opposed, same signal. Hearing none, the motion passed.

Bye, Dennis. Same by Dennis. Thank you, too. Bring your aame, Santa. [laughter] The next motion that we will be be considering is PZ25043. It's an applicant. The applicant is Cardinal Engineering. Uh this is an approval of stage two plans seven attached single family dwellings town homes.

Okay. Thanks, Chuck. Um, so this is the stage two plan. Um, so as part of the stage two plans, you're approving the the development, the houses. You're also going to be approving the preliminary plat, which is going to divide this lot into seven lots. Um, and then, um, there's public improvements as as well. Jay can speak more to the arrangement they have for that, but um we'll just start with the general overview of it. It's seven town homes. Um, in last year, the the developer came to the board of adjustments to get a variance on the lot widths because their minimum minimum lot size over here is 25 and they wanted to because those would be enormous town homes. So, they shrank they got a variance to um shrink the width of them to 20. And then um they also needed a variance which we should probably get into with the text because um of being attached they have zero setbacks. So they needed variance to do zero setbacks um which was approved um there at the same time thereabouts the city vacated some rideway and conveyed it to the developer to extend the existing property basically one more house wide. Um, and then, um, I guess I'll let Jay talk about the street later, but, um, it's it's a pretty simple, uh, plan. It's really just one big building,

but because they're single family attached, they're all on their own parcel. They all have their own parcel ID, so they're still single family by law. Um, but we're basically building a sevenunit building. Um there's parking in the rear um and [snorts] access through the the new the to be improved um Kenton Street um rideway. Uh in reviewing the the stage two plans, um we went through section nine, which is the check box, make sure it's at the right scale and the right submitt and the right items are are bulleted out and it did meet the zoning for that. Uh showing topography, uh ownership, all those kind of things. showing the um proposed improvements which are on page two of the staff report. At this point I don't have any building elevations um or a landscape plan. Um at this point I don't think there's going to be any signs uh because it's not like a subdivision that has a sign. It's just so I we don't have any signs to look at. Um, then we have that paved access on Kenton Street. Uh, and then we have a preliminary plat which is on page three showing the the the lots. Now, the outer lots are going to be 30 ft wide, so they're going to have a sideyard and then the inner lots will be 20t wide. [clears throat] Um, really it's a simple plan. Um, did you want to talk about the street, Jay?

Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about it. Um, I'm I'm sure I'm guessing you're all familiar where this is. It's on 7th Avenue. As you come down Dayton Pike, instead of taking a left into town, you take a right and it's there's a few buildings there and then there's a large empty lot there. That's where it's at. There's a little alley called Kinton Alley. It's really Kinton Street, but it's an alley that comes up next to this lot. And it's an access point. It's an emergency access point. So, when trains are on 6th Avenue and blocking that neighborhood, they can go through this alley to get back up on Seventh and get under the train trestle there. So our emergency vehicles can use it and people can use it to get there. The problem is this alley is in really bad shape. So we when we talked to the developer about this, we said, "Hey, we'll do this with you. We'll give you a little land to make this work, but you got to help us rebuild this alley." So we're splitting the cost of putting uh a concrete alley there, which is it's really poor condition right now. And we also are putting a drain. We have drainage issues there. We're going to put a storm drain there that's going to capture all the all the water that's in this alley, which has been a problem. So, um, that alley is going to serve the public, but also will serve this development. So, that the people who drive who live there will be able to go down the alley and take a left and go into their private development area. Then you take a right and go down the other alley which takes you over to Benham Street and then Benham down the sixth. So, um, we're trying the the development. I've looked at it. He's it's too early to get there now, but he's done preliminary plans. It looks like very nice development. Um, you're going to have a rooftop deck, going to have views of this of the river, uh, and the hillside in Cincinnati. Three floors. Um, looks like pretty, you know, high-end. So, we're pretty excited about it. We think it'll be a nice development. We thought we'd be a lot further along than we are right now, but SD1 got involved with making sure they had drainage, uh, proper drainage, and that took some time. So we thought we'd be, you know, six months ahead at that, but we're we are here

now. So we're finally coming to the point where okay, we're getting all the things done and development hopefully can start next year. So this is uh we have a development agreement with the U developer basically saying you're going to pay half of this project. ST1's going to kick in some money. So between the three of us, it'll be a lot cheaper than the city trying to do this ourselves. So hope that helps explain some of the thoughts behind it. My only concern is not having something in writing of what they are going to physically

well I mean they have to they they have shown us they they I don't know if we have it here but they've shown us preliminary drawings of the exteriors of the interior layouts and um that it looks like a good product. So, brick facade and uh I was gonna say garages underneath and so yeah, we yeah, that's part of the deal part of our development agreement. So, it's not siding or anything like that. Everything probably be Hardy Plank or something of that sort, I think. Okay. So, as long as they get held to that, well, we have to sign I think our developer requires us to sign off on approval of that. So, so the city's going to look at that when I think so. I have to look at

architectural stuff comes through. Peter question. Um, [clears throat] this Kenton Alley off of 7th as you're going toward the railroad tracks, you can pass through and get onto a 60 foot wide rightway of Kenton, I guess, street. Is that what that is? So Roy, you're talking about to the north. So if you're heading north, are you talking about the alley? We talking about the alley. You go down, go to the right or or

Well, I I'm assuming that if I'm looking on page two in portrait, the lower street is Seventh Street. No, that's the top up the hill. Up the hill. Top of the hill is Seventh Street. And then you go down, you go down the alley towards you go down this alley. You can you go down that alley and get to Kenton, I guess, street or whatever. Ken Street, Kitten Street beyond there is a paper street. It's not developed. Oh, it's not developed. Yeah. So, you can see you can see Kitten is what takes up two lots there. It's not developed. Only a half of Kitten Street uh is used as the alley and then you take a right and it's another small alley that goes to Benham Street.

Oh. Oh, that right. that's that would abut toward the back of the buildings but there's also an unnamed alley that's being seated to the developer right that's a city paper street too it's a very small alley only 11 ft I think so so this is effectively kind of a almost a dead end kind of situation it's not a dead end because you take a right down there you can see um after you go past the entrance on the left to the to the new development okay to the right there that kind of shows like a little angle there. That is a that's an existing alley, but it's just made of it's just a gravel alley and we're going to improve that once it'll be concrete all the way down to the bottom and it will stay gravel, but we're going to make that better. Uh

and then that that takes you to Denim. That takes us to Bum. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you. And then you can go down to Benham and then you can go to 6th Avenue. But the problem is 6th Avenue has a railroad cross. There's no there's no pass and then it can block, you know, traffic. So this is an access. This will right now this is really bad going down. The water has eroded it and it's it's really hard to maneuver. So we'd like to get it fixed up so we don't have that issue anymore.

Any other questions? Yeah. Being being new to this board and all this, when they say a stage two plan, uh is it typical that you know what's been submitted here wouldn't have architectural reference in it or is there a stage three where that happens? We don't always get architectural renderings in stage two plans because imagine a subdivision, it's got 90 [clears throat] um units in it. They're all going to look a little different. Um, but if you want to do some kind of condition to confirm, I know that you you're kind of wondering about what is it going to look like. That might be appropriate to add a condition. Yeah. Of your approval.

So that it is cuz when I what I saw was really just conceptual. I wasn't going to put it in a staff report because it wasn't what they're building. It was stuff sort of comparable developments in other places. Um, but like Jay said, there are going to be three stories, roof decks, that kind of thing to take advantage of the river view. Um,

I guess my question put another way is um are we approving not just the the plat as it's being described here, but are we also at this stage approving whatever they want to build? Yeah, it's the uh right the the the the seven unit building, the the the the um the new street and the preliminary plat. Those are the three kind of moving parts of this. And they've already been granted variances for setback and and lot with. So we don't have to do that at this point. So they'll be coming back to us at some point. No, they'll be going to No, this is the to board of adjustments. This is the final um

approval approval of of the development. Now, they're going to have to get building permits when they start constructing the building, but this is the last stage for them as far as the right planning and zoning commission. Okay. It's a little bit different than up on the river. They have what's called the Manhattan Review Architectural Review Committee where you actually look at all the improvements and you know, they satisfy this book they have. We don't have that in the rest of the city. It's only up there. So this is something we just do through the the building inspection process and does it meet you know standards. So we we have a little bit of control over that but not like we do up there on the on the river.

Yeah. And technically there's really no formal requirements. you know, some cities will have like architectural requirements for things, but we don't it's not it's really in in Dayton, it's just Manhattan Boulevard and then the um historic overlay along um but we have some control because of their development agreement. So, if we didn't have a development agreement, we would have very little control over this, but we have some control. This board wouldn't have some say in like how many stories they can build or anything like that. Well, there that's in the zoning code. Well, they are limited in height because if they wanted to Yeah, but you would have us say because if they wanted to do something for or higher, they need another variance, right? Gotcha. So, you would have a say that it at least

stays within the 35 [clears throat] ft height limit. Okay. That was going to be my question. Does the current zoning have a height? Yeah. Yes. Because we when they're actually coming off the road, they're going to have a story underneath basically and they will have entrance be two story from road. Yeah. So it's not going to really be look like that as tall as it is because half of it's underneath the road. Not half of one a part a port one floor is underneath the one story is underneath the road.

They're going to get inspected at every level. So although they haven't said it's going to be hardy plank or brick, that's their call. They get to do that. And then the inspectors at each turn, they're going to sign them off and check them off on electric. They're going to sign check them off on plumbing every step. I guess the concern is are you worried about what it's going to look like? I mean, like the very final I just think it's very open-ended. Well, there's not a law to to to enforce with aesthetics, right? That's the thing. And this body aesthetics are going to be appropriate uses and and whether it satisfies these requirements for the lots and stuff. So I don't think you all have the power to to come in and say what it looks like. Am I right on that?

That's correct. Yeah. No, like you Yeah. Manhattan Boulevard, you've got the archite board. If you had something like up there, you could that would be a separate entity that would do that or this they could say this body could do it if this city wouldn't change that. But that's never been something that you all had the power to to do. Sure. They're going to build in the historic district. You're talking a different church. They do have that. They have to get approval from Yeah. But they given you renderings. What's that? I've seen I've seen renderings. Is there a way that we can attach based on the renderings that have been presented just I don't know. What do you I mean I think we've got a cutter in the in the development agreement with with the developer. So,

I think that's the only teeth you have legally is the development agreement because there's nothing in the zoning and that's what you'd approve is does it meet the zoning and if it's painted polka dots and flat black, right? There's nothing to tell them they can't do. The only thing that I will say is I know I was told that we will not use certain materials in Manhattan Harbor and the county or city did nothing when the contractors did not meet those requirements. That's aggravating. That's an enforcement thing.

That's all I'm saying. So, if we know what is expected going in and they meet that, I'm happy with it. And I and I understand where we're coming from here as far as we're voting on the zoning to allow it to move forward. I totally get that. It's just very in my opinion, it's just very open-ended. If you could attach something in reference to what Jay I'm happy to share it with you, but you you really can't make a decision based on it. Okay. I mean after after this I mean you really can't consider that. That's not part of your role.

That's fine. um they they could change the statute if the city wanted to to make it party role, but you know, I don't know many planning commissions that have the right to dictate what a building looks like. That's usually done through the city or whoever the development agreement andor through um the building process.

Some of the aesthetic um things do come into zoning. I've seen some cities where they will not allow certain types of roofs. They don't want flat roofs. They don't want parapit walls. They want, you know, things like that. And that day doesn't have that. But that's about as um surgical as zoning is going to get until you get um historic districts or special some kind of special development thing like or the you know the architectural review board. But uh you know perfect example would be trash cans. Are they keeping trash cans inside? Is there a place for trash cans? Is it fenced in? Where's the electric going to be on the front of the building like that worked out when it was supposed to be on the side? Those are the only things I'm thinking through my head. That takes you from a very, very appropriate, good-looking environment to something that just looks like somebody threw something up.

I don't disagree with that. Okay, I'm good. I'm I have no problems voting on this whatsoever. I feel we have some control because we have development agreement. Now if we he didn't want something from the city, we wouldn't have had that opportunity. But he did. So we were able to get some concessions in return for giving him the right giving him some land to make this project happen.

Is there any other discussion on this motion mo this amendment? Hearing none, we'll accept a approval to to approve PZ25043. The applicant was Cardinal Engineering and with a requested to approval of a stage 2 plan 7 attached single family dwellings, town homes. Is there a motion to approve this amendment? Um, I motion to approve PZ25043 from Cardinal Engineering to approve stage two plans for seven attached single family dwellings.

Roy, can you include the approval of the preliminary plat as well? I'm sorry. Can you include the approval of the preliminary plat? Sure. And that should include the preliminary plat.

All right. We have a motion on the floor to for the approval of PZ25043 an approval of stage two plan seven attached single family dwellings with approval of the preliminary plat. All in favor signify by saying I. I was those second. Go ahead. Sorry. All right, [clears throat] go ahead. I didn't know the second one. I didn't hear the second. All in favor of this motion signify by saying I. I I.

Those opposed the same sign. Hearing none. Motion passed. And just to add because I know there was some concern what we caught at the very tail end there, but when you see the level of investment that these folks are making and then their willingness to cooperate and collaborate with the city government to accommodate how they're going to handle pouring of concrete and making it a road even that much better than it was before, you have faith. And guess what? What you're referring to, that's after punch out. That's that's that's after people start moving in. That's like an HOA administrator type what you're referring to. But he's also got to track people here. So he's got to do a good product.

Yeah. So you don't want to scare people off by, you know, giving them a high, you know, because they're going to they're going to probably pay an HOA fee being close to as they are or something similar to that because they're going to be taking care of, you know, front, sides, back, but that's something to bring up with their HOA person. The builder's got no control over that for the most part unless that's, you know, specifically asked for. So you have faith and then you work with them after the fact if something pops up down. Well, I understand Jerry's concerns because we've had some issues up at the other place up on the up on the Avenue where they were supposed to be doing, you know, things a certain way and then we catch them not doing it. Like think of the the blue

we had we caught him and said, "Hey, we called pling zoning say you come here and we they fixed it and so but they were going to put like ugly treated wood steps and it's like can't do that." So, yeah, but sometimes you got you got to catch them doing it. Is there any other business to be brought before the Dayton Planning and Zoning Commission this evening? Hearing none. Motion to adjourn. A second. Motion. [laughter] There you go. We'll go.

Do it the easy way. All who don't approve stays. [laughter] Thank you, gentlemen. All right, guys. Appreciate it. Happy holiday time into this. Appreciate it. It's been a long day. Happy holiday. Your retirement.

And uh I'm trying to use bankrupt. Oh,

okay. So, how are things going down there on the river? Yeah. Your neighborhaving or not? Same old same. Are they going to try to bring I'm assuming

well is enforcement of an incomplete project county sitting here doing it kind of audit thing permit issue thing or I mean what who who is the governing entity over over permits oh Cindy I mean they could like refuse to issue permits on future [cough] Hey Jay is Is this turned off? Is the stream turned off? Yes, it's

still well appate.