Auditor Selection Committee - Regular Meeting

Call to order. City of Northport Firefighters Pension Trust Fund Board of Trustees meeting. City Hall Room 244, 12/11/2025, zero nine hundred hours. Present, Chair, Terry Macbaugh.

Howard Birch, Trustee.

Doug Lozin, Foster and Foster.

Chrissy Stoker, Foster and Foster.

Jeff Treanor, Mayor. David House, Trustee.

Scott Dove, trustee.

Tim Robinson, trustee.

For

the record, Chief Titus is present as well.

And then do we have any right, sorry. Pledge allegiance. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. I pledge allegiance to the flag

of The United States Of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

So thank you guys for all coming here. It's a busy time of the year, I know, for everybody. Looks like we have one public comment card. Chief, if you'd like to speak do you want to speak first? Yeah. Happy to.

All right.

So Good morning. Scott Titus. I'm actually here in an unofficial capacity. I know that's hard to do, so I'm still a fire chief. I've been working with Victor Cleveland and his spouse. I think everybody knows kind of where he's at. And so she had asked me. We're trying to alleviate, obviously, as much stress from her as she can as they're dealing with these things. And so she's asked me to look into the benefits. And I know there was a estimated benefit package put forward.

I just had some questions on it. And I put some things together. And my basic question and premise comes down to this. So I understand that we can't look at what potential future earnings would be, like his highest five or his highest five as far as you know, when he passes. And unfortunately, that's the reality of where we are right now.

My question and what I would ask the board contemplate is when I read, the Florida statutes, obviously, it's, you know, relevant statutes are 01/1375. When I look at 01/1975, it says firefighter is covered under the 175 pension. They have at least ten years of credit and service, which he will or he does, and dies prior to retirement, which unfortunately he's going to, his beneficiary is entitled to benefits otherwise payable to the firefighter at early or normal retirement age. It doesn't specify which, but I would say probably the most appropriate and fiduciary responsible thing to do would be the earliest of those, which would be the early retirement date. When I look at the calculations for his credited years of service on the estimate that was made, it provides for a credited years of service of sixteen point six zero two seven.

If you take, the day that Victor was born, it was May 26 or excuse me. His, entry into service was 05/26/2009 At 50 years old I'm sorry. Birth date at 50 years old, it would be 03/08/2027. And when I look at the statute, my interpretation would be, and I would ask that you consider, and obviously, this is a legal interpretation. But to me, says at his early retirement date.

So I would ask the board to consider his early retirement date. It wouldn't be until that date, 03/08/2027, which would be seventeen years, nine months, and ten days, depending on whether or not you do three sixty five year calendar. If you do three sixty five point two five based on leap years, it would either be seventeen point seven nine four five years of service or seventeen point seven eight two three years of service depending on well, actually, it wouldn't even depend on the time of his passing if you were to credit it that way. I know that doesn't sound like a big difference between what we're looking at here, but in consideration of a 2% penalty per year for each of that, I would ask the board to consider that. I don't think there's any long term impacts. That's

Can I ask a question? Do you consider using March 27? I didn't hear I didn't understand the question, guess, is what you were asking us to do.

What I'm asking so when his benefit is calculated, the reality is we think we're probably at days or weeks, but it's sometime in December. If it were when this calculation was done, this was estimated at 16.6 and change. So again, the statute, the way the statute reads is it says, entitled to benefits otherwise payable to the firefighter at early or normal retirement age. What I'm asking you and saying is this at snow at early retirement age, his first opportunity to be able to retire would be at 50 years

old. Uh-huh.

So if you did calculation, that calculation is different than what is being proposed on here. So it's the difference between 16.6 and 17, how we do it, how that was done. Right.

Would you like me to help? Would love to. I of I talked to Terry. I invited myself. I figured there would be a lot of discussion on this. So I've done my best to give you a very quick summary. We can get into whatever weeds we need to. And I've talked to Paul. He's on with us. Paul, is it okay if I just take it from here and then you jump in as needed?

I was going to suggest that. Thank you for jumping in, Doug.

This is public comment.

This is public comment.

So let's we'll talk about pre retirement death benefits. There is an option to get benefits immediately beginning the first of the month following passing. That is available. So I wanted to start there. I'll get into some numbers in a bit.

But the way the benefits are we're talking, we're going to go down the path just of pre retirement death. I will swing back to line of duty disability. So I'm going to do these in chunks. And I want to read the room so I can give you a little piece of information and then you give me questions back. I don't want to overload you with information. I don't think I will. Pre retirement death benefits, we take the benefit accrued to date. So I've actually had Mr. Cleveland's estimate open on the portal right now using up to date payroll. And it all looks very reasonable to me. It all matches what the chief just went over the date of birth, service, all of that.

Excuse me,

like I'm out of the loop. Is it Mr. Cleveland?

Victor Cleveland, yes. What is the story? Terry, did you

want to of our members has a presumptive illness for cancer. He's been on a modified schedule for a little while. It appears that the cancer's going to take hold pretty well. It seems terrible at

this point.

It's just no matter how long. We're kind of discussing what that looks like as far as what benefits would the family be entitled to and how we can assist in this. Okay. Thank you.

Like Chief said, it's like days and weeks, Tim, not

years from now.

He's like at home with

hospice care.

I get it. Okay, thank you.

So as the actuary, I'm here to provide the board with all of the options that are available benefit. So if it's determined that it's pre retirement death, we would take the benefit accrued to date. And then that's one option. So if under that scenario, there would be no reduction, but it would be payable at when the member would have turned 55. Okay, so that's five years and some change out, six years.

And that would be payable for exactly 100 and payments to the beneficiary. So I'll just say the wife because we know that he's chosen his wife as a beneficiary. The other option is we could make it payable. Again, all of these options talking about it for 120 payments exactly ten years, 12 monthly payments for ten years, so 120. The other option is to reduce it for early retirement, which would be 04/01/2027.

That would be the accrued benefit to date reduced by 15% I'm sorry, 10%. I apologize. The early retirement reduction is 2% per year. It would be for five years. The other option is the first of the month following.

So let's say today was the day, then it would be 01/01/2026. There would be 120 payments. It would be the early retirement benefit, which I just discussed as the accrued benefit reduced by 10. We would need to take another 10% off that to reduce it to 01/01/2026. Terry and I had a discussion, then I swung over to Paul.

And I can advise that this scenario did occur previously, about eleven years ago with Mr. Newland. At that time, there was a request, is there any way to make the option that is not just 120 payments, that it would be for the life of the beneficiary? Now there would be a reduction that we have to create an actually equivalent. And the answer is yes, we did that for Newell and the state signed off on it.

Your prior administrator, Dave, had a discussion with the Division of Retirement and they had no concern with that. So that is another option that's available. All of the ones I've just went over, the accrued benefit at when Mr. Cleveland would have turned 55 or the accrued benefit reduced for early April one, twenty seven or

think

a the little

And that that's would be

payable more to his wife for her lifetime.

With Sorry, just to clarify. So the joint survivor, the early retirement, the 10% penalty would still apply if they elected to receive those in 2027. All of those early penalties would still apply to that joint stress? Yes,

all of these. So let me just give you because I've given you high big picture stuff. Let's say that we went the route of what can we get the soonest for lifetime to his wife. That would be January for her lifetime. And using the estimate from the portal on my own back of the envelope, that would be $3,400 a month for her lifetime.

It's still somewhat of a question whether the nine COLAs would kick I'm sorry, nine COLAs would be payable. You're all aware that there's a COLA structure in this plan from when the member would have turned 55 until 63. So that's nine of them if you count them all up. I'd want to swing back to Paul. We might want to do some research to see whether under pre retirement death, whether the COLA structure would also be payable.

I will tell you that for the beneficiary now, Beverly Ward, that's the beneficiary Mr. Newland, she has been receiving COLAs. The only reason I question it for in this case is that when Mr. Newland passed, he was eligible for early retirement. He would have been he would have had access to the COLA. Here, Mr. Cleveland has not crossed the threshold of early retirement. But that doesn't mean the COLA is not payable. I'd want to sidebar with Paul and decide. So we don't need to figure that out today. I just want to throw it out there.

Well, let me I can jump in.

Let me jump Go ahead, on Paul.

I can include that. The intent in the ordinance is for the COLA to cover people. So I I don't have any problem with it.

Perfect. Okay. So we'll just consider that. So, chief? May I may I ask you? Absolutely.

So and I appreciate you going over all that. And, like, and mister Donnelly, I think, had communicated with the chair. And so I had a little bit of information here and there. My question would be is, is there a possibility so I don't know if the circumstances were new. I don't think it was under the presumptive cancer, but I think it fell under a different statute.

But under the same idea or premise is when the statute here references what he would receive at early retirement age, my question would be, is there allowance under the law or contemplation for so obviously there would be the prepayment penalty or pre draw penalty. But all of those other things in consideration to have a joint survivorship that would be extended for her lifetime, which I know obviously you have to do your calculations on what that reduction would be and have done that before. But asking the same thing. So again, it's the difference between 16 and something percent and 17 and something percent. And it might remove it takes off basically one of those years of penalties.

I think it changes at almost 2% by saying there is an impact. To me, when you read the statute that says what they would receive at that age, to me it's crediting that. It's not saying backwards to today. Do you understand what I'm trying

I to ask do. It looks like what you might be referencing is the statute under 01/1975. When I'm everything I've gone over up to this point is your local ordinance.

Yes. Yes, sir.

And it has more details. It actually talks about the actual reductions that need to be applied. So everything I've discussed does apply for your local ordinance.

But my understanding is the so but Okay. So local ordinance can be more strict than the state statute. Is that correct?

Yes. I can't I don't

Is that true?

Go ahead. Yes. Let me stop there. Think you can help a

little bit here. I'm sorry if I'm interrupting. I apologize.

No, you're not. This is a good point for you to step in.

Okay. Thank you. Are you able to see me on the screen reasonably well?

Yes, sir. Yes.

Let me try to share. I I don't know if this will work or not. I'm gonna try to share the screen for the statute that the chief is talking about. I it may not work.

Was gonna say I have it here. Do

you see, the statute on the screen?

Yes. It's a little small.

I'm not

gonna ask everybody to read it. I'm just gonna I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna read it and talk we're we're gonna talk about it. But, basically, chief is I first of all, I want you to know that my legal opinion generally and approach is that the Board of Trustees has a fiduciary duty to serve the interest of the members and the beneficiaries. Okay? So we're going to do everything that we possibly can under the law to maximize the options for the family here, I want to explain the statute.

I chief, as I understand your point or your question, is that the way this statute is worded, does it mean that the beneficiary, the survivor can choose to receive the retirement at the firefighter what the firefighter would have received for normal retirement versus early retirement? Is that kind of one of the essence of one of your questions?

No, sir. I believe when I read it, so there's no direct reference in the statute that says at early or normal. So when I look at that, I don't think that's an elective choice for the recipient. I think that when the board would contemplate that and look at it, it would be at the it would be the earliest time to do it where it would be normal. So it says it says at normal or at early or normal. Well, at early would come first for Victor because he's not he wouldn't reach normal retirement age yet. So at early, with his

to be

50 years old, if you look under our plan, which is what the ordinance references, under the plan, he would have to be 50 years old to draw his retirement for early retirement. And I understand there's penalties for that and everything else. But at 50 years old, his years of service would be more than what they are now. I'm saying is when I read that, it says that the spouse is entitled to what would be received at early or normal. So at early, his years of service would be at 50 years old, which is more than the credited years of service now.

Would be 17 and change versus 16 and change. Again, from a financial standpoint, it's not a lot of money. The legal interpretation, obviously, I defer to you. What I'm asking is if, to me, I think there's there's a little bit of interpretation there to say if it was if it was what they would receive at his early retirement, that would be at 50 years old would be the first that he would be eligible to draw that so that it would be his years of service. So I'm just asking that that calculation be considered for that.

The joint survivorship and everything has been you know, we've talked about and I appreciate and certainly I know that, everybody's, you know, trying to do the best for the family. I just when I looked at it, I thought there was potential consideration for to look at his years of service at that age of 50 under the Florida statute section that I referenced. Considering when you look at the intent of all of those other things is to try and alleviate and be inclusive for a spouse in survivorship to not have some of those penalties. The other ones for early retirement, the percentages per year and stuff, those are clear. I just think when it says at early, that would be his 50 years old, which would be his years of service.

Okay. Thank you for that. So let me explain that a little bit. I've highlighted on the screen the language, I think, from the statute the chief may have been referring to. Let me explain. Pardon me. I have a a lingering cold. I apologize if I cough here and there. So as Doug said, he has done the analysis on every option that's available under our ordinance. Our ordinance is completely compliant with, and actually in certain circumstances goes above and beyond these Florida statutes.

So compliance with these Florida statutes, the fact that our ordinance is written to comply with the language you see in front of you in addition to the other language in Chapter 175, it's for that reason, among others, that we received the premium tax dollars potentially from the state, okay, and that were regulated by the State Bureau of Police and Fire Pensions. So what Doug has done is he has outlined all of the options that are available. And I don't though it's sometimes a little difficult for me to hear, I think he was going to, at some point, get to discussing the brainstorm we had about whether there's any angle here under the disability portions of of the of the plan of the pension ordinance. But this statute deals with two things. It was enacted to make sure that, if there's a death prior to retirement, that at a minimum, assuming like no elections and decisions have been made, that kind of thing, that the firefighters' estate or beneficiaries or survivors will receive are entitled to receive a refund of 100% of the contributions made by the firefighter, okay, or made to the trust fund.

So that also is specified in our ordinance and that is an option that's available. This next section about you have a firefighter having at least ten years of credit and service dies prior to retirement, his or her beneficiaries entitled to the benefit otherwise payable to the firefighter at early or retirement age, our plan says that. It says it in different language. But it's just guaranteeing that once the firefighter were to reach those either early or normal retirement, with ten years of credit and service, at that point, the survivor is entitled to those benefits. So I hope that's somewhat helpful.

I think what you're saying, Chief, is that if Mr. Cleveland were to pass away today with sixteen point something years of credited service, you are asking that the years of service calculated in his benefit calculation be 17 whatever as if he died on the day he was 50 and retiring, not as of today if he were to die today. Is that what you're saying instead giving him the credited service until

Correct. And the reason I'm saying that is actually the last section that Mr. Donnelly just referenced under that section when it says that the spouse will be entitled to receive at early or, to me, his at early date would be 50 years old. That would be his first opportunity. So yes, you're 100%

So Paul, if he had worked until age 50 and retired is what Chief is saying is Instead of giving him having the benefits calculated as for 16 however many years, bump it up to what the years of service would be had he lived until an early retirement at age 50?

Doug,

you can help with that, too. Yes. Let me It's just saying that once you have ten years of service, you're going to once that person, if they had lived, reached early or normal retirement, the survivor can take the benefit. That's all that statute is saying. It doesn't give us more. Doug, do you have a different opinion?

Yes. The statute gives very broad language. Let me read this section to back up the calculations I came up with today. Let me read you the section from Northport Fire Pension, pre retirement death. If the member was vested, yes, but not eligible for normal or early retirement.

That's also true. So I'm now in the right section. The beneficiary shall receive a benefit payable for ten years beginning on the date that the deceased member would have been eligible for earlier normal retirement at the option of the beneficiary. The benefit shall be calculated as for normal retirement based on the deceased member's credited service and average final compensation as of the date of his or her death. So me stop there.

We're using current pay and current service. Reduce for early retirement if applicable. The beneficiary may also elect to receive an immediate benefit payable for ten years, which is actuarially reduced to reflect the commencement of benefits prior to the early retirement date. So I think Chief, maybe on this particular thread, this answers your question of whether if I understand right, you were thinking perhaps we could extend service to the point of when the member would have hit 50 and used service on that date as if the clock kept ticking.

Yes. And please understand, I kind of wasn't asking for a gimme when I read that. So obviously, I've been going through a lot of statute for all the other benefits and everything. I think when a lot of this was written, some of it, there wasn't consideration for some of the presumptive illness things. When you look at the intent of a lot of the presumptive illness things and what they're doing, that statute and how it ties back in, when I read the section that Mr. Donnelly referenced and it said that the spouse would receive the employee would have received at early or. So to me, my interpretation of that,

when I look

at everything else, everything else is really kind of giving this combined benefit as a result of this being a line of duty to death in consideration under cancer presumption. I felt like and again, I don't do this all the time. Felt like when I read that

and so

what I was asking was I don't know and I don't know if there's been any case law or like that. I didn't know whether anybody had looked and seen if that had been contemplated elsewhere. To me and again, not a lawyer. Me, when I read that, said, well, at his early retirement age, would be 50. That would be his credit. You put a lot

of thought into this. Yes, No, and you have. And I appreciate I'm going to use this as a segue, which might make it even easier for the Board because I knew we would get into the weeds at some point. You guys are all staying with me. Let's divert to this cancer presumption law that passed about ten years ago.

If the Board determines that the passing is due to cancer, I believe this will be Paul's input or Paul to help guide the Board that if this falls under the cancer presumption law under Florida Statutes 175, then all of these reductions, the only reduction that comes into play is for the survivor option to 100%. We would use the accrued benefit to date and that's for the normal form of benefit. The reduction to the 100% survivor is only 8%. If that applies, we don't have to talk about normal retirement or earlier or reduce to today. We can throw all that out the window.

It would simply be line of duty disability. And by the way, line of duty disability or death is the cancer presumption in the state under this law. And so I ran that number and I'd tell you I'll write down the first number I gave that. The one hundred percent survivor option 01/01/2026 for life would be that estimated $3,400 a month. Line of duty death cancer presumption 01/01/2026 would be along the lines of 4,200 So it would be about $800 a month greater.

And Paul, if you use the word disability, does that not give you the COLIS?

You took the words right out of my mouth. Now the ordinance is clear that disability retirements do not get COLAs. I will say though that the lifetime benefit our expected payout 4,200 without the nine COLAs versus 3,400 with the nine COLAs, the 4,200 wins by a long shot.

So now if we went this route, we'll call it a disability now. Upon his passing, that change things as far as a COLA? Because now he's deceased. His beneficiaries are receiving those benefits. You

guys are very thoughtful. I'd want Paul's input on that. Let's say you say, we're going do line of duty disability. Okay. Well, it's clear in the ordinance there's no COLAs for disability.

However, under cancer presumption, death is tied to that, not just disability. So technically, you've granted a disability retirement. But if the result is determined that, well, the death occurred and it's under the cancer presumption, maybe the COLA would be payable even though you grant the Board granted a disability line of duty. So that's where I'd want Paul's input to see legally under the cancer presumption would the COLA possibly be payable given that it's a pre retirement death, but under the guise of a disability retirement.

An interesting question.

Yes. That's a very interesting question.

Let me write that down.

And

we I imagine we'd probably have time. Because I would not be payable until the member would have hit 55. If we decide, yes, the COLA is payable, the first COLA would be payable.

The COLA?

Yes. So I I don't mean, think your hands would be tied to say, we're going to grant a line of duty disability, get the ball rolling now while the COLA review is under because he wouldn't turn 55 until six years from now or so.

But with or without the COLAs, the $4,200 is going to win out?

$4,200 no COLAs definitely beats $3,400 with nine COLAs. There's no doubt over the lifetime. Because these numbers I'm giving are based on his wife's lifetime. And one other question for me is, does

Victor have to do this before he passes or can his wife do the paperwork? Like you say, is this like a time crunch where it has to be filled out by Victor before he passes? So

go ahead.

I just thought Administratively, I would definitely want somewhere that Mr. Cleveland intended to choose the 100% survivor going into retirement. I'd want that definitely.

So if I may, so yes, I spoke to Amy and Victor both and she's asked me to come here. As a matter of fact, the board chair gave me the form for survivorship. The reason that I didn't bring it in and I'll go to the house now and get if I need to. The reason I bring it in was because for me it was for as if he was retiring and electing that now. And I didn't think that's what we're doing. Certainly, it wasn't the right form potentially for what the option was. So if that's what needs to be done, I can also tell you that she does have power of attorney. All of that stuff was done yesterday. Went to

Carroll. Paul, is that satisfactory to you for the record that Mr. Cleveland is on the record wishing to choose the 100% survivor option in advance?

Absolutely. So we'll Absolutely.

And that would be applicable for the joint survivor or the line of duty disability, like you'd be Okay with

Either one. Okay.

Either one. That line of duty disability. And if we need to move this into the point of agenda to make it Okay for us to continue talking about it, can. But I think we're already on it. So with that line of duty disability, if we went that route, upon his passing, he would still be entitled to all of the other applicable Florida State benefits for a line of duty death, right? This might be a Paul question, but like the $75,000 for line of duty, all of those things, since we've put it on disability prior And federal benefits. Will you still be able to receive all of those? Yes.

I can't answer that as the actuary. Paul might I mean, if I

was And

then I

said that was very garbled. I would need it repeated. Thank you.

So the question was, in the case of the board deciding that we go down a line of duty a line of duty death in the future, because he was put on a line of duty disability prior to his passing, would he still be eligible for all of the same benefits through the state statutes for a line of duty death down the road? A week or two from now, whatever that is, the $75,000 all of the other benefits that he would be entitled to, our decision here would not change those.

I believe yes, I believe he's entitled to those benefits.

Okay. I think there's actually specific reference in there that they're not

in conflict.

Yeah. Looks like from what Chief Op, Chapter 112.191. I can't answer that as your local actuary, but I'm aware that these things do exist. I can advise that the share plan through fiscal twenty twenty five would be payable as well. And I believe because we're also into the next year in fiscal twenty twenty six, there may be one final allocation in 2027 I'm sorry, in '26.

I'll figure that out when it goes into next year. But I ballparked what the share balance is of ninethirtytwenty five would be, and it's around $60,000 We haven't finalized yet. We're in the process of that now for everybody. So that would be an additional amount that would be payable to this beneficiary as a lump sum.

I

think we've all heard a bunch of options. That so I mean, when I'm looking at this, the line of duty disability seems like it would be the most beneficial long term he'd get paid. The family would get paid immediately, right? The disability would get paid. When I say immediately, I believe the next month or whatnot we would skip all of the early penalties. And I think that they would still get all of the other benefits that they would receive otherwise, right?

Yeah, I would say so, yes.

If we decided to go that route, what would be the steps that would have to be taken and how fast would they have to be taken in order to if he was to pass tomorrow or the next day, are we going to run into a problem where we can't affect this, if that's decision?

Paul? Did Paul hear you? Don't know if he heard you.

Paul, can you hear me? You're I think you're on mute.

Paul, we can't hear you.

You might be on mute.

Take call.

Can you hear me now?

Yes. There we go.

Yeah. Okay. I know. I'm

so sorry.

I'm having a technical issue here. I I think that was a little garbled. I if someone could just repeat the question closer to the mic, I'd appreciate So

if the optimal route, the most beneficial route for the family would be this line of duty disability, if that was what we believed, what is the fastest that could be rectified? Like how fast that occur? What kind of phase would we have to do? What would that look like for the Board and for the family?

Great question. So let me make sure I fast can we get that disability application approved, correct? Okay. As fast as we could get a special meeting and a note from the doctor that satisfies the specific language in the plan. I'll try to pull that up and share the screen on that as well.

I'll do that in a minute, though. Excuse me. So, you know, there's a process and an application required. What we would wanna do is get that application just generally filled out, and that will include a requirement of a certification from his doctor that says the language the qualifying language that he meets to meet the disability requirement, which he will, and the doctor would sign that. So the ordinance and the procedure that we have normally would allow the board to get an independent medical examination and all that, but we can waive that requirement.

We can have a special meeting and grant the application. Okay. So the answer is as soon as that application can be completed, and and I can make sure we get that emailed now. And the language in the ordinance, which I'll pull up in a moment, to show you, that would certify his compliance with the disability requirement. And then a special meeting, which we only need for a special meeting. We only need three board members physically present to create a quorum, and any additional board members could appear in both by, electronic means.

Is there a length of time we have to wait to schedule a special board meeting or special meeting? Do we have a a a limitation on notice for that special meeting? Like, do we have to provide a notice for x amount of days?

No. You just provide reasonable notice. We just get notice out and boom, boom, get it done. Okay.

And then the last question I would have with that is what would that change in or what would change if he was to pass before we got that special meeting in place? So we have it scheduled. We have all this stuff going on. He was to pass. Would we be able to still have that meeting and look at whether the board should have or would have been able to assign him that disability prior to?

In other words, if he's completed everything he needs to do with his disability application, and then he passes after that.

Correct? Yes. Prior to our meeting, but he's turning the application, and we have a letter from his doctor. But prior to the special meeting, being able to occur, he was to pass.

I would vote to allow that. Okay. Absolutely.

Can I ask specifically what that entitles? Because I'll go get it done now, but I don't know what all involves. I mean, we

I believe Paul was going to send the you're going to get that special or that application for that line of duty disability. Paul?

Yeah. I can get that forwarded now to the chairman. I'm gonna go to mute and and get that from my office and get that forwarded. Okay. Is that okay to go to Terry, is that okay if I get it to you?

Yes. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I'm okay with it.

Yeah. I'll ask if you'll forward it to me right away. Mr. Donnelly, is there anything on there that is, besides having the doctor write that, is there anything else that involves any significance of time? Because basically I'll get that, I'll bring it today out to them, we'll get it filled out and we'll get in touch with the doctor.

Should I also get this what I'll do is I'll send it to Chrissy and Terry. Is that okay, Chrissy?

Oh, yeah. That's totally fine with me. I'm just seeing if we have one on file from like, if if

We we should because this is part of the policies and procedures the board has previously adopted. But I'll take a break and and and get that together and get that

Hey. Real quick off the top of your head.

I believe it's just a one page application.

Chris is answering it now. I just wanted to verify, aside from the doctor's note and the doctor's signature and the application itself, is there anything on the application that takes a lot of time to get done? Any other things that need to be done, a waiting period or anything?

Let me get the application, then let me not guess. So give me a minute, please, and let me just pull that up. I'll be back. I'll let you know when I have it, I'm ready to talk about

it. And Doug, I'd just like to clarify his wife, the best option here is you're saying money wise is the line of duty. Yes. That's the best out of all the

numbers you The reduction is going from the normal form to 100%. That's about an 8% reduction. That would occur under any scenario that we discussed today.

Right. So that's the best.

The 20 some percent reduction for early retirement and all that is not there.

And then you also stated that as far as the cost of living adjustments, no one's sure, there would be time because they would kick in if they ever were to kick in on the date that Mr. Cleveland would have become Yes.

I did look at the coal provisions. If the coal is payable, there's no wiggle room there. It would occur when he would have hit 55. So we got plenty of time to figure that out.

Yeah. And that has something to do with the cancer presumption bill that would have to be illegal.

What I'm it's getting into the weeds just a little bit more. It's happened with the actuary. First, unless the board says no, I'm going to take the portal estimate that's there now and convert that to a formal deliverable by early next week on paper for line of duty disability with all the options available. I'm going to put in there that we are assuming for that purpose that the COLA is payable. I'm going worst case.

When we convert benefits, we have to consider whether a COLA is payable or not. The worst case is to assume it is because we have to do a slight reduction a little additional because then the COLAs would cover that in the future. It turns out that we decide collectively, no, the COLA really can't be. We can go back and revise that benefit slightly up and do catch payments. So I'm going to give the best reasonable but slightly worst case scenario for the estimate.

And if I may, and as the chief I might be shocked for this, but as a city employee but as a fire chief, it won't be okay. But just so you guys know. So anything that is related to the cancer presumptive law that's an increased benefit if there's an additional cost to the pension that is burdened by the city by statute?

It will be. All the vendors bill pension board. It comes out of the trust fund. The city reimburses the next year. So yes, the city is covering it. So thanks. Appreciate that.

Thank you. Thank you, guys, very much. I it.

I don't know if you needed an action or anything to make that to put that on paper.

I don't think so. I'll just I was going do it anyway.

Perfect. Yeah.

So You guys need the information.

Right. And Paul's going to get back to us?

Yeah. With the application. Right. Which we

have to have a special meeting.

Yep.

Which we could set up a new business later on in today. Yep. Right. Okay. So

you're going to

be in touch with

As soon as you get that Yeah. As soon as I can I'll

print it off

from my office, and I'll be Okay. I'll be going. Not that I don't want

to hear the rest of this. No. No.

I will get that filled out and signed.

All right.

Just since we're on it, does anybody have anything else that they would like to discuss with us until or do we want to move on? And when Paul comes back on, we'll be able to address anything that he has to bring up. Because I think we can start to do a lot of this without Paul for now.

I'd just like to say thank you very much to you all for we jumped ahead

a little

Thank you, John. Appreciate it. Thank you. Everything you've done.

Thanks for being a spokesman for the family.

I'm sure

Mrs. Cleveland appreciates that. Thank you.

Right. Thank you, chief. I'll get back with you as soon as I get that application. I'll come see you after the meeting if you're available. So we'll kind of touch base on this at the end of new business. So moving on to approval of minutes for 09/19/2025. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

Yeah. Scott Tuff make a motion to approve the 09/19/2025 minutes as presented. Howard Burr, second.

We have a motion and second. All in favor,

aye. Aye.

Consent agenda, we have some invoices for

ratification. Yep, just a few invoices for ratification. And on the tablets, that starts on page six of 82. Not a whole lot of invoices, everything just usual and customary, a bill for attorney fees, reimbursement to the city of Northport for admin fees, investment consulting fees, legal fees, plan administration fees, custodial fees, and more foster and foster fees, both plan admin and actuarial. No new invoices for payment approval.

And then just one member activity on the fund activity report that was a vested member who took his accumulated share plan balance as a rollover back in October. So if you have any questions about any of the payments or the share plan distribution, let me know. And if not, is a motion to approve would be in order.

I'll go ahead and make the motion to approve the payments and the distribution as listed.

The I'll activity report. We have some the new business. Is that something that's report?

Yeah. So June 19 is Juneteenth. And I guess the city is closed that day. So Tiffany reached out. And I'm proposing June 26 instead of June 19. It's a couple of days before FPPTA, the annual conference, which I know you guys like to go to so that it's not overlapping there. It's close. But, if you guys wanna take a minute and check your schedules and see if you're available for June 26. The city's free, I'm free. James, if you could check your schedule too. I may have already asked you.

Since I wasn't here last week, could you tell me what the dates we have currently?

Sure. Yeah. So we have March 20.

That's actually spring break for school aged kids.

I don't know if

that's a conflict. It might be for me.

What's that? June? No, March. March? Yeah, that'd be February 29.

Oh, you do? Okay. Is that the

it's in there. It's page 18.

Okay. Yeah. It's in the tablet. So they're good. Thank you, though.

Thank you. So

we do need at least I mean, we just need three of you physically present. So I mean, if there is a conflict, we'll see. But of course, if two or more of you can't attend, we'll have to we won't have a quorum and we'll reschedule. Nice to meet you, chief.

So do you guys want

to try to move the March 1 then? Yeah.

Terry's saying he has a conflict too. Yeah. All

right. So March 20 is no good.

I don't know if all the schools are out here. It's all at the same time. Don't It's surprising.

Charlotte and Sarasota is, but you would have to like

You could Okay. You could Okay. Was wondering, like, the week before. I don't have it. I don't know you if guys have anything for I do not.

No. I'm flexible. I can do whatever.

Yeah, me too. That's right.

But yeah.

Like just a week earlier, March 13?

Yeah. I could do that. Friday the thirteenth thirteenth sounds great.

Yeah, James, March 13. Yeah, Friday. Boy.

We shift now.

Is it? I don't know.

So can check the city calendar and see if Room 244 is available March 13? Preferably same time, yeah.

We're looking good for March 13 then? Mhmm.

Okay. Typically, he's checking the city calendar. So no meeting can get you. So instead of the March 20? Yes. Okay. So no pending or meeting, but we're looking to change March 20 to March To March 13, if it's available. Yes. It is. There's nobody in there that day. Perfect. Okay. So March instead of March 20, March 13 at 9AM in Room 244. James, are you good?

Yeah. I think that works for me.

Okay. Room 244. Alright. How about the June meeting? How's June 26 for you guys?

Trying for me. I don't

think we work Fridays, but I guess I'll come up with yes.

That's the same time. Oh, you're not working

right now?

Yeah. That's what

you say.

That's true. Okay.

I'm back. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I know you're doing other stuff.

Paul, we actually just we're looking at the meeting dates for next year because the June meeting date that was originally scheduled is Juneteenth, and the city will be closed. So we're gonna change the June meeting to June 26 instead of June 19. And next meeting, instead of March 20, will be March 13, 9AM same time for for all of them. So I guess I said that backwards. So next meeting, March 13. Then we have June 26, then September 18, and December 18.

Thank you, Chrissy. Let me get those dates again. So it's June 26, March excuse me, March 13. And the September date again?

September 18 and December 18. I'll send an email out to remind everybody since we've made a couple changes.

And you said December 18? I'm sorry.

Yes, sir. That's correct.

Thank you for your help.

Okay. All right. So we have a consensus to move forward with the dates as revised? The only update on trustee terms that I have is that we didn't get any responses to the notice circulated for your expiring seat, Dave. So welcome back to the board. And the next term to expire I shouldn't use the word expire. I know people don't like that. The next term, Scott, is yours. It's in March. And you being the fifth trustee, that will well, actually, Scott, your term is going to expire before the next meeting.

No, since we just revised it. Never mind. Your term expires March 16. So at the next meeting, the board will vote to reselect you. I guess that'll be their chance to give you the boot. So enjoy your last meeting today. No, just kidding. Just kidding. That's all I have on trustee terms.

We'll get the special meeting

in before you leave. Good

morning. Good to see you all. So I beat you all up last quarter with a lot of action items. I'm pleased to say that we dissolved TTAA. We moved some to domestic equity, international equity, and fixed income. All of that went through very smoothly. We also did a rebalance. All of that has went through since last quarter. Today, we have a very nice report. You beat your return target.

Let's beat the third year in a row that you beat your return target. Not only beat it, but blew through it with high single digit or strong double digit returns. So very impressive returns across the board. One thing I will focus on is kind of what we're going to focus on next year and what adjustments we're going to look at for the year to come. There are a couple managers that have been stragglers over the year.

It's been a very challenging environment. Remember, we're marathon individual So before we jump into the individual numbers on Page three, I think 2025 will always be remembered as the year of tariffs and tariff related volatility, but we've had another dominant and I think more important theme play out in AI and the AI build out, and that's really has been what supported returns despite the tariff volatility. But remember, we got on the tariff on and off roller coaster earlier this year. Little did we know this was the roller coaster ride we couldn't get off of. And I don't know if any of you have seen Groundhog Day, the movie?

No. Okay, so it's been tariff Groundhog Day every day. We turn on the news and it's tariffs again, right? So we wake up in early April due to the Liberation Day announcement. The S and P 500 was down almost 20%, which is serious correction territory.

And I'm glad we made quick progress on those tariffs or we might have been looking at different results today, but we did make quick progress. And in the third quarter, we saw concrete trade deals go through with the EU and Japan and obviously, markets responded very positively to that. There were also worries about corporate earnings and how companies would defend their revenues in the face of tariffs. And not only were companies able to continue making impressive revenue gains, but we've seen impressive earnings growth across the board this year. When you take those two things hand in hand, progress on tariff negotiations and earnings growth, and we saw The U.

S. Stock market hit 13 all time new highs, just this year. So very impressive growth across the board. The other thing, and this is the cherry on top, is we saw the Fed cut interest rates for the first time in nine months in mid September, which is a little weird when the stock market's hitting all time highs, we really don't expect the Fed to be cutting interest rates. Usually, that's due to some sign of weakness in the economy.

And what we've seen is some slowing jobs growth numbers. And just to put that into perspective, for the last ten years on average, we added 150,000 new jobs to the economy per month. In August, we only added 22,000 new jobs to the economy and that has since been revised to a slightly negative number. So we think the Federal Reserve is trying to get ahead of that, but getting back to the AI theme and just to wrap up here, while companies are definitely tightening their belts and slowing down on hiring, what they're not doing is slowing down spending and spending on the AI build out. And that's why we're calling it the rising tide that's raised all ships this year.

If you look at the bottom right corner, the one year performance since we are closing out your fiscal year today, you can see, the S and P 500 for the one year time period, US stocks up almost 18%, the MSCI ACQUIX US right below that, international stocks up 16%, and the Bloomberg US Ag US bonds, up almost 3%. So positive into the right, exactly what we hope to see on any given year. But just to drive home the point of how much has hinged on these big technology companies and that AI build out, I think we have to ask ourselves, had we had that tariff volatility but not the optimistic backdrop of AI, would we be looking at different results today? So, so not not to be ominous or anything, but when you have, you know, three years of impressive returns, I think we're gonna continue to see a bumpy ride into next year. So any questions there to wrap up the market environment?

Okay. Jumping into plan results to Page 13. So on the top left corner, you can see you started the quarter at $72,000,000 On the top right corner, ended the quarter just north of $75,000,000 So up $3,300,000 for the quarter. This came after $100,000 in net contributions and $3,200,000 in investment earnings. So very impressive quarter, from an investment earnings front.

I pulled your market value, just last night. You're now sitting up another $1,300,000 at $76,600,000 So making our way to a new high water market of $80,000,000 Turn to page, page 14. So as you can see, the green triangles, where your allocations were as of quarter end, and all of the major asset classes you're invested in are very close to your new vertical targets. And just to review kind of last quarter what we did, we had a 5% allocation, the global tactical asset allocation, BlackRock. What we did is we dissolved that allocation.

We increased your domestic equity allocation from 37% to 38%. International equity increased from 8% to 9%. So 2% total went to equity, and then we increased your fixed income allocation from 40% to 43%. And you can see you're very well positioned with those new targets. So no need to rebalance or any actions today from an asset allocation standpoint.

Okay, moving on to plan results, page 20. So, on the top left corner here for the quarter, again, very impressive quarter, up 4.4%, right in line with your benchmark. Fiscal year to date, outperforming your benchmark just north of 10%. Great outperformance next to your 6.75% return target. And again, the third year in a row that you've had strong performance and outperformance of that return target.

You can see that you are lagging your peers below the top 50%. But remember, we're comparing you to an open plan still. So with a year like we've had with where equity is doing its thing, you would expect to fall short. You're like a fifty-fifty portfolio. You're a closed plan, so you're more defensive.

So we expect you to fall short in that environment next to those peers. But if you look in the fiscal year to date column at the 30% to 50% equity median, which would be other closed plans, you can see you outperformed that 9.23% median, so you were in the top 50% of those Going out to the longer trailing time periods, the three year, five years since inception numbers, consistently competitive with your benchmark. And if you look at the 30% to 50% equity median, consistently in the top 50% of those closed plan peers. Remember, we we did risk y'all two years ago. We're gonna give it one more year.

Once you have three years as a derisk plan, more of a fifty fifty allocation, that will promote that to your primary peer group. But we want to give it three years, but remember, already we've had two years of just awesome equity performance, so when we're comparing you to those open plans, of course, you're going to fall short. Okay. Focusing on the fiscal year to date column, since we are closing out your fiscal year, you can see total equity was primary driver of overall performance, up 16% versus the benchmark, up 17.5%. We did see a rotation in the international markets towards emerging markets, You all have a developed market focus, in your portfolio, so you're more conservative.

You have exposure to more established economies and financial markets, so you would fall a little short in that sort of environment, but still very competitive returns. Going to fixed income, this has been additive to overall performance, up 3.6% versus the benchmark at 3%. And then real estate, this is the fifth, quarter in a row positive performance from real estate, so we're optimistic that they're starting to turn it around in that space, but also additive to overall performance up about 4.5% versus the benchmark at 3.8%. And we'll just turn to page 21. Are there any questions so far?

Okay. So just wanna dive in, to MFS growth. So again, remember, we're looking at a very concentrated market that is really led by a handful of big technology companies. And I just want to highlight the Russell one thousand growth index under MFS growth and go out to the five year time period and since inception time period. And you can see that the benchmark, just by passively holding the market for Russell one thousand growth, the benchmark ranks in the top 6% and the top 9% of peers.

So the benchmark's beating most active managers, right? And what we're seeing is the Russell one thousand growth, 60% of that benchmark is made up of seven stocks. These are your big names, your Microsoft, your Nvidias, your Metas, so it's hyper concentrated. And if you look at the quarterly performance for the Russell one thousand growth, up 10.5%, 80% of that return can be attributed to five names. So this is a very difficult environment for active management.

Now what we're hearing from growth managers is that they don't want to be concentrated as the index, so they're more diversified. MFS growth is as concentrated as the benchmark, so they're on the other side of that fence, but they chose the wrong names the past couple years. Now, going out, they've been a strong team, and I'm not ready to strip them from the plan. I just wanna reevaluate what we're doing in Russell one thousand Growth, especially since it's so difficult for active management to outperform there. I'd like to bring some options to evaluate this section of the portfolio going forward.

I think the growth part of our domestic equity portfolio in the long term is very important, so we're gonna keep looking at that. We might not make any changes next quarter, but I want to bring some education, some options, really run MFS growth through our other options and see how they add up. Okay. American Europe Pacific growth in the international equity market. This is also a manager that's had some challenges over the last few years, especially this year.

International equity has been very volatile due to tariffs. They've had two strong quarters in a row. And if you look at their since inception number in the long term, this team does hold up. They have a 8.6% return versus the benchmark at 8.2% ranked top 30 of their peers. So they have added value consistently over time.

This has just been a rough kind of speed bump few years, so we do want to give them time to deploy their strategy. But I don't have any immediate concerns in that section of the portfolio. But once we take care of MFS growth, we'll look at our international section of the portfolio and that'll kind of be our game plan for next year. But overall, the portfolio, as you can see, outperforming your benchmark fiscal year to date is firing off cylinders. We're just always going to make adjustments as we go.

Unless there are any questions, that wraps it up for me.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you all.

Thank you very much. I know we've had to speak for quite a bit, but did you have anything for this section?

Yeah. I have forwarded let me get this so I see it a little better if I can.

Yeah. I received that application.

Can you hear me okay?

Yes.

I'm sorry. I'm trying to make this thing work. Here we go. I forwarded to Chrissy and to Terry the procedures we've we've previously used, but we're gonna waive all those. And that long questionnaire, I don't think that's necessary. So that long application questionnaire is not necessary. I'm right now typing up a form that that he could fill out. Can you help me with understanding just a couple of things? And then maybe if there's somebody I could work with after the meeting, like, right after the meeting, we could get this taken care of together.

Okay. Yeah. Don't have problem hanging out, and I'll get ahold of chief Titus who's kind of helping the family. So, you know, he might be able

to assist

you if we need

Is is is Victor in a situation where he can actually sign something? Or what what I have or not.

Been out there. I'm not sure exactly what his situation is this minute. I don't know anybody else can speak to that. But but, yeah, that would be something we'd have to be able to look at.

And did I I may have misheard, but did I hear correctly that the Board was considering doing the special meeting, like, right away, like today or tomorrow?

Well, that I had asked you what the if we needed to have a delay or any kind of certain timeline. You just said a reasonable notice. I So don't know what the definition of reasonable notice would be for that.

Well, I mean, he's dying. So I think we do it as quickly as possible.

So I mean, I don't know what that would. If they can get the application done in time,

I The application of the doctor's report.

Yeah. I don't know how long the doctor's gonna take. That might be something the city already has some of that documentation.

I'm actually all I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna prepare a one pager that he can he can he can sign, and then the doctor will need to just certify.

Okay. K. Well, then, yeah, what I'll do is I'll reach out to them and see. As far as the special meeting, how quick we can get that done, I imagine they're not gonna be able to get that signed by the doctor over the next half an hour to an hour. So, you know, I don't but I'll I'll reach out and see what that looks like. But I was

just wondering if have a

special meeting.

I'll I'll I'll recap what we're gonna be doing because I'm gonna be out of pocket all next week with no cell phone or Internet. I'll have Jim Brantley be aware of all this to help. But, what I'm gonna do is let me just make a note. Sorry. Here's what we're gonna what you're gonna do.

Okay. Yeah.

Now are we are we fairly sure that he wants this option?

I I would imagine that would be the option he would want if that's the best, you know, what's best for his family going forward. Again, I would we would talk to him, I but imagine that would be the option he would wanna take.

Okay. Because Doug does look like the best numbers. Right? Correct.

Doug? Yes. He's he's reading. Yes.

They are. I see. Okay. So good. Okay. That's helpful.

So then what what we'll just need to do is we'll need to have him submit what will it'll basically be, you know, I I'm requesting disability benefits, and he's I'm gonna quote the language of the ordinance. And then you're gonna have notice of special meeting to consider his request for disability benefits. And we'll have his request, and we'll have the doctor's certification. And in that meeting, you'll call it to order. You'll have a quorum of three people present, three board members present, excuse me.

And then, you will waive the requirements of our procedure and accept the application and accept the request to approve it. It's that simple.

Okay. So just on just to kinda double back, you're going I I received that application. It is a it is a fairly lengthy application. You're going to create a some sort of modified document that would be we would call that applicable. So they they do not need to fill out the longer document.

Right. There's no need. That's for that's for if there's a contested issue and stuff like that. So what I sent you, you may not have. It's good to have for the future. Those are what we've used in the past back in 2012. Okay.

Alright. So, yeah, when you send that, just send me a text so I can go and check my email that way.

I will. So, Terry, what I'll do then is after the meeting, will I you and I all just sort of hang on together. Is that right?

Yep.

Okay. Thank you.

And, Paul, if we can get this meeting to happen, like, as early as tomorrow or Monday, like, it still needs to be in the official capacity with the city official taking minutes, all that sort of thing? So it's recorded? Okay.

So it happens to be on a weekday or what time? Well, tomorrow's Friday.

I don't know what kind of notice we need to give someone from the city. That's usually scheduled so far out. I'm not

sure. Yeah.

But this is a special emergency meeting.

We'll talk to chief, and he could probably help with that.

Reach out to Heather, probably.

Yeah. Alright. Yeah. We'll we'll work that on our side, but, yeah, we'll we'll get that paperwork. I'll talk to you after the meeting if it's something that we need to kinda hammer out some details.

Alright.

Did you have anything else? You know

I did not. Thank you very

much. Okay.

Thank you so much.

Yes, sir. Alright. Moving on to staff reports. Chrissy?

House Bill three reporting, very exciting stuff. I just wanted to give you guys an update that there is this report that the states, a couple of years ago, they came out and said that you can only invest in things for pecuniary factors and no ESG reasons reasons or social governments and environmental or something strange. So basically, they want to see your investment policy statement. And they want us to submit a comprehensive report by December 31 confirming that your plan is in compliance with those state statutes. And we have already done that before the deadline, so you guys are in compliance with this and every other year of things.

So we'll bring this up again in 2027. But no action there. It's already been taken care of. I know guys you like to go to FPPTA. So a motion would be in order to renew your membership for 2026. The fee is $750 for the full board to have a membership if you want to renew it.

Board room, you have a

I'd like to make a motion David Hoth make a motion to continue our membership with the FPPTA 2026 membership for all the board.

Scott Dove second. Any other

motion and second? All in favor? Aye.

We've got a quorum.

Say we got four. So

I didn't even see you step out. We had just reviewed the FPPTA board member membership renewal. And it was just a renewal membership as we go. Jess voted in seat route. So all in favor say aye. Oh, we do? Yeah, yeah.

I didn't see you walk out either, so I'm really glad.

All right. Motion carries unanimously.

Are any of you guys going to the upcoming winter school or still need to be registered? Anything like that?

I don't believe I'll be able to make it this year,

after February.

Up to TBD. I'll get in touch with you. TBD? Yeah.

I'll let you know.

I don't have anything else, but, you know, I'll make myself available as best I can for the special meeting. Next week, I'm available Monday, Tuesday all day.

That's okay.

Friday all day. I'm unavailable Wednesday and Thursday of next week completely. I'm free Monday the fifteenth, Tuesday the sixteenth, Friday the nineteenth. If we need to go into the next week oh, that's Christmas week. Hopefully, we get this done before that. Okay.

Just so in case we're going work on the schedule afterwards, Paul, who has to be at that meeting? I mean, the trustees. I would assume you. Someone from the city clerks. And then city clerk. I think you're muted again.

I'm sorry. For the special meeting?

Yes. Right. Right.

Or at least somebody to take minutes. Okay. I mean, you need the here's what you need. You need the three board members for a quorum, three or more physically present. Three can be present. One or two of the additional can appear by electronic means. But quorum has to be three board members. You need somebody to take notes, make a record. And if that's the city, that's fine. That's who you normally use.

Ideally, you want the general council president president, And you really don't need to have I mean, ideally, the administrator, but, you you know, that can be virtual as well. You don't really even have to have either of us there. I'm gonna write out a script so that you can get this done and not we don't have you know, we need to get we wanna make this work, and so I wanna help make it work. So there's no legal requirement that anybody be present other than a quorum of the board.

Okay. Alright.

Okay? So I'm gonna write you a script that you can read into the record and become you know, have it all nice and neat.

Okay. Perfect.

Does that does that answer your question? I'm sorry.

Yes, sir. Obviously, you know, if we could schedule it when you're available, that would be ideal. But it's nice to know that we can do it if, for some reason, you were unable to make, you know, even for try one of those days.

Would it be beneficial to have a family member or Chief Titus as the liaison for the family?

The only legal requirement would be that there would be a quorum a properly noticed meeting and a quorum voting for you present.

So you wouldn't even have canceled? Yeah.

Okay. Perfect. Okay. All right. Thank you for that. So barring any special meeting, our next meeting is scheduled for is that March?

'13? '13. March 13,

right. March. I'm assuming this room, we'll see when the energetic comes out.

And Paul, if Terry spearheaded this, can he just get you know, if he says we can do a meeting tomorrow, you could you could spearhead that? Or does it have to come from our plan administrator from Chrissy?

It doesn't have to come from any particular individual. As long as you can

As far as communication, if we say, hey. We're trying to get a meeting together. Is it okay if I contact board members in so far as just trying to get a meeting together? No no discussing the actions, just meeting?

Yes.

Okay.

I prefer that is it is there any way you could do it by email? So it's

just Yeah. Could definitely send it by email. Yeah. And I would I would cc you in that email. So

I think the most likely thing, honestly, is going to be Monday at the earliest because for us to give the city notice. Even to be in like a small conference room, we could do that. This is remote, and there's Teams computers available so we can make it a document.

Time, we were getting a hold

of the doctor, making the

doctor sizes. So that's probably going be the only thing that takes any kind of time. Okay. I think that was it for our agenda. Did anybody have anything else? It's kind of a different meeting of sorts.

All right.

Thank you for being here, Doug, with that information.

Appreciate it.

Absolutely. I appreciate it.

Pleasure. Thank you

very much. And then if we do have a special meeting, I know you said you're going work on some numbers. Would those numbers be available? Or let's say Monday or Tuesday, would those numbers be available?

I just put a request in while we're here for Monday delivery at the latest. All

right. Well, thank you guys very much. I know it's been little of a different meeting. I appreciate you guys all working

on this. Thank you for

my colors. You know? So but, yeah, you guys all have a good holiday. If I don't see somebody before, meeting's adjourned. Okay?