City Council - Regular Meeting

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implementation aspects. And hopefully if you have any questions as we're moving along, you'll ask them. Um, Sinclair from Strong Towns Claremont. I'm a resident. I love Claremont. That's pretty much Jordan Gins. I own Gcho in downtown Claremont. I'm also a strong member. I'm Edward. I'm the chief technical advisor.

Nick Gonzalez, city of Claremont. John Cruz, planning manager, city of Claremont. Nathan Norris, director of economic development, city of Claremont. Brett Jones for economic development participants associates a land owner here but also working on the conservation element of the

visitor. Claremont see how this

goes. sports warrior outach. Thank you all for being here. And uh if you can't hear us, please let us know. Um and join us at the table whenever you might want to. Um this morning we had a good session on um land use and we spent a good amount of time covering growth um concerns and the conditions that are producing it today. This afternoon we had the opportunity to focus on downtown. Um we were asked to produce a form based zoning code for um the northwest quadrant. Um and Ben has put some of the slides up on the screen. We'll be doing a more formal and complete presentation at this evening's meeting. But um there is where you can the northwest quadrant um between 27 and 50 and then the surrounding city with its um irregular municipal boundary.

Uh the we always start out when working on a place of a specific size of like the Northwest quadrant to start imagining walking in it. And um so these white circles that you see uh are the five minute pedestrian shed that we often refer to. Uh and of course the downtown itself has uh is such a place. and then the neighborhood surrounding it. Um they're actually it's quite the whole quadrant is quite large and has several of those. Um so and then we start uh looking at the what the existing um regulations and um existing vision that exists that uh precedes us in the comprehensive plan that's here. And we discovered something interesting. The zoning is on the left in this in these drawings. Um and it shows um you I think have 14 categories of zoning in the city and 10 of them are uh in the downtown. There are 10 different zones. Um when you look at the future land use map, that's what the plume is uh which is coming off your prior comprehensive plan. Uh you see a slightly different picture. Uh one that respects the central business district as a focus. um a lot of the single family neighborhoods in yellow. Um but it also anticipates or back in 2009 when this was first projected

uh that those neighborhoods closest to the central business district might um change over time uh and in fact become denser. um doesn't show a lot of um on the ground you don't see that happening except you do see duplexes occurring uh which seem to be pretty new um but so there's a a connection there that um we could is one of the things we could speak about. We're not showing anything else, right? Do you want to show the graph of these? Not yet.

Um uh This is u some of the basic information we're coming in with. Um we were also asked to look at the garage studies um that were done um pretty recently and later on we can come back to that. That's so specific that I think we should start with the big picture. And so we would invite first of all your comments about oh and by the way the slide that's up right now is I'll explain this a little bit more this evening something we do to understand the existing character of a place the synoptic survey which takes a very detailed look at um the building types that are here regardless of what their zoning is. But what is the usually something older than the existing zoning is making the the character of the place

and more often than not the zoning but what people like doesn't align with the zoning

and then on those properties then when the new zoning starts being applied with an infill building sometimes it's shocking. At any rate, um I think we might ask um from our visitors now from the audience what and the table um what are some of the overarching concerns with regard to the downtown? We know uh we'd love to hear from you about its assets. Um what should not change as well as um what this might what opportun for change might mean that would be beneficial to the town and its residents. So that's an open invitation to just get started.

So my question is what is the 12 million for the meet in the middle project really going to do for us in terms of economic impact and how quickly can we see that money back basically back because at this point I don't agree with that $12 million that's just ridiculous. So, um before we go to that, we might point out that Do you have a pointer then for your arrow?

Um if you just trace the waterfront on it. Um you have about a mile of waterfront and um I think it's important to address that as a continuous um public and shared space. Um there are a number of different projects that have been proposed along it um uh including u the one that was just mentioned meet in the middle and from 2015 there's also um a plan for some development where the parking lot of the salt shack is in other words to bring a few buildings closer to the waterfront and um uh that the The idea of the waterfront I think also as a continuous public route uh influenced the development of the um of the new apartment complex. So there are many things going on here. We've also heard that the beach up to the in the upper um end of that just on that map um uh could use some uh facilities that maybe the um what do we call that building around

the amphitheater might become something that would serve food and drinks to people on the beach or but have you done any studies on how long it would take to get that money back because honestly $12 million out of the city funds is ridiculous. All right, so now we're going to we raised a question about uh the meet in the middle project. So I don't know Jeff Jeff can give us

that's okay. So, um, yeah. Would you like me to have a couple slides to kind of introduce this to you or show me where the 12 million will come back? That's what I want. How are we getting that money back? Because I don't see you guys, but just what you're trying to do really bring that impact that we're seeing that we would expect for that much money.

Sure. So, um, initially the project encompassed the entire site as you see here. It's about a twoacre site right on the waterfront. Um there is an existing pier that was on access of 8 street that was damaged in hurricane Milton and has been determined that structurally not sound or it would take a considerable amount of money to repair it. So uh we were we were asked and and challenged to come up with a plan for this area. Uh, interestingly enough with it, it has a good amount of grade as it comes from the uh, east side to the west side and also this park or this location here was coined in the 20 I believe it was the 2015 master plan update uh, as meet us in the middle. So the coast to coast trail which currently goes from St. Petersburg to Melbourne I believe uh, is nearly completed and At the time of completion, the intent was that Claremont had coined the term meet us in the middle that we were the exact midpoint of the Coast to Coast Trail and with a a motto of health and wellness in terms of our choice of champions that we could celebrate that location and it would be a nodal point in downtown. Um, currently this the site is uh essentially a drainage swale. Uh it had does have a prominade along the water waterfront. Some of the trees were also damaged in the storm as well. So they're in disrepair. Um and there's a seaw wall that's there. The the goal of meet us in the middle initially was to create a a nodal section that would be on access with 8 street to celebrate the coast to coast trail in midpoint and also uh to provide some municipal docking facilities that because we are

we are on the chain of lakes to allow people who are residents and and uh community to have a direct conduit from the water and make that connection between the downtown and the water. The challenge with Claremont, I think we since we've gone through several master plans, has been how do you connect the waterfront and and the downtown due to the hills, the grade, and uh the activity zones there. So, mutis in the middle was originally intended to celebrate the midpoint, but is expanded into this docking facility, which would bring in uh residents and other people from the community as a condom to get into downtown, explore the shops, and leave. It's not a commercial docking facility. There's no fuel. There's nothing like that. is basically a document.

So, how do we explain the 12 million and how do we get that money back? Like what what economic impact have you studied? Have you done any studies that will basically say this is how many tourists will come into the area and how much money? So, that's not necessarily my scope of work to go in and do economic impact studies. But I'm saying like how do how do we get to that right now? That to me is more important about how do we get that money back instead of just spending 12 million willy-nilly. So, the the cost is reduced considerably because of the reduction in scope. Originally you were nine.

We were and then the the council in November had reduced the scope to about half of this. So u what you're seeing here is the original concept which had an amphitheater on the uh east side the uh open lawn space with some areas that go down to a water feature and an open lawn and be. So now the amphitheater has now been shifted to align with what would be the future art. Um, in discussions with downtown businesses, I believe there's a lot of excitement about having the ability for uh recreational voters to be able to come in from into downtown to support the businesses, to support the restaurants, the bars and do that. I think there's that's that's been the motivation behind it all along and taken some of the community forms we've had. We've also heard criticism, which is fair. Um,

any private funding on this or is it all just city and whatever? No, those the funding for it as we understand it would come from piece uh which are dedicated to projects like this. And why have no public or private fund involved? We do actually do have a little bit actually. Let me clarify. The Lib Foundation uh did award a $ 1.5 million grant for the tiered seating area. Still a grant. So where's the project?

That's private lift basically. So where are you guys coming? Where's your you know where's your skin? Well, sir, we're we're a hired consultant. What's their skin? Your boss, I guess, whoever whoever hired you, what's their skin? What are they bringing? So, if I could just interject, what you would like to see is is some kind of study of impact,

economic impact. Yeah. I'd like to see if, you know, like is this going to bring in tourism? Is it going to how much business will it bring into my downtown? These are things that are important to me because we want to make sure that we're doing the right thing for the community and making is bringing the business and it's a feeling because I mean downtown is suffering because we don't have that push and we don't have that those things that really bring people in. So we're going to do something. Let's do the correct thing. Let's do something that's going to actually impact the community correctly. Not just spend money and say here you go. That sucks. So we can make that suggestion but the team that's here now is not focused on that. Okay.

But we hear and maybe that's something to the as we proceed through this process. So, thank you. You're welcome. Now, you have um I wonder whether from your line of work and what you described, you would have any other kinds of comments about the city, about the downtown. I do and I actually have a proposal to submit to actually. Would you like to tell us about it?

Sure. So, my name's Ron Morales. I'm actually a board member of the warrior outreach project where we actually help house and train and get veterans off the street and get them the healthcare that they need. So what I submitted recently is something actually for the victory point area to do a memorial a onem memorial with 11 stop stations that would be dedicated to each one of the branches and some of the special forces that we have. There would be exercise stations to commemorate the 22 soldiers that basically commit suicide on a daily basis. Uh the main focal point would actually be the yellow building that you guys are just using for storage right now. We would want to convert that into an intake building where we have vets basically come in and get health care as well as being taken into the system to be able to help them uh get back into society as well as be able to house and train some guys in the community. So that way when the community needs them for emergency services or anything community related, our guys would be there to help serve as well as be part of it.

And where is the yellow building? Victory. In Victory.

So you mentioned So that's two projects. be shown on our maps. One is the center. Before you leave, I'd like to write down. Yeah. And I could actually send you and then the um the memorial of the sequential components that you deserve the mile. Yes. um other projects or proposals that we may have missed.

Um so that is the desires list. What about the concerns list? And you told us your concern. Are you talking about the waterfront? Yeah. No, the whole downtown. Oh, you want to talk about um There was a there was I guess a group that was trying to uh provide a popup um along the waterway. I think it was on Victory Point to was it right there? Yes, I'm assuming. Yes. Um for I guess boards and stuff like that. So that came in front of the city, but that was kind of what um for I guess wakeboards and just the popup

rentals and I think she was going to do bicycle. Bicycle bicles. So that came up um at the city and it was um I think it was either tabled or the art was so she's not here today to speak on it but u but that did come in from the city. Yeah I would say when it comes to vary point one of the issues I guess is that is um it is utilized like there is that building that is storage it would be great to have something to connect people to nature um from there or to serve the community um in some way. So that is my thing when it comes to victory more activities.

More activities that was one of the proposals by u proposals but from visitors as well to to utilize the trail I guess like to jump off jump. Uh something I have noticed that people really like nonmotorized uh sports like bicycles, paddle boards, uh kayaks. I haven't seen a canoe yet, but but the rowing um that is something that people really enjoy. Um so if we could incorporate that into this waterfront design, that'll be wonderful because people here want to take advantage of the water. Um I've spoken a lot. I have something else to say.

Yeah, I know. And we also have Pilates and yoga groups as well that use the especially for them as well overall. So you had something else. I had something else and then I forgot what it was. So maybe somebody else. Can I ask a question about activities? How is the um how's the empathy that they use now? By the by the usually I mean usually for events just for events for events they use it for music. I know the veterans do their veterans day. They do some presentations but a lot of it is music. I'm sorry.

How frequently, how many days out of the year? It depends on all the events, I guess. You know, ping on the pond and we have pups in the park and so I don't know how many events we have. It's like what five or six big large events. And of those events, how many days is that? One or two days probably average is two days. So 12 time 12 times out of 365 times probably. Yes. Not not a high percent. Correct.

Um, suspecting something like that, we we began thinking about it as potentially a a site for restaurants, food and beverage service for people on beach or people using the trail as a kind of um and therefore activating it. Okay. Yeah, I mean you have a lot of homes as well within that walk distance of that beach. I think you could combine that with like some kind of like learning conservation uh section for it. I think that would be really beneficial.

Yeah. Like because for example, Victory Ping has those cards about how the water is treated at that particular uh location and people in really care about the nature that we have. We would like to preserve as much of of it as we can so we could integrate that drive towards conservation towards nature and that would be fantastic. And so who produced the those things for victory for the victory point site? Is there a nonforprofit in town? Did black cherry lakes design not design but provide the landscaping for

I I think that I don't know the answer to that question. to answer your question. Part of the city project city together. This is how we filter water through this innovative water retreatment facility right here. Victory point. Victory point was designed originally as the master storm. So was part So the sign that was part of the educational component was that city produced or somebody else? That was city produced. I think it's probably pay for it, but the consultant that did it was

I think in terms of activating Victory Point, anyone can come to the city and request a permit to host an event there. Our company hosts several events a year. We've got a health and wellness event coming up in April there. So, at Victor Point or the Amphitheater? At Victory Point? At Victor Point. Um, and the same thing happens at atum pavilion. you can get a permit and ask you have a birthday party there if you wanted to have a permit. Um, you know, there are people that do Pilates like you said and things out there, but those all have to be permitted since you're on city property, but it's just part of the process. Anyone can do an event.

That's good. Um, so that's the the relation so the relationship of the city to the waterfront. We've talked about specifics along the waterfront. Let's move uphill. Um, perhaps a little bit. Where are the good what do you think are the good connections? What could be better? Sorry, can I ask a couple more questions about the waterfront? Yes. So there's a lot of parking on the waterfront which could potentially be useful something other than parking which we're sure is controversial. Some people love it but um

motivated to use this design consideration of a parking garage elsewhere to be able to allow the city to use this for to use some of the waterfront parking for more productive uses. I mean I personally I would love that because I think that view is too beautiful to have a parking there. So if we could take advantage of that um to provide amenities or provide storefronts is not a parking is not a park. Yeah. Exactly.

That's actually one of the main reasons I came was to understand what what your plans were with parking because to me also that's a complete waste of that space. to have a parking parking there. But even with all that parking that's there, it's not enough. Anytime there's anything going on downtown, it's it's it's a nightmare. And and if you try to go to anything at waterfront, unless you get there two hours before it starts, you're not hitting the parking spot. And so that's so I'm very interested to hear what what the plans are with because to me, parking. You know, when you want to have green space and you want to have all these things set up, I would think you would also want to have kind of parking all around, not just centered in one spot, but if you're going to center in one spot, you'd almost need to have a fourstory parking deck and have that mean be the main one for downtown and that's where everybody you that's easy access for everybody then. But

you know, what is the limitation on height here in levels? Since you said four levels, I'm I'm wondering what is the actual limitation here in Claremont? So that would be what level it's four gracious and five ungracious fort. Yeah. CBD zoning 55 ft. Okay. But technically the top deck of the parking garage you said possibly. You don't want your parking to be the to structure. Correct. We'll put an orange or something.

We just want the image to come back up. So, um, at some point in one of our sessions here earlier, um, in earlier visits, we heard that those areas are used for, um, events, not just the parking, but the event actually taking place. Can anybody speak to that a little bit at least? I mean, most of the events are in the big green open space. There is a lot of parking there, but that's where most of the events when there events happen. everything there.

But the parking like pickup pond for example has shuttles. So they shuttle people from the elementary schools to the middle schools. And at least for our business which is right here on Mantros you've got 60,000 people coming to pig on the pond. None of them are walking this way. A parking garage somewhere over here that they park and then walk down to the waterfront would be better for all the store owners downtown. You get 60,000 people. Oh. It's huge. Yeah, that's a big Yeah. And you saw how much parking we had. How does the shuttle work? Is the shuttle productive because you you sir were mentioning ways in which possible solutions,

right? The shuttles I presume are a very good solution. They're decent. They're not that bad. It's just because of the traffic and the way the flow and all that stuff, they can get congested real fast. So, it's still an issue and there's not good signage and people, you know, people that that don't live here and come to things often, if they come in, they have no idea where to go and what to do and just so we understand, depending on the pond, is it is it over here the whole thing? Sparkling water lake. It's the whole thing. It's the whole thing basically all the way down all the way down. Is it a bunch of booths?

It's a bunch of boots and you have a carnival section. The carnival section basically says that left side of the lake right there. Correct.

ADA. The ADA. So, um, we know that there's a bicycle plan being and he's talked about improvements that would that would help including trees. Yes, I'm known as the tree person on the commission. So, as long we're losing I mean it's if you walk it right now it's hard to find a shaded tree. I mean, we had to find a place to sit over here at the shade because out here is important

more and more.

If I can expand on that because I know Shane's in town, but know that this was going to be coming up today. Their suggestion has been to maximize the entire waterfront as a mile rather than one place but they're trying to point people in all the way to the boat house is one mile so it's a mile and a half if you go to miles if you go down the boat ramp and so if you were to activate that mile something like that something that might have some shade something that would encourage people only four more until I get to it's only four more, you know, it's only three more instead of it's a half a mile. Well, it's only four more. It's not that far. I can get there. Four feels better than half a mile. Um, and then another thing that the people who speak to aren't here to speak to is Lake Avenue to the Coast to Coast Trail and there's a group of runners in the community who have asked for years to get they call the Claremont cardio challenge which would be a series of steps from the coast to coast trail up to Ocola Avenue which is a pretty high elevation and it would be quite the challenge they thought. So the concept that kind of came from those groups and the sports meetings or biking meetings was with modern technology you could have an app that existing app timers on your phone or your we have park run for example they use barcodes. So there could be a technology that you could activate either at the nodes or at the beginning or at the end or just the cardio challenge and then on our website for example we can have Claremont champion

leaderboards where people from all over the world would be able to show how they're performing with one another. If you're familiar with rowing, it's kind of like concept two has there might be one running, I don't know, but rowing has like a worldwide leaderboard for people to do their at home and it's a way to activate people across the world is one thing. So that's what Shane had spoke to was he he I don't want to speak for him, but he's not here, so I'll speak for him. He kind of gave me the impression that his preference would be to call it the middle mile. rather than meet me in the middle. That's his team that came up that we could brand that and promote it and make it about the entire mile to pull people in to draw to downtown that champions challenge. You know, this this stair ramp combination that you just described, it seems to be like something that an entity could put their name on it. And I'm wondering whether there are the community was ready to build it. I thought we approved it. I asked Todd earlier today and he said he didn't. I thought we had approved the engineering for it because the people in the community were prepared to build it. They just wanted permission to go onto the public property and for us to engineer it. So they built it the proper way and they were prepared to your point easy to put names on it. I mean the hero's concept you could have fallen soldiers you could do all sorts of different things that you might want to do on that but the point would be activate people to go downtown from that waterfront.

So you said I thought does that mean that we don't know what's happening to it? I don't know what's happening. It's a great name. I mean it's like the right it's easy to say versus better than

it's a great I mean um but you know very often when we engage in gatherings like this sharets for community visioning or actual comp plans and codes it's very nice to be able to um look at a project and that can be done right away um says, "Look, something happened." Even though usually it has to be something that's been being worked on for a long time and we just can help catalyze making happen. And so I wonder if this isn't one of those projects because it's finite and it's on public property um and it just needs approval and money. So those are big things but less than other things we've talked about. Um, so if you could guide us in what way we could encourage it, um, we would be happy to hear that. We have some people at the table who could make it happen, but if you disagree with it, we'd like to hear about that, too. Um, all right. So, maybe moving up. Well, that was about that followed the question about connections to the waterfront and activating the waterfront. Um, I heard a voice say retail for shops, I think.

Yeah. And where would those I mean, they could be smaller boardwalk shops, little huts or something that could be put in that wouldn't take up too much space. It wouldn't be so invasive to the area, but still keeping that whole. So actually within the space it could be like a retail type of like the tiny building and it would take the same but ideally that'll require parking space. So some of them like the bike you put bike shop but you're right.

No but the code can very easily say buildings less than xt do not require parking. I don't want to jump into parking, but it's making me You just made me think that you're requiring parking for everything. And John, we just changed the code, right? We just We did just change the code in the central business district that depending on the type of use, then you're not required to do parking or if you are required to do parking instead of providing it on site, you have option to pay into the parking fund, which is $3,000 of space. So, it's already looking forward to a shared parking, right?

That that again that that was the direction by council at the time is $3,000. Do they know how much it really costs? They have a I think they do. I did bring that up, but the idea was to not just use them. Exactly. us on other ways. Do you have a requirement to share this parking to allow property owners to share parking?

Well, not so much a requirement, but there is there is um in the code that you can do like remote parking agreements. We had a couple businesses downtown or projects to where they had agre written agreements with maybe the funeral home be able to park in their parking lot stuff like that. I was actually thinking behind Montro where there's small increment of buildings and we did a downtown plan years ago in Connecticut and um when we every property owner had to provide for their own parking it became quite ownorous but if you allow them sh All of a sudden it frees up. Do you have something like that here?

No. No. Not in terms of shared parking. Yeah. Not necessarily provided within their limit. Yet it's only for office and retail that would not be required to provide parking. So if a building expanded, there was office or retail on the first floor, they wouldn't be required to provide additional parking or pay into. So you're encouraging office and retail.

Um so when you said activation, you meant those little things in the green. Um the artwork is made of small components, isn't it? and it extension is intended to be. So there's a kind of emerging a focus on small retail kind of incubation retail which may be the most practical these days anyway and if it's maybe it's on wheels so it has a different permitting

well something I have to talk to at all but but also I've traveled a lot and I you know I I've seen in New York and other cities where places where they have different festivals different events things like They have little very small um places where people can oh for this event I'm renting out this little space and so like Dash could even have oh okay they only need a 10 by10 or a 5x5 or whatever down there and then they could say they can give them all the information and go oh if you need that go up to our main store or I mean you know I mean there's there's things like that that you could also that that could be permanent spaces, but it has doesn't have to be a dedicated permanent space because it probably would make sense for them five days a week to have anybody manning that space,

you know. So, I mean, so things like that are other optional ways that you can do that as a display. Yeah. Right. which which works really well for for Christmas and and different festivals and things like that where people just want to have a place for them to display their goods versus just putting a tent up. I mean, if the tent works well and we're getting a lot of results from that, but something like that that's a little more fixed might be nice, too. Mika, Michigan does a program like that and they use sheds. Yeah. So, they went out to the shed shop and got the cutest sheds and these are under and they just require a plug in.

Yeah. So, it doesn't require the building permit. They don't require parking to it. It's something they can rent really, really cheap. You know what sheds cost here. If they don't like the orientation of it, they're a shed. You just slide it to where it needs to be. And they've used it there as a way to line the street to nurture businesses. It still had the aesthetic is what you're wanting to go with. Yep. It looks just like that. You don't have to go anywhere anywhere fancy. You just go out to the shed shop. I'm sure you've got So, who who man who manages something like that?

That is in Moskegan. They have their downtown economic development. So, the people that do festivals, the folks that are looking to nurture businesses much like here, they don't have a lot of shops right now. It's a simple management. They partnered with the um uh small business administration. So for businesses that want to come in, they have so many people that want to rent these out. They require them to go to the Small Business Administration and take a course to get a business plan and then they apply very low risk. bring it opens up to a network of other professionals and opens them up to additional finances.

And also, and you guys probably wrote the article, but I remember seeing many articles about it that it actually helped the retailers. So, some people are afraid to come in because they think they think it may hurt the retailers that are that have a bigger shop, but it actually helped that because of the increased traffic. It brought people together. So,

if you were to walk from city hall here, let's see. You've got a nice parking space here and walk to the waterfront. There's all of those blank spaces, right? The empty lots, the parking lots. In Moskegan, they have that problem. So, people will park and they leave. By having those little shop fronts, it becomes fun. It becomes an experience to walk through town. They're changing out all the time. So, now we're going to come downtown park as long as I'm going to walk past this. It's so funny. Now, they the mayor won't let them sell the property. It's now built up to the point ready for redevelopment. They tested it and businesses want to go in and economic development folks are saying, "No, no, mayor. We can just move them on the other side of the street. We'll develop this block. We'll move on the other side where there's the other parking lot." So, very low risk. This is like a They spent like 15,000 on that project. It paid for itself and $100 a month or whatever it was, right? seven years that included the two years of

so um that was the economic development department. This um in some places a bid would be taking care of that. Is there a bid here? There's just the main street just main street overlapping you have the the CRA

and main streets do run programs like that. I've been involved with different communities where we've done that. Um because the whole point is you're developing the micro retails to grow them into bigger spaces. My concern about them being just along the parking lot on the waterfront is it doesn't solve the problem of there really being two different spaces. You have the downtown space that you're in or you're down waterfront and there's like this for some reason So I would think that the art using the art would make a lot more sense because you space to that space or vice versa and you kind of think to those whether it's some other way from one but we have to have a connector. The problem with eighth street is that as you start going down, you go by the sides of houses and parking and then there's empty land and so there is no connection. And also I've found myself wondering whether the other side of street from the salt shack shouldn't be something. So it's not just one destination, but it's actually entry point. So that brings up, I guess, the city as landlord, which we haven't really talked about at all. Is the salt check on city land? It's private land.

But does the city presumably the city has land that is managed for private use? How come we don't? So that means um Main Street and Nathan's office would have to do more work to manage things. They come up with a structure for it. possible just it just doesn't exist.

So that's a compliment I think is the management and one of our slides tonight points out that we have essentially three tools for placemaking design policy and management and management usually comes first. We don't see it. about keeping places clean and safe, but it's also about programming. And the programming requires active management, you know, business management. So maybe that's something to be thinking about in the long term.

Well, I tried to find if I had any pictures of that and I don't these are much bigger, but basically just look at this on a much smaller scale like this was up in Canada and see I mean where where the You could have something much smaller than that. But the same thing where you really have a nice these are like um Yeah, those are those are a little bit and that's a lot bigger than what I was thinking, but and you won't see this, but anybody who's been to Seaside knows that the what was Daryl's first made of many little pavilions,

how successful that was. It uh reminds me of like Bryant Park in uh Christmas time. They have the holiday market in Bryant Park. Uh and it's just a walkable market that has all these collapsible and buildable uh booths of shops that show up. That could be something that could like activate Victory Point during the holidays or where the amphitheater is. There is a farmers market. Yep. Can we hear about that a little bit? How often you'll be able to see on the parking lot?

That's better.

Another thing right now, the original intent of the art was proposed was to have along that artwork. That could be another location for those sheds to activate that that piece of the art where the airream where well no just along south. Yeah, the prot areas for activation and then the the parking lot that is adjacent to Sack is city. Oh, the one to the the parking lot to the

to the west is but I was wondering on the other side of the street on the eight they have their own parking lot but then you also have the city yeah but um what I was referring to was to the right of the salt check in other words that would be where the US in the middle is that that area a little bit further Yeah. No, I guess it's on the right place. Yeah. Okay.

Um All right. Those are now maybe we could go a little bit beyond and um refer to some of the neighborhood the residential areas on the edges of downtown and um transformations that are predicted in the future land use map of 2009 but to which there might be some objection as we were hearing this morning. Let's see the whole area then because there of course some nice historic structures very close in

zoom. Um, we'll go to Google.

But I I guess we did hear some things this morning about the transformation of single family to um which to the commercial which right now is what is it office res

office? Now, I want I just wanted to mention something. In 2015, we did expand the central business district in downtown East and pretty much West Avenue out further to 12 Street. So, that was quite a bit of chunk of land that we brought in, incorporated in the central business district of the downtown. And we also expanded uh pretty much from Dodto all the way to Highway between West Avenue and I believe. So we we did have an expansion in 2015 to to expand the area

and what was the idea? Let's just take the um western part first. How did you imagine um that that might change? The re some of the reason behind that is we're getting a lot of um interest to develop that area on around the Vicky Point area, the lumber yard area and then the area between along Minnola Avenue all the way to 12 Street. There were certain pockets there because there was like C1 like commercial zoning back then in several areas and then of course the lumber yard was industrial zoning. And did you imagine that the buildings along the east west streets would change over time to a higher density building?

We did uh cut a lot of that out along Montro Street. Um mainly the smaller parcels that might have been residential, we didn't include those. That's why you have the well you don't have a boundary up there, but it does jag up around and come back down. So those were excluded forward on that. We'll do the same on the east after we've looked at the west just to make sure we understand. load all of their things. It's going to take forever. What about our slide? expanded along.

Yeah.

Isn't the purple industrial did that become blue? No. I mean the flu is scheduled to become commercial. No, that green piece next to the M1 that's that's actually been commercial now. That was just

And then in the other direction to the to the to the east. Um looking at it there, not much changed on the east. It pretty much followed city hall on Montro out to Fifth Street and took half the block pretty much stay the same. A lot didn't change on the east except between city hall south to highway 50.

Could you go to I think just below are the two slides together the zoning and the So, um, all of that brown on the plume, there's a lot of brown area that's moving into the single family is medium density residential. And likewise below 50, south of 50, the first rank of single families becoming beige medium densities.

Yeah, medium density residential which you know 12 units. So arguably too low but that's like the expansion of the central business district exactly. It did when we expanded it in 2015. We tried to mirror it as much as possible.

Um, in terms of that, but we did uh we did contact every land owner and give it a city initiative that we were directed to go ahead and carry out. And I think we only had maybe one or two property owners that did not want to participate in their in the change to the central business district. But then since that time, the property has been bought and sold and changed either like it was N1 that went to the PUD for the lumber yard or actually a piece right over here where um the market is on West Avenue that was C1 light commercial and they changed it when they did that project. So

C1 has a 0.25 which is very very low. Why is it your downtown has an commercial? That's my understanding that's what it's historically been. I mean, I can't answer that other than historically that's what

I mean you got you got to figure you got to park it and you have to step storm water. setbacks. So when you start building the box inside the sandbox, you might be limited by those things. Yeah.

So it's just not knowing how to use it software. Well, one of the um I think that we need to come to terms with and Paul Crabtree is here to help us with that and we'll be covering it. Another topic is the storm water requirements for downtown and how that might constrain or you know whether it's another zone like the victory point facility that I must say it looks um extreme for the geography that it covers from my non-engineering eye. I'm trying to get clarity.

It's not clear. But it's the ones we've seen limited scope. But I mean at some point if there is to be I presume that plume which is densifying the eastern side to the right must have taken that into account in some way storm water management.

Um I can't answer that. I mean that was done by the public service engineering department but I know there are bases I did talk to Paul briefly so based on wherever the geographic divide is my understanding seventh street is sheds to the west if you're on the west side and if you're on the east side of seven street it goes to the east

just like Montro you know just like Montro my understanding is it's going to shed to the south so it's just wherever the geographic divides are in capacity in that bas pretty much viewers was a great investment in terms of storm water is such an issue in the area. I understand the requirements for storm water on site are much higher here because of the nature of the soils also because you're above the Florida aquifer and so you have to provide a lot of room for that in that facility enables more development

so that I'm still focused on um brown area to the east of downtown. Um if that's a transformation of its existing condition and that would require a similar scale. So we we did we did put in the in the comp plan a policy that says if you are adjacent to the central business district and you're in medium medium density district you do have the ability to go to 12 unit there is a policy in there but again we haven't had anybody uh come in and go through that process

and when you do assign it though it's not necessarily adjacent we didn't read that yes it's not adjacent it's within a distance, you are correct from what I remember. But again, we haven't had anybody come in and go through that process and could be because they have to go to the for city council for a conditional use permit to get the numbers, could be parking, it could be the size of the lot, it could be a lot of variables, the density is too low. It could be that they didn't know. I didn't know right next uh if I had known them, maybe I would have applied for the process. I didn't know. So that is in there that polic for the transition.

Um, so that would that implies the loss of the historic houses that might be there. The old wooden Victorians or there's a few of them, right? Bungalows. Not a lot. There's a few. And to be frank, there are some that are actually I don't know if they're condemned, but they're definitely vacant. And repair. Is that because the land is already being speculated on? Could be absentee land.

It could be absentee landlords. It could be people who used to live in the community, their family moved out and they house like there are variety of conditions. But I would say um when it comes to residential, we have that problem. We also have some of that with the commercial. I'm sure you have seen some vacant buildings that we have such as the store appliance. We have buildings that I've been sitting and for a while. So what are those moving to that? What are those vacancies about? Is it multiple fourth generation owners who were just sitting on a property or I don't know. Does anybody

Whichs people thought they were going to do something with it and then they decided to not do that. would facilitating encourage those people to revel. I mean they own a lot of buildings downtown. Yes.

And then everything else they have is used. It's just they what they bought that He lives here. Yeah. And like I said, everything else they have is very well maintained and on it from a main street perspective. I'm glad that they aren't messing with it if they don't intend to keep it because that's actually a contributing structure. short right now.

That was actually part of the reason you're speaking at one building. Which one is that? plays a part of that. So to your point, if there was added value by

what along 50 we've spent a little looking at the resurfacing proposals for 50 and we've um been thinking about the entries along eight. Um but there are other commercial properties along 50 that could be potentially encouraged to change. There's a there's a missing tooth. There was an auto old fashioned auto shop something happenth

No, I'm talking about the bacon auto sale used to be there and then the repainted black but no I thought you were talking that's a gateway if you will right there to the right that one blank slate and there's a bank vacant lot behind it all it's a whole block it's huge

and on the other side of the street you have the lake do villa which is really cute probably 1980s project with I don't know what are those duplexes or something like two two units or four units per building

and then further used to be an auto parts store that's been vacant for 50 So, since we're looking at link dot like dot right there, we just um approved a food truck trailer um on that corner where it says dumpster today. Yes.

So, there's a food truck or trailer that's kind of into that little section there. We're so where the actual goddess on 50th on that corner right there with Avenue and 50th go west. There you go.

Right there. So that is a vac lot um owned by seniors who I guess they're bringing in their crab cakes and so they're putting in a food trailer there which is kind of you know once you know it came to us and it was f by the council but it's a good kind of addition to what could be for lake dot to kind of bring the people to do and actually have an enjoyable way to enjoy some food and actually use that What was that process? You said it had a a food truck had to go to council.

Oh yeah. Yeah. So the funny thing is is that we don't have a food truck ordinance. So they had to get a C. Um and that process was interesting because of they had to get an engineering plan. They had to get an engineering plan and they actually had to have a storm water retention pond which was kind of odd the way it was so large. I Yeah, that was an interesting process.

We were not ready to take into consideration things like that like um somebody wanted to take wanting to take advantage of a vacant lot that is perhaps uh and uh sorry wanting to take advantage of a vacant lot but not wanting to build something necessarily permanent. We we don't have anything in the code for that right now. But it was it was a food truck like a wheel. It's a trail. It's a trail. We call it a Yeah. Yeah. It's a food trailer. The little shed. You couldn't drive it. Huh? You couldn't drive. No, they they hooked it up, right? Yeah.

Yeah. But like the those little sheds and cabanas and things they talked about, that's something to be aware of. If you have to go through and get special permission, they will never that just never happen. Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't like it, you know, you bond it or you have to.

And at least here in Claremont, at least here in Claremont, we have, in my opinion, a lot of gaps, a lot of vacant properties. So allowing for things like that, popups, like people like food trucks are controversial, but like sheds, popups, and other types of businesses that are um easy, temporary to set up, that would be a way to fill in those gaps. And we We're basically bringing more traffic. Well, whoever is going to be managing this might consider having a prototype that's just permitted.

And all you do is get the approval to put it down like a pre-approval type of process. If you meet the characteristics, just make it easier for that particular project. It was there was so much engineering involved for just one trailer that goes in and out. Yeah, it was it was it wasn't

spend a few spent some time at the Lincoln Park with two residents of Lincoln Park who are here this morning, but we shouldn't leave out the opportunity to speak to Lincoln Park. And among the things that were discussed were was a community proposal for a community center. Uh and also the large open site along 27 um uh which um apparently has high density expectations 300 units apparently.

Yeah. They came in proposed a live local uh project there but it hasn't moved forward since the community meetings and this a couple year year and a half ago. We haven't heard from an applicant that was met the requirements to do design services. So they started down that path but they never completed. Do I know if that's been I believe that project. Okay. Yeah. But just to understand what expectations might have been raised, how much of that was affordable,

whatever was required on the far statutes. Again, we didn't we didn't get to that point. They came through and uh gave us, you know, the conceptual site plan, we ran through some of the numbers with them. One of the things that we we required for live local is they have to conduct their own workshop with the community. And I believe they went and did that. They never made that pretty much it.

So, as it um as we were as it was being looked at this morning, the concern was um trying to keep the traffic out of the neighborhood adjacent. You know there was an access point there at 27 right in right out. Uh if you zoom in right there underneath and you go back turn the aer photography back go further south. Um there was access right here from 27 before they redid the 275. So, um, does that mean you can't make a right turn off 27?

Oh, that it was cut off in order to make this. Now, I do believe there is a curb cut further north 27. There it is. It's south of that bank. Go south a little bit. Right there. See it? But again with the taper in ramp that's the all controlled by so I don't know how that is access

uh not through there if you zoom in there it does not meet the width requirement for a public street that correct her correct me if I'm wrong behind the twisty tree. lane. That's not public. It's not a public requirement for public. So, they would have to go all the way to block unless they correct.

It's probably it's it's probably on the east side and our requirement for public 60 foot rideway and I think it's only it's very narrow. There just not enough rightway

to put the public. So, I think one of the things we've noted um going through the neighborhood is there are some duplexes that are going in there and um closer to downtown. Um there one story and they seem to be putting the garages in the middle to be shared or not sharing. Probably for sound,

you know that they have the garages between them. They're not having shared a party wall. I mean one question I think staff might have for you is when we look at projects more than two units in one to do the requirements of commercial. So any any law that's zoned R3 essentially that allows for multif family would have to go through that process if it's more than two units up to 12 units right and again if they walked in and said I want to do a quadplex and say okay you're going to do parking meet the parking codes for commercial landscaping storm water

but is thating the provision of are those requirements to owners sometimes and then also I don't know the shape of the lock. I can tell what I hear is like it only gets to them if it hasn't gone through like private analysis and just people sell like not like I don't I don't even waste John's time with that phone call. It doesn't it doesn't pencil out to do those triplexes or quads because you got to meet the higher standard.

That's why I'm wondering because I'm looking at your zoning and you have a lot in downtown that's R3 that in theory allows 12 units to make 12 units per any of that question by late but not many at all. So curious as to why that may be the reason that and also I think you have to go to council for um multif family approval 12. So in other words, there's no right. Yeah. It's not a permanent.

Yeah, that's another old

we get rid of unit. Yes. You know, I guess the question is what is the minimum habitable from a architectural standard building standard? Most cities, most of the cities where we work, they're doing away with minimum living areas. As long as they meet building

exactly, it's also to help address the affordability issue. We hear microities have increased have doubled since 2020. I will say that in some very popular areas which is not necessarily for housing is an issue and having to require requiring somebody to build a minimum size of a house which is not necessarily what is required for a good quality of life is a big hindrance on that. There is a reason why Tokyo is the most affordable an affordable affordable mega city whereas New York is not all because of the other reasons, but primarily.

So, if we can be ahead of that curve to make sure that we can still have affordable housing for work for for people that are working downtown, I think it will be time well spent.

Actually, let me like continue. I'm sorry. Like same thing for uh commercial, which I know we have already spoken for, but uh commercial real estate is not particularly affordable and garden. There are I they're having issues with big firms buying this commercial lots and kicking out the local businesses that are there that have been there for many many years. And I'm afraid of that happening in Claremont because something that I keep hearing about is the reason people love this downtown so much is the local businesses that we have. So housing affordability for our workforce, but also if we could have provisions that would enable us to have also some affordable commercial popups have something even more substantial. I think we could have a thriving downtown that remains uh incredible for many. You could preclude aggregating blocks beyond a certain size to prevent the big

somebody comes in and puts a massive building there. Just don't allow it. Don't allow to hire some. You can also like eliminate the fragility of only having one main. So that starts happening

because you have health. The big challenge, one of the big challenges that we have is that how we are split by 50, by US 27, by other strokes. Um, so if we could have mills in each community that could serve the needs of that community, they wouldn't have to get on, sorry, there's the meeting about downtown. Here I am talking outside of the town, but they wouldn't have to get on those roads and we would have less traffic and we would have high quality high quality This way would be a perfect place to have another Well, I guess it is related. We're talking about each place having a small downtown or a little neighborhood center for some neighborhood.

We're getting close to the end, but I think there's one thing that I'm concerned about, which are there are some significant empty sites

between Montro and the lake for which various we Understand various proposals have been made including parking deck and so on and contin what might be the best supporting cast for downtown they're tremendous opportunities given their size. point us to the property that we're talking like are we speaking about the yard specifically that through one of those sites? Okay.

And adjacent to the other.

So one to the right looking Oh, the property. Yeah.

Well, to my understanding that the Hoy property is the proposed site for the art extension. I don't know how that's going to look like. The artwork takes up very little of that space. So, it's a it is my many things. Yeah. Um, my understanding is that the city council wants to purchase property to just carve out the art and then turn around and sell the rest to a commercial developer. Um, but I don't know what stipulations in place to ensure that whatever is put there is actually that would be interesting

and the other one was projected to be the parking garage but we were thinking that that's not the best use of commercial frontage. Um, but those are just considerations. What other um what else should we be thinking about those?

Okay. So, I've never been involved in the zoning or any of that stuff at all. Okay. But, you know, when you're talking about different downtowns and keeping that homey feel and everything else, one of the ones that just came to mind just while we were sitting here was uh Auburn University. You know, if you look at the, you know, the thing I loved about Auburn downtown was it was that homey feel, walk, green spaces, all that stuff was wonderful. They've completely redone downtown. And you still have all the local shops. You still have all that stuff, but what they've done is when they anytime they redid a building, they redid a building and put apartments above it. And so and and that even really helped support all the businesses there because now you had people that were actually living there and walking up and down and it just it just made a much better overall feel for the whole community. And you still kept that small downtown, you know, and we talk about affordable housing, you know, if if just renting apartments above the space, that's that's a lot cheaper than going let's be able to put how many single family homes can be put in this little spot, you know. So just I'm just throwing that out there. I've never looked in the media that makes sense.

And it's interesting that you brought up the Auburn example um because that is I think something that can be desirable. Um but one of the things that needs to be understood is that if you're going to replace something that's there, it has to have a multiple density because you're buying the land paying for the building if you're going to take down to build. It's got to be at least three to five stories if it's starting out to be one story. So

I know that three stories is something that we've heard mentioned, but that may be too limiting, not encouraging enough, right? I mean there's only res but I think the capacity is a question with regard to actually actual implementation. I got a question for Jeff. Three to five story you got put an elevator in. So you have a small site required to go at least three ele

there is an FHA issue when you hit four units you need to have What's interesting is the extra level from three to four, the actual finances don't work out. The marginal cost for that fourth floor actually mean you make less money. So that's why you don't see a lot of see some you don't see a lot of storage buildings in context. So like three more than three. So that that's basically clean way to say it, right? Or we could listen to John in the back give us treatment. We don't have that much time.

Well, it's 2:30 beyond 2:30. So, we should probably cut this off. Oh, I'm sure there's that's just the one I'm familiar with just came places. Sorry. Take out all the chairs. Oh, heat. Hey. Heat. Heat. Yeah,

yeah.