Architectural Review Board - Regular Meeting

set be all right Mr chair we are live all right very good uh let me call this evening's meeting of the architecture review board to order is Thursday February 13th at 6:30 and U that's staff would call the RO right it looks like Vice chair Jo Jones is not with us uh chair lvy here uh board member man is not with us uh secretary Ritter here member Parsons here alternate rman here council member liaison n here and our Planning and Zoning commission Le is on Mr con here is here on Zoom with us think spoke but it didn't pop up we can see your mouth move all right and Mr M will we serve alter we P voting rights so the minutes of the January 14th meeting are both in your packet and were distributed in advance the motion would be in order to approve those minutes unless there are any amendments or Corrections Mr R has moved Parson is seconded any discussion I hi hi both may the eyes have it the minutes are approved um the agenda tonight uh other than public comments is that we will have two cases tonight that we will be dealing with uh mattress do do and then the city's U um Gutter Gutter uh any comments or changes to the agenda that we need to address if not we will move on uh public comment

other than getting into the individual cases where we'll be separate are there any other public comments that anybody will have on anything else if not then we will move beyond that and any online comments no we don't have anybody for online comments Mr we have one person online but they are uh representative for the next case gotcha okay very good um old business I'm not aware of any old business anyone else if not we will proceed on we're now into new business and the first is mattress dogs and we will ask the staff to read in the case if you would please thank you Mr chair uh board members our first case this evening uh concerns a wall a new wall sign uh in our Wildwood Town Center uh this wall sign does require variances from the board of adjustment uh to its overall size and to its lettering height um as you are aware uh chapter 45400 sign regulations does require this board to review all uh signs requiring baranes and provide your comments suggestions and recommendations which will be forwarded to the board of adjustment in the form of a memorandum uh this meeting uh will be heard next Thursday February 20th uh this mattress store will be located in a building within uh Town Center's downtown district it is uh South located Southwest of the intersection of Highway 100 and Taylor Road um the uh Plaza Drive and address such uh it is uh zoned uh planned uh or

C8 planned commercial uh District um and does have a governing ordinance associated with it uh the lot size is approx proximately an acre just over um and it is located in Ward 8 uh here is an aerial of the building in question uh the mattress uh store is requesting uh to have multiple sign wall signs um including three on the wall face uh facing that intersection of uh Highway 100 in Taylor Road um but the one that concerns the board this evening is the one on the uh inside of the building facing the parking lot um this is just one wall sign requiring uh these two variances um and this is what uh the uh applicant is proposing the sign to look like um and we're looking at this mattress dog sign here uh these are the dimensions of the wall space associated with the signage uh they are important because our code allows uh one square foot for every linear foot of wall space which is 16 feet 3 in in this case um so this takes us to uh the dimensions of the proposed signage um that 16 point or 16 Fe 3 in translates to 16.25 square F feet of overall signage that's overall size that's allowed uh they are requesting 50 square ft and then uh we also uh require that all signs meet a lettering height uh regulation of 24 in uh the applicant in this case is requesting a lettering

height of 60 in uh this signage will be stud mounted into the facade of the building um and we've confirmed with the applicant that it will not be internally lit and there will be one inch of space uh between the lettering and the wall of the building um and these are the mounting specifications here uh that concludes my introduction to this case uh the applicant's representative from the sign company is here to present to you this evening uh but if you have any questions for the department at this time we're happy to answer them any questions for the department so is this done to scale this mockup here it's accurate H I believe an accurate representation yes I mean it's a it's a rendering so I wouldn't say it's exact but but it's representative of what they're asking for with the 50 a lettering height of 60 inches and and 50 yeah okay thank you yeah go ahead I appreciate it Mr chair Mr chair and members of the board just a couple of footnotes Robin did a excellent job of kind of describing the nature of the request that'll be before our repard of adjustment just a couple of things uh first our Planning and Zoning commission this coming March at its meeting public hearing on potential modifications to our ass regulations one of them is how we calculate size back in 2006 we went to that one foot of linear one foot of L linear um space equals 1 sare of of sign size that was a departure from what we had previously done which was

5% of the area of the sign so to speak and if go to that other so we measure it now just based upon that linear distance of the tenant space or the length of tenant space previously we used to do it by multiplying these two factors height and width and taking 5% and at this meeting in March we're actually going to maybe discuss going back to that what we're finding this this Dimension alone without calculating the two together we're not getting proportional signs in these larger spaces and proportion as Mr Ritter knows better than I is a key element to make things look like they should should be there versus they're too big or too small and so I just wanted to let you know what we're thinking about I did the calculation on this relative to the 5% and it came out to almost 58 square feet in this case the applicant is only seeking 50 but just some background thank you can I approach the screen yeah sure please may maybe this is more of a personal issue can can we go back to yeah what when I first opened my packet and the first thing I saw was this it's like it's like well with that being up up here and as large as it is and stuff it seems to diminish the businesses that are on the side and the thing that I asked myself was why couldn't they just

go in go in here and and then be more cohesive with the other businesses that are there I mean you're going to look up here and you're going to see this big sign and you're you're going to see that but it diminishes the the other businesses that are there and and like I say maybe it's just me but but that kind of bothers me if they put it in here then then it BL LS in with the other businesses that are already there just my thought I I share some concern that I about kind of the mismatch of the attention I mean I appreciate that and we'll hear I guess from the petition in a minute but I I share I gu some concern as well about the mismatches it kind of Blends in with everything but but maybe we should go to the petitioner and get what they want to say and then we can finish discussing if we if we may so I assume that's please I'm Ray Martin with mattress dogs um really we would wanted to add our logo to it and then also I guess the biggest thing for us was that it was supposed to be lit so I don't know if that's why we didn't put it down below because it didn't have the lights um but we have a bigger square footage I guess you would say going this way the way to put it um so and just being the kind of corner Marquee we were trying to add the MD above it so what we at and when we and I'm not sure how you calculate this but when we actually did the calculations I didn't go all the way down to the bottom like under like Mystique nail and spot has that that gray area so I didn't calculate it all the way down to that if we had maybe it would um allow for it to be larger like more that size are you guys following me no so I I just um I just used the brick to do the calculation instead of the

brick all the way down to the stco is what I'm trying to say so to cl to clarify just to respond to that one point if I may um under the current regulations we are simply looking at this number here which wouldn't change if we expanded the space now once once we go forward and potentially adopt that new regulation that director bonich was discussing then it would come into play um but in this case the number would stay the same and that would be that 16t 3 in okay please Mr person I I'm looking at can we go back to that original it it is a lit sign I mean I'm I'm looking at two spotlights or whatever up above uh on that one and and the other two businesses that are on that photograph here so it is lit up and to clarify what the department said earlier we said would not be internally lit um externally lit signage is allowed per code and it's um therefore not under review for for the experience request and if I may that's why we put it up there it's because that's where your down lights are already there we we those are already installed we wouldn't put those up Dan did you have something uh I did that was my question on if that's going to be lit from there or from in the side I don't please I'm sorry is there signage for the store on the other side of the building yes three and the other side of the building those signs are all consistent with code those are not an issue is that correct that's correct sir okay so we're just dealing with this side exactly and since our sign code they have two frontages Plaza Drive Taylor Road

actually three with st Route 100 and so they get two signs on at least three of or two of the walls multiple frontages give them the option of two signs how big is their Frontage on the other side how big is the sign this particular unit is like a it's narrow on the front and goes widens out as it faces toward rout 100 to tailor road so I so they give a far bigger sign yeah and what they're doing is actually doing three components for a single sign which are code allows so it won't be a single band but it'll be one sign two signs three signs collectively being considered one sign and a single sign I have a picture if you'd like me to bring it to you uh anybody yeah I guess okay this is the back of just I just brought it if I may just say one more thing when we redid it to fit the current guidelines the only thing we can put on there is the word mattress dogs and it's relatively small for that great big space and it looks a little disproportional for that larger space did anybody else want to see this that's the back side I just have a question about I noticed that heels and Mystique are both like a black and white pretty much is are there any color restrictions I mean looking at that almost looks and it probably isn't but just looking it almost looks like fluorescent but I don't know if that's what your logo looks like in general or if I just didn't want it to look like neon like when you I don't know it just kind of jumps right out at you but I know that's what you want you wanted to jump right out so you can see it but yeah it's not it's not neon it's not it does kind of look a little like that the D does but it's just a peach color okay it's

not please thank you Mr chair and council member n I'm not sure as I mentioned RL Jones now owns the properties prior to that was a different owner they may have had restrictions on how the signage looks and RL Jones may not so certainly if it's something you want us to explore as the board will be glad to I just wondered because there everything on there has always been more muted and more quiet and then that's like and I didn't want the other businesses too to be like how come they can do that but there may have been a reason why they can do that and they weren't previously allowed to there two more there's only two more properties further out and what what are their signs do we know oh wa Thomas has to say that's what I was going to ask could we I I think the Starbucks sign is the traditional dark green um and I know that the exercise coach I believe their sign is not black and white too but on I actually can pull it up and share the screen in a second if you guys would like one second I should good question I guess you should be the code rather than other retailers who dictate what the SS look like but I think we're sensitive to what what the overall appearances of that uh in the signs if top can find it all right one second here okay so the photo from Google Images is not going to help us out too much but we it can give us some reference one second I can share my screen it's seems like this photo was taken a decent time ago I'll share it here can everyone see my screen and about she's there we go thank you the

Starbucks actually did go with a white uh there that's not the traditional Starbucks logo but I do know they have another sign let me see if I can this might yeah this picture was taken before they put up that sign see if this was taken so they went with the traditional white on both sides with a black drive-thru sign that's because they have that additional Frontage um the exercise coach that's the one I was thinking of has this bright orange um that is still there and is existing and then the hair salon for men does have a slight red in it but the majority of it is that black and white so I'd say you know Bar None the majority of these signs are pretty consistent with black and white and what was or is or between hail salon and xise Coach xise U what did they have before do we know where was there there's no sign that it was in that one area open for yeah the one that mattress dogs is looking to uh is going to be move is moved into that uh building has been that specific space has been vacant Joe I would I mean it's been probably you know going on five six years I forget the actual Last Tenant that was there it was a jewelry store jewelry store yeah originally it was US Cellular to tell you how long ago that was yeah and then the jewelry store that mov from Ellisville out to here it's been a long time it has been yeah so is that same signage so they went with that traditional white the only one that seemed to Veer oh here it is that's that start I knew I saw that somewhere the Starbucks uh original logo that they are famous for uh is located on that side facing State Route 100 um

but their other two signs are cordoned off to that basic white I'll go ahead and stop sharing my screen um what what about the 3zs we're missing the 3zs on here I think it's just very well it seems if I if I R if you want to put that back up I think it's like very small but in the corner there if I'm if I uh saw it correctly I do see something on there is that the case okay I see from the applic that's thees are on there yes yeah right there can't see them they're very tiny right at the base of that g other comments or questions anyone any thoughts on the proportion I I still have a little bit of concern that that it scks out more it's not consistent in I guess both thighs and coloring and everything but I I don't you hate to kind of dictate too much when you're trying to do a business but it it does seem inconsistent with everything else that's there Jo if you don't mind with your permission chair do Joe is there any restrictions do we do we have any restrictions that we can place uh within the Town Center I know this is also a sid within the Sid so that's a whole another matter but um that would prohibit uh certain colors I know we have a pallet for other design standards but for actual signage do you know of anything within our sign code I

don't think I'm familiar if we can limit limited but I do think there's some I I would love your opinion on that Joe there is not our color palette is limited to Colors proposed for the elevations of the building itself Etc signage wise we do not example all of that is alloy Fitness which is on Main Street here on on the lower level of the two-story building they have a yellow sign Jones has a green one so there's there's some flexibility at least in terms of our code relative to the color of the lettery and then uh Joe if you could repeat to so this um would this sign what was the total square uh square footage of it 50 square feet I proposed what was that Joe 50 square feet so it's the height restriction that's causing the issue that and the size y as Rob um okay and then and I know you mentioned this Joe but one thing that I think the Planning and Zoning commission but also the economic development committee will be taking a look at is that uh height restriction not necessarily we I think the per foot um rule that we have that gives that uh gives size a little bit more square footage per foot of Frontage um seems to be kind of okay and where we might be going but Joe would you almost say that uh if the city and it's not there now were to move to a model that really looks more and neighboring municipalities do this but obviously Wildwood is different we're unique um and we do it for a reason for

new urbanist principles but um is there anything that say we did it by Frontage uh not not by Frontage by square footage a percentage of the of the frontage the facade um would this would this fit or would this be still outside the bounds it it would still be too large Tom by eight square feet approximately and then obviously our 24 inch lettering height yeah come into play what is the square footage of the sign and they're 50 squ foot what is our ordinance right now allow for under the rules oh trying to get back to that yeah that's say yeah 16.25 is what's allowed um and then they're asking for 50 square ft and then they're asking for I believe it's 5T 60 of lettering height and I apologize my 6 C allows for 22 Robin I got it pulled up if you'd like me to read it off well I'm just trying to bring it up for everyone to look at okay I'll be right there so how we have it listed for wall signage specifically and then Robin will pull that up uh the outline area of each sign shall not exceed one square foot of size for every every linear foot of building length so really that Frontage that you have so it's different on as case bases unless having direct Frontage onto a city designated arterial roadway um in this case I believe since they are off

of Taylor and State Route 100 Joe they would have that uh accommodation the only accommodation based upon location is the number of signs not necessarily size or height of lettering oh but so our our sign code though states that uh the zoning ordinance can can accommodate up to two square feet of size for every every linear feet of building length if they're on uh off of a city designated arterial like Clayton Main Street Manchester routee 100 um streker Etc uh that that's not that's not no longer correct that's correct but Plaza Drive is not a city designated arterial and this gotcha so even though they have and that that makes sense they they technically have Frontage and this is this sign is facing Plaza it's not the one that would be facing 100 yes so the one on Taylor and Route the signs on Taylor and Route 100 Taylor Road and Route 100 they have that accommodation but again still can't exceed 50 square fet y yep point and and Joe I think uh you know not to compare apples and oranges here U but somewhat of a similar case uh you know is with Network Technology Partners um that had to that went through the variance request I mean they have a much larger Frontage um a much Lar larger facade and I believe their sign if I remember correctly when within their variance request I want to say it was was smaller than this if I'm incorrect please correct me um but I I believe that they were actually requesting a smaller sign within their variance request I recollection Tom in that

particular case excuse me their lettering height was the key component size was an issue yeah okay so that that case just to give everyone an example that that variance was denied and it it has um a much larger facade I'd have to check the report back but uh to report back but it it it was denied based off these similar grounds and it had a larger facade on the front end other discussion go ahead please I mean I do think when you look at it like that it looks really large like 60 inches it's five feet that's a big tall sign I I guess I just wonder if 24 inches allowed it would still require a variance but would there be a compromise in there somewhere that maybe it's not 60 inches it's I don't know 48 or whatever I'm just throwing out numbers but that would make it not so big but I understand they want you know to be Vis you know visible I I get all that but maybe there would be somewhere in between that's kind of where I'm at is it right now it's almost too much but I I can see a variance maybe to allow a little bit more flexibility and then uh I mean uh with your permission chair one thing to maybe maybe there's a way to meet in the middle here I do I I can see it as their Frontage compared to something along the lines of heels or Mystique Nail Spa they're dealing with a much smaller um facade that they're dealing with uh I I'm thinking a combination between the larger sign that's kind of sticking out M maybe if they could accommodate the blackish coloring that would help

blend it with the other signage maybe wouldn't make it stick out as much I don't know if the petitioner would be open to such a such a request but that may be able to make it blend much better with the lettering that is currently there with heels Mystique Nail Spa um Starbucks as well that seem to accommodate our our code by actually when they did the separate lettering that's pretty rare Starbucks usually plasters all three of their main logos on any um building that you'll see maybe with one saying Starbucks but then having two catty Corning C catty coring it um but I I just want to maybe bring that up as an item is is that even a possibility with the petition potentially think about having it maybe match have that white lettering um maybe have an accent or something along those lines to help it blend better and make it look a little bit more appealing something I'm open to it I guess am I understanding that it would still be the same size if I I believe in my reference here I'm still basing off the same size not necessarily endorsing the size of it but more so saying if if they want to go they're going to be going to the board of adjustment uh to give input I my recommendation would be if you're going to keep it the same size at least maybe try to get it in line with the the similar coloring you could maybe do an accent like the other uh comp the other businesses have done but not doing a fully different color model um than what's currently there at that Plaza I might also suggest that while you're before you go to the next review I would suggest two things one look at that in a a black and white scenario the other is look at that in a smaller colored

version say maybe two-thirds of its existing of its current shown size on the assumption that the other two sort heels and Mystique Nail Spa uh that their signs are consistent with the sign ordinance I guess my question is particularly with Mystique it looks bigger whatever how does their Frontage compare to what what MD does you understand my question Robin could you go to the next I think the next slide actually had a nice little there we go I don't know if we have myses but um I almost would I would almost venture to say within the lighting standard piece that that almost looks like it's at least um 33% bigger uh I would almost say double the actual Frontage size just based off the fact that it's got a much higher uh higher ceiling there but I don't have the dimensions on the other I guess my thought is is I'm looking at trying to balance it out is apply what Mystique has to standards that might apply for MD I know allow somewhat of a larger size but it's it's uh it's just one approach I guess as we're trying to look for a middle ground as as we're dealing with thighs I was going to say his comment was that it's probably twice the size we're looking at over three times the size yeah that's why down exactly somewhat smaller size but not drinking it all the way down yeah and then Robin could you go back one more time sorry to be such a hassle um and then maybe another question here would be is there a Poss possibility of you know I see it says MD and it has the mattress dogs listed there is there a possibility of just having the mattress dogs with the

same coloring what have you um and having it would that if they just had that portion J would you would you uh approximate that that would be within our code or maybe you just do the MD uh one or the other mat dog what you would need yeah so they're both they're both saying the same thing it's just you know please if it's helpful I do have measurements for mystique pleas anybody um so if you go back to the red box for Mattress if I may come up here if you go back to the red box for Mattress dog it'll comp Apples to Apples M Mystique on that same format as 89.5 they're they they Frontage I guess or their facade okay so right around double okay now their sign is not that big but their space is that big but that's what that prescribes them what they're allowed for their sign yes and so I think what we're kind of saying here is it that maybe creates double the thigh standards but not three times which is what you're requesting is what I think we're we're kind of looking at to maybe bring it closer in line with what what else we're seeing okay chair how do you form that into your recommendation I don't know hey hey uh Robin could you go back to the when it's superimposed back on there I just kind of want to Pi one little thing here um you know and and and that's two scale correct Joe Robin

and Melanie I think the applicant would be best okay yes that's to scale uh I guess what I I might say that if we were going that route that we would recommend a variance that would allow two times what wild would allow because what we're looking at our in in our heads as a guideline based on what Mystique has two and that's that's I guess we're if we're trying to put into a recommendation so just from a perspective of the code principally our code identifies two sizes of commercial signs in terms of limitations they're maximum in like the C2 shopping district which is the more intensive of the ones we have it's up to 50 square feet in the are areas where it's more neighborhood orientated 30 squ ft is the maximum so if you were to go to 2/3 you'd be kind of still in the ballpark of what we have in that range between 30 and 50 square feet I don't think so and then in terms of colors or recommendation you would and then Joe would it be appropriate if the board if the the board wishes tonight to give that endorsement or recommendation to potentially offer an option in the black and white or or well I would probably say white with black accent um on the signage going to the board of adjustment is that something you as a group are those like your I don't know if you have other places around the state of the country whatever those are your standard logos colors is that it correct yeah so we're trying to create

some brand coloration uh um the if you'd like I can actually try to pull up a a wait I got two here Tom hold on just a minute please go ahead so the exercise coach the one that was to the far right of the building that has a close tone to what our Peach tone is okay that would match yeah so really it just seems like the darker blue you don't is something that we don't like I I think it's just more a kind of a boldness to it combined with the thighs it just jumps out on it so we're just trying to tone it down so to speak and we're just playing with ways to tone it down but Tom you're gonna say something further I'm sorry go ahead yeah I was gonna say I I could pull up um actually I have it up right here I can share my screen again in a second here and we can take a look at their other location I believe it's in Valley Park if I remember correctly but it does seem it's a consistent application it it does seem like that's what their their General logo looks like um one second here I can pull this up I I respect the fact when you have a brand identity you like to maintain it and maintain that uh Second oh unfortunately Google Images is uh a little outdated in itself as well so um that being said there is a photo I can share my screen after I pull that up just one second with the chair's permission I I I can share my screen and show the the application and another okay Robin need oh Robin I'm gonna send you a request sharing I apologize Robin needs to stop sharing oh gotcha thank

you uh all right let's go ahead here all right so this is the signage and I think they have another little sign over here this is in Valley Park and the petitioner can correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be the signage that's been put up at that location yes then they had the other off to the side too yeah yeah yeah so let me see if I can scroll over there oh that's everybody's getting a mattress um but maybe and that's and uh with your permission chair that was a question I was maybe bringing up was it seems like there's these two logos obviously this mattress dog on the far right of the screen here being a um a part of the overall logo maybe there's a solution where this portion is used um versus using the big MD over it with the the the swoop if you will and maybe that makes it especially with it being single letter I think that would actually just for my personal perspective um probably make it blend into that that uh retail shopping center a little bit a little bit better and it would probably fill out the frontage more too um just my thoughts thank you chair of the building are you using the big MD or you using the mattress dogs just the mattress dogs not the big MD and we did put the mattress dog on the front of the building just the words and it kind of swallows up in the bricks on on the space it doesn't doesn't stand out yeah it it doesn't look good actually but I can see your point like that's pretty bold what if we did like the MD and white and the mattress dogs in white and

then just had this colored swish or something between them I mean is that something that would be like a c Mr chair can i p a screen just an idea take the mattress dogs put it down here in this section and you can do the slash or whatever you want to call that you can do the slash uh above it there and so you you've moved it down you you've got your your logo if you will and and the MD goes away but I but I think it would fit more with the other businesses that are in line on on the building how would that affect the lighting coming down on what that lighting well lighting could move down if somebody would think it needs to be moved down or reposition the uh you know these uh yeah you know it' still be lit right but uh but just mattress dogs down here slash above or or below I mean depending upon what what you feel and uh with the MD going away and and fix the lighting so it's lit and I think it it it would blend more with the uh other businesses that are there just an idea is there um a time element in terms of how quickly you need to do it and I don't know what other approval you need to do to get your business going so uh I guess what I'm what's going through the back of my mind was taking our comments into mind whether you might come back with some new submission because we I I I

feel it's kind of awkward press to dictate to you you what you ought to look like uh you know kind of the concerns and may be advantageous for you based on those concerns to come back to us with the suggestions that we would then move forward but I don't want to deter or or slow down you're trying to get your business open wild one so you're open now open yeah oh you are open now okay I wasn't sure I I drove by but I couldn't tell readily whether it was right I mean I think that's reasonable I can come up with a couple different mockups maybe like his variation and maybe the white variation with the Swish and then just maybe two3 size making I'm sorry maybe two3 size yeah maybe a little bit smaller if if it's going to be readable and and run it by him see which one you like and then we can present it I guess I would just email it to you yes okay that would great I think I mean I think that's probably reasonable that way you guys can see a couple other options do you like that was to say when you see the options you'll you'll figure out which one's the right one Mr chair you would like that those options presented at a board meeting in March presumably March if they're prepared if they're at that point ready to present those yes so just to the petitioners will have to postpone the board of adjustment meeting next week so things will move about a month later just so you're aware for all of the signs or no the the ones on the front whatever on the Manchester side yeah the other side you can proceed with we're not we're not you know making any comment on that and whatever needs to be done could be proceed be just this sign that that raises the question one final question if I was able to get you a

mockup quickly would we still need to wait an entire month like if I could get it to you tomorrow or would we I'm just trying to help him expedite it and whatever it is it is typically haven't done for commission business via emails and taking votes so understood that's a question probably for City Attorney John Young but in the past we haven't okay understood I was just trying to help them get it on I I guess I would propose that there could be two ways to go here um they could take this board's feedback and maybe come up with a couple options for the board of adjustment to consider given the comments that you've made tonight and they will be Pro they will be provided that in a memorandum um it just wouldn't give you a chance to Circle back and make additional comments um but the board could be presented with multiple options next week along with this board's memorandum the other option of course is to bring it back to this board which would postpone everything a month so essentially we we would be we're sharing our comments but we're leaving it to the board of adjustment to determine the Alternatives that they bring next week or next month or whatever when the meeting is and let the board of adjustment make the final conclusion as to whether they're comfortable with it or not that could be one option okay and then of course the other option is is what was being discussed as postponing at a month um but that does mean they would have to read advertise with the board of adjustment and come back to this board I'd be okay with you know they've got our comments I'd be okay with letting the board of adjustment uh you know then take under advisement our comments they make that conclusion but I'll defer also other members of the board here what they think to make come like it wouldn't bother me to see it go to the board and if the board wants to

send it back to us they have the privilege to do so yeah yes do you need a motion or just our discussion is good well I think given what's been discussed here a motion would be uh valuable this case Okay uh I'll try to help people by raing it I would entertain a motion that we defer to the board of adjustment to review Alternatives Pro provided by the the applicant um taking into consideration comments and discussions that occurred at this meeting does that reflect I think what we're trying to accomplish I would entertain that motion I make it motion got a motion made we got a second from Mr Parsons any further discussion just real quick so the guidance we would give them is size size col and and location location and color those are the three things yeah have them look at that in terms of Alternatives that they would come to the board of adjustment with um and allowing the board of adjustment at that point to uh thank you very much and if for some reason the board of Jus wants to KI it back to us they certainly can and may I also clarify uh we were talking about one option pertaining to size keeping the same coloring right and then one option addressing the color I I I guess what I Envision in there is take into account all three of those factors into one option into one option to let them come back with one or more recommendations that the board of adjustment would conclude on so we're not tying their hands as much so some flexibility as to how they may want to entertain those three elements Ian if they want a big sign that's all white I guess they could do it but if the board of adjustments

thinks it's not good then it's not good so uh Mr chair I believe uh Mr Lee has his hand up oh please thank you uh chair I appreciate that um it roben if I could share my screen just one more time here I while we were talking I went ahead and uh wanted to see what that mattress dog without the MD on it would potentially look like superimposed I don't know if this this is obviously not to scale but I'll share my screen just to kind of give everyone a visual to see the kind of limitations I do see it doesn't fill up the facade as much as one would most likely want but I do see it kind of you know maybe fitting um if you did that in a black and white or something along those lines it would almost be identical or maybe there could be be a backdrop but this would still keep in line with their logo that they've used at another location um but I believe this potentially could I would have to see the the revised plan that would be sent but Joe is there a chance that what I'm preparing here could potentially be under that 24 I I don't think it would well actually we could do the math on that too with what was presented um that um that is bigger than the 24 because I mapped it out with the 24 and it's much smaller than that when you superimpose it I think that actually looks pretty good um but when you put it to the to the requirements it's much smaller well in that case um since you know you're and this is just for my opinion since you're requesting a variance from the board of adjustment um I guess would would it be a good idea chair to get uh input from the committee here on whether or not this may be a valid approach to go with this potentially go with this U type of signage but it would still obviously

have um it' probably still be too tall and uh be a little bit bigger but could be a little bit more in line with what's been placed at that area U Already to date I think with with you sharing it Tom that fits with the motion because we've fed thighs location and color so if they find that within the thigh location and color they like that that's what you would come back to the board of adjustment with so I think it fits within the motion that we currently have pending on the floor I would agree with that thank you chair okay any other discussion please if I may just so I understand so I can bring back go to Ray give him a couple different options that take into the consideration we've all spoke about and then I can submit them to you um and the meeting is next week right the meeting is next Thursday come to that again or so we'll come to that options and I have provided multiple options to the board in the past and then they discuss and okay got okay any further discussion on the motion motion is that we are deferring to the board of adjustments to look at uh an alternative proposal one or more that may be submitted by the petitioner that incorporates adjustments to either them size color or location um for for them to then consider and ex act appropriately all those in favor say I I I those oppos nay the eyes have it that is our motion or our recommendation to the board of adjustment thank you Mr chair with your permission um thank you so much uh I also just wanted to let the petitioner know this is a side sidebar if you will but the city does have a uh sign code um review survey for business owners to take within the city of

Wildwood so I just wanted to let the petitioner know that that is available um they would like I could send them the link to the uh or I believe Melanie or Joe or Robin would be able to provide it but if needed I C if you wanna Joe if you want to provide them with my email address I could get that to them just so they can provide input on our side code as well um considering obviously it' be great to hear the input since you're going through the process right now sure thank you chair anything else in on yes then we are now on to the city's proposal which is for the uh city of Wildwood's um gutters so want to read into the case please well certainly item two on the agenda is city of Wildwood 16860 Main Street a review of an addition to the existing gutters for Wildwood City Hall which is located within Wildwood Town Center at the southeast corner of Main Street Market Avenue Mr J I believe the vine chair of the proposed the presentation will be by Mr Lee okay thank you Mr chair uh get these up here so I wanted to give a brief history of why these are needed it's not being added willy-nilly uh as a city administrator uh a chief task of mine is to ensure the proper functioning of our building uh one of the most expensive assets we have other than our roadways and bridges um and Parks uh something we've experienced in the past about two or three years now we have extensive um leakage in water infiltration that is occurring at the front Dormer that you can see on the far left of your screen here uh when I say Dormer it's that component that's coming out of the the actual sided slanted roof um and then I can share my screen here I kind of want to walk through it with

area with visuals um one second here I do apologize all right so let me pull this up so to kind of give an understanding of what we're dealing with so this is one of the Dormers that would be uh addressed and this one would be kind of come last unfortunately I was unable to get with Google Maps behind City Hall so I'll do it from an aerial perspective so you can see on uh this aerial of Wildwood City Hall um that there are three Dormers located on the city on the building you have the back Dormer here this is facing the parking lot here's the front dmer facing U the parking garage you've got the clock tower here and then you have this very tall but you know not necessarily serving serving a use um Dormer right here and just to give context as well this Dormer and this Dormer serve two purposes uh they not only are an architectural feature that has Windows right here and then there's window windowing right here but the other two Slants that are in there are actually um air intake uh valves for our um our HVAC system there are two air handlers that heat circulate air in the second floor we have two on the base floor as well but two that do the top floor one is located in a mechanical room here one is located in a mechanical room there an issue we have been dealing with is this Dormer here what has happened is if you look at and it's hard to tell but you can kind of tell that this is a flat like when it comes off of the actual building itself um and I'm going to stop sharing my screen here and have actually I can still can you still see my screen

everyone yes okay uh perfect thank you so when you actually look at you know the um it's flat it's about 180° coming straight off the building which when it rains you have significant pooling of water that occurs it seems like it's at a slight slant but for some reason I have witnessed this myself and we've had a couple experts come out and take a look at it water pools right at these junctures um this one has not been has no water infiltration yet but it will come with time especially with sealant on that window sill uh eventually then our dry rot and then we'd have to address it there and then this is that front Dormer so what happens is when that water pulls it slowly drips down onto this component here and this is the one that is leaking our air valve uh our air handler is pulling air in at a and these are not small machines this isn't your home HVAC system this is pulling in air at a very high velocity and what happens is if you have a heavy downpour and then the the building is trying to either heat or cool it is sucking water into the actual building itself and damaging equipment and causing significant uh issues beneath our kitchen is almost deteriorated to a point where we're going to have to tear out all the drywall um and go in and almost do a complete rebuild to another point this Dormer on this side has experienced leaks in the past which ex which required extensive repair um getting in up there redoing the sealant but nothing was done to address the water pooling issue we then as a city went out to with the ad hoc building committee and U liaison council member Nan liaison here is also a member of that ad hoc group

and we went out and solicited bids uh for the repair of this leak but also to other leaks um specifically the leak that would be adjacent to this D would be handling the leak at this Dormer sorry I getting over a cold everyone and in this case we got a bid back it was from a company called leak Stoppers uh LLC and that bid uh was for copper or aluminum um right now we uh are going to be moving forward with the copper because we presented both options to the city council and they believe since the existing guttering is copper we should stick with it I also agree with that sediment just and we actually just had our uh uh the individual from leak Stoppers jump on I'll let him add in in a second um but overall the main issue at hand here is that water is infiltrating through the air intake valve um here and also coming in through what most likely is some sealant issues but this water pooling is occurring on all three Dormers so the idea here would be to install guttering at the base uh go to the next slide here um would be to stall gutting across the face of it have it have a down spout come down connect to this is the back one would then run parallel go back here would run parallel across the Terrace and then down there's an existing down spout coming down right here on top of that the same would be done for the other Dormer on the back side which is right here and it would come down and would try to follow along the Terrace that already exists and to kind of show an aerial of City Hall you can see here it would be placed

here would come down would follow the most logical Point wherever one of these spokes are to then come down and Connect into the the general drainage that we have here and then would be released into our rain Garden that we have here that is meant to retain water um we have found that that may not be the case but that being said it's better than getting directly into the building um the other component is also installing it up here since we've had some damage done there as well um the issue that we this is is a very pressing issue we have gotten unanimous uh the vote was unanimous to approve the ordinance that would move forward with the copper guttering um and the installation with leak Stoppers LLC which I have Mr Donahue Josh Donahue with us tonight um so the idea would be to move quickly to get the work done here to install it here as fast as we can so we can start addressing the internal damage and then get to cleaning our in our HVAC system which if we keep this if we do not put this guttering on there there is a high likelihood that mold and other nasty contaminants would then make its way into the building which we've gotten air quality control test done in our uh building and they're doing just fine that said with water consistently coming into the building it is it's going to happen it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when so the sooner we can act the better um that said tonight we are requesting input and also approval to move forward and specifically having uh Mr donahoo with leak Stoppers proceed with this repair first and then come back at a later date to finish the last two repairs here uh this will help future proof the leak and it's also one of the more lower cost options versus going in and tearing out the Dormer itself but if we were to find

that leaking the water infiltration was still occurring afterwards that would be something that could be considered um one item to note is that with copper guttering that was decided upon by the council they wanted that original material cuz aluminum and guttering aluminum and copper when put together actually does not mix too well it could be done but overall it's our municipal building we want it to look as nice as possible uh the reason why I bring that up is because we want to make sure that over time the entire structure looks similar um so what I will do here I'm going to pull up just so I can give everyone kind of an understanding I stop sharing my screen here I'm going to pull up kind of how copper ages and shows how that color difference occurs right now if you were to go outside of City Hall uh you would notice that it's almost like a dark brown that our Coop copper guttering has turned into um and in this case when we install it for the first couple months it will look really really weird I will just be blunt um but over time that copper guttering would end up looking just like the others and it does happen within approximately 4 to eight months you would start seeing it turn into that that dark brownish look that is currently currently uh present at City Hall um I am trying to pull this up here while I'm doing that I I will also uh turn it over to Josh Josh would you mind uh providing to the uh the board here tonight just some information about the guttering that would be installed I know it would be very similar to spec and then we would be looking to minimize its impact to the over all exterior to our Wildwood Municipal Building um I'll pass it over to you about how this process plays out and how it how you would go

about trying to minimize as much as possible putting this guttering in and affecting the overall aesthetic and Architectural design of our our Municipal Building hey good evening so the guttering that we found we have tried our best to match what you currently have existing um we feel like we've done a pretty good job of that uh to the naked eye from the ground don't think that there'd be much of a noticeable difference like Thomas was saying the copper would be a very bright copper color um like you said within six months it does start to Patina sometimes it could take longer but with the Midwest with the weather we have it usually you know uh turns that darker brown color rather quickly um with the drawings that Thomas had shown earlier uh what we're going to do our best to follow those drawings when we're actually on site installing these copper gutters you know on the I think on the renderings everything kind of showed to the the down spouts coming down the left side um if once we are on site um if we feel like the drainage would be better to put it more to the right um that could be a variance it's not necessarily a big ordeal one way or another it's just when we're on site we're actually seeing what's best that's what we're going to um eventually go with everything will be drained uh it's going to be um let me pull up the specifications here sorry I had it pulled up and my computer decided to put it away regardless the the gutters will be having 6 inch round down spouts matching what you currently have and like I said I'm sorry I'm trying to find the the mill thickness of what I had sent Thomas oh in that case we have that

um would you mind uh pulling up the presentation going to that one slide that has uh it's after the two renderings yeah thank you so uh the mill thickness is the G to be the 6 inch so it'll be 032 um or I'm sorry the 16 oun copper uh which is pretty standard and very thick it's copper grade uh the um copper grade for copper and then everything else would be slid into I think it's going to look sharp I think it'll to match what you guys are you know what you would hope to look to what you currently have existing and Josh could you just confirm so it it's it's gonna look like to the naked eye you're not obviously at first before it patinas um it's going to look look quite different but after aging it'll to the naked eye look almost identical and then over time we'll just start blending in correct absolutely absolutely yes okay like I said with being in the midwest it does accelerate a little quicker just with all the rains the the heat the cold everything but yes uh it sometimes it does take longer depending on shade Sun uh what gets more but ultimately within a year or so for sure you'll you'll definitely it'll definitely be that dark brown color that you C currently have perfect okay and in that case uh I will just add a little bit more just kind of the urgency that we have uh with this is that we've been waiting a little bit to get the drawings in so we can kind of see how this would look but overall um we are every time it rains or snows especially with the recent snowfall we have tons of water pouring into the building to the point where we're having to put trash cans

underneath the window sill um and underneath another portion of the building to uh collect the water because if not it would create another Hazard by having people potentially slip um so it is something as you know individual that's charged with M managing and maintaining the building uh for me an absolute goal to get this done as soon as possible um not only for the safety of uh you know the city's employees but also for the safety of our guests and and the individuals that come in because you know when you see the Damage Done and would be more than happy to show anybody the damage that's been caused by this um I I personally wish we didn't have to do this because it does affect the architecture just a bit um that said with the water infiltration that's taking place this should have been done when when the building was built in the first place is my personal contention but um you can't fix the past and now it's to look to the Future this has been approved and we could get started right away way uh last thing we need is an approval from the board um I do have the kind of to show that aging um if you want to stop Shar sharing for just a second there Robin I can share my screen and show just that one last little bit um this is just a rough rendering because right now actually if you look at our guttering it's over 10 years old and it does not look what 10 years old looks like um here 10 years it's supposed to be like this green almost like the uh the um Empire State Building but our current coloring looks more like this at like a threeyear or fouryear um honestly more like a black uh but it would go on like that unexposed copper color and then after four months eight months You' start seeing that darkening it would be a stark difference for just a bit and then it would come back and then blend in quite well with the current guttering that is there um so tonight the request is to for a motion to uh proceeded with the council

approved contract with leak Stoppers LLC to install guttering to the best of their ability to the spec provided tonight um and Department's available to answer any questions along with leak Stoppers and the department of planning thank you so much and we appreciate you taking the time to consider the proposal tonight thank you Tom Mr paron Mr chair just something brief uh as a person who grew up in Florida and tolerated several hurricanes over a massive period of time put tarps on on the roof there to protect it so you don't get the intrusion into the building it's a it's a it's a it's it's a it's a silly fix but it's something that we we used in Florida quite a bit until we got our roofs redone and and things like that but you prevent intrusion into the building creating more damage I I'm I'm all for having these this repair work done but we got some rain coming up and snow and everything else I mean yeah tarp is going to look silly for a while but it's going to prevent the internal damage to the building that you you you say that is uh being suffered so you have to do something to to respond to the weather conditions and what's going on and man put them up get fix I would agree with that and thank you for that feedback um Joe I would if you wouldn't mind elaborating if just on the the C code Provisions that we would technically be breaking if we put up the tarp because that's the thing that always comes back to bite us because we have to follow the same code that we would require from everyone else but it it definitely is frustrating when we're trying to when we were trying to make sure that our building stays as good as it can be well certainly I think from the perspective of the city if we needed to do it I think Tom has the authority to do it but Tom's come into this very late and I think we always had this had the impression as we hired different

contractors different Consultants that there was a solution around the corner solution never appeared and finally with the ad hoc building Committee of city council and Tom we finally reached the point where we have a solution it may not be the optimum solution because you're going to have a downspout going across the clay tile roof but in lie of removing the dhers and starting all over it's the best solution I've seen but is there is there a problem or concern with putting the tarps up until they have a chance to start that installation other than just the questions that generate and just from the standpoint of what's going on there I think Tom has the authority under our code to do it if he want it to do it okay well Joe and that if that's the case I will sign whatever I need to sign tomorrow to to get that tarp effectively put up there safely um it's a temporary it's a temporary fix absolutely it's not in if Mr Parsons was saying let's do it all let's just fix it that way there are prohibitions against that but we're just trying to stop what's coming in the building exactly I Le stalkers has a question com Le please Josh so um I definitely understand trying to protect you know protect your building continue to get the damage to not continue to worsen uh a tarp is 100% a uh something that can be done as as as what you all know a temporary U fix but the with my experience especially with an area that large um even though we're still in the very dead of winter um we could we're still in the midwest we could get some storms something crazy could happen so in my experience with putting tarps down um absolutely whether myself or another company to do it we could definitely do that uh I'm just concerned about how those uh the tarps have to be fastened

down some way somehow which then puts holes in your roofs uh you have a weird transition to where the clay tile roof comes down to your EPDM roof that flat roof over the Dormer that tarp has to be tucked underneath in order to stop all water from coming down has to be tucked underneath those clay tiles clay tiles can be very delicate so um I just like I said do what you have to do protect your building it just concerns me the the the damage that could be done to put a tarp on to potentially make things worse or you know make a bigger repair later down the road for for the for your city yes agree okay um I'm ready to make a motion to approve this as but I do have one more question so because about the tarp how when could this work be started completed like are we talking soon so that a tarp wouldn't maybe need necessary because by the time the tarp got up and you took it down and you started or yes council member Nan thank you for that question the department has requested uh availability from uh leak Stoppers and Mr Don a hug team to come out as soon as physically possible a just to address the one that one Dormer that is currently causing issues uh knock that one out and then come back but I do not have the exact specifics that was something we were going to confirm after this meeting given a favorable outcome took place M Mr Don I don't know if you have your schedule in front of you but that would be that that about the texture sure no I mean um as as you and I talked about you know we are uh very backlogged but we understand the very importance of trying to get this roof stop you know to stop leaking for you guys uh so we would make some sort of availability as soon as we get approval uh whether it be tonight or in the next couple days um we'll get the gutters ordered made and tried to be installed weather permitting we've been a terrible January uh kind of had a little bit of an ice storm

recently so we're dealing with the weather also um but to answer your question short I would try to be out there within two weeks weather pening we we would make something happen to get that like you said that Dormer completed and then we would continue to schedule for the other Dormers all right go ahead so I I would like to make a motion to move forward as presented with all these letters okay I hate to say it I got a couple of questions sorry no that's all right um what is the slope of that dormant roof could you repeat that please sorry what is the slope of the Dormer roof it is Joe do you have the exact uh detail on that it's I personally believe that it's not sloped at all I think it must have sunk or something because when you look at it from a side profile um up at Advantage it it does not look like it has the slope that's shown in the drawings but let me pull that back up and Joe let me know if you have that 12 which is an eigh of an inch of foot and that is not appropriate for an EPDM roof should be a quarter of an inch of foot so you're going to fight that battle As Long as That Remains the Same so are you saying that even if you install the gutters that's not going to be the solution it's not going to actually move towards the gutters and it won't do it officially um the subject that was mentioned earlier that I haven't heard anybody address was ponding and with an eighth of an inch of foot you're not going to get rid of that particularly if you're getting a heavy downpour the gutters are fine running

them 40 foot from one side to the other to collect it at one down spout is at least a 5 in drop at an eighth of an inch a foot if it needs to be more than that uh and it probably should be more than that um you're going to drop as much as 10 foot 10 in in that length of 40 foot so you may want to break that into two down spouts and do down spouts on either side so it reduces your run length so Mr what you're saying on a length of a 40 foot gutter it'll actually it should drop between five and 10 inches right both Tom and Josh have their hands up I don't I know who wants to go first I I don't care uh I was going to I was going to pass it off to Josh but I do know that there is a plan to have this uh side and I he he's the expert but uh has this side peel and stick uh trimming that would help guide it downward and Josh you want to kind of elaborate on that sure so um the with with the proper drainage of a gutter which to me is kind of low um is a little over 1 H SL per foot I typically like to kind of kick it a little bit more the faster the water can get to a down spout the better but then you do have the you know the the the weirdness looking of a too little cockey looking um so the the main problem that we're seeing with this Dormer is that the water is just continuing to flow over and running down the whole face of that Dormer so we are trying to prevent water uh a massive amount of water running down the clay tile roof running over the flat roof and then down the face of your the Dormer where like Thomas had said it's kind of getting sucked in to those vents there um so that being said uh in my experience one down spout is sufficient for that amount of water

coming down obviously yes we do get some extreme rains we do get some extreme you know downpours uh but I still believe that one down spout especially with a 6-inch Gutter and a 6in uh 6inch downspout should be sufficient to uh take that if you would like to get two downspouts definitely not a problem we would have to add the cost you know for the Downs spot which shouldn't be too you know too much more um but in my in my professional opinion I think one down spot should be just fine okay any other questions or comments here we have a motion but not a second yet the motion is to proceed uh to install the gutters there a second second okay Mr par is second any further discussions or comments to proceed uh we will take a vote those in favor say I I I those oppos nay the eyes have sorry nay we do have a nay um the motion is passed all right anything else that we have for this evening hope anything else thank you Tom and Josh any M um if not at least if needed the next meeting date would be March 13th and anybody else have anything else for the good of the order if not a motion to adjourn is in order motion to adjourn Mr Carson moves to adjourn second Mr R second those fav say I I those name the eyes have it we areed thank you thank you