Zoning Commission - Special Meeting

Uh okay. Okay. I have just started the recorder. Paul, if you want to call the meeting to order and I will try and All right. Okay. Uh good evening everyone. This is special meeting the old zoning. Today is Monday, November 17th. Uh we are at the old town hall conference room. Uh Eric, if you could help me um in identifying who was present.

Okay, we have to my left going around the table here. Jay Marsh, Michael Barnes, Amy Huitt, uh, Michael Foliano, um, Denise Savage Joe and Mary Joe Mary Joe Nosles. There we go. I knew I could get it all straight. We are missing Mary Gardner Capola. Um, and obviously we are missing Michael Barnes, whose term expires at midnight. Um, next Michael Miller. Michael Miller, rather Michael Miller, I'm sorry. Um, next up on the rotation and here's Mary Gardner coming in right now. That's okay. We're just getting started. Um, next up on the rotation to be seated would be um

Michael Foliano. And because his term starts at midnight, it's just sort of makes logical sense to seat him anyway. Yes. So, Michael Foliano will be seated for Michael Miller. Mr. Foliano's turn begins tomorrow. Well, yes. 12:01. 12:01. I won't be here, but then maybe somebody else will. Okay. Well,

I I apologize that I cannot be there today. I want to share what I have with the rest of you, but uh I'm uh that's a medicine and we'll take care of it. So, our agenda item and only agenda item this evening is the zoning regulations rebrand workshop and and the focus this evening is going to be on the park parking lot items tabled items whatever you want to call them that we went through when we were reviewing the regulations and Eric I'll let you talk a little bit about where we should be at this point.

Okay. Um, I have, if anybody needs copies, the tabled document we put together here that has what we're theoretically still working on. If anybody needs a copy, there you go. Thanks, sir. Okay. There you go. Let's Okay, 2123. Craig sent out an email on 1023 with a link to the document center that points to the document that has the 1023 watermark. Okay. And I had a problem with the discussion page 183 has been revised. Okay.

Well, there you go. Um any the my goal for the evening here is to try and get through everything so that we can have this as a submitted application for your December 8th meeting so that we would then be able to schedule this for public hearing in January. Um for the tabled items, it is my strong suggestion that you do one of three things. um that you either a essentially pass it on in the the form that it was presented to you by Francisco Gomes, b that you table it until phase two or c that you revise the language and we give Mr. Gomes revised language to include so that we can come back with a final version of the document. Um and again my hope is that we make fairly steady progress on this so that we're not here until 10:00 tonight. The goal here is what? 9:00. Uh Paul, is that your your deadline for for tonight?

Deadline meeting is scheduled until 9 p.m. 8:30. If we can get out of here by 8:30, Michael, I'm delighted. I you wouldn't. So, we'll find out.

Okay. Um and again I my again my my firm suggestion though it is again your guys meeting um is that we sort of if there are issues we figure out do do more basically is this something that we think we really need to table for the next time or is this something that we as as a consensus think is going forward or is there a way to make it go forward by changing some language. So with that, um, again, I have it starting at, uh, section five, use tables, um, with the boat livery. Is there anything else that someone wants to talk about before we get to that?

I just want to make sure that we're not going to get bogged down here on any particular item. We're going to go through that. And I would like for us to say, as you said, Eric, I can live with it or I can't live with it. If we can identify quickly, very quickly what the item is in there, that's the most troubling item, we should then mark it down. If we can't, if it's going to require discussion, if it might require some input from Francisco, let's just move on because we could end up bogged down at 9:00 on number two. So, I'd like to keep it moving. If it's if it's not that bad, let's keep it moving. Okay. So, I see from Jean's notes that we already sort of started talking about livery. I don't know if any

Mhm. You did. Yeah. I thought we went through some of these. I can't remember how far. Let's Let's We got This is what got us into the discussion as to whether these were really cleanup items or whether they should be deferred to actual regulation rewrite. Correct. Right. I think that's figure out. So that's how far we got on. Oh, okay. Okay. So, okay. with boat livery then what what was what was the consensus from last time on boat livery are we going to kick that to the next one or I think it was we were going to kick it to the next one yeah okay okay phase two fair enough commercial services

I think anything that's a new definition to sum this up in time should be okay okay my only problem is the next one is going to be a huge thing to lift

so if there is anything we can that is not being kicked. I would like to try and do that simply because I understand there's new definitions, but the whole idea here is right now it's totally undefined. So if we move forward and it's remains totally undefined, I'm not sure that's better. I mean, is the new definition costing someone something or is it just a clear understanding of what we all think the definition should or could be? or is there some change to the definition that would make it more palatable?

And and Eric, let me ask you this just procedurally if if to take in consideration what you're talking about, Michael. So if if we accept a def a definition, it's a new well they're all undefined. So a new definition um we're still putting it forward for um approval. I mean, this isn't this is still the commission putting this forward to there'll be time during the other commissions and other regulatory authorities reviewing it to consider them. There'll be time during a public hearing for them to consider. Yeah. I mean, the public hearing is going to open in January. I'm expecting to at least continue probably through February at this point. So,

so it's not the final say on any of these discussion will continue. And so the idea is to narrow that discussion to the most critical items so that we can make sure that we are able to you know to deliver to Paul's point being time is of the essence as it seems the way he wants to accelerate these through. It's not accelerates just keep it moving. Do do not put words in my mouth. I'm not accelerating anything.

So what what did you say that? All I'm saying, all I'm saying is that if you can identify what's wrong with this or why the language doesn't work, let's identify it. If you can't, just because for some reason you don't like it, that's where it has to be tabled and it's got to move forward. But if but if there's a specific instance in this that is the point, then what's the point? Can we solve it now or do we need more time? But I'm not saying rush through these. Make that clear. Okay.

Um Paul, the commercial services is an undefined term and that's why I think we are wanting to eliminate it because we wouldn't just throw in a word and say it's in the LI own without knowing what it is. So, so personally, if you want to ask me, we cross out commercial services period. until we find a need for it. Excellent idea. You keep going back to the broader process. Well, because I just want to be able Let's go right through. We did not hear from Francisco on any of these undefined. He did not come back with any suggestions.

No, no, no. He The point of most of these is he's given you a new definition. And the point is you you doesn't have a definition. this one. This particular one. Let's just let's just keep going. Yeah, let's cross it out. I just could I just have my question answer? So, he has not come back since our last meeting with any suggested language? No. No. Because he because we didn't give him the table. We didn't give him anything to comment. I thought I thought from our last meeting, maybe I misheard this, that you had he you thought you were going to ask him if he had any suggestions on not on this. We the last meeting we were talking about a different item and we were asking for suggestions on it. Okay.

Okay. And that was it that was not commercial services. Um that was the school for-profit schools. Yeah. And I have not heard back from him on the for-profit schools. We did have a conference call with him. He did say he needed to work on it. He didn't have anything ready. He's going to get back to us hopefully um in advance of the December 8th meeting so that we can decide before we hear from the woman coming in if we have language that's available to use for that. So So I guess on this one I agree with Jane. Let's eliminate unless he has a reason for us to keep it in. Okay. I I will mark it as deleted if he sees something that we missed. It's something only in the LI zone. So I think it can go until we find a need for it.

Okay. I I will mark it as to be deleted. Okay. Related services. That's up to you. Yeah. Also, I just felt that because to what you were talking about before, Denise in prior meetings was that whether something is a substantive change or an update and I felt that any new definition being introduced to me was a substantive change even if they're defining it because these are definitions being supplied to us, not definitions that we came up with on our own. So, well, that's why we have a consultant though. I I understand that. But just as I read the consultant for instance, we we got to make sure that just because he's hired to do this job doesn't mean he's doing everything that we need. So I guess I he's providing what he's providing is he's providing best practice and that's the best practice

and I guess the other piece we have a problem with the way it's worded as a best practice. That's a different story. Yeah. His company is providing the definitions based on his context and his research, right? But if another company was doing it, they might provide a different type of definition. Absolutely. But the point is we are thinking at least as a former lawyer I am thinking that a defined term is better than an undefined term. And so if you don't like the definition, I understand that. But then the answer is not leave it undefined. The answer is why don't you like it and what can we do to change it? And if we can figure that out tonight, great. If we can't, we'll table it to phase two. Yeah,

but I would rather not just say an any new definition is new and we don't like it. That's not that's not where we need to be tonight. I think I think we need to specifically say why we don't like it and whether we can change it. And if we can't agree, great. We'll table it. But I'd like to at least try to to move forward on some of these. So we went through all of the definitions. Are you just so I'm looking right now at section five use tables, but should I be looking at the definition instead? Well, I think it's it's in combination as Jane has indicated. I mean Berlin

because I think what I'm saying is a lot of these got pulled out when we were talking about the definitions, not what we were doing in the use table. Okay. Well, then then let's then let's while we're working.

I'm just trying to make it easier for us cuz if we just it doesn't mean anything to me if I just look back from these people. So, I'm just trying to figure out the best way for us to process. So let's go and look at marine marine related let's see um services um which is actually let's see I have marine related sales marine research facility and let's go back um marine related services is not as defined here where it was in the use table either it's marine related sales Okay. Well, that's it. Boom. Sails is a defined term.

Oh, can you remember what you had going with that? It's in the marine related sales. There's no related services. So, let's go and change that to sales. And then look at the definition which is on 197. A retail facility specializing in the sale of marine related goods including marine equipment, engines, bait, tackle and other supplies essential to boating, fishing and maritime maritime activities. Okay. Uh, it's a 1990.

Wait, which date of the draft are you looking at? We're at 10:20, I think. 1021. 1021 or It says 10:23 on it, but Okay. We're not sure if it's 103. I think the difference is there's a change on page 183 or 321. All right. It's give or take that page. And anyway, okay. Some marine related sales. We have a definition. Um, we have what zone it's allowed or zones it's allowed in. So, let's see if there's specific issues that we want to address with it.

So, right now it's it's it's a new definition, a new term. It's only allowed in the WF20, right? No, it's allowed in C10 C30 and it's by site plan in WF 20 and special permit in uh C10 C30. Do we want to have it in the LI too or is that unre unrealistic because it's Oh, I mean that gets Yeah. Well, this is that's what I'm talking about is you're just saying yes. No, what we're saying is if you want to extend the definition, then we can do that next time. Extending it right now. No, but you're talking about a use table issue. Are you okay with the definition? I'm okay with this definition.

Okay, that's different. The We had the use table discussion a while back. So, tonight we're just looking at definitions. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, we're good with the definition. Okay. Okay. Awesome. Great. Um mixed uses just allowed in the SVD at the I had okay like we got past that. Okay then let's go past that then outdoor recreational use just allowed in the C10 C30 at present. So we're looking at the definition or the use.

Well, let's see if we have a definition facilities, outdoor facilities designed and equipped for the conduct of tennis, park, handball, paddle ball, squash, swimming, skating, and similar such activities. Notably, not pickle ball. That was our question because it didn't exist. I mean it's we can add it. It says similar such activities, right? Mostly except in the residential zone. Yeah. So are we okay with that definition or do you want to table it or do you want to change it? I'm okay. Okay.

I'm okay with it. Okay. Park. Um I've again requested that he include this in the SD zone. Hopefully that has now occurred. Single family dwelling in the commercial zones which pretty much every commercial zone has a single family. Yeah. The only zone that doesn't really WF20 is and LI LI WF20 is actually not a single home is not a permitted use in the waterfront district but every other district is um yes park is now in EVVD

and again you were going to have him include your definition of family in here right that was one of the issues there that you were going to sort of cross reference family as defined because you wanted the single family dwelling to reference to that your definition of family. Does anyone else remember that? Yeah, I do. Yes, I remember that. Correct. So, are we okay then with single family dwelling in the commercial zone? Can we just open have it for every zone?

Uh, I would not allow it in every zone. And here's why. If you allow a residential use in a zone, you open up that zone for affordable housing. So, if you want the your waterfront district used for affordable housing, um that's up to you. But right now, affordable housing is ineligible in your zone. Um yeah, that's a whole larger discussion, but it's going to be forced on us anyways. But yeah, I think I think leaving it for now because those other these the bigger issues we can address right now. It's just like is it okay just as a technical fix?

Fair enough. Um tourist home a private residence that is used for temporary lodging or accommodation, typically for travelers, tourists, or other short-term guests. The tourist home provides sleeping accommodations and may include accessory services such as meals or rec recreational facilities, but is not operated as a commercial hotel or motel. So just to break this down, this is Airbnb version. Well, it really at the when it was originally drafted, there was no Airbnb. It was originally said that's the idea what we're talking about.

Yes. It's really was designed for SVD. So, but Paul, you wanted to jump in? No, I just wanted to say I think it's it's that along with like the oldfashioned bed and breakfast. Yeah. Well, bed and breakfast is sort of a separately defined item, right? And right now, I got to tell you, I'm not regulating Airbnb in any zone. So, we have Airbnbs that are not in Sound View, and I'm not trying to regulate them. So, just keep in mind that that's as a matter of just policy. Do we even need that definition? Yeah. What's the difference then between tourist home and Airbnb? Well, you don't have a different not bed and breakfast.

Bed and breakfast. That's a differently defined term. Okay. Bed and breakfast you specifically have to own and stay there, live there, while tourist home you don't. I got Okay. Um, so yeah, Airbnb is designed for people who live in the house and rent out a portion of it. So, so does this in a backhanded way say that all Airbnb and every other zone is now illegal? theoretical but it already was because it the tourist home was already a term in our regs and already um only allowed in the SVVD but was it defined in this way

um it was not defined that's the per that's my point would be that by doing this and saying it's only allowed in the SVV zone and defining it that way we are backhandedly eliminating all Airbnb in every other zone and I don't think that's what we're should we then table this till Yes. Let's table let's table table or put it in phase two. Phase two. Okay. Single going back to check the single family is that in the parking lot to look at at um it well it was in the parking lot to to see whether you wanted it in the um commercial all your commercial zones or not. Okay. So it should be there. Then everyone seemed to agree it should be there. We moved on from there.

Um I mean it should be in phase two. I think we should talk about but not okay. Um veterary hospital versus veterary clinic and the difference between those. You guys had some issues related to that. I think that was Yeah. I just wanted to make sure that we weren't cutting out anybody's business that currently services either of those industries. I don't think we are. We have veterary hospital and we have veterary both of them. The the only problem I have with the veterary clinic um is where it limits it to small animals because you have vets who

service large animals like horses and cows that go door to drug. I don't know if we have horses and cows in town but we do I'm assuming we do but they don't go to the facility the that's what that's the whole conversation we had was that they don't bring the horse to the clinic. They're the the doctor specialist is going to the farm or as big as a goat does go to the facility. Yeah. In the back of Would a goat be a small animal then? You I was just No, I'm just You were saying cows and horses. So I don't those are large animals. Yeah. But I mean, you know, so maybe just

somebody somebody could put a horse in a trailer and go to a clinic if they Well, and that also could be the hospitals uh that could be the place of business, right? Even though they make house calls, they still need to call clinics or usually things like vaccines or something where you're doing a whole clinic on one thing, you know? So, you know, so do we just not want to distinguish between the two? Is that I mean, I don't know why we have to say small. I guess with Michael I think one was over outpatient was overpatient on snowboarding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One's an outpatient, one's like I just don't think we need to say small. So, let's not say small. How about that? Anybody agree with that? We're still a rural community. Okay. Yeah, that's fine.

Delete small. Okay. Yep. That's easy enough to to do. Small. Um Okay. So accessory apartments again presently just in RU8 RU40. I think the discussion on moving into other zones probably has to wait. Yes. Yes.

Okay. Commercial vehicle parking again. I think that was you, Michael. Yeah, that was I feel um that's a pretty broad subject matter for the commercial zone and the industrial zone. I don't you guys feel the same way, but my concern is is that we regulate our commercial zone so much where commercial vehicles at commercial properties is not payable to the capital. So I don't know if anyone supported moving that to a later date. Yeah. Did we did we change anything? So that is a new definition. Okay. So we I mean honestly the only the entirety of the definition is the accessory parking of a commercial vehicle. That's the definition. Okay.

So I I'm not sure we're making much of a change here, but if you want to park it to phase two, so so what is it? I'm sorry. And before it was undefined, right? Yes. And now it's allowed as a right in RU80, RU40, R20, R15, R10, MFR80, MFR40, and MFR20. Okay. So again the definition the entire definition is um the accessory parking of a commercial vehicle of a commercial vehicle. Okay. And you had we had already changed the numbers is the intent that that's the number that was initially the size was of concern. Yeah. No that was a separate Yeah. Yeah. I saw that change.

Okay. So we're going to say that that's okay then we're going to go forward with that then. Okay. To Mary Joe's question. Were you suggesting that it was a single? Well, it says a contiguous. It was intended to be a single and not two, then it should be one. Are you supporting it because it's one? No, I am not. I am not. It just says I wanted to see if everybody else had any issue with it. I just said a

What do you think there, Eric? I mean, I I see Mary Joe's point that it's a commercial vehicle. Um, do we what you want to say of commercial vehicles plural as accessory? Um, I don't know if anybody else has any thoughts on this or this is this is every residential zone. Exactly. What do you think, guys? Unlimited and number. Well, or do you want to put a number? Do you want to see we should not have to unlimited? Okay. Do do you want to say no more than or I think that's a positive change. I would agree. Okay. So that's going to now get moved to to phase two for number of vehicles

for vehicle number. Mhm. Okay. So that moves us to accessory buildings. Okay. Which I have is page 193 on my version. Exactly.

So that wasn't a change. No, there is some change. Yeah, it's in the definition. Yeah, it wasn't. We didn't change the definition accessory buildings. But maybe maybe you were looking that we needed to do something. Yeah, there was um new building definitions being introduced that are accessory. So there was there are accessory farm buildings like private boat house or dock I don't think was in there previously. Well, let's take a look. these items.

Well, the only way to know for sure is let's let's take a look. Um, definition section. Okay. Accessory building structure. Let's compare um building a structure in addition to the principal building which is clearly subordinate to uh and customarily incidental to and located on the same lot as the principal building and which is uh in character um with the neighborhood. Yeah, I think you were questioning character maybe um uh any accessory building physically attached to principal building shall be part of the principal building. Okay. The the the term I don't think changed at all. It's the same definition. Um I know Michael Polano was concerned about character at some point. I don't know if that's good issue here, but

I don't think it's because it's specified as the character of the neighborhood. I don't think that's I mean, we could put there's something about a single lot. Now, we have concrete that are split lots where you have a house on one side of the lot, but again, that doesn't change that. That's that is the definition is the same.

You're saying, okay, so what is the change? What? That's just I'm having a hard time. This list is very It's just my brain works. I apologize everyone for letting me down, but this list I'm having a hard time understanding flipping back and forth. So, what what are we looking at and what are we trying to the definitions on 190, but you do have I open up two versions so I can have one on our newspapers and one on the desk. I got a third with you rights. Okay. So, at least at this point, no, I put the red say accessory building, not building. That's the only change I could find so far.

Yeah. And it's allowed in every zone. So, the definition hasn't changed and it's allowed in every zone. So, I'm not sure. Okay. Well, I just thought there was other uses that were asterisk meaning that it it's allow it's the principal use that you can be accessory to. That's what the asterisk mean. Okay. Yes. So, are we going to just move forward with this point or? Yep. Okay, great. Garage. Next one.

Same thing with garage. Let's see what the definition structure designed for the storage of motor vehicles, bicycles, or other personal property. It allows you to be attached to or detached from a principal building. Thank you. I think we should remove the word motor vehicle. Cuz there's other types of vehicles that don't have like a trailer. That could be personal property, personal property.

I mean, everything's pretty much covered there. It's in every zone. Yeah. But like a what? What's not personal property? No, I guess. Yeah. But why? What's what's the purpose of defining motor in a vehicle as opposed to vehicle? So, first a horse and buggy in there, right? It's it's a vehicle.

Sometimes if you name something, then you can't exclude it. So, I I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about this, folks. I I would just say move on if it's not that big a deal. I think it's fine. Okay, let's move on then to private boat house or dock. House in all zones. A structure located adjacent to a water body used for the non-commercial docking or storage of watercraft, watercraft equipment, and related accessories.

So, I guess the non-commercial part, right? So, you can have a commercial fisherman who's parking at their dock within the repairarian, right? And but they were commercial fisherman. So, I have a problem with that part. But it's a private. It's not commercial. It's No, but like you can still have private property. You can be It's a boat house. A boat house on your on your private property, right? You store your commercial fishing boat at

you park your commercial fishing boat at your It's not just building, right? It's dock, too. That's the final answer is dock. So the so the question you know the question is can you use it yourself for private use your own fishing vehicle vessel versus allowing other people to use it which would make it a commercial use of the right so the thing with dock is that like because it's for non-commercial docking not it doesn't say you can't so use it yourself.

Yeah. So, if if you're if you're bringing your commercial fishing um watercraft to your private dock just to dock it there, but you're not it's not for a commercial purpose. It's just cuz you finished work and you drove your boat home, then that would seem to be allowed. This is more if you operate your business out of your private dock. Yeah. Which I I think see the problem is zoning ends at the high tide line, the mean high water, the coastal jurisdiction line. Well, and that's why it's a structure located adjacent to a water body. Yeah, but a dock is not adjacent to a water body. Well, it has to land on the side of the property. We regulate anything above CJL, right? I understand that.

So, a portion of the dock is on our in our jurisdiction for any not all docks are attached to the Okay. And then when we don't cover, we don't cover then we don't regulate it. It's not it's getting Okay. Yeah. So we don't you don't have to worry about what you're thinking is that somebody has parked their commercial fishing vessel out in the river somewhere not in our zone. Got it. But when they're walking out of that vessel and trying to get customers to go onto that vessel from the land and they would. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's that's good. Okay. You all right with it now? Okay.

So next one. Trailer construction. uh storage office. Yeah, most of these next ones are on me. Um that didn't change. So, were you concerned about the table? Yeah, I think so. It's not defined. Yeah, this is a new definition. It's Oh, I see. Which which definition? Oh, it wasn't a new definition. It hasn't It's It's in black. It's It's in black. A lot of these They're all in black. All three definitions starting with trailer are in lock. Y trailer block. Let's

just confirm it while we're sitting here. And they're in all they're in all the residential zones. They're in multif family residential and trailer construction. It's in all buildings. Every single zone is allowed for a zoning permit somewhere. Yeah, they're already in my existing definition.

These two aren't in the SVD VD. Are you caring about that? The other two aren't trailer construction storage offices allowed in the residential zones and but the other two aren't trailer permanent storage I keep trying to make it I think it's not a name. You I think the SV and then the BD.

Well, I'm like I'm like he's going to laugh when I say this, but I just keep going NAB when I see that. So, my whole brain just explodes when I see SBD. Hilarious. The other two are only in the commercial. Sorry, the the trailer permanent storage and trailer temporary storage, but they're not in the they're not in residential zones. No, they're they're in commercial, industrial, and special zones. Yeah. Yeah. But are they in the waterfront zone? They're not as sound waterfront. Yeah. Water every place else. Yeah. They're both in W. Yep. Okay. Are we good with all those then or?

No. Are you okay? Okay. Accessory motor vehicle service and that is allowed only in LIA. And what was the definition? It says motor vehicle service conducted as an accessory used to the principal use.

Is that where a business actually repairs its um equipment side or would that have to be for profit? Well, remember it's accessory motor vehicle service. So, right. So, it's basically the use with an accessory use of the motor vehicle service not related. Well, it is the definition they just mentioned motor vehicle service is conducted as an accessory use to the principal use.

Okay. So, does anybody have any problem with that being only LA? So, it's only allowed in the L. Yep. Yeah, I think what No, you don't have a problem with it or what's the no for? I have I have no problem. Okay. I think it should be considered for the commercial zone. Okay. That's going to be a phase two issue though. Okay. So, we can put that phase. So, phase Let's put phase two and why we're putting it in phase two. you I'm adding in for commercial zone just to

Yeah, I I'm trying to add in when we're moving to commercial zone. So, we're moving it to phase two. Why we're putting it in phase two? Okay. Okay. Um Okay. So, that's commercial vehicle parking. commercial vehicle parking that is allowed in waterfront in C10, C30, LI 80, SD and SVBD. And we already talked about that above. If you look up the page here, it says phase 2 for vehicle number. Right. Right. So that that part is already going to phase two. Yeah. So I I don't because the definition also says a commercial.

Yeah. That's so we're in the same we already had this discussion tonight. I don't think we need to have it twice. Okay. Okay. So, phase two. All right. So, home occupation. Home occ. This is a really lengthy definition. Is that a new definition? Let me read new. What is red? Red is new. Red is new. Red is new. cuz there was some that were edited and I couldn't remember which ones was new and which one looked purple had some word.

Okay. The existing discussion is home occupation customary and it's a different definition than what you've got here. to 12. This is one of the ones that says, you know, which include but are not limited to. So, it kind of gives examples. You just can't. Um I think the home occupation I don't know if we should specify residential building or lot because there's commercial.

It says residential building. It says residential building or lot. Yeah. Because you have residential buildings in commercial zones. Correct. Okay. So you should you can have home occupation even in a commercial zone if it's a residential building. We don't want we don't want home occupations in commercial buildings. That's the goal there. The definition is for home occupations. Yeah. My only concern was is that it by residential building doesn't say residential zone. It says residential building. So if the building res or lot Yeah. So So lot is the land, right? So

doesn't mean it doesn't mean it's zoned that way. It could have a resident. You could have other stuff happening on a lot that with a with a primary use of that lot is residential. What I guess I'm getting at is if you have a commercial lot where it's got a primary use of commercial use, but they live there, but it's a residential lot. It's a non-conforming commercial law. Non-conforming is not what we're regulating. You can't regulate. No, but I'm saying if you have an existing business on a commercial, let's not explode your head. I think you're exploding your head. If it's nonconforming, we're not regulating it. No, I'm That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying is it's like you you can have a house Mhm. in a commercial zone. Yep.

Right. Yeah. Then it wouldn't be considered a home occupation. Oh, sure it would. It would be. Okay. That's what I'm trying to clarify here. But what you can't have is a mixed use with a with a home occupation because mixed use is only allowed in one zone right now. So if it's mixed use, it is by definition nonconforming and we're not getting into the middle of that. Okay. I have a question on this one. I mean again in some cases we've said it we're okay with just putting in a generic and other personal property and in this one we put home occupation and there's kind of a random list of what constitutes home occupation even though it then also says and others.

So why are we saying like home preserves, right? Um but like why do we have to have it be so long? Well, because that that part actually is taken from the existing rag. Home occupation includes but are not limited to the existing rag specifies preparation and sale of those products customarily produced in the home or garden and actually produced in the subject home or garden such as baking and home preserves. Preparation and sale of products of arts and crafts actually prepared on the subject premises such as sewing, painting, wood carving. cabinet making, ceramics, writing, sculpture, ornamental glass. So he actually did reduce it a lot. Yeah, this is shorter. This is shorter than it was.

Yeah. Okay. So So then I guess my question is could be even shorter. Does it do is there what is the r the legal rationale between having all of these? There's no legal rationale other than we're trying to give what we think are typical examples we'd like to see there. Um but there's no I mean all these it might be from the rig no there's no state rig on this now co occupation is entirely locally regulated I mean I think the extent of the content of this is based off if you think about all the businesses now lost road and shore road that exist right

yeah but there's also I mean I have a home occupation in my house and it's not listed here right so so there's also going to be for every one of these that's listed there's also going to be stuff happening Yes, that's not listed. Absolutely. But I still think you need the types because that's how somebody expands it to the next thing. Is it car? Yeah. Again, you can sort of look at this and say, "Oh, I'm similar enough to these that I I have a home occupation though, honestly. Do you have a home occupation permit for what you do?" Probably not. No. So, there you go. That's So, do I want to make you come in and get one now that you told me you haven't? Probably not.

But I mean, if you have an actual doctor's office or somebody who's coming to see you at your home. Yeah. Okay. That's that's generally what will try to catch you. So, okay. I'm just saying then I I don't know. I I know what you're saying. It's an incomplete list and why do we have some and not others? Right. And and also I mean just kind of like to the point of like again if we're trying to project out are there then is there to your point Jane is there danger in having such a comprehensive list but still not capturing you know emerging potential home occupations because I think that's how somebody in Eric's uh role decides whether he has to come to the commission or not.

Yeah. I mean ultimately for me when I when someone comes in I kind of look at the list and say is this similar enough to something on my list that I can say yes it's it's a home occupation I'm okay with it if it's totally different than anything on my list at that point I I come back to you and say guys we don't capture this you know in our rag sort of like I did with the okay so then then pulling that argument then are we comfortable that this is enough like then if we're going to if it has to be similar enough to the list then do we need to expand the list and so that you don't have to say well there's nothing on here that was

I don't I think he's very successful I think he is successful in remote there's 100% remote jobs are a significant part of the economy right now and places like old mine are very attractive for that so we solve that by adding remote work I don't know that's what I'm trying to say the point is Well, right now 90% of the people doing that don't come in for home occupation permits. And chances are I don't need them to. So your business does not have a home occupation permit. I really don't want it to. Yeah. Okay. The reason we have

home occupation permits is for again if you're doing something that's taking up a significant chunk of your home, no more than a quarter. But there's several things on here that no one's necessarily coming to your home for either. So that I'm not sure that that I think I think Daniel I guess that would fall under schools but forgiving why is writing on here then that is who's coming to your house for writing nobody no one no more but I guess but I mean the the where it becomes important I guess is how much of your house are we talking about ultimately the rag is designed for no more than a quarter of your house being exactly I I totally agree with that

so that that's is we have a whole separate rag for home occupation and it limits it to 25%. Yeah. So if you're worried about some emerging field that's going to take up a chunk of your house, we can talk about at least we're saying that these are accessory uses that take up more than 25%. No, we're worried about that. We're worried. I respect what you're saying, but with all the with all everything you guys keep coming back to is is not covered in here. So, you're still not convincing me why it has to have this full list. I'll drop it and move on. If everyone else is okay with it, if there's a change you want to see added to, I think now would be a perfect time to do that. If you think virtual should be listed, then I think

I was just trying to understand why this is it's a somewhat random list. Yeah. And why we have to have so many here when literally five minutes ago we had a conversation that was like perfectly fine. We're saying and other personal property. Okay. The only trying to the only caveat I'm going to give you is this. If we take out this definition and we revert back to the pre-existing definition, it's twice as long. That's not what I'm saying. I'm actually saying but I I I need to go back to Francisco with what language is going to be in the rag that we're going to propose to adopt. So if this isn't it, and I accept it's not it,

then we have to propose. Then we have to propose something. I agree. That's what I was putting out for discussion. But if this is just Mary Gardner's view, if if others are like, "No, this is fine. We can move on." So what what I like Michael has been gracious to do earlier in the evening, I'm more than happy to move past it.

I mean, I think it's fine that we edited it down just because it was very wordy. It wasn't just a longer list. It was just wordy and clunky. And I think that's a great edit to it if we want and I wouldn't say necessarily put it in phase two but it's one of the things that during phase two if we want to get back into because we know there's things happening with home occupation we can discuss it there but also if we are saying that we're he's bringing us best practices is it correct to assume that he has used this definition with other town best practices? I'm guessing so, but we'll tell you what. I think the answer I think the answer is this. Why don't we adopt this, but then just say we'll revisit it in phase two to have a further discussion about it. Then

if we go that route, I would suggest that we add a class of home occupations. there might be teaching whether it's an a music teacher that brings a student into sit parlor and we we have a separate category for is the addition that whole does the existing definition have repair of internal combustion engines within a noticed in the original a lot of times you're having deliveries and that type of thing. So, or you're shipping doing a lot of shipping or those types of things that also repair internal.

Not with not with I'm sorry to not with half of the things on this list. People who are doing baking, home preserves, if you're doing writing, you're not writing. What do you mean you're not shipping? How do you know what people are doing? It's all electronic. It's not electronic. When you have books that are going out, my sister's a writer. This is what she does. So does my husband and whatever. It's not all it's not all it's fine. We're not writing articles. When you write books, you have shipping going. I know my husband's written 30. I get it. But I'm just saying that this is it's fine. I'm I'm going to withdraw my comment.

Well, no. I I think the right answer, honestly, Mary Gardner, is let's adopt this. We can again have further discussions about it in phase two if we think we're not capturing this or we need to further revise it at that point. But let's rather than have the pre-existing definition which is longer and clunkier, let's shorten it down to this and then we'll come back and talk about it again in phase two. And why don't we ask Francisco what he's seeing from other times. What he's saying is what he's introducing. I would imagine. Well, I will go back and ask you.

That's why he's providing us best practices. I want I wanted to have a discussion and I also am going to be respectful of the majority's views on this and discussion but get ready because it is of concern to you. You're this is the kind of template that you get to have. You can sit at home in your home occupation and occupy yourself by the new the new thing because I'm having a cookie on that one. Okay. So let's let's go to the next one and okay laboratory or laundry facilities accessory to a marine facility. See remarkably so this one's in purple.

It was moved from a different part of the rig. So we just accept that. Yeah. But but also the discussion in phase two. You guys are very clear about what you're willing to talk about again. Come on. I would talk about it again. I just want to move forward now. I I will say that I I'm not so worried about moving forward as fast as everybody else is personally. Michael, we've been working on these since August. So what? They take sometimes years. Yeah. And we'll be doing it for another two. Some of these are already defined and they've been moved from one part of the document to the other. And that's what we're doing. Yeah. We're not That's not exactly what we're doing.

We're not just moving things from one place to the other. for introducing new information, new You're right. But the red ones, but the point is that we're we are when we adopt this next year, we still have two more years to go on phase two. So if there's something that really turns out to be problematic, we will not abandon the opportunity to revisit it later. We will always have the opportunity to revisit. And phase two is going to be nothing but wrapping our arms around impossible problems including I just want to add I kind of I it kind of irks me when to hear you say that we're pushing this that we're pushing it too fast. If you really really felt that way then you should have brought the definition between August and November.

Oh really? Yes. But she's feeling the same way I'm I feel that's fair. So but you but most of these I have to say you table. Absolutely. All right. Absolutely. And I'm trying my best to make sure I can engage everybody in this room as well as people. But you need to bring us something new,

right? You need to bring We're also working with a consultant who is bringing us best practices that are that are happening in towns and cities around. So unless you can come up with something that says this is better and it's better because we have to go with what Francisco says or is suggesting to us and move forward. Nothing is ever perfect. Nothing will ever be perfect. And I will say the difference between you and Mary Gardner's perspective.

Mary's working with the definition we have and asking what else we can add or subtract. You have not sub submitted any additional changes to these. You keep saying like I don't think it works. Okay, then give us some information. Yeah. So, I'm not I don't think that this table is qualified to make that determination on a lot of these definitions. That's what we were elected to do. No, I understand we were elected to do that. Doesn't mean that we are able to really do that. We are qualified. This is our job. Whether we do a good job, but we are qualified.

Yeah. when you start this evening Paul when we started this your specific comment about I don't want to put words in your mouth so maybe you can repeat it so I don't misquote you but to Mary Mary's point here she felt she was trying to discuss something you guys wanted to move on she's withdrawing that comment I'm not speaking for you but that's just my observation of this moment and she felt that she didn't have the time to talk about I I'm not did you or did you not I just

Okay and once Again, folks, I think we're getting sidetracked over procedural things as opposed to substantive things. And I think honestly my my next step is laboratory or laundry facilities, accessory general, marine facility. And I I would like to just take that up and see why it's being tabled. It's a relocated definition. It says lavatory or laundry facilities accessory to a marine facility. That's that's the whole definition. So, I'm not sure what we need to hold it for or if there's what the issue is, why it's on the table.

It is permitted in WF20, but not in C10, C30, LI80, SD, or S8. Exclusive. So, is is that the reason moving along? Okay. on that one. Letting of rooms. That's probably very old. Sounds like it. It's Tennessee.

A building where lodging and/or meals are provided to long-term, i.e. non-transient residents only for compensation utilizing one central kitchen facility and expressly excluding cooking facilities in any guest room. The letting of room shall be conducted in a residence occupied by the owner of the building as a permanent residence and all elements of the youth shall be confined to the principal building on the left. So, letting of rooms is allowed in all residential zones and C30, C10 and C30.

And honestly, I can't remember anyone ever coming to me to ask permission to let a room out in their house. No. So, I I I'm not sure why we're regulating it, but if it's allowed in everybody's zone anyway, I just happy to leave it there. What was the change for in red? We changed it. What was it called before? I don't think we had a definition for it before. It was in the reg that we regulated, but we didn't have a definition for it. Oh, okay. We didn't have the definition. We just had the letting of rooms. Okay. I was just wondering because the definition is in black saying there as if something was there, but the part is in red. So, I just wondering why. Well, in the definitions piece at least, I don't have a definition for it. And maybe

that's a good point. We noticed that before. I know. I was just wondering, you know, if it was a whole new definition or Well, I mean, I can try and see if I'm looking in the right definition. It wasn't fine. Okay. So, are we I was wondering if it was a if they if they had the definition, they called it something else like renting of rooms or something. Boarding house. That would have been the typical boarding house. Okay. So, are we okay with letting you rooms? I'm okay. Was it called? Is that what it said before? They took so they took out the word boarding house. Okay.

Which was a defined term by the way. Um, and boarding house is exactly the definition you just read. So why so do we have boarding but what I'm saying is is boarding house in the new race or is that in that no we I think we we changed boarding house into letting go of board yes that's what I'm saying there's no boarding house definition yeah exactly that's what I thought people okay yeah boarding of people boarding course is a little different. Well, yeah. Okay.

Born in the manger. Yes. Okay. Um off streetet parking.

Off street parking.

Well, let's not touch that one. We still have to look at the new new zoning things that will pass. Oh boy. Off streetet parking is an accessory to in every zone. Okay. I mean is it are we okay with it here? It was I was Yeah, it was parked. So we got to figure out are we unparking it or what are we doing with it? Yeah. Unpark it. Unpark it. Okay.

Okay. Outdoor recreational facilities. So that's allowed in T10 and T30. Is there anything? And it's allowed in with all the residential zone. Yeah, we we had that conversation earlier this evening. Okay. And let's go past it. It's just allowed in C10 and C30 at present and all the residential.

Yeah. I'm just reading what's on this piece of paper. Okay. This piece of paper is very outdoor storage of goods. Okay. Allowed in all residential zones. Not. All right. I'll uh I think the issue here was that the outside storage of goods is an accessory used to the principal use. So you can't have outdoor storage of goods as a principal use.

Right. That's what we experienced with um storage facilities. Are we okay with that term then that we keep we do not want outdoor storage of goods as a principal use? Correct. Are we are we allowing that everywhere? Yeah. As accessory to the principal use. Yeah. So like you can't have a commercial piece of land and have other products for sale more than one.

No, you can. If you have sale of goods in the building, you're allowed to have outdoor storage of goods as an accessory use to that, but you can't have the outdoor storage of goods as the principal use on that site. So you you're not going to have essentially a gravel or whatever operation where the principal thing you're doing is storing that stuff outside on the lot. I'm thinking like looks like if you have like a garden landscape center then it's the outdoor stuff is accessory to presumably here's an example how road uh the dream guy that's outside storage goods

we consider that retail sale we we regulated that as retail sale okay just want to make sure we're not that's not he wasn't store he was displaying merchandise and he explicitly said I'm not going to store anything here if it's here it's to use in the retail aspect of the business. Okay. Um, recreational vehicle or trailer parking. This I did have a problem. C10 and C30 that's allowed as accessory,

but it's not allowed. There was one of these that was I think we made that change already. Um, but it wasn't allowed in the waterfront zone. No, it's not allowed in the waterfront zone on my street. Every res. So, it's not it's not WF20. No, right. I think so. So, we need to change that.

Well, well, well, except read the definition. The definition is the parking of a vehicle or trailer used for vacation, travel, camping, or similar recreational uses. So, this is not commercial trailer parking. This is RV parking. Are you thinking a boat trailer is a similar recreation? It says, if I'm not mistaken, it was something specific to the trailers. Because I was like, why can't like I'm not allow I'm not permitted per these regulations to park a trailer on and a RV. You can't have more than one starter. So, you can't have a camper and a trailer if I'm not mistaken.

No, I don't think that's the case. There's a differentiation between a trailer as something that you put something else on versus a trailer that is the is the unit like a camper trailer which is towed versus a recreation vehicle which is self powered. Is that Yeah. So, Yeah, I would imagine. But but I see where you're going. It's not something you put something else on. Correct. Yeah. So, just we need to expand that definition to cl or clarify the definition.

Okay. Do we have language we might want to contemplate here? I'm happy to add whatever language people think. I guess. Yeah. I guess the idea was like this is, you know, to point to a boat trailer versus pulling a camper trailer, right? And recreational vehicle would be that it's a vehicle that that, you know, like a camper van. Well, but it talks about recreational vehicle or trailer park. So, you can have the trailer piece of it as long as it's used for vacation, travel, camping, or similar recreational uses. So I don't think it's prohibited from having the recreational trailer there. It's part of the definition. Yeah. So where is it limited?

No, I don't think it's prohibited, but it's not clearly differentiated from every use of the trailer. Just something to put something else on and take it somewhere else. Correct. Yeah.

So how do we fix that? Well, I'm just looking at the other definitions where we mentioned trailer like for trailer temporary storage. We have vehicle container object excluding buildings used for storage of goods or materials which is designed to be moved on its own wheels, flatbed or other trailer and which trailer is located on the same lot in more than x number of days. So, it's on its wheels flatbed. Would that be helpful? Well, I mean, in that particular case, the it's more the box as opposed to what the box is being carried on. While here, the trailer is the actual the gear that you're putting it on. So, it's a it's a different idea of what a trailer is. Um, we maybe that in that case needs to be storage unit or whatever you want to call it there. Um because we're sort of using the term trailer to mean different things in different places.

Listen to that. We're not like making up something that doesn't exist already. So I'm sure there's a best practice out there for we don't have to come up with it on our own. Okay. Let's let me ask him to investigate that one. Something like a recreational either self. Okay. Let me ask you to investigate that further. Yeah. Great. Okay. And and also I think the talk about parking like permanent parking versus temporary parking because I think that's where you get into trouble on that definition.

But if it's you're saying we need to put permanent or something. I don't know. I'm think I'm thinking cuz I mean if it's if you have an own an RV, you should be able to park it next to your house 365 days a year. Yeah, I agree. That's what I'm concerned about is my interpretation when I read it was that you couldn't park your camper and your boat at your house at the same time because there was language in here that basically said so. Um, no more than one. Well, I mean, in practice, Michael, I've never if you got a a trailer and your boat in the yard, I I don't know any CEO who would try and regulate that. Say only what it just say.

A Oh, I say a. So, we're going to ask person. Yeah. I just say investigate next. Yeah, I would investigate and and maybe maybe getting into that is you know personal use versus commercial use or just look at how you should do that. Okay, I I will go back to him in the morning and talk to you about I also know people don't you know people are very concerned about people you know using trailers as permanent housing. Yeah, honestly that's already prohibited. It's prohibited in your current regulations even three separate locations. It is literally the only thing that has prohibited three separate kinds in your regulation.

Not corn, but that. Yeah. So, I guess my main concern to your point was just that there's all kinds of business pe what I'm concerned about with zoning changes is that we have this real character with a lot of people to work from home with their businesses and I don't want to regulate them out of Yeah. of business. But that's where I think that this parking it's like that, you know, it's like I think we need to think about I mean, you know, I'm looking at it more that it's personal use ve you know, vehicles and trailers, not recreational cuz it should be recreational, not something you're doing for business.

No, but the same definition is in C10 and C30. Yeah. Well, they have residential uses in those operational vehicle is a class of vehicle. It's not just Mr. Gomes. Please help. Yeah, I've got it listed as to investigate. So, let's just move to the next issue here. I'm not sure we're going to solve the problem tonight. It needs further investigation. Okay. Yeah, that one's So, we're back to section 25 now with definitions. Commercial vehicle. So, where I don't see that in the definition.

Well, you have two different kinds of definitions. You have section 25 definitions and some section 26 definitions. So, it says commercial park vehicle parking the accessory parking of a commercial vehicle. My my section 25 says any motor vehicle with a commercial license plates or with lettering markings, racks or other apparent accessories indicating it is intended for use other than personal indoor recreational transportation. Right. Commercial parking piece.

That makes sense to me as it's written. Yeah. Well, let's wait for you to catch up and see where we are. I had the word or underlined as if somebody was having problem with the oring.

Yeah, this is that we had the weight issue which we took care of. You're in a different place. You're not in the right place. commercial. Yeah. No, I'm just in my head. My my thought process might be Oh, okay. I He might be saying I'm in the right page. My thoughts are on the wrong page cuz you're talking about commercial vehicle parking and that's a different issue. We've already covered the We're under definitions now. We're under definitions now. What you were worrying about that not everybody gets a commercial plate. Yes. And then we combine I underlined or because it's there's vehicles without commercial plates would be the the other two ores or with lettering marking uh well I think

or other it was the that that vehicles actually do get commercial plates like a car is a commercial plate and a truck right so if you have a work truck and a work car you can't have them both at the lot at the same time because it's more than one is that that's on the parking issue. We're just talking about the actual how do you define a commercial vehicle. So essentially saying commercial okay I see it now. Okay. So are we checking that one is going forward here is that as far as definition this guy said he needed us to do it. So now we're saying okay detached structure.

What's a party wall? That means two people living on side of one wall. It's like a townhouse, you know. Okay. It says common wall then comma party wall. Party wall. That's what it's that's what so they're basically the same thing. Okay. I thought maybe it was like someone's having a party on one side and not inviting the other side. You just want to get invited. Is that parties? You got it. Okay. Are we good with that? Does that have any issues with it? No. drainage cuz that was a new turner. No, that was

all the purples were just moving. Purple's removed. Yep. And the only I think the um I had was it says the controlled removal because you know there's natural drainage basins and whatever. So, I guess I was just looking and we could let this go for now, but I just wanted to I just had that I was just looking at the idea of this natural drainage too and make sure we're not

So, would you want to add in that because right now it's covered again by inclusive language or other means which includes runoff. It doesn't say, you know, limited to thresholds. So theoretically it's included. I'm just wondering if we should it's like I can see that rather than drainage. I'm just wondering if the term should be storm water control because drainage is drainage. I like but I'm comfortable leaving it with we can take but why don't you ask them about that? Yeah. I think the way this is written assumes that all other methods including the catchable or other means all of which include controls. Yeah.

Okay. So yeah, you know what I'm saying? But when you controls aren't an or they're they're included in every instance of so in the bigger picture things we talk about drainage basins. So I'm so of course I'm going there. when they say drainage, I'm just looking at whole drainage basin. And here it seems like it's more talking about storm water control. So just see if maybe that if that's something we should I I have it marked out ask there is whether it's storm water management or storm water control. So you want to include you would want to include drainage methods that do not include controls.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm thinking this is I think he wants us to get to like you got to manage the storm water. Well, yeah. Where that word appeared in the regulations. That's what that's that's what I wanted to check is like can we inter you know are we talking about drainage or are we talking about storm water management? That's what that's what you got to ask Mr. Go the way this this is where it is all controlled. Yes. Exactly. I have it flagged to ask new milk. You know, the Connecticut River drain just one, you know, we're not regulating that. We're not regulating that. Well, everybody,

well, we have smaller brooks like that on people's property. So, that's why I don't want to necessarily say drainage is I'd rather say storm water control is. So, that's why I was wondering how we use the term drainage in the rags and whether this is the right definition. Oh, yeah. I have it flagged. I will ask him about it. We'll see what he said. The next one should be evergreen. evergreen lean tree, but evergreen and and we were wondering why it was 20 ft if you recall differentiated from a bush evergreen bush is not defined. So is it because of the word evergreen or is it because of the word terms that are undefining commercial vehicle detach structure and drainage evergreen tree it's defined evergreen is trees defined the point is we say

it's a weird but it's a weird definition evergreen is a tree that stays green all year long that's so is it tree this the 20 ft or is it what was the I think the 20 ft seem to be the problem because you know you get ary that may not grow to be 20 ft but are still evergreen. I think my thing was more that it should not say coniferous. It should say if you want a evergreen tree, you should say a non-deciduous because are conifer trees that lose their needles. So, so there are conifer trees that lose.

My expectation is the place where these this word shows up is in buffers and other things that they're asking for trees. So they don't want a a a tree that's 2 feet tall as the buffer. But I guess that would be I don't know. Could you could you ask him again what the context of that is? I was going to look that up. So why we would need 20 ft or more again? I suspect you're right. It's for buffering purposes. Yeah, that that's way of saying look don't give us a little twig and say it's going to do it. I think the idea is we're trying to get something that you know has its leaves year round. So that's why because we just discuss on

you can't say nonidigu you know because then it's like okay fit in you know the marians right I mean you don't want an evergreen tree that's only this tall for the marians right because then you still see the house or the evergreen tree okay family Yeah. Now, this family is the same family definition as was in the original RIG, right? Yes, it should be. We told him to, I think, keep that definition. Yeah. Yeah. I think because yours was already modified or like a better version.

We already had a fairly broad definition. I think we were happy. One of the broadest in the area. Yeah. That's So, are we keeping this? Is there any Yeah. Okay. I thought I thought you'd park that one, but not. Well, And it's I can't site anything specific, but I think we just want to check it with with state federal rights there just to make sure we're okay. Yeah, I think it says the I mean the number six you were saying why the number six in there been there forever. That's why we're redoing them.

Okay. Well, let's I will ask him about that number. Well, and also as Michael said, is there like is there a more upto-date definition of Well, would you like it to be higher or lower? Well, I would like to understand why it's the number six, just like you want to understand why it's 20 ft for No, I Well, I think I understand why it's six because it's six unrelated people. You can have a thousand related people, but but unrelated that was for the beach areas. Okay, let me see if there's a more you

so we're saying the seven people who are not related by blood, marriage or adoption together as a single house. Mhm. So what was that? What was the Now mind you things like group homes whatever else. Yeah. Except those are separate. Those are fair housing act. I can't that's I can't do much about that. Right. But this is only for again nonfair housing act situations. So single family residents will be the place where that appears or multifamily. So if you if you want fewer than six, you're getting more to the traditional definition of a single family.

No, I don't why why do we put a number on it? Well, because then it helps allows him to regulate 20. But that wouldn't be because of family. That would Yeah, it's unrelated. If they're unrelated and there's no If you have a single family house Yeah. and you have 20 unrelated people living there. Yeah. Theoretically, I can say, "I'm sorry, this isn't a single family use anymore. It's not a family. You're not a family if you're 20 people." Yeah. Unless they can demonstrate they're allowing a single family. So that let's say a group of singles, you know, is there any federal young adults? I don't think there is. No, I think this came from from trying to regulate beach.

Completely understand that. So I think they just picked six. Well, it's a typical threebedroom and you have two people like, you know, sharing a, you know, a room or something like that. So I think it was just it was picking a number to give the regulator an opportunity to be able to do something cuz if you don't have a number and six doesn't cut against most normal arrangements, but if you said, you know, less than that, do you find Yeah. So, so I think it'd be good to check it. I think what I would say too though is check it family home.

But it may be something that because of some of the discussions and different types of families that we really look at it in phase two in terms of changing it. That's where we were when we was going to look at phase two. Yeah. But I but you know look okay let me go back and ask about it. Okay. Yeah. And six may be rational and historical, but it still could be accused of being arbitrary. But how could you pick another number? This is going to be the the question. I don't know. But I'm sure again that discussion has we're not going to be the first town in the country that had that. Well, but this is a very unique definition. I can tell you cuz most towns don't allow any people, you know, of the the unrelated.

Then then that should come out pretty clearly. Yeah. But we we would want it to be unrelated. And so the question would be, do you want it to be a bigger number or does that start cutting into I want to be able to defend the number in public? I can. I want to be able to I can because it's somewhere in between. Fair enough. The Goldilocks are ground cover. Not to try and force the issue here, folks. Yeah. So So the ground cover um is really controversial. Yeah. The problem with the ground cover is it's listing a whole lot of invasive space. Well, do you want it to specifically indicate?

Yeah. So, I would I would say I would leave out like not necessarily limit such materials. I would just like let's not define them. It's like cuz you're putting in things that I wouldn't recommend that we use anymore. Probably need to have a list so he can say it looks kind of like that's what I say. I guess I would I mean let's just be consistent then. Well, I I really think there's some things that may a list make sense and some may not. I I think we have to be open to this. It has objective stuff that plant materials generally not in excess of two feet in height and used for decorative purposes or further sold soil st in this particular case. I would agree with Denise that maybe we don't mention invasives.

Well, do do we more than that though we want to specifically say native species? It depends on how it's used. I would say noninvasive. You don't have to say native. How about how about if we just eliminate the second I would say I would just that second sentence is like oh please don't because you're going to have well even then ground cover can be referred to other things besides plant materials

okay we're agreeing on actually then no but Michael brings up a good point then we need to revisit the beginning of the first sentence and not limit it to just Well, usually ground cover in the sense that I think would appear in the in the record would would be something that is growing. It's not not mulch. Yeah, mulch is different. That's what would be what would you consider stone? Not ground cover. Not ground cover. Ground cover is I consider mulch a ground cover. Ground cover is a a farming terminology and it would never refer to stone or mulch.

It's a kind of a plant that covers the ground. I think see I read that differently because like how are we using it that we have to we would only refer to farming things and not anything else. No, but we also would you know you also would refer to lawn possibly. Was that that's ground covered? That's a plant. That's a plant. That's why I'm saying I see some ground cover like in the area of erosion probably. Huh? You think in the the probably the regulatory for those of you that have the the regs open on your thing, you want to just figure out where we're actually using ground cover. That's what I'm trying to do

for soil. Yeah, it's to put the roots down in it. So a 20 lb boulder might be grown co but not mold. Your house is grown co. Yeah, my house is grown. Nothing you can wash away easily. Maybe we don't even need to define it. It's the ground cover in landscaping landscaping. Ground cover is eternal art in the landscaping process. Yeah. Yeah, there's numerous types of of materials for ground cover.

Okay. Also though in our rags well I guess that's ground cover. I never forget. Sorry. I apologize. It's a term of art plants. Low low plants density. Yeah. Not sparse. Yeah. They and then and sometimes they call them ground cover plants. So you could add that. But ground cover is refers to plants. If you Google ground cover, it will Well, I guess the question is, are we using the term at all in our current grid? Yes. So, I'm looking at it at 13.2.8 required appearing vegetation. What Jane was saying, not those ones. Okay.

There shall be no clearcut openings in a well distributed stand of trees or other vegetation including existing ground cover. shall be maintained. Existing vegetation less than three feet, so it's a different number than in our definition, in height and other ground cover shall not be removed except to provide for a foot path or other permitted uses. That's one place it shows up. And there it clearly is referring to vegetation. Yeah, I don't know. But to your point, it said less than 3 ft. Yeah. So a definition from the University of Georgia is ground covers are spraying low growing plants used in landscapes to cover an area of ground. Perfect. So then we also use it again. So it's in the gateway

in the gateway. So I think just keeping I don't I I just think keeping it pretty general but I would get rid of the examples. But what about this 2T 3T that's discreet? Should we say not in excess of 3 ft since that's what the rig says? It says generally not in excess of two feet. Well, I think but again, why would we say 3T in one place and 2 feet in another? Yeah, it's like growing plant. So, let's Should we make it 3 ft in both places? I would keep them the same. I agree. I

Okay, three. No, there we go. the parking area. This is one that I parked.

Yeah. I I guess nothing I can think of is the elimination of motor vehicles. Not vehicles, but motor. How's it used? An area of cover an area covered with a surface to be used with storage, passage or conveyance of motor vehicles or pedestrians including but not limited to streets, parking lots, driveways, loading areas, sidewalks or impervious surface drainage swelles. My definition is different than that parking area. That's paved area. I'm sorry. Parking. I'm sorry. Parking. I'm sorry. Let's try again. I'm sorry. I get

any public any public or private land area designated for and used for parking motor vehicles, including parking lots, garages, private driveways, and legally designated areas of public streets. You just think we should take out the word motor. I personally do because there's other vehicles that are non- motor and it referred to as vehicles. a trailer as a vehicle. But would that be a park? You still aren't parked. Yeah. Well, that's that's the thing.

You you might find yourself paving and and doing other things to the area where your other vehicles were going to be located that would not be what we'd want for those things, but would want them for cars. So he might end up making the parking area because because what you want to park doesn't really need the same kind of preparation as a motor vehicle spot. But we're not talking about paved areas. We're just talking parked parking. Parking area areas of public street parking areas. So do you want us to require parking areas for

No. Okay. I get that. I think I think you'd be regulating something you didn't mean to regulate by adding that. So, let's let's keep that as it is. Move to shade tree. This is probably another one that I was like 35 ft. Evergreen feed. What's a shade tree? A deciduous tree with an expected mature height of 35 ft. Yeah, I guess it was the same thing. Why does it have to be deciduous? So ask so ask Mr. Gomes why is he putting footages in for both evergreen tree and shade tree.

Well I think the idea of shade tree is that you want something that's going to be going high and out because that's what's going to give you the shade. Yeah, I have a tree an evergreen tree in my yard that does that. Okay. So I'm just saying so why do we have to say deciduous? Fair enough. Do you want me to remove deciduous? Is that Yeah, I think it should just be a tree. Yeah. I mean, shade trees are pretty much defined as deciduous. Depends on how it's being used in the rags. Is are we ever talking about wanting shade from the tree in our regs, as far as you know, Eric? Yes. I mean, certainly the goal of shade trees is you're trying to thermally keep something cool. That's why you have them.

And particularly in wetlands context and other context, you want your streams or whatever else to have the shade tree. Yeah, but also do we use that though? Very disappointing. Do we use that in our regs? Do we actually I don't know. I don't think so. And they're actually in the rag. I'm I just did a search 72113. It actually says decision shade tree. Yeah. So that's for access circulation streets and parking because it's like a canopy versus Yeah. Yeah. So and maybe we should leave it at that. Deciduous trade. It's almost like you don't have to define shade tree. You know what I'm saying?

And this doesn't really define shade tree because it's just talking about a tree that has leaves that's going to be 35 ft. But it doesn't actually say whether it's going to shade a thing in the reg. Should we just delete the definition? Is that what the whole Yeah, I think it's getting I don't think we have to go that too nitpicky. Okay. It is it's getting too crazy. Out shade tree out. I mean when when they define it as a deciduous shade tree I think we could figure it out. Okay. So but the reason for having defining not defining shade tree but defining ground cover if ground cover is a accepted landscaping term

just I just just again I'm just trying to be consistent. What is it? Well, because I think well because I think in the reg because deciduous I mean deciduous we don't have we don't have to make up the um a uh definition of deciduous. Deciduous is a science term. So we don't have to do that. I thought we just read the definition of what ground cover is though for landscape. So we have shade we're going to take shade tree but we're keeping evergreen tree and we're going to keep ground cover. Yeah. But ground cover you could look up and it has multiple definitions where deciduous based tree it doesn't say anywhere in the definition that this tree has to provide shade right

it's only in the first word that's what sold me because like that's what said that's all it said the rings just say like deciduous and we define evergreen tree I don't know in one place and one place only and that's in one section of the planned residential conservation area and it's deciduous shade trees are going to be planted at 60 foot intervals in the sun. Yeah. So there's it's it's almost self-defining within that's what I'm that's what I'm saying the grapes self-defined it. So I don't think we need to hit where other times it's not necessarily and it's not it's not used anywhere else for so again for consistency we're defining we're not going to define shade tree I understand why

we're defining evergreen but not deciduous because evergreen is different than I see what you're saying. Okay. I know they're different. Basically, she's saying, "Why don't we just put the sesame treated?" Mr. Gong is going to look it up for us to see why if we need it. Yeah. And why is it? So then, but then that's then the follow on. If he says you do need it, then say, "Do we need to define any other trees?" Yeah. Just so I don't think so. It's only the one used there. Yeah. I mean to your point, do we need to do ground cover? I mean, it's one of those things like I can see like

definition an application though you want to say you want this is where you're not going to remove ground covers. I think it should be defined although because if you're in an application and you want to be you know it's a landscape plan or whatever like that and let's say we want to see maple and oak trees specific to the development that's how we're referencing right what kind of planting to put in which which right exactly so that's what I'm saying so then like let's put all the words we use if we use if we use all the words that it should say the situation to start with and then just define them in context in in one sentence in a whole set of regulations. So pull it out and find it.

I moved on from shade tree. I'm talking evergreen versus deciduous. Well, but I think evergreen is used. See, evergreen is kind of a more colloquial term where you know you talk about conifers that then don't leave use that le you know that are either you know keep their leaves all year round or question to gomez is then do we need it do we need to define all different kinds of trees and if not do we need to even define one kind of tree

I'm just scanning for evergreen too and it's used in landscape caping and it's one evergreen tree not less than 6 ft in height. So it's evergreen used very specifically usually as a property tree height of six feet no shrubs so it's yeah shrubs less than 6 ft so it's so I'm in favor shrub is two down from a second

so I think but I think they're all it's worth discussing like let's maybe landscaping terms I'm I agree that we we it's good that we talk about landscaping a lot. So then I think we should have some consistency and some rigor in the landscaping terms that we define and how they're used in the regulations to reinforce our positions when we're having these conversations with applicants. So in in the case in these cases we're talking about as I'm looking in the regulations, they're used in context and specifically. which goes against you need to define them.

Yeah. Cuz if it says that you have to use a shrub as of 6 ft, why do we have to then say something when you put it in or is it going to be more to the point expected mature height greater than 20 ft. So I think that's part of the reason why some of these here to get the height and to get the size out of the these um instead of the little plant that this big Jane then that brings up then a topic writ large for phase two is we want to look more carefully about how we discuss landscaping issues and we do actually that usually on every plan it'll say the size of the tree but I mean I'm putting it in the rest. Yes. Yeah.

So, the big question would be, do we change these now? Cuz there's no definition. So, these are new definitions, right? Um, they're all in purple. So, do we leave them all in? Mhm. Which would be evergreen, shade, shrub, ground cover. Do we leave them in or do we just do them in phase two? Figure out how how they should be in because it's it is kind of weird that they're going to check the definitions are consistent with the usage and in the wreck. Yeah. that. What do we think? I'm I'm okay with Mr. Gomes checking out Mall and giving us a little bit of a dissertation as to Yeah. We really need to go there. What What would be the best thing to do?

Well, and I think especially in the context of that's a topic that is important. Yeah. When we're talking about the I hate to ask this, but I'm going to ask it. Well, they did plants plantings for some site plans. The pass owning, by the way, um the plans would say something like a 7 foot tree, yeah,

was going to go in there. We didn't talk about the mature height. We recognized that whatever tree it was, uh cannivorous, red, whatever, that it was going to go in at 7 feet and it may grow up to 12, 15 feet. We never I never looked at what the mature height was going to be. Will we be opening up that can of worms if we have such a specific definition?

I guess as I've been hearing the discussion tonight, you've been trying to take out height limitations more generally. So I think that probably is safer. Um, but then again, it's going to come down to a thorough examination of whatever the landscaping plan is. Um, and I think that that sort of factors into your whole special permit review process that you go through. Um, that you just need to be aware that your landscaping plan is going to have a sheet with all the various species on it and we're going to need to basically go through those species and say yes, no, different species, whatever. Um, and that may be something I sent down to consulting because I got to tell you, I'm not an arborist. I'm not going to be the person who's going to say, "No,

you know, you're landscape engineers." There areap, so it may be something that at some point I need to go out and get assistance in reviewing a landscaping plan. Um, so that's just something you guys need to keep in mind for future applications. However, this shape, the water conservation district can help you with that. Absolutely. I mean, it's not like it can't be done. There are plenty of people out there who can certainly consult with me about landscaping, but just keep in mind that the more you want to talk about landscaping, the more it's going to involve having expert assistance in reviewing the landscape.

So, Eric, I hear what you're saying. I think my my point is it's not the more that we're going to want to talk about landscaping. We're already talking about it. So, let's make sure we have the reference tools in place to support those conversations that are already happening. I don't think this is going to cause us to all of a sudden be doing it more frequently than we already are. I understand. It's not causal. No, I I I I agree. And I just I want to make sure that the terms we're using are terms that are going to be useful when we go talk to the landscape experts. chef. So that that's I think that's really that the point being is

using terms that will dovetail with the people in the industry as and so that we're going to get what the result we want to get. Yes. Right. And there's just a consistency part because if you're if it's in the rag in detail and in context then you don't necessarily need to define purposes. And one of the things you might be able to do and we can just do take a look at this. It might be that um the Connecticut Egg Experiment Station if they have definitions we could maybe just say like you know refer to Connecticut Egg Experiment Station's definitions of what all that stuff is and we don't have to go there.

Okay. Again Paul you were going to say something. I was going to say that if you look at all of the things that that we've been talking about, the evergreen, the ground cover, the shade tree, shrub coming up, we should probably bounce off of Francisco. When when we're looking at an application that comes in, we ask for a landscaping plan.

What are what are the elements of that landscaping plan? Is it deciduous? Is it evergreen? Is it, you know, is it a shrub? I mean, is that what maybe that's what we should be including in here rather than trying to decide what or what types and heights and things of that nature that we should be including. Maybe we should get it.

Well, and again, if you look at your existing regs 13A 317 talks about um landscaping shall be provided and permanently maintained and confirming the standards. Um, in addition to the standards for landscaping here specified, landscaping shall be provided and permanently maintained with an intent to reduce excessive heat, glare, and dust and provide privacy from noise and visual intrusion to control erosion of soil and excessive runoff of storm water to enable recharge of groundwater and avoid degradation of groundwater wetlands and water courses. So you already have that piece in your regs now. So

do we really need to start breaking out an evergreen shrub ground cover? That's what I ask for. I think that was one of the reasons I pulled them all out. Just a question. So whatever we decide. So I think we should just ask Mr. Gomes what he thinks. Let's that's that's what let's get further input and see where we want to go with it. Okay. Right. Um, shoreline flood and erosion control structures. I think this needs to go to phase two because I think blood and erosion we need to have

significant discussions about is that definition? I would second that just because I have the black definition. But is it something we can live with now cuz it's in black? No. Can we put in phase two? What? But this is I'm insisting that Yeah, I know. So, you're saying take it out? No. No. I I'm Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying like my my point is that I'm not suggesting we put this forward. So, I'm sorry. I thought when the decision was made, if we're going to completely rewrite a definition, then that's a phase two exercise.

So, I'm suggesting that this needs to be completely rewritten. So, I don't think we should sit here and consider that a technical phase activity shoreline flood. That means that this existing one will stay until phase two, which is I think Mary Grace is Mary Garden rather is saying is fine. She's okay with that. Yeah. It has to because I that's my point. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean I think it has to because there's no point making small changes if it the whole thing to and it's obvious it's a vital it's vital to have something there because we need that for all of our flood and road control all applications.

Yeah. But is there a way to like identify it so when it does go in front of the public, we have identified this as something that we would like to address in further detail in phase two. So the public's not like why are you just leaving them as it? You understand what I'm saying? I mean we can certainly that's true about the whole the whole everything. Yeah. So maybe that's maybe but maybe that's part of our communications plan, right? Because we're saying like as we're putting this forward, these are the issues that you know we're open to other ideas, but these are the other issues that the commission has already identified are going to require further review.

Or we could say this is a definition that we are specifically asking the flood and erosion commission to take a look at feedback for things. Yeah. Something like that. So that that I guess then is probably more of a communications piece. Okay. And these also these these regulations or whatever we're coming up with to uh use these examples, they also have to be run through uh attorney Lewis. They also have to be run through our engineers. They have to be run through professional firms that

and in particular this one because of the recent change in the statute is going to have to go to DEP because flood and erosion control structures right now have just sort of recently been given sort of this upgrade that every one of them is going to need to come to you for a CAM application. Yep. So whatever we come up with on this has D is going to need to sign sign off on. Yeah. So there's no point in sitting around tonight trying to come up with something. Yeah. And also, you know, we kind of think of shoreline as being coastal, but it includes navigable waters. Yeah. We have a lot of water. So it's not it's it's inland waters as well. So actually that's a good point. Shoreline shoreline doesn't shorine

is not sufficient. Shoreline doesn't coastal. matur the the term shoreline and erosion control structures I think is what the state uses for its coastal area management. So I'm not sure we're going to be able to change that the name of it. It says from title closable absolutely saying but if if the issue is we don't like the term shoreline flood erosion control structure I don't think we can change the term I think the term is given to us regardless the whole thing is going to get revisited so we don't have to figure it out tonight. Okay. Yeah. So that brings us to shrub folks or we just going to skip over shrub as part of the whole skip it over.

Yeah. And I'm going to see if there's a if we have landscape definition terms at the state so that we don't have to I like that refer to so that makes us transient and there was an issue we use transient in two different ways. Michael was telling us right you were the one who said we use transient in different ways. You don't remember this. Mhm. Um I might have said cuz transient's also a reference to like voter that comes or goes. Well, no, but why don't you look in our regs as to how we use the term transient? Because I recall you saying we use transient in two very different ways. Like an unhoused person.

Well, that's one way, but that's because that's the definition we have here is a person who is not a permanent resident of town, but is visiting for personal or business reasons. house person. No, but that's also not the only way we use transient, right? So, give me give Michael a second here. I know we use transient in an entirely different way. Let me go back to the current. So, one of them is for parking and storage. Yes.

Recreational vehicle is it? So that's the whole like the recreational vehicle in the subject law be it transient or permanent. That's the whole thing of not allowing someone to live in a recreational vehicle. But that's referring to transient not as a person. Transient as a and this one and this really says it's talking about person. Yeah. Exactly. That that was where we got held up on this that basically transient was an adjective and transient was a noun. Yeah. Because it's also in bed and breakfast. Yeah. So why don't we why don't we have them look at that and clear that up. This definition is just a carry from the it's an existing definition but again but we

we use it in different ways again a noun versus adjective and we need to sort of look at both of those terms and see whether we need to define them differently. Right now we're doing that or no Mr. Gome. Okay. No, I will ask Francisco Gomes to take a look at that we're using that term in different ways and is do we need to break out the definition to explain that we're using it in different ways? Yeah, transunism should be being temporary. That that's adjective versus noun. So that gets back to so that gets back to what do you name the definition? So maybe a transient person or a

well or change change the word where we're using it as fleeting into impermanent or something contemporary well or getting may need to literally just say transient now transient adjective if we're going to use that same term different two different ways sort of define it in each but I think you're right the way the easy way to do it is define it as an adjective and then put if you when you want to talk about a person you would say aut person okay That's I meant that's the simple. Yep. I think you're probably right. So that brings us to water dependent use.

Sorry. You got it. And that one those ones might be defined by DP that word water dependent use. cuz I see up in uh the coastal area management thing context probably. Yeah, it's probably management act. Yeah,

I was thinking that for some reason marine use protections there's something to do with the marine related something here. Bear with me. So marine research facility is not a water dependent use. So that's okay. Yeah, I'm with the definition. Okay. Let's move to section 26. Accessory motor vehicle services. We already looked at this tonight, I think. Yeah. Wasn't that the thing that was only in the LI zone? Yes. Uh, yes.

Okay. So, let's skip over that. Boarding of horses. page 210 something to do with the number if I'm not mistaken. I have it as one. Yeah. Okay. Um, and there's no numbers listed in there.

Of horses owned and used by the occupants of a dwelling. Such use shall not include the renting of stalls or boarding of horses or horses for compensation. It's funny that the definition is called boarding of horses. I know. I heard that too. I like there might be a little bit of a circular aspect to this. Yeah. really shall not include horses. Boarding of horses cannot be then not. So you can board your own own horses but not somebody else horses. So it must be of horses. So it's in seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But where are like high hopes? That's a

so that they would be cons concern considered commercial li commercial livery boarding stables riding stables. That's different than our other uses with. So this is basically for private use. This is for private. Yeah. Yeah. So and unlike most towns, you can have a horse on a tenth of an acre here. We don't care. Yeah. Which So boarding it's or boarding of horses, not or boarding or horses. So it's just a typo in there, too. Boarding of horses. Yeah. Okay.

Which is interesting because by the occupants of the dwelling because it's when you look at the use table, it's in districts that do not have residential uses. Okay. But there may be pre-existing whatever I understand. So, but we is that a substantive change? Is that a substantive change we want to make now? But yeah, I think it's worth a lot better. Yeah. So if I have a house with that is in the residential zone, it's got my own horses in it. It's not

that's fine. But what he's saying is in for instance the waterfront district where you can't have a residential use. You can still have a horse. So you put the horse on the boat. The funny thing is about every single waterfront lot has a res. Okay. Okay. So, why are they looking at this? Not the commercials almost have residential uses in that. Right. It's in it's in LI and WF20 that don't have residential as an allowed use. That's what he's saying.

So, where are the occupants? What do the occupants occupy? But what I'm saying there, aren't there some commercial zones that have res 20 do not have a residential component in them, but you can still permitted resial component. They all have residential and the definition refers to occupants. Yeah. Which I'm going to go on to say that. So, but again, that would mean that if you have a non-conforming use, you can still have a horse there. Yeah, that's exactly what that means. By right. By right. by right. Yeah. Right. So I I I'm Let's skip over for now. I don't think it's worth spending a lot of time on tonight, but maybe that's a phase two future.

Inconsistency. Okay. Um boat livery. Yeah. The only change I just or question I have or concern is the very last sentence. This definition excludes marina operations that provide long-term docking, maintenance, or fueling services. All are by saying long-term docking. That's all I'm concerned about. Like is that is the long-term definition necessary? Is it non-transient? What's that? No, just as in short term. No. Well, what would you have it just say provide talking? You say taking out a long?

Yeah. Just just not defining long versus short because you get people who come in for a couple days at a time. Um people come in point of wood, they're in the boat. So wait, this is to this is somebody who just rents watercraft but doesn't do anything else. That's what I'm trying to understand. Rented out for short-term use. The commercial establishment or boats, kayaks, canoes, or other watercrafts are rented out to the public for short-term use. Facilities for storage like because like this is like the boats on uh Oh, I that's why it says longterm because short-term is allowed and then longterm. Long by defining this marina the long term would have to be done in the marina.

Yeah, that's the So by by saying that that means in theory that the short term is not at the marina. No, no, no. That's that's not what it's saying. It's just saying long-term isn't allowed here. So black hole can't do long-term storage, even though they do. Well, that's okay. Well, that's that's what that's what I'm saying. Like first they branch and to a certain sense, why not? I I agree. Okay. So, remove long term. Is that Yeah. Well, wait a minute. Though you then you get marinas everywhere without regulation at all. What do you mean? No, that's not what we're saying. If they can be long-term as well. Well, how you're not going to have a marine anywhere else but the WF20? This is boat livery. I understand.

Where is boat livery allowed? Isn't the criminal to this the commercial establishment where rented It excludes marina operations that provide the So I'm looking at like if someone like a a company since for I'll just use black as an example they do it they rent space in the industrial park or kayaks that they sell. Okay. But the boat

storage because that's a separate use on a separate location. Well, the boat livery is exclusive to the WF20, right? The boat livery is in WF20, C10, C30, C305. It's just not in the LA. It's not in the LA. And that I think I parked it because I wanted to see it in the LA. Well, that's a phase 2 issue that I mean, is it does it? Well, there's a retail component. So, to to to Michael's point, does it have to get into should it just say this definition excludes marina operations? Period. Yeah.

Cuz it's like marinas have a their whole other definition. So we're just saying that somebody can rent a kayak. They don't have to be a marina. They could just be renting kayaks or whatever. So we just wanted to delete the rest of the marina has a you know marinas can do other things. We don't have to talk about why we don't have to say that they provide long-term documentations because it has its own definition. That's what I was going to ask. There is a marine. So this so we can just say this exclude marine op. Okay. So let's just put us period after marine operations. So I think you're right on that one. There's not a operation.

That was the other reason I think I parsed it because it's this definition excludes marine operations. To me that would imply that there is a definition. So maybe we just need to say marine facility. Well cuz the definition of marine facility seems like that's what we're talking about. Okay. submarine facility. Is that what we're now going to call it? So, no, not changing the name.

I think this is Mr. Gomes's way of saying that boat livery locations cannot fuel the boats and they can't maintain the boats and they can't provide long-term docking. That's what I think he's saying. That that's some a no no in the boat livery definition. Well, then the other way to So then the other way to do it would be to just say that but not talk about marina facilities. Yeah. Yeah. So just delete the last sentence entirely. No, no, no. Definition excludes long-term docking maintenance or fueling services. So don't even mention marina operations.

So how does how does that for instance impact Blackall out there? Well, Black Hole is going to claim non-conforming to but some future Black Hole that wants to come into town. That little area down across from the Bristol Graves yard. Oh, I wasn't even thinking that. Yeah, that's where it is. Yeah, but what about down by um um No, on 156 almost the old line marine. No. Any pilgrims? That's it. In your road. That's what I was thinking. I might the word exclusive. That guy down there does rent kayaks for people to go up and down the water a little bit.

Yeah. So, there's a like we just This problem came up the other day cuz we're talking about this. There was five different companies that came into town and were delivering boats, not from town, but they were basically setting up kayaks for people to come in, pay, and use the public from there. Separate companies. No, no, not him at all. Just just random companies that came in and started selling packages to unsuspecting people for kayak and paddle board tours. Um it was like a really big deal.

Yeah, it would be a big deal. So, so I'm look, you know, the way when I just keep looking at it, I'm thinking that you would just say the definition excludes long-term docking and fueling and or fueling services. I would not say maintenance. Yeah. Because service is Could you fix this by putting the word exclusively before rented commercial establishment where boats kayaks can use or otherwise cuz I rent boats and kayaks and canoes on a short-term basis. So I just

So but not as a boat livery, right? I don't know. That's what I'm I don't know if I'm consider delivery if I do do that. No, I think the goal here, Michael, is that marina is supposed to be a broader term and that's why he's saying that they exclusively renting. They don't do the other marine, you know. So, they don't provide dockets for for So then you would add exclusively in front of rented and get rid of the last sentence. I'm just I'm asking I'm just trying to

the other example I was thinking of is like there right currently right now I guess it's not but there is a facility in in our LI that maintenances vessels so if we Well this isn't this isn't about marinas this No yes I understand so but okay I still like I still like just crossing out the word marina and just saying the definition excludes operations that provide long-term docking, maintenance, or fueling services. So that's that's that's so you're not trying to go look for the other definition. You're just looking for what you can't do.

Yeah. And then I the question I had about maintenance is it does say that they allow repair services. So Okay. So I was I was thinking just take say long-term docking and fueling. So you're still able to do the repair services in the sentence before it kind of you can do repair services. So cross out Marina and cross out maintenance in the last sentence that I think we have.

So but so then what we're saying is we're comfortable with that idea that for instance Black is going to claim their non-conforming rights but a future business won't be able to do what they do. No, I think we think the black hole is doing what this this Rick says it's doing. But they're doing the long the long-term storage. They got boats and longterm docking. Okay. They do year round because it does say docking. Yeah. They don't they don't exclusively rent, right? No, but it says a boat liver may include facilities for the storage. Docking.

For the storage. So that's storage is longterm. I mean, when you're storing something, you It doesn't say you're storing it for overnight. it it's short-term rental use, but they it says that they can do storage. So that's so they're okay. Long-term docking is somebody coming in with a boat and and now docking for a lot long term. That's not storage. That's someone coming in and saying, "I'm going to do for two weeks." But you do store on land. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. But it allows for storage. We're just saying they can't come in and do long-term docking. Docking is not storage.

Well, if it's going to be that big of an issue for Black Hole, I'm sure they will. They'll let us know. I don't see why they have to wait because that they don't do longterm dock. They don't have boats coming. Oh, yeah. Slips. Yeah. Oh, they have slips. Yeah. And then you have people who park on you have people who store kayaks. And but you don't list them as a marina. Yeah. I don't know what we list them as. They've been there. I bet you had any money. They're they operate as a Well, see that's the thing. Like most of the marinas were already existing prior to existing all kind, right? So, yeah. So, it doesn't really matter

for them. But I was thinking of future. I I only thing I want to see is in the I guess I I have no problem with you know I think we should take out the marina and the maintenance but I think the L work and it's a matter of if they're coming in it's not like we would allow a business come in they would just come in as a marina that's allowing for long where somebody could do a small business as a boat livery and then they come in they're doing a bigger business they come in as a marina you can do talking. So the idea do they do fueling? Do they do fueling? Uh they don't fuel pumps are another regulated would you like?

That one does not. Okay. So black doesn't but the four mile river marina does. We're coming up to 8:40 folks. We need to if we're going to wrap up tonight. We're going to need to move. You want to just put a pin in it for now? No. I think we have 20 minutes. I think we have a sense that we're going. My understanding is that we wanted to read this definition excludes and delete the word marina operations that provide long-term docking. Delete the word maintenance or fueling services. Right? And go with that. Okay.

Okay. So, that bring brings us to building materials yard. All the products are and this is in I'm sorry I'm just so lost now that the purple is just a movement or it's a replacement. Purple is movement. Yeah. Or redefining of something we already had. Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes it's So what's the current definition of a in your old Gregs? What's the definition?

We don't have a specific definition for that. So I'm trying to see what we we do define. There it is. It's only an ally. Yeah. Have to be an LI.

Is there cuz it's a principal use a retail establishment. I'm fine with it. You're fine with it. Well, then let's keep going. Okay. Does this look like a fish? That kind of question. So, retail use in LA.

If it's that particular kind of use, then theoretically, yeah, because we don't want that use anywhere else. But if people need to buy it, then that's the only place we're going to let them buy it. business refresh is this want to expand for um so I I guess um the are we we're out of business or professional I mean both business of professional office and business service establishment. I mean, I understand the uh concept of both. I just um wonder if we want to consider um whether or not the this is forwardlooking enough when we look at the trends of you know what new um businesses are are coming out. So, I mean, especially I mean, dropping on a business service establishment, we're talking about a telephone answering service and secretarial service. Nothing wrong with those two things, but I would offer that in 2025. That's not really going to be relevant. And so, if the point is to have things that are relevant that Eric can compare to whether it's like, you know, something similar, then we should find some more current examples. And then are there things that are coming out and about? And again just I mean

you know thinking of some of the technology um enterprises that are coming out are there any that we wouldn't want yes to be coming in and I'm not even talking about you know data storage facilities but well I mean the one that comes to mind is basically you know the the whole customer service you know phone operation there where you've you know 30 people there answering phones 24 hours a day. Um not in India but where it usually is these days but do we want that sort of operation in online like a from you flowers

but those are I mean those are even on the way out though those are being replaced with AI and I mean that that's a whole issue right now is that those call centers in the Philippines and such are about to potentially go out of business because they're not going to be needed any longer. Understand? So, so this is where you know, so yes, I think it might require some time looking at it up, but and I'm just putting this out for the group. Do we think it's worthwhile to if we're going to be updating this, remove things like telephone answering service and secretarial services with something that is actually more relevant to not even 2025, but 2030 2035. Yeah, I agree that we should.

But is that going to be sort of a phase two then discussion then? said we'll take more research than we probably can do between now and December 8th or January, whatever it is, or do we want to try to include that in phase one? I I would love to start with asking Francisco how other towns have addressed it. Okay, just start and I there's something specific on the list here which is a data center as an excluded if if Yeah. whether that's in or out. Oh, it should be out. Well, right. But that that's I mean that's the future, but it could be it could be construed as a professional service right now. Yeah.

Can you ask Mr. Gomes to is and it said which is notation. We have no place for data center definition for home occupation since this definition is saying it's not a home occupation. So, oh, by having it as a business, you think I could have a data center as a home occupation? Professional offices. All right. I think I agree that Mr. Gomes could work on this and see if he could give us some more contemporary. Let me see what we can do. And is business or personal is that in the use t uh it's in the use table, right? It's in the use table. Both those are in the use table. Mhm.

And business service establishment is in the use tail. Yes. So I think commercial vehicle parking. Did we deal with that already? I think we did, but does anybody have any more to say about it? It may be if we're going to add something like data centers in because then we have to decide what we want to do and we have to think about excluding them or not excluding them. that really because if if we so I think researching it but if he comes up with a list of okay these are contemporary services then we have to decide if we want these in our town or not right exactly so that and that that's really gets into a bit that's that could be a phase two but you don't want to define it

but it at least gives us an understanding of whether that's the road we're going down but I would want not want to have some of those in a definition without us deciding what we want to do 100%. Okay. Um, commercial nursery, commercial propagation of flowers, plants, nursery stock, or berries. New definition or berries. You forgot the vegetables.

We don't like vegetables in no time. Well, that has to take place on a farm, I'm sure. What's that? Vegetables can't go on a nursery. They have to go to a farm. Very, very important. Don't think that they can decidle their way into a greenhouse. Well, we're down for like 10 minutes, folks. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing I mean, it's fine for now. We can Let's say I'll I'll look for a better definition. Okay. This brings us to dairy and bottling works, which I know was a big issue. Last time we talked about it,

I don't have that page. Dairy and bottling works. Not a whole back special. got these. I just got an email for minutes. That's why I said that

can you do next month's minute for a second? For a second. Give me just a couple more minutes. I want to for a second. I thought you just said our minutes for today. She's ready to end the meeting. I think probably I asked the question. Yes. Um the it's the word commercial. Okay. Um because most of these kind of things happen on a farm and that there is kind of a problem statewide where you know farms are doing what farms do and um in order to stay in business they decide what sometimes to do their own um bottling and creation of the products. Okay. And when you say they can't because it's now a commercial use, they are not allowed to do it.

Yeah. Where they are. Intervent. Do you want to just delete the word commercial? Well, as long as dairy and bottling works are allowed in in what zones are they allowed in? It's only LI. Yeah. Let's So is there is there a distinction between dairy and bottling works on the commercial side or dairy and bottling that they use in their farm stands because it says processing which would a lot of farms do processing

packaging and bottling. They do that milk cream, yogurt, other dairy based products for distribution and sale pasteurization. Is that more of a commercial basis? Well, but these are what farms actually do. Yeah, that's a commercial farms have a commercial aspect to them. They do, right? But yes, they are commercial by nature, but they're not considered to be something that you can only have in the LI80. Yeah. Um they're they're all over the place in residential zones and all that, right? I buy like organic milk from a farm. It might um Brook. So is this a new definition or an old one?

It's a new definition, but we previously had this use in the LIA that that part hasn't changed really. But he's defining it now. So he's defining it. So therefore, it's going to So maybe there's some way, Jay, of putting in something that talks about farm you know on farm you know ex you know exempting on farm or something like that. The definition of farm is any tract of land for which the principle uses dairying or raising of agricultural products etc etc excluding but excluding commercial kennel commercial catering commercial propagation growing flowers plants areas

when combined with on-site sales of general public commercial green houses commercial delivery tables commercial veteran house cattle feed lots and rendering so does not exclude no do we want to handle this then say exempt as accessory to an established farming operation. Yeah, that's I would say establish. Well, I guess would you say establish if it's still is not current like if there's a new farm that comes out? Well, yeah, but we we I said establish in the sense that you have to establish a farm use. Okay. So, yeah. So, how were you going to say at the end something like that or if that's the way to handle it? Farm is

so you say all those things. Um but not accessory to an existing farm operation. Yeah. Establish farming farming. Hey Michael, watch out. Okay. But so at the end you're going but not um well but we're exempting um as accessory to an existing form and use. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that that takes care of the fact that you it's you're not covering that in in what you're you're limiting this to. So Okay. Yep. So the notion of this is something where the product raw product gets delivered to

Yeah. It's not important you have that you have a commercial plant versus doing Yeah. This is basically as a primary use. The primary use is bottling of milk as opposed to accessory to the farming operation. Yeah. Okay. family child care homes. Is there not a standard definition for this? Um, there probably is. Is that true? And I think that's statutes. Oh, it's got sick. It's got the number six in there again. I mean, they're regulated by the Connecticut Office of Early Childhood. Yeah, I think this is a state definition, but I'll double check with Francisco.

Oh, this is Oh, because I thought usually when we have state definitions, we have that's referenced the state definition. Well, let me check given the numbers it's using. I'm pretty sure these are the numbers that the state uses. That's what the it is what the state uses. So I'm just you know again for consistency up elsewhere we've reference statute reference the statute. Yeah it is 198378. Okay. So let's let's just include the statute statutory reference.

Okay. Um farmstein last one. I think so. Do we have a definition of a um oh god you know like the one that's up here on on the post road where it's not just a farm stand it's a you know they've got other stuff going on there. Yeah, we we have if you look in sort of the agricultural if you look at what like glor does we have a se that's covered but you get to have a farm stand only for things grown on site 211

yeah but I was trying to look at the farm stand versus I think we haven't I guess that's the point I'm guess I'm comfortable with this as long as we have a definition of I think I think that oh I guess far a farm market or something like that. Yeah. I think that that the temporary was important because we've had several of these being located along the road. Mhm. Especially during the summer. Mhm. And so they But I don't know how you um regulate temporary there. Do you want to regulate temporary though? Is that what you're saying?

Well, I don't know cuz I think the one there was one that was set up. It's not there anymore at Heon Farms for for a short bit. Um, but the one just down the road next to Dan and Bill is just permanently there, but they've closed up shop because there wasn't anything there that was grown anywhere around here. Seasonal first time. Seasonal might be. No, cuz you might have a farm who has a greenhouse who's growing year round. Yeah. Temporary. What's that? That's not temporary. You would know that. No, the farm isn't temporary, but the farm stand. This is the roadside stand. That's what I'm talking about though. So you could be growing that wouldn't be considered temporary.

I love the I like the word seasonal rather than temporary cuz then it's like, you know, hey, if you got someone who's doing eggs, you know, cuz sometimes, you know, have and I have to say it's seasonal. There's not as much egg there's not much egg production in the winter time as there is in the summer when they have excess eggs. So could they do Christmas trees then? Yep. That's That's why I'm saying it's like, you know, I think season I think seasonal is a good word. I agree with seasonal. Anybody else? No, that seasonal. I agree. Seasonal. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But is are we regulating what seasons? No, just seasonal. Whatever they

Okay. So, it's okay if they have four seasons, it's be out there all four season. Yeah. As long as it's on farm and it's because the idea Let me just get the straight. I mean, we we don't mind them. No. No. I don't. Right. So that I just want like so we want to find a way that like that's what I'm trying to get. I want to make sure temporary doesn't allow. Yeah. Yeah. And it's more of those things like that temporary thing or more or seasonal where they just at the side of the road versus a farmers market like the one that's on road. So this is to distinguish something that needs parking and needs proper, you know, on and off and all that from the the the thing that'll just be pop up,

right? If you if you're going to stay there year round, you need to be like the hydranger guy. You got to do a regular sight site and show everything. Yeah. See, well, I guess they kind of cover it though with produce grown on premises. Mhm. So, do we need any of the temporary or the seasonal if it's specific to the that's grown on premise? Well, it's still it's whether when somebody wants to have one and they want to put it next to the road, is it going to now be a problem because we haven't ever reviewed it? It's not doesn't have any place for anybody to pull off or terrible sightelines or whatever. Okay. I think that was the reason why it was temporary. It gives us the ability to have it taken down if it's causing problems.

Yeah. And it only be just like Sunday. So temporary day of Sunday. So are you arguing that we should leave it as temporary for that? No, I like seasonal all as much. I I I think that the consensus is seasonal is a better word there. So, let's wrap this up. It's now 9:00. So, any other business that we can do because there's nothing else on the agenda. So, no. Any motion to adjurnn? Okay. Seconded. Second. All right. Got it. We are so good. Okay. Paul, I'm going to hang up on you here.

All right. Thank you everyone. Feel better. Feel better. Feel better.

Okay. Two more meetings for this year. What's that? Two more meetings for 2025. Well, when I get down to like single digits here. Yeah. Are we adding a a workshop for next month? I am under the impression that we've we're good

that we're good and I was going to basically talk to Gomes come back to you in the next couple days with whatever he says. Um but my again up to you folks my hope was to get whatever revisions there are in by an application for Jan for December. If you still think that you want to come back and discuss further the things you said ask them about. I I guess I just was trying to understand how are we getting the the communication of of everything that's been done. That's all. Okay. Here's what I what the hoping I don't want to discuss anything new further. It's more just like

absolutely agree. What I will be doing is once I send this out to Francisco go I will get back any additional text or changes that he suggests based on our conversations tonight. I will send that revised version out to everybody and probably at that point ask, "Do you think this is ready for an application?" And if you guys can get back to me with yes, you think it's ready for an application or no, I'd like to discuss this further, we will then go forward and either set another special meeting or start start with an application in December.

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm to I think that's a good thing. I think it would be great even if we have a few more things we want to talk about to start getting public input. So I think the application right starting to have public hearing on it or if we want to send it to the other commission first getting feedback however whatever the process. Well that's that's kind of what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a wrap session to revisit any I'm talking about a planning session just talk about what specifically the next steps are going to be and getting that written down and so we can publish it and inform people. But if we can do that all by email, well, I mean, a lot of the next steps are at this point going to be statutory,

okay? Because we have statutory referrals that have to go out. I can send it out to any number of other boards of commissions as well, but statutoily it's got to go about eight different places at this point. Um, so yeah, that's great. You know, if Eric, when you send it out, then send us the the schedule. Okay. All the next steps. I will happily I see it and we're all like, "Okay, that all makes perfect sense." And then we can also talk about what we want to of communicating that out.

And again, if there are more boards and commissions that you want this version of the sent to for input, by all means, get back to me and I will make sure they get a copy as well. So, if you send us a list of what all the next steps are, including who who's going to get it and when and what have you, then we can decide whether we need to meet in person to talk about the next step or whether we can do it by email. Okay? Or or we can if it's short enough, we can do it at a regular meeting. I'm laughing because all of our regular meetings are so packed. No, not Well, there's no I know there's nothing