Historic Preservation Board - Regular Meeting

And this is the Historic Preservation Board, and we're ready to begin the meeting. And Jeb, can we do roll call? Roll call?

Yeah, no, just say roll call.

Yeah, we just asked to confirm who's present and who's on the phone.

All right, pictures of what I do.

Here.

On the phone. Paula Correa. Here. Michelle Headley.

Here.

Daniel Serrano.

Present.

And Jeffrey .

He's traveling, yeah. OK, great. So we will go on to the minutes, to approve the minutes. Do you have a motion to approve the minutes?

I second.

Oh, the last time was October 16th. Yeah. It's been a while. It's been a while. Okay.

We also... All in favor?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Great. And also want to welcome... Mayor Burch is with us today.

Do we have a public comment on your... we do it's it's down here but we can come we can do that now right yes yes we can do public comments okay so then i'll get out of your hair you are are not aware of the fact that the council is getting Why some committees feel the way they do and others feel differently, I can't fathom. So I have no ax to grind there, whatever you all think. But at least this is the right time to read it. If you're happy with it, if you're not happy with it, then how would you change it?

How is the process?

Well, you all need to read. Did you all receive? enough copies for each of you great and what you're going to see is that ordinance is the law that basically originates the committee says what the responsibilities are how often do you meet whatever, we want to change this building or we want to, right now I'm sure you're carrying discussions on with the country club and the golf course, both of which have in the past been called historic. What your position is on that topic, I don't know. But anyway, that's what the ordinance, it allows the formation of the committee and it talks about the responsibility going to present something that the historic board wants done and that's how it gets done and I didn't get that introduction myself and somehow that got missed but I'll get copies to Patricia I didn't bring any tonight and then that'll give you a place to start from

Yeah, that would be great. Great.

Thank you very much.

Yes.

I feel like, Patricia, we saw it a long time ago. I think it's short, but it'll be great to refresh our memories. And a couple times we have made recommendations to add.

It's online. It's online. Anyhow, it would be great to have a printed copy. But those codes of ordinances are always public records online on a specific directory, yes.

And we did make a recommendation, which I think the council approved, too, about the markers. Remember, there was something that wasn't specifically in there. Yeah.

Okay.

Great.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. One question, Michelle. The meeting is not being transmitted online? It's not live streamed? it says it's active currently oh um jeb says that it says it's active maybe try refreshing or or quitting and restarting sometimes if it's in the queue okay let me do it let me do it let me see i want to see you all yes now i see you all great okay great great goodbye goodbye mayor

It's a little delayed, the video, I guess.

Oh, so that's delayed. It's okay, but at least I see you all.

Okay, great. So to add on that topic, the historic preservation chapter, I believe it's chapter 11, and it is in Unicode, and if everyone would like, I can share the link. That would be great, yeah. So you can easily access it.

That would be perfect, yeah. So the mayor doesn't have to print it, that seems, yeah.

But he was mentioning something that I thought it was more to my, like, because he was saying that there's some that are very long, some very short.

Right. Ours, I believe, is... What he was saying is that there's differences within each committee, and some committees have much longer standards and regulations than others.

Okay.

I went through the HPB and it's not. It's not, no.

It's, I think, a couple pages. I mean, yeah, so it would be great to refresh our memory. And, you know, that's basically our mission statement, right? That's why we meet and what we try to accomplish. Yes.

Fantastic.

Great. All right, so we can move on to 4A, Certificate of Appropriateness.

um i have a brief uh introductory paint so um for a stpl 24-98 it's a certificate of appropriateness the owner is nary henry the address is 21 northwest 101 street and the request is to remove the existing wood shake tile and replace with a metal roof The applicant is here. They're requesting a certificate of appropriateness from the board. The property was originally built in 1944 and obtained its Miami Shores Village local historical designation in 1995. The applicant proposes a standing seam metal panel roofing system pursuant to the attached Kynar 500 finishes product specifications. They've indicated six different potential swashes for the board's consideration. Charcoal gray, dough gray, slate gray, Slate Blue, Pacific Blue, and Medium Bronze. So upon the board's consideration, staff feels that these are adequate, and upon your recommendation of which one you'd like to go with, we would recommend approval. And the applicant is also here if you would have any questions or any comments.

Okay, would you like to say anything? UNDERSTANDABLE. YEAH, WE WEREN'T ABLE TO MEET BECAUSE OF STAFF CHANGES SINCE OCTOBER. BUT, YEAH, I APOLOGIZE ABOUT THAT DELAY.

SO I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE REASON WHY WE ARE PROPOSED A METAL STANDING ROOF INSTEAD OF THE original um wood tile roof that the house has currently for me yeah that's a question well i'm not sure for the applicant for the applicant it's very difficult to find someone to put wood shaker roof

He's a crook. He already took $2,000 repairing it. That's how he got into this problem. So if it's between asphalt and metal, I've seen older houses than all of ours with metal roofs with A-frame wood frames. And to me.

Okay, definitely. I do appreciate a lot that you take a like in historic homes. It's your second home. That says a lot. I think that it is aesthetically is much better than having asphalt or something like that. However, the basis of an historic home is to preserve it as close as possible. The roof is a very important part of the home. And it's unfortunate the situation that you said that you had already tried to fix it and this person, this company is not like being, but I did a little bit of a research on different companies and it seems that there's quite a few Copper River Shake is one. Walden Forest Products is another one. They all have NOAs because I understand it definitely has to be something that is going to be, not only that it will go with the historic part of it, but it also will be, it will qualify for the situation that we have with the hurricanes and everything. And they are NOA approved products. Did you guys advise? The owner on that?

No, the owner made the decision to move forward with this product.

All right. So just for my clarification, and sorry, I'm new to the board, so I am trying to learn a couple things. So when there is somebody that is requesting, there's not like a pre-meeting with you guys, like how it happens with planning and zoning?

Typically there is, but I believe when this request came in, it was... I wasn't part of the meeting, so I'm not really sure how. What were the items that were discussed? Because it's been in, I think, four months more

and nobody told you that there are actually noa products that have also the wood the wood roof uh wait did you meet did you meet with alice alice did you meet with alice set before that person that was here before or no never met with her it's never been advised for me to meet with her friends have taken this long got it um as a homeowner i want the middle roof i think it's

homes with it. I think wood shaker puts me in a really bad position. And it put me in a bad position to even try to save it. And since these four months, it's been raining inside my home. I had to put a tarp. The house that I'm trying to preserve has a stain on the floor now. It's been challenging. I get what you're saying, but as a homeowner, I also think that middle roofs are as old as anything.

Yeah, yeah. Some of them are old. It's just that it's not only about how old the middle roof is. It's about the whole architecture of the house and the preservation of that. So that's why I'm asking all these questions because it's important to understand what's the whole thing and how it has been transpiring. Okay, so those were my questions. So basically when there is an owner requesting something on a historic home, there's not really like a process where they should meet maybe with staff first so that they get the recommendations. They don't have to sit here and wait like for four months or like get some information. That would be something good for us to start so that you guys don't have to be in this type of situation.

Well, I think one of the things that took place here is that we weren't able to have meetings, fortunately, in November and in December. And I believe that's what kind of delayed the process here slightly.

We just weren't able to have the meetings. It's just that it will be good to, regardless of these meetings, like how we do it for planning and zoning, there's always a process and there's a meeting every month, somebody from staff, from the village, meets with the owners, they show what they want to do, they get recommendations. If they need to ask somebody from Planning and Zoning, they'll ask and create a plan.

That's our goal. That's our goal.

If I may speak, Madam Vice Chair, please. Yes, Patricia. Okay, first of all, I wanted to apologize with Nery. Nery, I'm out of town, so that's why I couldn't attend in person tonight. But I spoke with her several times. times via text. And, you know, we had a lot of delays because we didn't have in November or December meetings. That's out of our control. And I tried to explain her that. And I think I suggested you to bring some samples. I just checked the messages, and indeed, that was my suggestion. And I also... a role that having a metal roof might lose the historical character because it's too modern but anyhow we could like appreciate that better with a physical sample that every homeowner that wants to make some changes they just bring that up you know just bring in front of the table and and we can have a better look of how the house will will be with that material did you bring some materials no i did not bring that all with me

There's like some... Yeah, but they're from print colors. Yeah, I definitely sympathize in terms of the timing and appreciate that you obviously really value historic preservation and historic homes. I personally love love metal roofs but you know one of the objectives of the board is to try to maintain the character the the main characters of the historic homes and really just the facade you know you can do anything inside your home you know that's really the priority and the roof is a big part of that For instance, if it was a Mediterranean revival home and they wanted to replace the clay roof, that would be a big issue that would be drastically changing the characteristic of that home. So, you know, that said, I understand and I have heard actually John has a similar roof and it's really very difficult and very expensive to try to get that replaced. That's a big challenge, and so I'm trying to find the balance between keeping the historic character of the home with responsibly modernizing. I'm not sure where that balance is, but it's a fine line. Do you have any comments, Danny?

Yeah, I too agree. It's a fine line to balance preserving the historical nature of the home, but also modernizing it so that you can continue to live in the home without weather damage. I'm personally leaning towards you know recommending to approve of a metal roof and for me kind of these swatches um suffice and can recommend a medium bronze uh as an option to kind of match the the current wood tiles that's kind of where my thought is that that the uh there needs to be a solution given the the timing of it all and you know we sympathize we're homeowners as well

I have a question. How many homes do we have in the Shores that have the wood shaker? Do we know or have any idea? Maybe the expert here.

I can just tell you. Here is an old... How many here in the... Her other house was a wood-framed house. I replaced asphalt to shale.

And do you know if it's about this question about are there many houses with I would say no, right? That's like I mean it's Yeah cottage style 1944 yeah

It's definitely not clay. No. No, I think it probably was.

I would presume it's asphalt, but I could be wrong. Originally asphalt. I don't know any other woodshake. There may be, but.

There aren't any that exist, yeah.

Yeah, the reason why I was asking how many is because We are a predicament here. I understand you've been with a lot of time waiting for these, but at the same time, let's say there were hundreds of these homes here, many, and then we approve one, we set a precedent, and it may, it's a slippery slope. So that was my concern. That was the reason for the question.

I think it's interesting that there really aren't any, and I think part of that is most likely because it's not a sustainable long-term. Wood obviously requires a lot of maintenance.

Maybe a happy solution, middle of the road, is could you request maybe we give a couple of colors from the metal and could you request them from the factory that you will be changing the roof and we can take a look at them and make a decision on you know, try to do a little bit of more research. This is the first time that this, you know, at least for me, I see this. Maybe we can do a little bit of research and give you two or three or one alternative for the color so that, you know, you can also expedite your process. Oh, no, there are samples. Yeah, I do that all the time.

Do you want a chip or do you want the panel?

The panel will be better because the chips sometimes are different. It's like when you select the wood, you know, it's better to see the bigger sample. Yes.

That's a great idea, I think. I mean, we have, you know, when replacing the barrel tile roofs, it's not the old-fashioned type they used to do by hand, and they will bring samples. Yeah. And what are the colors we think that it sounded like? The ones, you know, charcoal gray, these are the ones that you prefer.

I put down five options. Yes.

I mean, how much time have you been dealing with this problem? Four months. But since the problem, I mean, in four months, your roof has been... No, since four months since I walked in here to get a permit. And before that, how long have you been having the problem with the roof? The leak?

Two years ago, I had a leak, and I had Dan Daly, the only roofer in Miami that works on wood shape. Dr. McKay could also deal with that.

No, but there are several people that do woodshapes. I have found several. I mean, it's not just one person. It's not. There are several. Unfortunately, you run with the bad luck of the city.

Well, he's a local shores person, and he's who had a former home. And since he's from Massachusetts, see him again.

Yeah. OK, so colors.

And they provided color photography of the existing home, of course.

Yeah, well, I mean, I would say.

11 by 17. Uh-huh.

Well, slate gray. I think slate gray, because it has, you know, like in from the slate gray. You mentioned which one?

I'd said medium bronze, but, you know, something that is dark, not too, you know, warm, something in the cooler category. I think it's a good match, a good modern match to this.

Medium, where is the medium?

These are the ones that she recommended.

Where is the medium bronze here?

Right here. Or the mansard.

So medium bronze too? Slick gray. Slick gray.

Slick gray. Of course, there's a... Just one question, please.

One question. What color is the roof now?

It's like a grayish...

It's red.

It's brown. Brownish. It's brown. Brown, grayish. I mean, from the picture, it looks like a grayish, brownish.

Right, because it's wood, but it's been weathered, so it's got like that silver... It's like the teak that it turns grayish.

Yeah, that silverish shine. So why change it for brown, for like bronze if it's black or gray?

Because since we don't have the metal color here, Patricia, the real one, we're just going for a range of colors so we can see the real metal color and then give her our decision. So the best, yeah, yeah. So the roofer is here. He's going to be very kind and he's going to bring the samples in the next few days. We can go there, look at it, and like you're saying, pick the one that is the closest to the current home color so that it will maintain its character as close as possible.

This could be an example for Eddie. Eddie, please, could you make a note that in the future when a homeowner brings ideas to change floors or roofs or whatever, Windows should bring to the meeting the samples so we cannot keep going and losing time.

Yeah.

The samples, yes.

That's true. Cosmic Dusk seems to be kind of similar.

Cosmic Dusk.

Yeah, I think if we were to recommend a few, and of course Ms. Neri would have to check with the roofer about availability of the product, you know, any of those selections could work and get this moving along.

All right, so Cosmic Dusk 2 AM.

Could we maybe get the permit approved for metal and work out the color later so that I can move this project forward? Because I don't like being in trouble with my bank.

I think that, I don't know, I defer that to Erika.

I don't know how do you approve a permit.

Without the code?

Essentially, yeah. Because it's one of the, essentially in the village code, the roofing section has a subsection that talks about metal roofs. And it gets very detailed about color, finish. So it's going to get caught in the review when you get it. Because we're going to want to see what's your selected finish, your color, so on and so forth.

And we couldn't just approve of the product class, the floral pond kind of selections, leave the final color, you know, to be determined by the homeowner and whatever is available. Because availability is an issue, too. It's not always a perfect sign. Yeah, I've experienced that professionally. And dye lots change. It's tricky. So that could be a possible solution. Just, hey, this is the product. We recommend a darker, warmer color to match the existing.

But darker, warmer could be blue, could be red. It's too open, though. It's too open.

Yeah, and maybe that's where we defer to our neighbor.

That's very subjective, too, because it's like... Well, for instance, late blue, I think that would probably be pretty different than what the wood original feel.

It's beautiful. It's a beautiful color. I mean, it's beautiful. But it's...

I think if we... to try to find a compromise if we say, like, okay, which are the, like, not slate, you know, not slate blue, because that's blue.

Or dove white, right?

Right, no, dove. Dove gray. Dove gray, no. Right, so we say, and then we say... But the charcoal gray you like, and the medium bronze, while it's, you know, it's interesting because that's more of like what I guess a newer wood roof would look like, right? I mean, originally it's weathered, but I guess that was the original intent of the design. And yeah, Pacific blue, I would say no also.

It's not on my list either.

It's not on your list. No, I don't see it here. Yeah, I don't. The slate blue, but not Pacific blue.

Should we just come up with an exhaustive list of yes and no?

I mean, based on what she suggested, I think the charcoal gray, the slate gray.

The brown is very brown, like... Because it looks more gray then.

And that's the thing, like we may be seeing something here, but the real sample, it's not the same. It's very difficult to, that's why I was saying let's get a few in a matter of days, because the samples only take like two days, three days to get here. I'm sure he also wants to do the job quickly. Then he wants to move it fast.

We all want to do this.

And what we can do is that since you've been already in communication with Patricia, I'm sure we can make ourselves available to take a look and pass it in between our homes and just tell you.

Is that important, a slight variation in color? It's not like it's an interior wall where, like, oh, a brown. The sun is going to hit it five different ways throughout different seasons. Is that important that we can't make a decision today?

It is. It is important. I mean, in my opinion, it is important. That's why we're here. I mean, it's to preserve and to maintain. I mean, we definitely want to help also, and that's why we're saying, okay, let's just, you know, move forward with the metal instead of, like... Speaking to something that is there.

I think the challenge though is that I Don't know Eddie. I mean If they were to get the sample next week, is it possible for us to all I mean we can't I mean we don't Would we have to have another meeting or I?

Can we just leave them here and we come and look at them?

I'm asking. I don't know. We've never done that before.

I'm going to go off the cuff because typically I've been in municipalities where the Historic Preservation Board issues an actual certificate of appropriateness that has to get recorded and goes to the village clerk. I'm seeing that our process is essentially the board chair just has to sign it. In essence, that's what gets submitted with the building permit. So being that this process seems to be a little bit more relaxed, I don't think there would be a problem.

There's a next step. Yeah, it's got to go to planning and zoning. Yeah, it's first historic and then.

You can issue the permit tonight. It has to go to planning and zoning. It's my understanding of the process. With the recommendation from the Historic Preservation Board.

So then that would, if that's the case, then it would have to be approved here at the board.

Can we approve it and during the planning and zoning, since she has to still go through that process, bring the four or five colors that we're asking to make in that meeting and decide on that color at that moment? Can we do like approve with a contingency or with a...

I think we can approve with like three color options But I don't think that we can go to the planning and zoning meeting and make a decision. Yeah. Yeah, we have to yeah, that's the Patricia your thoughts

Yes, first of all, let me just keep a record that Miss Neri's house was on the tour. We had a walking tour for all the historic houses on 101st Street, and her house was one of them, and people loved her house, so that's why we're very appreciative of keeping the character of the house because it's one of our major jewels that we have in the shows. And I also agree with that. You know, it was, you know, unfortunate to have two missed monthly meetings and then now with no samples might delay a little bit, but sometimes things are out of our control, as I say. But I agree with you that, you know, with two or three callers would be great.

well let's try to narrow down the three colors and then i guess we can um patricia are you saying um for us to approve select two or three colors now and and um pass it like that or or see the two or three colors i'm not understanding

Well, it's a difficult decision to make because it's a permanent decision. It's not just a single, like, color of the wall, like she said. It's the roof. So the roof might be there for another 30 years. So I don't know what to say. It's unfortunate to, like, keep delaying this process that has been, you know, extraordinarily delayed. And but it's also compromised to like select something that is not going to like keep the historic character of the home. So it's I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. That could be, you know, not everyone could be happy at this moment, but it's a big decision to make.

yeah and to add to that i'm of the mindset to leave it to the professionals the roofing contractor knows this product knows how it weathers providing you know half dozen options based on availability and all that i think is a is a good proposal from our board for them to match they are the professional to match it to the existing you know we are basing it off photos and basing it off of our memories from seeing it i think that's like the most professional option

Unfortunately, that is the problem because it's not a root. Unfortunately, the brown of a wood is beautiful because it has variation. This is a paint. It's not comparing apples to apples, and that's why the color is important. It is what it is. And when you say...

Yes. Allow me to speak one minute. This question is for Eddie. Eddie, can we approve the certificate of appropriateness with three different or four different selections or it has to be specific?

I guess my question would be is what is the anticipated goal with approving with three, I don't think it achieves anything because The whole goal of the certificate is to allow the applicant to move forward to the next phase, and providing them with three different finishes doesn't allow them to move forward because they would still need to get an approval from the board.

I was just trying to expedite process, I know.

And what about the idea, Patricia, of, again, I'm gonna circle back to this, get two or three samples, have the roofer leave them here at the village in the next two or three days because they'll send them really quickly so that she can make it to the next planning and zoning. Once we see them, we can issue an email to Eddie saying hello. That way she doesn't have to wait for our next meeting and then to the next meeting of planning and zoning.

I wouldn't mind that, but it depends on Eddie. Eddie, what do you say?

As long as we can coordinate a time for the chair to sign off on the application and indicate which is the selected finish.

Could be signed by the vice chair because I'm out of town, Eddie?

A decision of the board, signature of chairman. So I guess as long as you grant the authority to the...

Yes, absolutely.

I don't have a problem with that.

Okay, Michelle, it's your prerogative to sign that, okay? Okay.

If I, yeah, let me, so we're saying signing with three options. No, no.

I think what we're saying is we're going to direct the, uh, contractor and the homeowner, uh, the selected finishes of the board. Once you reach a consensus, I think I have four written at this moment. So I think we need to agree on which ones they are. they're gonna work on getting those samples and once they have them, maybe the right thing to do is they contact me and then I will coordinate with each one of you so you can view them.

That way we're fair with everybody. We're fair with the nature of the home and fair not letting you wait more and more and more.

Now the tricky thing is, is that You're, as a board, you're not supposed to be meeting outside of this. So what you're asking me to do is to coordinate each one of you individually, maybe throughout the course of a week.

Right. How we would align on one color. Right.

It's supposed to be a public meeting. It's supposed to be a public meeting.

Or leave it to the vice chair. I mean, I think it's okay. I'm trying to be creative.

We just picked two colors here today.

We picked two. Just two. I think we should have a few more because what if some of them are not in stock? Give yourself a good range. let's order those samples and then the chair the vice chair can come and pick and make a decision and it's only it's only so we don't have to go to these individual meetings and all that and you know we i think we all will trust your decision as being all due respect this is not really sure i'm an advent of history hasn't served me as a homeowner at all the fact that we

I just, this process, while you all were sitting, celebrating your holidays and having a okay, chill time, I was going through a very stressful time. I am the homeowner. I'm the one that's going to live with the color, the product. It's, to be deciding on this, like, my new color detail is kind of really insulting to me at this point. It's not about the construction. It's about personal taste. All those colors would match the historicity. Problems with design and aesthetic. I'm not sure who the board is serving, but it's not me, the homeowner.

I think... I'm comfortable, like Daniel, choosing three and letting the homeowner decide. I mean, we're saying no to blue. I feel like that gives the homeowner three options that are within the same shade as the existing home. I think that that's a compromise and fair. Let's decide on the three or four shades.

Are you gonna do a motion?

I think we need to decide before doing a motion to approve the three or four colors, we have to decide on the three or four colors.

But we can... A motion to decide on the three colors rather than getting the three color samples. Okay, yes.

So making a motion to approve three or four samples for the homeowner to then make a decision to assign the appropriateness. My understanding is that we can assign the appropriateness You know giving you know, it has to be one of these colors Okay, so I make the motion I second that To and then we You have to say nay or yay or All in favor aye

Yes, I would rather do it the other way.

You can say nay. Nay. Nay. Okay, so it sounds like three yay and one nay. Approve three or four colors and sign the appropriateness in order to not delay any further. So now let's pick the three colors. Okay, so let's choose the three colors.

From the picture, again, I see that The grayish ones are kind of like the... And that way we don't do the brown because not pleasing the owner.

So charcoal gray and slate gray sounds like?

Yeah, those two sound great.

Charcoal gray and slate gray. Is there a third option or...? Those seem like the closest.

Yeah, cosmic dusk.

Cosmic dusk. No?

I would say so. It's gray with some brown.

It's nice in the picture, but again, it may be horrible in the... But let's put it there, too, in the chicken pic. Which one is that one?

I'm hearing maybe cosmic gray may not be available, so we can scratch that.

It is premium, so it probably costs more.

Got it. Got it. We can scratch that. So those two and?

Yeah, those two. Those two.

Charcoal gray and slate gray. And those are ones that the homeowner likes. Okay, so I make a motion to approve charcoal gray and slate gray.

I second that.

All in favor? Aye.

Aye.

Yes, aye.

Okay. Approved. Slate gray and charcoal gray. Slate gray and charcoal gray. And we will put that in the and approve the agreement. And then I think you have to go then to planning and zoning.

Yes. Yes.

Good news is that they're meeting within the next two months. Two weeks. Oh my goodness.

Even I was like, what?

Sorry. Within the next two weeks. Two weeks.

There's no way to push this on. We've been on go for the longest time.

Yes. Better.

Good luck with your project.

They're more strict than us.

I think they can, yeah. Yeah, I would definitely take samples.

Would you like to just read the file?

Yes. All right. So Eddie has put approved with conditions charcoal gray or slate gray. Perfect. All righty. Thank you.

Good evening.

Thank you. Good luck and, yeah, good luck and we're excited to see it.

I would like to discuss a couple things regarding the process. Okay.

Okay. Yes. Patrice, I mean, Paola would like to talk about the process.

Yeah. So, I mean, I know we don't get much of these situations that often. but probably we're gonna get more and more as we get more homes designated, which I understand we need to be balanced. I think that is important, but we definitely need to have a process in place. Patricia, can you hear me? Can you hear what I'm saying?

100%.

Excellent, okay. So I think that there should be a meeting with staff we should request if there's gonna be changes with samples, renderings, all these type of things, similar to what happens for the planning and zoning, and for us to have some time to look at it. Also, I know on our end, we probably need to do a little bit more homework on the whole historic, because for example, the color, They brought a good point. Who knows if that was really the color or not? But that's what we have to go on right now. That's what we have. We don't have anything else. So maybe when this process starts, if we can get informed early, at an early stage, we can do a little bit of our homework, which is our responsibility, right? To take a little bit of a look, understand what's the history, if this whole home is this style, what were the colors, so that we can also be better informed. And then the other thing is during these meetings, I think the owner or the person presenting, let's do it the same way as planning and zoning, where they get two minutes to talk about it and they didn't interfere and go with this back and forth, because I think it's also uncomfortable. And it doesn't provide the appropriate way for us to make decisions because there was a little bit of bantering, I think. And we need to kind of make sure that the process is there so that it's not like we're here just talking It should be like presenting, us discussing, and making a decision. Yes.

Paola, allow me one second. May I speak?

Yes, yes. I'm finished.

On our behalf, let me tell you that always the homeowner stands up to the podium, identify themselves with the address, and explain the project. I don't know why. Maybe she was very upset for all the delay and she didn't want to come up to the podium and she spoke seated in the back of the audience. But normally 100% the homeowner stands up, identify himself and speak from the podium and answer all the questions. also always 100 the homeowners bring their samples all the time for us to discuss and in situ or you know later to to go on if we table the item or not so i think this this situation tonight was was different because I think the homeowner, as she expressed her frustration with the process of being closed for two months, she's waiting for three months. It was not regular, but you're right, and I'm just giving you a heads up that it has been done like that always, all the time. The homeowners fix themselves, bring the samples, and we make a final and specific decision. But at this point, it is what it is, and hopefully we can get better every day.

yeah yeah yeah usually they do bring samples um but i'm not sure what happened there and then again i'm sorry maybe i'm repeating a couple of things since i'm new i i wanted to like i just

Yeah, this should be formalized and it should follow a process.

Yeah. I remember one time, I mean, there is some time back and forth with the homeowner. I mean, our agenda is not as long as planning and zoning. And I remember one time there was a discussion, like we don't really have a two-minute directive, but I mean, yeah, we can... Eddie, are you familiar with that?

I can add it. When I prepped this agenda, I used all the previous agendas, and this is the way it was always set up. So if the board would like to add a public comment section, we can do that without a problem.

I mean, we do have a public comment section. It's usually at the end. It's usually at the end, but the homeowner has the opportunity to talk about the project.

I spoke to the contractor leading up to this meeting, making sure that they were going to be present, be ready for any questions at the end of the day.

maybe it's more about um like the deliverables have something written writing with the deliverables so that if they don't come with those deliverables then they're right there's a there's already like if you don't bring your deliverables you're not gonna be granted you're gonna have to be tabled like that same thing that happens in planning and zoning if you don't bring all your things if you don't submit everything, colors and everything, then you're not, you cannot really come to, because the person is in a difficult situation, and with her too, and I feel bad because she was kind of like, why is this, it's a little bit, it's a difficult situation, not even having the proper tools.

Yeah, I think definitely when requesting a historic replacement roof and changing the, material, you know, samples should be required.

So what I can do is that I can set together like some guidance and some information and we can read it and you guys can add or vote. Yeah, we can vote on it next. Yeah, that's a good idea. That way we start like having that.

This may be a good topic to keep in mind when you look at the Ordinance. Board's responsibilities in the ordinance. Perfect timing. Maybe that needs to be updated to indicate whenever a potential applicant is seeking to make a request with the board, we need to see X, Y, and Z. Yeah, because I don't think that. Like I said, everything that we received here was black and white. Right. I'm the one that went in. Thank you, Eddie. I printed the images of the house so at least you could see it in color.

I printed the swatches.

But maybe those things need to be better outlined in the ordinance. So that way staff has... something to stand on and say, no, it's codified, like we need to provide these things.

Excellent. That makes sense, yeah. Okay, so I will volunteer sometime and write a couple things, and then we can discuss them, and if you want to add or subtract from the list, we can take it from there.

yeah perfect perfect all right sounds good okay so uh we can move on to uh 4b so 4b we have historic uh designation application john mckay would you like to i'd like to take the podium please do please do

might be helpful.

Thank you.

Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

Just saying. Yeah, exactly.

And just saying, I mean, going to Key West, I see a lot of frame houses with metal roofs, you know. All right, but anyway, I'm here. I don't know now. Yeah, you forgot. No, I know. I'm here to request

trees there.

In addition, I just found out something, and you can see

But your asphalt has a lot of relevance to the wood shaker. So it's actually beautiful. I mean, it is very appropriate.

Yeah, you researched that a lot, yeah.

May I speak? May I speak?

Yes, Patricia.

okay um when i saw john's house the first time i just was in shock i said oh my god this house should be designated and he told me at that time yes i will eventually so i'm very happy for tonight's decision of john to designate his very unique house i think he's very uh generous to see there are three or four maybe not that much uh john your house is very unique and i love it that he will set an example for you street hopefully others will follow and we will keep protecting uh the historic houses in miami shores which this new style uh english cottage style uh opens up another another uh category another category that we only had mediterranean Mid-century, modern, southern, colonial, and now this style. So it will enrich even further our fantastic architecture we have. So I want to... I give you thank you and, you know, in the name of all of us, in the name of all the preservationists and architectural lovers like we are, and give you congratulations for protecting your house in the future. Well, thank you, madam.

Yes. But wait, there's more.

Talk about the architect, please.

So this was funny. So, you know, there was a master file list, and for those of you who don't Carlos Schoepel was born in Houston from, I guess he was from Austrian parents. Carlos Austrian? I don't know.

Tell me.

But anyway, so he really, he was born here, a first generation. He did two Mediterranean revival houses, one on Bayshore Drive and one on Pine Tree Drive, I believe. It's in a packet here. So this guy did all these houses that were, they said, for the wealthy, except when it came to my house. information in the archives as well. So that was really a surprise for me, really. That just came up recently. That just really cements it even more. So anyway, I want to thank you guys. This is a long-time preservationist. You can talk the talk, but I wanted to walk the walk. And so this house .. So if you have any questions, let me have an answer. Otherwise, take a seat.

Let me ask for a round of applause for John, as he's saying.

kudos well done yes i mean you know thank you john you know this house is so unique and beautiful and really deserves to be protected and we're really grateful that you are you know requesting it and um yeah yeah we're gonna have the best designation party ever any other comments before we no i second everything that's been said thank you so much so would like to make a motion to approve the appropriateness the approve the recommendation for historic designation to go to the council all in favor aye yes

to know what they're gonna deliver here.

The marker for the library. For the library. Yeah, we've been waiting a while for this one.

Well, these markers take two years. They started working on this about four years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two of, so it's a long haul. In addition to that, as a special advisor, historical advisor to the board, I'd like you guys to, or his buy-in. So we'd like to get, in my opinion, that would be an appropriate market for the village. Right. You know, I'm going with public, really public, as opposed to private homes, because the village usually pays for these markers, and if they're private homes, that's a whole other issue. Right. But we're not a private historical site. Yes. The other one would be the golf course, but the golf course is really in a state of Now, correct.

Now, John, refresh my memory because I thought that we talked about that and because it's a county thing. Isn't the county involved in the elementary school?

It may be, yeah. So there might be some. We don't know this yet. We're going to do some more research on that because Dade County Schools is involved in it. That's another bureaucracy we have to get involved with. Correct. So that could even stretch this out even longer. Yeah. But, you know, that's the reality of the situation. Yeah.

Right.

I thought that prevented us from doing it, but if it doesn't, then... No, that prevented, in the past, from my research, that prevented it from being designated a historic site. Previous boards tried to designate the elementary school.

Okay, not marker.

Got it. Yeah, I think Miami-Dade County Schools prevented that. Got it. That's my...

understand that's what I remember yeah so the county said no to having it designated but what we're talking about is a marker here so why would they have an issue with the marker yeah right and you know the board couldn't designate properties without consent as well so but you know but I'm talking about marker not yeah okay got it yeah I was a little confused so basically

Yeah, go ahead, Patricia. If I may, Madam Vice Chair, I wanted to follow up with all of you and also John that one of our goals for 2025 would be like trying to designate historic school. So I know it's not as easy as, you know, a local residence, but now that I'm refreshing with the historic marker, it could be helpful to also get into conversations to get the school history designated.

But I thought the county said no to that.

Well, that was in the past. I don't think anybody's approached that.

In a while. Okay.

Within the last...

Yeah, I think the marker is probably a good first step personally because I think There's a you know

the political environment.

It's potentially less contentious.

Exactly. That's the perfect way to say it. I would start with the marker. And if that goes smoothly, we can then kind of revisit the designation. That would be my suggestion under the realities of the environment today.

John, would you give us a little bit more information, you said, about the country club and the grounds for the golf course? Yeah, that's still confusing, yeah. Because the mayor actually has come several times to us and have brought that subject, unfortunately. I don't think we're so- So what's the question? So if you give us a little bit of background on the history of that and why you say that that may be in a moment of not moving. Is it historic?

Because there was a question as to whether the...

Yes, actually, the planning...

So on the grounds of the Gulf course, being it designated, what happens with these situations where the water management... That was what the mayor was talking about.

So what's going on right now, they had a workshop recently here with the Country Club Advisory Board and the Miami Shores Council. some challenges because that dam there that prevents salt water intrusion, I guess the salt water management, whatever company, they're going put a pump there or something that could really affect the whole golf course.

I have heard from several golfers that they're really against that approach because of what you're saying. It's really going to damage the whole... First of all, it's going to make the golf course smaller and it's going to be very intrusive into the whole... So if we have the golf course designated historic, I'm sure there has to be some recourse.

When it comes to your authority versus the South... I'm not sure how that works. And the only thing I'm just related to you is from knowledge I picked up by attending that workshop, basically. But outside of the historic part, which I'm telling you that we have the documentation in the archives. And I think a marker would be great for the Gulf Coast, too. It's just that it's in a state of flux. You don't even know how they're going to.

Yeah, and like in design, there's many ways to approach things. You know, the water management may be approaching it from the most easy way or cost-effective.

Yeah, I'm not sure the politics or the regulations or who, you know. The mayor was talking about it could be a court case that could go on for years. So I guess there's all these variables and dynamics that I'm personally not aware of.

One thing is true is that both sites require some upgrades, definitely. I mean, it will be beneficial for the village. It seems like that's going to happen. Hopefully it's done the right way, which is the concern. Same as the CR district.

The final update plans need to come to the board if it's historically designated.

Well, I would think so based on my reading of that deed.

Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for the information.

Yeah, thank you for the update. Thank you, John.

Okay.

Excellent.

Thank you, guys. Appreciate that.

Good evening. See you Friday. Tomorrow? Tomorrow? Yes.

The guy from Ogallaca is coming to give a talk on historic preservation at the library. Please come. He's excellent.

Okay.

615. 615. And on Friday, there's a dedication ceremony for Roy Hawkins, who was many people considered the father of Miami Shores with the Bessemer Corporation. And he was the one who conceived and helped get the golf course done.

Is it the country club?

Two things. One tomorrow at the library is a historic preservation, 615 at the library, and on Friday at 6 o'clock at the country club.

Okay, at the country club.

So we'd love to see you guys there.

Yeah, absolutely. Great. Thank you. Okay, look forward to it. Thank you, John. All right.

Can I suggest to be backtracked to approve the minutes from the last meeting? Okay.

I thought we did. Okay.

Mayor Burch interjected.

Okay. All right. So 3A, approve the minutes from the last meeting on October 16th. If I have a motion?

Yes, I second that motion.

All in favor? Aye. Yes, aye.

Unanimous. I think we did. Affirmed. All right, so any other board comments?

Yes, I do have one, Madam Vice Chair. Yes. We had last year a historic house of the month, and we decided centennial houses because of the centennial year, but because we never met in November or December, we didn't have... We haven't programmed or organized what's going on with the same... project for this 2025 so i want to propose the board to continue the program of historic house of the month but this year make something different and special to keep uh celebrating our incredible architect and we already did for mid-century homes we already did

I've been on the board for quite some time because what I'm reading here regarding certificate of appropriateness, it says, once the board approves the application, a certificate appropriateness shall be issued. If the certificate appropriateness is issued, the application shall be processed in the same manner as applications for building or demolition permits. There shall be a delay of 10 working days between the board granting the certificate and the commencement of any work, so on and so forth. If the board disapproves the application, a certificate of appropriateness shall not be issued. So it doesn't say the next step is planning and zoning.

So I think that if I remember correctly, planning and zoning requested, in their ordinance that historic homes go to them. And there was a confusion in their request of their ordinance because then they started getting houses that were only being designated. We're like, no, no, no, but they shouldn't get houses that are only being designated. That's our job, right? So then we had to go and make a request of an amendment to their ordinance that it would only be renovated homes that would go to them. So that's kind of what I vaguely remember. I know that Jeffrey was more involved in that. Is that what you remember, Patricia?

well yes uh we made a request and it was supposed to be approved by the legal department before going directly to the planning and zoning so i don't have any follow-up about the legal department yet

But I thought that that was already approved that if it's like, for instance, I thought that was already approved. For instance, John's house is the perfect example. He's not doing any renovations. It should go directly now to the council. I thought that was approved.

No, yes, for designation, yes. I thought you were talking about renovations. No, renovations, renovations.

Right, no, so renovations.

Because we were talking about the roof. Right.

Right, so renovations have to go next to planning and zoning.

yes renovation has to go to planning and zoning yes but it's not because of us it's like a regular building permit it's just that it's just that the roof is a little bit of a gray area because planning and zoning requests when you're doing changes to the size of the house when you're adding something but if you're only changing your roof i don't think it needs to go to planning and zoning only for to i mean being that in historic it may have a different route but let's say i want to re-roof my house right now i don't need to go from what i understand i don't need to go to planning something i just need to go and get a permit that's a good question so in this case he has she has to go straight to building department

I had a conversation with Alice before she left, and I asked her what is typically the process with the certificate of appropriateness, and she told me once the board renders an opinion of approval, you just have to get the signature, and that's all the applicant needs. She didn't indicate to me.

Going to planning and zoning.

Planning and zoning was the next step, so...

It's interesting because it's been confusing.

One more thing that we need to add to that code of ordinance.

But we need to understand that there was an ordinance request that Planning and Zoning had requested a couple years ago. And it had to, remember Patricia?

Yes. Well, we wanted even more. We wanted to have any demolition of a house before 1950 to stop.

That was different. That's not planning and zoning. That's also the building. That's also the building department. That was different.

That's what I'm saying is in the process of legal to be approved.

It's a little confusing, Eddie, because, yeah, because we, yeah, maybe it doesn't have to go to planning and zoning.

But the fact that she's changing the material may trigger the planning and zoning. Because if you re-rule for what you already have, it's one thing. But if you're changing completely the material, that may trigger the planning and zoning.

Yeah, it's a little confusing. I mean, I remember a couple years ago, we were, they were, it was a certificate of a, I mean, it was, no, it was a designation. And at the time, they said, okay, now, and we're like, but why? And oh, because planning and zoning had requested an ordinance, and we're like, but that doesn't make sense. And oh, well, if something is renovated, okay, well, that makes sense if it's renovated, but not if it's just so it had to be revised. and then it had to be revised and approved by the council. And I know Jeffrey was helpful in revising that language, but I'm not sure about this.

So maybe we ask him to when he comes back.

Yeah, but you need to know if this goes to...

I'll make sure that it gets to the next board here. Okay. yeah that would be ideal i mean it's not if anything uh you want to keep that in mind for the uh the ordinance yes because i what i've typically seen also is uh i've seen codes with historic preservation where there's um like a level a threshold let's say where A certificate appropriateness is more an administrative function, changing out a fence or fixing a concrete stoop. Things that we really want to take that to a board. And then there's things that is much more substantial and more invasive. In this code, it's not that. It's just certificate of appropriateness. There is no differentiation of the scope of work.

Ah, that's interesting. Also, you don't need to get the owners to go crazy because they're going to change, you know.

So if they were going to change a fence, they would still have to come?

They shouldn't, I mean, unless the fence is... part of that historic, you know, like, but if it's just a chain link fence, I mean, come on, why would you make an owner do all that? It has to have a balance. But a roof is a roof.

Yeah, no, a roof is important.

And Todd Leone's wall.

Yeah, there was a historic wall.

That's what I'm saying. It depends if it's the chain link fence, but if it's part of the historic nation of the whole, yeah. And there's a few here. There's a few that are beautiful.

A three-foot cement wall, yeah. But that one didn't, yeah, there are some that have beautiful, especially in the front. So in the front, that's a big thing.

I have seen, there's a mid-century modern home that has this right around here. They have the curvature like that.

Oh, beautiful. Yeah, that's right by my house, yeah. You think that's original?

Well, I'm talking about the one that is in Grand Concourse. Oh, okay, okay. There's one in Grand Concourse that is beautiful. It's definitely part of the house.

Because the one on 4th Avenue and 103rd, you know, it's got that really elaborate front cement, somewhat... Art Deco-ish, you know, yeah. Looks appropriate. I mean, it's, yeah, it's old, but yeah. I mean, anyway, it's interesting. It's interesting. All right, great. I guess, so it's a good opportunity to, you know, make, more specific guidelines and clarity. It would be helpful to better understand also, Eddie, what does or doesn't need to go to planning and zoning maybe by the next meeting?

Well, that's one of the things that we were saying that we should start thinking about because it doesn't really say.

Right.

It's very vague.

But there is an ordinance. I mean, I guess it's just like if there's renovation, then it goes to, right?

So we've had... Yeah, in the planning zoning code, yeah, that's clear. Like we... It's clear to us there. Essentially, it says anything that's 400 square feet or over has to go before the board. Garage conversions have to go before the board. Facade improvements have to go before the board.

But roofs don't. That's interesting. But it's part of the facade, though. The roof is part of the facade. So yes, there's the answer for this one. If it's a facade improvement, the roof is part of the facade.

Yeah, I thought they had to go to planning.

Because it's an improvement. They're not replacing it for what they had before.

Yeah, it's an update.

There's an update.

all right okay so next scheduled meeting i have we have a list here of recommended dates right eddie so these um february 19th march 19th april 16th you know no meeting in august and then we have september october november um no meeting in december okay no meeting in december um so if everyone's in agreement with these so i am yeah no meeting in august or and no meeting in december yeah these work for me and i'm and they're the third week it's the third week uh wednesday yeah so that's good yeah that's by ordinance the ordinance essentially says that Yeah, we're not approving them because we're not allowed to change We tried to change someone's and they told us no you can't change the date so it's always on the on the Wednesday There's 14 boards

And I think the majority of them have an ordinance that says the second Wednesday of every month. You're the third one. So finding an available slot makes it very difficult. And I've seen it with the P&Z.

When are the ones for planning? Are they on the Thursdays?

The fourth Thursday of every month.

And we are the what? The second Wednesday?

The third Wednesday of every month.

And they meet twice a month, don't they?

They have been lately. I'd like to curb that, but lately they have been twice a month.

Ours is once a month. This is going to be difficult. The third Wednesday? Well, the third and then planning and zoning is the fourth. Is the what? The fourth Thursday. Yes. The fourth Thursday. Somebody's going to miss something in the process.

Okay. Okay, I guess that's it, right? We adjourn? Adjourn.

Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Good evening.

Madam Vice Chair, Madam Chair.

Chair, elected member.

No prime and proper.

We're turning English here in the shores.

Thank you, Eddie. Thank you, Eddie.

Thank you so much. We all got homework. Yes. And Jeb actually has homework, homework, right? School homework? No. No, okay. That's a little older than me.

Yeah, exactly.

Look who's talking. You have a baby face. You could be in college.