Historic Preservation Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

The first item on our agenda is the Pledge of Allegiance. Please stand. I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United

States Of America,

Thank you. Roll call of membership. Don, Amanda.

All right. Can you turn on District five? Can you turn on the microphone to District five?

Just all shortly. Four, five.

I'll take roll. Dan Meissner? Here. Dennis Dougherty? Here. Nancy Peterson? Here. Joe? Here. Anne Marie? Here. And Lindsay? Here. Thank you. A quorum has been established. All six members are present.

Thank you, Amanda. I'd like to approve the minutes from the previous meeting of sevensixteen-twenty four. Do I have a motion?

I make the motion that we approve the minutes.

Prior to that, is there any discussion? Any comments? I'm sorry. We should take your now we'll take your motion. Is there a second? Second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Public hearing appearances. Is there any public participation? The podium is open and the mic is on. Go ahead, Tom. Tom.

Oh, no. So what we can do next is take up each action item and then once we're on a specific action item, if a member wants to speak to that item, we can allow the member to speak to each item as it's called. That's what I would recommend.

Okay. Great. That's great. Okay. Since there's no public appearance, we will, as amended, take it up as we go forward. Action items. Elect chair. Do I have any motions or nominations? You gotta run these meetings with

me. Oh, okay.

At this time, would any member of the committee like to make a motion to move for a chair for the committee?

Anybody want to volunteer? I guess I'll volunteer, but I don't know what I'm volunteering.

Yeah. What do I do?

I have to make a motion to nominate Joe.

Yeah.

Does anybody make a motion? Has there been a motion made?

Has not been. Anyone make a motion for a nomination? This gentleman is

I'll make a nomination. Do I sit for myself for one?

Okay. To nominate yourself?

Yeah.

Okay. Is there a second?

Second.

Any other nominations? Hearing none, we can close the nominations by default. We can move ahead with now you being the chair. Congratulations.

You're on a great campaign.

That was easy. Okay. Secondarily, we'll elect the vice chair. And I nominate

myself. Second.

All in favor?

Opposed? Set

next meeting date and Okay.

Now that we have a new chair,

we can

go ahead and we can let Joe and Joe, I'll continue to jump in as needed.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. So next, then we'll go down to the next action item, Joe, if you want to take it from here.

Okay. The next action item is oh, set meeting date and time.

I can help the commission with this. Typically, the commission has met on second Tuesday, immediate or excuse me on a Tuesday immediately before the second meeting of council every month at at 03:00 so if that's something that fits with the commission schedule that's what I staff would recommend keeping the same schedule so that we don't run into conflicts with other potential meetings throughout the day on this Tuesday, which is the second meeting before counsel. Okay.

Unless there are any objections, we'll keep it at that.

Okay.

Is that okay with

you? Yep, sounds good.

Hearing none.

Good job, ma'am. Thanks. All

right. Next action item is designate contact person.

Past contact person for the commission has been director Holman with the community development department. So if you'd want to keep Kara Holman as the contact for the commission, that's what I'd just keeping that consistent as past action. Do

we need a motion for that?

If there are no objections, we can simply just designate that. It's not really an action item.

I have no objection. Okay. I think it's a good idea.

This next one will require a motion and a second.

Okay.

All right. So next action item is to request to review and approve the proposed state historic marker text or request revisions as needed for the proposed state historic marker sign honoring Harry Houdini located in Houdini Plaza at 121 West College Avenue as described in the attached documents.

So if the committee would like, they can take comments by the public first or could take comments by staff, whichever the chair would care to entertain.

Let's hear from public comments, Sam.

Okay.

Good afternoon. Thank you. I'm Jennifer Stefani. I'm the executive director of Appleton Downtown Incorporated and Creative Downtown Appleton Inc. And we've been having a great time celebrating the hundredth year of Harry Houdini this year.

We have some exciting things coming up. And this is one of the items that has been on the wish list, and that is to recognize Houdini Plaza as basically the home base, not the birthplace, but the hometown of Eric Weiss, or Harry Houdini, as we so know him. He was born in Budapest, and we have some experts here on Harry Houdini, Tom Bolt, which many of you know has so generously offered to help us with this research, and this has really been kind of the go to primary source. And we've also touched in with the historical museum with Dustin. And Dustin offered a few revisions to the original text that we had submitted, really just trying to get it to a point where it's very easy to read, it's very inviting to read, and memorable.

So I really appreciated his edits. I apologize for those coming to you a little bit late in this process, but hopefully you've had a chance to review those and do a little comparison with the original text that we had submitted. But I do think it's a great way to honor the life of Harry Houdini, as Appleton was his hometown as a boy for how many years? Four years. For four years. And we have a lot to celebrate. This is the one hundredth anniversary of his passing. And like I said, we have a number of special things planned. So I appreciate your input. And of course, we have touched in with the Park and Rec department, and I see Thomas here.

And we would ideally like to work with the staff at the Park and Recreation department to find the best location, knowing that there are underground wires and cables and things. And we find it best to just work directly with the staff.

Excellent.

And I'm here to answer questions, as is Tom as

well. Any questions? Nancy, go ahead.

I wondered, will the plaque have his date of birth and death on it? I think it's important to record these statistics so

Yes.

It makes it more livable and recognizable.

Yes. I would agree with that, and, yes, we will.

I also after reading the comparing everything over

It's the it's just the year. It'll be just the year, not the exact date.

Okay. But birth year to death. There. Because that in itself is an unusual time for a a magician to die on October 31, that type of thing. But, also, it doesn't mention anything of his wife that was in his act.

And he didn't do everything alone. Basically, a lot of the things were alone. But Bess took a very was his soul mate. I wondered if she couldn't at least be mentioned when they appeared here in 1897. You said he, if it could mention he and his wife, because she was an important part later on with the plaques coming back here in 1947, handing out the Houdini award to the magicians and that type of thing.

And it also coincides with the plaque information that Tom and the museum drew up for the individual plaques. The last item that I would also suggest or question is it doesn't mention that in how much influence Appleton had on his early four years living here, how he tried out his different tricks and escapes and that type of thing. And that also corresponds with the plaques, making it more of a complete package. So I just think in some type of wording that while he was here, he got his inspiration for being a magician in Appleton, and the seed grew as he grew older and moved away. Because I think you have to balance out why we honor him and why he considered this his hometown.

I think the biggest challenge there is the number of characters that were allowed

on the plaque. Well, maybe then you might have to be like Jefferson and cut it to where never use two words where one will do. Those are only my Tom,

come on up. Do you have a specific edit that you would like to propose?

No, just consider these, you know, the wording, how it would fit on the plaque and what you could do with it before it's submitted.

I think those are very good suggestions. The real question is, is that the truth? And that was perhaps more myth than fact. We don't know for sure whether Houdini was inspired when he was here to be a magician. We know that there are several references that he said, but he also said he was born here, which isn't true. One of the things that we have to be careful of, together with the State Historical Society plaque, is make sure that what is on it is factual. And what you're saying is part of the story, but is it factual?

Well, think his marriage license to Best would be factual.

I'm not disputing. I think a good catch perform with him in 1897 when they came back. But as far as Appleton inspiring him to be a magician?

I don't mean that Appleton inspired him, but that's where the seed was sown here. Otherwise, your plaques mean nothing either.

I think it would be really tough for the State Historical Society to believe that that was factual. It's a good story. It helps the story. Houdini talked a little bit about that, but there's not a lot of hard evidence that he picked locks into Appleton, that he was a performer in Appleton, that he was inspired by a magician in Appleton. I think it's just tough to make that effect.

I think here's where we could add in Bess. Sure. I think we have some

play in Yeah, our the third paragraph, he and his wife Bess performed. We can add that. Think that's a very good catch on that.

But

as far as the other Appleton inspired him to be a magician, that's really tough to

I don't mean it that way. I just meant that while he was living here.

Forget

it. I'd like to believe that. I'd like to But say that that's

he must have formed some of his things here or you wouldn't have the plaques. Then your plaques are just stories?

A lot of the things are stories. Right? And the way that they're couched in the text are also that Houdini said. So and so said, the fellow that was the night porter at the Waverly Hotel claimed that he taught Houdini his first magic trick. Again, a story, but is that something and Jennifer is referencing Ken Silberman's book, which is Ken was a Pulitzer Prize winning author.

Haven't read the early parts of this thing, but I'm not sure that they would be able to back up that story. It's a great story. I'm not sure it's historically accurate.

Jen, Tom, this needs to go to the state office as well for their editing.

Yes, right. They have to Our

approval assembly leads to the next piece in the enigmatic approach.

Yeah, they will go through and they will want to check all of our references to make sure that everything that is in the plaque has a source as much as we can.

Sure. And that's

what all these posts are

talking about. Thank you, Tom. Yeah.

All right. Thank you.

Yeah.

Go ahead, sir.

Hi. I'm a rookie to this committee, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate what you guys have done. I think this is a really important great thing. Also, I was a journalist for forty years, so I certainly understand. I was in print and digital. So I understand with print, you've only got so much room, and you can never get all the stuff in that you wanna get in. And I know that's your situation on steroids with the plaque. Digital was nice because you had an unending space. I did just wanna ask a couple quick questions. I saw the write through, and I think this is great.

I I had mentioned too the changing to proclaimed proclaiming to proclaimed and the changing did to perform when the sentence about his European travels. I think that's very good. I was curious about the name. I see that if you Google it, you get Eric, e r I k, and e h r I c h, and I see the original version end with k, and that was switched. Mhmm.

And and I know it's one of those things where there's probably no way to say definitively. And the last name too I saw is w e I s z and d b and then, of course, it looks like we're going with w e I s s. I know that could have been changed at Ellis Island with either a mistake or they wanted to Americanize the name or whatever it might be. And I realized that his dad being the pastor having named w e I s s certainly makes it more clear this way. But I was just sort of curious as much as anything if I get asked about it, How did we decide on the the names that we did, the first and last name?

We went with what was on the book.

Okay. That was when

I first read it and I saw the k, and then I saw the source had it as with the c h. I kinda wondered. Yeah. And then the s instead of the z just because that's what he grew up here with. Okay. Yeah. And then the other thing is incredibly minor, and it's only I'm sure no one else will care ever. But being a journalist, our style was always for ages, to always use the numerals. Again, if everybody wants to spell out the word for, no one's ever gonna care. But I just thought since we were talking, I would mention it.

Yeah. Might save us some characters, actually.

That's true. It'll save you three characters. There you go. Yeah. I think that's all I had.

Okay. Anybody

else? No. I think I think it the Appleton connection, I like the way that it ends. Appleton proudly remembers its connection. I think right there is a great summation of of what we the research that is up above that. So and I certainly trust Tom with any of his recommendations on on Mr. Houdini as well. So good job. Thank Thank you.

So with that, we will need a motion and whether or not the committee wants to approve which language as well as any modifications of the language.

Okay. I move to approve the proposed historic marker text with modifications that will be worked upon by Tom and

committee needs to know what it's acting on today. So there were two different texts that were provided to you. There was a March 17 amendment, and then there was a previous attachment or March 16, rather.

March 16, yeah.

And then there was some language discussed today regarding he and his wife best performed be added to the third paragraph. So I'm just recapping to the best of what I captured Yep. For the committee to discuss.

Yep. Agreed. Yep.

I agree. Yeah.

So, Dan, with that, your motion is to approve which set of language? The the March language or the prior language? And do you wish to include that amendment regarding he and his wife, Bess, performed or not?

Let's go with the March 16

Okay.

Version. And I would like the ability to modify the terminology or the language as Jennifer and Tom see fit in their knowledge and

Well, can't memorialize

You have memorialize.

Okay. As they see fit at a future date because the committee needs to act on it today. Has to

act on it today. Okay.

Right.

I totally get it.

Okay. Okay.

So How

So I need to know what your motion is before we can move on. Do you wish that the third paragraph include he and his wife best performed, or do you just want to have that the or is your intent just to act on the March 16 language?

Let's act on the March 16 language. Okay.

So that is the motion, motion to approve the March 16 language. Do I hear a second?

Second.

Okay. The committee can now discuss that motion or make amendments.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Jennifer.

Am I able to comment? Okay. I think there were a couple of things also. We want to make sure that the birth year and death year are included. Thank you for calling that.

We're certainly not opposed to adding he and his wife, Bess, and then making the change on the floor. But we are subject to the Wisconsin Historical Society review process. And I think if that language can be included somewhere within the vote, I think that's going to be really important because that might be out of our control. And if it requires us to come back and go through the process again, it would, of course, delay things. Again, I mean, we certainly can do that. But if there's a more efficient way to word the vote, that would be helpful. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Makes sense?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if I'm understanding correctly, if we suggest what the verbiage should be So, for example, in paragraph three starting with the sentence, in eighteen ninety seven, comma, he, with the modification, and his wife, Bess, performed at the Appleton Opera House. So k. I'll make a motion to go ahead.

I was just gonna say is that that is historically correct that Bess did perform with him at the Appleton Opera House.

Fair point. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yep. Good point.

So changing that verbiage could potentially delay the process where it wouldn't be ready on the October deadline that you're looking at. Is that correct?

Can you come forward and just talk in the microphone? No. That's Okay.

We haven't sent this through for final approval yet. We did what they call a pre application with the state just to see if we could get this moving. So we needed to pause to bring it to this process next. So now we'll do our full application with the historical society and go through that process.

Okay. Okay.

Okay. So I'll I'll go back to the, changing paragraph three, the verbiage from in 1897, comma, he and his wife, Bess, performed at the Appleton Opera House. Make a motion for that. Second. Second. Second.

Okay.

And then if we are going to do the birth date and If you want, you can do them all in one motion. Okay. All in one.

Okay. That might be cleaner.

Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. That does make sense. So any suggestions, recommendations from the committee of where we insert we're saying the birth year, correct? Okay. Any suggestions on where we've and the birth year again is?

1874.

Okay. So if we say born 1874 Yeah. Go ahead, Jennifer.

I think they'll just put the date at the top. We would propose to just put the dates at the top. Got it.

Perfect. So we'll have the birth year dash death year before we start into the text of the marker. Correct? Perfect. Yep. Makes sense?

Mhmm. Yes.

Mhmm. Okay. Alright. I'll make make the motion then for also adding the birth and dead death year on the top, before the text starts along with our recent addition to the and his wife, Bess, all in one motion.

If you also wanna change the four? Okay.

Good point. Good point. We also talked about was four years old instead of the word for, do we change that to numeric?

Good? Yep.

Is a second?

Second.

Okay. Any discussion on that amendment? Hearing none, the committee can take a vote on the amendment.

Okay. Let's take a vote on the amendment. All in favor say aye.

Aye.

No. Nays?

Okay. That amendment passes unanimously. Now the committee can take a vote on the item as a whole as amended.

All right. So we are looking to approve the text, the language that was on March 16 documents. Everybody see that the March 16 per our amendments of the birth date, death date, changing four to the numeric, and the verbiage he and his wife, Bess. So I believe those are the amendments. So any comments, questions?

Okay.

Okay. With that, can we set them?

Now we have a motion and a second to approve. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? That item passes unanimously.

Excellent.

Move to adjourn.

Move to.

We have a motion to adjourn. Is there a second?

Second.

All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Any abstentions? Opposed? All right. The meeting is adjourned.

Thanks, Amanda. Thanks, Don, very much. Tom, thank you back, Yes.

You're welcome.