Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

Republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Rachel, you got any announcements? Okay, you don't have to. Um, our next meeting as we talked about is December 22nd. Is everybody anybody here can't make that? Good. Good. Chuck, you good? Okay, good.

All right. Um, when we are time for public comments, uh, anyone wishing to address the board of zoning appeals on any subject may do so at the appropriate time during the meeting. We'll tell you when that is. Those who choose to speak must state their name for the record. Each person will be allowed to speak up maximum of three minutes. That's not the pres presenters have 30 minutes. The city has 30 minutes. Presenters have 30 minutes. Um, have you all read the the minutes? Any any additions or corrections to the minutes? No. I I saw one where if I can find them. Let's see. There we go. I think I think one of them Rachel has has um as Carlos Lewis instead of race instead. We mentioned Chuck. It's on one. Oh, right. Yes, you see it.

One, two, three, fourth, fourth paragraph down. Make it that's a minor correction, but get that. I'll entertain a motion for um approval of the minutes. With that change, I hear anybody say a motion. All good. Thank you. Is a second. Second. Okay. It's been moved and second to approve the minutes. All those in favor say I. Oppose. passes unanimously. Um, this is a quasi judicial public hearing. That means it's sort of like a a jury trial and we will require anybody who wishes to speak to be stand up and sworn in by the clerk.

Anyone intending to provide testimony during today's proceedings, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth during today's proceedings? I do. Thank you. When you approach the podium, please state your name and indicate that you have been sworn. Okay. First, the city will make their presentation and then the applicant, the appellant can make theirs and then we will open it for public comments. You are Rachel.

All right. Good afternoon, board members. My name is Rachel Barry, zoning official for the record. Agenda item 3A is application number V042025. Uh this is the request by Veronica Martin of TDM Consulting Inc. as the authorized agent on behalf of David Fry, applicant and now property owner of the subject property for a variance pursuant to chapter 26 section 16.10 10 Pluggorda code for multiple sections of the land development regulations pertaining to design requirements to allow the construction of an outdoor entertainment venue on an approximate halfacre parcel that was formerly a part of 126 East Olympia Avenue, Punagorta, Florida. And I would like to submit the staff report that was included in the agenda packet to be included as part of the record. Uh, so as mentioned, um, the property was formerly a part of 126 East Olympia Avenue. Um, so I know it doesn't have an aerial underneath it, but the map that is up there right now is the blue is the overall property where the Bank of America building sits. The red is the portion that was split off recently and is now owned by um, Mr. Fry. All right, so a little bit of background. Uh the property is zoned city center. Uh there was a recent lot split approval. The applicant is requesting a variance from multiple sections of the code which we will go through. The proposed development is an outdoor entertainment venue with drinks, food, and entertainment. This was presented to the Historic Preservation Advisory Board because the parcel 126 East Olympia was on the Florida Master Site file, which makes it a designated historic property. Um, so since the lot split was not finalized at

that time, this property still being part of 126 East Olympia went before HPA. Um, they did recommend approval 6 to1. Uh the one nay vote was due to the architectural styles in the downtown historic area. All right. So as for the specific variances they are requesting uh the first one is section 3.9 the city center zoning district subsection E general requirements. Paragraph 2 which requires the front of a structure to comply with arcade shopfront stoop fourcourts or dooryard frontage definition. Paragraph three, which requires a structure to comply with specific architectural styles. Paragraph four requires a structure to comply with building principles where applicable by use. And then subsection G of that same section, development standards. Paragraph 7 requires a minimum 70% frontage buildout along the primary street. And paragraph 9 requires a minimum height of two stories and 26 ft above base flood elevation. They are also requesting a variance from section 7.4 subsection A paragraph 2 which requires structures to be built architecturally compatible with adjacent buildings through several options including but not limited to spacing setbacks exterior materials and scale. Also paragraph 4 which requires the primary entrance of the structure to be on the front facade of the building. Subsection D, paragraph 8, requires all equipment to be located in the sidey yard and screened from off-site view. Rooftop equipment to be enclosed in material that matches the building and no mechanical equipment mounted on the building facade, visible from the public right ofway or adjacent properties, excuse me. Paragraph 9 requires building

walls to be made of brick, concrete, stucco, stone, marble, or similar materials. And the final request is paragraph 11 which requires the first floor of street level building facades to be a minimum 50% of windows. So for considerations um except for the excuse me the proposed use is permitted in the city center district. Um the city has a prioritized set list of architectural styles. um this development does not fall within those architectural styles and that is why we are here today. So there are approval criteria listed in section 1610B of chapter 26. Six of the eight were found to be true with respect to the subject property and two were found to be partially true. Um so those two are listed on the screen. One is whether or not this is the minimum modification required. Um, I don't believe a full wiping out of uh buffering around equipment would be necessary. Um, reduction potentially, but I think there is still some room to buffer equipment. Um, and then the second one is whether or not the condition was caused by an interested party. They didn't write the land development regulations um but theoretically they did design um their business but would it be reasonable or feasible to design it to match the architectural requirements. So those are the last two criteria um to be discussed and with that said the applicant has a presentation that they would like to present to you. Any questions before before they go? Any questions from uh the board that you have of Rachel's cross-examiner?

Anybody? Okay. Hearing none. Thank you, Rachel.

Thank you. Uh my name is David Fry. I am uh the managing partner of Bay Street Yard in Fort Myers, which I'm going to allude to during this presentation. and I'm also will be the managing partner of the venue here if it gets approved. Um, but most importantly, I am a 1977 graduate of Charlotte High School. So, I just wanted everybody to know that. Um, uh, I do live in Fort Myers, but I come to Pony frequently. Um, the project, as as Rachel pointed out, is an outdoor entertainment venue, as you can see the imagery here. This is a rendering that we created from the front uh, off you're looking at it from Olympia. Uh the only thing this rendering is missing is there are four royal palms that will be along the edge of the property boundary that doesn't show in this image. So other than that it's a it's a representative uh image for the project. This is I'm going to show you a number of slides from our Fort Myers venue. And the reason I'm doing this is because 80% of the design style that's in Fort Myers is going to be applied to this venue. So it's the same structural material, the same lighting, the same colors, the same very very similar. the the big differences I'll highlight when we get to the site plan for the Pontagora venue. This is an aerial view. Obviously, we are fortunate in Fort Myers to have the six-story parking garage on the west side of our venue. Obviously, in the afternoon, that gives us shade for uh for the uh outdoor entertainment. This is a look at it from the main street. This is Bay Street looking uh towards the main entry. And I've showing you this because again, the landscape, look at the landscaping. Look at the woodwork, the steel work. You'll see as we go through this, it's it's going to be very similar. The brick work on the front entry here is going to be what we're going to use on the front entry of Pagorta as well. We do host a lot of private events here. Uh people, companies want to book the venue and they use it for their own entertainment, which we've done on a number of cases. This is a look from We have two levels on this venue. There's the ground level and then there's a VIP level. This is

looking from the VIP level down uh to the main stage. The TV screen on the back is 8 feet tall and 14 feet wide. It's used for football games. You know, a lot of we do Christmas movie nights, uh, college football, pro football, that sort of thing. And then if there's a band up there, the band is allowed to provide their video that will loop behind them while they're playing their music. This, uh, Fort Myers venue has eight shipping containers on it. The Pontagora venue will have 11. There's 11 designed into it. The reason there's more is we just found we need more storage than what we have in Fort Myers. But you can see those two murals. Um, it's hard to tell, but those are both shipping containers. The one on the right is actually an office. It has all our IT equipment in it. And the one on the left is liquor storage. And they're both air conditioned. All the containers are air conditioned. Obviously, the lawn in the front is artificial turf. Be the same thing here. Uh, the lawn on the Pagora plan is significantly larger than it is. That's largely for when we do have sporting events, people sit on those aderondic chairs and watch the football games. When we have night during the night when people dance, they use the lawn to dance on. This is a look at the upper level. Uh we've actually since this photo was taken, we've extended that roof over so the whole upper level is covered. Now the we have three of these. They're they're on the upper level and we we they're suites. They're individually named suites. So basically you can put up to 26 people in these. And then basically you rent them for the evening. Um you don't pay a price to rent them. You just have to spend a certain amount of money to utilize those suites. And there's three of them. If you have your own TV, a lot of birthday parties, anniversaries, things like that happen in these areas. That's a a view down from the from the what we call the loft, the upper level. This is a good aerial view that kind of

gives you the we had three food trucks last season. We've we've lowered it to two now just because the volume was not there for all three. Um we are proposing to have two food trucks in the Pagora venue as well. Um as you can see the back side of this venue, the left side is primarily where people go to eat. There's seating back there. So if they get food out of the food truck, the the the twotory structure underneath that is a bar. That's where there's two shipping containers that are bar and that's where a lot of the seating is. And then obviously on the front side is the stage and seating for people watching the entertainment. We had all the food trucks designed so that they would look like they belong as part of our venue, but in fact we have a third party contractor that provides the food in Fort Myers. We are pet friendly. We actually have dog watering bowls. We serve um biscuits for dogs that come uh weekends. don't get that many animals during the week or nighttime, but during the day on Saturday and Sunday, we get a lot of a lot of pets in the venue. This is a a good snapshot at one of the shipping containers and um that has been retrofitted into a bar. So, all the refrigeration equipment is inside that. Um there's two of these on the at the Fort Myers venue. There will be three in Panugort. And the reason is we learned that the second level needs its own bar. We had to roll mobile bars up there and it was very cumbersome for the staff. So, we've got three of these bars designed on the on the Punny Water venue. And and this is where I want to point out that these containers, I know we had an incident twice in Fort Meyers since we've been open where we got flooded as you guys have gotten here. I don't think we got quite as bad as you guys did, but we had over 2 ft of water that rounded these containers, but we had no water get in these containers cuz in theory, these things are sealed. You know, these things have rubber gaskets and when you shut a shipping container door, it's tight. So the only way water is getting in this container is if it gets goes up over the bar where you're looking right now.

This is we the we have three of these on the Pagora site. They're oak tree bars are basically passive areas where people can sit and have a drink. The oak trees are up lighted at night so it's kind of cool looking. Imagery all the signage will be very similar. Uh the idea on this wall here is there's greenery planted that today that's it's grown up higher than what that photo shows. But we wanted to cover with green uh vines and then that light that sign has the back lit games. We have ping pong, we have cornhole, we have uh jingga, botchi ball, we have two holes in the turf for putting during golf tournaments. So we we'll hold a mast's tournament and do some contests on the green. It's just a fun venue. That's a that's a party we did for raised money for Harry Chapen Food Bank. That's uh was that event that's New Year's Eve. We had 1500 people come through on New Year's Eve. We probably had 200 that never got in. So very very uh very popular on holidays. Um this is the the Pontagora site plan. And I don't know how well you can see this, but basically there's four zones on the plan that I want to highlight. On the lower right you'll see it says game area. That is the area where all the the ping pong and the cornhole and we're looking at putting darts in that one shipping container. So there'll be a number of games that that you can play and it's a much larger area than what we have in Fort Myers. And the reason that we can do that is this parcel is roughly 21,000 ft. Our Fort Myers location is roughly 12,000 ft. So it's it's a bit bigger. Um so we'll have a better a more authentic game area to be able to be utilized here. On the far left side is the food area. That's you see the two food trucks and their seating for people that want to eat there. And then directly in the center is the really the primary seating area. That's where you have the lower level seating and then you also have the VIP level which is raised 4 ft above the grade. Uh and there's there'll be there's four suites showing there but there'll only be three on the plan. Uh and then right below that you can see the restrooms. There's one shipping

container that is men's restroom, one that is women. We get five toilets in each of those. And then pretty much everything else is storage or office. All the other shipping containers you see on the site. And then the lawn, as I said, same thing here. That's where people will congregate when the TV is being used um or for dancing. This is a a rendering we did to just give it's it's not I don't love it because it's not representative what this ultimate look like. For example, that air conditioning unit that's in white won't be in white. I mean, there are just some things in here that I would not do. Um, it would blend in with the with the container, so you couldn't tell it was there. Um, but it it's generally gives you a good idea of the scale of the facility. The the planting uh I am a my degree is in aronomy, so the landscaping is very important to me personally and and you'd see that if you walk through the Fort Myers venue. These trees when we planted them in Fort Myers were 25 feet on the first day. Uh we got them I picked them out from a field up in the middle of the state and we have three of them oak the oak trees on this site plan. Another same same uh rendering that you saw earlier. Another shot. Again, this doesn't truly that that's not the kind of plant that will be in those raised planters, but you can get the feel. This is what you walk through when you walk in. Those planters will will have plants in them. They'll be uplit uh with lighting. All the oak trees will be uplit as well. So, it's a really The venue looks a lot better at night than it does during the day. I I can tell you because of the lighting. Another shot. Um, kind of gives you a feel of the the perspective of the stage versus the seating area that's covered. Two levels here. You see that there's a bar on the right and a bar on the left. So, if you're down on grade, you'd be served on one of those two bars. And then you have to go around the rear to get up to the VIP level.

These things are uh what we call drink rails. So basically [clears throat] they're woodframed. Uh these will be stained dark. They won't be that color. Uh and then the tops are concrete. So it's kind of, you know, bulletproof. It can live outside for a long time. Food truck area. Not a very good representative photo, but you get the idea. seating and and the trucks. And that is all for my presentation. Veronica's going to take over. I don't know if you guys want to hold questions for me now or wait till she gets done. Oh, well I I Yeah, you're part of the same one. We'll wait. We'll get to both at the same time.

Good afternoon. Uh Veronica Martin with TDM Consulting uh representing uh David Fry in this endeavor. Uh and I have been sworn in. So Rachel went through um the variance request and David walked you through the site plan little by little. Um I do want to add a couple little bits of information uh just to get that on the record for you uh like we did at the HPAB board. So the slide before you shows the downtown area and the surrounding um businesses. I wanted to show you um there we go this site itself. So this site is has frontage on East Olympia. There are several restaurants near this site. Parking is not required in the downtown center district. However, there is uh multitudes of parking, including a parking garage within walking distance of the site. So, this is a straighton shot, and you'll have to forgive me. I use Google Earth to uh and Google Street View to get these shots. So, this is uh standing on East Olympia looking straight at the site. And you can see right now it's just um additional parking for the old Bank of America building. Uh and this is just a second shot of that. And this is exactly where the venue will take place. So you see the two um current entrances. There won't be an entrance there. They'll just have a sidewalk and the landscaping along the frontage there. So this is looking downtown. Uh standing on East Olympia looking towards the downtown. And as you can see, there isn't anything along East Olympia that is reminiscent of the existing architectural features that are required

by the currently in development code. You don't actually get to that feel until you get um across 41. And then this is on the south side of East Olympia. And you can see that it's just a big vacant parking lot at this time. Uh of course the owners may decide to develop that in the future. They started tearing up. They tore it up. Tore up. It's still asphalt's gone.

Yep. The last time I was here, we actually, you know, drove by, make sure everything was still the same, but that was a while [laughter] a while ago. Thank you. So, this is the site plan. The only thing I wanted to add to David's presentation is that there will also be sod on this site. So, where the games and things are and where the shipping containers are located, that's all shell. uh where the dancing area is located is turf and then everything else will be sawed. So it's not all impervious surface. So there's lots of greenery, lots of landscaping, lots of shrubs. Again, David is very um hands-on when it comes to the landscaping. He hands handpicks the uh landscaping uh items, the trees, the shrubs, uh and the things like that. Rachel did go over um all of our variance requests and the criteria. I don't want to duplicate her presentation. Um David and I are both here to answer any questions that you may have.

Chuck, you got any questions? We'll go through everybody. Anybody have I have a couple, but I'm going to pass right now and come back to me. Um just looking at the the image itself here is the um I'm just curious the greenery that's around it here is that real those are that's real. Yes ma'am. Those are Clusia shrubs. Is that correct? Correct. Correct. Okay. Yeah. Everything is real. They're actually that sign that says the yard will have ivy growing up eventually. So it's part of my preference.

And as far as the shipping containers go, is there any way to make those um look less like a shipping container? I mean, do you know I see a lot of metal and I I know our high winds and the weather in this area. Um, especially like with the roofing, the overhang. I just wondered, you know, is there any concern about that or making it will have to be designed to hurricane codes. So, I'm not concerned about structural integrity if that's your concern. Right. Aesthetically, if you have a concern, then we can Yeah. I mean, I I just think aesthetically it would look nice if it didn't look like shipping containers, but you know, just wondering if that would be something. I had the same question. Do you do you paint them? Do you

We do. They're But they're they're painted black. So, basically, it makes them kind of go away other than the end. For sure. It it certainly Yeah. Other than at the end. So, I mean, if you painted them white, they would stand out like a you know, they So, we've intentionally paint them black so they're kind of more subtle. Um and but the ends on the inside of the containers, we do contrast with a bright color. just the indoors, which is kind of part of our design style. And they usually those indoors will match whatever the color of the aderondic chairs are. I noticed that Rachel, I'm not taking just one more question about the Rachel's uh document said something about cladding. Do you have you ever done any cladding to these? We we've only done one of these projects and we have not. Okay. Yeah. To how do you know what cladding is? I mean, I know what it is, but I don't know how you would do it to this metal.

Well, I would like to address one comment she made about hiding the the equipment. It is fully my intent to hide all the equipment. So, just so you know, we did it in Fort Myers all even though that shows that air conditioning unit that doesn't need to go there. And in Fort Myers, when we put units on top of the the containers, we put wood fencing around the the kind of like you see on the front gate, that kind of colored fencing goes around the equipment so nobody none of our neighbors can see it. I mean, that's important to us, too. I mean, I think aesthetically, you know, in this picture, it looks really nice. And like you said, if there's going to be continue or additional trees on the corners, that'll that'll look, you know, really nice as well. I think just aesthetically when I'm looking at it and I'm coming into the city and I kind of look at Ponttoorda and what we would like to see, you know, coming in. Of course, I'm thrilled to hear that there would be a lawn area because I've said I was just up in UTC Sarasota the other day and I love their little lawn area and you know the way that they host events and things in that center of that mall area. It's wonderful. Um you mentioned something about pet friendly. I would love to see things that are kind of more geared for children as well. You know, kid-friendly sometimes too, but um needless to say it looks very clean and neat. It's just that, you know, when I saw the containers and a lot of the metal and things, I thought, is there any way to kind of make it look a little bit more solid? you know, just something that's um a little more concrete and brick [laughter] and things that won't be bent and blown away.

I have no problem with structural integrity here. I can promise you. I watched them set these containers on in place. Basically, they have we have concrete foundations that are oh gosh, this deep and these thing they put weld plates on them and then they drop the containers on and they weld them down. So, these containers are not going anywhere. I can and and again that that covered area we've discussed as well because there's a lot of metal up there. Right. that large covered area, but it has we're going to be required to design that structurally so that it is hurricane code. There's we don't have a way around that, right? So, okay, that's all the only questions suggestions I have. Okay. You mentioned pvious surface. Do you know what percentage of exposed area will be pvious?

I do not have that number with me. We will be providing that during the um site permitting process. I can give you a guess, but you got to it's just a guess,

okay? because I know what all is pvious, right? The main lawn is pvious, so it's even though it's astroturf, we were required in Fort Myers to make sure it was pvious, so we had to buy the kind that is. Um, and then and that's a big area. And then the grass to each side of that is all turf, regular turf. It's Zoya. Um, and then the where the game area is, other than the small area, the game area, the shell, which that's pvious, too. That's all that's all grass as well. So, it I'm guessing we're we're over 50% pvious, but again, that's a guess. Don't don't hold me to that. Versus today, it's zero pvious. [laughter] Absolutely. But with the recent flooding, that's a major point of discussion on anything that's going to go forward here.

Yep. In terms of development, and we want to maximize the amount of pvious service we can imagine. Now, they have pvious concrete for crying out loud. [laughter] Papers. Well, actually, the walkway is paper. So, you see the main walkway that is paper. So that's what Patrice

uh hi Heather Kupki I think this will be a great addition to the downtown area and um I do understand the the architectural concerns but I've frequented a few of these different places in different cities and they all have that shipping container feel that sort of like somehow we pulled pulled this together and made it ours like a like a I don't know something a little edgy. Uh so I I can see how that's part of the design and that that part doesn't bother me. Um, is there any concern on the board about the zero variance behind it and like that's the only one that seemed to be like I Yeah, Rachel can't go.

Uh, Rachel Barry, zoning official for the record. And so with the way that this property is situated, there is typically a right of way on three sides of the property. And so when you have a property that's set up in that manner, um if it's a corner lot per se, then there is no rear yard. Um it just becomes another sideyard. And so that sideyard was a zero setback already. Okay. That's all the questions I have. Mhm. Okay. Can I respond to something she said? No, sure. Just the edgy part. I mean, what we tried to do in Fort Meyers, we wanted people like the edge. I mean, the people that come in that venue, they it's it's called cool a lot.

But what we try to do is when we have special events, we cover tables with black claws. We do things that make it feel a little more elevated. And if you've been there, we serve all our drinks in glass. Nice glass, not cheap nice glass. Now, that causes us loss cuz we get people trying to walk out with them, but we don't serve stuff in red solo cup because we want to elevate the experience a little bit. And that's we decided early on that's what we wanted to do. So, it's it's, you know, it's it is an outdoor venue, so it's very casual, but we try to make it feel a little upscale. I I have [clears throat] I have a few questions and a comments. What is the fence made up that you have on the perimeter? What is that? Is that wood in Fort Myers? It is wood frame. Yes, that's what you do here.

Yes. We we haven't decided yet. It probably will be wood, but we haven't made that decision whether it's wood or another material that's allowed by the city. Okay. And you're parking, you're dependent on the the the parking garage, the city's parking garage. That's where they're going to park. Yes, sir. We had we had one request from a I I talked to all five city council people and we had one request from this one city council person that if we're not providing parking, could we provide a pulloff where an elderly person could be dropped off, walk in the gate, and they go park the car. So, we that's what that pulloff is on the lower level left. That's a good idea. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I thought it was too.

Yeah. Um, and and your your VIP, is that the elevated area that you were talking about? Is is that just above above base flood plane? Is that what that is? It it's four 4t above grade. So, whatever our finished grade is going to be, it's raised 4 ft up. And then there's stairs and there's a handicap ramp. So, the overall height is 20 ft. The overall height of the roof, I think, is 20. Don't hold me this exactly, but I think it's 23 feet. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Um, so the food trucks don't move. You don't have to worry about getting them in because I don't see any way you can move them in. That that is our our desire is to have we in Fort Myers, we have a one-year contract with the food truck provider and they're the same guy same company provides all of them. So, and they do it in two other parks in Naples and Bonita. So, that's our desire. So, we don't have trucks coming in and out. We would prefer not to do that. It gives you continuity. I mean, we don't we don't own the food. Somebody else does it. But, if they have a bad meal that's served, it reflects bad on us. So, if we can keep the same people in there and get some continuity, it helps with that. So that's our preference and that's what we would hope to do here as well.

Well, I I too feel like this is kind of a exciting new thing that we need in our downtown. It's sort of dead and uh I'm I'm glad to see this. I I talked to um who a past mayor Harvey Goldberg. I don't know if you know him, but he he sat on this chairman of this board for many years and he was the past mayor and he went down and look at it and he said, "Bob, this is exciting. This is vibrant. There's a lot of people. They're having fun. It would be it would be a good thing. I said, "So, you're for Harvey?" He said, "I'm absolutely for it." So, just share that.

And for whatever it's worth, we we in Fort Myers and we would do the same thing here. It's I serve on four nonprofit boards and we use this venue to help nonprofits. So, I we just had a United Way fundraiser last week that raised $40,000 and we donated most of it. So, basically, and and we intend to do that here as well. We want to be good neighbors. Uh I want to give you another another thing we do just because I I think it's potentially an issue here. Uh we have and I have sitting here if I need it. We have a decibel meter that we use. So basically we monitor our own noise and we do it because the Luminary Hotel which is 300 ft away. It's a 400 room luxury uh autograph collection hotel. Very nice.

And and we have had them come over occasionally and say okay it's a little loud. Can you turn it down? So we've agreed with them on a decel level that they will accept because the city code doesn't have levels called out. So we've agreed on something that they're fine with. And so we we measure and monitor oursel because we want to be good neighbors. Good. Anything else from anybody on the board? Just staff has in their report recommendations that there are conditions of approval. Yeah, it's a good point. And I just wanted to make sure that you were okay with the five that they have listed.

Explain them. Rachel Barry is zoning official for the record. Um before there's one that I believe I would recommend an update to you if if these conditions are recommended. I believe there was one it's on page 22. Yes.

Good question. So the uh condition number one uh about the variance being valid for the current property owner only and shall expire in two years if they don't start building. U my concern with that condition is if they do start building the first part of that condition says it's only applicable to the current owner. And so you know say one day in the future if they were to sell to someone else that future owner would not have the same variance on file. So I would be fine with scratching that. I would agree with that. Yeah, that's that's not an issue. We plan to start this as soon as we can. I mean, the money is in place, so it's not an issue. Just getting the approvals is the issue. Now, we still have to deal with the DOT, I'm told. So, that's that could be a fairly lengthy timeline, but

Rachel, you going to talk about the other three. That one's not an issue. Okay. Okay. we get I I would agree with Rachel to scratch that um condition just because it has come across uh on multiple occasions where David is the current property owner but he may decide to do a quick claim deed and put it into an LLC or something like that. We would like to make make that option available to him. So you're saying not selling it not transferring it to a third party but back to an entity that he owns. Correct. Well, if you can come up with the language, then [laughter] you you're the engineer.

All right. So, as far as um the other recommended conditions, if it's approved, um the applicant's project shall adhere to the design as shown in the rendering included in exhibit 9 of the staff report. That might need to be adjusted as well if um cuz I know there was a couple mentions that that might not be um you know, the exact you know, color or design. Um so for the most part adhere to the design that is included in exhibit nine of the staff report. Um the applicant shall construct decorative fencing and provide adequate landscape adequate landscaping along a minimum of 70% of the front property line and that would replace the uh 70% buildout requirement.

Would that be defined more adequate parking? I mean what's adequate? Sorry, how how do you know it is adequate? Um adequate landscaping. So basically a a solid buffer. Okay. Um because if you had a uh 70% frontage buildout with an actual structure, you know, you would have that 70% of the front property would be obstructed for view. So Mr. Fry probably knows about it. And I don't have a problem with you representing our rendering because we are we plan to build it like the rendering. So it does show that that whole front other than our opening, okay, is covered with landscape and then additional four palms. Does that meet your conditions, Rachel? Uh shell. Mhm.

Okay. And then the last one, um, if there's not going to be any kind of cladding on the, um, shipping containers, the last recommended is that the applicant shall ensure that all structures are painted and maintained in a proper manner and any fading areas, scratches, peeling, or otherwise will be immediately addressed and corrected. That's fine. Okay.

All right. Any more questions from everybody? Okay. Thank you. It's uh it's time now for public comments. If anyone wishing I I'll repeat what I said before because there's some new people in. Anyone wishing to address the board of zoning appeals on any subject may do so at the appropriate time during the meeting. This this now's the time. Those who choose to speak must state their name and be sworn in. If you haven't been sworn in, please get sworn in for the record. Each person will be allowed to speak up to a maximum of three minutes. Uh is there anyone here who wishes to make public comment? Excuse [clears throat] me, sir. Have you been sworn in? I have not. Well, then we're going to swear you in. Oh, over here.

Yeah. Okay. Well, you can stand there. Just put your right hand up for me. Just put your right hand up for me. Perfect. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth during today's proceedings? I do. Thank you. I have a few concerns, but first of all, what your name too? Sorry. Oh, sorry. Kevin Doyle, the Celtic Grey Public House, 145 East Marriott. And your name? Kevin Doyle. Okay. Mr. Doyle.

We've always welcomed new new business to the area. We don't believe in competition that you only compete with yourself. So, the more businesses there are, the better we all are. Uh my only concerns are is to do with zoning and uh code compliance. And there are several areas of town where there used to be buildings, the youth save, what is called the city marketplace and a few others. And uh between River City and Sunloft, there's a couple of lots there vacant. And um the bigger ones are referred to as parking lots. They're just lots where people park their cars. Let's take about you talk about USA for now. What I'm hope dreading is going to happen, which has happened with the city marketplace is those pieces of land where people used to park are not not allowed anymore. I'm pretty sure it's going to happen with the USA lot. And we have festivals here. We want we have this town has more festivals than most towns in America. There's nowhere to park. We have two lots, two big parking lots. We don't restrict parking to to Celtic gray customers. If people are going to see the fireworks, they can park there. If people are going to uh anywhere else in town, you can park there. But as this this area of where people park, not parking lots, is diminishing and diminishing and diminishing, our town is going to die again like it did in the ' 50s, '60s, and 70s. And that needs to be addressed separately. But I just want to bring it up because it is important. As far as um Bay Street Yards coming here, I think it's fantastic. We've been down there a few times to check it out. We love it. I think it would fit right in where we are, but it's adjacent to it's it's I don't

know what the word is when two corners come together to our parking lot. So, we might not have any parking and we don't need the parking. We don't need to have it legally, but we do have it and it's welcome for everybody to use it. So, uh, I got no objections to anything. I'm just worried. Thank you. Hey, just a second. Anybody have any questions? Are you suggesting through Rachel that the city start looking for property to for parking? I mean, that or leave it alone? Leave it alone. Yeah. Without having to put fences around areas where people can park. That's public private property that the city can't tell them what to do on I guess you can tell them what to do, but Well, they did. They told them to pick up their asphalt.

They told us to u put a fence around the place. Oh, did they? Yeah. And there's a lot behind our our property uh on Marian between Marian and Herald Court. Uh that's that's fenced off which wasn't before they were forced to do it. And there's a lot next to turtle club wineset house that's got a fence around it that they were forced to do by the city and that's going to keep going and going and we're all going to die. I didn't I didn't realize that. All right. Well, thank you. Any questions? Thank you.

Thank you. And is there anyone else here to uh calling second? Please come forward. And if you haven't been sworn in, we got to swear you in too and state your name, please. Anyone Is there anyone else intending to provide testimony that wasn't here when we swore in earlier? Go ahead and stand. Anybody that plans to speak for this one or the next variance request or application that's on the agenda? Okay. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in today's proceedings? I do. Thank you.

U my name is Greg Maripody. I own Greg's Automotive right in front of the proposed site. Uh 236 Marian, no 236 Tamiami Trail. Uh we're an auto automobile repair facility. And as I understand, this is going to be alcohol and open till 2 3 in the morning and and vans. I have a lot of vehicles that are parked back there and equipment and what safety measures are going to be there from uh not vandalism but just I'm from Brooklyn drunk and disorderly going on to the prison. That's a big that's a big concern of mine. Uh, we do a lot a lot of high dollar vehicles there, Mercedes, Benz, and and BMWs and stuff. And also right now, just the traffic down the alley behind me, we're forever picking up beer bottles and and and glass and stuff from the just the foot traffic from where Deans used to be now all the way down to to uh the other bar. I can't remember the name of it. Uh and uh that's going to cause that's that's a that is my concern really about the the the through traffic and the goings on. I know they found a woman passed out in the alley two days ago or last weekend that no one knew she was there. It was just by accident and she was just transferring from bar to bar. So given given the the season coming up, there's going to be a lot more strangers to this area and this can be uh a real a real concern. Uh and that's all I can say. I like like Kevin and Kevin and I go back a lot of years. Uh no real issues, just concern.

Uh and that's all. Any questions? Anybody? Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Uh Max Doyle, um like uh like my dad here, I I welcomed the place. We did stop by. It's cool. It's really cool. I think it'd be awesome here. I was just wondering I I maybe I wasn't paying attention. Uh cuz we'll be future neighbors. What What direction is the live music going to be facing or pointing? Can I come up to Sure, please. No. Yeah, it's going to be heading towards the out.

Oh, no. I didn't hear. That's fine. Yeah, that that that image works. Yeah. Um,

David Fry again. Um, the stage, as you can see, is on the on the upper end of that. So basically that is the the Bank of America side. Okay. So the stage faces the opposite direction. So it faces west. Oh okay. Yeah. So it's the opposite. It faces away from you. So yeah and that that was actually a request of the the seller of the land. They wanted the stage to face away from their property. They didn't know what they property. Yeah. Yeah. So so they asked us to do that. So that's why we oriented it that way. Excellent. Yes. Thank you. Um I just want to stress enough about the parking. Um for downtown Fort Myers is a good example of where we don't want to head. So separately, but thank you. That's my time. Any questions? Anybody? Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I address the previous comment? Sure. I have a Yeah, you that's your microphone till we're done here. Good.

Yeah. David Fry, the previous comment about vandalism and your concern about late at night. We uh on Fridays and Saturday nights, we have two security guards at our entrance at all times. So, and that would happen here. There there is and I will tell you that in Fort Myers anyhow, um, our crowd is a bit more sophisticated than than some of the other venues in downtown Fort Myers. So, uh, and I think that's part of, you know, us. We charge a little bit more for our drinks. We serve our drinks in glass. So, it's not this it's not a I'm not going to tell you we'll never have a fight. We haven't had one yet, but I can't make that promise. But, it is a bit more sophisticated crowd. And we we monitor the perimeter of our property. We pick up our own trash. If there's trash in the street, the side street, we will take care of that. That that will not be an issue.

Thank you. Uh it's the third call for public comment. Anyone else want to speak? Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Make a motion to close. So moved in a second to close the public hearing. Did you hear Did you hear what it was? No, I heard Mr. Wel moved. Right. Yeah. Great. Missed. All right. All those in favor say I. I. I. I. All. And nay. Same sign. Anybody nay? Okay. Um, so now is there any more discussion among the board? Any more issues you want to talk among ourselves to this or?

We've talked about before Heather Kucki. Uh we talked before about making suggestions to city council um that support some of our recommendations and I think the the idea of Puna Gorta being a walking town um you know Celtic Ray mentioned they don't need the parking because they don't need it but I see people walking from Celtic Ray down to the restaurant row all the time. Uh and our our harbor walk extends around to the Lashley parking lot right here. Uh wouldn't it be nice if that walkway continued um through this alleyway lit up with garbage cans all the way from there to Ice House going connecting all of these restaurants and you know with a bar crawl capability.

I'm not sure that's what we want to put on this field, but I think it's a I think it's a good idea. And I don't know if Rachel if if uh there's a a way of doing that. she's suggesting adding adding uh lights, garbage cans and walking areas. You know, we can definitely look into that um with the uh with the urban design team and see if it potentially may already be part of a long-term plan um or if it's something that could be incorporated into a future plan. Yeah, I think it would just address all the community comments. Well, if if if this is approved by the board, I I think we need to talk about these conditions because the staff is recommending them. I I don't know if anybody has any problem with conditions.

No, I I don't. Okay. I would I would want to add one. Yeah. What's that? And that would be that to the the extent that it's possible to maximize the percentage of of pvious material surface. Do I have a second? Is that a motion? Yeah, I'll make that a motion. Motion to amend the conditions. Yeah, I second that. Second that. Give me exactly what it is so they can write this down. that every effort be made to maximize the percentage of pvious surface in the development of this project.

Uh it's been moved and seconded to add additional condition make sure that this maximizes the the pvious surfaces and and all those in favor say I I opposed carries. Um, now I'll entertain a motion on approval or denial of of uh this. And we have language here for anybody who wants to use it. Approval with conditions. I move to recommend city council approval of the 04 04 2025 2025 based upon the adherence of the applications to the criteria with the conditions that are listed with the conditions that are

and a new one added with the recommended commission uh recommended conditions um 1 through five plus the addition of number six to maximize the percentage of pvious areas. Mr. here. May May I ask if we can [clears throat] clarify to strike uh condition number one? Oh, we're going to strike. So, you're okay with striking that completely? Yes.

Okay. What? Why is that? So that would be the the way that it's worded now is, you know, like Miss Veronica mentioned, if he was to transfer it to an LLC or, you know, something that's not in his name, I wouldn't want there to be any kind of conflict or, you know, hiccups per se. Um, because that the way that that condition is worded. If you want to leave it in and just word it differently, we could Well, yeah. what we're what you're saying and correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying that he is he is not going to be able to transfer it to a entity that to him person that other than himself personally or an entity that he owns and is responsible for fully is responsible for.

Correct. Can we I'll I'll put that as a motion or somebody question. Yeah. But an LLC, you're just a member. Well, yeah. LLC is a a form of corporation. That's correct. But but it's it can be owned by a bunch of people or it can be owned by him. And we're saying solely Mr. Fry, right? You have a problem with that? If you are you going to create another LLC to transfer this to? Is that the problem? Well, it depends on with this approval lies with the land owner or does it lie with the operating entity? because there will be an operating entity LLC created that will lease the land from the owner. Well, we can accept that. I mean,

yeah, we can accept that. There's no intent. We're just The concern here is that you're going to transfer it to somebody else and not you're not going to do this. We like you. We don't want somebody else in here doing it. That's that's But as long as this is part This is the land owner, right, that we're dealing with here. Correct. Not the operating entity. Okay. Yeah. We're talking about the the land owner is already set. There's no plans to change that. So I'm just underline fee simple. So you're good with this? Okay. Yeah. Well, now just so you know, the the land owner is not David Fry. It's PG Yard LLC. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We But it's that it says current property owner and that's what it would be. You might just want to insert the name in there. It's word that way. It says she's rewritten. Yeah, she's rewritten it on the screen.

Okay. So I I can read it out. I'll read out the whole thing if you're ready. So, where are we? Are we going to put this in or not? Yeah. Okay. So I move to recommend to city council approval of BO42025 based upon the adherence of the application to the required criteria with the conditions of one the variance shall be valid for the current property owner PG Yard Land LLC and shall also be applicable to future transfers of ownership so long as said ownership is still she's typing

is still related to the current owner and shall expire two years after the No, that part's going away too, right? That's Rachel typing it, not me. Yeah. Oh, I keep saying,

thank you for coming, guys. Thank you.

Okay. So the variance shall be valid for the current property owner PG Yard Land LLC and shall also be applicable to future transfer of ownership so long as said ownership is still related to the current owner. Number two, the applicant's project shall adhere to the design as shown in the rendering included as exhibit 9 of this staff report. Number three, the applicant shall construct decorative fencing and provide adequate landscaping along a minimum of 70% of the front property line. Number four, the applicant shall install adequate landscaping to the highest extent possible to screen equipment. Number five, the applicant shall ensure that all structures are painted and maintained in a proper manner and any fading areas, scratches, peeling or otherwise will be immediately addressed and corrected. Number six, the applicant shall maximize the percentage of pvious areas.

You okay with that? Okay. So, second. It's been wait. Yeah, it's moved and seconded to do. Have we done this? [laughter] I can't remember. We can do it again. It's So, do I have a motion to accept these conditions along with the approval? So, we're recommending approval with these conditions. Recommending the approval with the conditions as stated. Is there a second? Second. Second. Okay. It's been moved and seconded. All those in favor of the approval with conditions as stated say I opposed. Nay. Passes unan. Thank you Mr. Fry. Appreciate it.

Good luck. We will see you all December 3rd for city council moving this way.

All right. Next up again, Rachel Barry, zoning official for the record. Next item up is agenda item 3B, which is application number 06 to 2025. This is a request by Michael Simone, property owner, for a variance from minimum setback requirements pursuant to chapter 26, section 16.10orda code, to allow a 6.8 8 foot sideyard setback for a partially constructed addition instead of the required 7.5 ft setback as required by chapter 26 section 3.4 Pagorta code for the property located at 959 Msina Drive Pagorta Florida 33950. I would also like to submit the staff report that was included in the agenda packet to be included as part of the record. The subject property is located at 959 Messina Drive. So, it's a high level aerial view, but you can kind of get general feel for where the property is located. Uh, the property owner obtained a building permit as an owner builder and commenced construction on an addition to their home. When the spot survey was submitted, staff noted the addition encroaching into the minimum 7.5 ft sideyard setback requirement. Further research appears to indicate a mathematical error in the building plans. The applicant is requesting a 0.7 ft or 8.4 in reduction to the sideyard setback to allow the addition to remain at 6.8 ft from the side property line instead of the required 7.5 ft. And I believe the applicant is here and would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Any questions of Rachel while she's standing here?

Okay. Michael Simone have been sworn in. So yeah, we uh um you know went through the process, got the engineering done, had the site survey done, uh submitted the plans, had the plans uh approved, uh went ahead and, you know, poured the slab, had all the inspections done, and lo and behold, we find out uh as we're going for a roof inspection for sheathing, that uh we are 10 in over the uh

8.4

8 8.4 I'm asking for 10 because I don't want to be back here in front of you folks because uh I I had originally asked the engineering department I wanted a 2 to 3 in uh leeway between the 7.5 ft and the the uh ext expansion of our bedroom that we were building. And uh that came back and and at some point the calculations were um missed you know miscalculated and uh the now that the block is like I said the block is up and the um the roof joists are are on and and there was another site survey done a post site survey done and that was when it was found that that we um you know that we missed that 7.5 ft. Uh we went back and did a lot of research to find out what happened because the addition is built right to the plans. It's actually a half an inch short of what the approved plans are. And uh come to find out that it was it was in the engineering phase that uh the calculations weren't correct on the 7.5 ft and that put us u you know 8.75 in uh into the 7 1/2 ft. So um ultimately as an owner builder you know it is my responsibility. Um it was a miscalculation. Uh John from the engineering department who's been sworn in. Um he takes full responsibility for the uh miscalculation. Uh and that's you know that's why we're here w without this variance. It would mean cutting that inter that exterior uh wall out and

craning it out in sections and uh having it rebuilt uh at the 7.5 ft uh which you know my my family and I we've been lucky enough we have been staying at a friend's house who lives one street over and that's been going on for months and uh they're coming back fortunately or unfortunately they're coming back and uh they're going to be back in in 3 weeks. And um we are already grossly uh over our schedule on this product and on this project and and you know we would have to find some other living arrangements and um you know not sure how that would go but um it does create a bit of a hardship for me and my family not just financially but you know for time uh for time wise. So, I I have been in contact with both of my neighbors on each side of the house. Uh I have uh written, you know, kind of approvals from them that says, "Hey, you know, Mike's, you know, a good neighbor and and you know, we don't have any problem with uh the discrepancy." And um I know that there were maybe a list of questions or concerns that that you folks may have. I don't know. But, uh that's why I'm here and that's what I'm looking for. and

hoping for your any questions. approval. Chuck, you got a question? I do. Okay. So, you were the owner uh builder? Yes. And you you've assumed that you are responsible for monitoring all the ultimately I mean and the neighbors don't have a problem with uh with the oversight? They don't. No. All right. And you intend to live there. You're not going to sell the house anytime soon? No. The reason we did this is we decided we weren't going to move. We said if we're going to do this, we're going to do this and this will be our if not our forever home, but you know, certainly for the foreseeable future. I kind of have a want or hold you, but a sidebar question. Sure.

Can um can this be approved with a condition that as long as he stays in the house that it's approved and if he sells it, it will become non-conforming? because I think in the regulations it said it could become non-conforming uh at the time it's sold for passively. So if he's going to keep it it can be approved with a condition.

Rachel Barry sounding official for the record and so yes um also at the end of this staff report or I guess the middle cuz the exhibits are behind it. Um but under the staff recommendation, if this request is approved, one of those conditions is uh the variant shall expire once the building permit has been finalized and properly closed and the addition will be considered legal non-conforming. So whether he sells the house or not, um it would have the legal non-conforming status and it could stay there if approved. Um but if there was ever, you know, damage and that addition needed to be rebuilt, it would have to be rebuilt at the 7.5. At the 7.5, you understand that? So, so we don't have to make a motion, I don't think. Uh, Chuck, it's on there.

No, no, no. I I just a question. It's on there. Just a question. I just No, I'm just saying I didn't I didn't get that far in the report. No. Okay. [laughter] Yeah. Well, I I I He's He's He's saying I mean, what Rachel's saying, if it burns down or storm strikes, it's got to build back, right? So yeah, it's not which is and and as long as that wording, you know, in the event that we do sell the house 10 years from now, it doesn't mean the new owner has to cut the has to No, that's good. Okay. Yeah, then that Yeah, certainly. That's my understanding. Yeah, that's that's perfect. That's good. You have any questions? No questions. No, I'm good. No, nobody Oh, I'm sorry. I did have a question. Yeah.

The letter submitted, was that the from the neighbor on the side that you're encroaching on? I have one from each of the neighbors. Okay. Saw one in here. Yeah. Um is that

the the the actual side of the infraction um Joe and Tom Auff uh they're from Illinois and uh I'm in touch with them on a regular basis and they're late 80s uh early 90s and um they were going to come down and you know I I encouraged them. I said come down let me show you what's going on. let me, you know, and and and Joe, his Tom's wife, Joe, she said, "Ah, just, you know, why are you even just go ahead and I said, "No, that's not how it works." I said, "This is a process." So, um, she so she said, "Yeah, listen, no problem." She said, "Put together something and email it to me." I did that. I left a copy for them so that when they got here, but um, Tom got sick. I talked to her the other day. I said, "Have you met, you know, I haven't seen you." Tom got sick. She got a new car. There's a whole thing. But they they didn't have a chance to come down. But she did say she said that she had called the city a couple of weeks prior to let somebody there know that they didn't have any problem

uh with what was going on. Those letters stay in your file or they get recorded. Rachel, sorry. What was that question? But will those letters of approving that? Do they go in the file or they get recorded in the public record? Do you do anything like that? The letters that his neighbor submitted? Yes. Those will stay as part of the application. Okay. I I'm sorry, Rachel. You have both letters. I believe he's got more here. How many copies do you have? Just one of each. That's just one of each to the left and to the right. Um, is it okay if we keep the one that was not in the We'll have to make a copy of it. If you guys just want to read it and then pass it down, we'll give it to the clerk and then I'll get a copy.

All right. Um, now is time for public comment. Uh, as we said, we have three minutes and we'll make uh open this up for public hearing. If you have something to say, I'm all on it. I'm Jonathan Campbell. I own Golf Coast Drafting and Design. Um, I wanted to just on on the behalf of Michael say that I started my business in 1997. I employ somewhere between eight and 10 people. Right now, we're currently at eight. I have an office in Cape Coral and in Port Charlotte. So, we we work in both communities. We've designed well, one of the builders we do a lot of work for is deal Horton. Um, out of my them years of experience, this is the first time I've ever had to become to a zoning hearing and beg for forgiveness because ultimately the buck does stop with us. We had a the site plan wasn't drawn to a scale. It was drawn to scale, but maybe the wall flipped with our computer program because it's the rivet program is pretty sensitive to that. Um that that's what I can assume. And my one draftsman that did the site plan was not the one doing the actual addition. So when the when James went and drew the addition, we had our setbacks and we thought everything was good. We did not find a mistake that was in the in the existing house um when he laid it out. So,

okay. Any questions from anybody? Okay. Thank you, sir. Um [clears throat] anyone else here to speak? Public hearing is open. The second time we're calling going three times. Anybody here to speak on behalf of the public? All right. I will entertain the motion to close the public hearing. Second it. I I can't do it. You motion it. You I'll second it. Okay. It's been moved and second to close the public hearing. All those in favor say I. I. I. Opposed. Various.

Uh now anybody want to discuss this issue? Um to me it's it's dimminimous and there's no harm. Everybody's okay with his neighbors. I I don't have any problem with this unless anybody does. No. Entertain a motion to approve this step as stated. Is this with the conditions that staff have? Oh, yeah. With the conditions staff has do point.

All right. I'll make a movement. Uh I recommend approval with conditions uh for V-06 2025. um that it's approved and with the staff recommends the following conditions for approval or with the following recommended conditions. One, the requested variance pertains to the addition as described and depicted in application v-06-2025 and shall not be construed to allow further construction along the side of the home at the reduced setback. to the variance shall expire once the building permit for the addition has been finalized and properly closed and the addition will be considered quote legal non-conforming close quote. In the event the addition needed repair or reconstruction, it shall be done in conformance with the Punaorta code including minimum setback requirements. Uh just there's a note he's been saying 10 ft. Um, we've been saying eight.

No, 7.5 in is the request. He's been saying 10 inches. 10 in. So, can we approve 10 in? We can recommend.

I'm not sure that we can u because one of the approval criteria is that you're requesting the the minimum um that's necessary. And I have seen in the past where someone brings in a spot survey and it shows that it's at the proper setback and then they come back with their final and all of a sudden it's 0.1 or 2 into the setback and that's just because of the finishing they may put on the outside of the building. And so in those cases we don't we don't hold that against people. Okay. So, uh, this recommendation is at the, uh, 8, uh, 0.8

0.8, I'm sorry, 0.7 0.7 in 8.4 No, 8.4 in. 0.7 ft at 8.4 in at 0.7 ft. Yeah, it something like that. She knows. Good job. All right. And it's been moved and seconded. We have a second to that. Okay. All those in favor say I. Opposed the motion. Um James. Okay. Thank you. And if you have this paper, anything else come for us, Rachel?

I have nothing further at this time. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Well, then we're a germ board. Oh, wait.