City Council - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. Uh today is Tuesday May 5th uh about 10 6. I call to order u a um meeting of the standing committee on public safety. Uh with us uh we have a quorum this afternoon. Uh with us uh to my right is uh councelor Shirley Azac and to her right councelor Win Farwell. Um madame clerk agenda item number one please.

Resolve pursuant to chapter 12 section 24 and chapter 19 section 26 of the Brockton city ordinances. The chief of police shall make an annual report to the city council concerning traffic accident situations in the city accompanied by recommendations and shall report to the city council the condition and organization of the police department including a synopsis of the business of the preceding year with remarks and recommendations pursuant to chapter 6 section 33 of the Brockton city ordinances. Fire chief shall make an annual report to the city council of the condition of the fire department, including a synopsis of all losses and accidents by fire. And pursuant to chapter 3, section 21 of the Brockton city ordinances, the animal control officer shall make a bannual report to the city council stating opinions as to the maintenance and conditions of every premises holding a kennel license in the city. Wherefore be it resolved by the Brockton City Council to invite Brockton Police Chief Rena Perez, Brockton Fire Chief Brian Erdelli and Animal Control Officer Thomas Dellis to prepare before the public safety committee to discuss and provide annual reports in accordance with the Brockton city ordinances. Invited to attend police chief Brena Perez, Fire Chief Brian Odelli, Director of Animal Control Thomas Dchellis.

Uh thank you, Madam Clerk. Uh and uh just want to um for the record um state that uh all uh three chiefs uh have provided their reports uh to this committee and uh we will make sure that those reports are also uh available to the full city council. Uh we'll start uh at the top uh police chief um go police chief Perez uh please come forward and uh good evening. Good evening chief. Uh always great to see you. Uh we appreciate the submitt of your report and uh the floor is yours.

Good evening. Just to um I guess give you a uh brief um overview as to staffing. We'll start in staffing. We have authorized 206 uh positions. Currently, we have 31 vacancies uh for sworn police officers and we have six civilian vacancies, including our grant coordinator and our emergency telephone dispatchers. We're anticipating uh 18 going into the academy with our most current list. We did ask for 30. We're going to get probably 18. Um we will be asking for another list as soon as we close this one, asking for another 30 uh positions. We anticipate that for next year we will have approximately 41 openings. 2025 we saw over 1,800 overtime shifts between uh forced overtime and officers picking up overtime shifts. 27% of the workforce in 2025 was not available to work with vacancies, military deployments, injured on duty status, and leaves and pending retirements. Total calls for service for the Brockton Police Department was over 100,000 almost 101 uh total calls for service including 911 for traffic data in 2025 including traffic uh accidents traffic accidents and hit and run we had 55 approximately 5,500 uh and motor vehicle stops we had about 5,400 with citation issued of over 4,300 directed patrols. That includes patrol, parking directed patrols, traffic director patrols, and fireworks. We had over 11,300

directed patrols in the city. We also have the road safety traffic grant. We had 134 traffic shifts uh filled and worked with 21 traffic zero tolerance officers working. In 2026, we have done se 77 traffic shifts with a total of 670 uh stops. Conducted two arrests verbal warnings have been 700 uh 400 over 400 civil citations over 200 court complaints five and citations issued in total over 658. As far as community engagement, we've had over 280 community engagements that we've participated in for special events, community outreach, community policing calls, uh, and meetings. We've had over 300 calls for C code enforcement. When it comes to uh crime data, we have significant drops in crime when it comes to robbery. Robbery is down uh over 40%. We've also have um shoplifting is down, theft is down from a building, homicide is down, theft from motor vehicle parts is down, motor vehicle theft is down u from 20 2024 to 2025 comparing those two years. When it comes to our move uh uh a little bit about our move update uh into our new building, the records office, the community engagement division, our CD division, our detectives and our detail office moved February 5th and 6th of this year, dispatch along fire and

police moved their dispatch 911 operations April 28th. um internal affairs and our background officers have moved basic today and we anticipate patrol, firearms and the chief's office moving hopefully by the end of the month. So that's ongoing uh operationally talk to talk a little bit about um some specific cases and some crime that we've had in this last year. I'm sure that you guys are all aware that we had a 30-year-old crime that was recently solved. We had the 1991 murder of Sher Bishop in 1993 rape of Donabel. That guy, well, we identified through advancements in um DNA technology, the DA's office. Uh so over 30 years that case was open. So that was a significant solved case. We also had um the state police apprehended a suspect in a shooting at Logan Airport recently, I believe in the last two weeks where there was a charge, he was charged with a shooting of a 23 year old uh and immediately fed the country. So when he came back, he was uh apprehended. We also had another one in March of 2026 that was arrested. Suspect was arrested and charged with over 14 offenses after a motor vehicle pursuit that ended in shots fired at our officers. Um he's also being charged with additional uh incidents. And I'm grateful that our officers are safe after that incident. We also had in March another apprehended uh individual following the murder gunfire of a of a male at the BAP bus terminal. There was an immediate apprehension and recovery of the firearm used in that incident.

March uh 2026, we had a uh homicide and gunfire outside of Clinton Street. uh through a joint investigation we have identified multiple individuals um and that is ongoing persons of interest uh have been identified and that investigation is currently ongoing. We had the homicide at Royal Gas um that has led to charges against multiple individuals following a joint investigation with state police and Brockton uh detectives in our Brockton Police Department. The victim was assaulted and ran over by a vehicle after the altercation. December 2025, we had a suspect arrested and charged with uh discharging a firearm within 500 ft of dwelling, assault with a dangerous weapon, disorderly conduct. Uh he fired multiple rounds into the funeral home on Court Street following an altercation. He was uh the suspect was located by patrol shortly after the incident. November 2025, we had a another individual charged with a non-fatal shooting of a 29 20 year old male at in front of Ann's place. After that incident, September 2025, we had an individual arrested and charged with assault to murder after several weapons were related following the shooting incident outside of Willow Street. August, following a two-month investigation, we had we charged a juvenile female with a nonfatal shooting uh after a robbery at of another of a male on Roslin Road. June had another male charged with a non-fatal shooting uh of a juvenile and elderly female at Battle Farm. And lastly, we had in June

of last year a another individual charged with a non-fatal shooting outside of Wing Stop on Tory Street and he turned himself into the station. We have multiple ongoing investigations uh of other incidents, but that's a brief update on some of the things that the Brockton Police Department along with our local, you know, with our state and federal partners have actually charged in uh people with these incidents. So, if you have any questions for me. Thank you, Chief. Counselors, any questions? Uh councelor Azac.

Thank you. Thank you, chief, for this um presentation, for the update. So, I'm happy to hear that crime numbers are down. So, um I know for many years we didn't have a u an analyst. Um so, I'm happy to see that we do have somebody that's bringing in the numbers and be able to give the public this information that crimes are down. So, is this over like a certain period of time that like what? So, we looked at 24 and 25. We compared two full, you know, two full years. Okay. So, and um so it was overall down whether um

there are some incidents that are um and I've talked about this in front of you guys before like motor vehicle theft that's more of a crime of opportunity that's up you know I'm warming up my car I'm going in to drop off you know this to my mother's house. So motor vehicle theft has consistently stayed up but it's more a crime of opportunity of people leaving their car on leaving it running. I'm going to stop at the store for one second. And I'm going to stop at mom's house for one second and having their car stolen.

So, I'm just going to ask a quick question. So, once again, I'm happy to see the numbers are down, but what can we what's working? What's helping us um besides the amazing men and women in in blue? But what's what's happening that's keeping us um bringing our helping bring our numbers down? What do you think is working? So uh uh yes uh the work that the men and women of the Brockton Police Department department is outstanding and they work very hard every single day being short-handed to protect the residents of the city. With that said, we've had longstanding uh relationships with our state and local our state and federal partners uh in many different investigations and operations. And so it is bringing those people together and and trying to think outside the box on how can we how can we address all the issues that we have in the city to keep our residents safe and our officers safe. So I think that collabor collaboration that we've had for ever is really the difference of the pro what we have in in the city.

Thank you chief and thank you to your department and everything that you do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chair. Thank you, councelor. Uh councelor Farwell,

just very briefly, chief, on any given day, you never know what the day is going to bring to the police department. Uh please keep up the traffic enforcement. I think that is so important. It's provides visibility of what we're doing and I think it has an effect on perhaps slowing down traffic and making people aware that we're out there enforcing the traffic laws. Uh we're coming into summer weather, so I hope you will again partner with the environmental police, the state police on all of the uh motorcycles, uh three- wheeled vehicles, and others that take to the streets and unfortunately cause a problem. Um and I do hope that we're successful in recruiting a good strong group of people to uh address the vacancies. I think uh I think once we get up to full strength, we'll really have a measure of what we can accomplish. Right now, it's pretty hard for you to be able to put the resources where they're needed simply because of all the vacancies. So, I appreciate the report and I appreciate the daily efforts.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh thank you, councelor. Uh I just want to extend my appreciation to you and the uh men and women of the uh Brockton Police Department for the work that you guys do. Uh it's always a pleasure to work with you on issues of uh public safety matters in the city and and uh you've you've been on top of it. So I I do appreciate that. Um I want to talk uh quickly about the vacancies. Now you said that we currently have uh 21 vacancies 31

31 vacancies and that you would expect by next year that we would potentially have 41 vacancies. Uh in your report you discuss uh some uh some act department activities and trying to uh recruit uh boys, young men and women uh to the Brockton Police Department. Can you maybe speak to that about what what's Brockton Police doing to try to recruit uh young officers in the city?

Thank you for bringing that up. So, we currently um have uh cadet uh openings available if anybody's interested. But on top of that, we're hosting uh we're participating in recruiting efforts at the high school, at South Eastern, at Cardinal Spelman, at uh New Heights. So, we have some of our younger officers, some of our um were cadets, some of our original cadets participating in these efforts uh in trying to drum up recruitment. On top of that, we've participated in uh the recruitment video from uh civil service. We've held two information sessions here in the city so that people can come in and with civil service and uh ask and answer any questions that they may have as to what the process is to become a police officer. Uh we've also um are working currently in our own recruitment video. So we have currently more background officers uh trying to do as many backgrounds as possible because the process is so long uh to get as many people in the academy as we can and it's been an ongoing effort since I became chief.

Yeah. And uh you know I just say to continue those efforts. If there's anything the city council can do to help bolster those efforts uh we are always willing to do so. Uh just quickly on traffic, uh councelor Farwell brought up uh you know uh increased traffic enforcement in the city. As we know, it seems like every time we're looking at the news or enterprise or Facebook, we see a car that's overturned. Uh we've had a few um you know, speeding related deaths or or accidents uh over the last year or so. I'm looking at the report that you uh provided to us and as you stated there's um been 77 traffic shifts with uh 670 stops, two arrests, uh 417 verbal warnings, uh 234 and you say civil, is that civil infractions or civil violations?

Civil violations. Yes. And then uh court complaints five is that for criminal criminal court complaints? Yes.

And then it states that you issued uh 658 tickets. And so maybe uh just briefly if you could maybe speak to uh traffic enforcement in the city. Uh I know we run uh multiple campaigns throughout the year. Uh could you talk about maybe some of the campaigns that we run uh the offices involved in those campaigns and and what are the results of them? So we have um through the municipal road safety grant we do have six traffic uh campaigns that they do a year plus um pedestrian and bicycle uh enforcement also. So to the six that you are referring to, we have distracted driving. Uh we have I lost my place. We have winter and summer impaired driving, distracted driving, summer speeding. And so that in these campaigns, we focus on those items. So distracted driving is somebody on their cell phone or uh uh speeding, summer speeding. Uh we're looking for for speeders, right? and it's about educating the public on the rules of the road essentially. But aside from that, since February, we have added three shifts per uh day, one on the day shift full-time and one in two two in the evening shifts of traffic enforcement. And that's been ongoing since approximately the 20th of February. So, we have um not in addition to any traffic campaign that we have going on, we're also doing that every single day. Three three shifts, full shifts, eight hour shifts a day.

Thank you for that. Um just lastly, uh could you provide a quick update on the uh homeless mental illness uh task force? uh you were before the council earlier this year uh presenting that um uh you know really a great task force. Um where where are we on the hiring and the implementation of that task force?

Thank you for bringing that up counselor. So we are in the process of the the postings just closed at one closed at the end of the month and the other one closed uh I want to say mid March. two of them closed, two and two, two in the mid, two in the end. And we're in the process of reviewing the application so that we can sit down and have interviews. So, as you know, we're looking for the harm reduction specialists. We're looking for the navigators, two navigators, two clinicians, and then we're also in the process of interviewing our two community officers. So, and has there been good uh response to the postings? what I've I've seen. I haven't reviewed the uh resumes yet, but there seems to be some good uh applications in.

Great. Great. Uh thank you for that, Chief Counselor. Any last questions for uh Chief Perez? Thank you, Chief. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time and effort and uh we'll we'll see you shortly at 7. Thank you. Appreciate it. So, we'll uh move to Fire Chief Brian Nardelli. Good evening, Chief Nardelli.

Good evening, Chair Thompson. Good evening, councilors. Appreciate you having us in. Um, give you a brief synopsis of what's going on, how things are going, and uh then obviously take any questions that you may have. In the the timeline that I mapped out was the year calendar 2025. So, anything um that I'm going to speak on tonight is up to the um January I mean sorry December 31st of 2025. Um we responded to 39,445 incidents um up about 408 calls from the previous year which is a common trend. We're going up each year. Um, in total we responded to 36 working fires, which is probably double what we had in previous years. And I'm going to get into the reason for that in a minute. We had 11 second alarms and only two multiple alarm fires. We were in in total the staffing of the Brockton Fire Department currently is at 232. That includes um 209 firefighting personnel, 12 fire alarm operators, two mechanics, three electricians, three clerks in the department as a whole. 209 uniformed firefighting personnel, including myself. We had a very good year in regards to what we were able to complete in regards to projects. We received three new pieces of fire apparatus. a new squad A housed at 42 Pleasant Street, a new ladder company 4 that is a mid-mount tower ladder that we've finally now got one after a couple years cuz the frame broke on our on our on our previous one. And when you're used to a certain type of piece of equipment within the city for certain aspects, it's it's it's interesting when you don't have one. We received another uh ladder 2 that is down the uh Campell section of the city at station 2. And we have two engines currently on order from PS Manufacturing that probably won't be here until late

2028. um with the with the buildout times and back orders and such. Um some of the things that we were able to accomplish, we were able to purchase a seek thermal imaging camera for every riding position on every piece of apparatus. Why that's important is it gives the newest kid on the back step the ability to find a hose line in a smoky condition, find his way out of a building. It's more of a safety aspect. Now, we carry thermal images on all our fire apparatus, but the importance of it and having in every position, this isn't one you're going to determine and make decisions on. That's the one the company officer carries. This one is if if a firefighter gets separated from a hose line or things of that nature, he'll be able to find his way back. Becomes very important. We had two maydays on the fire ground in 2025. Um, one of them being a situation where we had a firefighter that fell through a floor in a hoarder house. Um, very cluttered environment and he he actually said he used the seek to see the hole to get where they pulled him back up cuz when they called the mayday as he was going through the floor, he pulled the lapel mic off of the officer and they only got one mayday out. By the time they had activated the rapid intervention team, they had him out of the hole because he was able to see where he he needed to go cuz you could see the hose line going above him. So, I think I think those are the important things that keep our firefighters safe so they can do their job. That extra little bit bit piece of of of of comfort. Um, we're in the process of doing some work over at the shop. We have um we have to replace our our lift to lift the trucks up um to do work on them. We are very fortunate to have two very skilled mechanics that work on our fire apparatus. I talk to chiefs all over the Commonwealth all the time that have to send their apparatus out or or they don't have a emergency vehicle technician, an EVT certified working on them. They'll send them to somebody just to get work done. We are extremely um fortunate in having Steve Conrad and Joe McDonald to be able to do that work. Um to speak on that, um we're going to be

replacing that lift hopefully within the next 6 months by the time it gets back from from from being bid out. Couple of things real quick. I was here um I put in every year for obviously more overtime money to cover vacancies and openings. Obviously, we're fully staffed right now, although I did have to move money over from my previous budget. I was here back in Jan my budget to move over for this current fiscal year. That's been a growing trend. Doesn't seem to be a problem. We can find places where we can move money from. I work with the CFO to make sure that happens correctly. Um the new building to talk about the transition into the new building really quickly. Um, something that's very important with that is the the the I was myself, the training division and fire were able to move back in back in January. Worked out great. But remember that's office staff and things of that nature. The chief touched on it. Chief Perez touched on it earlier when she spoke um a week ago today. We moved the communication system into that building that included her 911 operators, her police dispatchers, and our fire alarm operators. Why that is important is that was probably the most complex move of this entire operation and it was pulled off without a hitch. We collaborated very closely with the police department, very closely with state 911. Um Jim Dunovan, who is our um our our supervisor for the uh electricians. I find it interesting this man for three years has been very stressed out about the situation in regards to moving all the lines. Remember, we have 20 circuits that go throughout the city that go to our game well system to our our boxes on the on the polls that we still get a number of calls on. Um, we've had the ability to keep those up very well, maintain very well. People are amazed at what the job our guys do in this city to maintain those boxes. That was a complex move and I applaud our signal members who who who had to work through all those circuits, take them from Warren, get them all the way up Warren. You don't realize what a big complexity that is until you look into one of those

manholes and see a fray of wires everywhere. And those have to be marked, watched, spliced, re-placed. Um, so that was a complex move that um I don't think anyone in the city knew what happened and that's that's the that's the importance of it. Um, I I say that because when moves like that happen, if we have an interruption, something went wrong, right? Nothing happened. calls came in, firet trucks, police cruisers, everyone still responded and serviced the residents of the city. And that was what was important about that move. Um, one thing real quick that I think is new that we we really were happy to do and and I was able to talk about it at one of the council meetings. We partnered with the Brockton public schools. Dr. Tahiliani was was instrumental in making this work with uh Dennis Ganu and Nick Lee in the high school. We started our first uh fire youth academy. So tonight at 6:30 um they're in their third or fourth week right now. We have um right now five juniors from Brockton High School seeing what it's like to be a firefighter. So we put them through this entire process. They see different tidbits of the fire service. They've gone down to the Bridgewater Fire Academy to see him burning in the burn building and not going in the building, but seeing from the outside. This has been something I wanted to do since um I took over as chief in 2021. And Peter Reen did an incredible job getting that off to the races. Um he's our safe officer. He's in the schools every day. He works with these kids every day at the elementary level. And he works with our seniors every day. And I'll tell you, he when I said, "You think we can do this? Let's" and we looked at a bunch of different plans with the Boy Scouts and YMCA and the Boys and Girls Club. We ended up taking it on our own. And he has taken the ball and run with it. It's been an incredible process. We had our first graduation last spring and we'll have I'm sorry, last fall and we'll have another graduation probably with these youngsters um in June, which we're really looking forward to because they're good kids. They vet them out for us. I I I the a lot of the reason behind

this was just so you're aware. Everybody's not going to go to college. Everybody's not going to be a doctor or a lawyer, whatever that is. I'm a perfect example of that. I'm a BHS product of 1990, stayed in the city, and I'm the fire chief now. And this was something I always wanted to do, but I didn't know how to do it. And a lot of kids don't do it. And and don't know how to do it. And and and we're out in the schools when they're young, but not when they're older. Why aren't we out in the schools when they're older? And this has been instrumental of getting potentially those juniors in high school that really want to look at a career like this. And now when they graduate, they take the civil service test when they're 19 and they understand what they're looking for to to to transition into something else. That's we've been doing civil service open houses in August to keep our numbers up. When I first took over in um in 2021, our our numbers were down 12%. Our numbers always went up for recruitment. We never had an issue with recruitment. Um and they were down. So, we tried to think of what we could do. The civil service openhouse were a huge were a huge part of that. That being said, our numbers are up 36% now. Wildly impressive from where we were before. So, that's that's what we like to see. We want every single kid in the city taking this this this test if they can cuz I want the best and the brightest, right? Um, one of the things I I think is important to talk about and and I'll obviously take any questions and I'll I'll I'll leave off at that. I said at the beginning our our our working fires were up but our multiple alarms are down greatly. There's a reason for that. Five years ago, um, beginning five years ago, we've added 25 new positions between the safer grant and nine new positions that the council authorized through the mayor. That staffing was allowed us to put the heavy rescue into service and allowed to increase our staffing on our apparatus. It also gave us the ability I sat down with my command staff to see if we would then be able to send on when someone

calls and says, "My house is on fire," what we call a struck box. we're able to send more firefighters to that scene immediately versus before we'd have to hold back because we didn't have the personnel to be able to do that. Being able to do that has made an incredible difference. We've had only one and I not only one, any one is not good, but one fatal fire in 5 years. That is that is down over 75% from years previous. A lot of that has to do with fire prevention. A lot of that has to do with um good practices and people paying attention to what they're doing in their homes. But a lot of it has a lot of it I would say has to do with staffing because our rescues that we've made over ground ladders through houses over aerial ladders is up over 45% in those 5 years. So having that staffing on scene has made an incredible difference. So the working fires have increased because the amount of bodies we're putting there early is okay. That's the working fire. Then you go to a second alarm. Our second alarms are about the way they've been. multiples have dropped off because of that front loing that response early on and it's only because of staffing. Um I said earlier we have two fire pieces of fire apparatus on order right now and that's very important right it's very important to have reliable equipment but without bodies people's lives aren't saved property is not saved and that is imperative um so so I'll I'll leave you with that because that's that right there in the fire service when when I talk about this with other fire chiefs is a huge success story in itself and the city's commitment to staffing the fire apparatus the way they need to be staffed is why that is the way it is. So, I appreciate you taking the time tonight to listen to me. I could go on forever. You all know that about the Brockton Fire Department, but I'll take any questions you might have.

Well, uh, thank you, Chief. Um, uh, Councelor Aac. Thank you. Thank you, Chief, um, for this update for the numbers. And, um, even though one life is one too many, but one fatality in five years, I mean, that's amazing. Congratulations that to your team, to your department. Thank you for all you do for for the men and women in the fire department. So, I just want to say thank you. Thank you, counselor. Counselor Farwell,

of all of the department heads, I know that if you need something, if the men and women of the fire department need something, you're going to let us know. So, I don't have a lot of questions for you tonight, but I I thank each and every one of you for what you do. Uh you you could not pay me to be a firefighter. Number one, I'm afraid of ladders. And number two, I just don't see myself carrying a person my weight down over a ladder to save them. So uh it's a wonderful profession and uh uh one of the greatest things I think I did was appoint you to the fire department if I'm not mistaken. That's correct. That's correct. Way back when? Well, way back when. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you, counselor. Uh Chief, just want to, you know, thank you for appearing tonight. uh for your uh wholesome report uh for your love of the Brockton Fire Department and fire science and um you know you're doing a great job. Uh the fact that that we our staffing numbers are where they should be, but our recruiting numbers are rising. It's because it's because people want to be a Brockton firefighter. All right. They they we are the I would say the crown jewel. The Brockton Fire Department is the crown jewel of the Commonwealth Fire Departments and and everybody wants to be a part of it and it's due to your leadership uh your commitment to your firefighters and uh the the the excellence that the Brockton Fire Department shows uh all the time in every challenge that they have had, they faced it headon and they've uh hit the ball out of the park. And so that's a testament to uh the men and women of the fire department and your leadership, sir. Um just two two quick questions. Um, can we talk about the buildings? Right. In your summary, you talk about maybe some of the conditions uh of our fire department buildings. Now, we know we have some buildings that are knocking on 100 years old and so can you just talk about the condition of uh condition of our fire department buildings.

Yeah. So, so I appreciate that and thank you for asking. Um,

we're struggling with buildings. Um, we are just just two weeks ago we did a mold assessment at Campello Firehouse and we have to replace some walls and do some some things down there. We have put roofs on. Um, we I've been working with the finance office to get capital funds to increase putting the roofs on cuz that's where we're seeing the problems, right? The bones of these older buildings are much better than the 60s era buildings, right? Um and and and the problems we're seeing in the 1960s era buildings like the East Side, West Side, um and and and and Kerry Hill, um they just weren't built the same, right? They they didn't have full length lumber. They they might not had the same structural steel they had early on. And and we're working through them. There are some capital expenses that I've I've spoken to Dr. Clarkson about. Um and I think that that he'll we'll be able to move forward with some of those moving forward. Again, it's the biggest part of it is and when I took over and assessed the buildings when I was the chief newly, I was we got to get envelopes around these buildings, right? As long as the water's not coming in, that's a good thing. Then we can start assessing the other problems um around that, right? So, trying to replace appliances, trying to you know, the simple things. So many of these firehouses were built before we had females on the fire department, right? I mean, that's that's a fact. now our increase we've we've tripled the amount of females we have in the department um in the last 10 years to that point you know we want to make sure we're inclusive to all bathrooms and things like that that but there are expenses that go along with that so I think we've been looking um we we had a plan um prior to 2023 to replace a number of bathrooms and stalls and make them more um gender specific or genderneutral or whatever like just to make it so actually it just enclosed, right? Um and and we've been able to do that on our own but make it a cleaner, nicer environment. Um obviously some

things happened back then and that money went away. Um and we all know what that was attributed to. Unfortunately, we had a great plan. Dr. Claxton was on board. We had we had some big moves we're going to make and it and it obviously it couldn't happen after that. Um, we have been replacing appliances, things of that nature. But there are some, you know, structurally the bones are good, but window replacements, things like that in old buildings are difficult, right? That's, you know, you're taking buildings that were built in the turn of the century. Now they're a little crooked. You can't fit the same type of square window into or rectangle window into those anymore. So, it is a challenge. Working with the with the public properties folks has has been has been um has been has been easy to work with. It's just they have to they're they're not working with a blank canvas, right? You know, you have some very skilled individuals that work in public properties and they walk in and they have to they really have to put their skills to use because they're not working with a blank canvas. You know, it's easy in the new public safety building. We can go replace anything in there. Everything's level and square and all that stuff, but we're not going to have problems with that building hopefully for a number of years. The ones we're having the problems with are the ones that aren't understood. I appreciate that. Um, just lastly, and you just brought it up, the public safety complex. Uh you you briefly stated that the uh fire alarm has made it over. Uh what what about station one totally? Where where are we in the the the complete transfer of station one over?

So it's funny. Uh Deputy Chief Gallagghan when I took over as chief, I knew I would be able to stay at the 30,000 foot view cuz I was I was really working on it when Chief Williams was still here. Um I brought Deputy Chief Gallagan in who's done an incredible job in the weeds every day checking on everything. I I'll tell you, I've told him before he should become an owners project manager when he one day retires because he is Johnny on the spot. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree there. If you know where I'm coming from, he is on point to that point. We had a conversation this morning about this cuz we we're we're we're getting the word that the two-way traffic is coming almost to be ready. And that's really the crux of why they haven't moved in. I we and that brings me to another whole point that we could discuss, but I know you have another meeting after this. Once the 2-way is ready to go, we feel very comfortable that we'll be able to move everyone in. Um, we're we're we're all the appliances are operating. We've tested everything. There's a commu some communications things. We're working with one of our contractors right now to make sure the communication is going to every other station, but in that station because it's so new, we have to put the newer system into the station side. We're working on that with our contractor to make our separate outside contractor to get that done. So, we feel as though within the month we should be we should be settled in. We we do feel that way and speaking with um still Shaden Smith, the representative from Suffach that's still on site that's working with us every day. He's pretty confident that about as well about that as well. To the point of the two-way traffic, I've been in some conversations with with with Mayor Rodriguez. Um he he picked up on something that I said at a council meeting when he was still in the council about one area of our city that our longest response times and why we needed that two-way traffic on Warren Avenue. Even still with that two-way traffic, if you go from say Tory Street up to Oak Street Extension and anything west and north of say Pleasant Street um and and

that area, those are our longest response times in the city. Um and think about it, that's building up. If we look at the overlay plan around the Good Samaritan, I'm I'm sorry, BMC South um and and what could potentially be up there and the potential for that area. We're really looking to see um and I I've spoken to the mayor a number of times. We really in the future should be putting sooner than later a firehouse up in that area on the North Pearl Street area. Our response times if you look at the city and you cut out if you look at a big picture of the city and you put out the fire stations that the way the city is topheavy, right? The way the ge geography of it works. Kerry Hill has a firehouse. When they built Brookfield and that all the neighborhoods up there in Ashefield, when they began to build west of West Street, nothing happened up basically where the fire museum is now, right? And and that would be a perfect location to cut down those response times up in that area. We're handling them within our NFPA times. Um 2-way traffic, we would if we didn't have two traffic, that never would have happened. But it is a stretch. 4:00 on a 4:00 on a on an afternoon going down trying to get down Pleasant Street is not is not easy. So those numbers do bleed over a little bit.

Now lastly, what about your office uh as the headquarters? Are you over there?

I am. I'm there now. Um I've been there. I moved over when fire prevention and um the training division moved over. We ran out the the drill school that we just graduated was the first drill school to run out of that classroom. Worked out perfectly because we added a lot of training stuff. One of one of the funny things about having two guys that have worked for the Mass Fire Academy and ran drill schools for years, myself and Deputy Chief Gallagghan. It was interesting to have us build, you know, going over the plans we're building. We're trying to build all this stuff in the training props into the building when we were doing it. So, when you have a chance, I'd love to have you come over and take a look at the way we're going to be able to train firefighters in the future with the stuff we have versus how we had to kind of piece it together before. It really is pretty awesome. So, I am there. Um, we've been I've been working out of there now since since January. My old office because of some valued engineering early on, we had to move some stuff out. the signal division folks that are under the fire alarm building, they will be moving to we're going to make we're making my old office into a shop over at 560 West Street and they will be moving over to there and working out of there.

Great. So, well, again, I appreciate the report. I appreciate your efforts and your leadership of the Brockton Fire Department and uh thank you for being here this evening. Thank And if I can just say I I appreciate the support of the council every day and the mayor and and and you really you don't you have no idea how how fortunate I feel because I talk to chiefs throughout the Commonwealth and they don't have this type of relationship to be able to have conversations real in-depth conversations about where we're going, what we're doing, and how we're getting there. I appreciate it to the men and women of the Brockton Fire Department. They're here for you every day. And I I say it all the time. I have the front row seat for the greatest work ever seen. So they they they they accept the calling and do the job every day and I appreciate you. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Chief.

Uh Director uh Delis.

Good evening, sir. Good evening, counselors.

Thank you for being here this evening. Uh the floor is yours. So, I come before uh the public safety committee tonight to uh discuss the annual kennel license report. So, in accordance with city ordinance 3-21B, uh we're required to do uh by annual kennel inspections. And our kennel inspections cover the uh the maintenance, humane, and sanitary conditions of uh the uh animals and the uh facilities. Uh we also check to make sure the uh records are properly kept by the owner or the keeper of the kennel. Currently we have three holders of kennel licenses in the city. So I'll just go over with you the uh last inspections we did if that's all right. So uh on January 29th, the first one is JM Pet Resort down on Pearl Street. Uh on January 29th, a kennel inspection was conducted by animal control officer Darren Hand accompanied by the owner Jenny Mather. The current lo location was established in 2009 and operates under a commercial kennel license. The business includes dog training, daycare, grooming, boarding, a retail store, and a veterinarian clinic. During the inspection, 408 dogs were present along with 72 of the 150 employees working. All animals were observed to be kept in a humane manner. Housing areas were organized and sanitary with only minimal amount of debris present. Ade adequate measures were in place to mitigate noise and odors. Records appeared to be well-kept, accurate, and organized. The business also has a detailed plan in the event of an emergency evacuation. The animals conditions and facility are in

good order and the cat kennel uh passed inspection. The second one is going to be the animal protection center of southeastern Massachusetts located on West Elm Street Extension right on the eastern line. On February 3rd, 2026, a kennel inspection was conducted by animal control officer Darren Hand, accompanied by the shelter director, Kim Heis. The current location was established in 1995 by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. In 2009, the ownership transferred to the Animal Protection Center and operates under a domestic charitable corporation kennel license. The shelter is an open admissions facility accepting all types of animals. Additional services include adoptions, humane education, outreach, and cruelty prevention, serving the residents of Plymouth, Northfor, and Bristol counties. During the inspection, 16 dogs, 36 cats, 13 guinea pigs, three rabbits, and two parakeetses were present. The facility employs seven full-time, three part-time, and up to 90 volunteers. The size of the building's interior and exterior appear sufficient to support the animals and staff. All areas were were found to be clean, organized, and contain little to no debris. Adequate measures are in place to mitigate noise and odors. The animals were found to be well-kept and supervised. Records were found to be accurate and organized. We did find one minor violation of um the sale of dogs under 3-16 of our city code kennel licenses. Uh all holders of kennel licenses are required to notify the animal control department in writing

of the sale of uh dog uh dogs and pup puppies, including a description of um who they're adopted to, description of the animal. um we got them back on track with education compliance. A matter of fact, two weeks ago, they sent over um a list uh covering all of last year and also the first three months of this year, which we forwarded that list over to the elections commission office to u cross reference it with a dog license list to send out notices to uh people that needed that to um for them to take care of that. Other than that, that uh passed. No violations. All right. The third kennel license is a uh personal kennel license that's held by Thomas and Shaina Donahghue of Michelle Lane. Uh on February 2nd, 2026, a kennel inspection was conducted by animal control officer Darren Hand, accompanied by Thomas and Shaina Donahghue. The Donahghue have a personal kennel license allowing for six dogs. They are now down to five. During the inspection, the animals were observed to be healthy and living in humane conditions. The dogs have adequate room inside and outside with the residence and exterior being free of debris. Uh medical records for rabbi vaccines were shown to us. All uh dogs at that time were current with their rabbi vaccination uh rabbi vaccinations. um the conditions and the home are in good order as well as the uh the uh animals in that kennel past inspection. So that completes the uh animal kennel license report and I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have.

Uh thank you Director Duchellis. Uh councelor Azac. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Um good evening director Duchellis. Good evening. Thank you for the presentation. Couple of questions. So is that all we have in the city are these three kennels or this is just what you've

Yes, this is all we have for licensed kennels. We have had others over the years mostly personal account uh kennels and they've either moved out of the city or they've gotten down below um and over if you have over four adult dogs, you're required to obtain a kennel license. So, a lot of those people that had them, they got their numbers down and they just went with um regular dog licenses.

Okay. That's that's why I'm asking. I know I've been here uh during zoning meetings where they have come in, you know, people who have um kennels in like residential areas who have a certain number of dogs and they've come before us. So, I'm happy to hear you're keeping track of them so you know if that you somebody follows up to make sure that they're no longer or

Yes, we do that as well as we do proactive measures when when we have adequate staffing levels, which you I'm sure you all know what our department's dealing with with staffing issues. Um, a few years ago, one of my staff members went over uh, and I'm not a computer person, so but that went over the Rover app, if you're familiar with it, where people we found there were people in the city that were doing um, doggy daycare. Yes.

So, we went out, we investigated those, we issued cease and desist orders. We went back to make sure they were in compliance. And um we had one pop up a couple of days ago that we went and investigated. Um it was somebody that experienced a situation, but the situation was 6 months ago and they just waited till now to to make a report on it. And we found that person had no animals. they were no longer um doing uh basically they were that one I believe was a uh breeding breeding type operation and they had no dogs when we investigated that. We have another one that surfaced about a week to two weeks ago where somebody was boarding animals at their house for a fee. We're in the process of issuing a cease and dis desist order on that one right now. So, um we're doing our best to do proactive enforcement, but right now it's a little difficult with the um the staffing shortage we're experiencing. But any complaint we do receive, we do go out and investigate those complaints.

So, most of the complaints I'm figuring coming from neighbors, that's how you find out about some of these um some of the issue. Somebody's boarding or has a daycare, that's how you're finding out. Yes, we had um we had one that comes to mind a few years ago and those people are just recently sold their home and moving out of the city and out of the state, but we had a problem, a significant problem up on Royal Road with somebody that was operating a um like a doggy daycare business, a training business that in involved the uh inspectional services unit. The law department got involved. Court action um was taken on that one. So, we we do our best to stay on top of these and um we take enforcement action when when necessary. I mean, we always try to start off with with education and compliance. That's always our first goal. And some people are receptive to that. When they're not, then we we move on to enforcement.

Oh, that's great to hear because a lot of times residents people aren't aware of the laws. They don't know that they're even doing anything wrong. So, I'm happy to hear that, you know, education first and then, you know, if they're not um you know, if they're not cooperative, then you move forward with the enforcement. I'm also So, I'm figuring with inspectional services, it's the uh health inspector who who's who helps which inspector goes out to um something like that to a kennel or doggy daycare. Um, in the past it's I I don't know if it's been I mean there's been times we've involved the animal inspector, but on something like this it would be more um I believe one of the code enforcement officers would step in, but I'm I'm not 100% on which uh person uh what title they have that gets involved.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Uh thank you, Councelor Farwell. just we don't have time tonight but Mr. Dillis or Director Dillis is modest that the the animal control department does so much more rescuing pets when there's a fire. Uh responding to police calls where the officers have to enter a building and there might be a dangerous animal. Reuniting lost pets with children whose heart is broken because they think their pet is gone forever. Helping animals who were injured. Um, you you're very modest in your presentation, but if people had a full understanding of what goes on in this city 365 days a year, um, frankly, I wish we had more coverage. Uh, I actually saw a stray in Keith Park one Sunday and we don't have people on at six o'clock at night. So, um, I appreciate what you do. I hope at some point we will be able to add staffing and expand the hours of coverage and to the extent that we help animals, I think that reflects well upon our community. So, thank you very much.

All right. Thank you, councelor. And I'll pass that along to the uh the staff as well. Your appreciation. Please do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Uh thank you, councelor. Um starting off, uh thank you uh director Chuchellis uh for uh the work that you do with the animal control. uh you know we as uh councelor Farwell said it's not just dealing with uh kennels and stuff like to that effect but you your job incorporates and encompasses a lot of a lot of um issues that you know that are not well known and so the the fact that you're able to do that with your current staffing levels is is you know a testament to your leadership. Um I want to we'll we can talk staffing and we can talk buildings maybe at budget um when those will be a little more uh relevant to the conversation. But the one thing I do want to talk about is chicken coops. Um, can you kind of give us a brief update on the status of the chicken coops in Brockton? Um, maybe just kind of familiarize uh the council and the public. uh what you know what's authorized under our uh coupe um ordinances and you know are you guys do you also uh inspect the coups and and what are you what are you seeing generally in the city of Brockton as it regards to chicken coupoops

um the animal inspector for the health department would be better served to answer that question that falls under that position's um authority we don't get involved in that we assist the animal inspector with certain aspects of it. Say there was livestock that was um roaming at large, we would get involved in that. But as far as going out and doing inspections, things of that nature, uh the animal um the animal fowl regulation under the health department, the animal control department, our staff, we don't have the authority to investigate or enforce that.

Okay. Understood. I thought Okay, I must be mistaken. I thought that was under uh your purview. Did Did that I know when we created ISD I I thought that officer remained under your uh direction. Was the animal inspector has never been under the um animal control department. It's always been under the health department. Okay, understood. Well, I appreciate that. Um councelor, there's uh no more questions. Um thank you for your time this evening and uh we always appreciate uh your assistance and and uh your report. Thank you, sir. Thank you, councils. Have a wonderful evening. All right. Thank you. So, councilors, uh, that's the end of our agenda this evening. Um, motion. Yep. If, uh, don't we need to recommend it favorably? Correct.

Motion to recommend favorably, uh, back to the full city council. Second. Uh, motion has been made and properly seconded uh, to recommend this resolve favorably. All in favor? Anyone opposed? Uh, the order is recommended favorably. Uh, mot uh, can I entertain a motion to adjurnn? Motion to adjurnn. Second. Motion is made ajourned. All in favor? Anyone opposed? This meeting is adjourned. Thank you everyone. Thank you.

Good evening. I hereby call the um Brockton City Council's Ordinance Committee for Tuesday, May 5th at 7:15 p.m. to order. The ordinance committee is made up of councelor Thompson, councelor Niccastro, councel Griffin, councelor Texera, and myself, um, Shirley Asac. With that being said, we will begin with our first item. Madame clerk. Item number one, ordinance. An ordinance banning the manufacturing, sale, and distribution of catam in the city of Brockton. Invited to attend police chief Perez or her designate. Inspectional services, William Fores, or his designate. Thank you. You mind if I start this way?

Um, sure. Council, did you How about you go in front? That's easier. Thank you, councelor.

Councelor Thompson. Thank you, Madam Chair, and uh good evening uh everyone uh members of the uh ordinance committee. So before us this evening uh our agenda item number one is the prohibition um of manufacturing and sale distribution of que in the city of Brockton. And so over uh the past couple months, I've been working with the uh chief of police, Brockton Police Department um and uh the board of health and um we've identified the the substance of cuto substance in the city of Brockton and we see that it's readily available uh at gas stations with no age restrictions and uh high doses of u a synthetic Cryoam that that's really causing a lot of problems. Um it's basically a gateway drug uh to opioid abuse. Uh the synthetic version of crytoum um has uh opioid uh like substances in it and that the plant extract itself uh has been found to be anywhere from you know 13 to 22% higher uh than its natural form. And I think it's important uh for the this council, the members of the ordinance committee uh to identify products that are causing harm uh to our residents and um try to prohibit uh the manufacturing and the distribution uh um in the city of Brockton. And this is not an issue that's just affecting Brockton. This is becoming a uh uh nationwide issue. Uh I've talked to people actually from all over the country uh regarding this matter and and it's becoming a scourge. It's it's another gateway drug and it's uh really affecting uh the children and adults in

the nation uh to the point where the FDA uh is uh basically almost imminently uh looking to classify uh the artificial and synthetic fatum as a schedule one drug. And so um the the nation is starting to wake up uh to this product. uh multiple uh municipalities have already passed bans uh on the product and uh I think the city of Brockton should also be uh on the forefront of the fight against synthetic cretam and uh you know this product and so this this ordinance has kind of evolved uh over over time now and I've learned a lot over the process of what Crettom is and what Crettom is not and So, uh, originally this ordinance was drafted as a complete ban of the substance of cryto, but in my kind of learning more and more about the the the product and the substance is that cryum is kind of being used as a blanket term uh for synthetic crypto and uh other products that have uh synthetic alkyoid substances in it that are harmful. and that cret itself uh the natural leaf uh that's kind of been in use in the city, excuse me, in uh the United States since the 1970s. Uh research is showing that it does have some positive benefits uh for people who have chronic pain um and people who are uh looking to wean off uh opioids. And so there is some beneficial use to the natural lowd dose crytoum leaf. And so over what I'd like to do is just begin a discussion on uh this product and it's

uh the the ban uh and this for sales in the city of Brockton. But I think what I've learned uh over the last uh few weeks and and recently because I I have been speaking to a lot of people uh on this matter uh especially um I've presented a document um to the members of the uh committee along with uh people in the audience uh from the international plant and herbal alliance. Um I've spoken with members of this alliance. have also spoken uh to uh members of the uh CTOM global alliance uh that is a uh advocacy group for the natural crytoum and uh dis you know speaks to the benefits of of a natural uh you know natural product. So, I'm hoping that our discussion uh can differentiate uh between uh the natural substance and the artificial uh synthetic substance. And I've been working with our legislative council uh on an amended draft uh that that does a few things. And the draft is really not ready yet. Uh but the draft does a few things. Number one, what it does is it it it recognizes synthetic crytoum and the ingredients involved in synthetic crytoum and definitionally lays out what those ingredients are. Um, and the doses in which those ingredients, you know, in which the cutoum is present uh in that product. And we are looking to for a complete ban of synthetic artificial crowum in the city of Brockton. And when we go around to the different um uh gas stations and see the products that they have uh on their shelves, uh the vast

vast majority 99.99% of the product that they have on their shelves uh is this artificial synthetic crytoum uh that we should completely ban in the city of Brockton. We've also identified what is natural crytoum and in the percentages uh in which that uh uh cryto is is present in the product. And so generally uh the USDA uh and some of these uh studies that I've been reading show that a 2% um a 2% concentration of ptoum in a product is uh safe. And so, uh, I'm looking at also, uh, with our ordinance not having a 100% ban on the word cryoam because I believe when we when we use the word, it encompasses a lot of different products and and maybe we should differentiate between natural quoam in low dose that does have some uh medicinal benefits. Um and what we would do with with that product is number one create an age restriction for it 21 or over uh to um purchase uh the natural lowd dose cutoum. Secondly, if it if it is being sold, this would be a behind the counter product. Uh it would not be uh forward- facing in any store. uh you would have to uh speak with the clerk and the and and it would be stored behind the counter with uh not easy access to anybody under the age of 21. Uh thirdly, it would be uh in packaging that is not uh what we call uh child attractive. So no cartoons, no, you know um uh no kind of colorful uh packaging in which it

would be attractive uh to a child uh to acquire. And then the the fourth uh the fourth um thing we're looking at is is the consideration of making this a permitted substance. Meaning uh just like tobacco, just like uh alcohol or even marijuana, uh that we would require um a a uh license or a permit uh to sell the product. Uh I think that would give the city of Brockton a little bit more control over the product. uh who's selling it, where it's being sold, and so I think that should also be in consideration um in this discussion of whether we should make it a uh product uh which requires the permit for sale. Now, I'm hoping uh that everybody can take a look at the document uh from the International Plant and Herbal Alliance that I passed out. I think that uh it's an easy read and it it kind of explains the difference between what the natur uh the national or natural version is uh compared to the synthetic. Uh, additionally, I've also provided uh a cretone consumer protection act uh product compliance checklist. And I think this is a a document that uh once we determine what we allow uh would would uh be a good document in which our inspectional services uh Brockton PD or the board of health uh could use whenever they uh go to a gas station or uh any other retail location and uh check the product on the shelf against this checklist. Um I think it it it's pretty clear. Um, it's it's readable and it's and and it it's it's kind of a step by step. If it contains this, then then flag it, remove it. If it if it's as it says, if it's in vape uh e-liquid or inhale inhalable format, remove it. If it's injectable, remove it. Um, if it if

the name of the uh uh package uh mimics opioids, uh, you know, then remove it. And so I I think that might be a good uh guideline for uh proh product compliance in the city of Brockton. And so that's basically where I am. I know this is going to be an evolving uh uh an evolving uh process. I want to make sure that we're not throwing out the baby with the bath water. uh because I've really received and I know some of you have have uh received some um uh testimonials uh from residents uh both in the city of Brockton and around the country that attest to um the the you know attest to the help uh that natural lowd dose qutoum uh offers them and I want to make sure that uh that we differentiate between the natural lowd dose that does have some municipal benefits uh compared to the highdosese artificial uh alkaloid uh based substances that are really being a scourge on the city of Brockton and nationwide. Uh with that, I'm going to see if uh we have other invited guests that would like to uh speak on this. I know um uh Wad Asia, I think you wanted to speak on this issue. Um Chief Perez, I know you wanted to speak on this issue. And so I just kind of want to bring up uh some of our colleagues that uh also been working on this matter and uh have something to share.

Thank you counselor. So as you mentioned we we did get bombarded I believe just this afternoon by a lot of um information. Honestly I hadn't heard of before it became uh it was on our agenda and um and today it seems like a lot of information's come up. So thank you counselor. Um, I'm sure if uh Chief Perez, did you just want to comment on

So, Chief Perez, Inspection of Inspector, counselors. Um, I just really wanted to say that we support the banning of synthetic uh, cratom. This is highly addictive and is known as the gas station heroin. So I fully support and we fully support the ban of synthetic crayon.

Good evening um committee members. I am James Ducet. I am the chief of inspectional services for the city. In this role I'm responsible for a great deal of enforcement in the city. Um currently tobacco enforcement certainly um as our other colleagues in my department. Indeed we do see these products. They're very ubiquitous in our city. They're present in settings where tobacco permits are held. They're present in liquor stores and convenience stores and in other settings as well. Um I leave it to the clinical public health um agents in terms of what should be banned, whether it be synthetic or um naturally occurring um ingredients. Um, but I would only add this that in our inspections when we're finding product that is banned in almost all cases with ve very little exception we are met with the assertion that that product is present in these facilities for personal consumption of the staff members or the proprietors there. So what I I would ask that we consider adding language to say that where a banned product is kept, held, stored, possessed, then a violation is occurring. Whether we observe a sale being made or not, simply if it is present ultimately, whatever we decide to do in terms of regulation, the presence of it alone would be considered a violation.

Okay. Um, so quick question. Counselor, do you want maybe to have questions and then we'll go back or ask the director of Yeah. Okay. Um, thank you. Thank you. Our director of health and human services.

Good evening.

Good evening everyone. Thank you for having me. Um, thank you Jeff for um your description and uh distinguishing between synthetic and natural. Um, I understand also that there are a number of bills currently um going through Massachusetts legislation um around this trying to figure out if we're going to completely ban it or if we're going to distinguish between natural and um the synthetic versions of uh this uh product. Um my concern is that um these along with a bunch of other you know highly addictive substances are floating around our community in our gas stations at our convenience stores, liquor stores. Um and they often change. They come with different wrapping, different presentation. I feel if we go forward with banning the synthetic and allowing the natural that that packaging will change to mimic a natural uh type of craton. And if we are if this is not FDA approved and we can't tell what's on that what's within that actual package, there's nothing written on a package about the um what's within it was actually uh consisting in that uh particular product. Um I fear that we're still going to have this problem. Um I think if we do go forward with the ban it may be temporary because the state will require certain parameters to distinguish between natural and synthetic crayon. I don't think we have the um human capacity or the ability to tell the difference because we can't

monitor what's coming in and out of our community. Um, so I I honestly feel we should go forward with a full ban for now and wait to see what the state says and then revise our um our ordinance. For instance, there is an ordinance that was um approved for Northampton which goes beyond just cratom. Um it bans all cratom both natural and synthetic synthetically derived THC as well as unre unregulated novel intoxicating products. I feel that there's so many different products um that may not contain cratom but they are equally as addictive that are existing within our community and they pop up and change frequently. I think if we really want to get a handle on this for now we could go with a full ban on all of these different types of products regardless of the name slapped on them um to make sure that when we see it we know that this is not supposed to be here. This is banned. Why is it here? and we're given the the you know the proper fines for that. So that's my suggestion. I could also provide an example of the Northampton um ordinance. I provide that to you so you could view that as well. Um also within the ordinance that as it's written the fine structure is um is like a state fine structure because this is not currently a state law. Uh there's no state law banning or um you know distinguishing between natural and synthetic. We can't fine over $1,000. So as a board of health, health and human services, we can't find over $1,000 at all. So that'll be we could max out at $1,000 for each um violation. That's fine. But we can't do the 1,000 2,000 5,000 fine structure.

Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. So, um, yeah, I would I think that would be great if we can get a copy of the Northampton. Um, no problem. Ordinance. So, I'm just I'm trying to understand this before we move on to question. So, is I know councelor Thompson said that, you know, we would um eventually put an age, you know, that this can't be sold for um to anybody under 21. So, is it being sold to anyone? Yeah. This is great. Kids are buying it. Yes. Okay. It's packaged for kids.

They have cartoon characters on them, different colors. It's target just like with tobacco and vaping. It's all targeted towards kids because the the point is to hook them early so they have lifetime customers. But with tobacco, there isn't I mean we're supposed to be regulated, right? It's supposed to be regulated, but it still pops up in these stores. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Counselors. Um do you have questions? Council Griffin. Good evening, Commissioner. Um, obviously the synthetic cratom is a scourge of society and you know as a city we have enough drug people walking around our downtown. They don't need anymore.

But the natural side of this um I find interesting. I received two or three emails and a very compelling phone call this afternoon from a resident who is in favor of the natural cratom said it helped them get away from a sports injury where they were depending on opioids was able to get them off that and felt that without that ability to use theratom they may continue down that spiral of opioid abuse and addiction. So I I know you spoke earlier about having a complete ban in this. Um I'd like to hear more about the medical side, the natural side. I mean what is your experience with it? Is it therapeutic? These people

obviously said they were especially the phone call, right? It was very compelling. It was very sincere as were the emails. So I just want to kind of get a handle on natural side of it. The synthetic I think I don't think there'd be anybody here disagreeing with banning that. But the natural part of it, I don't know that much about it to be perfectly honest with you, but I am curious to see what it's all about. And um this person spoke very very highly of it. So I know it's not scheduled at all. It's not a scheduled drug at all. Yeah. That's part of the problem I believe. Right.

Exactly. I fear because it's currently unregulated that they could subject themselves to you know having cratom that is not the natural version but is marketed as natural. So that's what I fear honestly. Um, and I feel like if we get more instruction from the state, if they, you know, uh, require certain packaging, certain, uh, language on a package, it'll be easier for us to distinguish between natural and synthetic. We can't do that right now because we we're we don't have that type of power, right?

It's unregulated. So, I feel like if there's a complete ban, there are bills like I mentioned in the state right now that are being um discussed around this, different versions of it. Um but I feel like we need more um more information from the state in order for us to move forward with an ordinance that is equitable, right? it provides a a way for people who do need it um to use it because I do agree like it if it's helping you then yes we should figure out a way to to figure it out but I don't think we're at that we're at that point right now okay well thank you commissioner

counc evening commissioner I'm so glad you're here I mentioned to councelor Thompson that I would want to know what you thought because the current version of the ordinance um you your department figures prominently in it. So I'm glad you were here to appine. And as I read this this afternoon and listened to councelor Thompson as well, all I can think of is who is going to enforce this? Who's going to go out to all these places? And this is a big a big endeavor to distinguish between synthetic and natural and and percentages and all that stuff. Do we really have the force to do that?

And then, you know, we go through all of this and then we get preempted by the state or even by the feds. Um I I kind of like your idea of banning it for now. um with the idea that it that ban would probably get preempted by the state in some fashion or at least their work will result in better packaging which will make it easier for us to figure out what's what. Exactly. That's why I agree. Thank you. All set counselor. Any other questions? Councilors. Councelor Tera. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Commission. Is this been approved by FDA? No. No. So I approved unregulated

unregulated. Okay, that's all I need to know. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Council Thompson. Um, thank you. Um, Madame Commissioner, um, your perspective, you know, that that was my original perspective. Then then I started uh hearing from other people that, you know, kind of uh was was saying, "Hey, wait a minute.

It's not all that. It's there there is, you know, medicinal benefits." And as U. Councelor Griffin said some of it was quite compelling. um that you know I and I I talked to many people uh some of them you know I was getting a lot of calls today and uh a lot of people were kind of uh reiterating uh that type of um anecdotal story that that you know they were in they were injured or some receive some other injury uh that uh that cretone was a safer alternative to opioids and that you know they've been using the product for an extended period of time and it's been a god send to them. But I also understand uh the point of how do we tell how do we differentiate between the natural and the synthetic? As you said, if they're able to manipulate packaging, then what would we have to do? Open up the package and then test it. And then what what you know what what testing apparatus do we have to even test it? Um, so

and and the reason why I'm I'm hopeful that there is going to be some movement on this very soon from the state is because I know that there are bills currently in the state that are being uh discussed. So even if we do go for a full ban, I don't think it will last for a long time because this is a an issue across the entire state. All municipalities are discussing this and trying to figure out what they're going to do. Um, most are just completely banning it until they hear from the state. Um, because that's just the the best that they could do. Um, especially with, you know, cuts to funding, cuts to staff. Um, they just don't have the manpower to to regulate it on their own.

No. And that's understandable. Um, and speaking with uh different people, uh, my understanding is that the FB at the FDA uh or the Yeah. They're in charge. They they make the scheduling, right? Yeah. that the FDA is uh probably imminently um looking to uh det uh basically what's the word uh uh identify the synthetic as a schedule one substance and completely ban it. Um so maybe the feds will also help us by uh weighing in on this matter. Um when it comes to enforcement, I think if I could ask uh um uh Jim uh Mr. that are set uh to come back up and even uh maybe uh a member of the Brockton Police Department that if if we were to move forward with a complete and total ban um how would we execute enforcement of that ban?

Yes, certainly. Um in my opinion, I think we do have the strength to execute such a ban. It would be done with s systematic inspections as as we do with tobacco and other products. Now, would would we kind of like how we did with uh we had a gas station ban where uh uh nobody could fill up a uh UT uh um motorcycle or not a motorcycle, a dirt bike or ATV, that's the word. Uh they couldn't uh and but we put in a kind of a time frame in which we would notify gas stations first uh that this uh ordinance is now in effect, kind of give them some time to comply. Would it be expected we would do the same thing here?

I think it would be reasonable. Yeah, for a few reasons. The period of not notification, also a period of time to allow them to sell down the stock that they have on hand. I think would be reasonable. I'd hope that time period is not that long. I I don't think I don't sense that it would have to be very long. Okay. Um, Lieutenant Shiman, if you could weigh in on enforcement as well. Absolutely. Uh, Mr. Ducet and I have been out uh worked in uh as a team in the past uh daytime, nighttime. Uh he's been kind enough to stay late on a couple occasions. We've been successful at going into different locations uh and addressing some of the

items that they're not allowed to sell. Uh I know he has wrote some written some big fines uh related to that. Repeat offenders a lot of times. So been very successful with that. Okay. Um and legislative counsel uh could you speak to the fine issue? uh commissioner brought up the issue that that we were unable to uh schedule the fines as as stated. It's what what's your feedback on that? What is in there was just copy and paste from the depac the tobacco um fines. Those are statements, correct? That's where we got that form from.

Okay. So, um would we have to amend uh that the the fines? What about what about the um restriction of permit or the the mention something about that too? If I can please come up to the microphone. Commissioner, so the fines were uh you said our max fine is $1,000 under the statute. Uh what about uh addressing uh licenses, right? Preventing them from uh further operating if they're uh in multiple violations.

Yeah, that's fine. U so in the ordinance is you have specifically tobacco licenses or permits there. These may be sold at liquor store that may not have a tobacco license. So, what I suggest is just board of health permits in general. So, any board of health permit because you may this may be sold at um uh CVS. I'm just saying CVS cannot sell um tobacco by law, but they're selling this product. So, how are we going to weigh this person or this entity is selling this product and they have a tobacco license. So, we take their tobacco license and um give them a fine. This store is also selling this product. They don't have a tobacco license, but they have maybe another type of board of health permit.

So, it's not it's not equal. Right. So, you're saying that'd be more effective by by specifying any border health permit uh that that uh store may have would be revoked um uh on multiple violations. Yes. Um because stuff is sold everywhere. We can make that amendment. Um Madame, that's also similar to the Northampton ordinance as well. They don't state tobacco permit. They state board of health permit, which I think is more equitable.

All right. Thank you for that, counselor. I'm I'm kind of really interested in uh your feedback on this. Um do you believe that a total ban is appropriate uh with the um with the amendment to say the uh fining uh schedule uh that we would max fine at 1,000 uh per violation. I believe uh the ordinance says that after the second violation uh permit uh permit suspension, third violation, permit revocation, if we amended that to uh any board of health permit that they may have, uh both second offense is a suspension, third offense is a termination. Um really interested in your feedback on on that issue. questions right now. Who's coming before the board of health for per I mean they don't not all these convenience stores come for permits to the board of health. There's only certain certain ones.

Generally all of them are selling food for instance and they require a food permit as an example. This would be one type of of permit issued by the inspectional services but vested through the authority of the board of health or the health commission. So you inspectional services and border health are working together on this? Certainly. Yes. What what type of permit would a a typical gas station have that's uh border health related? Yep. They're definitely going to have food permits. They're going to have milk permits. They'll have a dumpster permit. They had may have a wood and methyl alcohol permit. And very commonly they'll have a tobacco permit. Tobacco. Okay.

Counselors just feedback. Um sorry. Sorry. Sure. Counselor um any questions comments towards um councelor Thompson's I'd like to stay councelor Griffin

councelor Thompson bringing this forward. This is a very important issue. But I have no problem complete ban synthetic. It's garbage. No question about this. But the natural stuff I got to admit I have to pause because of the emails and the calls I received. Um it it appears to be very therapeutic to people. I think the natural cradle could be in a state that marijuana was back 10, 15 years ago and now it's medically controlled. I think the federal government, if they scheduled this, would be able to maybe have it at a medical marijuana dispensary where it could be pure and and good product for the people who want to use it and need it. So, I I have no problem with the synthetic banning it, the natural. I I'm I just want to get more information. I agree with you, council, but from what I'm hearing, it's we're going to we're going to have a hard time figuring out what's synthetic and what's natural. So, I think that's where our problem is. And I'd hate to go I I'm concerned that this is being sold without any type of permits right now or to anybody. So, I'm concerned about that, but I'm also, you know, I think if we ban it, we're going to it's people are going to be in an uproar as well. So

it would be good if the federal government would step in, schedule it, wherever it's going to be. Then we could reg it would be regulated and I think it probably could be piggy tailed right over to like the medical marijuana sold right out of there with control for potency and quality and I think that would solve a lot of our problems. But at our level obviously it's above our pay grade. We can't do that.

And that's why I think the uh commissioner's um position I I think is more a clear position. Uh I I think you know we're not the state. We're not the feds. So, uh I believe if anybody absolutely needs it, they can go to another community and and get it. Um but since Brockton, you know, Brockton's an urban community, um and it seems like these products are are heavily uh advertised or or um pushed on to Brockton stores. Um I I think we should act. Um, and I do get your point regarding the natural substance because I I've been researching a lot of that myself uh over the last uh week or so. Um, but enforcement would be difficult. And I think if we um if we kind of tiptoe around it and and maybe make uh you know some exceptions, then the people who really are are making money off it may be able to game the system. and um and then our ordinance and our desire to protect our kids and our adults um you know would not be effective and and would not happen. So I think if we potentially move forward with it as drafted uh with those um amendments regarding uh the penalty phase um at least we could then you obviously there's going to be multiple readings of this. if uh you know we learned something between now and then uh maybe we could kick it back uh to the ordinance committee to discuss that. Um we're just a city. Uh this is not a nationwide or statewide prohibition. I think if people um the people who find uh benefits from this product that most of them are ordering it online anyways. And so um you know I just think that there are other alternatives to for somebody who see uses it medically. Um they have other avenues to acquire it than walking into

a convenience store or gas station in the city of Brockton and purchasing it. Jelly Ka Castra. Thank you. Well, you've given us some good bedtime reading and I would have a hard time approving an ordinance that I recommending in favorably that I'm not reading. So, I'm not ready to approve something regardless of whether it's a ban or not. I want to see the amended document. I I think that's fair. Well, the there would be no amended the the one that's presented would be the one we'd be voting on. the only amendment would be the penalty matter.

Okay. Well, I'd still like to see that and I'd like to read all of this. Um, and I also want to speak to our delegation to find out what is going on at the state house level and I think that would be of benefit to all of us before we make a decision. I mean, do you want to Well, Madam Chair, uh, I understand that uh, are we having another ordinance committee meeting later this month or um, I was hoping to. So, well, we're hoping to Yes.

All right, then. Um I mean, I'm I'm fine with postponing this matter to the next city council, excuse me, the next uh ordinance committee meeting. Um but I'm hoping that uh it can be done relatively, you know, relatively soon and that all the counselors that um you know, need further information, uh you know, that we we find that information for you. Okay. So, is that in the form of a motion? Yeah, I I I motion to uh postpone this matter to the next ordinance committee meeting. Second.

Second. So, a motion's been made and properly seconded to postpone this till the next ordinance meeting. All those in favor? All those opposed? The matter passes. So, this will be postponed till the next ordinance meeting. And counselors, in the meantime, if you have questions, please reach out to the invited guest that spoke today or councelor Thompson so that way we can uh hopefully move it next uh meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Um Madame Clerk, thank you. Uh, thank you for all who spoke, madame clerk. Item number two.

Item number two, ordinance, an ordinance establishing regulation and penalties for needle exchange programs in the city of Brockton. Invited to attend. Director of social services, Jana Brad Jasmine Bradshere, Police Chief Perez, uh, Police Sergeant Michael Skinner, Police Lieutenant William Schleman. Thank you. Uh, Madame Director, do you want to start us off? You want to? Yeah. Go ahead. Councelor Thompson also sponsored this, so he's going to uh speak on it.

You want to make any statements? Yeah, sure. Sure. I'll I'll start off.

Uh thank you, Madam Chair, and again, uh good evening, members of the ordinance committee. Uh this is another uh ordinance uh that uh I've been working on along with the uh director of social services, our police chief uh and uh her team uh over at the uh Brockton Police Department. Uh included in these discussions were also uh the border health uh the director of border health and the um the prior um uh interm uh commissioner of health and human services. Uh, also, uh, Councelor Charnell was, uh, um, part of these discussions. And so, I've been trying to work, uh, and and Jasmine knows we've been trying to work on, uh, a needle ordinance in the city of Brockton for multiple years now. Uh, obviously, anybody who visits uh, downtown Brockton or, you know, even in their own neighborhood sees that uh, needles are a problem. Uh, they're discarded uh, throughout the city. Uh they're dangerous and um you know uh people people can be hurt uh by uh being stuck by a needle or even uh and you know can be injured or health-wise through uh you know uh substances on the needles or inside the uh inside the needle. So, and and the city of Brockton spends a lot of money um disposing of needles uh both manh hours uh both with our parks department, inspectional services, our police department, our social services department, hundreds of man hours uh cleaning the city of Brockton of needles and then uh not just cleaning up the needles, but the cost of disposing the needles. So that's also uh we we blew uh speaking with the board of health um I think we we were um allotted about $3,000 uh a year for the disposal of needles. Uh he was telling us that you know we're we're in the $10,000 12,000 spent in disposing of needles. And so

this is not just a safety issue, this is a uh a monetary issue uh both in manh hours and disposal costs. Um, and so working with the police department and with uh Jasmine and uh uh councelor Charnell, we're trying to draft an ordinance uh that is focused and what who it's focused on are the um the needle distributors. And so in the city of Brockton, I believe we have three three kind of needle distributors

um that are noties. Uh this ordinance would not um not uh encompass um retailarmacies or even uh the hospitals uh in the city of Brockton. Uh this is focused on those that uh distribute uh needles uh directly to uh those who um seek those needles in a uh exchange process. uh and also uh mobile uh needle providers and uh that you know that's one of the things that we're finding uh you know something that we really need to uh get a grip on is that these uh mobile providers they're they're driving up um within the vicinities of our schools. They're driving um within our parks. They're on um city property uh distributing needles uh to people who are seeking them. And then this is not you know this was always advertised as a one forone exchange. We all know that these are not one forone exchanges. Um you know they they distribute dozens even hundreds of needles and you don't have to uh exchange anything uh to receive those needles. Secondly, it's not just needles. It's also the you know the um paraphernalia that are used in uh intravenous um intravenous uh um injection. So, that's the the the wraparound cords, the little uh the the uh uh the wash uh what's that? The um uh you know, what's that called?

Alcohol.

The alcohol. Excuse me. The alcohol. Uh the the the spoons, everything. So, this is an issue for the city of Brockton and we're trying to address it effectively and uh appropriately. And so what this uh ordinance does number one is it defines what we're trying to prohibit. Um it defines what the drug paraphernalia is. It it it what what what are the facilities that distribute the needles um the containers that are involved in the collection of needles um and needle exchange programs uh which is the crux of the uh the the problem in the city of Brockton. uh the mobile exchange and um you know uh the operators of those mobile exchanges. And so uh what what we're doing is trying to number one is identify who we're trying to address or what we're trying to address. And then number two is uh restrict restrict the areas on which they can exchange these needles. And so one of the things that we talked about is uh no needles uh shall be exchanged or distributed or collected uh within 1,000 ft of any school park or on any city property. Um and then uh that's going to be measured from the property line uh to the distributor um and you know to the nearest school or or park. uh the needle exchange. Uh they should only distribute or collect uh needles and not all of the drug paraphernalia that is um that is uh incorporated in these exchanges. And that uh no uh operator uh will exchange shall knowingly uh distribute a needle to a person uh 18 years uh under the age of 18 years. Uh, one of the things that we're also trying to address uh, in this ordinance is data collection.

Now, we're not looking to violate any HIPPA laws. Uh, we're not looking for any uh, names or anything like that, any identifying information uh, from those who are participants in needle exchanges. But we want to know some certain information. We want to know how many participants are being served. Uh we want to know uh the number of needles that are being received. Uh the number of clean unused needles that are being distributed. We want to know um how many of the people that they are exchanging needles with. How many of those people are accepting services, right? So this is about helping people. And so um we're told that they go out and that they uh try to encourage people into rehab. how many people are actually receiving services during uh these needle exchange exchanges. Um also uh the needle exchange program is uh advertised as a program to help with the uh to prevent the um uh prevent the distribution or prevent the uh the spread excuse me of uh bloodborne illnesses. So this is AIDS, HIV, viral hepatitis or other uh bloodborne diseases. So how many people in these exchange programs are actually uh receiving these needles for that specific purpose for bloodborne illness purposes? We'd like to understand that better in the city of Brockton. And then lastly, demographic profiles. So, um, we're part of this needle exchange ordinance is requesting some data collection and that that data be turned over to the city so that we can better uh understand who this population is and how we can as a city help this population um and better understand who they are. And then uh lastly is penalties. Uh so uh this ordinance uh deres penalties uh

or or or establishes penalties uh for violations of this ordinance and uh those that violation is uh $500 for the first and each subsequent offense and that we consider that each day in violation is constitutes a separate offense. Um uh so all of this will be governed under our uh 21D program. Now that's the ordinance uh before you. We believe it's appropriate. We believe it's targeted. Uh we believe it's to um address the issues uh that we you know that Brockton is finding itself in. Uh but there's also uh another avenue here. So not only are we seeking to uh seeking to address this matter uh needle distribution uh through this ordinance, but we're also looking to amend our uh memorandum of understanding uh with the distributors. Uh the city of Brockton engages in five-year contracts or memorandums of understanding uh with our needle distributors in the city of Brockton. Uh that memorandum expires in June of this year, June or July of this year. And so we're looking to amend uh that uh memorandum as well uh so that the uh the needle distributors uh understand um you know that that we're looking to tighten up uh locations and um and and data collection uh uh in the needle exchange program. So the memorandum of uh understanding u incorporates a lot of this ordinance. Um but basically that memorandum kind of addresses what we're seeking. This ordinance provides the penalties when uh when these uh programs are in violation. And so that's a general overview of what we're uh what what this ordinance is seeking to accomplish and we believe it's um will help uh with uh the needle uh issue that we have. One last thing and I think it it is with the memorandum

of understanding and not necessarily the ordinance. Uh but we're also saying that if the city of Brockton collects needles or residents of Brockton collects needles, we're turning them over to uh these institutes that get money for the distri uh the the disposal of the needles. So it will then be our policy that when we go out and collect needles and that we put them in our sharps containers that we will not be paying for the disposal uh of these needles ourselves. will be turning them over uh to these facilities and they will bear the cost of disposal. Thank you, councelor. Do you have something to add, Madam Director?

Good evening. Um so some of the reasoning behind this ordinance um and as councelor Thompson mentioned us working on this for several years now. A very large portion of the complaints that I get obviously revolves around our unhoused population, but more specifically the debris or the needles that are left behind in certain areas, especially encampments under the bridges, areas that are very popular like the parks. Um, so on a weekly basis, we try to go out um and we'll clean those up and we do have boxes, some of which the city has purchased, some of which the agencies in question have actually provided to us. Um, and they are kind enough to take those back. And so as councelor Thompson mentioned, part of theou that we would like to include is that we would be able to always give those back to them because they already have a contract set up for the disposal purposes and that eliminates some of that um burden off of DPW costwise because they just can't keep up with the cost for it. Um so that's a really big part of what we're seeing on a regular basis. We added into CCL Fix two of those agencies. So when I get notified that there is a syringe somewhere, not only am I notified, but those two agencies are also notified and we're currently tracking as like the time frame in which it takes them to go remove them and then close out that concern and let us know that that's been removed. Um, we are seeing a lot of good turnout from that. People are utilizing it now that they're seeing it. But we do still have a lot of concerns. So, a lot of our encampments do show up in our public parks or even sometimes encrouching on school property, if not actually on school property. And unfortunately with that, a lot of times there are syringes. So, it's a lot of times before DPW can possibly go out and clean and address those concerns, I'm going out and removing the syringes to ensure that none of them get stuck, that there's no safety concerns. Um, and trying to also make sure that we're keeping up with that so that when kids cut through pathways and things like that, they're not possibly coming in contact with them, especially as it starts to get warmer, the grass in

certain areas will grow higher, places with overgrowth. Um, while we do have paths, sometimes they still cut through them, and my concern is that someone could still get stuck. Um, so I do believe that the way that this ordinance is phrased right now, it will cut back on quite a bit of the concerns we have. Obviously, people will still bring them to places, but notifying um the agencies has become easier. Our relationship with them is something that we're really building upon and trying to improve to ensure that that open communication remains and that we're just getting the information back from them to add to things like our city's um needs assessments when we do them. Um being able to inform new approaches that we're taking for evidence-based practices. um in the process of currently looking into opening a day center um for our unhouse population. This is something that we're also considering what might that look like um how could we possibly incorporate those agencies into that process to make sure that everything we're doing has an all-encompassing approach. Um, and I think that this ordinance is a great place for us to start to address a lot of the safety concerns that I'm getting from our public on a regular basis, as well as ways that I'm able to then help protect our staff that are going out and cleaning to make sure that they are also um, safe and that the safety of them is kept in mind on a regular basis that they can continue to do their work. So, thank you. Um before I open it up to questions by the councils, I just have a a quick question because under definition um I was going to ask you um Jasmine if can you tell us who the two agencies are or the three agencies?

So one of them is the Bamy Cope Center.

Um so specifically BAMY in general is able to provide syringes from some of their HIV related programming. Um but the cop center is one of the largest ones because they provide testing on site as well and harm reduction services. Um Brockton neighborhood health center has both the health center and then the mobile unit that goes out and is able to park in different locations. Um and then there's also a program through health imperatives that if requested is able to provide syringes. They're not as popular of an option that we see giving them out um because it's usually like in office and it is based off of a specific request. Um, but we also want to make sure that we're including anybody in this that could possibly fit into the criteria for this and making sure that we're getting back all of the data we can possibly get.

Okay. So, that's where and I don't know what um uh Mass General Law 94G is, but at the B in section two definitions, it says this definition shall not apply to any business or organization regulated by Mass General law. So, aren't these agencies regulated by Mass General Law

to So, to an extent, so what this would do is that covers some of the stuff. So, controlled substances, that's why that's in there because of the drug portion. Um, what we're looking to do is purely just for the syringe portion. So, the syringe distribution, we cannot stop them from however many they give out. That's regulated by the state. Um, so they follow um the Department of Public Health guidelines for that. We are just asking that they only distribute them in certain places and following certain guidelines to ensure that they are going to the people that they're supposed to be. Um, and by getting that demographic information, we are able to track that. Um, obviously there are instances where we do know that some of that might be off. People give false information sometimes, but it does give us a better sense of who's being served on a regular basis versus just the information that our office might be able to collect or vice versa.

Okay. Thank you. Counselors, do you have questions? Sorry. U before uh the Brooklyn Police Department was a integral part of developing uh this uh ordinance and I know uh we have uh the chief and uh Sergeant Skinner and Lieutenant Schlean as invited guests and I'd love to hear uh them speak on the matter as well. They want to speak on it. They are here in the chambers. Did you Sergeant, Lieutenant Chief, either one any of or all Good evening. Good evening, Sergeant.

Not sure how I follow Councelor Thompson and Jasmine on this, but uh uh I guess in a nutshell, we're just looking to uh have accountability for the different folks that hang out these needles. We don't want them on the streets. We would like some sort of metrics to keep an eye on uh how many we give out. Um and uh at the end of the day, we just don't want children, families to be harmed by having their schools, parks, or on public property. So,

thank you, Sergeant. Chief or Lieutenant, did you want to chime in or no? Okay. Um counselor's question. Oh, Commissioner um McCullo, did you want to speak on the this I mean to be honest I was hoping that we could get these agencies to actually do an exchange. U you know we had them before us a few years ago and we're just baffled that you know it's called an exchange program but nobody's exchanging and that to me is just it is but whatever we can do we will do.

Okay commissioner the floor is yours. Um, so I I think this is a great program. I I feel like um we are trying to, you know, restrict certain areas and things like that. Um, and I understand that. Um, there's also an age restriction here as well. Um, state law doesn't have any doesn't mention age at all. Um what I fear is that those even below the age of 18 if they are um substance users this is going to you know impact them if they are not allowed to participate in this program because of their age and I don't know even if they collect ages um that I don't believe that is a question that they ask um so I I don't think we should put age limits on this if you and you So syringes aren't just used for substance use. They are used for medication um as well. Um and they are you know there to collect um syringes from you know people who you know use it for medication purposes. So it I don't know if we could regulate or if we should regulate um it by age or you know make a limit on this. Um I think it's just limiting and um will also put you know people at risk. So if that's one recommendation that I have. Um but I believe um and also the fine structure. Um it it's $500 and it mentioned shall um I think it should be May because I feel like there's going to be a lot of instances where you're going to have there's going to be instances where you are, you know, exchanging needles within 1,000 ft of a school. There are schools everywhere. We have

city buildings everywhere. And if we want the population to be safe, I think we should do everything in our power to make sure that the population is safe. Um, and stating shall instead of may, I think will be a great change because we have to think about this um, you know, from a stance of, you know, things happen, right? And if we are trying to protect the public, um we're going to do everything that we can regardless of where we are within the school. Um if there's a needle that needs to be exchanged, if there's a needles that need to be collected because they're there, um then that's just what we're going to need to do. So that those are my recommendations for this.

Thank you, counselors. Council Castro, thank you. Um I appreciate Um so what we're trying to do in this ordinance is we're trying to um regulate operation of needle exchange and then we're trying to regulate um quarterly report so that you know and what's being presented. So my first question is who enforces this? So so the report each of these

it's the health and human services board of health. So you enforce So you're out noticing where mobile needle exchange units are are doing business.

So they would be doing business according to their plan. So as Jasmine mentioned, they're guided by the state. The needle exchange program is guided by the state. they signed a contract or a a form with uh the previous board of health um that was approved by them through the threeperson board um and that's that's just what it is. they just had to get that agreement but they are approved by the state but according to state law they do have to or they should provide um some sort of you know data around you know what they're collecting we could determine which I think these are good um I think also one thing that I noticed is that there is a conflict um so it's mentioned this is the correct one yes so it's mentioned that um uh number two the native exchange program or mobile exchange shall only distribute, collect and dispose of needles. Part of that um of their work is also testing. Um and I'm just noticed that there is some data collection on you know how many tests have we done for HIV, all those things. So I think we should add that to number two um as part of you know their regular work as well to make sure that you know there is no conflict in and what we're trying to collect and what they're doing. So what you would have it say shall only distribute, collect, dispose and test dispose of needles and and do their testing for um bloodborne pathogens. But they have there is a list of things that they are required to do by the state,

okay, as part as a needle exchange or syringe service uh program. Okay. So I don't think we should limit anything that they're required to do by the state. I don't we cannot we can't do that. Like that's the state. We can't preempt the state. But test as required by the state. They also provide mental health services and some of the um mobile like the mobile unit will provide mental health services as they move around. So that part might need to just be changed in general to providing the services through the guidelines of the state but nothing more

just to ensure that we have a clear understanding of what they're doing. Um and we could provide you what those guidelines are. I have them here as well. Um but yeah, so as long as we're not restricting them from what they are required to do by the state, I think we'll be fine. Okay. And then we're also requiring them to do this reporting. Yeah, that's that's law quarterly basis. That's fine. And those A through E are all consistent with what you want to see. Yeah, as long as there's no um identifying information. Okay. And your department

um enforces that. So you'll be the one will actually be the police department and your department who will be missing an a report or have incomplete information. Yeah, they'll be providing that information. Okay. So you know we have penalties down below. Um but I just want to know who are are you penalizing your department? Is the police doing that with you? How is this working? So according to the law, it is under uh health and human services board of health. So I would be enforcing um those uh I guess regulations.

Okay. Okay. And that's noncriminal under 40 section 21D. Okay. Um, you know, there's going to be things that come up. Thank you. Those are my questions at this time. Thank you. Thank you very much, counselor. Uh, counselors, any other questions?

Okay. Yeah. So just just uh kind of um that way I know uh uh legislative council have we you understand maybe some of the uh the language that was uh that was proposed uh in section 3 um item number two uh include basically what's what's allowed under uh the state statute when it comes to the services offered. So, it's not just the needles alone, but potentially testing and um and uh mental health treatment or anything like that. So, maybe we can tighten up that language a bit. Um

so, I think that under section two, you can add in those operations as permitted by state law. Okay, perfect. So, you're going to amend number two and then Yes. So we'll uh we'll we'll make that amendment. And then and then secondly, I guess uh the issue of persons under the age of 18. Um can you explain your reasoning again? Just

so I feel it's it's potentially increasing their risk. Um if one of the the major reasons why programs like this exist is to um hopefully curb or mitigate the spread of uh bloodborne illnesses um HIV, AIDS, things like that. Um in Brockton there's already you know we have a a high HIV rate as is. Um I fear you know with limiting it to 18 and over we are subjecting a younger population to um potentially contracting these diseases um who are within who are either using needles or you know what have you. But um I think we there should be no age limits. I think everybody should have an opportunity to participate in this program if they need it. Um, and if we, you know, do it right with good communication, I think we'll be fine.

All right. And Jasmine, do you concur or,

um, I do agree just because we are also seeing an increase of younger students um, that have diabetes or other medications that need to be injected. Um, they are allowed to give syringes out to people for that purpose as well. So, if you aren't able to afford them from a pharmacy, you can get them here. One of the data points that they collect for demographics is a birthday and they would just give us the age afterwards. So, it does also help us inform some of the programs that do our educational stuff for the schools as to how often we're seeing youth. So, it might be um valuable to remove that um and just make sure that that that is something they are reporting to us that we have a better sense of what we might be seeing for those groups. um just because it also gives us a better sense sometimes of what other things we might need to be paying better attention to. Um some of the schools have syringe disposal boxes, some of them do not inside. Um but we do have a lot of students that are diabetic whether it's from birth or they are diagnosed later on. So

all right, thank you um madam council. So potentially that the the age issue falls under the definition of needle exchange program participant. I think you can just delete the um the entire definition. But don't we speak to participants in other parts? Correct. But if you're only limiting what the age is, then you don't need to identify what a participant is. It would be understood by normal course of language. Okay. All right. I I'm gonna um And there was also the may instead of shall in section five 5A.

All right. So, I'm going to make three I'll make three separate amendments and that way everybody can weigh in on each one individually instead of one um one amendment as a whole. So I I will start with um I make a motion to amend uh the ordinance by striking the definition of needle exchange program participant. Is there a second? Second. Motion's been made to um amend. All those in favor?

All those opposed? That amendment passes. Uh secondly, um I make amendment to uh amend uh section three uh item number two by including uh language uh stated by the council uh uh legislative council. And if you could just put that on the record. Yep. And these and add um in these operation and those operations as permitted by state law. Okay. Second. Motion's been made and probably seconded to accept the amendment. All those in favor? All those opposed? The amendment passes.

Then lastly, um I make amendment uh excuse me, I make a motion to amend um section five penalties. Uh item A. Um where is it? Oh, for yeah, change the word shall. Uh wait, there's shall twice. So um shall in the first instance um relating to uh mobile exchange found in violation of this section shall be fined $500. Um that instance of shall uh shall be amended uh to May. There a second second.

A motion has been made properly seconded to accept the amendment. All those in favor? All those opposed? The amendment passes. Then stays. I'm sorry. He did that. Oh, and he did this one. Shannon put in the wording. What about three? Okay. Um I'm not sure. Did you What are we looking at? To do number three. Um section three. Number three.

Okay. Yes. Uh so, uh make a motion to amend section three. Item three. Uh, no. No needle exchange program or mobile exchange shall knowingly distribute needles to persons less than 18 years of age. Second. A motion has been made and properly seconded to accept the amendment. All those in favor? All those opposed? The amendment passes. Now, do we have a motion on the whole? I'll uh make a motion to uh recommend favorably the ordinance as amended to the full city council. Second. A motion's been made and properly seconded to accept this uh to recommend this favorably back to the full city council as amended. All those in favor?

All those opposed? It passes as amended. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank thank you all for the work. Um Jasmine Brockton Police thank you for your work on this. Madame clerk, item number three.

Item number three, ordinance nor amending amending article 5 storm water management ordinance. Invited to attend. Commissioner um DPW Patrick Hill. She doesn't read them anymore. Good evening, commissioner.

Good evening, councilors. Um, I brought this ordinance change to you, um, because I think that this program, the storm water program, has developed quite a bit of confusion amongst the world outside with the developments that are going on with the uh, storm water ordinance as it exists. Um as the state's storm water permit as it exists is different than our storm water permit in our storm water ordinance which um realistically has has created a lot of uh back and forth a lot of time wasted and I don't want to say wasted but because the city has adopted a standard that is very stringent and the state standard standard um to some degree is less stringent. What we're asking developers to do now is to develop uh a storm water plan based on the state standard and then turning around and then asking them to develop a plan based on the city standard which has delayed and in some instances has caused developers to withdraw from projects. Some of these reviews can take 6 months, 7 months. Um they're very complex. Uh there's a lot of uh back and forth with and and frustration with with the developers. Uh the city engineer uh Mr. Odonukquay had uh presented this to you in 2017. The permit was issued by the state um in 2016. We we adopted this ordinance in 2017. Um and since that time is is just there's been a lot of havoc with this. So,

after years of discussion um with both the former mayor um Mayor Sullivan and the current mayor, I've sat down with uh one of our consultants that we use for a lot of our storm water reviews, Apex. um and reviewed the initial piece of the ordinance, which would be the storm water manual or the storm water management ordinance, just the ordinance. After a few months of reviews and some changes, the goal was to try to bring the city standard back to the state standard because again we I think we're discouraging uh developers um by uh the stringent terms of our ordinance. I think it's costing them money. I think it's cost the city a lot of money. the storm water authority um in the review process. So, we're trying to kind of streamline this and replicate what other communities around us do. Um and I and I brought Mr. Steers here um with me. Uh I know he was not invited, but it

if there's no objection, we can um who I'm sorry. This is Darren Stairs. He's a professional engineer. He works for Apex. He is our primary point of contact through um all of our storm water review projects. Good evening. There's no objections, counselors. We can hear from Mr. Sters. Good evening. Thank you.

And I guess just just one more just just real quick. So, like I said, the the initial piece for us was to to address the ordinance. Um I I think we'll be back. Um it's not just the ordinance, it's the ordinance, it's the manual. Um we have another artic article so it's article 5, article 6, article 7. Um we did not find a lot of issues with article 7. Um and so we'll be making some changes to that, but there'll be some more recommendations to come. Uh but this was the uh I guess first plan of attack to try to get this out in front of you so that we could start making adjustments to the rest of it. Uh and and with that, I'll I'll let Darren explain.

Sure. Uh good evening councilors. Um as as Commissioner Hill said um you have three primary ordinances implementing ordinances five, six and seven. Um as you mentioned, article 7 is the IDE uh ordinance. Um pretty much can stand alone as it should. Part of our challenge was the other two ordinances. The first one, article five, which is actually your implementing ordinance, needed a little bit of updating to bring it current to best practices for 2026. Um, and also to align it with the state of Massachusetts storm water standards, as Mr. Hill mentioned. The second thing, uh, article six, which is called your storm water management manual. Typically, we don't see that as an ordinance. that's a rule or a regul rule and regulation that's administered by the stormwater authority. So our suggestion would be that you remove that as an ordinance, repeal article six and and then we would um some of the some of the complications that are arising from applicants and frankly from consultants reviewing occur actually in the stormwater manual uh article. And um there there's a combination of repetition in there with the implementing ordinance and also confliction with the state of Massachusetts standards and even itself in some situations. So what we decided to start with was article 5 start at the beginning. So what you see before you is uh kind of a reorganization of it. Uh there was a lot of good all of the ordinances have good material in them. I think it just needed there needed to be some clarity distilled out of them. Uh I did reorganize the article um to follow

a little bit more what we're used to seeing uh in other communities. Um again, the the ordinance itself should just be the purpose and authority and you all know this. This is what you're doing every night here. Um any the applicability of the ordinance, any exemptions. Um and then specific to storm water ordinances, we have a category for post construction storm water management and construction phase management. So construction phase management is like your erosion control and all that stuff. And then post construction is how they're going to maintain their facilities in perpetuity. So uh Commissioner Hill is not having to run out there and take care of these things. There is an inspection and enforcement compliance um measure in there as well. But the a lot of the detail we would move to a rule and regulation similar to subdivision rules and regulations. That's the nitty-gritty of the the engineer has to design to this storm event and has to meet these standards. And typically again, we would defer primarily to the Massachusetts storm water standards because that's what most engineers are used to designing to with whatever caveats the city wants to in input into that section of ordinance. So, and then the last thing is uh following that there there is some uh discussion of storm water in your subdivision rules and regulations. I know that's not under your purview, but just to let you know that we we would probably those were last updated in 2018. I would suggest to the planning board that they go in and and true those up against these stormwater regulations because again there's there's conflicting references in both. So I'll stop there and open to any questions.

Thank you. Um before we go into questions, Commissioner Hill, do you know why we chose to go with the direction of our own order instead of um back in 2017? Uh I do. Um they said we had to I think it was something to do I remember I think it was something to do with how this federal government called it a bylaw and we don't follow bylaws

and so we had this discussion about it being an order or an ordinance and it was decided that we had to do it by ordinance because we didn't want to have them coming back and saying that we did it wrong. Um, and it was definitely not the clerk's favorite choice because the manual is like hundreds of pages long and it makes our ordinances look um, bulky and silly and it hinders the ability to make changes on a manual. Um, but it was because of however the federal government warded what we had to do was the EPA, right? And I I remember that. And so so now we can make these so we can revert back without having Yes. I know

they don't have their eyes on us like they did if we passed by order or ordinance.

And I and I think that's why we're here, right? It's there's been a lot of confusion and a lot of frustration. And I know that I've received calls from a lot of you from, you know, that because you guys are getting the calls from some of the developers, right? They're very frustrated. they've submitted applications, they haven't been reviewed in time. What's going on? Can we look at this? Can we look at that? Um, and it was really not until maybe, you know, last spring, um, that I was able to find a consultant that I was comfortable with, um, after hearing all of the complaints and having a better understanding as to what the ordinance looked like, um, and and what needed to be done. Um, I met with Apex. I interviewed a couple of companies. I was very comfortable with Apex. Um Apex does a lot of storm water plan reviews uh in a lot of the communities around here. Uh they were formerly environmental partners, so a lot of people would know them um as environmental partners, but uh Apex is a national company that took control over uh environmental partners. Um so we met and the discussions began and you know the very first project that they reviewed was the uh professional women's soccer field up on Howard Street. So um we have a really really good relationship. Um we've been working on this and trying to get that backlog of permits taken care of so that uh these projects can be constructed and that we're not uh discouraging people from building here in the city. Um but going forward this is the easiest way to kind of streamline that process. We don't want people to think that Brockton for any you know or in any way shape or form is not friendly both to business and to residential um building. Uh we want to encourage that. We don't want to make things problematic. It making those things

problematic makes things problematic for me makes things problematic for you. Um and it makes things problematic for the project. So, um, the goal was to try to reel in the ordinance, try to get it to reflect the same verbiage as the state standard, uh, eliminate the manual in its entirety because one, it's it's very bulky. Two, it's it's outdated. Um, and three, because of the way that the regulation changes, um, if if the manual stays, then the as the regulation changes, we would have to change the manual and come back to you every single time to to adopt the changes and change uh the manual in the ordinance. Um, every other community does that through rules and regulations. Um, I I think that Brockton should do the same. It it would eliminate in essence the storm water authority. uh while it was I guess a good theory maybe u to have you know community people engaged and and try to get them uh on board with uh the storm water issue. Um, you know, it's unless you have a bunch of people that that work in public works or are professional engineers that have the ability to understand some of the complexities of storm water and grading and disturbance. And, you know, I I I don't think it's fair to the applicant. I don't and I don't think it's fair to the committee to to put that on them. Um so part of this is you know part of this change will eliminate this the uh storm water commission which again will also streamline the process because the storm water commission was is only voting on things that have been reviewed and you know I I I can't imagine that after a three or four month lengthy review with a lot of back and forth with uh

three four, sometimes five different engineers um in in six different iterations of questions and back and forths that anybody on that commission is going to uh deny something that was finally agreed upon. So, um that would allow me as the commissioner to approve these projects and and allow these projects to to to be uh developed a lot quicker. Thank you, Commissioner. Counselor's questions. Council Terra. Thank you, Chair. Um, Commission, what's the time frame to do the review inhouse for the storm water?

So, like I said, you know, these are a lot of people have asked me that question. Um, it's when you have a single engineer and and I and I say this not to be cruel um or to be judgmental, but the way that this ordinance is designed and the complexity of the ordinance as written makes it almost impossible for one person to review a project in a timely manner. So a project that could be reviewed by several engineers and probably um at least get to the comment phase within a week may take a single engineer a month and a half. It may take him two months. The other problem with that is that you're now you're you're I guess pitting uh you know two professionals against each other. So it's one person opinions versus the other. Um, and unfortunately we only have one professional engineer here in the city and sometimes personalities get in the way and and that in itself was holding up things. So this was meant to take kind of and I don't want to call it politics but almost take kind of the politics away from that um to kind of streamline the process to a group of people that do this um every single day. Um they they it's not one person, it's several. Um they certainly have access to things that we don't have access to here in the city with you know um with um programming and uh expertise. You know storm water is a specialty you know is a specialty of of civil engineering. You know some people just do storm water some people just do electrical engineering. Some people just do water and sewer and utility mapping. And um you know I I think it was set up to fail from the beginning. And you know, I I'm hopeful that this will kind of

streamline that process. It has also identified some other issues that we've um I guess never kind of thought of, not just necessarily as a as a storm water commission or as a DPW, but as a city as a whole. Um part of the rules and regulations we hope will be that one that the you know the applicant will be the applicant will be paying for the storm water review. Um two the the applicant will also have to pay for site visits. Um and we will keep retainage on any project until we get asu plans. three things we really really struggle with. You know, the site site visits and inspections by somebody that actually knows, you know, the the particulars about grading and somebody that knows the particulars about storm water systems and um as plans that, you know, as plans always sound like a great thing and an asbill plan is just simply a plan uh that's uh reduced uh to a piece of paper that's something that was actually built, right? So, you know, you get proposals for plans, things change in the field, but a lot of times those things don't get reduced to a document. And if you don't have that document when that person leaves, then you really don't know what's in the ground because it wasn't accurately reflected. So, um those are things that I think will be very very helpful to us, not just with storm water, but with with water, with with sewer, with, you know, uh other drainage issues maybe that we identify when we're out. So, uh I think this change will be beneficial to the city and really to all the pe all the applicants as well. So, um is it fair to say that we did lost uh the city lose some uh investor contract because of storm water

because of time it took to do the review

because of the review time. I I would say that there have been some projects that we've seen um that have kind of pulled back. Um whether or not they'll be restored, I don't know. But I think it was due to the level of frustration because some of these projects are very complex and to have a complex project on top of a complex ordinance makes things very very difficult. So when plans come over and the initial review happens and there are 30 comments on uh a project um you know I think that sometimes the applicant would take us will take a step back and say you know is this really worth me constructing? Is this really worth another 6 months of review to try to get to something that maybe the city will be happy with? And how much is it going to cost in the end for me to to develop it? So I don't think we'll see that anymore. Um, I know that since we've had uh Apex reviewing our plans, we certainly have sped up that process. There still is a little bit of frustration with some of the projects that are existing now because we're still reviewing to the current ordinance. So even the projects that we have with a third party with several engineers is still taking time but we hope that the the change will speed those things up and and it's not um we're we're not putting anything or res other residents in jeopardy. We're we're not you know turning a blind eye to storm water regulations. We we're just trying to be uh like everybody else all the other communities around here and and that's and that's fair. For years and years and years, you know, this this state, every state went without storm water regulations. So, this is a new thing. I think it's a good thing. Um but it's going to take it's going to take a little bit of time for people to get used to and you know, no matter what, we're still going to have a standard and that's going to be the state standard. And I and I think in a

case like this, that's what it should be. But that will definitely expire the process that will uh if you send outside right to apex what's the time frame that will be with the apex verse

every project is different based on the complexity you know um but I mean if a typical review I guess be mindful too that some of this or some of those reviews would would simply be a peer review right so that the project will have been designed to the state standard already. It won't have to be redesigned to the city standard. So, if there's a project that was designed to the state standard, then Apex would simply be reviewing the storm water uh project uh as submitted in the in the planning phase. So, I I mean, this will be like lightning speed, I guess, in in comparison to the way the projects have been.

All right. Appreciate. Thank you, Commission. Thank you.

All set, counselor. Any other questions? Council Mccastra. Thank you. I started researching this a few weeks ago. I've looked at Newton, New Bedford, and Lawrence, and um I'm not thrilled with what's in front of us. I don't want to give I I like having an authority with citizens on it. I do. And certainly, just like with Concom, we can have consultants who do the technical work and advise them and make suggestions. But if zoning can do it and planning can do it and conservation can do it, I think storm water can do it, too. I I I do receive emails um from constituents about this. Required meetings haven't been held. Minutes haven't been posted. Commitments to this the attorney general's office haven't been followed through on. There there have been a lot of issues. I I want to take a stab at creating an ordinance um that combines the best of the other ordinances. We passed uh the first ordinance in 2019. We passed the second one um yeah in 2019 and um and I I want I wanted I'm doing a lot of work on this. I would ask my colleagues to indulge me and continue this because I just think it's vague and putting it into putting the decision- making into the hands of any DPW commissioner I don't think is prudent. I I think it belongs with an authority with citizenry getting input from city employees and from consultants. I really do. Um, you know, um, I I appreciate the

situation that we're in. I probably know more about it than most people. Um, I've talked to the conservation agent at length about it. And, um, I I'm willing to work on it and get it done as soon as possible, but I I just I don't I don't care for this. I I think we we have to take the best of the last one and perhaps merge it in with some other things that are proposed tonight. Um and I feel really strongly about it. Yeah. Um yeah, I do. I do. You all set, counselor? Yes.

Uh bringing up the conservation agent, I do want to let the committee know that I did receive an email from him. Um but uh and he said that he was concerned about this and that he had information. I asked him to forward it but I never received anything. So I just want to let you know that um I never received any information from him. I don't know if any of you have but besides that original reservation. Okay.

And just for the purposes of clarity I mean the the conservation agent was involved in this process. So when we initially met with Apex to discuss the changes, he was there when we talked about um the inconsistencies with with the manual and the inconsistencies with the ordinance and and the benefit of adopting the state standard. He was there. He was there and he left happy. So I'm not sure what his particular issue is. Um, but he has not, I guess, relayed any of that concern to me

and and he hasn't to us besides just stating that he had a concern and I asked him to forward the information and that I would get it to the committee, but I never received anything. So, I just wanted to make that, you know, public. and and and councelor to to to address your comment about the authority versus the commissioner making the opinion just I mean just just for clarity purposes it's the the storm water is simply a utility I approve utilities all day almost every day water utilities

um you know this is it's part of my job storm water projects or drainage issues it's part of my job sewer issues it's part of my job so this isn't something that I would be unilaterally uh approving. It would be something that would have been reviewed on several different at several different uh places. But the storm water authority is not the planning board, right? The storm water authority is not turning down projects. It's simply adopting a recommendation from a consultant. You know, it the planning board can deny projects. the the traffic commission can reject things, but the storm water authorities's job is not necessarily to reject things. It's just to make sure that it's met the standard and that standard uh clarification will have happened through the review process.

That's true. Um there are a lot of this as you know the this community has a high water table. Okay. And with the kind of deluge storms that we get, um, storm water is becoming a real issue, certainly in the spring and the fall, and a lot of residents are very concerned. And I I think I can pull from them some people to populate a storm water authority. But I I don't think this last ordinance, the one that's currently on the books, was ever carried out the way it was supposed to be.

I I don't disagree. and and and I think we've kind of lost track of the purpose of MS4, right? The purpose of MS4 was was to to monitor the discharge of the water into the into the you know the water system or the you know the the drainage into the the river systems and and ensuring that that water quality because that's really what it's about, right? It's ensuring that the quality of that water is not full of oils. It's not full of gases. It's not full of uh you know other discharges that are polluting the the waterways, not necessarily from the drainage side of things.

A, as I say, I've I've reviewed um the ordinances and the manuals for other communities. New Bedford has a really um good setup. I I I am willing to work on it with you and I but I just I don't find this to be um adequate. Um I and so I guess I would make a motion unless someone else is there. Any other question? Councelor Thompson has a question. Go ahead. Uh thank you Madam Chair and good evening uh Mr. Commissioner and um sorry Darren Stairs.

Stairs Mrs. Stairs um tell you I'm not a an engineering expert. Um but I I o over the last seven years I've kind of become a uh government bureaucracy expert. And so essentially uh what I'm hearing is that the ordinance before us is uh an effort to streamline a burdensome process. And believe me, um, when you were making references to counselors calling you saying, "What the heck is going on with this project?" You know, I'll I'll out myself um and say that I've I've done that on a few occasions uh regarding uh the storm water management authority and and um it it has been a problem um and it it it's delayed uh unnecessarily delayed projects. And when you delay, it's costs. And so we're just uh uh creating these costs uh for our developers and and we you know Brockton needs development. We are one of those uh one of those communities that that's that that begs for um development in the city and we want to make sure that our processes are clear uh that they're streamlined uh that they're knowable and that we're not creating uh unnecessary uh um obstacles uh to people who just want to build uh want to build it right and uh want to whether it be for residential purposes or commercial purposes. uh just want to make sure that uh we have clear procedures and policies uh that they can follow. The fact that we have uh we we've we've uh restricted uh our requirements that are you know um more restrictive than the state requirements. Uh in some you know in some instances that makes sense but it seems like in an engineering instance maybe not so much. And so um and my understanding of the uh storm water

authority is as you said is a rubber stamp essentially of an agreed upon um design or engineering uh uh plan that's been debated uh peer-reviewed um and then presented over a period of time to basically lay people uh who you know uh who you're saying that don't don't even have the authority to vote it down. Is that correct? They can't. Well, I guess my point is some of those boards have the authority to vote projects down,

right? If somebody were to vote a review down, I mean, certainly it would have to be for with with some credibility, right? With some specific situation that they weren't comfortable with. But it but at the end of the day when you have you know both the applicant and the uh the the reviewing consultant I guess u agreeing to something that it meets the standard and these are people that that go to school for this these are professionals right that that's what they do um authorities I would think it if somebody were to reject something like that I mean there's liability in that right there's liability from uh the uh uh the applicant you you know, at a concern that that they came to an agreement with the consultant. Um, and you know, without having somebody, I guess, as on the board that's a professional engineer making or giving an opinion, I I would be concerned that that again would create liability issues for the city

because it seems like in our other boards, uh, some of the decisions they made are are more subjective. Uh, when it comes to licensing, is this proper? you know, when it comes to zoning, uh is this, you know, um uh is does this uh is the hardship u an actual hardship under, you know, under the standards, right? So, when it comes to some of our other boards, you know, they they're providing a subjective opinion. You're saying that the storm water uh management authority uh their their basic function is to determine whether the storm water plan being presented to them meets meets the standard

meets the standard. And you're going to have two professionals there um that basically say yes, it meets the standard.

Yes. And so it it just seems like another layer of bureaucracy if if there's really no back and forth or there's really no um you know uh subjective nature in which people of reasonable understanding can disagree on a matter is does this meet the standard? We have two expert engineers stating that it does meet the standard. what would, you know, what would an attorney uh a mechanic or, you know, a gardener know uh about that standard? I'm not saying I'm not disparaging anybody on the storm water authority, but that's kind of how you're presenting what their authority is. And if we're now just, you know, if this is essentially a rubber stamp committee, then again, why do we need it? And and so I just, you don't have to answer that.

No, no, no. I I I actually wanted to to to comment on something else that council Castro said because I when you look at other communities, it's it's really really difficult even with this utility to start making comparisons to other communities, it's kind of like the trash, right? Like the the level of service and the the level of detail that goes into reviews. New Bedford was one of the instances that you um said that they have a very uh a very good uh storm water review or storm water ordinance. New New Bedford in its entirety is a different situation like much like Fall River, much like Taton are entirely different when it comes to storm water. Their systems are comingled. Their sanitary or their sewer and their storm water systems are combined. They have 10 probably 15 years left of of separating those projects. Brock Brockton's very fortunate. I I can't speak for the other communities, but I know that was common back in the day where the sanitary and um the uh storm uh sewer systems were were tied together. Um so it's it's it's not an applesto apples thing. Um the state standard exists for a reason. It's it's um stringent enough I think. uh it's uh a uh a department that you know like I said I think our focus has kind of shifted away from the purpose um and I think it's it's time to get back to to doing some of those other things you know to getting some of those uh outfalls monitored to to the get the water sampling done to get the permitting done to get uh the permit actual actual permit with EPA changed right to to adopt the state standard because as it is right now our our permits out of date and it's not even compliant with the state standard let alone the federal.

Yeah. So I mean as as you stated uh throughout your presentation and as said Mr. Stairs that our uh ordinance is really kind of uh uh lacking um and it it's it's it's not flexible and it's not meeting the the needs of our developers. Um and so I have no problem uh continuing this matter. uh you know I I would never want to take away um you know an opportunity for uh members of this committee to further uh look into matters and work with the department to develop a better ordinance. I just want to make sure that you know that um that can be done in a timely manner and that um it can be done for when this the next ordinance committee meeting uh because uh this is a matter uh that we want to resolve as soon as possible um because of the backlogs of the obstacles of the you know the issues that we're facing and so um I have no problem um uh voting to uh postpone this matter. We don't have a motion yet.

Well, I know. I know. I'm just saying that, you know, I I just I'm hoping that uh Councelor Niccastro, you can work with uh uh Commissioner Hill, and I know you will. Um but that this matter is ready to go uh for a final vote the next time we see it. Yeah. And I'm happy to set something up too where we could bring um you know Darren in um maybe set up some whether it's a inerson meeting or some kind of Zoom meeting if it's more convenient for people to kind of get a a better idea of what the other communities look like you know how we got to where we're at and to have a more detailed discussion about

I think that would be great commissioner I think you know to get some an understanding of what the other communities how they're working with us would be great for the committee There have a motion or Yeah. Let's make a motion to postpone to the next ordinance committee meeting. Second. A motion's been made to postpone to the next ordinance meeting and properly seconded. All those in favor? Okay. All those opposed? The matter is postponed till the next ordinance meeting. We should have one next sometime this month. Thank you, Council. Thank you. Uh Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Stairs, thank you for appearing this evening. Very much. Um, madame clerk, the last item, item number four,

ordinance, an ordinance amending chapter 2, article 6, division 8, youth council, invited to attend, mayor Moses Rodriguez, or his designate. I know we have um director of social services, Jasmine Brat. Thank you, Jasmine. And then from my understanding, this is kind of just to fix some um it's really just to clean up some of the wording. Yeah, we're just fixing some of the mistakes and typos and then making sure that we're including some of the schools that we had missed that have been added since. Okay. Is there is there a version Sorry. Sure.

Counselor. Is there a full version of the ordinance? Um this this ordinance just kind of amends an existing ordinance. Just wondering um uh madame counsel can you share the underlying ordinance y

so we so we understand you know the fuller context of uh what's being changed. Um and then and then uh lastly, so can you the crux of this is that the existing ordinance you're just looking it looks like some kind of spelling you know scrivener errors that were made and then um you know it seems like this ordinance was drafted prior to uh our new middle schools being created and so we just want to make sure that we're inclusive of all of our middle schools in the city. Uh so that that's completely understandable. Um, but I don't know a lot about the youth council itself. So, can you maybe just quickly speak to the youth council? How does one join the youth council? Uh, is it currently uh up and running? Um, and my understanding is who runs the youth council. It's it's I know it's not the city, right? Didn't we have some other entity actually running the council? So, for a few years, um, it was being overseen by the Boys and Girls Club through the Brockton's Promise. Okay.

Um, with this new administration, we were able to get it back into the mayor's office. So, currently the point of contact for that is Clayton Baros, um, our director of youth affairs and special projects, and then I'm supporting him where he needs any backup on that because I was a part of the, um, group that was with the Boys and Girls Club. So they are in the process of initial meetings. They did have one meeting with the students that had showed some interest. Um they get referrals from the schools of either students that have expressed interest or that teachers believe would be good fits for the program. Um then they meet as a large group and they go over different things. So they can go over projects that they want to work on. Um any policy concerns that they might have that they want to bring to the council and mayor's attention. um they can organize events. Um they have a lot of freedom to kind of do a lot of different things with the support of the city to back that up. Um every year they usually do a youth summit as well and that varies as to what that looks like. It can be presentations on different topics. Um in the past they've done things similar to like a talent show or like a presentation of different skills. Um, it's really up to the students and they just get support from the mayor's office, from council, from different community leaders and organizations and it just really gives them a platform to have a voice and share what's going on for them, what they're seeing and some of those things that they want to work on. Now, will the existing council be transferred over to the current council or are we is it going to be a full new um election or appointment of new members or how how once this uh ordinance is revised? Um what what do we what's the council do from there?

So, just some information council this this is already happening. This ordinance is just to fix the spelling. The youth council is in existence. It has been at a meeting. It's all done through the mayor's office and if we want to get more information, I think it would be nice to I mean it's always been a great program. At one point it was called the mayor's youth council and they do a lot of stuff but tonight it's really just to fix the spelling on this. Um then I think what might be appropriate is uh for us to file a resolve would be great. Yeah. To have uh the youth council come before us uh so that the city uh can learn more about it. Absolutely. That would be wonderful. But yes, so now any questions on the um corrections of spelling corrected? Council Castro.

Thank you. Good evening, Madam Brad. Um my only question is why are the ages changing in in section A. They're going from ages 12 to 18 to ages 13 to 19. So, in order for the ages um to kind of fit better with the age range of students that we are seeing, um most of who we see is 13 or over. That's who gets referred because of the middle school cutoff. Um but then we're also seeing students that might have started later in the year. So, we're looking and some of those might be 17 when they're getting ready to graduate or we might have students that were 19 as they're preparing to graduate. and we want to make sure that that doesn't cut off them being able to join. Um, so we made sure to up it to 19, but then there's also been concerns with other programs similar to like Brockton After Dark where we had to change the age limits on that so that we didn't have very very young students and then older students kind of mixing together for different things. Um, we also have the capacity if needed. there's information for a youth council and then a youth task force and oftentimes the task force can encompass um those students from the Brockton's promise that I had mentioned from the Boys and Girls Club as well as sometimes younger students that might be interested in kind of growing and getting to the point where they could join the council later on.

Thank you. My only other comment would be perhaps arrange to bring the youth council to a city council meeting and we can have a little get together afterwards and talk about what they're doing and talk about what we're doing. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you very much. Good luck with it. Of course. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. Any other questions? No. We'll entertain a motion. Motion to recommend favorably. Second. A motion's been made and properly seconded to recommend this favorably back to the full city council. All those in favor? All those opposed? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Have a good motion adjourn. Second. Motion's been made and properly second to adjurnn.

All those in favor? Those opposed? We are adjourned. Great. Thank you, council.