Preservation Commission - Regular Meeting

Order the June 13, 2024 public hearing of the city of Prescuits Preservation Commission. Members present. Rick, I apolog This is my first time doing this in about 16 17 years. So I apologize if I butcher anybody's name or anything else. So Rick Kermy Camery Camry see first one goes right out the door James Macccarver Diane Travis Rob Johnson is not here Zanel Bolangef see there's number two and I'm Richard Sprain the chairman for today so we have one two three five present and we need four for the majority Uh, Kelly Nunees, our historic preservation specialist, Alex Bermott, our planning manager. Tammy Dit and Oh, Jacob. Chelsea Walton. Oh, and mayor feel good. This is an open public hearing and is being recorded by the city. The proceedings are being televised by representatives of the public media, local cable and/or radio stations and may be rebroadcast. The number of commissions present is five and the majority of vote to make pass a motion. All parties wishing to be heard will be expected to state their full name for the record and please speak loudly and clearly and close to the microphone. And please turn off all your electronic devices. And thank you. And then uh we will take the first item which is voting on the last meeting's minutes.

Jake, what was the date on that? Mar I know was March. March 14. March 14th. March 14th. Mr. Chair Diane Travis. I move to approve the March 14th, 2025 minutes as presented. Do a second. I have a second. All in favor? I know those. Motion carries. Move on to HP 24012. the request for after the-act stuck on metal permanent fencing at 410 East Goodwin Street. And I'll turn this over to Kaylee. Okay. Thank you. Uh good morning, chair, commissioners. Kaylee Nunes, historic preservation specialist. Uh so today we are hearing um a project that's an after the fact project um 402 and 410 East Goodwin Street. So, uh, today we are evaluating the two gazeos that were put up, I believe, about a year and a half ago. Here's and then the perimeter fencing. Um, just just a little history, especially for the new commissioners. Um, these items were brought to the city's attention. I apologize, it was off. Uh, brought to the city's attention um like late spring 2023. Uh so it was decided that the fencing and gazeos needed to go to preservation first to get approval prior to um obtaining a what we call a site permit. So the fencing and gazeos don't require a building permit, but they do require what's called a site permit where we evaluate it for it's basically planning and public works evaluate it for proper placement on the property.

Um we did take it to preservation commission in November 2023. Uh it was denied. Uh the commission asked for the applicant to provide alternatives specifically for the fence design. Um and then the applicant and property owner resubmitted a new application in this past October. So we are moving this forward again. and I will start with the presentation. Uh so here's an aerial view of the property location. It is on the uh southwest corner of Pleasant Street and Goodwin. Uh this property is in two historic districts. It's in a local and a national district. The reason you are hearing it is because preservation commission evaluates projects in local districts. And I will clarify that the home itself is not on the National Register of Historic Places. Uh it was inventory back in the late '9s. So at that time it wasn't eligible because it wasn't old enough. Um now it would be because it's it's crossed that 50-year threshold. We just have not reinventoried the district. Um, with that said, uh, the Ramadas 10 by 10 by9, um, wood construction, white with gray shingles, and they are just fasten fastened to the papers with, uh, like black hardware. There's one on either side. So, you'll see it's I think it's like a we'll have the owner come up and speak in a while. I think it's a triplex at this point. It's certainly a duplex. Um that's like symmetrical. So

there is a ramada on each side. And here is the fencing. Um it varies from 2 and 1/2 to 3 ft tall stuck. It has a stucco base uh with stucco columns and CMU caps. And then the the railing is square metal uh and horizontal. So, here are some additional photos. I also got a dog in the photo. I always have trouble with this. Yeah. So, this shows a gazebo on the left hand side of uh the residence. And then that's just kind of a view of the front run of the fencing. And I took these two weeks ago. Uh here is the site plan. the applicant uh provided with the preservation commission submitt. So I highlighted the two gazeos on there. Um it's of note that we we found this isn't within the commission's perview, but we found the gazeos are actually encroaching in the rightway. So that's going to be a issue um that's dealt with with um public works once we proceed to the site permit. if if this gets approved. So, I pull this this site plan was included with the building permit. They have um a building permit running parallel with this for an interior remodel. And so, you see the property line in that one cuts cuts through them. And so this was uh is was provided by the applicant, the property owner, as a uh proposal to make the fencing more historically compatible. So basically,

he would put horizontal wooden planks uh painted white over the metal railing to make it more of that um original ranch style. way back it had you see that low fence little picket fence. So try not to make you guys dizzy. So there is the proposal and again just just a recap I went over um most of well I didn't go over most of this. So, I reviewed it against chapter 10, uh, East Prescuit of the preservation master plan. So, I the stuckco walls are compatible with the home itself. It's mid-century and there are a few quite a few stucco walls in the district. Um the CMU caps in metal railings are not uh the proposed modification for the fencing improvement emanates emanate cedar split rail fence which is period and style appropriate for the home and the style materials for the romas are appropriate for the district. However, the sighting is not and um in my staff report, you know, that I included ahead of the meeting, I kind of went more into the sighting and how it talks about it in in the uh specific chapter for East Prescuit. And the idea is that we uh any new construction, especially accessory structures, be located to the side or preferably rear of the property so as not to detract from the historic character. Um so that brings us to action. Uh move to approve with stipulations or deny. And I'm sorry that

is the old project number. Uh, so it's HP24-012 and I will open it up for questions and comments. We do have the property owner and applicant Chris Todd here. Would you step up if you like as well? Candace. Yeah, Candace. Yes. Come up to the podium and state your names, please. Yeah. Uh, Chris Todd. Raise the microphone a little bit. Okay. How's that? Can you hear me? Okay. Alrighty. I'm Chris Todd. Candy Todd. All right. We'll start off. Anybody on the commission have any questions? Yeah. So, going back through my notes from 2023, it appears that this is exactly what was submitted back then. Have there been changes that I'm not seeing on the drawings or Well, back in 23, I had hired a outside agency to represent me and um he actually didn't even show up for the meeting. He didn't even have any communication at all with the city. Um, and he was fired, but uh did not do so I didn't I wasn't even aware that the meeting was occurring. Uh I just kind of handed it over, let him handle it. But um uh before we I just want to preface something on um the gazeos. Prior to the construction of the gazeos, um I met with Ryan Green. I came in to the city. Uh, initially I wanted a permit for um patio structures to come out forward. I wanted to kind of enhance

the front of the the the the property a little bit. Uh, it just kind of needed something architecturally. So, um, after talking with Ryan, we, you know, we both agreed, he he suggested, uh, gazeos and, um, so, um, I go, "Well, okay, let's submit for permits." And he goes, "Well, because they're under a certain square footage, a permit isn't required." So, I actually came in to, uh, get a permit for those gazeos, and I was given the clearance to go ahead and build them, and a a permit wasn't required, and that was by Ryan Green. And so we went ahead and and started construction. He even stopped by a time or two. Uh talked to me and my builder and he goes, "Oh yeah, these look great." Measured them. They're inside 200 square ft. So that's why we went ahead and put up the gazeos versus uh maybe a covered patio because the the covered patio they denied. They said you can't build on because it doesn't meet the setbacks because everything has changed. Actually, with the setbacks, the house wouldn't even your with your new setbacks, the house couldn't even be built there. Um, but so, um, it was agreed that gazeos would be the way to go. It just needed something. We wanted cover on the front of the house and that was in the original meeting never brought forth. So, that was one of the things that, you know, I wanted to bring up today is that we did try to permit these things and we were told that a permit was not required. So, um that that being said, but the fence on the other hand, we did not. We just put the fence in and that was bad on me. But as far as the uh the gazeos go, we thought we were doing the right thing. So, I mean, they were very, very expensive to put in. we wouldn't just arbitrarily

build these things and um you know hope they wouldn't be noticed. We knew they were going to be significant and uh anyway um we tried to design them ranch style tie in with the house same roof line everything. Um and uh so this is where this is where we're at. Yeah. right there as a good good and then Ryan did come in stopped by periodically and like I said uh he said it looked good um and you know measured said we're within the 200 square ft requirement of you know not needing a uh a permit and then it wasn't until after they were built that we found out that they needed to go through historical preservation to get some sort of uh to get the site Yeah, permit the preservation is more of like the aesthetic approval, right, that precedes per building permit. And unfortunately at the time, Ryan never mentioned it. We didn't even know we had to go through that process. So, we thought we were doing the right thing and that's kind of where we're at right now. And of course, Ryan is not the building official anymore, so we're kind of missing that. Yeah. That link. Uh for this hearing. So he didn't leave uh any records or anything indicating that visit of the Noor not that I'm aware of. No. Again we do have that uh permit for the remodel, you know, running alongside that, but that was for interior modifications. was the on the east side of the build. Was that an ad added on? I'm just looking at the original house that looks

like a uh an individual home. And did you add remodel uh to the east of of the original structure? East side. The east side. That would be Oh, on the alley side on the alley. Was that added on or that was the original? The the only thing and it was on the original permit is we enclosed that breezeway in towards the center there. Um yeah, right to the left of the garage. There. Yeah, right where the arrow is. And that was permitted. That was all Yeah. Everything that we did was on the permit. Um um but yeah, as far as the east side of the building, we're we submitted new permits for that side. We haven't started that side yet. Yeah. So, the original house wasn't as large as the structure that we're seeing right now. Uh we didn't do we didn't add any exterior um you know, square footage to it. There is a shed that was added to the west side. Uh it's about 4x4 tied into the side of the building. It's for mechanical room. It's really kind of tough to see. You can Yeah, I think it's behind it's like that tree. Yeah, it's kind of tucked in right there. It's just big enough for a hot water heater. And new information. Um apparently Ryan did put a condition on the remodel permit. I don't know at what point in the timeline this happened, but that the gazeos and fence need to be permitted separately. And and the way this happened was we had well a prior commissioner and one commissioner who live on Mount Vernon. So I think they they were the ones to notice it, you know, and bring it forth to staff in 2023.

Yeah, that was um they had been constructed completely. Uh we had just started paint and when we got a cease and assist order um saying they need to be permitted, but we had already been giving the AOK to put them in. This came after they were built that I mean we we we went in trying to get the permit. We're told we didn't need a permit. built them and then it was after they were built that we were, you know, instructed that a permit was actually needed. So, that's where we're at. That's Rick Sprain. Um, this came before us was November 3rd of 23 and it was denied 5 to2 because of the fence and the ramadas. Have you and I believe on the 402 side the fence wasn't complete yet. I went back and looked at the pictures. It was built. The structure was completely built, but the metal was not in. It was already ordered in Sydney, but it was not in. It was not in. And have you done anything to mitigate since the year and a half to bring it to code to try to move anything to actually go by what was submitted for the wood rather than what you have with the metal? Well, I may uh step in there. We wanted commission approval for that modification. correct it, right? Well, it was a little bit nebulous. It was like, bring us an alternative, but it wasn't really specified for the fence, for the gazebo. Um, so what you know was provided that gazeos, there's really not anything you can do to besides moving them. Um but you know this this is a modification right and that was submitted in 2023 and again for this one and that's not what we ended up

with. Um if I recall back I looked real quick. Um we denied yeah both the remada and the fence to be modified to show what they actually I think did in the plans and I think we discussed actually having the normas moved back so they were in compliance and on the original drawing the fence wasn't even in it that was in the 23 the fence wasn't on that one it's highlighted in pink that wasn't on the one it submitted in 23 I don't believe So, I'd have to, you know, I didn't include the 23 presentation in the folder here. Um, you know, cuz we basically, what we did is we had, um, Mr. Todd just apply a new for preservation because it had gotten well, it it basically expired. Um, so we had to renew it. And these are the materials submitted with under the new permit or project rather. Yeah, because I have the the the original one and everything in pink on there was other than the Ramat is was not included. So that that's new for the fence because I believe we rejected because of the metal on it and it had the uh the coverings on the post or something like that. Yeah, you can see it like Yeah. Oh, actually um Oh, I have the fencing. There are split rail fence in fact right in front of the library. Uh there are uh metal fences running horizontal. There's also rod iron fences. No. No. But the library isn't in this district. It isn't. But you're using it as an example as a building a property in close proximity that has Yeah. And similar railings grab inspiration from fencing

around. I mean, there's also chain link fencing. Uh there it's it's all over the place. That doesn't mean it's within the specs of the historical pres preservation part of it. Some of that is old, but doesn't make it fitting to do it. Just because somebody else has it doesn't mean you can go ahead and do it or because the library has a picture of it from some place in the past. Um but and again, we we're willing to do whatever it takes. We're the we we totally are on board with the whole, you know, preserving the historical aspect of the neighborhood and and uh that was a a suggestion that I just drafted up that give it that planking, you know, the two horizontal planks from, you know, back in 56 when it was built. So I I mean if you know I mean there's stuckle columns throughout the whole community. It's just a matter of you know getting um whatever you want between the posts. Uh we're trying to make it aesthetically pleasing and and um to to the neighborhood, trying to keep in that time period. And adding that planking would uh I mean that that's like a 6 inch wide plank all the way through would would give it that original look. Diane Travis again. So, if we were to ask you to remove the CMU capping and add that wooden planking to give take it back to the ranch style, you'd be okay with that? Uh, yeah, because there's ways I can leave the plank. I could just cap it. I could create a, you know, a piece that covers it. Um, the You're talking the col the top of the columns. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The caps. What? Yeah. Is

that what you're talking? cap of the railing, the fence railing. No. Okay. Yeah. What What do you want done on those? The removal of the CMU capping. Yeah, I don't have a problem with that. Okay. Um, you brought up you've got permits for an additional remodel, and this isn't part of our review today, but I have some concerns because I can see changes have been made that haven't come up in front of us, such as closing in one of the breezeways. And it appears that one of the windows has been changed. That was all on the original permitting. I haven't touched that, but it Kaylee, it didn't come before us. No. Oh, that Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. That area and then Yeah, the breezeway to the left of the garages and the window to the left of the garage. Yes, there have been window replacements done. Um, I believe this window right here, is that one that rolls up? Every single window in that house is new. Yes. Was permitted. Yeah. The other house hasn't been touched. The original sizes of the windows are all, you know, we haven't changed the size. Uh that is an awning window in the beginning. Yeah. Awning windows opens like that. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. Awnings are very common, you know, awning windows. That's just where it opens from the top up. I'm just I'm just looking at the style of the window, what it used to be to what it is now. And my concern is the windows were replaced without coming before us as well. And I know that's not something we're voting on today, but trust is kind of being undermined here by having things done. I disagree. Everything on the blueprint, it shows we are replacing the original windows. Um they inspected they actually came out and did inspections throughout

construction and that enclosed breezeway was I had to show I have a full set of plans. I hired an architect and he had to show before pictures existing construction and after. So the enclosed breezeway was part of the uh permitted uh you know process permitting process. All the windows were um up front known to be getting changed out. All of that was uh upfront. Nothing was hidden. All I mean that's that's why it took two years to get the permits. Okay. Yeah. We're kind of getting off of why we're here today, but I that's part of the process and I was just concerned, you know. Yeah. Okay. You've got it permitted, but yeah, why I wanted to bring up why hasn't it come? Why didn't the windows in the breezeway come before us? But yeah, I'd like to get back to the fence and the romas, I guess. Yeah, it was a matter of getting, you know, the horse. No, the cart before the horse. Yeah, the horse usually does go before the cart. Other way around. So, um, yes. So, yeah, that kind of complicates it adds another layer of complication. Um, and I feel like we're in a retroactive, not proactive position with this whole project. That's my concern. Yes, we are. We are. That's what makes it challenging, right? The fence, yes. The gazeos, no. We did what we were supposed to do. We did what we were supposed to do. We came to the city, requested permits, were told we didn't need permits, given the go-ahehead to go ahead and build them, built them, and then it was after the fact that, you know, we were told no, it's got to go

through preservation. So, anyway, the fence, yes, but the gazeos we did correctly, as well as the um the whole uh permitting process on the the original structure. Oh, I was just going to add that, you know, we didn't even know there was a preservation committee, so this is kind of new to us. Yeah, we we didn't buy a historical home with a registry or anything. And I didn't think even the house was in a historical district until I've learned, you know, through this process. So, it's not like we were, to your point, Diane, 100% we wanted to be trusted. We have no desire to be retroactive in this. So this is where you come in. Your judgment comes in. You know, I provide the analysis in the staff report. And uh so our options for a motion is basically have them leave it as it is. We could say redo the fence, bring it within code, and then we still have to deal with the remod. Yes, we'll have to make a motion that's specific. Well, you can put both the same motion, but you we have to address both the gazeos and fencing. So, and really probably more appropriate appropriate would say be move to approve with modifications rather than stipulations. So, that would that would work to modify. Well, depending on what the motion to modify the fence to Yeah, they're original their original design with the wood and removing the caps. Yes. If you if you I could do a section of the fence, get it to that point where you're agreeable and then we can move on with the whole fence. I could take one section of it, say on the alley side,

and we could get together, you know, I can present certain modifications. In fact, Candy came up with some really cool wagon wheels, uh, give it that ranch look that we could do the planking. I don't know if you want to show them on your phone. Yeah. Do you want to see it? No. That's an idea, you know, for like just saying go do the whole thing, you know. I think maybe that that is a good idea to do just a less visible portion of it. Yeah. Then I can go out there and take pictures. Of course. Yeah. Well, I was thinking speaking as a preservation specialist, I think just the planks would be preferable just because we don't have wagon walls. Yes, that's a little unique, right? Uh points for creativity. We're just So Diane Travis, again, I'm just going to let you guys know my position. I think I would be okay with the CMU caps being removed and the planking added to make it appear to be ranch style. Again, as far as the ramada, that's kind of a sticky wicket because someone at the city told you you could leave it there. does not make, you know, it does not follow preservation guidelines. I'm kind of torn there. The alternative was either to move it back 2 feet closer to the house because it's settled. Yeah. For technical purposes, we uh allowed this the southern property line to be considered the side because of how the lots were originally platted. For aesthetic purposes, anyone looks at it, that south side is

the front, right? Um but we did, you know, have some leeway there and that if that was considered the front by planning, they'd have to be 25 feet back, which just wouldn't work. Um I think there is an issue though if we set it back two more feet um we won't have the uh desired separation that fire likes to see which is 10 ft between a house and another structure. Yeah, between structures. So it is indeed a sticky wicket because they look like there something that should have been in the backyard rather than that was in the front yard. making the front yard look like the backyard. That's how I look at it. That's what the guidelines really call for like you know I said in my more detailed analysis and I said you know the materials are appropriate is just the sighting sighting is an issue sight sighting. So did you say that the originals platting was this was the back the south side was the back part of the house and it would be the side. So the way these are like they're like key lots that the fronts are were on um it's an old plat. So the front of the properties were considered to be along Pleasant Street, right? With kind of this uh orientation of the front, you know, being more narrow and it when you go over to Mount Vernon, that's how the homes are. This one's kind of unique in its orientation and of course that it's on a corner. So let's

any more questions? Do we have someone to make a motion then? And again, sorry, it's 24-012. You don't have to add necessarily all the jargon with the dimensions, but again, we do have to um specifically address the fencing and the gazeos. So for the purpose of making a motion, uh Diane Travis here, I move to a prove with a amendments the fence. Remove the CMU cap. Add the wood planks. the ramadas. I'm going to move to approve them. Okay. And before we um go forward with a second regarding the fencing, he's going to do a section of it. Do you want that to come back to preservation or will you defer to my judgment on that? I will defer to your judgment. Okay. I I should I think you should come back. Okay. So, we we need four to to pass that motion. So, you could Well, we need a second first. Correct. We have a second to Diane's motion. I second the motion. Okay. All in favor? I I oppose.

Four to one. Four to one. It passes. Okay. And then you'll be in contact with me regarding modifying the fence. Just put up a section and I'll come out. Okay. What would you like to see that that cap once we remove it? Just blocked over. I think just stuck over the top. Yeah. Like the rest of the columns are. Okay. Less modern, more ranched out. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you guys for your time. All right. Thank you. And I have some staff updates. Okay. So, as you can see, um, Michael Michael Murko stepped down. You know, I'm not going to go into it, but he said due to personal reasons. Um, hence we have Rick for the chair. But the way um I don't it's not necessarily the bylaws but the establishing ordinance for PPC uh states that the commission themselves votes on the new chair and vice chair. So I'll be I have to agendaize that for the next meeting. So just keep that in mind. Uh the clerk is aware and they will be posting the vacancy. We're looking to fill that. Um item number two. So, the state and national preservation scape. Um, I went to the state conference down in Phoenix a couple weeks ago. Um, the we're in interesting times. Uh, funding is frozen at the federal level right now. Um so the draft bill right now seeks to zero out the national uh preservation fund starting next year. Um it seeks to just push preservation down to a local level only. So the state office receives funding

directly from the feds. So as we stand now without you know that signature um the state offices will close in August. Yeah. So how you can help and I've been doing this you can write uh elected officials as well as contact the league of a cities and towns because this will have a really detrimental effect. Um, Shipo also supplies us with those CLG grant monies. They supply us with technical assistance. Um, so that it the the undercurrent at the conference was a little more subdued this year, I'd say. Um, number three, master plan update. Making progress. I just, you know, it's a beast. It's 600 so pages. So, I'm just going chapter by chapter each week editing current content. Um, some good news is when I went to the conference, the state's like, "We have leftover grant money that we need to spend." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So, we got approved to apply for another CLG grant. Um, it's going to help with I won't go too much into it, but we have this um software called Arches that is an opensource GIS. Uh, it's a historic resource management software. Uh, Cat was the one who looked into that and contracted. So, the grant money will cover the annual subscription to that. Um, Cat has agreed to stay on to help write the new content for chapters because we have six chapters that need to be created a new. And honestly, for for my sanity and just for

to keep it moving forward, I've been focusing on editing existing content. Um, and then possibly monies for a consultant to do public outreach. Um I I will email you guys my updated timeline that I provided as an attachment to council. Um so again commission review will occur in fall early winter and that is all I have. I kind of want to touch on the shipo thing also. Um the money does run out at the end of August. And Shipo for the state has nine employees. Seven of them will be laid off. Two of them will still be there, but they're paid by parks. And all the money that goes to Shipo, it's not tax dollars. It's actually from oil producing rigs and the oil companies. It's all a tax on the drilling and stuff. So, yes. Interesting. It's interesting how that happens. Um, I'm going to be affected by it. One of my other duties that I do, I am the um for the prescuit portion of the site steward program. That will be abolished. We have about 500 volunteers, only one paid employee for the state and his position will be removed. But we have 500 volunteers and I think about 3,500 sites that we monitor throughout Arizona that are historical. Um that it's it's clearly kind of sad. We do everything from old forts to the Indian ruins to a little bit of everything. But that'll be wiped away. Um in Ohio, it's already been taken

away. They already lost their money, so they've already laid off everybody. And I hope we don't do that here. And like I said, if we can get our representatives to do something, it would be greatly appreciated. Right. You can Yeah. write to them. I wrote to the congressmen um state representatives and in my I didn't hear back from them. Uh I'm I'm going to keep emailing. So like in my email, I cited like specific examples of why preservation is important to prescuit. I think that helps or I hope it helps. Can you email uh us copies of what you sent in? Sure. Yes. Okay. And we have two new members on the board. If you could just introduce yourselves real quick and just kind of tell us who you are. I'm Rick Kimry. Um actually a newcomer to this town. I've been here for total of about eight years. Uh four years the second time. Uh I'm an architect local here in Prescuit and uh do anything I can to help this town kind of remain its charm but allow things to uh move on and progress. I'm Janelle Valhansf and I've been visiting Prescuit because my parents have lived here for 10 years, but I just permanently relocated here in 21. And I came because uh it's a smaller town, bigger to you guys now than it was, but to me, small town. Um I loved the charm, loved the people and everything about it. I have a history in real estate development. I was one of the good ones, I promise. Um, and I feel like what my history has been can help benefit the commission and the city of Prescuit. And

I am also interested in uh maintaining the charm that it has now, but processing what we need to process. Thank you. We're we're happy to have you both. Okay. Anything else? That's all I have. Meeting is a journ.