Environment, Agriculture & Natural Resources Committee - Regular Meeting

I've I've called the meeting to order. Amy, could we do the role?

Sure. Supervisor Dulin. Dulin here. Supervisory Chavla.

Chavla here.

Supervisor Peters. Here. Supervisor Baruchip?

Here.

Supervisor Merritt? Supervisor Smith? And chair down.

Is here.

K. Well, we have a forum. I will go ahead and be chairing the meeting today. What we're gonna do is we're gonna start our joint meeting at 05:30. So LCC is gonna go now. We're gonna get through the LCC items probably by 05:30, and then we'll have our joint meeting. At the conclusion of our joint meeting, LCC will adjourn first, then Lakes and Watershed can conclude their business and adjourn second, and then Einar will finish our business last and adjourn third. So, that's just a little overview of what we're doing here. Up next, we have b, consideration of minutes. I'll entertain a motion here.

Moved by.

Okay. Alright. So moved by June. Any questions or discussion on the minutes? Not seeing any. All those in favor of approval, aye.

Aye.

Opposed? Abstentions? Okay. That passes. C, fund transfers, none. D, referrals, resolutions, and ordinance amendments, none. E, items requiring committee action. We have two items here. And, Amy, I think we have to vote on both of these. Right?

Yep.

Yeah. Okay. So we'll go first with twenty twenty five act two seventy one. I'll entertain a motion on this.

Dual votes to approve.

Alright. Moved by Dualin for approval. And then, Amy, do you wanna give us an overview of this one?

Me make this bigger so you can actually see it. So every year at the end of the year, we have to submit a report to the Department of Ag Trading Consumer Protection on the cost share contracts that didn't get constructed or finished in this calendar year, and we are allowed to extend those projects for one year. So this is our draft list of projects that we need to extend. Most of them are due to either listed unavailability of contractors. We have snow now, and we can't we could also put weather down there as as another reason why these are mostly either gutter projects or there's a parks project in there as well that won't be done until next year.

And so this is our draft list. It's due December 31. If any of these projects do wrap up for that, we will take them off the list. If there's any projects that aren't on the list, we will add them at the end of the year before the end of the year to submit that report to DACA, and then we do the final report in January so you see what was officially done. So, typically, we've made the motion to approve it and allow us to submit in December any edited documents.

Great. Thanks, Amy. Do we have any committee member questions or discussion?

Don't even have a question. So, Amy, we've really seen all these before and had an opportunity to ask questions about them. Right?

Correct. These are all they've all gone through the committee already.

Great.

These just haven't been completed for construction, and it's the paperwork that we need to submit to DATCap to keep the funding tied to them.

Okay. So we've got enough money. Right?

Yep.

Alright. Thank you.

Good. Any further questions or discussion? I'm not seeing any. I will go ahead and take a vote on that. All those in favor, aye. Aye. Opposed? Abstentions? Alright. That passes. Up next, we got 2025 Act two seventy two, cost share contract extensions county programs. I'll entertain a motion on this.

So I'll move to your meeting.

Moved by Jewel. And, Amy, can you give us an overview of this one?

Yep. So this is very similar to the DACAP report. These are, we follow the same process for any projects that are funded with county funding. So these are the projects, based on the different funding sources that are getting carried over because they haven't, completed their work yet, and we haven't finished paying them out. So, usually, the work has to be done by November 30.

If it isn't, we extend it into the next year. The first set of projects are for the our implementation program with a listing of the projects there, our ordinance funds with the projects listed, there. Our continuous cover program, we also carry over. And then what we call our CPI or conservation practice implementation funding pool has a number of projects in it. A lot of grazing and fencing projects that are being carried over.

And then finally, new this year, we received funding from MMSD, Yahara Winds to do cover crops in the Lower Yahara Watershed, and we're trialing a two year contract for those. So we had to carry over those tracks as well for the second year.

Perfect. Thanks, Amy. Do we have any committee member questions or discussion? Not seeing any. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Opposed? Extensions? Okay. Items F and G, we're gonna take on as a joint committee. We have H, future meeting items and dates. January 22, it'll be the next meeting via joint meeting with Einar. Amy, I don't think we have any public comment here maybe for the joint meeting. So I have public comments on item not on the agenda. None.

Jay, such other business is led by law. None. And so if there's no objection, we'll just, what's the word when you'd, like, stop? When you

yeah.

What's that word? Reset. Reset. That's the one. We'll recess until 05:30 until we start our joint convention.

Okay. So it's 05:30. LCC is back in session. With that, we're gonna call both Lakes and Watershed and Eater into session as well. Mister Levin, would you like to open the Lakes and Watershed Commission meeting?

I'll call the board around. Do you wanna get the attendance? Sure. I'll be rolling. Thank you.

Deal Larson?

L Lemon? Yes.

Yep.

Dan? Here.

Phil Gaeler? I'm here.

Steve?

Here. Supervisor? Here. And David Clark? Here. Here for?

Alright. Great. And then we're gonna call, the Environment, Ag, and Natural Resources Committee to order. Laura, can you take the role,

please? Supervisor Downing.

Is here.

Supervisor Marin. Supervisor Peters. Here. Supervisor Garushak.

Here.

Youth governance Gienka. Here. Here.

Okay. Well, we have a forum. So what we're gonna do is since we're in the joint meeting right now, we're gonna start with, f and g, the presentation and reports to committee. And, Laura, did we have any registrants who are wishing to speak?

We don't have any wishing to speak. Treaty Mark Clark is online, in support of the, g two update on proposed amendments to chapter 71, and she is available if the committees have any questions.

K. Great. Again, if anyone here wants to speak, you can also register to speak as well. Why don't we just go, right to presentations, item f? And then when we resume, we'll go back to the beginning of our business. So we're gonna start with f presentations, presentation on the influence of boat generated waves on lake shorelines and aquatic captives.

Mhmm. So it's normal network. It's gonna be.

Doing test. Alright. I'm not sure where the best place to stand is in here. So Dave and I will just stand up here

and hopefully that works for you. Maybe the microphone's right

in the middle of room. Okay. We'll talk that way. Hopefully, we'll be good to go. Alright. So hello, everybody. My name is Kyle Minx. I'm the Lakes Manager here in the Lincoln Land and Water Resources Department. In Water. Sorry. What did I say? Lakes. Lakes and Water. Okay. Thank you.

Dave is with the Lakes Manager with Land and Water Resources Department, I'm and the Watershed Manager with the Department, so sorry about that. And we got presentations tonight based on the influence of boat generator waves on Lakeshore lines and product habitat. This presentation stemmed from a topic that the Lakes and Watershed Commission has been interested in learning more about, the impacts of waves, wake boats, other impacts that are currently out there within the community. And so tonight's presentation is really focused more on just information sharing. We've got some resources and links that are available in there that folks can hopefully go back to to gather more information as this was just a topic that they're generally interested in.

And so kind of just the overview, a few things we're going to talk about, Dave and I, is a little bit focused specifically on the impacts of waves. Some of the recent studies that are out there, there certainly has been a number of them over the years and, some more recent ones have certainly come to light, over the past year. And then, the last one here is just a little update on some of the municipal and state actions around wake boats, wave impacts that are out there just to kind of inform you all on what's currently going out there across the state as well as local.

It's not the basic model. Do they click?

No.

PowerPoint please on mute?

Pretty bad.

Alright. So let's start out a little bit with some of the concerns, and I've got wake boat concerns up here. But when I say wake boat, I'm not talking about the specific type or model of boats that are out there. Depending on your knowledge, there is a particular boat that's called a wake boat that's designed specifically to generate large large waves. But for the context of tonight's talk, it's really focused on any boat that's used, modified or operated in a manner that's generating large waves.

So we're not picking out any particular type of activity in the water, but really just trying to share the information and the science related to wave impacts on how they operate, in the water. So one of the big concerns is shoreline erosion. So certainly, those folks that live on the lakes are familiar with winds and waves and how they can erode. Certainly, we run into the same scenarios and situations with boats as they're traversing across our lakes and generating those waves, that energy enters the bank, erodes the shorelines, and then that sediment and materials can then come into the lake and cause nutrient issues, sediment issues, and a lot of other challenges with our lake ecosystems. Additionally, there's also some concerns around water recreation.

People like to recreate differently on our water bodies. And certainly when you're in smaller crafts or crafts that are closer to the water, whether that's paddleboards, kayaks, they're certainly more subjective to capsizing, tipping over, when waves are generated, versus when the lakes

are coming.

Additionally, other concerns are not only on the surface, but also under the water, subsurface, When we look at large waves and the way that boats are operated during that activity, we can see issues with both the lake bed. That means like the sediments at the bottom of the lake, the vegetation that's at the bottom of the lake. And then internally, when those become suspended, we also can see interactions between whether it's the nutrients or the sediment and how those interact within the water column themselves, contaminants or nutrients that could be interacting with the water just above that lake bed. There's also concerns on the aquatic invasive species side. So certainly depending on, how you're operating your craft across the water, there's the ability to take on water into that boat to generate a larger wave, either in ballasts or in they call them bladders, which are large bags that you can fill with water.

And so if you're in a water body that has aquatic invasive species, there's potential for bringing those invasive species into those ballast areas or bags. And then if you go into a different water body, introduce those same product invasives and achieve it by different body of water. So those are kind of the major concerns, that are out there related to this type of wake load activity. Dave, I'll hand it over to you.

Okay. And so some just basic, physics on wave energy. You've got, the amplitude or wave height, the frequency, how quickly they're coming. And then specifically because we're talking about operating in a boat with an enhanced or a larger wave, we want to talk about when that amplitude or the wave height is increased, what does it mean for the energy? And there is a proportional relationship there that's not linear.

It's actually to the the the second power. And so as you get a a taller wave, the relative energy increases more than just in a one to one relationship. It's squared. And so with a two foot wave, you actually have four times as much energy. And and with a three foot wave, have nine times. So it's it's proportional. It's not linear.

K? But that's yep. Yeah.

Kyle slide it. So but that's the basic physics behind the wave is that the idea that when you do have a larger wave or enhanced amplitude, it actually has way more energy. So we're gonna talk about a couple of different types of waves. And this diagram shows two boats operating in two different manners. The boat on the left is planing across the surface.

So if a fishing boat or a boat that normally goes across creates these divergent waves that come off the back of the boat and go towards shore and push out and are doing that. This boat on the right is either in called semi displacement or displacement, and it's plowing through the water. So it's not playing across the top of the water, but the boat is at an angle. Now this could be a wake boat that's designed to create this wave. And so these both divergent waves that are coming off the side and the transverse waves that are coming create a trough that the wake boat people, when they're recreating, they're either surfing this wave and they're not attached to the boat, or they could be wakeboarding this wave with a rope attached to the boat.

They can operate in different ways. But they're using this enhanced wave and the wake of the boat to actually recreate. And so that's where the wake boat comes from is that they're they're recreating on the wave. And so a planing boat has a smaller wave with less energy. The the boat that's operating in semi displacement speeds are plowing.

Or you can run a normal boat at, like, half throttle, and it'll do that too. It'll never get up on top of the water and start the plane, and it will also create these transverse waves and divergent waves going towards the shore. This diagram, and this is from the St. Anthony Falls study, which I'll talk about a little bit, is meant to show the three different hydrodynamic phenomena that are happening as a wake boat or a boat that's operating in the semi displacement mode is creating. And the first are there underneath the boat, there is a bow pressure wave.

So you can imagine the boat is pushing and it's compressing the water, and those forces are down and ahead. And then as the boat passes, there's actually a stern pressure wave, which is in the opposite direction. As that water rebounds from the bow pressure, It actually pushes water to the back and up. And so you've got a bowel pressure wave, a stern pressure wave. And when we watch the videos in a little bit, you'll see these clearly on the lake bed sediments.

And then you have these big transverse waves, which are the the as you you've pushed through, now the wave comes up and the gravity, this is like a wave that you'd have from a wind generated wave. The water is trying to fall back down the hill and creating a big transverse gravity wave. In water, and this is why, like, surfing on the ocean works is the those orbital patterns go down deeper than just the surface. So it's not just waves at the surface, but the the the fetch of the lake, if it's bigger and the waves are bigger, will actually drive these waves down deeper. And if you've ever been at the ocean when a wave gets to shore and it breaks, it's because the energy in these deeper orbital patterns is pushing up and causing the wave to crest over and break.

And so that's happening in these transverse waves that are behind the boat too, and you'll see that in the video how these orbital circulation patterns from the wave, the energy actually causes lake bed, the sediments to be disturbed. And then the third phenomenon so the first were the power and pressure waves. The second were these transverse gravity waves. The third phenomenon is the wash coming out in the back of the boat. So because the boat is angled like this and it's creating a semi displacement operational pattern, the the prop wash of the the the propulsion system is going down into the water column and disturbs the water column and possibly the bottom of the lake depending on the angle, and the videos will show kind of what the studies found that we're looking at that.

And so, the two the the things to talk about with and Kyle brought up here are the things or the concerns, are those divergent waves coming into shore, the bow and pressure waves, the transverse gravity waves, and the and the prop wash are all things that these recent studies are gonna investigate. So hopefully, did a pretty good job of explaining some of the physics behind the waves. So the first study that I wanna talk about, and we're just gonna give the conclusions of the study, was done by a laboratory at the University Arizona called the Saint Anthony Falls Laboratory, and this is report number 600. So if you wanna look it up and and and read the study for yourself, that's the report number. It was published in 2022, and it's looking specifically at those divergent waves as they come into shore.

And they were measuring using field. This is a field study, so it's not a theoretical study or a literature study. It's actually going out the field and measuring using, devices that boat in a semi displacement operation does generate larger and more powerful waves than planing. That's obvious. That's why they want to use the boats in a semi displacement because they're making bigger waves to recreate on. Wake boats create a larger, more powerful wake waves than non wake boats. Again, pretty obvious. Aftermarket devices on regular ski boats can also generate large maximum wave height, energy, and power. So you can take a normal boat and put other things on it. So Kyle talked about balance.

You can put weight in the boat. You can put fins on. So aftermarket devices can make regular boats that would normally would plane can also operate in this semi displacement mode, and they're creating more powerful waves too. And then the real big conclusion from this study was if you're operating a boat in semi displacement mode, you would need to operate 500 feet away from shore to have the same amount of energy reach shore as a planing boat would at 200 feet. K?

So they said what they did to make comparison was is how much energy from from a planing boat would hit the shoreline at at 200 feet? How far out would that wake boat or the semi displacement operating boat have to be? And the similar amount of energy, the answer is 500 feet. So they did kind of a a a trans a study that they they estimated the amount of energy and said, okay. To be equivalent, how far how much further out would

it have to be?

And the answer, they came up with it and that patent paper was five. The next study, is also from the Saint Anthony Falls lab in in University of Minnesota. And this was instead of looking at those divergent waves, was specifically looking at the press stern and pressure waves and those transverse waves coming off the back as well as the propeller wash. So bow and stern pressure waves initiate the movement of lakebed instead of it. So even on planing boats, when a planing boat goes over, you see that pressure from the boat pushing on the water column as it travels over, creates a small disturbance on the bed of the water.

But these transverse waves, the big waves following the boat and the propeller wash are really what lifted and training the sediment into the water column and disturb the water column. Their recommendation to limit environmental impacts were that all boats operate in 10 feet of water or greater when planing to minimize the impact. So all the boats that they studied in their study, and they had two different types of wake boats and two different types of of planing boats, they said need to operate in 10 feet or greater. On non wake boats in displacement, so even a non wake boat, a regular boat, when they're just starting out, should operate in greater than 10 feet of water. Wake boats should operate in 20 feet of water or greater when in semi displacement mode to minimize the impact.

So when they're planning and they're generating an enhanced wake in that semi displacement mode, they should operate 20 feet of water or greater. And in general, both should avoid areas of the lake with aquatic vegetation to minimize damage to the aquatic vegetation. There's another study that was published this last summer, by a lake district. They hired a firm called Terra Vigilus, Lake Beulah in Southeast Wisconsin, and they were studying their lake already. But they really wanted to see is the lake being damaged.

And so they went out there with, video and, infield devices. They found evidence in the lake that wake boats are impacting Lake Bula. The aquatic plants and the lake bottom are being disturbed, so they found patterns in the lake. And that lake has critical habitat designated areas that are buoyed off and supposed to be slowing awake and people aren't operating in, and regular boats were operating in that too. So but they did feel that they found evidence that the wake boats are impacting the plants in the lake bottom.

They found same thing by measuring the wave energy that the energy and wave height are three or four times greater than ski. So it kinda corroborates the first thing, Anthony Falls. And then it also corroborates the second Saint Anthony Falls study where they observed impacts on the lake at fifteen and twenty one foot depths when they had devices on the bottom of the lake measuring the wave energy and video taping. And so we've got a couple videos to play that show and I'll turn it over to Kyle to narrate the video. But you'll see those hydrodynamic phenomenon as the boats pass over, whether it's a planing boat or a wake boat in semi displacement mode that you see the first the bow and pressure waves, and it's kind of a front and then a rock back.

But then after, if if you've got transverse waves or prop wash, you'll see the big difference in the video of the two different, hydrodynamics phenomenon. So this is a regular boat planing over. Right?

You have about thirty seconds into that one. There's a lot of repeats

in the videos. I wasn't able to clip them specifically what

we wanted to show you. So all the resources are linked here below so you can go back and look at them. But this is a boat operating in nine feet of water. It's a camera view looking down at the sediments, and this is a boat operating on plane. And so based on the science and the research that Dave just went through, you'll see it's passing over. It's a little bit of time lag, but there was no real disturbance to the sediments. So if you

and I encourage you if you're really interested, go to the websites of these and you can watch these videos. And you really can see that the bow wave first rocks the sediment and the plants forward, but not lifting anything up into the water column, and then the stern wave rocks it back.

So the shadowing effect you see is the bow going over. This is in 14 feet of water versus nine feet. And you can see on plane there's some uplifting of material, but it's relatively undisturbed in comparison to the next video.

They're kinda running kinda floating. They are.

That would go slightly. One thirty.

That's

that video was perfect.

It's a different video. Yeah. It's not linked, so it must have changed the path on We're working with all the tests that it wasn't in

Yeah.

Try the next slide, please.

There you go. Now we got the right one. The

videos are nice because I think

they lend you a little bit

better 15.

Yep. Side. Yeah. That'll work. Right there. So this is

a picture again of nine feet of water in that semi displacement mode. The energy, the waves,

all So go back to the just play this one from

the beginning. Can you see

the bow stirring pressure wave, and then you see the prop wash and this the track like, this is a pretty good view of exactly what happens. So there's the shadow of the boat. There's your bow wave and your stern wave, and then now you get the prop wash coming through with the bubbles from the exhaust of the boat. And it's lifting and then train the lake bed sediments up into the water column as opposed to just rocking the sediment then.

Yeah. And so I encourage those that wanna see more videos. We do have the links and and they'll be included within the presentation. This one is showing it operations in nine feet. They did a similar study over 14 feet of water. Again, this is what happens when boats are operated in that displacement mode or kind of that wake enhancement mode versus the first video we're showing when boats are on plane, Right? And and that's just I won't say full polar, but moving at faster speeds out of the water across the water.

Okay. Let's slide. You're good.

You can start the next slide. All right. So just a little bit on the last bullet item that we had here, wrapping things up a little bit, which is some of both the local and state kind of actions that have been taken around wake enhancement and waves. The first bullet I have here is just kind of the authority that comes from local ordinances and regulations. So within Wisconsin State Statute 30.77 is the rules that give the local towns, villages, municipalities to enact local ordinance, regulating their water bottles.

So if you go to like DNR's website, they have here DNR guidance kind of on how local municipalities could approach that if they so choose, what some of the templates are, what some of the ordinances are that are out there or just different resources. And then lastly, you probably are reading a lot of stuff in the news about a lot of towns that are taking up their own ordinances trying to regulate this type of activity on the lake. In particular, there's been a lot in the northern counties, although there has as of late been a lot more throughout the state of Wisconsin. As of probably a month or so ago, there was 71 local ordinances throughout the state of Wisconsin that have taken actions related to this type of activity. I think in the last year alone, was 25.

So it's certainly the past couple of years has been the most largest uptick in local municipalities enacting rules. When it comes to the state actions, there was a couple legislative bills that were introduced back in 2024, I believe. They're listed here. So LB six fifty six prohibited wake sports within 200 feet offshore and in the lakes 50 acres or less. And it also prohibited more restrictive local ordinances.

This bill, I don't believe was ever voted on or any action was taken on. And then lastly, Senate Bill ten sixteen was another one, that was discussed at committee, but I also believe that was never taken to the floor and no actions were taken on. So those are kind of the state bills that have been kind of out there, across the state of Wisconsin, related to this type of weighted gas activity. And lastly Dave's going to wrap up a little bit just on some of the surveys that have been conducted through the Wisconsin Conservation Congress. Yeah.

So the Wisconsin Conservation Congress is citizen advisory panel to the DNR, and they meet annually in the spring, and they vote on questions about fish and game laws or environmental regulations. And so the environmental committee of the Wisconsin Conservation Congress, so the citizen advisory panel through the DNR, asked the question of would you support the Conservation Congress and legislature creating the new statute that prohibits the use of wakeboard ballast systems on Wisconsin lakes and rivers. It doesn't specifically say about AIS or the operation mode or whatever. In the background of the question, it did bring those up, but this was the exact question that was asked. And so the voting results at that meeting, and the meeting is held now online as well as in person.

So for all the voting people, if you look, it's about a two to one. Yes. People favor a statute that would prohibit that. If you look only at Wisconsin resident votes, it's about the same, two to one or thereabout. And the Dane County, and this includes people who, when they registered, said they do primarily their recreating in the county. So or though they they reside in the county or, attended the Dane County meeting. So again, about two to one. And so through all of those three different demographics, the the vote was about two to one. So that was the environmental committee question. And then the motorized recreation committee also asked two questions.

And the first was, would you support regulations by DNR to require that all ballast systems used have a reasonable and practical means of inspecting the system, confirm that there's no water left. So this one specifically focuses on the aquatic invasive species issue of, moving that stuff. And the voting results are very similar again, about two to one or a little over two to one that people were in favor of some kind of regulation. Then the second question the motorized recreation committee asked is very similar to that other senate bill that Kyle just talked about. So would you support legislation modifying statute to prohibit generation of intentionally magnified wakes for wakesurfing through the use of ballast, design features, operational procedures?

So it really, again, gets at the operation, not the boat itself, but are you gonna operate in a way where it's displacing water on lakes smaller than 1,500 acres, less than 20 feet deep, or maintain a distance from shore? And, again, very similar in the voting that it's about two to one in favor of of some kind of regulation or prohibition in that. So really similar answers to those three questions. There's a lot of discussion that's spreading at the meeting, regarding wake votes. Yeah.

And this slide here is just some links to some other groups and organizations that are throughout the state of Wisconsin that have different resources, information related to the activity of wakeboard operations or just a reference that we'll go back to and look after more.

So I should say, so the Wisconsin Conservation Congress shared their results with the DNR, the the Natural Resources Board with no actions taken. So they said, here is what our participants are and the people who voted at

the meeting

said, and then nothing further really happened. Well,

thanks for the presentation, guys. What we'll do now is we'll have our our question and answer period. If you're online, if you don't mind, since we're a larger group, either raising your hand or asking to be acknowledged in the chat, you can do that. Folks that are in the room, just just grab my attention, and we can open up the floor now for questions. Supervisor Engelblood. Yep. Thank you, mister chairman.

Couple things. Just I'm assuming that the Madison Lids are getting busier and busier early here. Will we track that at all?

As far as recreational use?

Recreation use. Good question. Mean, if you don't know, you might. Okay. Permit service. Right.

One one option.

Right. So we could use the the boat access permit as a way to do it. And, there was, an point intercept study that looked at the owner of recreation, but it wasn't done real. It was so it was studied out in 2012. And then was it

'23 or '24? The the student redid it, but

didn't do it that well. But so unlike, like, a fisheries creel survey where you go out and count the number of anglers, we don't regularly count the number of boaters or use survey techniques that say how busy are the lakes. John's right. We could use the boat life that boat access permit, but that you know, if you come on the lake with a kayak and you never have to buy a permit, you

go to the track.

I'm just I mean, I think it just makes sense that if the busier it gets, the more activity and the lower waves and the same type of thing. Mhmm. And I guess the other question is, how much regulation do we have on the loops? I mean, we control the level

of the pitch. Right? Are we

able to regulate through ordinance, like,

the 200 feet from shore or more if needed? Yeah. So currently, we have a

200 foot. Right, John?

How many foot?

State the. Okay.

So that's a county ordinance? County ordinance. If it

is We have ordinances like chapter 71, which is on the list two for operations for ice bound. There are some out there.

So when you see our our ordinance is the slow and awake ordinance. So, like, the sections of the river where you can't go faster than slow and awake, if the water levels so all that is written in the slow and awake ordinance. So if we would want to add something, we could modify that ordinance that already exists to say add additional language to put in regulation. But that's ours is basically if

the water level gets to a certain level, we gotta have less grade.

No. Already we so in the state of Wisconsin, the normal distance from shore is a 100 feet for planing, and in Dane County, it's

200. So we already have

a more restrictive on the Madison Chain.

200 feet isn't a long distance. Mean Wings of a hockey rink. Yeah. It's not very long when you're on shore to see how far 200 feet is. It's pretty close for a boat to be. But, I mean, you got studies that show at 500 feet, it does damage the same as 200 feet for the different so is there a way we can extend that in certain cases? That's my question.

Yeah. I I think there is a way to do that. Yeah.

Maybe we should take a look at that.

So there's model language in all those boardings that other townships have done, whether it's restricting the way they're operating, whether it's restricting the distances.

So But I'm sure you have people on both sides of

the issue. You know, landowners and recreation people are different on how that how that should be.

And I think one thing that wasn't covered, there's another study back in 2015 that was done down in Orlando, Florida that the people manufacture the five white folks like to reference because I came up a little different. Although if you need to find something,

After going through it. And if you

read that study too, it was some theoretical calculations, not field study like recent studies that we presented tonight. And if

you plug in all the numbers, you have to put zero. But and all the fuck that zero. But, anyways, it it all cares. That's a

you know, this to put on.

I that's well. So our next three speakers are gonna be we have Phil and David online, and then we're gonna have supervisor Blazewitz after them. So, Phil, go ahead.

Hi. So my question is, is there something fundamentally different with the boat created waves, right? We get that front pressure wave, the back wave, and then the prop wash. Is there something fundamentally different than that in a wind drive wave as far as how it impacts the plant vegetation? And then the follow-up question would be then are there certain lakes that historically get larger waves and then they would be excluded from some form of ordinance or have some variability on this.

So I I think, Phil, what I'm hearing from you is for your first question is the fundamental difference that I would see between, like, wind generated waves, is that what you're asking, versus the boat generated waves?

Correct.

Okay. I think the big one there is the prop wash. That's also a component of that. That's that's a different force that's having an impact on the link that's in I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to that. Well, I

would say lake size. And so on big lakes that have long fetch where the wind can act over a long surface of the water, you do have generated larger waves. But on smaller water bodies, yes, the the wind, it can't interact with surface of the lake enough, doesn't generate the same size of waves. And so you have the potential for having larger waves than could be generated on a smaller water body. I also think that the and one thing I didn't talk about, but the the Saint Anthony Falls study was intending to look at was water column mixing.

And you guys know from hearing lots about lakes that in the summertime, our lakes stratify so that the top of the lake is warm. There's a transition layer in the middle and the bottom of the lake is cold. And in our lakes, the cold bottom becomes anoxic in the summer and phosphorus, is available. When oxygen is present, phosphorus gets locked up. And so there's actually a possibility of mixing the water column too, depending on how deep that thermocline sets up.

And your question about wind driven waves versus boat driven waves in small lakes where that thermocline would set up higher and wouldn't be naturally mixed and you have a boat that drives down or uses the prop wash, you could actually have unnatural mixing of the stratified lake. On our larger lakes like Mendota where the thermocline sets up at 18 or 20 feet, maybe that prop wash wouldn't disturb the thermocline but on smaller bodies of water.

Up next, we have David online.

Yeah. Thank you. Just a kind of a two parter here. My understanding is municipalities, if they create an ordinance, the municipality has to enforce that ordinance, as opposed to DNR per se enforcing that ordinance. And then secondly, I I was hoping somebody could speak to the ballast water and invasives and sort of moving those invasives from lake to lake. Because again, just for a little context, my understanding is that often, these boats don't completely drain ballast water, once they leave a lake.

Yeah. To your first question, you're you're right, David. There there is a lot of when ordinance are created at the township level, we have seen across the state them trying to either work with whoever law enforcement is to force that ordinance depending on where they're they're seeking that collaboration, whether it's the county or whether they have other sources to seek from. Some counties are choosing to implement and enforce those ordinances and some aren't. So you certainly wanna make sure if you're proposing ordinance language and changes that you wanna make sure law enforcement is also able to implement and enforce those those ordinances as well.

But in Dane County, our sheriff's department is the rep patrol unit that's patrolling

the lights, and they would be enforcing our account ordinance.

Yeah. If if it was a county ordinance. And as far as the chronic invasive species, you're right. The boats that have are equipped with a water ballast or can pump water in and can pump water up. There there are boats that could put other devices just lead weight in, or there are boats that don't have to use ballast and they have fins and other devices to create that.

But you would it's it's a separate issue kind of of if your boat is equipped to have a water ballast tank that can't be drained and sanitized with a 100% certainty. Right? There's I mean, yeah, you pump it as dry as you can get, but you don't really know if you got it all the way out. Or maybe you can sanitize it using a chemical solution, but really chemical solutions are the last thing we want people to be using because you never know where they get discharged.

So next, we have supervisor placements.

Yeah. Some of this might have been touched on with regard to lake sods, but I'm wondering if there's anything particular or intrinsic to our lakes that the nature of the lake bed or the ecology of the lake that should cause us to be thinking about more or less restrictive ordinances, or should we more or less assume that our lakes are analogous to any of lakes that were studied that were shown?

Yeah. That's a good question. So I think what you're asking are there critical habitat areas that we really would wanna protect and make sure and whether it's a wake boat or a regular boat, I I think there are some areas like Turtle Bay and, Wokka Wok Bay that are shallow, the turtle areas that have plants that probably already the plant community gets damaged from people recreating it. But I don't think they're so environmentally sensitive that we say this is a a broken off area, and we can't do that. So the other thing is the idea of this sentiment resuspension.

And the the wind question is a really good one. Like, okay. So North Mendota, that whole bay on North Mendota up between governors, governor Nelson and Governors Island or Farwell Point, That's really kind of a shallow wind swept bay and gets turbid when the wind blows from the south, whatever. This summer, we actually have lots of plants in there, and the plants actually help stabilize the lake bed. So not driving boats in that area where it's shallow enough. I mean so I think that the idea is if you drive the boats, whether they're regular boats or wake boats in displacement mode, you wanna drive them in water deep enough that you're not disturbing the plants and you're not disturbing the lake bed surface.

Do you wanna get on the queue? Yeah. Are you on a lake's own or something? That's okay. Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. I didn't know if you Thank

you. Thanks for the the talk. It was really good, both of you. Appreciate it. The San Anthony Falls study you you mentioned, I was just curious. I mean, a picture's worth a thousand words, so it's great to see those videos. But is there, you know, more quantitative data that goes with that?

Yes.

Say, you know, suspended solids increased by 50% or something for about, you know, that loss.

So they didn't look at, like, the the suspended solids. What they looked at was measuring the energy of those. And so they have meters at the shoreline or meters down deep that measured the wave energy or so that's what so if you read those papers, they they talk about actually needing to model how much sediment gets lifted up and how much, the duration, actually, if you watch that video, that sediment gets lifted in and trained in

the water column and it

stays there for, like, fifteen minutes. So it's not just up and down. It actually gets pulled up and those light flocculent organic y, late bottom sediments that they're interacting with are pretty light and are very small particles and can get lifted up and and lifted around. So but that's so the the second Saint Anthony falls, the six eleven report, calls out that they needed to, in a future study, look at the amount of material being lifted and then also that that water column mixing. They ran the study in October and the lakes had already turned over and were uniform in temperature.

And so they didn't under they didn't get a chance to understand the the hypolumneon, epolumneon mixing the phenomenon. And so they thought both of those are other future areas that need more slip.

Yeah. It looks like they had a script top for the meter setup. Right. I'm sure the bottom pipe would make a difference. It would be a fine, like, model or fine plays or or a a play to Rockbaud. I

mean, it seems like this

is another device, you know, from the recreational industry, for lack of a better word, that now immediately responded.

That's all. Mister Levin, did you

wanna get out of something? Yeah. Just I was gonna answer some questions that came up. My constituents vary, and they're all, like, from people. We have this battle between times too.

Whether they want plate waveboats or don't want plateboats, want to take. Also, in regard to the invasive species, what many of the constituents, the primary percent, feel is that most of these white blood stay on the set of bread, so they're not completely transported. Very few of them, all of them. But even so, they insist that even though they drained their ballast, there's still stuff left. So the only way to get rid of it, such chemicals, the hot blood.

We could do that by putting in each of our stations that are around the ramps, hot water. They say it also happens with the fishery people who don't drain their fishing. As as far as the bottoms are concerned, there's an interesting study, the original study back in 2015 that was done by the Bodium industry. And they did it on a sandy bottom, and they said, you know, land on board and came up with totally different things. Sand comes up, goes back down, it's it's up a few points.

It there is a and the bottom is much there. So but even so, they recommended if you read the fine print.

Slims Five. Through 11. I'm gonna put myself on the queue. I'll give them another chance to go. When we do permitting for for the boats for our lakes, do we ask them what kind of boat that they have that they're permitting?

No. They so the permitting is usually done by E

and R for that same boat registration.

Yeah. Or as you say, the boat access permit.

The boat the boat access one. Okay.

You just buy your sticker. You just

get a sticker. Or do we have the ability to ask those questions, like, what kind of boats they're bringing on? Or Yeah. So

Although, the I mean, it would be an optional question, but we and then, the sticker runs with the. So some people are gonna have multiple vehicles. But, I mean, it would it would give you some information, and it wouldn't be What

you could do, though, too is use that population of individuals that buy the permit and then send a mail survey or survey them in a statistically valid manner that would say, okay, of this, 30% of them that our sticker buyers have this or said they own this in the book. And so you could use the information just from the buyers, but then send out a mail survey to get some of what you're asking.

And then my second question is seems like a lot, you know, our lakes as we've, you know, been learning about them on our tenure on either the county board or on these commissions. We we we keep learning how they're imperiled by, you know, things like shoreline erosion, phosphorus pollution, Also, you know, some of the things that some of the scientific points you brought up right now about from the bottom, the water kinda flipping over maybe when it naturally is not supposed to. Taking, like, the sensitivity of our lakes, the amount of money we're investing in them in the in as a county to approve them. Would you guys, all of our staff, you know, Amy, Laura, Dave, Kyle, John, given if if we wanted if we made a request to you, like, how would you improve our ordinances to, account for these issues and to protect what is our our lakes that are becoming imperiled? Would you be able to write up some recommendations for what we might wanna see in an ordinance, given your understanding of the, you know, the the ecology of the lakes, but also of, like, the, you know, the state and local, you know, what our powers are.

Would you be able to write something like that up?

Yes. We we could do that. Because I think we you know, tonight, our goal was just to, read the committees on the issue, and we would wanna have another meeting to to get more guidance from making the use on what you're looking to achieve. And that would be the direction we would. So I would not feel comfortable based on tonight's discussion saying, yes, we would do that. But if the committee's had subsequent meetings where you could give us some guidance on what roles you're trying to make sure, whether it be safety, you know, all the various issues, then we could take that and work with them.

Yeah. I think that's certainly something we can get the committee chairs together to follow-up on. And I think setting a tentative goal for next spring, summer twenty twenty six, I think, would be reasonable, you know, especially, you know, given the changes here. Also, I think our county exec, the county clerk, and the sheriff could all get together, and they have the power to to declare a no wake ordinance, and it doesn't it's not solely based just on lake levels. There's also some broader language in there. So if they decided that this was a media problem that needed that, As per our current statutes, they could just declare a no wave ordinance.

It would be full that we've

been signed on this unit.

Yeah. They could just

Typically, they'll be dealing with water levels. We've not really done in all the times of our history. We haven't done it. They're just a reason to do it besides their problems. So then a slow no way because we have high water levels, or our peers floating around, or they there's there's things that are unsafe out there because of high water. That that's why we've done it. It's not just for any other reason,

but it's always been for others.

Yeah. I don't think that's been finalized.

We just started. It was just started. So,

yeah, there's an enforcement issue where the sheriff hasn't finished that.

Let's see. So we do have another presentation. So I I think that that's a a good idea for us as as committees to take this up and see, if there's further policy action or ordinance amendments to do. But thank you for all that information. We really appreciate that. And I think up next, we have John Reimer to do our late levels report.

Okay. So late level report kind of standard, what we've had in the past to just take the same things and just kinda update it from what we've had before. So, you know, supervisor Chabla, do you want me to stop for questions? Did you wanna wait till the end? What do you prefer?

I'd say let let's hold until the end. I think the committees have seen this. Yeah. Exactly. We we know, like, the general flow of it.

So Yeah. Okay. That sounds great. Alright. So current water levels, you can see the lake level. So how it's risk listed here in order of this table. Right? It's the lake name, the date, which is today, what's the current lake level, and the last three columns you see are the related to the water level orders. Right now, we are what we operate is what we call just a winter minimum. There's no winter maximum, so there's a level we can't go go below.

And we're not in the summer min and max range. That ended, October 31 was the last last day of those, but I put them up here so you can see them. But you can see right now, if you do wanna compare to summer minimum, the lake levels are all below summer minimum, and they're above the winter minimum. So in between in between that range for for every single lake. Alright.

Report on slow, no waste status. Actually, this year, and you'll see it in the next slides, actually a pretty normal year, maybe a little bit below normal in terms of precipitation, which resulted in us not having high water levels, which high water levels then can cause us to what I just mentioned before was supervisor Chabla have a slow, no lake on our lakes. And this year, it was all green. We didn't have any slow, no lakes. Okay.

So where are we at for precipitation? This is a plot of the top one of precipitation and starting from January to present day. You can see right now, where we end, we're, like, 31 and a half inches, which is kind of below the normal, which is around, like, 35 inches. But you could see during the year here, like in August here, there was a part where we would where where we crept up above normal, right, for for a little period, but then we got some dry weather and then continued below this this normal line. So we've been kinda, like, at normal, and then we would get dry weather and then get rainfall and then back to normal, kind of this stair step pattern kinda all the way through with a small portion here in August above above normal.

Alright? So this one, I know there's a lot here, but what this graph shows is, I kinda translated this. So all the lake samples, water level orders, and they're all different elevations. So it's kinda hard hard to see if I plot them all together. But what I did is it changed that to relative to summer minimum.

So right? So this line here going across represents, if we're at summer minimum, and this one represents if we're a half a foot above, which would be summer maximum. So if the water level is between these two dark lines, we're within summer min and max, And each one of the colored lines then represents the the lake. So the red one is Faganza. Blue is Lake Mendota.

Green, and you can see Monona Wobiza. So we started off the year March 1. It's kind of that period where we where the summer water level orders start, but yet we transitioned from that winter level up. And you can see actually, like, it took us, I don't know, until mid April almost to get get to, summer minimum. So we didn't start, August for or, I mean, yeah, March 1 right at summer minimum.

So we just had a lack of rainfall. We came off, like, no snowfall, and just this rain is is what it took to to get there. Now we're we're within the range, operating what we can, you know, kinda up and down. And then we get this one period in August where I showed kinda before. If I go back, right, we're above our normals.

We get above, but then the the rainfall subsides and everything kinda comes back down until October 31, which this is the this is that summer period, March to to October. Alright? So in terms of if I just summarize that all into numbers, March 1 oh, this should be sorry. Have a typo drop, but change this. To, October 31, that's two hundred forty five days of that summer period.

If I look at the past ten years of data, Mendota has been within that range, a hundred seven days. And then you could see the other lakes, 95, one 2009, all the way through. And in 2025, this is this is kinda what we were. So, generally, we're kind of above above that number or or near it, for 2025. Alright?

So that was lake levels. Now our mitigation efforts to help us get within those lake levels more often, our action here is the sediment removal. So, and to minimize flooding, right, to get more days within the summer range and and reduce flooding. We are, dredging the river or doing sediment removal. And you can see here in these gray line, gray areas, those are the areas that have been completed.

So phase one, phase two a, phase two b, and the green represents where we're actively working. So we are working currently here, phase three a, And we should finish that, next summer. That's our goal. And Dave here has been managing the crew, with that project. So they've been they've been doing great work, making great progress.

And then phase three b, that's our next targeted project here, that that we're actively pursuing. So to kinda summarize these, right, you've seen this flow chart here of all the the process of how we how we go through the the project. Right? In phase three a, which I showed here, we're actively in that construction sediment removal phase. And then phase three b, which we're gearing up for our next one once this one completes, We are in the permitting process near the ending stages of this.

Hopefully, we are we'll be be moving forward with that, in the coming months. So which, obviously, we can't do any dredging now, but we would be gearing up first, hopefully targeting this, maybe late fall. We'll just have to see when we end phase three a. Can we get to three b yet, the end of this summer, fall, or is it the following year? But just getting this one in queue to start up right when we're done. So that's what I have for today.

Questions? Comments? Once again, folks online, if you just wanna raise your hand or jump in the chat. Mister Webb? Yeah. Anything on the fishing weir?

Yeah. So, right, the fishing weir you're talking about is with our permitting with phase three three d. And currently, right, there's a there's a process with our permitting that the DNR works with the historical society, and that process has has moved forward. They've made made communication with that. And now we have that moving forward, and now it'll be moving towards the the public comment process for that permit.

So we do have some items that we need to do. One is mapping that area. That's part of what they're asking us to do. And I should say that we did do over the summertime a archaeological report on this area, and we submitted that with our permit to help document what what the current status of that fish weir is. Does that answer your question? Okay. Great.

Go ahead. Great stuff, John. Just quick question about the white levels. I think you might have explained this to me last time, but the two two legs, I think it's lot easier and Yeah. Yeah. How about you? And and they tend to respond, you know, in a lot of. They do. Yeah. So explainer to you.

Yeah. So, you could see here in this plot, this is a good example of it. Right? Mendota, Monona or I mean, sorry. Mendota and Kaganza, the blue and the red, are down here.

Right? Mendota sits, you know, about five feet above Monona Wabisa. So, generally, we can push out water from Mendota onto Monona Wabisa, which when we do that, that causes Monona Wabisa to rise if they can't release fast enough, which that's kind of the current state we have is we can move a lot of water from Mendota Mendota to Manona, but if it can't get rid of it as quickly as it comes in, then it then it rises up. Also, Manona will be so watershed, especially Manona, is pretty organized. So there's not really areas right?

Go to Downtown Madison. You don't see ponds or retention ponds. You'll see a lot of buildings and concrete. Right? So when you have those impervious surfaces, we call them, right, it it just runs off right into our into our waters quickly. So you got kinda those two things happening. Right? The node is releasing its water, and and the watershed is releasing its water so quickly.

Thank you. Yep.

Alright. It's Yeah.

I just have a question, I guess. What

pick another question.

Things have been

I've been here for, like, four

years and watched the reports. Yeah. And it seems like things have not changed a lot. I mean, we haven't had a lot of flooding in here, that kind of thing. Yeah. Has that changed, like, in the last few years as opposed to what happened in the last, you know, ten or twelve or fifteen years? Have we done some things that have made that happen? And I'm hoping we're doing things that are

that are helping that.

I mean Or is it just a matter

of how much

precipitation? A lot of it is precipitation. We just haven't had a really wet year like 2008, right, where we had like, this this plot here was right? We're we're below average this year. In 2008, it was, like, 50 inches of precipitation, so almost double normal. We just haven't experienced of 2008. You know, prior to that, 02/1993. Seems like these things come every ten years. So you know? Or and then there was, yeah, the 02/2019. So 2018 was the last one. You know? Is it 2028? They come every ten years. You know?

I I don't know. You know? That's that's what they seem to be. And how much was the settlement removal change for us? Yeah. So the problem with testing the settlement removal, how much has it changed it is when we get dry weather, we're we're closing the dams. So it's not like the river is restricting the flow. We humans are are restricting flow. So we haven't had these really high events where the dams are completely open for, like, the whole summertime, and we we can test it. Like, you can see here.

Like, right, the water level gets down, but we gotta we gotta we're closing the dam so we don't get below summer minimum. Right? We're closing the dam here so we don't keep you can see us dropping. We don't wanna wanna drop any further. Same thing to Ganza. Right? We don't wanna drop any further. So we are closing the dam so we don't have all this water flowing flowing through them to test in those really high water situations. Like,

I've opened before the deal this this. Oh, no.

We were we were we were closed for for for a bit a.

But maybe it was didn't went the right time.

Yeah. I mean, it it depends the time. It depends what you're looking at too. Are you looking at the lock chamber? Are you looking at the sluice gate? So different pieces of

that are open ended at times.

Yeah. So that's that's true.

Just follow-up to that too. Manona, Guabrizo was the first stretch that was completed. And John can speak better to this, but those two rates have kinda normalized relative to each other since that work was done. So that is one indicator that when we have those high water years, we believe it will be effective based on how those two lakes specifically have responded.

Yeah. Yeah. That that's a good point. So you see here phase one was between Winona and Wabisa. So in the past, we would get a lot of water coming in Manona, but it could release out of Wabisa, and this would be maybe eight inches, a foot higher than Lake Wabisa. And if we go back and look at the data here, we see actually, you know, they're they're, like, inches apart now. I mean, they're, like, running running right together on top of each other, which sets the idea. I want them to be, like, one lake together, not, you know, two separate lakes because we don't have we don't have a dam in between them. Right? That's just a natural flowage of water through here.

Pretty good. So, yeah, that that's one piece that we've got there. But we haven't finished, right, the work through here. We have finished finished here, but then Lake Faganza Dam would then close for for a portion of the summer.

No. No. Absolutely. When we get that next big event, whether it's 2028, 2030, whatever that year is, regardless of how far we've done we could have finished all of these stages. If we get another catastrophic event, they're just shaving off the top. Right? So we're not we're not ever gonna be at a point where flooding goes away entirely. We're just hoping that this work is going to minimize the devastation from this event. So you don't think the severity, but you might still have some undesirable situation respect. The summer is when you get those.

Alright. I'm gonna put myself on the floor. Would be would you raise in your hand? Nope. Okay. Yeah. So thanks for putting this together. It's very helpful. We we it's it's very helpful to have this historic data because we do have certain critics in the community who are providing frequent critiques of lake management. So having this information to point to, especially that graph, I think it was it was the one on the other page.

This one. Yeah. This one is this one is very helpful because it gives the community an idea of what's happening. If you have time and you're, like, feeling like you're you're you really wanna do a little mini project, it would be awesome if on here you could, like, somehow put markers on to show when you're changing the dam levels.

Like Yeah. I thought about that. We got three dams, and I tried that. It just it was so confusing. Yeah. I mean but I can maybe try and find a way.

Or if there's just, like, a history of, like, when those changes are made, that's helpful sometimes because we have to occasionally just respond just so the community knows kinda what's happening. So Great. Yeah. That was my only feedback. I'm not seeing anyone else on the queues, so I think we could go ahead and conclude there. Thanks, John. We really appreciate that. I don't know if I jumped the gun a little bit before because we also do have on our agenda. We do have, what was it, update on proposed amendments, chapter 71. So I don't know if I got into that prematurely, but yeah.

Sorry. Go ahead, Kyle. No worries. No worries.

Just a little general update.

Because I know probably some of the committees aren't aware of what Lakes and Watershed Commission has held some public hearings in 2025 related to chapter 71 regulations of ice on waters. Most of the public information meetings were to gather feedback from the public on potential ordinance amendments. And along with that, we've also been working with the Dane County Sheriff's Office, the Marine Patrol Unit, in particular, because we know certainly from their perspective on the implementation of that ordinance, there's some changes that they might want to see as well. A lot has I don't think the ordinance last time it was updated was in 2020, kind of during the pandemic years, if I recall correctly. And so based on the public information and feedback that we got from the community and the sheriff's office, the Lakes Water Sheriff Commission had a recommendation to update that ordinance.

In doing that, we've been working with our corporation counsel to get updated language that we can hopefully introduce to the county board for the ordinance amendment process. So hopefully, we'll have a draft language proposal in the month of December, and we'll be able to introduce that to the various committees in 2026. That's a nice new

one. Stout, appreciate that. Alright. Up next, we're gonna go back to the Land Conservation Committee. We're on adjournment, so I'll entertain a motion to adjourn the Land Conservation Committee. I move by Peters. All in favor of adjourning, say aye. Aye. Opposed? Extensions? Okay. The Land Conservation Committee is adjourned.