Tree Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

Research labs in Illinois. So Sarah. Sarah, we Did you really?

Yeah.

So when I was in college You were ready for my first part time jobs. I worked What's there? The ITAM, the LCTA Land Condition Trend Analysis Program, which was to assess I know all about it.

Was Yeah. I was

a manager for that for

a while.

Oh, Yeah.

So I was their

LCTA manager. I did that for two summers. Yeah. And then when I graduated, they hired me full time to run that LCTA program. I was contracted through the

Oklahoma Biologics.

Oh, yeah. Like it up there. You know?

The first year I worked for it, I paid for CSU. Right. Through the CSU. Right.

Oh, he's a little kid.

Yeah. But, yeah, that's why

We're ready to roll here, guys. Oh my god. Yeah. Small.

We'll have to talk. Yeah. We'll have to talk more.

Okay. Good to meet

you. Today is Monday, March 9. This is the radio my feedback meeting of the Open Space and Trails Advisory Board. The time is 06:33. So we call the meeting to order. First item of business is roll call and verification of quorum. We'll just go around the room. Dave?

Newtaszuk, member.

Bill Brink, member. Joe?

Joe Swanson, member. Oh, whoops. Bill. Bill? Bill Brinker, member. Ken Martin, member. Two people have exused access to, accesses one for illness, the other out of town. Oh, no. Okay. Let's see. Has everyone looked at the agenda? And are there any changes? If not, I have a motion to accept.

Interrupt. Did did we acknowledge?

Oh, excuse me. Yeah. Two two people. Staff. Two staff. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Chanel. Hi, John.

I I got your name on your side. Yeah.

John? John Mordolaro, council liaison.

Luke? Luke Bollinger, town staff.

And we have one guest. Would you mind identifying yourself?

I'm Cameron Halen. I'm one of the applicants that applied, so I wanted to come to the meeting and see what's about.

Alright. Now I have a motion to approve the agenda as submitted.

So moved.

All in favor? Say a second. Second. No. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, none. Okay. Next is approval of the previous minutes. Before we do that, have you accept officially accepted being the permanent secretary until we have an election in two two months. You

sent me a letter of congratulations, so I guess I Okay. Alright. Excuse me. Didn't know. Hey. Sure.

Checks in the mail. Lost. For a while.

See you.

Yeah. So yeah. Until we until we, you know, fully transition to a new board in a May? No. Late April Okay. David has offered to be our secretary. So we don't have interrupt. So thank you, David, for that.

But I'm anticipating when we come time to elect the next secretary, he'll say, well, it can't be me.

I've already

done it.

K. Luke, could you bring up the minutes of the

previous meeting? We need to pull them up.

Has everyone looked at the minutes of previous meeting? No. Any comments or corrections? Nope. All in favor motion to accept.

So moved. Bill. Second. Bill.

All in favor, say aye. Aye. Alright. Next is the public comment period. You you can have the floor for three minutes if you'd like it.

No comments about the agenda. No. Okay.

Okay. So next item on business, general business. Whoop. We need John's.

Yep. How's How

about that? I'm just looking at the agenda. I don't see Oh, am I

not on it?

We're not on Oh my goodness.

How'd that happen? Well, we'll we'll let you give us

Anyway, I'll I'll give a

a quick update, and then I'll I'll excuse myself since a couple weeks ago, we're going through code of ethics and conduct. And one council member suggested that liaison excuse themselves from anything that's going to the council. And so that hasn't been a it so and and since the the topics tonight are are going to the council, I'll excuse myself. And, and, you know, what I said in the meeting was a lot of times, those are done in executive session, which I'm not at anyhow, but there's a couple you know, the the exceptions are occasional, and, the page property and and and Saint Silette's, is you know, will go to council. Right?

So, it's just a letter to council. So I'll I'll excuse myself. But, you know, I wanna give you update. On February 17, the council voted to terminate, town manager Malcolm Fleming's contract. Malcolm served the town for for seven, eight years now. And, you know, we, we've worked closely with him. And I don't know how much it affects this group because you really work closely with Luke and and staff there. But, just so you know, Meredith Muth is the acting town manager, why we recruit, a new town manager. So

yeah. Excuse me, John. Meredith is the former city clerk in Lewisville, and she's spectacular. I am so happy that that Yuri has her. She's great. I really like working with her.

Yeah. Yeah. She's been great, and she's been great through this transition. And she actually acted in a similar role, in Lewisville, when, Malcolm was ended his tenure there as well. So, she's very familiar with this kinda transition period. You know, we like I say, we expect it to take, you know, four to eight months to, you know, to recruit, interview, and and get a new town manager in in place. So Alright. With that, I'll thank you guys for your service, and and and

Yeah. Sorry, John. Maybe just one question, basically. Sure. What's what is the status of the pre application for Saint's Glasfow? Is that not quasi judicial, or are there any updates that you can share?

It's not quasi judicial.

Yeah. Yeah. I do I do we just got an update on quasi judicial and wasn't on there?

No. No. Pre apps are not quasi judicial. Okay. Because it's not a formal end use application.

There are

no other updates that you guys can share while we still have junk. What's that? No other updates from you on that that you can share?

Not that I've heard. I, you know, I haven't gotten any information that we didn't all get from from the pre application information. So I I don't have any any update on that. Certainly, I think, you know, obviously, I'm aware that you guys are putting a letter together, for counsel and and, but other than that, yeah, I don't have any additional.

Okay. Alright.

Thanks, Jordan. Thanks, everybody. Appreciate it. Have a have a great night. Sorry. My statement's so so so you're not saying that. Yeah. Take care. We'll see.

Okay. Next item, general business re review of the OSAP response letter to council on the, pre application of Saint Scholastica and the plan at suit, finalize it tonight. So, Luke, could you bring that up?

I certainly can. We're gonna try. We'll see. Okay. We'll see how it all goes.

And the same thing that it did to me last week or last month. Okay. And then we got a new one. 349.

K. Alright.

K. Uh-huh. Okay. Yes. Hold your applause, please. Okay.

Good when things come together.

Pardon me?

Oh, I just said it's good when things get together.

Okay.

Okay. I

do love this new system. It makes it so much easier to find documents.

Oh, great.

Okay. Great. So I yeah. I'd like to review this in in two parts. The first 80% of the letter is the actual response to the pre application, and then the last two paragraphs are preceded by what's next.

So initially, I just wanna look at the contents of the of the referral part. The other thing is, from from what I understand, there's almost universal opposition across the board to that pre op. And so I would prefer that we don't spend a lot of time on this rearranging parts and trying to cross t's. I mean, if you see something that's, you know, factually incorrect or something that's missing, we we wanna take care of it. And, well, I guess for the benefit of people listening in, the last part of that under underline is as follows.

OSTAB has concluded that the unique location amenities of the site are irreplaceable and cannot be found elsewhere in Erie, particularly close to Old Town. Thus OSTAB strongly recommends that St. Scholastica pre application be rejected and uppercase not proceed further. So any recommended suggestions, additions, subtractions?

My my only recommendation would be make that the first paragraph. Okay. And then that you know, and everything else is in support of that.

Just like the solution at the beginning

of the

I don't yeah. I don't care. Okay.

I think all the all the necessary stuff is in there, but that would be my right point.

Okay. What what what's other people's opinion? I kinda like it at the end. It summarizes.

You know, what we could do is we could just say, we could put it at the front and put it at the end and just in front of that statement right there where it is to say to reiterate.

Okay.

Okay. Just block and paste at the very top of the document and and verbatim.

Okay. Just just add that as a summary. Okay. Yeah. As we say in the PR world, don't bury the lead.

Bottom line up front, bluff.

That's right.

Okay. So let's go on to what's next. Let's look at the first sentence or paragraph, or additional paragraph. Ostab strongly believes that it is impossible to preserve the open space values on the phrase property if locations identified in the dig study as, quote, buildable land, unquote, contains several structures. Therefore, we commit to recommending one or more options that will resolve this problem.

Our goal is to complete this task during the second or q two of the second quarter. Yeah. My my thoughts just why is this in there? My concern is is twofold. One, the longer this thing remains in limbo, the greater the possibility that some other new application like Saint Scholastica might suddenly appear out of nowhere, and perhaps it would be more amenable.

And the town council could be getting frustrated with the nothing being done, that all of a sudden, some they might approve something that we don't agree with at all. So I think it's important to come up with a resolution. And the other thing, I guess I should say it, but I will, there's a town election coming up in November, and there's three members of town council that are up for reelection. And so, basically, the philosophy of the of the town could conceivably change on this if one or more of those members were not reelected. And my guess is I think we can I was originally gonna plan to start that process tonight, but because the town clerk requested that we set aside what amounts to two hours for the 12, applications, we decided to move it?

And then I might as well read the second one. Additionally, we are aware that one or more partials on our open space acquisition priority list are likely suitable for multi multiple uses. Open space preservation, spine trail extension, and affordable housing. Since this task would encompass activity beyond our traditional role of advising on open space and trails, We await specific specific, that's an interesting one, specific, I think it should be, guidance whether we should proceed. So basically, Phil Phil put the the first draft to this.

Again, it did all heavy lifting, so thanks a lot. Then he and I went back and forth on just how to phrase this. And we were originally thinking of we would essentially look into other parcels for this. So I said, well, wait a minute. We don't have any official responsibility involving open space.

And since this would be joint, we figured we should ask the town council whether or not they want us to do that. But we would we would do that after coming up with a solution on the the plate's property. So any thoughts, additions, corrections?

I mean, it's the only thought that

I had and I don't know

if this is necessary to include, but I just wanna say it out loud. But those tabs rejection of the three DIG studio designs, in my mind, was not a permission slip to say, okay. Let's find something else to squeeze into that site instead. And that's almost what the actions Okay.

Felt like. Yeah. I don't

know that it's something that needs to go under the letter because I think it's strong enough to scan on its own. Yeah.

Well, it shows we could. I mean, I I certainly agree with your observation, and this is basically an open invitation to the town council. It says, we're ready to put the shovels to work, but we want you to specifically say that specifically because because I know when we've had subdivision applications and we've disagreed with something, and then we were always told, you don't go beyond that. It's not your responsibility. You're being o set to come up with an alternative.

You say what's there, and they say it's really this responsibility of the town to find an alternative. So that's why I think it it's it's important that we, you know, ask them whether they want us to do this rather than just go ahead, do it.

I think the question in my mind is what are we actually asking the council to tell us they want us to do? Because I'm not clear on what our you know, our our room is open space and trails and the acquisition of property that will further advance that that goal. The only thing that I could see would be advantageous for them to tell us is maybe ask for information that might be relevant for us to consider as we rank property, the acquisition targets. But beyond that, I don't really see. Do you see

I I agree. I don't think it's in those steps responsible that you go find other properties for development, whether it be housing or institutional or commercial. That's not the role of this advisory board.

Although, will say we do kind of do that a little bit as we

review parcels. Right? I mean, depending on your location, where they

sit in the community.

But Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I think We

don't make that recommendation, but we

do take that into account. Right? Mean Making an exception for this is this particular parcel that we are thinking about could lend it itself to a split where TNAC money would purchase part of it, here we go again, and and, you know, other town money would be used, know, used for the affordable housing part. So this is a little bit unusual. Well, not that.

But just, you know, ideally from our perspective, we don't use TNAc money for the whole thing if we can avoid that because we've already got a pretty good idea where the open space should be. And I often we will get into the kind of situation we have the page property where all of a sudden, oops.

Yeah. I I would I would say it'd be more advantageous to OSTAB as a as a board to go through the process like we normally do, where a property comes to the town with a with an application and we give say and we update this is where we would like open space and let it go through that process versus buying the property, trying to split it, and then figuring out, like, oh, this has actually good. I think it works well on paper, but I as we have come to discover, once you kinda get down into the nitty gritty of it and do all the due diligence and find out, oh, actually, where we want the open space is actually where the the only place you can physically build homes doesn't work out that way. So Yeah. You know,

I would be given the nature of the property, I would be quite surprised if a developer would be interested in it. There's enough oil and gas setbacks that I think a decent portion of the property For page property? Pardon me? No. No. This is no. This is if we're looking at an alternative property.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. This is part two. Okay. That that that's the one where if if we contact the owner, we could generate some interest because we we we're guessing, but don't know Right. That they are not overwhelmed with

And then are we making promises that, oh, yeah. We can develop this land and then like, oh, just kidding. We actually can.

I guess You know, I think, actually, what you you know, if if we do proceed, we would need to get the planning department Right. To look at the part that we're saying, well, maybe affordable housing is gonna be here

Right.

To say, oh, you forgot about this, you forgot about that, you forgot about that.

Which in my opinion, they're much more well equipped. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. We would do that. They're much more well equipped.

We would start the process of looking at it, but we would not say we recommend this until town staff had said it's workable.

Right.

Yeah. I mean, I I guess I see this. We are in the process. We started the process. We've kinda been a little bit sidetracked lately. But I'm hoping that we can get back on our ranking process and we our our our acquisition

The rerank. Yeah.

Yes. Soon. I know Luke really wants to do that, and I think we all we all do. And and that drive that's gonna drive that process. We you know, there there were some a couple of specific ones that we had I I think you were going to inquire about. I don't know if you did. Mhmm. Are are we are we able to say I we used to have to go into executive session, then for a while, we didn't. If I ask you the question of the upland or, you know, a property up in the hill, we'll say, above property, are you at liberty to to say outside of executive session what what response you've had if

I mean, I I can say that we haven't had any inquiries on that on any prop on any of the properties north of page to North. Where it is. Yeah. And that was one of the things that I wanted to talk about this evening Okay. To talk about a specific parcel that I can't disclose without being an executive session as to not compromise negotiations. But with this other the applications that we That's true. We postponed it until next month. So Okay. There are additional conversations coming. So that is good as I can phrase it.

Okay. So is everyone okay with submitting this as written? And I'll we'll make the change. We'll basically put the lead at the front and the back. Okay.

That's the end of that item. Next and last item is to review the applications for all things on the space and trails and laundry board. There are there are four of them. I'm just gonna set forth the requirements that we got from the town clerk's office. First, those people whose terms are about to end need to leave the meeting as soon as the discussion starts.

In this case, Joe and I are both Terms are expired. So we will be walking out the door once the process starts. The other requirement that we've never had before is that we're supposed to rank every single application. So we'd like we wind up submitting a list to the town council one, two, three, four, five, etcetera, through 12. Michelle's memo said seven, but she must have copied it from somewhere else, so it's all 12.

And I think I checked this with Luke. One of the reasons they're doing this is if after this process is over, if someone resigns from a board for personal reasons anytime between the next open application area, the person who's ranked fifth would become a new member until the next application.

And I'm not sure if there's a time limit to that. That's one question that I still have to get from the clerk's office. But then also to to add on to chair Martin's point of if the first four that we select, maybe three of them are like, I changed my mind, then you move to the next. That's why we rank them. So you have a so you have a and and, basically, a list of alternates.

So a couple of questions. First off, Ken and I talked about this earlier, but at least for the board members that are that are here, can you tell us how long you've served on those town already?

2019 was my first year.

I don't know. 2020.

2018,

I think it was '12 yeah. Well, he didn't need it from me. Either '12 or '13. I moved here in 2010, and I joined either the following year or the either '11 or '12. So that's the beavers. It's either '14 or '15.

And moving forward, I just I find it incredibly disruptive that we've got a majority of OSTAP that's gonna be replaced. Is that the usual cycle, or is it November,

like This is is one of those odd years because of the new requirements of of appointing in odd years. We had to make the change so that we don't have to that we don't have this happen again. But are the three of

our terms all expire at the same time in two years. Is that right? Yeah.

She's in '27. Yeah. Now it's gonna be staggered instead of everybody

It'd be every two years, but, Bill, this will always be I mean, the intention is the board every board has an odd number. And so by definition, one of the cycles, in this case where we got seven, four four positions would be retired. And then two years later, when the next cycle came, the the three did so you're always gonna have a situation where either three people or four people leave the room, which means if depending on the cycle, so it knows next time, instead of three people making the decision, it'll be four because you you three.

It just feels to me, like, a deep and drastic potential cut in institutional knowledge. And, you know, when I was on boards in Boulder, like, if we had a five person board, they were staggered so that each person would roll off. You know, they'd serve their five year term, but we wouldn't have three or four people up all at once. We would only have one with four people in the majority able to kinda help. You know? Yeah.

And so four applicants will fill four three year terms ending 04/30/2029. So you're gonna have this happen in 2029. Yeah. And then I mean, it's it's odd. It's an odd number, so you're either gonna have three or four leaving at on those odd years.

Yeah. But the problem is you you're always gonna have the problem that you mentioned is that either three or four people potentially all that knowledge, I don't think it could all evaporate at one time. And I don't I don't know if it's in the town charter, that process. I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm I'm operating on the same instructions as you all are.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's it's in the town charter. I wouldn't be surprised, but I I really don't know if the way it's worked. You know? I mean, it's it's always been this way.

Right?

But Yeah. Yeah. Don't know. Yeah. You have a valid point. It's not just for this way. It's because all the boards have the same situation. So you know?

Maybe just

said that would would solve the problem.

Just a final point. In looking through the the applications, the addresses have been redacted. How do we know that the applicants aren't all in the same neighborhood, for example?

That's a good question. Too. I don't think that was a requirement. I don't think we're because we're not district. We're not you know, like, council is like there's there there's not there's not nothing in our municipal code that says we have to have two OSTAP members or one Yeah. OSTAP members from a district. That's only town council. Yeah. But It's a good point, but Yeah. It's just not a requirement.

Your info. Since in the past, we did know what neighborhood the people were in, and that was one of the criteria we used in making selections. We didn't want, yep, say three or four people to be from the same subdivision. And particularly if if and since we've got this odd setup of two separate counties, we also didn't want all separate members to be from one county. So we want some dispersion because it's almost inevitable if everyone's from or a large number from some number, and some issue comes up, people on the outside are gonna say, they made the decision because three members were from that sub group, so they did it for their own benefit.

So it it can create a problem, but I was a little bit surprised to see them redacted. Some of the application, I just skimmed them, do mention the name of them, but that's not a requirement. Certainly, all don't. But I think it's worthwhile, you know, as part of this process that we go ahead and mention, you know, some of the things that you're concerned that you can possibly lose a bunch of experience all at once, and the fact that you could wind up with a majority of the applicants all from one neighborhood, and then this inevitable calls of bias if that neighborhood winds up in a decision process. Anything else?

Otherwise, Joe and I are history.

Last chance. Do you guys want to So

they're not like the campaign. Choose there before you go.

Well, I'd like to raise the issue I raised earlier is I don't feel comfortable doing this in a public forum and having it recorded. I will I will leave before I do that.

And that's your and that's your that's your prerogative idea that like I said, I'm operating on the same instructions.

So I just don't think it's

Yeah. I guess the question is

Well, now I'll take this feedback to the

To Joe and I saying why you guys are struggling with

Yeah. I mean, you before you guys, anybody leaves, I'd like to get this issue resolved and figure out exactly what we're going to do here because Dave has said he will leave. That leaves Bill and I. So I I would like to know specifically how this will go forward. For example, I think I read or saw that we are required to give each applicant ten minutes, but what if it only takes us five?

I don't think it was a requirement. I think that was a recommendation by the clerk's office.

Yeah. I think the requirement was to set enough time.

Yeah. There was decide when you

put the agenda together, but not that you're gonna have a clock going, you know, for ten minutes

Yeah.

Each.

So, Luke, is is this going to be a verbal process where you're going to lead us with each application, or are we going to write them down and then give you scores? This is something where Bill and I can convene privately and say, okay.

So because the chair or the vice chair are coming off, staff liaison remains in the room, And then the discussion is totally up to you. You will rank them, and then you will send them to, Michelle once those rank once once you are comfortable with that.

If the chair and if these two leave, we no longer have quorum.

I asked that question, and that doesn't apply in this situation.

Okay. I

thought about that. Does does the does

the meeting need to be on

the rank? The meeting does need to be recorded.

Can Bill and I leave the room? Can you and Bill leave leave the room. I'm just throwing out questions because I I I think this is

Gentlemen, again, I'm operating on the same instructions that I got from Michelle. This is my first time doing this. So the if if frankly, if you all don't feel comfortable in the process, you can leave it to counsel to appoint new members of those staff.

The my guess is

We have one sorry, Ken. One Sure. We have we have one advisory board that only has one member available to be at the ranking meeting. So another staff member is gonna help out that individual rank those. So we're all kind of going through this together, because of the the new staggered year requirements and how many applicants we got, which I think is awesome. That 12 community members wanna be on this board, and I think it's in our best interest to take the process seriously and, you know, look at all the applications with people who are not coming off. So

Dave, are your concerns in any way mitigated or addressed if we use this time with the three of us to I mean, for lack of better use, I guess, we review the 12 applications. We each kind of point out what we like, and then the voting amongst us is secret.

Well, I don't you would now I think that would violate probably some law.

Yeah.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't that sounds to me like a Well, mean, we not public

on a spreadsheet or whatever, but we don't announce it. No.

I think that's

a great idea. I mean, if we could if we could as recorded, we have audio and video. But if we could each come up with a spreadsheet, if we could kind of silently aggregate those, average those each, you know, line by line for all of the applicants, and then vote on vote on on the aggregate score or the average score of each applicant, would that be acceptable? Well, I don't I don't

know how you would score that because we don't have a score in Rubik or anything like that.

No. We would just Yeah. I mean,

it's it's up to you three

to decide the process. And and you say we don't don't we don't we rank them one to seven?

Yeah. You rank but you're saying scoring.

Well, I'm saying the same. I'm using the same using that term interchangeably.

Oh, okay. So if you all selected one, it would be one. I see what

you're saying.

Or I

thought you

asked selects one. He selects, you know, eight, seven.

I've been reviewing land OpenSpaces land criteria, so I'm in that, like, scoring rubric.

Yeah.

Yeah. Sorry. So but, yeah, rank it. We just averaged them silently and then voted on that. Would that be acceptable? I'd I'd

I honestly, gentlemen, again, I I don't know. They're the the parameters of this is having an open discussion and deciding who is the best fit to serve on OSEP. Yeah. Those are those are the rules that I have. I've been scouring the code and the charter all day. I've talked to the clerk's office. That was the guidance that I have. So I'm sorry that I don't have any better information other than we have 12 applicants, and we have to select them.

Would would it help if you numbered them and you just talked about

them as numbers and not names?

Oh, I don't know.

I I'm just throwing it

out. Didn't know if it if

it happened.

Is is, I think, irresponsible in my opinion. And if I've well, you you guys too. I've hired lots of people. And we don't have open discussions where everybody is Right. You know, you're you're making decisions. You're commenting on people. I mean, I might like Carmen to death, but maybe I don't he's, you know, the best candidate. Right. It's just a kind of uncomfortable position and it's I mean, it's recorded. So all those discussions are public. Right. You know, if I say something negative about somebody, oh, well, you know, that that's not true. You know? Right.

No. I I totally understand what

you're Yeah.

I totally get what you're saying.

It's just not an appropriate way to do it. Right. Right.

And I guess that's why I was just kind of saying that you numbered them and you'd spoke in numbers and then nobody really know who you were talking about at any one given time, you just said, you know

I think that would probably, undermine the the intent that corpusoft has to I

don't I don't know how we could number him with that end.

Well, you could number him randomly. And, you know, I I it's it's that's I hadn't thought of that approach, and that's I don't know how to answer it. Yeah. I just try

and throw something out at my belt.

It's clear from the town coach instruction. They went overboard to make this as public as as possible.

You guys are comfortable doing doing it that way? No. I'm not comfortable.

I'm still trying to figure out if there's a a if there's a way to thread this needle. And I'm hoping that there that there is. I very much much want you to be here because otherwise, it's just Bill and I. Right. And at least with three, you know, you can, you know, you can come up with, you know, that that's just a third more in the way of of weight, and I think that would add to it. But I I definitely acknowledge and and appreciate your concern, and I agree with it. I'm wondering if we could just, you know, get back in the agenda here, just technically build a matrix with the applicants, and we could each score them. I can aggregate them. I'm just thinking that way

for them.

Yeah. Or maybe you can sign out with just a yes, no. I mean, it and And then you can say, well, there's too many that are similar, so let's do a scoring. So because element a is more important than element b. I'm just throwing out ideas.

We've Yeah.

We've never we've never had this requirement before of ranking. So is it important that we

do it It Is it essential that we do this tonight as opposed to Yeah. Unfortunately, I also asked that question. So the way the calendar works out, council makes their appointments at the April 28 meeting. We wouldn't have our meeting until the let's see. That'd be the thirteenth, and that puts a real that puts a real squish. I would say we would have to call down clerk's office.

I would say we'd have to call a special meeting. I agree. Because I I seem to recall reading that after the last advisory board has a meeting at a certain date that all the recommendations would be forward to

Yeah. So there's a date that

It's someday in late March. Okay. So we're I'm I'm almost certain we would have to call a specialist one. Yeah. VDX. So none of the none

of the other advisory boards have any concerns like this? They're they're both. You know?

I don't even I only liaison with this one. I'm getting plenty busy. So Well I'd I'd mentioned the the one advisory board has to have a staff member and and a member, you know, help with the with the appointments. I I think one thing to mention is, well, I'm not gonna mention that.

But that might have been the key.

Yeah. No.

I don't think

it is because, yes, I was I'm I'm operating off the exact again, I'm operating on the exact same instructions. So I wish if I had the answer, I would give you the answer on how this should be done or it's not. And like I said, it's not listed anywhere. I'm Emmanuel. Like, where's the policy? Where's the where's the procedure? There there's not. The instructions were to have a discussion with the members who were not coming off of their term and rank the applications. And I would say rank them based on, you know, experience, your experience serving on this board, natural resource management, trail planning, open space acquisition. And, I mean, it doesn't have to get any personal anything more personal than that. So those are the criteria? I would say that's a pretty decent list of criteria.

I think what we're looking for is, you know

Oh, yeah. So it wasn't the key.

All kinds of subjective things.

No. I yeah. I think looking at, well and looking at the questions. Right? You know, what capacities have they served in other volunteer boards? And then as it relates to this board's responsibilities, do they have great experience in those things that I mentioned? Natural resource management, open space acquisition, trail planning. And I think we could rank them on a piece of paper, but at, you know, at the end of the day, we'll, you know, have to have some sort of a record of of of how we rank them. And that's going to be an email to Michelle, which is would be considered public record. So

Okay. I I think I have a way.

Well, I know Michelle's not back in the office until, like, the nineteenth. I just wonder if there was

I'm talk to the town clerk, and I have talked to Meredith as well. So I went all the way to the top on this one. So I I I just do wanna mention that if we do start talking about recommendations that we don't put Ken and Joe in an awkward spot.

No. We would have we would have to leave. Once once you start looking at any of the 12, because I we we we can't be here.

Yeah. Look. Yeah. Camera, there's ladder? Yes.

You want me to go? I can go. I mean, that's I I don't know. Yeah. It's a it's a public meeting.

You know?

I mean, that's the irony of it. I don't Yes.

I agree. I agree. Yeah. Do they have to leave?

Yes. It can't I

have have no doubt in my mind.

We have to leave.

I think it would be in the best interest as to not sway the decisions of the remaining board members.

Yeah. Well, those wanna

Yeah. Course.

Yeah. To the public. We could we could look at the recording. I feel

like you're

buying your own beer

next year. Yeah.

No. I mean, I mean, Cameron took the the time and trouble to come here. Mhmm. And, you know

He's a candidate.

I think that's a positive thing. You know, he could have a sway too.

Mean He And no offense. Not to talk to you like you're not in the room, but he's not an existing member, and that's that's the context that we're talking

about. That that's

Again, operating on this on the instructions that I have in front of me. Got this. And if there was a if there was something else in there, I would tell you.

Just for context, we used to actually interview each candidate. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And I've done that before. I've done that on commissions that I've served on before.

Or we did it over the phone?

Yeah.

We've done but you're right. We have in the past actually talked to the applicants because we've never had 12. So,

here's what I like to propose, and you tell me if this will work. I have a beside all the names, I have a matrix, just a table. Okay. I don't have r three names or even our initials. I just have a one, two, and three. We haven't identified which direction that goes.

K.

I necessarily have two, I guess. So I'm I'm a re I'm

You could you could mix them up.

These two guys could

Throw fingers.

Yeah. We could. So what I would propose is that each of us rank them silently, and then these guys pass me their ranks. I score them, and then we can publicly read the average. I'll average them up. We can publicly read them.

Sure. Guess what? There's no rule book saying it's wrong, so let's do it. I

mean Will that

No. That apologize. Yeah.

If I lose

my job, I expect letter of recommendation from all of you. But, yeah, no, I think that's I I think given the lack of parameters that we

have Guidance. Yeah. Yeah. I would say

I think that's fine. Yeah. Because I I do think that's the best way to do it with what we have.

I would suggest once you do it that you you go over it together because, you know, if one person says, oh, I I overlooked x, And, you know, maybe two people feel very strongly that a particular one should be ranked quite high and the third one's got it quite low. That's what I mean,

that's right.

Discuss If

it's done totally silently I mean, you if that's I do, you you could do it. You guys have to decide.

I agree with you.

I mean, that's the way I would normally talk to.

Yeah. Normally, it'd be a back and forth. But I I could see the concern of doing this in the spotlight.

Is it is the town gonna cover, our legal fees if

something Okay.

Defamation. No.

Like what we say.

Okay. Well, I I think if there were any discussion on individual applicants, we'd focus on, you know, what what the strengths are when they bring the table as opposed to, well, this person blah blah blah, you know. Right. I I no way of, you know, you're just going off of a paragraph of information. Yeah. Somebody's saying. Right. Okay. I'm gonna I'll try my best.

Alright.

And we trust you guys. I that's okay. So you guys I

would like to at some point revisit this process.

Sure. I've been taking notes.

So because I yeah. And I'm happy to come and talk to anybody. Yeah.

No. I've, yeah, I've been taking notes, and, I said, I've talked to the clerk's office, and I've talked to Meredith. And I think there's probably as with all processes, right, there's always room for improvement. So Yeah.

I just don't wanna crash our Yeah. Our team here. Just

Well, yeah. I mean, it almost seems like like Boulder County anymore when we have FTE hiring all

in our

we don't get a name. We just get a number

assigned to to the application. So you don't know

who you're looking at, what you're talking about.

That's what I did. I tried to go through this base. Well, I don't really know this person. Right. You know, I mean, can't completely do that. But Right.

But I

mean, that seems like maybe something for I

mean, especially when you have 12 candidates. Yeah. Sure. That's a lot of people.

Sure. Sure.

Yeah. So Okay. Anyway I'll give it a go.

So are you three comfortable with then we'll give it a go. Putting pencil and paper using

Luke's gonna lead us through the candidates and and the scoring process. I can do that. Different parameters that we're to eval or use in our evaluation. Sure. Hey, Luke. What was the name

of that app you mentioned about, for the email? Was it email, or was it for there's an app you mentioned in an email out. App? Oh, I'll I'll find it. No worry.

Sorry. You had a No. You're good. Yeah. I'm not remembering it right. But

alright. Well, we don't want you guys to be here till midnight.

Alright. Thanks. Thanks, Ken. You guys let me eat sleep too? No.

You're more than welcome to stay.

You're like, no. I don't. You'd like?

I I have no problem with it.

I just you know? It's like

meet you.

It would be nice to meet everybody that was applying. Exactly. Like, either in some kind of form where you get to, you know, have an interaction with people. Zach. I mean, I know this guy, you know, he's he's a piece of crap, you know.

Remember, it's recorded.

I know that one. Recorded. I take that back and I you're a lovely man.

Okay. Alright. Good luck, guys.

Thanks, Ken. Thanks, Ken.

Bye now.

Is there a pencil anywhere around? Yeah. Pencil? Yours. No. It's okay. No. There's Oh, wait. I might have one, actually.

Is that

the only one you have? A pen or a pencil?

A pen a pencil, please, with an eraser.

Mhmm. I can also just do a spreadsheet up my laptop. Sorry. That's a pen, not a pencil.

Yeah. No. I now I've got a pen. I just wanted a pencil so I could in case somebody wanted to change something.

Do you want me to do a spreadsheet over here, or would you rather just hand it? Is that easier?

I think it's fine to do Okay. Use this. Because this, I can just kinda I

don't have a pencil by me, so I can go grab one. Let me go find it. Just

That would be appreciated.

Would you guys be okay if we spend maybe just a few minutes just kind of grounding ourselves on criteria. Yeah. Like, what's I think

it's a good idea.

Yeah. Very much so. That that's what I'm hoping Luke is gonna kind of

And that's what I would think would happen is that the kind of counsel would say, okay. You know, here's here's the kind of criteria we want you to because it's really their decision. We can provide recommendations, but it's their decision. I think they're putting in in this in an awkward position. I think you said that other counties do it where the council really does the the reviews. I mean Yeah. That would because they're the ones who are trying to set the direction for the town. Council would do

the and Boulder council does the interviews for all the board and commission applicants.

I think that's decisions. Yeah.

And And I can see pros and cons.

But yeah.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, the council are elected. So from that standpoint, you know, if you don't you don't like somebody on a on a board, you can bring that to your council member. That's perfectly fine.

Sure. Sure.

Whereas right now, there's really I mean, you you still can, but, when you have 12 applicants, it starts really getting tedious for

Well, like Hill said, you know, I I'm delighted that so many people are interested too. Yeah.

Two is one. One is not. Thank you, George.

Okay. First application I pulled up. Sorry. We are Luca, that's alright. We're just talking just about kind of what important criteria. Okay. And so we had talked about technical just a few minutes ago. Dave and Phil would love to get your thoughts on it's kind of, like, very high level if if there are other considerations that are in your head.

Yeah. The things you write a lot for, why don't we just make make note of those? And that that helps us get happy.

I would say natural resource management, trail planning, open space acquisition. I would probably throw maybe the experience on previous volunteer boards and commissions and maybe community engagement, community. What's a good word for that? You know, talking with the community, maybe? Some community engagement, community leadership.

Because remember the questions, why are you interested?

It has to be related to the questions that were asked.

So Yeah. That's yeah. That's why I was gonna read off the question, see if this see if any of that resonates. Have you served on another board commission in advisory capacity? Please describe a situation where you're working with a small group and disagreed with the direction of the project. If you're appointed, what goals would you like to see accomplished on this board or commission? Are you aware of the time commitment? Those were the questions. And then did I say why are you interested in serving on this board or commission? So I would say yeah.

But knowing what this board does right? If I was to go on a sustainability advisory board, what experience do I have in sustainability, or why am I interested in that? Or same thing with airport. Yeah. Just kinda throwing this stuff out.

So may maybe I could just share some things that are out of my mind. This is the first well, I mean, other than Boulder, I haven't participated in advisory boards other than Erie, but I am kind of amazed that there are no term limits for for board and commission members here. And I you know, in looking through some of the current incumbents who have chosen to reapply, which is all of them, it does feel to me that there is an opportunity for fresh voices, new people, new ideas. And so some of the criteria that'll actively be applied is somebody has either an Erie or another community spent a long time on this is that good? Is that bad?

I don't know. But it's in my mind, it's it's part of it. I'm very aware that we only have one female applicant, and I do think it's important that we consider having The diversity.

I mean, it's diversity of a view diversity of viewpoints, diversity of perspectives. All of this? Yeah. I mean, it's not well, we do diversity. It's not a gender thing. But, I mean, that's you know, in some sense, it's part of it. It's just

And in my mind, that's where the diversity geography, I think, matters as well. But as well. We don't we don't have that line of sight.

So okay.

Okay. And I and I will say that there is I I do not disagree with what you said relative to fresh voices, fresh thoughts. The flip side of that is that there is a lot of value to having the history that we have with some of the folks that have been on here for a while. Just that back knowledge where we've been. Yeah. So yeah.

Just I I think that's right. I also kind of in the back of my mind, right, just in the two years that I've been on this board. And, you know, typically, I think a board will have an allowance for two absences over the course of a year or three, and I'm just, you know, mindful that there are some members who are far in excess of of that. And given high absence rates, does it make sense to have that same incumbent reappointed, or is there an indication that maybe there's an opportunity for someone who's able and willing to dedicate more time? So Mhmm.

Again, I'm not I've made no decisions or scoring on any of the applicants. So I just wanted to kind of voice for me if these are could be some of my decision making criteria.

Yeah.

How would you would you like me to just kinda go through some basic information Sure. On each applicant? I think so. So we have Cameron Hanlon first. I won't get into the ages and things like that. Employer at Ford Motor Company as a software engineer. He's a bachelor's degree. Interest in serving on a board of commission. Lifelong owner that explores all of open space of Erie for my front door on a near daily basis, avid cyclist, grew up playing soccer and utilizing all the spaces I could, works from home in software, education and background is in finance and accounting. I feel used to open space as of Erie so much.

This chance to improve and maintain the open space for another residents for other residents and future generations. You served on another board commission in advisory capacity. Last board was a member of the finance chair of my college triathlon club, being part of an organization with common goal and helping others, and that goal felt good. Major concerns were working among a device group of people in organizing team schedule events and funding together. In response to describing a situation with disagreement, when I was an officer in the Triathlon Club or College, part of my responsibilities was fundraisers.

I wanted to leverage Triathlon Club alumni network with Direct Mailer to help existing club members fund travel for nationals. The president thought we could instead fund the trip individually as students. I persisted and took charge of the mailer and raised nearly a 100,000 thousand dollars for our team's travel expenses. I've appointed what goals would you like to see accomplishment. More blended open space with more blended open space within the community, be a voice for noncar transportation and growing third space areas of Erie.

Erie is rapidly growing, and our open spaces should be an extension and connection of each neighborhood. And that's the last one I'm gonna read because I'm gonna throw these up on the screen if there's no disagreement with that. Otherwise, we're gonna be here for a long time.

And look there. The ranking values alright. Run from zero to seven, one to seven, and seven That's

for sure. Is that fine?

And we have 12 applicants. One through 12. Yeah. So we'll we'll rank 12 k. One through 12.

We're ranking the applicants.

We're not we're not ranking

their qualifications, for example

Correct.

Separately. Okay. Well, you all are Yeah.

Based on your discussion earlier, but then you'll rank them one through seven for 12.

12. Gotcha. Gotcha. I just

I saw something from Michelle. I thought this said

Yeah. No. That you'll rank them one through seven. She must have copied that from another advisory board. We have 12 applications that we need to rank.

I'm just putting this up by here, and we'll see if I can make this work. Okay. See if I can be two for two here. Okay. Oh, thank goodness.

Okay. We have Christine Fills, employer's primary solar, senior development project manager. Seeing, obviously, an existing member. K. Let you all kinda read that. Everybody can see the screen here? Yeah. I'll get

them up here as well.

Couple of Christine goals here. I'll just read these out loud here. Continue working on missing trail connections, particularly those identified priority for the community. Continue working on and identify high value open spaces parcels that may need more focus due to competing development interests and come to a consensus on those tab regarding our recommendation to the town for the village at Coal Creek. We're going to the next one, or we need a couple more minutes.

I saw on Tim Payne's application that he served two full terms, but I didn't see anything on Christine's about length of service. Do do you guys have a

She's she was here when I joined. Was don't know.

What year did you join?

I thought it was '18. '18 or '18? 01/20

I think she's been on since I've been here, and that's 2018.

Yeah. She was here when

I We had a couple of, we had, we had a couple of people who had dropped out, kind of rapid fire order, and I think she replaced one of them. It was see, I was thinking it was not 16, but 17. And it could have been 18, but I don't think it was four seventeen.

You ready to move on to the next one? Uh-huh. Here we have Daniel, I think it's Johansson. I'm a general manager of Cycle Erie. Let me get this centered right here.

Let me just say, and he goes by DJ, but, I've known DJ and his wife for a couple of years. They they run Cycle Re, and he's been a passionate advocate for responsible usage of the trails, and it's really helped get a lot of people Is that

the one that's over by the Fox Dog? Yeah. I'm right down there.

Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And he and his wife are just really, really good, kind people who have done a

lot for the community, done a

lot of charity work as well.

Let's scroll down to the goals here. Keep trails safe, well maintained, fun for every rider, families on ebikes, kids, and folks heading to Erie Singletrack, improve signage and easy access right across from Coal Creek Park, promote responsible trail use and simple education so more Erie residents get outside and enjoy it. Scroll back up here to these questions.

I I will say just when you're talking about criteria, I mean, loop the list that you shared that I felt very much was oriented toward open space. Yeah. And I like that this candidate in particular has an emphasis on the trails.

What? You guys can just let me know or give me a thumbs up or k. Ed. Gigdon. I don't know. Gagnon. I've met Ed before. Tired.

Scroll down a bit.

You guys what Amy said, Rameeni?

Thanks a lot. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that. I appreciate your your interest really. Yeah. Thank you.

This was an interesting application. I was I found it unfortunate that he didn't share the community that he had been so actively involved with.

Who who are you talking about? Charles? I'm here. Ed. Ed.

He didn't share what? Well, he talked a

lot about his previous experience where he used to live on the Parks And Rec Board and about twenty years of combined experience and different advisory boards and

committees. Yeah. Well, there was something else you you thought he should have added?

Oh, I just wish that I knew a town he he was Oh, oh,

oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ed's goal, expand the acres of town wide open space in Erie to be more in balance of with new housing development, establish page properties, open space, expand our trail system, connect more seamlessly with adjacent town trail systems, work with the parks and direct director to create open spaces and parks that bring community together.

Yeah. It certainly has a lot of lot of to recommend him.

Ready to move on to the next one? I am.

No? Yeah. Sounds good.

Ian McKnight is our next applicant. State. Bill, there's your

oh, yeah.

That that was you who mentioned that. Right? Goals, expand trail connectivity with safety and maintenance as priorities, protect natural corridors, and ensure long term funding model support sustainable preservation without overburdening taxpayers. This is Ian McKnight. Just a reminder.

Could you just oh, sorry. No. You got up there. I I find his first response there very interesting. Just think about open space as strategic infrastructure.

Mhmm.

We move on. Joe Swanson.

How about this one?

Yeah. Current member. Just kidding. Holyoke County Open Space.

Well, he is a great resource for technical stuff for sure. And weeds. And weeds. That is

a weed. Goals like to impact open space. I would like to impact the open space property selection process and how those properties are managed once acquired.

I'm just I'm kind of intrigued just in just as a general observation with three of the four incumbent applications that we've looked at so far that they've listed what they've what they would like to do. Just kind of wondering how we can actualize some of those wishes because otherwise, it feels like running for student council in high school. You know? Like, I wanna ring 2 recesses.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I just I love the ideas. I'm just like, to not leave them on the application paper and see if you can translate those.

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually would be helpful if if, if we had more public input, like, meetings and people coming in and spend three minutes talking about what, you know, what they'd like to see. Maybe we should spend more time trying to encourage that. I would I mean, would certainly help me to see what people are Well, let if they're willing to take a half hour out of their day to come by and talk to us.

We move on to next one? Mhmm. And Martin, current member.

Retired.

For Ken's goals, move forward with the former page property to preserve the open space values and build Spine Trail addition to connect the subdivisions to the north with Coal Creek Trail, determine if the current requirement in the UDC for the open space set aside is sufficient to accommodate additional users, preserve additional space excuse me. Preserve additional open space parcels on the OSAT priority list using TNAQ funds.

Yeah. To your point, Bill, I agree with you know, now we're we're forward. We've we've got all four. It would be nice to have I don't know if we we need to have maybe just a a line item on the agenda at some point where we go through all of our goals again. Okay. These these, you know, our four these four have articulated that, but Still should do the same, the three of us. Yeah. And we could kind of start identifying where we have commonalities and even sort of prioritize those and say, let's start actualizing those. What are we

Work plan move those forward. Plan. Yeah. I had that on the agenda for this meeting. Then, And obviously, with we we can push back.

So that's coming in April. So Right. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. Yes. I like where your heads at. Anything else on mister Martin's application? Just so grateful to Ken. Just in reading it, I don't I didn't think I realized he'd been the chair for almost his entire time. It's an astounding level of service.

I can tell you that he he brought he took what was candidly a basket case and turned it in that that often did not have a quorum and turned it into a wonderful board board to serve on.

And move on? Mhmm. K.

Kyle Precourt, Self employed. Who was the editor?

I guess what stood out to me was a land management ex experience.

Mhmm.

Firefighter too.

Scroll down a little bit. Kyle's goal, love to see more variety and visual interest added to the trails and some other green spaces around town. I'm kind of a good government cost conscious type, but I think things are worth paying for, and that could add some long term appeal and value to our town.

So I should ask

you guys. Are you are you scoring your applicants, let's say, top candidate number one or top candidate number 12?

I am doing a four star system where I'm assigning people one through four stars to help me categorize. And then once we get to, like, once then I'll circle back to him and say alright. I'll then categorize them accordingly. But

Will you it'll be a two part process for me. Or are you gonna rank them top to bottom, bottom to top? I'm just trying to understand because I wanna make sure that we're all ranking the same way.

So best candidate is one, and worst

is 12.

Yep. And you're doing the same? Yep. So am I. Okay. Thank you. Good question.

Yep. Yeah. That would have been just Screw the

algorithm.

I'm scared. Hell, this guy got 35 points. Oh, sorry. Didn't get Good on Kyle? K.

Logan. Corporate attorney. Logan's goal continued engagement with the Erie community on their desires with respect to trail system and open spaces, continued preservation of trail system and open spaces given the high level of residential development area. Continued progress on the BERT, the Boulder To Erie Regional Trail.

I'll say one thing that I, I know his law firm, K O, and they are spectacular, but I do love the idea that this was the first candidate who mentioned Bert. And I also feel that having some legal expertise creates a give gives breath to an advisory board that I don't know that we've had before. Especially as we're talking about things like acquisitions and funding.

Bit on Logan? Mhmm. Eve. Self employed, nonprofit executive.

Real estate guy.

We've had a few real estate. I think he's the second one. Right?

Goals listed here. Philip Town has done a good job in cultivating a array of open space that is open to many different users uses and provides numerous benefits. I would look forward to continuing that work planning for and acquiring open space where it makes sense while maintaining and enhancing the town existing inventory of open space. I'm especially fond of the special use open spaces that have been developed, and I hope the that the opportunity comes up to consider more unique spaces as the town grows bigger. Excuse me.

That's an interesting response. When I think about our special use open space, I've I first thought it's our single track, but I guess we have third.

I would put in that category, yep, single tracks, Sunset West, Colgate Disc Golf Course, Thomas Reservoir, Schofield. I wasn't sure at first what that what's the Well, yeah, I'm glad you asked that because they get Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We call them, like, amenitized open spaces sometimes. So we have, like, open space. There's there's big o, big s open space, and there's little o, little s open space, and then amenitized open space. Must have, like, probably a two hour meeting when we were looking at our green cities data. Like, what what do you call this? Like, is it irrigated, non native, agriculture? Is so hey. We gotta simplify this, guys, from an operation standpoint.

Yeah. We gotta get the lingo down, minimized open space. But we still need to have a presentation just, I mean, just kind of an round robin update from you and Matt sometime.

It just That's next month. That's good for next month as well. That's why we need a work plan so you all kinda know what's coming in the the cadence. So I'm really excited to actually present that because that's been something that's been lacking, I think, is just that in that kind of goal setting. Right? Get on I'm sorry. Who were on? Steve? Right. Tim, current member.

Russell Crumman, senior engineering manager. Tim's goals, I like to see more active outreach regarding trials. For example, we could host an e one eighty three sixty days similar to what Boulder does each summer to spread general advocacy and to better, excuse me, communicate these amenities, excuse me, and specifically trail connectivity to the community. Good afternoon. Objections.

Objections. And William. Advanced space space technology senior program manager. I don't know what that means. The rocket scientist. Literally. Let's see here. Retired military. Yeah.

Yeah. Big time runner too. Mhmm. Wow.

Hard Rock 100. Yeah. I jogged him out today. I feel like that's pretty good. Awesome. You got it. Close. Some of William's goals, review what has been accomplished to date and determine as a board what we should continue, what should be changed, and what should be ended. Develop a list of new initiatives to consider adding to the docket. Community outreach and inclusion in open space and trail initiatives is important, if not critical.

Let's get more people involved and feel part of the open space and trail network in Erie, find ways to emphasize open space and trails in all discussions and places as Erie continues to grow. William? Yeah. K. So we have looked at all of the applications.

Dave, do you want to fill in that? Okay. And And then.

You guys wanna keep my screen sharing up or just wanna look at the application? I can always pop it back down.

I'll tell you what, some of these are hard to

to

Oh, I'm sorry. We're doing it on our Mhmm.

And you can do it

on here.

I'll just hand it to you. Okay. Let me just it's on. Did you want this back, Dave?

I was just gonna just scroll it.

That's fine.

Feel like you're gonna get some wicked decimal points. Yeah. Feel like judging the Olympics. Right? How's your ankle? Fine. 18.

Ankle. Oh, are you telling oh, more of my plantar fascia? When you

were that

that long ago? An ankle. No. No. You had plantar with an ankle. Oh my god.

Yeah. That stuff hurts.

No. That's I was playing basketball, and I ruptured my plantar fascia.

Oh, you ruptured?

And and I had to get I was, yeah, I had to be

in that boob. I forgot about