Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

to order the september 5th 2026 meeting of the columbia rural planning commission uh we'll go ahead and start with uh roll call member wickenheiser here vice chair lynn secretary lynn here chairperson evans here remember chris hartman here remember here okay uh we'll go ahead and start with uh

a republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right welcome to everyone also on YouTube we have pretty good meeting here we have a couple small action items a couple guests who may become planning commission members um but the majority of the meeting we have some we have a presentation two presentations one will be under the final presentation the dcd project for us um after um we'll go ahead and take care of minutes were there any corrections or changes needed for the july 21st meeting minutes leave to approve the minutes as presented in the packet okay give a motion by mary second i'll second second idea good um all in favor say aye aye aye opposed likewise We have no zoning hearings coming up or engineer reviews of Sato plans, no demo applications. We'll go ahead to public comment. If anybody has comments or questions about anything that is not on the agenda, go ahead and approach the microphone. Okay. perfect let's just go ahead and move into our action items the first of which we have received two applications for uh members of the planning commission we have one open spot of the seven and we have alternate slots as well so we've received two applications one from else house sorry about that and colette shaw also submitted applications let's start any comments by the commission members

I would like to, in turn, ask each one to approach the microphone and tell us why they have put in applications and what they feel they can contribute to the planning commission.

You're closest. um i put in my application because uh council member buyers uh recommended that i do so um i i i've been involved with strong towns for a long time i i very concerned with you know making sure planning continues to be carried out thoughtfully and like if my application isn't in any way like oh it's not being double i think planning has been done well historically in the borough and i just want to see that continue So, yeah, there was an opening, or there was going to be an opening, and I figured I'd put my name in. I believe you were here when we had the discussion with the ordinance for the rezoning for the data centers, too.

Appreciate your comments there.

Pretty good knowledge there of different types of facilities and such. I think that was very helpful for the discussion.

Todd, who requested that you put in an application?

Ethan Byers. Oh, Ethan Byers, okay.

Were you born in Columbia? How long have you been a resident?

I have lived in Columbia since 2021. I grew up in Lancaster County, but not in Columbia. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Collette. I've been a Columbia resident since 2018. I retired two years ago and started working part-time. And after 30 years of working in higher education, I had this chance finally to really engage in the community. Self-servingly, I got involved over the data center issue. then just got interested I come to council meetings every time I can and I just want to give back Columbia has been really good to my husband and me this was my second time living in Lancaster County and then I fell in love with him moved to Rochester New York and I didn't realize I was in love with Lancaster County too so I dragged him back here and it has been a really good fit for us and so if we can give back if i could give back i was encouraged to check out the planning commission as a way to do that so i welcome any opportunity to volunteer both of you expressed interest in the town and planning and land use and all that sort of thing which is great i mean we've

at times we've struggled with membership and sometimes it had to drag people um who are kind of trying to figure out what their role in the planning commission is you know and i think you know it's good to see some applications even though you were urged good to see a couple applications of people who are very interested in that part of helping to shape the future yeah i will say i'm a fan of todd and um

i'm happy to help in whatever way i can thank you so what do we have a full member and i had alternates yes yeah so we have room for both which is great

so you know the alternate members are there um you know to be part in case we're missing someone but you're also at the table for any discussion you're at the table for the presentations so even though one is likely you know assuming council appoints both you know even if one is the regular member one's alternate you know if somebody's absent you know then um all everyone would be a voting member or all seven or less who are present would be voting members so it's very important whether you're the alternative or not because you are still absorbing the same information you're still you're receiving the agenda packets and presentations um you know so that's that's very important or we do have times of the year where we're kind of a few people so we certainly could have on the full board

The difference on a monthly basis would be that a sitting member would have the voting ability, whereas an alternate would not. But you would still be able to input, which we very much want. We want all the input we can get, all the thoughts we can get when we're dealing with some of these projects. Absolutely. And I appreciate both of you coming forward. at this point i would like to excuse me make a recommendation for colette as the permanent member which would have todd as the alternate so a motion by mary and

okay for recommendation for colette to be appointed as the seventh member of the planning commission they could see and talk as the altar yes all right perfect we have a motion we have a second for brad any more discussion on the topic okay all right um All in favor of the motion, say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay, great. The recommendation will go to council. They do the official appointments, and we hope to see you guys back soon.

And based on, you know, your appointment, there are materials that we can provide to you. I'll discuss that with, you know, we will discuss that. We've got our comp plan, we've got your zoning, your... subdivision subdivision land development ordinance you know there's different things we also have bylaws that we can share with you in stormwater management but we make this guy we make that guy deal with that for those of you not aware of this derek who is the burr engineer okay thank you very much

we have time to stay with a couple good presentations relevant relevant topics okay we have second item under action has to do with the CDBG letter of support we'll just have a little conversation here good evening Planning Commission yeah this this has been a real quick hitter for us here at the borough the

Lancaster County Housing and Redevelopment Authority have made some changes to the CDBG program this year. Normally we are going through the application process in like the May timeframe. Usually you do your letters of intents in like February, March, and then your full applications are due in May. So you're used to seeing me in April a lot of times or May asking for this letter of support. They did do a very quick round in the early part of the summer. It had extremely restrictive timelines that would not have allowed one of our traditional public infrastructure improvement projects to fit in that window. They basically they were awarding the money this summer and they wanted it spent by by the winter. So it was it was tight. What they have done, though, is after that first round, they've decided to open up a second round. And that's what we're going after now. And from what I've been told, this is going to be the new cycle of CDBG applications moving forward. Is the letter of intent will open in August and the application period will be basically now. And it's funny, they just extended it. It was supposed to be due the first week of October. They just extended it until the first week in November. That said, we're full steam ahead with tonight's meeting. And I already have a public meeting advertised for next week's council meeting. So we'll do the public hearing for our application then. But just so everybody's aware of kind of where we're at in the process, we've submitted a letter of intent. We're now here for the Planning Commission approval. We will get a letter of support from the Lancaster County Planning Commission, and then there'll also be a public hearing for discussion at Borough Council. The other thing that's new this year is in the past, the maximum grant award was $200,000. They've increased that to $250,000. So that's a nice little boost to keep the kind of the project ratios similar to what they've been in the past. Recent projects that we've used CDBG money on, we generally go after streetscape projects. So, you know, in the last couple of years, I always point out kind of the mill second street corridor. So kind of beginning at 4th and Mill, That section of Mill Street was done with CDBG. We came up, we did two blocks of Second Street, two separate projects. We did the 200 block of Union Street, and then just this year, we just wrapped up the 300 block of Union Street. That was our CDBG project last year. The year before, we did take a break from that area of town, and we jumped up on Walnut Street. We did the 9 and the 10 under block of Walnut Street projects. got kind of two blocks of curb and sidewalk done along their ADA improvements at the school. So we've always focused kind of on public infrastructure projects. We're taking a little bit of a turn this year because if you've been following the news for the last few years, we have some issues with the structure at Columbia Crossing. The glue laminated beams have been rotting since that, you know, the building's only a little over 10 years old. But We've found that there have been some issues with how the member connections were designed and installed and some of the end treatments I don't think were done properly on the building. That said, we've got some maintenance issues that we need to address down there. In addition to that, though, we aren't just looking at a, all right, let's fix the major problems. It caused us to take a step back and we actually did a full kind of facility evaluation of what's working, what's not working, what can we make better? And the biggest piece that came out of that was the wall that currently separates the interior space and the outdoor space. You know, what I heard in speaking with staff down there is basically if we had this design back, how cool would it be if this whole thing could open up? And I agree. So we want to do it. We mainly number one. would be a huge huge improvement for the sight lines of that building and really open up the inside but more importantly right now the columbia crossing is a little limited as to some of the programming they can offer because the spaces are not cohesive so when you look at a maximum capacity to fire ratings and just general space you have to separate the outside and the inside And while you can kind of reserve both for an event, you know, going to the outside, going through the doors, it just, it's not a cohesive space. So right away they discussed, you know, some of the educational opportunities that there are many requests that Columbia Crossings gets from different schools and educational, other educational entities that want to host events down there and they can't host them because of the size of the group that's coming. But our thought being, if we can, swing some big doors open now all of a sudden you can host one big event in both the spaces. So I think there's a lot of benefits to both here. so the full scope of our application that we're going for cdbg money for is again the more immediate repair needed for the for the wooden columns and some of the wooden beams the columns are the vertical pieces the beams are the horizontal pieces so not all the beams are bad it's just some of them that are ex and same thing with the columns we're talking about the exterior stuff anything that's interior to the building no problems at all that's not getting weather or rain on It's the exterior stuff that's getting the weather that needs to be addressed. So we'd like to do that. We did note that when we replaced the columns out on the outdoor patio area, currently they're wrapped in a stone veneer. That actually led to some of the problem because the stone veneer was actually trapping water behind it.

About halfway.

Yeah, you get about halfway up and then the columns are exposed. So the stone veneer was causing a problem. I love the way it looks. I really do. But also some of the feedback we received from the staff down there is the width of those columns actually create a bit of a challenge for anybody with a disability to walk around out there. The paths between the columns and the railings are pretty narrow. It's just generally tough. They get caught on them because of the way they kind of protrude. So we would be looking at more of a kind of a steel column. Some will put a nice finish on it, but we probably would not re-add the stone veneer to the exterior columns in and around the patio area.

The interior columns here.

Yes.

Those are veneer, aren't they? The ones where the opening. Are there

and they have the steel posts on them tell me again where you're looking at mary which ones interior yeah that was one of those i don't understand those are steel columns exactly from looking at the structural drawings there was a design change made to change those from glue laminated wood to steel And they're the only ones that are protected. So I don't know why they picked those two to go to steal, but yeah, yeah, it would have been, so, uh, that's our that's our project for this year um so we're requesting 250 000 there is a minimum 10 match uh which i was going to propose that the borough's match was going to be 250 because that's the same match we proposed for the uh we submitted a dced grant in the fall or excuse me, this past spring. And last winter, we submitted a statewide LSA grant asking for we asked for a little under $400,000. As of this afternoon, were informed that we were awarded the lsa grant they awarded an amount of three hundred thousand dollars so we officially have 300 grand secured from the state to pay for this project if i can dovetail that 300 grand with 250 from cdbg we're sitting real pretty down there that's federal state funds so they can match each other bingo yeah bingo does a higher match help with the scoring or anything i think it would i mean with cdbg it's never hurt us in the past as long as we guarantee to the minimum match again the minimum match being 10 so as long as we've committed to that it's always helped us it's not hurt us but you know committing above and beyond that can't be looked upon negatively so yes the nice thing is that lsa doesn't require a match So, and CDBG, the match can actually be in soft costs as well. So the engineering and inspection, which are traditionally paid for by the borough, that could add the CDBG match to it. Regardless, if we can secure, you know, a total of 550 for this project, that's more than enough budget than what we were looking at. It's a nice facility.

And the ideas that you're presenting here about the glass and the change in the columns and all that, DCNR was involved in those discussions. It was... The heritage area, the borough, DCML. Correct. There were a number of entities involved in putting these ideas together.

Yeah, our timeline, we submitted for the – when I say LSA, that's the local share, that's the casino money that gets – There's a round every winter for that. We originally submitted for LSA money in 2024 and were unsuccessful. So we reapplied in 2025 and that was the one that was just awarded today. That went in in November of 25 and we just found out today that we got it. So that scope, that scope and that LSA only includes the structural repairs. What happened was after we resubmitted that, we started pursuing other grant money and we engaged again, DC, it was DCED who we met with in the spring to look at a C2P2 grant. And that grant process is what kind of opened our eyes and made us go through this facility feasibility study and look at other kind of carrots we could put at the end of the stick to make this a bigger, comprehensive project and make it more attractive for funding. I'm honestly not feeling optimistic that we're getting that DCED grant. That said, if we get the CDBG one, we don't need it. So if we get the DCED grant, awesome. And then we're really sitting pretty and this CDBG grant really we don't need. But I'd like to pursue the CDBG grant to make sure that, you know, I'd rather pursue the CDBG and have too much money and then we have to figure something out. But just some initial feedback that we're receiving. We got some positive feedback on the LSA and that turned out to be true. We haven't been getting the same positive feedback on that DCED grant because they're, they honestly with that funding they look more towards you know new projects and expansions so while dcd really wants to support that facility because they were you know half responsible for building it along with national parks it was a tough one to try to fit in to their criteria to get funding. But that's, again, I'm happy where we're at at this point because all of those discussions and that creativity caused us to really outlay, I think, what's going to be a positive project. Nobody's happy about the structural issues down there. Totally get it. But if we can address that and then also do something positive for the facility with additional grant money, then it's as big of a win as it can be, in my opinion. at this point the structure it is structurally sound we're keeping an eye on it correct correct yep that's right that's right i yeah that's right this is not something we can wait forever on so with the with the cdbg funding timeline uh the application again now will be due in november uh my assumption will be there they will do evaluation and award in november and december and then basically the money will be available in the spring so with today's news of the lsa money secured i'll be working with our our public works staff and council to green light the design to get moving for this project so that we can target a spring 27 construction that was really our plan all along was we felt spring of 27 was a good time to target and we didn't really want to wait much past spring of 27 just in case we don't know how the winter is going to go so we want to be ready in spring 27. here we are with half our funding and i'm hoping this is the other piece okay okay um do we have a motion to approve sending the letter of support second all right a motion by tiff second by mary

All in favor, say aye. Aye. Opposed, likewise. That's approved. I'm gonna sign this now.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Okay, thank you, Derek. Okay, we'll move on to the Columbia Catholic Housing presentation.

Thank you, Justin. Good evening, Planning Commission members. It's hard to follow up a $300,000 block grant award, right? Great news for our town. I want to say thank you to Colette and Todd for their interest on the Planning Commission, too. Having been on the Planning Commission some time ago, it's a great, great opportunity to be involved in the town.

So my name is Paul Nicholas.

I'm a resident of the Borough and a board member of Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly. And the purpose of being here tonight is really to make sure that the Planning Commission sees what was presented to Borough Council in June uh because of the nature of this project the process had to kind of flow through Council first uh this is our fifth meeting with the borough three were kind of just process related making sure our ducks were on the road in order to get to Council so this is meant to be as soft as a presentation as possible we're not coming and asking for decisions or anything like that but hopefully um based on your review we can get to a sketch plan review and then you can see it more formally and we can go from there so i appreciate paul has got this there we go great thank you So five points to go through in terms of the presentation. It's not lengthy, and I can make it flow pretty quickly. But feel free to jump in. I would welcome your comments along the way and anything that might give us direction in next steps. Derek, you're welcome, too, to jump in and get very technical if you'd like to. So introduction and background, it's all in the details, right? So that's what it automatically comes down to. So Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly, most people probably don't recognize that name, but they recognize Trinity House Apartments, which was developed in 1974, and St. Peter Apartments, which was developed in 1983. And We've held on to the long name. The name maybe sounds a little dated. We do go by Columbia Catholic Housing, but the formal name is Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly Incorporated, which is the entity for Trinity House. St. Peter's is Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly, too, Incorporated. So two separate corporations. You probably can read our mission faster than I can say it, but for the people who are tuned in on YouTube, and this is from the original group from 1971 that established this. The purpose of Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly is to provide for elderly families and persons on a nonprofit basis, rental housing, and related facilities and services, especially designed to meet the physical, social, and psychological needs of the aged and contribute to their health, security, happiness, and usefulness in longer living. So in an era when mission statements have gotten very small, we've held on to our kind of longer mission statement. This is the group from 1971, Columbia residents, business people, and Monsignor Fiore, who was the pastor at Holy Trinity Parish, who established Columbia Catholic Housing for the elderly. Our understanding is that in either 1970 or 1969, Mary Loretto, who was active in the local Rotary Club, invited a guest speaker to come and speak to local business people about senior housing, and especially for people who have smaller incomes. And then from there, the idea really generated lots of interest, and this group was formed under the leadership of Monsignor Feuer to take it further. They established the bylaws by which we operate today, which mainly dictate the board makeup and the fact that all board members need to be volunteers, just like you. You know, we don't get paid. There's no commission or anything for our activity. And the idea of being service focused was really the key. They had this thought of establishing housing, but didn't want to really get into management and operations so the establishment of columbia catholic housing for the elderly led to the development of the housing development corporation which is now hdc mid-atlantic this huge group that has developed all kinds of senior housing for the elderly especially for low-income focused people so very formative time in the early 1970s So here we are 55 years later, we're age and income qualified, affordable senior housing, faith-based, not-for-profit, that's the full descriptor. The not-for-profit distinguishing from for-profit. So obviously being faith-based, not-for-profit, we've held onto the properties. They were built very sturdily. They're all load-bearing concrete plank and brick and block construction. held up well to the tornado with the exception on on 12 stories up on st peter's there was a fence post that got lodged into the penthouse roof of the elevator tower so 12 stories up and that wind is whipping things around so we have a roof repair to to do there it's temporarily fixed but we're doing a more permanent repair so um one of the factors in presenting this to the planning commission is that having two existing buildings and contemplating another project we have lots of basis for data that we can share because we can ask the staff what's happening what's the makeup saint peter apartments has 126 residences there are 178 people on the waiting list at the moment and 55 of those are columbia residents and hdc our management agent kind of distinguishes Columbia residents from the broader area. Typically, they say when they're doing a project, people within a five, 10 mile radius are what they see as the occupant makeup. So that's their typical statistic. Trinity House, 133 residences, 197 people are on the waiting list, and 42 of those folks are Columbia residents. So today, and this is as of our August board meeting, There are 375 people on the waiting list, and 97, or about a little bit more than 25%, are Columbia residents. In terms of carrying through, there's another slide later on, but one of the comments from the Borough Council was how can we, if we're thinking about a new project, how can we market this to Columbia residents first? And so that's one of the things that came from the discussion with the Council. A couple of data slides to share with you. This is from the National Investment Center. The blue bars show the number of people that are turning 80 each year. And then you can see 2025 at the bottom to the left, all the way up to 2035. The orange represents the previous year's amount of people that are turning 80. So 80, having worked in the senior living market in my career, 80 is that age when people are considering maybe moving to senior housing. Maybe had enough of working around their homes. A lot of people want to stay in their homes until they're fully in need of care, but that's a common age for people to move. This is another National Investment Center map data. The blue, the dark blue bars represent senior housing that's been developed. The light blue bars show the 80 plus population. And so that dashed line on the far right, if we continue at the rate of development that was in 2024, we're just not going to have enough housing for the people. And even within the last couple of weeks, there was a statistic from the Census Bureau now that in the world, there are more people 65 and older than there are children five and younger.

First time in the history of the world.

So the United States apparently is getting younger, but I'm sure there are all kinds of factors that go into that. along with our data of people who are applicants to Trinity House in St. Peter's, the need is there even on a larger scale. So a little bit about local context as we thought about this, and the board has talked about it further. We are Columbia Catholic Housing for the elderly, so if we're seeing this need that we feel as a board we're not meeting it, consider Columbia first before looking someplace else for land or for another opportunity. so in doing that you're all familiar with the comprehensive plan and then lancaster county's places 2040 numerous mentions of affordable housing and affordable housing granted can be in multiple configurations from infill one and two family to other multi-family solutions so a very specific focus from the board on that So there are three slides from Columbia 2040, the comprehensive plan that relate to what we're seeing tonight. This section on page 35, a place to call home talks about Increasing opportunities for homeownership, but also in that last line ensuring the provision of affordable housing so. Again, if you ever have the chance to go back through the comprehensive plan is filled with affordable housing notes. This this slide on page 39 of the comp plan. We think that the authors of the comp plan and maybe the committee members were thinking about us when they say encourage and support the development of Columbia Borough based community housing development organization and that the abbreviation the CHDO, their typical nonprofit community faith based or neighborhood interest groups primarily concerned with the provision of affordable housing for all. So. Kind of hit us. nail on the head there the the other piece that is highlighted here the last one from the comp plan page 45 talks about gap financing and it's indicating the difference between smaller projects that might be infill projects versus something developed at a larger scale so it says infill development is likely to be small scale in size and fewer than 25 units to a project. These smaller infill developments lack financial efficiency because the fixed costs are spread over fewer units and the cost per unit is higher without any corresponding increase in market value. Historically, these small development projects have difficulty securing public funds in any form. So the Department of Housing and Urban Development is a key part of what we do at Trinity Athens St. Peter Apartments. And if you wanted to get into resident funding and that kind of thing, we certainly can talk about that. So keeping this moving, the site development opportunity that we took a look at as we were thinking about this further We looked inwardly. We looked at the zoning map that you're all familiar with. And anything in brown within the zoning map is high density, multifamily, residential. And zooming in on that blue box, Trinity House is there. It's high density, multifamily, residential, distinguished by the industrial zones to the left and the right. There's a conservation Shawnee Run zone that's in the green. uh so that's the current zoning map we looked ahead for what columbia 2040 looks like and it's pretty consistent the bright orange yellow is high density residential downtown or industrial so that density going forward the borough is planned on keeping that higher density up it's not like our site and what we're proposing to you was going to be downgraded in density so which may have affected your judgment on how you think about this. Here's our site, just taking the previous zoning map. If you look at the larger orientation where the streets are, this plan that you're seeing is an existing aerial photo. You can see South Fourth Street to the left, Malt Avenue, top center, Fifth Street to the right, Trinity House, the Shawnee Run, and the railroad at the very bottom. we um first came our first meeting with was with mark stivers when he was the borough manager here in may of 2024 we brought this idea in and said mark what do you what do you think and he as you know he was an american institute of certified planner member very much balanced planning and borough management And his first reaction when we showed this to him, he said, you're not thinking large enough, you need to think bigger. At the time we were recognizing what the zoning ordinance says and what we were trying to fit in, he said, you really need to think about something that's 12 stories high, not six stories at the time. The board liked that idea, this whole idea is if we're gonna do something and we're gonna spend lots of money on consultant fees and engineering, why don't we look at the highest and best use of the land? So that Mark's comments really rank true. The last part of this is that in standing here before you and meeting with the Borough Council, we haven't hired any consultants yet. We really are looking forward to that kind of overlay of ordinances to see what this project is going to look like. So that's really our next step. So just in terms of size, there are three tracks that Columbia Catholic Housing for the elderly owns in the borough, bordered by South 4th and Mill Street and South 5th Street, about 4.34 acres. And so that's a lot of land to have in the borough. Trinity House itself, the building is really uniquely oriented. It's oriented along Mill Street. It's the only building that fronts on Mill Street. And that section of Mill Street is very narrow. It's only a 27-foot-wide cartway. The vehicles, if they're parallel parking there, it's really a congested piece. So the big picture of this is, as we looked at it, what would be a master planning design opportunity if that Mill Street right-of-way, if the borough abandoned it? conveyed it to Columbia Catholic Housing, what would be the potential for developing another housing project in the borough. So that led to this kind of concept, the idea of subdividing the left-hand side, Trinity House, developing all the support facilities and parking for it, and then developing a new housing project on the right-hand side. That new housing project, consistent with Trinity House and St. Peter Apartments, we would develop a new corporation that would be CCHE3 Incorporated. The bylaws require all the board members who are part of the original organization to be the board members of the other corporation. So it's consistent ownership. So one of the things about this is that we know the project and financing isn't going to be able to support structured parking parking underneath the building arrangement the structural costs are just way way too high for that so we have to think about the use of the surface land the building footprint how high the building is and think about it three-dimensionally so we're wondering as the planning commission will see this in the future and you think about this We looked at the housing data, the resident data, and how many people actually own cars Because for affordable housing and people who are in fixed incomes, they have maybe 30% to 50% of the average median income. To get in, the census data shows that the average income in Lancaster County is $86,000. And your income can't be any more than 30% to 50% of that per year. Less medical expenses if you have that. So you're talking... like $26,000 to $44,000 is your annual income as an applicant. So the data shows for St. Peter apartments at 126 residences, 53 people have cars or 42% of the residences. For Trinity House, a little bit higher percentage, 64 cars for 133 residences. So would the Planning Commission and the Zoning Hearing Board consider a reduction factor in the parking requirement based on the data that we see? So that's something for you to consider as you would think about this going forward. So if that were the case, a site plan, a master plan could look something like this. Here's the existing plan. and maybe at least copied you with this image. There's the opportunity, we think, for a building to occur on 5th Street, extended, on the right-hand side. The key to this is that with getting Mill Street, Mill Street could be developed as this efficient, double-loaded, 90-degree parking that you see on the left-hand side there. And the large majority of that would serve Trinity House apartments. The residents really would like more parking that's better oriented to the front door. So this would address their comments. It's a little bit of a walk to get to the parking to the side. We'd have to think about a clean break and the number of parking spaces that support Trinity House. We're thinking that stormwater management is going to need to be solved for that side.

And so we have to work through the engineering part of that.

But also, if we could get this to work, the dense trees that are there at the base of South 4th Street are really something we'd like to retain and not have to get into developing that.

There's an opportunity for maybe a rain garden surface stormwater management strategy right in the trees there. So we'll check that.

uh the other part of this is that and maybe going back to the bigger picture kind of thing there are residences that are up or access their front doors off of malt avenue in the center so having an access easement or as the planning commission would talk about what if it's an easement or right away or whatever the proper vehicle would be to make sure that people have access through the site and up malth avenue especially for delivery vehicles emergency vehicles that kind of thing so easement um maintaining the street as a paved area through the site obviously there are site utilities underneath of the street so they could all stay in place the 1970 site drawing doesn't show anything in that area off to the right hand side the one piece of this that I know this footprint is going to move around is that when you look at the where the 100-year floodplain is and in the borough ordinance there's a 50-foot setback from the top of the bank of the shawnee run so that's going to clip the bottom edge of that footprint so we know we've got some some work to do there on the right hand side of the plan is really the new opportunity the building you can see in kind of the purple When we worked with the borough on the Shawnee Run stream restoration project, there were concrete foundations that were put in for a bridge across the Shawnee Run. So we'd like the funding for this project to get that bridge funding worked in. It was never installed the first time around, but we'd like to see if that can happen. We're going to have to look at the floodplain and so forth. If there was a pavilion, that yellow box on the bottom of the screen, that was a destination for residents to go and picnic and be outside and enjoy the stream, that would be great also.

I'll interject while you're on this because you gave me the opportunity to get technical. Sure. I think I'll speak for the borough here in that the 50 foot setback that we put on the 100 year floodplain is consistent with what DEP requires for a non-detailed study area. I think the benefit that we have here is because we partnered with you on this stream restoration project, we have all of the hydrology for that stream channel. So I don't believe it would be a heavy lift. And again, I'd be willing to provide the engineering guys help with it. So I'd be willing to provide the the the the joint permit that was done for the restoration, all of the CAD drawings we have. I know you and I talked a little bit about that. I got to get that to you. We can provide all of that to you. And I think through your design, we could actually calculate where the true 100 year floodplain is. And if it's calculated through a detailed study, then you wouldn't need that additional 50-foot buffer. Wow, that would be amazing. Yeah, the 50-foot buffer is just there as a safety measure, not knowing exactly where the 100-year floodplain may lie because it would be in a non-detailed area. But I'm very confident that with the stream restoration work that we did and how much we laid the banks back on the south side, I can't imagine that the 100-year floodplain would exceed the edge of your parking lot because of that grade difference.

As you know, the Shawnee Run is really a deep channel. It's not a surface stream. You really look down into it. so that would that'd be super when you look at the contour elevation and even from last summer's storms when i called the staff and said how how are we doing in trinity house because there were areas of this like all of west enfield was flooded and streams were overflowing there was no the water wasn't going up at all right trinity out so so i think all to that point about a good flow channel being

yeah i think if you want to move forward with your sketch plans and assume that the existing kind of top of the bank that you have right now i think you can develop right up to the edge of that without impacting the hydraulics of the stream i'd be pretty pretty confident this this is a super result for this because we were thinking of heavier manipulations to this so yeah happy to happy to have a nerdier conversation on that someday if you'd like.

Well, I think we'll have our site engineer off to the side. Sounds good. Architects can be a little dangerous with that. Sounds good. so um just another opportunity just you know we're talking about big picture oversight kind of thing but that bottom corner of the new building really has this opportunity to have community spaces for the residents that look out over the stream look across the stream access to the lawn or nature so it sets up a really neat floor plan kind of layout and granted this is soft and so forth but The the areas in yellow would provide an entrance lobby, community room, kitchen for the residents, maybe an outdoor terrace and all of that with lots of glass that looks out over the nature that's that's there in talking with some residents who sit out at the bus. There's a little smoking pavilion there. There are mink that are down in the stream. So really great natural ecosystem that's happening there. In the center of the plan, two elevators that would go vertical. This model really follows the St. Peter's Apartments layout, where all the community spaces and utility rooms are on the first floor. And just like your house, if you have a two-bedroom house, all your living spaces are on the first floor. Your bedrooms are upstairs. So that zoning is what we're doing here. The footprint, elevator core coming up with lots of glass looking out. beyond at that yellow core. Apartment units on either side of the hallway and similar to Saint Peter Apartments, lots of residents will just sit out at the end of the hallway on the upper floors and look at the views out over Columbia and this high up and looking at the on the right hand side, the views out to the River Valley would be pretty pretty amazing. A typical unit could look something like this. And granted, square footage is really something that the business plan is going to have to sort out. But the idea of having an open kitchen, living great room kind of space, a separate bedroom, two closets and a fully accessible bath. And every unit having the space for accessibility as people age in place, if they do need mobility assistance, they've got turning radiuses and door clearances everywhere. So that's our base plan to go in with and not distinguish a disability unit from another unit. So just about wrapping this up, we do have a memorandum of understanding that Jack Brummer and Evan Gable, the borough solicitor, they were super in working through their memorandum of understanding for the Mill Street right-of-way. I haven't gotten a signed copy of that yet. Columbia Catholic Housing signed it, so I think that's imminent. Borough Council approved it just last Tuesday. talked about the columbia applicant piece of this and marketing to columbia residents first if this becomes a reality there's a fair housing component to this that we can't go we can't violate that because of the public funding piece of it so there's a little bit of a juggling thing to do there the other piece to this and even though there isn't a clear condition on the memorandum of understanding which is, it's not legally binding, but the intent is to be legally binding as we make it through planning and zoning and all the approvals. Clean Right Corporation, they're continuing their tradition of investing in Columbia. And while we've been kind of planning this just this year, they purchased the Alaska or the Air King building to the right.

And so they're our immediate neighbor to the right in the industrial zone.

We've always thought of trucks coming in from Route 30 to over and down Manor Street and feeding in I think they may have a plan that trucks would actually get to Front Street, come up Lawrence, Mill Street, and come across. So obviously, it's great to have two economic development things happening at the same time, right? That's the big picture.

And natural that you have housing zoning next to industrial zoning. You'll have these kinds of things.

But the Borough Council would like to have a mutual understanding of how that street is used. senior housing slow moving adults and trucks coming through we have to balance that that out a little bit but i think from our standpoint we'd really like the plan to get a little bit more real in terms of your input zoning hearing boards input and then how hopefully a business plan comes together and that's the time to present it to the clean right So some things just to highlight real quickly. Obviously, all of this, if we get to develop a new project, advances our mission in Columbia, not someplace else. It assists the borough with its affordable housing goal, as mentioned in borough documents, and consistent with borough and county planning. One of the cool things is that we're not using up any taxable land for the borough, so it doesn't take away other revenue sources that the borough might have. then conversely if mill street gets conveyed to that to us all the maintenance snow removal all the kinds of street sweeping all that those costs go away this project is obviously it's multi-million dollar project it's not unusual you know for this kind of thing in the senior living world so there are investment bankers that will help us and the financial piece that gap financing piece that's going to be the key to this a great opportunity for the streetscape enhancement along fifth street extended out the barber street trees sidewalks curving that could really refine that edge and then uh we presented to borough council that similar to Trinity House and St. Peter Apartments, each of them donate a payment in lieu of taxes of $10,000. This third property would do the same thing every year. So last slide for your comment. We'd like to know if you think this idea has merit. You would kind of give your blessing to go on to the sketch plan. We have a site engineer landscape architect in mind. for this that we'd like to have a conversation with. I think every, hopefully the planning commission gets copied with the memorandum of understanding document. You can see it's like 16 or 17 points related to planning. And then, yeah, the sketch plan. I think we would come to you next with a sketch plan that has ordinance considerations worked in and have, thoughts on what subdivision land development waivers might be ultimately getting to the zoning hearing board setbacks building height variances are going to shape the building which will affect cost and financing so so that's the process we see next and look forward to it so But open it up. Any questions that you'd like to ask about the organization? Of course I do.

I've been to quite a few senior places that are very similar to this. And I love your sketch plan, don't get me wrong. But what a lot of them, and you pointed on it at first for the plan, that the people were complaining about the parking so far away. Is there any way you can incorporate that parking the whole way around that building? Because where my cousin was, they had parking right at their door that they can go up to certain entrance. So that's the whole way it is around that whole facility. didn't know if that's something that can be incorporated instead of making it really nice clean and green but as you get older how often are they going to go out there to that environment convenience from parking most of them are in walkers and things like that to get to that door to the elevator to go to the floor that was a concern for me also are you thinking about any kind of balconies that might be incorporated that at least they can get out and get some fresh air if they can't go down to outside facilities great just things great comments that i've been thinking about because all of them are going to have balconies but even a small balcony that you can put two small chairs just to get some fresh air

would be and that's the the balcony uh piece in market rate senior housing we we did that for every unit and um even to the point where current balconies are getting to be 10 feet deep, 14 feet wide for real furniture placement, dining settings.

No, they're talking, I'm just talking small furniture just to get out so they can have a place to just get some fresh air if they're sick. And because when you're sick, if you just get some fresh air, sometimes it's a blessing right there.

Sure, sure. I think it's a great comment and something for us to really work with our management and operations team and see what they say about that. That would take it to another level. And it adds a lot more interest to the exterior of the building if we're able to do that. So I would be an advocate for that. And the fact that you mentioned it here will carry some weight.

It's just that I'm in so many of them lately that I go and I see what's going on. And Columbia has some great ones up there at least, or up there at St. John Hearst has a balcony. Not everyone has a balcony, but at least they have that ability to go out there if they need to. And they're not very big at all. And then they have stone walls up so high. You've got that. height restriction for a balcony.

So even a French balcony where there's a railing in front of doors that open up, why it's something to consider. I've not ever, I've not ever seen all of the retirement communities that you're talking about our market rate, they're not small.

I'm just saying it's a couple that I think I've been up to some in Wilkes Barre area that just new constructed ones. And they're really doing a great job. But I'm just saying They have to look at parking is more important for them to be able to go. And they even have small garages that they can, not everybody gets a garage, but they can put their name in for it that they can park their car in it. And the garage is right in front, right close to their entrance. So there's multiple entrances going in.

Protection from the weather, getting to that front door as quickly as you can. Good design consideration. Sure. certainly has merit and i'm glad you're back i understand you gave a heads up maybe to the plan commission yeah so i'm glad you're back with it yeah look forward to working on this project oh thank you uh we think it there's a great need for it the council did vote unanimously for it there was one council member absent so that was a great show of support as well and so We're going to have a conversation with a site engineer. We're going to get technical with Derek and really appreciate your willingness to help us on that.

Awesome project.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Very exciting. Okay, we'll turn it over to our friends from DCED. Thanks for your patience again. Some decision points to make, I think here with this third meeting with us.

Good evening. Good evening.

Was I in on the email? I should have been. Okay. Did she respond? I can check.

Okay.

no that'll cut her life

No, but if you email it to me, I can get it for you on film drive and bring it back. How's that?

Open door. Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Thank you.

down at the bottom.

You have to talk a little louder. It's very hard hearing you. It's like you're whispering.

Could the mic not? It was a little. It was a little.

Is this on? Yeah, okay.

All right, so. Kind of like paths forward. And then the kind of key difference, hopefully we'll have a good amount of time for our discussion, and then closing questions.

Next slide.

All right, so our progress report. Go to the next slide. I don't know if you can clearly see this, but on the left side there we have the tasks, and then we have a broken out by month. Hard to believe we're already in September. So we started this, we kicked this off in May, and we had our first two workshops in June and July. We skipped last month because we wanted to prepare for the final workshop. I have a little bit more time to develop three sort of broad options going forward for consideration to the zoning ordinance so we did a fair amount of analysis and a fair amount of working on this crazy spreadsheet there's a lot of notes that went into this but here we are we're in september and we're going to wrap up the third workshop and then after this we'll be going on to borough council with the other decent semi-polished draft document as our goal. Next slide. So the matrix that we created, which is a spreadsheet that has several dozen tabs to it that kind of cross-references different things in the zoning ordinance. different districts but what that helped to reveal um so some districts overlap in use permissions functions we know that um and by some fair number actually um some differences appear primarily dimensional or contextual um and not fundamental um the dc and nc were especially In particular, very, very similar. The two differences being between those districts were microbreweries and antennas. So, otherwise it was the exact same. We also learned that residential and commercial uses remained strongly separated. And there's some issues that may be better handled with form or scale, and potentially with a number like two or so. and so we kind of had this question of you know what distinctions still need base districts next slide and so the CTAP work done so far a lot of research a lot analysis and our workshops we did a lot of research we looked at comparable zoning ordinances, and you'll see with some of the options that we created what some of the justification we have for that. We looked at, last workshop we looked at Clymer Borough that had a form-based code. We looked at other codes in Lancaster County, Lititz and Mannheim. We looked at the simplified zoning ordinance Lancaster County rolled out recently. We did comparative review to the zoning ordinance, the matrix, as I just mentioned. And workshops were really designed to be sort of an iterative process. The first workshop, we looked at emerging themes, things that sort of popped out at us, like, oh, that's kind of a... kind of like a little story there you know kind of see that theme there and then the second workshop was like well where could we go from that you know um the emerging direction next slide so yes what did we discover from workshops one and two next slide uh key takeaways from workshop number one um simplification is generally supported We also thought that Columbia is basically a built-out borough. And I asked the question about, you know, would it ever be possible to, you know, grow its boundaries, and the answer's essentially no. So, a lot of the future probably lies in infill and redevelopment and hopefully tornadoes don't take out too many more things. But we also learned that form may be more important than use in certain areas. Parking came up and Columbia has quite a rich history. It has a very large historic history and there's a lot of pre-war structure next slide workshop two the last one we had two months ago in july a key takeaway there was that kind of discussed the hybrid or form-based direction that seemed to resonate a little bit the climber pennsylvania example it's a very small town in indiana county that was able to have a form-based code with five base districts and successfully run and administer that code. which was very interesting. But simplification is desirable, but not if it erases useful nuance. There's some discussion about the nuances within the districts of what, you know, if tools are able to, if there are other zoning tools that are able to help preserve those nuances. The residential districts are really centered around the built environment, what was there, ground truth. districts to what what is on the ground while the sort of the kind of the commercial or maybe there was like a little bit more of a question mark around what is really sort of distinguishing them The comp plan also recommends combining a couple of the residential districts, the LDR and MDR. There's some similarities between the low density and the rural residential as well. Next slide. I think there's one more. Yes. Scale and impact. are important and the central idea I kind of heard from our second workshop was that we started to think beyond if something is sort of downtown or commercial and instead ask whether the use fits the context on intensity, on form, and on impact. I also heard from workshop two that sort of this desire to start thinking spatially and mechanically, maybe starting with the map and identifying areas that are physically similar and then working back that way into the regulatory . So I won't go too much further into the takeaways, but just to sort of refresh our memories of where we're at. Next slide. tonight's purpose really quickly we've reviewed we want to compare um and then really just looking for your reactions and what to carry forward into the zoning ordinance report and what we bring before borough council and you know the three options you know there's it's uh it's not a it's still very broad and there's components of each one that could be valuable. So there's definitely room for customizing what we see. Next slide. ground truthing. So again, you know, the question of is if physical characters doing much of the work should the ordinance recognize it more directly. You know, we're looking at, you know, these are just some snapshots of here, hopefully it's nobody's house. Sorry about that. But yeah, you know, what's the typology? You know, are we talking about low intensity residential? Are we talking about traditional neighborhood? Are we talking about something that's a little more dense or something that's a mixed use or mixed with historic, you know, with those historic structures? So you can think a lot about setbacks, porches, lot widths, alleys, streets are part of the typology as well, you know, and how buildings front streets. Next slide. So this is an AI-generated image, obviously. These are the three bears from Goldilocks. One bowl of porridge is a little hot, maybe a little cold, and maybe one that's just right. Next slide. Option one. So option one really the basic idea is to consolidate really only the clearest and the cleanest redundancies there's some obvious overlaps with usability you know we talked about the DC and NC is a very easy consolidation candidate you guys have a historic overlay and that could easily be you know used in position to be strengthened to kind of help with some of the zoning here so what stays you know most most existing districts and names and the basic use structure would remain recognizable you know we're talking about coming down from 17 to maybe you know 14 that range depending what we choose but so it would eliminate a few of them and there's a trade-off with each option you know so some of the deeper structural issues that you know we've discussed in the last two workshops you know they may remain especially where the form and impact you know matter a little bit more than just the land use sort of label and the question to wrestle with with this option would be does incremental change or does incremental cleanup do enough to sort of help solve the problems right now? All right, let's go on to option two. So before getting right into option two, just wanna mention that some of the justification and basis for coming up with these options in these directions, we looked at, Lidditz and Mannheim we looked at some other ones in Lancaster County in Pennsylvania and we also looked very closely at Lancaster County's simplified zoning which is pretty interesting I don't know if y'all are familiar with it but it's very new and within Lancaster County 60 municipalities are over 550 separate zoning districts which is pretty wild to think about so They reduced it to 18 standardized districts. Just kind of impressive. Instead of reactively, this came right from their site.

This is right out of their plan.

Instead of reactively regulating individual land use types, the simplified zoning planning tool encourages municipalities proactively to proactively permit uses based on

inherent land use impacts and the intensity of these anticipated impacts.

So a lot of, you know, boroughs, not just in Pennsylvania, but around our nation, our small towns, you know, seem to react in a more reactive sort of way. And because there'll be, because everything's changing with, you know, as things are modernizing, as technology is rolling along, things are changing at a very rapid pace. And having zoning tools that sort of proactively look at inherent fundamental sort of characteristics rather than just the use. And so when a new use or a new novel thing comes along, you can, well, what's its intensity? What does that do? What is that really like? And does that fit in any of our form? And so you have some structure that kind of helps with that. So next slide. um so with that in mind and with lancaster county simplified zoning in mind and what some of the other municipalities in the county have done the simplified hybrid framework basic idea here is just reorganizing into broader district families and targeted form and scale-based tools to preserve that nuance and so here we've Lisa worked on this and she was able to sort of come up with a hybrid framework where we would go from 17 districts down to 10. And light business would remain. But there would be a borough core, downtown core, and there would be several mixed use, as you can see, this base districts, and there would be heavy industrial manufacturing one as well and then there was a little bit of a I won't say catch-all but yeah left like a remaining residential district that is would be set aside for existing that would kind of fit in its own form I'd say that if you look on your handout there, I've kind of listed the three options as just as concisely as I could. This would be a moderate level of change.

It would require a moderate level of effort to implement.

But this is kind of like a maybe the porridge is just right. I don't know. But yeah, this is option two. This is a simplified hybrid sort of idea.

Next slide.

So yeah, talk a little bit more, just again, it has a strength in being that practical middle path. It's broad enough to simplify, going from 17 to 10, but remaining still cautious about the local wants discussed. It would need rules for where the mixed use districts would kind of come into play. But overall, that's the core idea. And the question there is, you know, maybe is that the right level of change for Columbia?

Throw out a lot at you, but we've got one more option.

Option three. so I intentionally made this one ambitious my intent is not to scare you but to set maybe the edges of where the range of possibilities lie if we're going from option one where you know we're cutting a few districts down and doing minimal changes to a middle option where we're going from 17 to 10 this would be even a little bit more ambitious we're going from 17 to 8 And underneath the names of these sort of conceptual base districts are the districts that would be primarily feeding. It's not a one-to-one, you know, it's not parcel-to-parcel, but... districts that would be primarily feeding so like natural open space you know the pnc is obviously what is mostly comprising that um the riverfront recreational mixed use that'd be the rcncr mostly etc um so the basic idea here is um to organize around Columbia's recurring physical environments and let the form, the scale, the frontage, the context do substantially more of the heavy lift. It's definitely a higher degree of change. Cutting the districts in half, essentially. the residential approach. We have neighborhood residential. We have urban neighborhood, which would really consolidate a number there. A base district like institutional residential is a little bit challenging because you have a lot of that. columbia has a lot of that sort of tucked in with its more lower density kind of residential so again i'm not saying that it's a one-to-one where you know one district that i'm just saying you know um it's just where it could possibly feed into a new district um yeah and this would definitely uh take a higher higher effort sort of doing this right and ensuring that you're not trading off complexity for a different kind of complexity. The kind of complexity and in-depth you have now with the current zoning ordinance, trading it for a different kind of administrative flexibility and complexity really. Next slide. So the key differences. What are we getting from the base map? What does it do? In option one, the base map stays central. Other tools are used to sort of clean up the edges, essentially. Option two, the base map gets simpler, but not overly simple. Overlays and form and scale are gonna be the main tools you use to preserve that nuance. And then option three, the base map identifies broader districts. And a new set of form and typologies will begin to do the work. And each option then, if you think of it like a scale, each option sort of shifts a different amount of work from district labels to zoning tools.

And so how much work should Columbia

ask the base districts to do you know next slide right um what should columbia's zoning framework make easier clearer or more predictable over the next 20 years i know it's hard to think so far in advance but um the answer definitely will help sort of shape what gets carried forward ultimately Zoning ordinances aren't like comp plans. Comp plans get updated every 10 years. Opportunity for a full zoning rewrite doesn't happen that often. and even zoning ordinance amendments can be expensive so um thinking longer term um i really think is essential uh with this i'm sorry you know it's 8 30 i've been going lightning fast through this but i'll stop there and just sort of let the reactions and any kind of questions come come at this point do you have anything that came to your mind

Well, I have a lot of opinions about your existing zoning ordinance. Again, unfortunately, I haven't been a part of these conversations. So I kind of want to see, I'd like to do a little bit more research and understand kind of where you guys have, what you've talked about, where you've come from.

They're kind of higher level. Yeah, we haven't gotten into, well, I mean, our previous workshops, we've been really toiling on the back. But in terms of working on this project, it's kind of, we've zoomed out. These guys zoomed out. right and kind of approaching it if we're going to rework the zoning ordinance to be more user friendly from an administrative end things or you know a landowner slash you know investor reconstruction

that I think we're all in the consensus that things need to change with it. I think you have two things that complicate your zoning ordinance here. One is, as you've addressed, your zones. There are a ton. But further are the actual technical elements of your zoning ordinance are extremely complicated. So your permitted use table is extensive. Your dimensional requirements and tables It's just a lot. So I honestly think cutting down the zones would be helpful. So option one, absolutely, you know, is a start to let's, and that's consistent with what we work through in the comp plan is let's take some of these that are so similar and make sure they're grouped together. Because Columbia is a built out borough, as was eloquently put, Unless we're targeting certain areas of the borough for, let's say, redevelopment or zone expansion, I think the reason that you ended up with all of these zones is you have so many established neighborhoods and pockets, and that zoning was selected at the time to try to make sure those pockets didn't change again. the town is there's a lot of progressive things happening around the town there's also a lot of you know comments and i think desires to retain uh the the historic end of columbia and basically the the traditional uses of the borough so i i feel like you're my opinion uh on the spot here is you're somewhere probably between options one and two is I think option one may not be taking it far enough. I think you could get a little bit closer to option two of looking at more form-based, something consistent with the county. I'm concerned with the makeup of this borough and how established it is and the different pockets. I think it's going to be very difficult to take the county-wide the county-wide regs and just say, here's where we're going to put them. I've been around long enough. I think that's going to be a real challenge. Not that it isn't appropriate, not that it couldn't work, but I'm just predicting that that's going to be a challenge. So I would recommend you fall somewhere between one and two. Use two as a guideline for where you could go, and then work really hard on one to see how many more zones you can combine. But I think your real benefit that you're going to see here after you get through the zoning, no matter how many there are, if you stay at 19 or if you go down to 10, the real challenging thing from administrative end here is your current zoning ordinance is extremely complicated. It's extremely complicated, it's extremely confusing, and it's actually lacking regulation in a lot of areas where you should have it. So I think the zoning officer and staff here has to take a lot of liberties with what the intent of the ordinance is instead of the ordinance just being very clear as to what a shooter should be.

And that's not a good thing. No. Yeah, right. No. Right. And you don't want to be firing everything that is very important because you can't make a call. Correct. What the ordinance says. Correct. So that's what I... Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, if anything, and again, I agree it's important for residents and developers to be able to pick up the book and understand it. But I think it's challenging enough for borough staff and consultants to read it and understand it sometimes. So I think there's a dovetail effect that can happen there. This is absolutely a good first step to define, you know, the less zones you have, the easier it becomes automatically. You can remember them better. You know, what's corresponding to what, it just makes things easier, less chapters in the book. But yeah, I think once you get past that first step, it's really taking a hard look at your permitted uses and dimensional requirements and accessory use. The ordinance is currently lacking with your special exception uses. That's your biggest issue right now is you have special exception uses, but you haven't developed criteria For the special exceptions that actually regulate what you mean to be. I love special exception uses in a zoning ordinance because you can permit them by right one place and then use them as special exception with caveats other places. They're great for boroughs. Yeah, we love this type of use. We love this type of use, but if you want to put it over here, you've got to do this and this. You don't have that in your ordinance, that additional criteria. That's critical to make zoning work.

So those are great thoughts. I mean, I think, not to speak for everybody, we can all comment, but like, I think we were shooting beyond option one. I think that was our intent as we've been working through this. Three would be ideal. I think we've got to kind of work our way there. And if that means 25 years from now to get to that, where we're looking more at the form of the town or whatnot, me that that option two was kind of i think where we were headed one you know we agreed there's a lot of overlap between the districts there's a lot of nuance which we didn't necessarily want to use the map to deal with the nuance anymore you know so those tools to say okay well like combining these certain residential areas but what's the what are the avenues to kind of deal with those certain pockets or concepts without it being a totally different district how do you kind of iterate on that to deal with certain deal with those cases but more importantly looking at how these neighborhoods, how the commercial areas function form wise is ultimately what it always comes back to.

You don't need to go there. You're right on with the cost that comes into rewriting these zoning ordinances. I'll go back to the special exception uses. That's where a lot of these dovetail is. The more effort you put into defining and regulating your special exception uses, the fewer zones you can have. I think that leads to why you have so many zones is because you don't have a lot of special exception uses.

You can have a bigger area and say... You know, this type of use is only allowed on a collective street, whatever it may be, you know, like that's something that's a little more drives more commercial activity. You can do it that way without saying, well, let's say over here, it needs to be zoned this way because it's on a commercial or on a collector street. And you got, this is a different district because there are more local roads and it's like, well, they're almost insane. how do you kind of codify it and say okay this type of thing is a special exception needs to be on a collector street or whatever it is it needs to be located in some proximity just like Derek's saying those are the sorts of ways that we can preserve the nuance and collapse a lot of things and make it a lot more concise and administrative well that's just my opinion it seemed like we were working towards number two we just struggled with How do we deal? What are the key mechanisms to be able to kind of preserve those nuances? Just like you said, very well. But simply for everybody, for everybody's sake. You know, to be able to foster progress, but also, like you said, we're a town that We're proud of our heritage. We're proud of a lot of the architecture, proximity to the river, the Civil War history. There's a lot of things that have been successful in preserving and growing off of and using as economic development drivers to a degree. But again, you know, kind of the regulatory tools are dated. It's not uncommon, but at the same time, it doesn't, it's not an out to say, you know, we're not the only ones. And I think the comp plan process and the comp plan itself really urges us, urges the borough to push the limits to a degree. You know, three is a huge jump, I guess, sort of full form base. But two, to me, seems like it's where we've been trying to go. We just need help with the tools.

I think we're at two. I love three, but we cannot take that jump.

It may be a tough political sell. That would be a tough political sell. It's probably going to cost more. Thanks, Derek.

I apologize. I've got a jet. I didn't think we'd be going this late, and I promised I'd pick my daughter up and dance tonight.

I will watch the rest of the meeting tomorrow at drive-by.

Thank you, Derek. See you, Derek. Bye, Derek. See you, Derek. Now, I see us with option two. I think one... We're not really gaining. We're not moving anywhere. It's not enough.

It's probably amendments to the current zoning. Right.

The two, I think, is where we are at this point in time. I would love to say three. When you threw that up there with those eight, I thought... oh that could be the next generation yeah i think three is something to shoot for like justin said

for the next generation yeah but uh moving forward two is right around where we were looking uh over the last couple of years we've been uh excruciatingly going over this zoning district map and we had it correct me if i'm wrong my memory's not good i think we had it from 17 and we struggled to get it down to seven and we had it down to seven but we were trying to see how we were going to implement the seven um one kind of says to me we're having a meeting about a meeting so we're really not moving like we've gotten started like the horse is just out of the gate but it's really not moving two is kind of it's starting to shape the map to where our commission is looking to move, you know, the Columbia 2040. Certainly. So I agree with Derek and Justin.

Yeah, I would agree with pushing towards two. Towards? I'm not at two yet. No, I'm not at two yet.

I mean, I think, you know, one, I think is something where, you know, where we could probably take it. Yeah. I mean, Marilyn, I think we should go for that.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean that we can't push towards two.

12 districts you know nick our issue runs in certain areas of the borough it's so old and it's a lot of areas that are grandfathered in i think we can have one part of the street that runs to a certain district and then the very next building that's attached to it is in a whole other district right so uh we we definitely want to simplify down from 17. it's uh

think of the right word it's too much and we all agree we all agree that it's but it's hard for the staff too because you have investors coming and then very hard for the staff what would be fitting i mean You can see that there should be certain pieces there. I think we're all on the same page. We're trying to condense and combine that. Maryland's our reality check.

The process could, you know, as we go through it and see where those opportunities are, I think ideally the pitch is probably going to come to council to rewrite the ordinance. sometimes you're just so far beyond something of fixing something it's been amended so many times to try and figure out what to look at this and oh that was amended this time this time this time you know it's it's getting false there's enough that needs to be updated to deal with current issues let alone the consolidation and the different tools to be able to deal with um with consolidating again we need these ways to administer and deal with putting certain uses or higher you know traffic generating uses whatever may be making sure they're in the right place but also within the context of the bigger district where we started to get to and struggled you know okay it's like all right it makes sense to consolidate these consolidate those but what about this little issue that's between the two of them and that shouldn't stop us from you know making it more simple have you gotten the feedback you need from us nick we're kind of shooting right in the middle there right around these two

One's not enough. Three is kind of a shock and awe for now. Two is right around what we're shooting for.

A little funny story. I was talking to my colleague, Chris, and I don't know if I mentioned this to you, Lisa, but we made a little bet.

I was like, what do you think, Chris?

He's like, they're going to go for 1.5. I said, I hope they go for 2.5.

but yeah in terms of being realistic because i mean this is something that council's got to move forward with you know change i think would be seen as favorable especially ones that helps with the staff and landowners and investors um but you know they also know three might be too much It's a big job. I think it's safe. I mean, I think we all say, like, choose over time. You know, you could ultimately get there. I mean, the burrow. But, you know, it's...

a firm change is needed with the zoning ordinance yeah i'm a solid yeah i'm with mary i think i think we can ultimately get through it yeah but i also respect maryland like being kind of that i need to review everything that he says because sitting up there instead of us sitting here and just like reviewing all of that is totally different for me

Yeah, and actually, next slide, so we can close this out.

Oh, so there's an answer to go with that question. They're on their bed. So you're buying lunch. Whoa.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. Just a little bit about what will happen next in terms of schedule.

This week, I'll be collecting your feedback.

Feel free to fill any of that out or to email me or Elise will forward that on to me.

Whatever you're comfortable with, go ahead.

I want your feedback and your comments. I'll be collecting that. That'll help really shape the report. So right, yeah, September, that's this week. I can't believe it's already the 15th. So these next 10 days here this week, summarizing workshop three, kind of locking in the preferred framework on what that will look like. and resolve any kind of open questions. So for Marilyn, you know, if you want more time to look things over and get things back to me, it would be really helpful to get that by maybe the 25th-ish before October because I will be looking to complete a draft by October 2nd.

So you mean by the 25th?

Yes. By the first of the month, we'll have a draft. And I can send that to you all as well. Look that over. Get some more comments back. Council needs the materials. Lisa has informed me by October 9th. So they'll have that packet for the meeting on the 27th. And I will be there with the... with all the stuff. So that's pretty much it for, and then we're going to wrap up after that. I'll have a final.

thing to gift to you guys and to you all and that will that will conclude and that's it's you know it's gone by so fast you know it's just but well done yeah well done you're helping us get to that next step that we've been struggling yeah just like you said yes okay thank you thank you

make sure you two get copy of everything get up to speed a little bit so we should get these back here sure

Mm-hmm.

that makes a lot of sense especially because you know we're all volunteers but we sit here every month that we're looking at well we've seen a lot of plans in a while but dealing with zoning issues and zoning with planning so we look at we kind of look through the pipeline process and a lot of things so a lot of that is kind of more ingrained with us but with council totally different stories so you're right plus just the public at large who may not be familiar thank you

yeah change when it comes to the people that come to council is difficult it's difficult for people to deal with change but the the change that we're trying to make as a committee is what they don't understand in the gallery at least somehow is that the change is for the betterment of the community and the betterment of their households, their street, their neighborhood, and our borough as a whole. Right.

But definitely, like you said, don't just use the initials. I can say exactly what they do, what they do. That's the point there. They're taken because they're not here for a long time.

Understood. Mr. Nicholas.

Just also, when it comes to ordinances, form-based codes, people respond to great graphics, great images, great photographs.

I mean, I can go a mile more than I can work on screen. I think the movement of more form-based codes is thanks again everyone is everyone aware of September 24th at 7 o'clock up at the high school auditorium

a special meeting to discuss proposed changes to the Barrazzoni ordinance regarding data centers and any other business.

So that would be the ordinance that we reviewed?

I assume it's the one we reviewed plus further discussion on data.

Oh, she had the performance standards or something like that she was working on? Right, right.

do you want it sent to you it's posted on the borough website so there's a link to it there yes what they're going to be looking at on the 24th. I mean, I can attach that when I send the slide.

It's not the one to primarily change the district.

No.

This is text amendment. When was that ever advertised?

Okay, so they just want to discuss it. Yeah.

Okay, so it's... To discuss. Got it.

Because that's not a public hearing from the ordinance. Got it.

To discuss proposed changes.

Yeah. So this was...

Essentially, this is the meeting that we scheduled.

For May.

Yeah. We're going to take five days. Finally found a place to have it. Is it at the auditorium? Yeah.

Okay.

okay if you can send us what nick did this evening and todd and colette do you also want okay and you're on the agenda assuming they were going to vote you guys in tonight you're on the agenda for the 22nd so which we did

should we get these back down here to be forwarded i saw it let's get these to elise that she can send them all together she can send them all together these feedbacks are there yep you need them by september 25th okay that's your homework people yep my homework no problem

anything else for the good of the order no all right i'll take a motion to adjourn so move all right motion by mary second by tip to join the meeting at 9 00 p.m all in favor are you sure i'm gonna make it back for the october conference