Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, welcome. I'd like to call the Planning Commission meeting to order. But before we start, we want to have a moment of silence for our former Planning Commissioner, JoJo Choi, who suddenly passed away. We want to dedicate this meeting to him. So let's have a moment of silence. All right. Thank you. So we now rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I WILL NOW ASK STAFF TO EXPLAIN THE MEETING PROCESS. THEN WE WILL PROCEED WITH ROLL CALL.

Pursuant to Saratoga City Council's remote public participation policy, members of the public may participate in this meeting in person at the location listed on the agenda or via remote attendance using the Zoom information listed on the agenda. Public attendees participating by Zoom are automatically muted and are not viewable on camera. I will now call the roll. Commissioner Couser? Yes. Commissioner Shear-Herman? Yes. Commissioner Brownlee?

Here.

Commissioner Zeng?

Present.

Vice Chair Germerath?

Present.

Chair Lee? Present. Thank you, Cindy. Next item is oral communications on non-agendized items. Any member of the public will be allowed to address the Planning Commission for up to three minutes on matters not on this agenda. The law generally prohibits the Planning Commission from discussing or talking or taking action on these items. However, the Planning Commission may instruct staff accordingly regarding the oral communications. So I would like to invite the audience from the audience. So the first one is Jackie Holmes.

Thank you for hearing us. I know that it's not up for discussion tonight, nor will it be, but there was something I wanted to bring attention to the Planning Commission. I know how busy the Commission has been with the housing element, and I hope this is something that might be able to be discussed soon. I know in the past, because land use and zoning regulations are part of Planning Commission, the Saratoga Planning Commission discussed the village and its retail activities very actively, as they do in many other cities. As, of course, you know and many people in the community know, the municipal code has policies about active use retail on the ground floor of the village. It is possible to have an office or a service business with a conditional use permit. However, we have consistently had the problem with well over a half dozen, if not more, right now, businesses who have come in without a conditional use permit despite that policy existing. It's not neighborly. It's not easy. It's a bit complicated, perhaps, to ask an existing neighbor to leave. But I'm coming to you now because there is a very prime space that was a wine tasting room next to Pop House, what used to be Cinnabar, the two areas that have a patio. One of those spaces is currently open, and it is a very hot topic whether that will be in line with the municipal guidelines to be an act of use, or if an office will be allowed to go in there without any conversation or anything else. We had a situation where the space next door was briefly a bakery called Flour Flour. It did not follow the policy to get a CUP, a conditional use permit, to have seating outside without parking. That was incorrect. We understand that. However, the very first time one business put out five chairs on a patio without a conditional use permit, it was shut down. We have many businesses that have done the same in terms of not getting a conditional use permit, putting in a non-retail business on the ground floor of the village on Big Basin Way. requiring a conditional use permit. This is something I would hope the Planning Commission and the staff can contemplate. There's very important reasons why that policy exists. There's a lot of literature about urban planning and retail and the importance of a vibrant village, keeping people walking among the different storefronts. We have a very small village to begin with, and each storefront we carve away and make a dead space with nothing for a customer to look at is one less reason, one less customer who comes to the village and shops in the village and stays in the village. We have the policies there for good reasons. We have an open space where it's very consequential that we actually recognize and follow our municipal guidelines, which are there for a very good reason. Thank you so much.

Thank you, JFT. Our next speaker is Gabe Calabalto.

Hi. I'm just actually reiterating Jackie's point. I'm also a member of the community that is actively involved in trying to add additional vitality to downtown Saratoga by bringing in potential businesses and whatnot and expanding seating FOR EXISTING BUSINESSES TO, AGAIN, INCREASE FOOT TRAFFIC THROUGHOUT DOWNTOWN AND MAKE BUSINESSES HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVING IN OUR CURRENT DOWNTOWN ENVIRONMENT. JUST ADDRESSING THE FACT THAT, AS JACKIE MENTIONED, WE'VE BEEN INCONSISTENTLY APPLYING THE REGULATIONS REGARDING VARIANCES ON CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS. I'M LOATH TO SEE ANY SORT OF BUSINESS LEAVE DOWNTOWN SARATOGA. BUT AGAIN, AS JACKIE STATED, THE FLOWER & FLOWER BUSINESS DID NOT FILE THE APPROPRIATE PAPERWORK AND I UNDERSTAND WHY THEIR PERMIT WAS PULLED. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE APPLYING THAT SAME, I GUESS, USAGE OF THE REGULATIONS TO ALL BUSINESSES IN DOWNTOWN SARATOGA THAT ARE NOT EITHER COMPLYING WITH PAPERWORK OR IF IT IS A BUSINESS THAT WE WANT TO SEE THRIVE IN DOWNTOWN SARATOGA, PERHAPS GIVING THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO FILE SOMETHING OR AMEND THEIR OWN CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT RATHER THAN JUST TRYING TO REMOVE THEM FROM DOWNTOWN. It really is a shame to go through downtown and see any sort of vacant or open spaces, and it would be nice if we could get that up to 100% utilization. But we have to make sure that we're working with any incoming businesses proactively to make sure that they understand the process to be able to file the paperwork appropriately and make sure that they've got a fighting chance to at least come in, set up, and see if their business is viable rather than learning after the fact that they're, I guess, in violation of our codes. So that's all I'd like to say. Thank you.

Thank you. All right, Francis, is there anybody on the line?

I AM SERVING AS THE ZOOM LIAISON THIS EVENING. I DO WANT TO SPEAK, I DO WANT TO TALK OFF THE SCRIPT ABOUT JUST THE PROCESS FOR SPEAKING, THE SLIP. IN PERSON ATTENDEES CAN REQUEST TO SPEAK BY SUBMITTING A SPEAKER SLIP TO STAFF AND APPROACHING THE PODIUM. FOR THOSE VIEWING THROUGH ZOOM WHO WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK ON THIS ITEM OR ANY ITEM, PLEASE USE THE TOOL IN ZOOM TO RAISE YOUR HAND. Those listening by phone can press star 9 to request to speak on an agenda item when prompted. Attendees participating by Zoom or phone will not be viewable on the camera. So I don't believe we have any more in-person attendees for this item. Is that correct, Chair Lee? Okay. And we will now proceed to remote speakers. And I will check to see if we have a remote speaker.

Thank you.

No remote speakers for this item.

All right. Thank you, Brian. So this concludes oral communications on non-agendized items. Our next item is to approve our meeting minutes. Are there any additions or corrections to the minutes? All right. Seeing none, would staff please conduct a roll call vote? All in favor?

We need a motion.

I move that we approve the open meeting minutes of July 8th regular planning commission meeting.

Seconded.

All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes.

Report on appeal rights. Any interested person objecting to any decision on this agenda may file an appeal application with the city clerk within 15 calendar days of the date of the decision. Now we move on to public hearings. Applicants or their representatives have a total of 10 minutes maximum for opening statements. All interested person may appeal. appear and be heard during this meeting regarding the items on this agenda. If items on this agenda are challenged in court, members of the public may be limited to reading only issues raised at the public hearing or in written correspondence delivered to the Planning Commission at or prior to the close of the public hearing. Members of the public may comment on any item for up to three minutes. Applicants or their representatives have a total of five minutes maximum for closing statements. So now we're starting our first public hearing. It's application VAR26-0001. Staff, would you please give us the report?

Thank you. For this project at 146506 Street, the applicant is requesting design review approval for a major addition to create a three-story residence with attached ADU and for a variance to locate the home within the front setback area. So the 2,500 square foot project site is located on 6th Street, just off of Big Basin. It is within the Saratoga Village, though the project was submitted before the new village design standards, and so it's not subject to them. The site is zoned CH2, commercial historic. The site is mostly level. Surrounding uses include multi and single family residential and commercial uses. No protected trees are on the property, though there are a couple adjacent, and no trees are proposed for removal. So here is the site plan. The existing home footprint will be largely maintained. The first floor garage will be converted to an attached ADU, and there will be a large addition on the left side. The resulting structure would be about 3,420 square feet, including the ADU, and would be 33 feet 9 inches tall and 3 stories, which is allowed within the CH2 district. The front setback of the existing home is about 1.5 feet, and that will be unchanged, and the addition will also follow this setback. The required setback for the zoning is a full 15 feet, So a variance is required to approve this design review application with this non-conformance. Here is the front street view elevation of the home. The overall height of the project will be 33 feet 9 inches as measured from the average natural grade to the topmost point of the roof. And here we have the other elevations. This is a colored rendering of the design. This home was previously designated as historic as the main part was built in the early 20th century in the characteristic Queen Anne style. While it has since been removed from the historic registrar, the proposed design, as you can see, seeks to follow this existing design style with matching painted wood siding and window trims and shingle roof as the materials. And just for reference and comparison, here's what the existing home and property look like. So these are the required design review findings that the commission must make to approve the project. I will note that the project follows many but not all of the objective single family design standards. And where the design does differ from the standards, it's mostly due to trying to follow that existing Queen Anne style, especially with the front facade. And more details on these findings are included in the staff report. And these are the required variance findings that the Commission also must make to approve the project. Findings D and E will not need to apply here. So staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt resolution number 26017, approving the project subject to conditions of approval. And that concludes staff presentation.

All right. Thank you, Kyle. Are there any questions?

Yeah, I just have a quick question, Kyle. Last time when they were here, there was no project with it, because I remember this house coming to Planning Commission in the last few years. Wasn't there a project that came with it, or it was just to remove it from historical designs?

Yeah, so when it went before Planning Commission last year, I want to say in October of last year, around then, that was just to remove it from the historic designation.

Okay.

So they had filed this application back in spring of 2025. Basically, the first step was needing to remove that historic designation, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to do the work without it triggering CEQA. So they went to HPC, and then an appeal from Heritage Preservation Commission was what brought it to Planning Commission. And yeah, so that decision by the commission at the time was just regarding its heritage landmark designation status.

Okay, thank you. Any other questions? I do have a question, Kyle. So this house sits on the zone CH2, which is a commercial mixed use. The higher floors have residential usage, and the ground floor, by definition, is a commercial use. Is that right? And so the current design, how do we, as a commissioner, think about this current design?

Well, the zoning district is CH2. That's a somewhat flexible district in terms of what is permitted there. So it allows for straight residential uses, either single-family or multifamily, as well as commercial uses, as well as uses that are mixed between the two. They all are technically allowed, permitted by the zoning code. So it's kind of an all-of-the-above type of allowance.

I see. Even for the ground floor?

Correct.

Yeah, and I'm looking at the current design. I think it does not have storefront currently.

Yeah, there's no commercial element, unless they use it for that type of use. But it's basically a single-family home in its current state and will remain so.

All right, thank you.

So can I have a question? So, Kyle? So this is not a single occupancy after the reconstruction. So it's become multi-units family. So how many units are there in this new design building?

They're adding an attached ADU. So in that sense, it'll be multiple units. But otherwise, it's not strictly a multifamily project. It's still going to be a single-family residence just with an ADU portion.

So currently, it's a main... Area plus attached ADU, right? Exactly. Okay. Two units. Thank you.

All right. Hearing no further questions, now we move on to giving applicant 10 minutes for opening remarks. Thank you.

THANK YOU. MY FAMILY, MY WIFE AND KRISTEN AND MY SON AND HIS WIFE AND OUR COUNCIL ATTORNEY, LAND USE ATTORNEY. GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TONIGHT AND THANK THE CITY STAFF, KYLE, For amazing presentation, I think I don't even have to say anything. I mean, he pretty much explained the whole entire project. But basically, we're asking for a setback variance to build an addition to our home on 6th Street. And our primary objective with this project is very simple. We want to make necessary improvements to our property while acting as responsible stewards for both Saratoga's architectural history and its natural environment. The three findings, finding A, B, and C, for this Saratoga code, and finding A addresses special circumstances and architectural integrity, I'm sorry. To address these required findings under finding A, under Saratoga Code Section 15-70.060, this request centers on the unique special circumstances of this very specific lot. First, regarding the physical structure, As you know, as Kyle pointed earlier, the formal heritage designation for this property was removed a few months ago. However, the home intrinsically retains its Victorian and Queen Anne character, which I really want to preserve. This defining feature of this architectural era is the deliberate alignment massing and profile of the building. It's a crucial architectural moment for this very project. So requiring a 15-foot setback for the addition that we are planning to do creates a very unnatural break in the visual narrative. It severely compromises the historic continuity we're deeply committed to preserving. Again, the property was removed from the heritage list, but it is still a historic property. It's still built in 1895. It's a historic property, and I really want to preserve that. Second, regarding the slot's natural surrounding, applying a 15-foot setback forces the additions footprint directly into the root and the canopy zone of protected heritage oak tree in the rear. I want to correct you, Kyle. There is a protected heritage tree in the back that's in between. That's not on our property, but it's in the back of our property, which we really want to preserve. It's a beautiful oak tree with three prongs. So it's very important for us to protect that tree. Anyway, so the 15-foot setback would force an addition footprint directly into the root and canopy zone of protected heritage oak tree. forcing constructions into that footprint, like requiring that 15-foot setback, would jeopardize the root system and likely kill that tree. So most properties in our zoning district do not have a protected heritage tree directly overlapping with the historic footprint of original home. Applying the rule here creates an exceptional hardship that prevents us from achieving the highest and best use of this property that is currently enjoyed by our neighbors. So let me... Do you have a presentation?

Help me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a little slide that I would like to show. Here we go. Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERS HAVE SEEN THE HOUSE AND HOW IT'S GOING TO LOOK LATER ON, BUT AS YOU CAN SEE HERE, SO YOU SEE THE SUBJECT PROPERTY THAT IS THAT LITTLE SQUARE, AND THEN RIGHT NEXT TO IT IS PROPOSED ADDITION IN THAT LITTLE RED, EVEN LITTLE SMALLER SQUARE THAN THE PROPERTY. SO THE RED LINE THAT GOES LIKE NORTH, SOUTH TO NORTH, IS THE is the property line. And as you can see, the other two properties are built right on the property line without any setback. So the property where currently the architect is and Hernandez's property in between is built right on the setback line. And that's all I am asking for. It's to allow us to have exactly the same privilege as the other neighbors to build on the property setback line. SO LET ME MOVE TO B AND C, WHICH IS NEIGHBORHOOD COMPATIBILITY AND PUBLIC WELFARE. REGARDING FINDING B, GRANTING THIS VARIANCE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A SPECIAL PRIVILEGE.

THIS IS PERFECT.

THANK YOU. AGAIN, WE ARE NOT ASKING FOR EXTRA BUILDING RIGHTS. We're simply asking to align the addition with the existing house line. So as you can see here, on the top picture, this is the existing structure, this is how it looks like. This isn't, I would say, an AI rendering. It's not an actual picture, but that's how the property looks like right on the top, and on the bottom, you still see the existing structure on the right, and then the addition would be on the left side, which would be built right next to or on the same line with the current structure. Again, we're not asking for extra building rights. We're simply asking to align the addition with the existing house line, and this preserves the home's aesthetic protects the tree, which is in the back, and remains entirely consistent with the limitation of surrounding properties, which you have seen on the previous slide. Regarding finding C, the proposal will not be detrimental to public health, safety, or welfare. In fact, it actively serves the public interest. by protecting a mature heritage tree and preserving the local tree canopy while maintaining the historic streetscape and aesthetic character that benefits the entire neighborhood. In conclusion, I have only a minute to go. We're submitting this application with great respect for your role and the city's guidelines. And we sincerely believe that aligning this addition is the most environmentally responsible way to protect our heritage tree while honoring the classic historic look of the home so it can truly beautify the village of Saratoga for years to come. I thank you for thoughtful consideration for our request and our legal team, our counsel, the contractor is on Zoom and the design team is on Zoom. If you have any questions, feel free. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Is there any questions from Commissioner to the applicant? We do have a question for you. Yes.

Yes.

Yes, the building you're referencing or the two buildings you're referencing as your benchmark that have no set, basically no setback. Correct. Would you be willing to adhere to the same conditions and agree as a condition of approval to extend the sidewalk at the same width as the two properties that you're referencing and extend it in front of yours so that the public may park on the spot? Because right now there's a fence there that the public, you're blocking the public access for parking.

Right. No, I would not. And the reason why is I already, which is already discussed with Public Works, the, well, yes and no. We have an agreement with Public Works that The front will stay exactly the way it is, including the little fence and no sidewalk. However, the city of Saratoga has an option. In the future, at any time, if the city of Saratoga finds that City of Saratoga needs a walkway, they can ask me to put a walkway, and I will have to approve it. So we already have an agreement with Public Works on that, which I can provide to you. So Public Works already approved that. It's a future agreement.

Okay. Would you be willing to move that future agreement forward as a condition of approvals to get your project approved? Sure. Okay.

Sure.

All right. Staff, Kyle, this is a good, okay procedure for us to make that modification.

Yeah, I don't think there's any issue with it. Yeah, Public Works has that agreement in place currently with the attorneys. It's been reviewed by the city attorney. It's in place between the applicant and the city. So just moving that existing agreement forward.

Yeah, I'd say that, just so we're clear, that the, we, as a condition of approval, we would require you to apply for the variance or whatever permits are needed to do that, and you would put it in at your expense as part of the project. Yeah, of course. Thank you. Yeah.

Just to be clear, so the project wouldn't be denied because of that, but this is really just a collaboration with the applicant on the condition to put it in sooner?

I just wanted to add that if the staff has recommended and Public Works has that agreement with the applicant, that I don't see why we need to make any adjustments to the way it is. But I think that we need to wait until we get into our discussion phase. Right now, I think we have to do public comments and then get into discussion. I just want to make that comment.

We'll talk about that in our discussion. All right. Thank you.

Thank you. Any other questions for me?

I think we're good for the question sessions. So now we'll move on. We'll open public comment on this project. The first speaker is Marilyn Marchetti.

Good evening. commissioners. Marilyn Marchetti, most of you know me. I was on the Heritage Preservation Commission for eight and a half years. I'm currently on the Saratoga Historic Foundation Board of Directors. And I'm here speaking on behalf of myself because I happen to be a neighbor in this neighborhood. I live right down the street from this property. And I've lived there for over 35 years, so I know what's been going on on my street for a very long time. And as the homeowner has already expressed, this is a Queen Anne Victorian home that was recently removed from the landmark designation. But the homeowner has, I really appreciate, and the neighborhood appreciates the fact they want to maintain that historical significance of that Queen Anne Victorian. And I think they're going to continue to do that. And the way that I had an opportunity to review the plans and as presented tonight, he's just bringing the addition up to right where the old property, the historic home already is. He's in alignment with that. So I don't see any reason why we would not or the Planning Commission would not allow an exception and allow the variance on the setback as requested by the new homeowner. And I think that's all I wanted to say. I think that's it. Thank you if you don't have any questions. And we love that Victorian home in our neighborhood. It's an asset for our neighborhood and our entire community, and we really respect the fact that they're going to maintain that historic significance. Thank you if you don't have any questions.

Okay. Thank you, Myron. Staff, would you please help to check if anyone is online?

I see no hands raised.

All right. All right. This will conclude public comment item for this item. So next we're going to have, I think, the closing remarks. Five minutes. Do you have any closing remarks?

Thank you. Thank you. Nothing else to discuss. Everybody addressed the points. And I appreciate Marilyn and everybody else supporting us. And Saratoga is going to be beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you. So now this concludes the public comment on this item. Now we start our commission discussion period. Please go ahead.

I just want to clarify. So after this variance for the reduced furnace setback, so we are shrinking the different setback from 15 feet to 1 feet and 6 inches, which is very tiny, very little. So is that, how about the neighboring, like what is the reference setback in that area? I mean, this to me is just too short distance as a setback.

Just to clarify on that, so the existing home, is already non-complying with that front setback. So the code requires for the zoning district 15 feet in the front. The existing residence is only, I think, one foot, three inches. And because it's a design review project, not only would what they're adding on have to be pushed back to the full 15 feet, they would actually have to move the existing front facade back a full 14 feet to comply with that front setback because design review requires them to correct all existing non-conformances. So the change won't bring the home any closer to the street or to the front property line than it already is. They'll basically just maintain that existing non-conforming setback. less than 15 feet. Okay. All right. Thank you.

Yeah. Badri.

Just a quick question. Are neighboring homes there respecting the 15 feet setback? I mean, from a satellite view, I see some of the neighboring homes are farther back, but I don't know if it's 15 feet.

So on the left side, there's commercial uses that are actually zoned CH1, so slightly different zoning, which does not have that same 15-foot setback. And as Ismar pointed out, that commercial building has essentially zero setback. So that's pretty in line with this project and with how the home already is. On the other side, on the right side, that home is set back a little bit more. I don't know if it's at a full 15 feet. It is set back more than this residence. So that's the condition of the two neighboring homes. Across the street, it's a multifamily zoned residential multifamily. So setbacks are a bit different there. So, you know, there's no... cohesive streetscape setback in place for this part of 6th Street, but it's not necessarily greater than what's around it, especially in terms of the left side already being at a zero setback.

I'd love to at some time revisit why 15 feet for such a small lot. It feels excessive, so we should probably potentially at some point in the future discuss that.

Yeah, this lot is nonconforming with size for the zoning district, so that is another unique thing about it. Most CH2 lots are larger. I think the standard is like three times the size of this one, so then it would be easier to meet, but it's difficult for this small lot. Got it. Thank you.

All right. Clenton.

So for this item, we need to make design review findings and the variance findings. So I just wanted to speak on both of those. For the design review findings, the mass, sizing, facade shape, you know, just is all within our city code. And so I can make all of the design review findings. And then for the variance, we've already been discussing that the project is just Bringing the front face of the house to its existing one and a half foot setback and neighboring properties have a similar setback So I can make all the variance findings as well. I just wanted to lodge my

Yeah, but I just want to make an addition. So the neighboring front setback is actually the commercial. It's used as a mixed commercial property, right? But this one has no mixed commercial. So one and a half feet, to me, is still very, very short. Is that convenient for the people living there or for the people, you know, the pedestrians in the past that the property, is that going to be any, you know, I don't know. I just feel like it's not really right.

So most of the village, like along Big Basin, that's all zoned CH1, so slightly differently. But having basically zero setbacks is common for much of the village. So from a pedestrian standpoint, I guess it's not really that different or much of a nonconformance from the area. You know, the setback is from the property line, so there's still the city right-of-way. In this case, it'll still be about, I think, eight or nine feet from the front property line to the actual street. So there's still a right-of-way there. You know, the actual home will appear to be, like, I think about 10 feet in total from the actual edge-of-street pavement. Okay, thank you, Kyle.

I think Paul is next.

Okay, I'll just talk about the setbacks a little bit. If you look at it, walking up from Big Basin, you walk by two pieces of commercial property that have no setbacks. You come to this piece of property, which currently has encroached the setback with a fence blocking pedestrian access on the side, and also because of the fence, it blocks anybody being able to get out of their car. using the parking place that's in front of the structure right now. As you continue up the street to the question you asked, you go into several more residential homes. And as was just mentioned, those are set back much further. And to your point, when I was walking it, I don't know whether it's the true 15 feet or not. But I'm going to say it's probably about that. So on one side of it, you have people that are honoring the 15 feet. or apparently, and you have people who are treating it as their commercial zoning and being basically at the property line. It's because of that that I'm making the recommendation that we treat the property, if they wish to be forward as that other commercial property, then we require that they put the sidewalk in as the other commercial properties have. That's going to allow continued pedestrian access past that as opposed to forcing them into the street. It will also give us two more city parking places because you're going to be able to be able to park in front of that residence now and be able to get out of your car safely. I mean, right now you can't get out of your car on that side if you're a pedestrian. So that's the reason for in return for granting them the variance from the 15 feet, I'd like to require that they put in the sidewalk and grant the the public use of that spot, I think aesthetically it'll match because the front, all this commercial, there'll now be three pieces of commercial property that'll have the same setbacks and then you'll break into the two residential ones that are closer to the 15 that are normally required. And so that's the reason for advocating that position.

I have a question for Cindy. So if I heard you right, we cannot add a new condition to approve this?

You can add a condition if it's based on the findings for approval.

But this is not?

You just need to be careful.

Because this is not something, if I understand it correctly, the applicant has already got an agreement with the city, the Public Works, and Public Works is not saying that needs to be a condition. So us as Planning Commission can't put a condition like this, correct?

I would suggest that you add it as a recommendation. And the applicant has already agreed, and they seem very willing to do that.

I just want to make sure that we do it correctly and not, you know, so in other words, we don't need to amend what's presented in terms of the proposal we make. We just add a recommendation after the vote. Is that how it would be?

That would be my recommendation. The Public Works Department did review this, and they did provide a number of conditions of approval, and the sidewalk was not one of those recommendations.

If I could, I'll just respond to that. I think it is part of the conditions approval. If you look at number two, I have to put them back up again, but there's the one that says that it cannot be a special case. It has to be consistent with what is being done around it. In this case, what's being done around it for people that are encroaching into that setback they've put a sidewalk in. So I think that it absolutely can be a conditional of approval. And it's based on if we don't make that a conditional approval, then I'm not going to be able to make that specific finding.

Correct, but I don't think the staff sees it that way. And because they're the experts in reviewing these, I would be kind of hesitant to put that in as a condition of approval. I would be more comfortable making a recommendation about it because we want to make sure that it is correctly done. And if Cindy says otherwise, I don't have an issue.

So let me read the finding. I think this is the finding that you're referencing. So that if indeed the commission feels that the condition is necessary to make the finding, then I think it's supported. So you said finding B? That the granting of variance will not constitute a grant of special privilege inconsistent with the limitations of other properties in the vicinity and classified in the same zoning district.

That's the one.

But isn't that other, this is the first residential property before that is commercial, so how do we compare the two things as any special?

This is a commercial property that we're approving. It's a C2.

No, but it is a residential, it's a zoning.

It's zoning C2.

No, zoning is that, but it's residential.

It's a residential use, but a commercial zoning. Or the zoning allows both. Name of the zoning is commercial historic.

Okay. So my understanding is staff is okay for us to put this condition?

No, she said she recommends that we...

But if you state the reason that it's needed to make the finding, then I would say it's okay.

Okay?

Yeah.

I think that's good. Any further questions? Do you have more questions?

To me, it's more of just an opinion. But the other houses which have further setbacks don't have at least or which I set back a little bit further back, don't seem to have that extra parking that we talk about. I mean, there's landscaping coming all the way up to the street there, too. So if I were to park there, I wouldn't be able to get out. And these guys have a fence, but the other properties are no better, at least from my opinion. So we're nitpicking on this right now, is what I feel.

And you can always make a motion and call for the vote as well.

All right.

So anyone want to make a motion? If no one's going to make, to get the vote right, The motion I'm going to make in a minute is that we approve the project subject to an addition condition of approval that the sidewalk be extended at the same width and the owner will bear the permitting and cost of that. That will be the condition of approval that I will put on there. So I guess I'll go ahead and make that motion.

Any second?

I second it.

Any other motion? I'd like to make the motion that we accept as presented by staff. Any second? Bhadri seconded.

I seconded.

All right.

Well, we have to take a vote. We'll vote.

Go to the microphone.

If you leave that motion on the floor now, the staff actually recommended that we adopt the resolution with a recommendation which you've left.

The recommendation can come after we adopt the resolution. We can recommend. It's not part of the motion.

Okay. Thank you for clarifying.

Okay.

Staff, start the vote for the second motion. Second motion.

Okay. Can you repeat the motion?

I want, the motion is as presented by staff, with no changes, and the recommendation will come after we, if the motion passes.

Okay, and we have a second. Commissioner Couser?

Yes.

Commissioner Sridharan? Yes. Commissioner Brownlee? No. Commissioner Zeng? No. Commissioner Germerod? No. Chair Lee? No.

Okay.

And now I'll take a vote on the first motion. Can you repeat the motion, please?

that we adopt the resolution 26017, approving the project subject to the conditions of approval which are included in the attachment plus an additional condition of approval that at the applicant's expense, that they get the permits and pay for a sidewalk along the front of the property at the same width as is existing on the two pieces of property towards Big Basin Way.

Can I make a friendly amendment? Because what Cindy said was you can't make a condition of approval. What you can say is you can't find a finding, and for that reason you're doing that. Yes.

Okay. What's inserted in that sentence is that with the finding B, I think you said, in order to make that finding, we have to make the following additional condition of approval.

Yes.

Are we okay now? Thank you for the help.

Okay. So we had a second. I'll call for the vote. Commissioner Couser? Yes. Commissioner, she's around. Sure. Commissioner Brownlee? Yes. Commissioner Singh? Yes. Vice Chair Grimrod?

Yes.

And Chair Lee? Yes. Thank you. Motion passes unanimously. All right.

Thank you. Let's conclude this application, VAR 26-0001. All right, now we start the second. We're going to move on to the next application, APTR 26-0002, 12459 Saratoga Creek Drive. So now, staff, please give us a report.

Just give me one moment. Sorry about that, and thank you for your patience. Good evening, commissioners. It's good to see you again. Today I'll be presenting a tree appeal, APTR 2602, appealing the denial for tree permit 26182. The property is a single-story home in a neighborhood along Saratoga Creek off of Cox Avenue. The Deodar Cedar is located in the front yard on the corner of Saratoga Creek Drive and Raleigh Place. It's predominantly visible from the street, and it contributes to shade, privacy, and the aesthetic appearance of the property. In 2019, John and Tamina applied to remove the Deodar Cedar in the front yard. The permit was denied and appealed to the Planning Commission. On October 9, 2019, the Commission was unable to make any findings to support the removal of the tree, and the appeal was denied. During a significant storm, the tree lost a large limb, which broke additional limbs as it fell. There was no sign of disease or decay present in the broken limbs or trunk. Healthy trees can drop limbs during a severe storm event, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the tree is unhealthy. In July 2026, they again applied to remove the deodar cedar. I determined that no significant changes had taken place and was still unable to make the findings to support the removal. The determination was appealed on July 23rd, 2026. The criteria that must be considered for tree removal are listed in Section 1550.80 of the Saratoga City Code. The inspection found that the tree was in good condition. The trunk is located 14 feet away from the foundation of the home. The driveway and walkway between the tree and home show no signs of uplift, and I would expect the hardscape to show evidence of upheaval if any large roots were threatening the home foundation. Erosion is not a concern for this project as the property is fairly flat. And this is the largest tree on the property, located predominantly in the front yard. It contributes to the shade and privacy of the property and the aesthetic of the intersection. The cedar is not crowded by other trees. And continuing to remove the pollen and litter are an alternative to removing the tree. Landscaping the front yard could be designed around the existing tree. The general purpose of the article is to preserve mature trees in good condition. The tree does not affect public safety and the city does not have written objective public health standards related to tree removal due to asthma or allergies. This species is wind pollinated, and there's a mature cedar across the street. It cannot be guaranteed that the pollen load would be significantly lowered to provide significant relief. Economic enjoyment of a property is the use of the land in relation to site improvements, and any other enjoyment of the property related to the tree removal has not been defined. Criteria 10 through 13 are not applicable since the solar panels are not proposed, the tree is not within five feet of a structure, and the property does not lie within the wildland urban interface. That concludes my presentation, and I'm open to any questions.

Thank you, Christina. Any questions from the commission to the staff? Seeing none, we will open up to 10 minutes applicants

Sorry, I'm having so much trouble with this today.

Good evening. My name is Tamarai Kazemi. I'm here with my husband, John Reagan. We are here tonight to appeal the denial of a tree permit request for a Theodore Cedar in our front yard. Our appeal primarily focuses on

This does not move.

Can we stop the time?

Yeah, I stopped.

Thank you. Yep, there we go. Okay. Great, thank you. Yep, thank you. All right, our appeal, basically, so we have a deodorizer that is in our front yard. It's about... the estimation compared to the height of our tree, the height of our house is about 70 to 80 feet. It is 102 inches in diameter, and it's about 14 feet away from our home. The city has denied our request to remove this tree. Our appeal focuses primarily on the health concern of the homeowner and secondarily the close proximity of this tree to our home as well as the condition of the tree. We are requesting that we be granted permit to remove this tree so we can replace it with trees that are placed proportional to what the ISA recommendation is, as well as it being native, drought-tolerant trees that can withstand the conditions that we have with the drought and whatnot. So in terms of the health concerns, as you saw from the previous page, this tree is fairly tall, 102 inches in diameter and 14 feet away from our home. And it produces massive amount of pollen. And this pollen is yellow-green pollen. It happens during October and November. So for two months during the wintertime and sometimes in the spring, it also produces pollens. Not as much as it does in the fall. We have a tree across the street that Christina showed. That tree has not produced a single pollen in the 17 years we have been there. Most of the pollen, all of the pollen in our neighboring area comes from our tree. It covers pretty much all of our property and two or three properties on each side of our property across the street as well. The homeowner has respiratory problems. That condition has been there for 20 plus years. More recently, the respiratory issue has been clinically diagnosed over several years of trying to determine what was aggravating the conditions. Dr. Jamila Martin ran multiple tests over multiple years and finally kind of zoomed in on this particular species of the tree causing respiratory problem. that triggers asthma-like conditions. This respiratory problem is not a rash that goes away. It is a disease. It is likened to a cancer, so you manage it. It is like diabetes. You manage it. You cannot get rid of it. She has recommended that that tree be cut in order to manage the condition. City of Saratoga, Article 15-50.080, Determination on Permit, Part A, Criteria, Number 8 and Number 9, talk about public health and enjoyment. So the homeowner is obviously a member of the public and would like to enjoy their property. Ability to breathe outside of their house the months of the fall And spring is crucial. So it is important to consider the homeowner's health and ability to use their property in this request that we have. So this is an example of just one page of excessive pollen that comes off the tree. So if you're standing there and the wind kicks up, you are completely covered. in pollen. There is no way around that. And since it is right in the front yard, as you drive in, you drive out, you're, you know, wishing all of these pollen off your driveway and everywhere else. So this excessive pollen is very health-threatening. Now, that's the primary reason we would like to have this tree removed. and replaced with other trees. Secondarily, this tree is close to our property. As I mentioned before, it is very tall, very thick, and about 14 feet away from our property. It hangs over our roof, and it has lost many of its limbs over the past several years, particularly due to heavy rain, storm. Christina talks about normal trees drop limbs, yes, but not a third of one side of a tree dropping limbs during heavy rain and storm. The same tree across the street has not lost a single limb over the past 17 years we've been living in that house. Article 15-50080, again, criteria one is proximity to existing structures. It says, unless otherwise permitted by the approving authority, no structure excavation or impervious surface area of any kind shall be constructed or installed within the root zone of any protected tree without mitigating special design. If no new construction is to be built close to a tree, so a tree being close to an existing structure poses the same sort of hazard. And the converse would be true. that this tree is too close to our home by any ISA standards and recommendations. Additionally, Article 15-50.120, it talks about, I'm sorry, that was Article 120.120 that I just mentioned. So we have outlined some proximity guidelines in the next chart, chart seven, which you can review by all standards. ISA's own standards actually indicate that the tree is way too close to our home. Now, as I mentioned, you'll see in those pictures that one third of the tree on one side lost many of its limbs. And you can see it during one of the storms. It covered our entire driveway. And like I said, normal healthy trees do not drop a third of their branches or limbs during any storm across the street. the same tree doesn't produce pollen or hasn't lost any of its limbs. Again, these pictures show limbs of this tree falling. All right. John, you want to go over?

Sure. We're running out of time, so I'm not going to read these here, but we just decided to provide you with some simple rationales in plain English as to why you should remove the request or approve our request to remove and replace this tree. The real reason, though, is that my wife can't breathe when this tree is pollinating so much. and she's a member of the general public. Her welfare matters, okay? We shouldn't have to move in order to exist in our house. Next slide. Okay, so on this one here, you can read it for yourself, but here are conditions of the existing Code 1550.080 that we believe you can and should use to justify our appeal here. They're all very sound and rational arguments. We're not trying to be crazy here. We love trees. We're willing to put up a mature tree just a little bit farther away from the house that doesn't produce so much pollen that affects my wife. It's a very significant issue for our family. I would also just like to say that the picture that Christina showed you was a picture of that tree from the cul-de-sac. No limbs were missing from that picture. The picture we showed showed seven massive limbs off that tree, and that is the perspective that everybody sees when they go through the intersection. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Any questions? I do have a question. So you're saying the dropping of the tree limbs. Can you tell us within how many years it has been, how frequent? It's like on an annual basis, or?

Initially, the limbs would fall were smaller limbs, branches mostly. But in the past, I want to say six, seven years, it's been more frequent. And the final straw was this last storm that we had a couple of years ago where a whole bunch of limbs just fell. And those pictures that you saw, just shows the entire driveway was covered. And these are not small limbs. They're like pretty thick limbs. If one of them fell, I mean, We've had situations which Christina has come and I've showed her What has happened where just the limb or two just they just fall without notice? We had a situation where we had people working in our backyard as they were exiting in the afternoon a limb just dropped in front of them and they were like three or four people and If it had fallen on any of their heads, it would have been a serious injury. But in the past storm, we lost a significant number of limbs on one side of the tree.

I would also just like to say that this tree is native to the eastern Himalayas, which is about the farthest point on Earth away from Saratoga, California. We had several years of drought conditions followed by some severe storms, and it was at that point that the tree lost Seven major limbs that I couldn't pick up myself. So they were well over 200 pounds So that tree it's native to the eastern Himalayas typically grows at 5,000 to 10,000 feet elevation Saratoga is at 500 feet elevation. So this It's not drought tolerant. It's not resistant to that when the rains do come we're going to experience more of this and So.

All right, thank you for answering my question.

I have a question for the applicant. So have you actually hired a professional arborist to examine the health or the stability of the tree, just besides yourself?

Can you repeat that? Have you hired professionals?

Yeah, a professional arborist. Yes, multiple. They actually generally report that the tree has issues with the stability and also the health. Is that correct?

Well, we have been trimming the tree over the years using ISA-certified arborists who oversee the trimming of the tree. The last ISA arborist that we had, he recommended that this tree is going to continue dropping limbs. If we don't cut it now, at some point it'll die. And we've had other property, on our property, other trees, ash trees, that have diseases, which is pretty common nowadays. We didn't cut them and they fell just unexpectedly during the storm onto the street. Luckily, nobody got hurt and we had to move it and had somebody come and cut it and move it. We've had, since we moved there, we've had seven or eight very mature trees on our property. all very close to our home and dropping limbs on our roof, on our bedroom, my children's bedroom. So it hasn't been to us. That's common that these trees are dropping limbs because they are just getting old and diseased or not.

They're not appropriate for this environment for the reasons I said. And to answer your question, we have spent thousands of dollars over the years trimming this tree, trying to be good neighbors and everything. But it has reached a point where my wife's condition is not getting any better. Conditions, as you know, don't improve with age. They're not like fine wine. So her condition is getting better. And the tree has lost a third of the front of the tree. It's, in my opinion, kind of an eyesore for the neighborhood. We're simply asking for permission. And it's too close. Even the ISA standards say it's too close. Don't ask me, go ask the people you trust. We're simply asking to replace this drought intolerant tree with a native California species of your city's choosing. We're happy to do it, but we just simply request that it's a low pollinating tree and that we are able to place it a little farther away from the house. In accordance with your own regulations, actually.

And we are doing our landscape, so this is a good time to place proper-sized trees properly located on our property.

All right, thank you.

Any other questions?

Okay, thank you. Now we're open for public comments. Seeing no one in the audience, let's check online.

No comments online.

Right.

And now we have five minutes for closing remarks.

I would like to reiterate that we're not asking for a removal without replacement. We want to replace multiple trees on our property We love trees. Unfortunately, some of the trees on our property have been diseased, and this one is starting to drop limbs. I'm not sure of the condition, whether it's going to live five years, 10 years, 20 years, but it is dangerous. Besides the fact that it is a health concern, it is dangerous. The health concern of the homeowner should be considered. We do not want to move just because this tree is there. So we're asking the commission members to actually grant us the permission, you know, approve our appeal so we can plant large trees on our property that do not cause the, you know, health concerns that we have for us here.

Yeah, I'd just like to... reiterate here that we currently have four large mature trees on our property. If you go through our neighborhood, you'll see that that is amongst the most of all the homes in our neighborhood. So we're not people who are looking to cut trees down. Most of the homes have one, maybe two mature trees on their property. A lot of people have palm trees, which in my opinion sort of doesn't count, but so be it. We're simply asking to be able to take this tree down and replace it with a beautiful, it can even be a mature tree. We don't really care. But we simply ask that it be a tree that has low pollination so that my wife can better manage her disease. And then, yeah. We provided several criteria that I think you can hang your hat on. They're not unreasonable conditions. I think they're very reasonable. And I know people like to adhere to just the strict letter of the law when it comes to these policies. But this policy is lacking in the sense that it doesn't provide any condition or exception for people who have these medical issues that are impacted by this. And it's a little disappointing. I GREW UP IN SARATOGA. I SPENT PROBABLY 40 YEARS OF MY LIFE IN SARATOGA. THIS IS MY HOMETOWN. I HAVE NO DESIRE TO TAKE ALL THE TREES DOWN. WE LOVE THE TREES, ACTUALLY. WE JUST WANT THEM AT AN APPROPRIATE DISTANCE FROM OUR HOME. THAT'S JUST NOT US SAYING THAT. THAT'S THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE ISA, WHICH IS THE ACCREDITING AGENCY FOR YOUR HARVEST OVER HERE. On behalf of my wife and I, we want to thank you for your time and for hearing our petition. Thank you.

Thank you. We do have a question for you.

What mature tree were you proposing as a replacement and what size?

Anything the ISA certified.

Do you have a tree you're proposing?

We have spoken with our arborist and our arborist has provided two suggestions. One is a California pepper. It's a native California tree. It's drought tolerant, low pollen producer. He recommended one other. I don't remember. But that is something that we would be happy to discuss with the arborist.

And the size of the pepper that you put in?

He said we can put in anywhere from a little one to he can train in a large one. So whatever is appropriate. We dispute the number of 40 feet tall. I can go back tonight. and do the photogrammetry based off our photos, and I can tell you exactly how tall that tree is, but I don't think there's any way that that's a 40-foot tree, so we're willing to put in something that's bigger than 40 feet.

Thank you.

We are hoping for younger trees that can last longer. We plan to be there. We plan to pass our house down to our kids.

The conditions we'd like it to be drought-tolerant, a native California tree. This one is... It experiences these wild extremes in the weather we have in California. Years of drought followed by intense rain. And by the very own pictures, it's not able to function in that capacity. And that's because it's not native to this area. It's native to way up high in the mountains in the eastern Himalayas. It's not the right tree for this area. And then, of course, it pollinates like crazy. And that is a fact that is affecting my wife's health. It's not just her saying that. It's not me saying that. It's a pulmonologist, a highly accredited pulmonologist said that. So this is not something we can really manage. My wife has to be able to leave the house and come back. And every time we do, we bring that pollen into the garage. And it inevitably gets into the house. And it's a real problem. So we're trying to appeal to your sense of humanity here that it's not always just about reading. A criteria on a piece of paper.

I just had a, I'm sorry, I just need a question from staff as to when we do give permits like this, what is the size of the tree that you would be part of your, you know, like?

They would be required to plant one 15-gallon tree that reaches 35 feet in height and maturity on the frontage.

Okay, so it's not like they have to plant a 40-foot tree.

No, that would be impractical.

Exactly. That's where I was kind of getting confused about them. So, okay. Thank you.

Just one more quick question for the arborist. I think one of the criteria mentioned here is the health of the homeowner, right? Is that a criteria you use when you make decisions on trees?

The city does not have a criteria for the health of an individual.

Thank you.

That's not what I meant. But our position is that my wife is a member of the general public. So you can't find that.

Thank you. Thank you. So now we conclude public comments. So let's open up a discussion.

So just so that I understand it right, if we deny, if the motion has to be to deny the appeal? No. What has to be the motion so that they can get the permit to cut the tree and plant a new tree?

So if the commission feels that the staff erred in denying the permit, you would uphold the appeal and allow them to remove the tree and replace it.

I think the staff did a tremendous job because they have to follow the process and what is written guidelines that they have to do. But I think this is when it comes to us as commissioners that we have to look a little beyond the guidelines and make a judgment call, if that's what it would be called, and look at the other sides of the coin. And with that in mind, and looking at the health mainly of an applicant, I have seen their application. I think I was very new on the commission, and I may be the only one who was here back in 2019 when they had initially come. So I can see that they have been trying to live with this tree and trying to do all those things in order not to cut the tree. And I feel like we need to... I definitely love trees. We need to be able to plant a tree. And they're willing to plant even a bigger than 15 gallon is what I'm hearing. But I don't think we should put any kind of a special like that on it. And I would want to uphold the appeal and then follow process from there so that they can plant a tree that's appropriate for the front yard. That would be my standing. Any other comments?

I just did some research. This is a tree that grows in the Himalayas, so it's out of place over here. And for a tree of that size, at this point, it should be farther away from the house. So these are two judgment call items that the commission here has to make. So I'm also comfortable approving their appeal.

Paul?

I have a contrary opinion. Two things. One is I think the staff did a really good job. And I think given the process, I think it's a sound one. I also understand the applicant's position, and I'll say that personally because I too suffer from that. I have two mature deodars in my yard. They're probably bigger than yours are. I've also got something like three oaks and probably five redwoods that are well over 80 feet high. And I, too, suffer from really bad asthma and allergies during the pollen season. But I don't feel that it's appropriate to set a precedent that's going to allow somebody like me to take down that number of trees. And that's what we're doing. I think that the tree regulations are in place to protect the community and to protect neighbors. And I don't think that we should allow individuals, the applicant or other people like myself, to take down large trees that are deemed by the city arborists to be in good health. So I feel badly for you, specifically. But I can... agree with the city arborist to deny the appeal. And again, that's a personal opinion. That's my logic for it.

Any other comments? So I can put on my two cents here. Yeah, we understand the suffering from health reasons. I think one of the problem here is that our ordinance is not very specific. about the health impact. And I know we are going to have to review the tree ordinance. It's on our work plan. I feel like we can go and do a better job there and to really think about, hey, how can we really take care of our residents from health reasons? But the second part is safety. So I'm thinking about, maybe I can ask you, Paul, have your cedar tree dropped its limbs constantly?

Routinely. Cedar, the Deodar cedars are, and the other trees, they have what are called sudden, I can't, you'll have to ask the arborist, but they just drop limbs for no reason. And that's just the nature of trees, and it's specifically Deodar cedars. So, and it's, it certainly is an issue, but as a homeowner who bought that property, I knew what those issues were. It's a selection criteria for buying the property. When you walk into a piece of property and you see there's a big tree close to the house, you see this and that, those are the choices you make. It's like schools and stuff.

May I also ask, how far are those trees from your home?

They vary. They vary from like 10 feet to, I don't know, probably 40 feet.

So now come to my recommendation is that if a tree, they keep dropping, I mean, we all love trees. I mean, me, I'm a naturalist for open space. I love open space. I love nature. I completely love trees. However, if a tree is causing safety issues, and given that our climate change, and given that things have changed in the last 10 years, big fires in neighborhood, especially lots of pine trees. I mean, these are conifers. Conifers are not native to our region. And those are highly flammable and not drought-free, resist. And so again, going back to the tree ordinance that we're going to work on, I think we need to think, take that into consideration about the climate change and about the safety impact to our neighborhoods due to those trees. And if you think about these trees are planted 50 years ago, maybe 40 years ago, very different from now. I mean, now it's different. And the neighbors, when they bought a house, who know? If you ask me, I do not know. These trees will drop limbs like this crazy, and having the health and safety hazard. And so I feel like we need to change. We need to think about, as a commissioner, how do we adjust? Our ordinance was created years ago, maybe 50, 60 years ago maybe, but now things have changed. So that's my two cents.

I just wanted to add that we already have made changes where we say we should not be planting trees so close to homes. So why do we penalize homeowners who bought properties so close to homes that they're getting the impact that new properties are not? And that's another reason that I would want to support the appeal so that they can remove the tree.

Any other comments?

Yeah, I have comments. So we're all living in Saratoga. So actually, in my case, I have pine trees all around my house. And every year, it drops a lot in my swimming pool, everywhere. So it is a tough job to maintain every year. So it's not like every time it comes to a big wind or something, you have to put extra effort to clean them up. But I think two things are very important. Number one is the stability of the tree. So if the tree is not balanced, somehow it's very unstable. It could have a tendency to come down to hurt the house or hurt people. That should be immediately addressed, either balance the tree or cut the tree. The other one is the health of the tree. Because I think the arborist knows everything. They know how to examine the health and the stability of the tree. The health of the tree depends on how long the tree can live and how fast it will fall down. So I think I trust our arborist. I mean, Christina already did a lot of exams for those trees. So we should trust her for that part, right? But my heart goes to the applicants because the pollen issue is everywhere in Saratoga. Lots of trees draw pollens and people are really not comfortable in that kind of season. But I think those two I mentioned earlier, number one, number two is more important.

So what do you think about this tree? Do you feel like it's balanced or it's healthy?

THAT'S WHY I ASKED EARLIER TO THE APPLICANT IF THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD PROFESSIONAL ARBITRIST, THEY ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN, TO EXAMINE THE TREE AND THEY GENERALLY REPORT TO BASICALLY SAYING THE TREE IS NOT HEALTHY OR THE TREE IS NOT STABLE. IT POSTS KIND OF A DANGER TO THE PEOPLE LIVING THERE. I THINK WE SHOULD PUT IMMEDIATE ATTENTION TO THAT. THAT'S MY TAKE ON THAT.

BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE WANT TO TRUST OUR

I think we should.

Cindy.

Through the chair, I just want to read the criteria for removal, just for the record. So this is, there's a number of criteria, but the one I think that you may be referencing says the condition of the tree with respect to disease, imminent danger of falling, proximity to existing or proposed structures, and interference with utility services, and whether the tree is a dead tree or a fallen tree is one of the criteria. And also, you do have the arborist in the audience if you have any further questions.

I think I would like to make, unless anybody else has any other comments, but I would like to make the motion to... accept the appeal so that they can proceed with a healthier life.

Based on the health or safety? Based on health and safety.

So the finding you're citing is that you can't make?

I'm sorry?

I think Paul is saying, you know, trying to make some of the findings to build that into the motion. And it sounds like you're referencing maybe one and eight for danger proximity to structures and eight for, you know, any other relevant information relevant to public health safety and general welfare. And number nine for other enjoyment of the property when there's no feasible alternative. So, I mean, referencing those would be helpful.

Okay. One, eight, and nine. Any one second?

All right. Any other motion?

No. Let's vote. Okay. I'm going to call for their vote. Commissioner Couser? Yes. Commissioner Sridharan? Yes. Commissioner Brownlee? Yes. Commissioner Zhang? No. Vice Chair Grimeron?

No.

Chair Lee? Yes. Motion passes. So the appeal was approved.

All right. Now let's move on to item three, other businesses. Okay.

I might need your help. Of course. So I want to share. Can you share what page? Okay, can you let me into the video? Okay.

All right? Ready? Ready?

While he's pulling that up, so the Planning Commission has a work plan item. It's called Communications and Transparency. I don't have a formal staff report, so I'm just going to read what it says here. To enhance public transparency and Planning Commission awareness of land use projects proposed in the City of Saratoga, City staff will provide an update to the Commission during the Director's report at the end of each regular scheduled Planning Commission meeting. The update will include a point-in-time summary of the current status of builders remedy projects and other development projects that may be of interest to the Commission The update will also occasionally include an overview of information provided on the city website Planning Commission recommendations on communication strategies to enhance public awareness will be shared with the city's communication engagement team So we're going to show you a couple of things on the website that may be of interest And then I want to open up to discussion for any recommendations that you have on ways that we can increase communication and transparency and we'll share that with our communications team to see what we can do and So I'm actually going to start with the arborist intern, River Cleveland. So we're really excited to have River here. She's interning with us for the summer, and she's been doing a really amazing job. Thank you, River. Yes, hello. It is so nice to meet you all.

I am currently responsible for updating the Saratoga Heritage Trees webpage. Heritage trees are designated by the city of Saratoga. This is to honor trees of exceptional size, age, species, or historical or cultural significance. Before I begin, I want to thank the city for the opportunity to support the growth of such beautiful historical city through the role of Heritage Trees page on Saratoga website to honor and preserve Saratoga's history. Thank you as well to the Planning Commission for your time and for allowing me the opportunity to share this work, which has been such a joy to produce. I am a fourth-year student at the University of Seattle, and I am currently studying environmental studies with a specialization in ecological systems and a minor in biology. I am also pursuing a GIS certification, which has been useful when procuring this webpage. After my internship concludes next week, I am also continuing my work in environmental studies through my role at the Issaquah Salmon Hatchery. Upon the completion of this project, I wanted to thank my supervisor, Christina Fesco, the city arborist, as well as Corrine Michener, the public affairs and community engagement officer who helped me integrate the story map into the webpage. I also wanted to thank Saheepi and Cindy for reviewing the webpage and giving it the thumbs up. The goal of this story map is to make heritage tree information more accessible, educate the public on the designation process, and build a greater appreciation for Saratoga's heritage trees. The main focus of this story map is the Tree Tour, which guides the user through the city's 44 inventoried heritage trees. However, the webpage also includes contact information, the application, definitions, qualifications for designation, and frequently asked questions. You can find this web page through the Saratoga City website. This would be within the community development web page where you can navigate to trees and then heritage trees. And there is also this nifty QR code if you want to have mobile access. I highly recommend you all scan this so you can follow along. But I will also do a short demo right now through this link. This is the scrollable format. The real goal here is to have citizens enjoy what they're taking in. We want the heritage tree page to be something that both allows users to find information on heritage trees, figure out how they could get designation themselves, but also enjoy our historic value that we have within these trees and the stories that come along with it. When you apply for designation, you have to apply with a story. Why is your tree important? Why does it need heritage status? And that is something that is represented within the story map. Here you can see there is a map of all the Saratoga heritage trees. This is divided between public address trees and private address trees so that one may be able to find a specific heritage tree that they are thinking of or perhaps have on their property. As you can see, clicking on the top, you can view all the different public or private locations in a list, which provides links to those specific locations. Or you can scroll to enjoy the tree tour. Each excerpt has the type of tree, location, a blurb, and a photo. If you click on the tree, you can also learn a bit about that tree, including size, DBH, canopy spread. Definitions provides an overview, as well as definitions of heritage trees and protected trees. All heritage trees are protected trees. Below is the process for designation. Finally, we reach the FAQ where a user may be able to select their preferred questions. These are commonly asked questions and receive answers that may help them within their designation process in figuring things out. That concludes the tree tour. This heritage tree web page went live yesterday, and I encourage you all to go and enjoy it if you want to learn more about heritage trees. Thank you all for your time. I appreciate it.

Well, thank you. Thank you for the great work.

Did I read correctly that there are two dead heritage trees?

I'm sorry, what?

It said 44 heritage trees, 42 are still living. So two of them, we have two heritage trees that are not living. Is that correct?

The graduation oak at... Which elementary school is that? Forest Hills Elementary School? Am I wrong? Want to get a call? Had Ganoderma, which is a root rot, and it was removed by the school district. They're exempt from our permitting process because the school properties are under the division of the state architect. The other tree is an Italian stone pine at Blaney Plaza, which failed in 2015.

Thank you.

Are we going to have an open discussion on this?

Yes, so what's next? Yeah, so if you have comments on what you've seen, I told River, I said, oh, you're really setting the bar high for our department now. All right.

I would just say I really love the scrolly telling aspect of it. And the interactivity, giving people opportunity to click on different sections is fantastic. And I'm excited to share it with my daughters so they can learn more about the city and its trees in a fun website format. So it looks awesome.

I just say really nice work. Thank you very much. A couple quick things. I didn't see Hakone having heritage trees, so I guess from your expression I missed it. Okay, thank you. Glad to see that's the case. The second item for your consideration in the FAQ is put in owner benefits and risks. Because if I was going to do it, I'd want to know what's the benefits to me as an owner, and then what's the risk that I'm taking on. much like the previous applicant had. If you've got it there and if it's heritage, you've, you know, there's both sides. But that's just a thought for you. But very nice work. Thank you so much.

Yeah, I just want to say very nice work. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Great. All right. Brian, are you able to promote me to a panelist? Try not, yes, and I'll try not to mess up the audio here.

Okay.

So let me share my screen. Okay. Okay. I think you all can see that. So we have our City of Saratoga website. You can go from the main page. You can go to the planning division or the building division. We'll click on planning. And it takes you to our planning page. And we have created these buttons, these quick link buttons at the top. So if you wanted to apply for an application, you would click on this button and it would take you through all of the different types of applications that we have. A whole web page on trees and tree protection. We have frequently asked questions, which I'll click on in just a moment. There's a design review tab that walks people through when they have a project that requires an administrative approval or a planning commission approval, what we're looking for. I think you're all familiar with the development projects where we have GIS maps for development projects that have come into the city, our builder's remedy projects. And then we have a feedback survey for our customers. So if you go to the frequently asked questions page, We have some general questions. How do I get answers to my questions? What are common hurdles faced during the planning permit process? So things like you may have geotechnical constraints, or you may be in a high fire zone, or you may have trees that you need to protect and get an arborist report for. There's questions about accessory dwelling units, which are very popular in the city of Saratoga. general questions about residential development these are frequently asked questions so that anyone can go on the website and see things that we're constantly talking to applicants about and then there's a more questions on trees so that is on our planning page so let me go to the design review page And we're trying to make the website less text heavy, so we're using tables and colors, and we're always open to suggestions. But let me just go to the design review page. So we try to walk applicants and residents through kind of a step-by-step process of what they need to know to apply for a permit, what requires a design review application and what doesn't meet the threshold and can go straight to a building permit. So minor additions can go straight to a building permit. You want to know what the zoning is on your property. We talked about those property constraints, so protected trees, dead-end roads that require fire prevention upgrades. Are you in a WUI or are you in a fire hazard zone? Do you have geotechnical constraints? And then we walk them through the application process, what type of applications do you need, what are the reviews that you need. Again, the Arborist Review, Santa Clara County Fire Department. We have a number of stormwater requirements that applicants and residents need to meet. And then this walks our residents through the path. So do you qualify for ministerial approval because you meet all of the objective standards? Do you need a discretionary staff level approval or do you need planning commission approval? And then right now, applicants can submit their applications to the planning division. So that concludes my recommendation on just kind of navigating the website. And I want to open it up to discussion on ways that we can improve communication. Thank you.

Paul?

Yeah, I wonder if you've tried it. So, if I throw into Claude or ChatGPT, tell them that I live, my street address in Saratoga, rely heavily on this website, but also make sure that I'm compliant with California County and other codes. And I want to put an ADU in my backyard and I want it as close to the back as I can get it. fill out the Saratoga planning application form that I'm going to need to do this. Are they successful in doing it?

So I would be, if you're using AI, it might give you some good general background, but I would always talk to a planner just because.

No, no, but I'm just curious how... What I'm curious about for the transparency aspect of the website, are the engines able to access everything that they need to fill out that application for me? Because I've been trying that experiment with a number of different entities.

That's a great question. I haven't had a resident talk to us about having AI fill out their forms for them.

Yeah, as a resident, if we're after transparency and openness, it's incredibly easy to just tell the AI engine in plain English what I want. And it's amazing what it's been able to do for me in a number of different applications. I haven't tried it with this one yet. But I'd encourage you to try that, because I think in the future, That's what the residents are going to look for. And then the other comment that I think I've made to you before is that I really would like to have removed the need for a login on any part of the thing. To require me to log in with a username and a password really inhibits the openness and transparency and it inhibits my use of AI to find information. And the reason why I have energy around this is I want to work with a bunch of the high school kids to do, basically, science fair projects on Saratoga. And to do that, they're going to need to use AI engines to develop reports and look at statistics in the city. We can get a whole bunch of data back for free, basically, and answering some really good social questions in our city if they have access to the website. Right now, they can't get to the data. The engines can't get to the data. And I don't know and haven't seen, because I've gone to some of the Planning Commission statewide meetings, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition against us opening that up. It's just something we've done, you know, which made sense at the time, because we wanted to know who was getting in. But that would be my other recommendation to you, so we can get some of these other projects done at a good price point and with some really interesting younger viewpoints.

I have a question, a follow-up to Paul. Like, when we have a username, and I think it's even in other cities, it's not just us, even for, like, to check a permit and all is what you get to have a username, correct? Like, all the stuff that Cindy just showed us, we don't need a username for that.

Yes. I do. If I want to go look at my property, I need a thing. So for the previous thing, I want to put an ADU in my backyard. Can I do it? That AI engine needs to be able to get to that information on my property, and we don't want to block. It's sort of old fashioned to have had the username and the password. There's no reason that I know that we need to have that requirement.

But I think maybe Cindy has to check with legal to see if that's possible.

We did ask IT about that, and they said that it was a security risk. So at this point in time, they're not allowing that.

OK, I'll come talk to you differently about the security risk, because there's a different opinion on that.

There are a couple of things about AI. Sorry. I have a comment on the AI thing, and I have a question. On the AI, I tried something a few months ago, and as of three or four months ago, most of the agents could not read a map. So if you give a floor plan and ask them, where can I put an ADU, they won't be able to answer that for you. But they could take data that says, hey, you have a, your lot is of some size, and your house is of some size, and therefore you can put, they can tell you how many square foot your ADU can be, but they can't, give you a here's where you should put it yet.

They're going to read maps today because I've been having them draw plans for a condo in San Diego.

Yeah. And there's still some companies providing solutions for this. I got shared one. I'll share it with the group as well.

Cities are very interested in using AI to help do a preliminary review of applications, but the industry just isn't there yet. But they're constantly working on it, and Brian knows we meet with them so that they can demo their product, and again, it's not quite there yet.

My assertion is that the people that we saw at the Planning Commissioners Academy and the ones that I hear about being discussed in the monthly calls for the California State Planning Commissioners, Those are all for-profit companies, and it's like buying a legacy system in my mind. I think as a city, it would be much cheaper and much more transparent and open for our citizens if they can use publicly available free AI as opposed to the city paying for specific ABI solutions. That tends to lock you into...

If I may, so we met with an AI company about a month and a half ago or so, and the sales pitch was, oh, we could do this in Florida, we could do this in Virginia, and we're like, what can you do in California? Because everything's different here, right? And I said, why don't you figure that out and come back to us? And so I would encourage the Planning Commission, if you have time, which I know you're all very busy, But apparently the city of Corona, California, has implemented this AI software. And so I would love to see if you could play around with it to see how it works. So, yeah.

Yeah, Corona's having really good luck. They're using a commercial provider. And the issue that they're, of course, running into is that the... they're getting a special deal to be sort of the lead one. It's not clear what the pricing is going to be over a long time or the subscription costs are going to be a long time. And that's why my own prejudice is that we stick to an open architecture as opposed to just unless one is adopted by the state and it's mandated or something. But that's a perspective. And that's all it is.

It's good to hear that you actually made your way to the Corona website. Oh, OK. I must have used the idea to read my mind or something.

No, Corona's been presenting monthly on the work that they've been doing. And they really do a nice job. And they really are breaking ground for the state. And it's interesting to learn what's working for them and what's not.

Thank you for that.

So are there any other recommendations for how we can improve communication on our website or else?

We have an example last time, maybe two meetings ago, with the Aquatic Center project that came in as a big surprise. for our residents, surrounding residents. It's a pretty, very impactful project. And even for us, for the commissioners, you come in, we only know about it like a week or two ago. So I'm just wondering, that is an example for us to think about how can we, at least from commissioner's perspective and also the residents' perspective, to have the communication earlier about it. How can we make that happen?

Yes, we have a weekly planning staff meeting, and so I can add an agenda on the item of what are some projects that are coming that we think might be controversial, and then we can... see what we can provide, you know, the public and the commission in terms of what, you know, what's being proposed and how it would be, how it's being reviewed and what the process, the decision-making process will be.

Can you explain to us what, so like the aquatic center, how soon do you hear about stuff? We hear about something one week before we have to vote on it. When do you hear about it?

so an application will come in the planner reviews it in the order submitted the planner has up to 30 days to review the plans the plans get routed to the various departments like the Santa Clara County Fire Department the Public Works Department we have a consulting engineer And all of those different reviewing parties provide comments on the plan. So you submitted something. We have a checklist that says what you're supposed to submit. You forgot to submit this. We need it. And then at some point, we have all of the documentation that we need to deem it complete for processing. And at that point, the planner's looking at it. Is it consistent with the code? And then there's oftentimes a conversation with the applicant, especially if we're hearing from neighbors. So before it ever comes to you, the planner is talking to the applicant and talking to the neighbors and trying to get the project to a level where we can approve it. And so there's a lot of back and forth on that. So oftentimes when you see a project, it wasn't submitted that way initially. We worked to get it that way. So that time period can take, if they hire an architect that submits something that's ready to approve, it can take 30 days or it can take six months. So that's kind of when we know.

Would the staff have the capability, when you first get the application, would you, do you have the insight or would you like to run an experiment where you give the planning commission sort of a heads up, just on sort of like, my personal experience is this project's going to be, going to be interesting. Not that it will be or anything like that, but just say, here's all the projects that you might want to start putting in the back of your head. And then if they make it to the next step, well, they've made it to this one, you really might want to be thinking. I mean, is there any way that you can give us that kind of insight so that we can start thinking about it or go buy the property or whatever?

Yeah, so most projects won't come to the Planning Commission. You're seeing a lot more projects right now because they're coming in under Builder's Remedy or some other state law. But yeah, so when we know a project is going to come before the Planning Commission, we can let you know we've received this application. If you want, you know, if residents want more information, they can come down to the planning department and look at the plans. So, yes, we can do that.

I don't know if anybody else would be interested in that, though. I mean, I don't want to overburden us or anything like that. So, I mean, it's just sort of like, it's sort of one point of view, but I don't know, maybe that's not something that other people would want.

Yeah, actually, I'm curious about the format. How would this communication happen? Would that be sending us an email? or in our meeting, let us know. Because these projects probably will take a year. Also, these are large projects.

Yeah, and that's a good point. Kind of back to what I was saying before. When a project comes in, that may not be the project that you actually see. And so there's a lot going on in the background to get it to the point where we're taking it to you and we feel that it's, you know, our recommendation is...

Yeah, I think we probably want to agree. We also don't want to be bombarded by all the projects, right? What is the criteria that we say, hey, we want to know ahead of time instead of a week before?

I think usually when there is a bigger project or something that may raise any controversy, I think staff usually does bring it ahead of time, like not just a week before. Like we've had study sessions when there was the mountain winery thing. We've had study sessions when the house winery project was coming. Majority of the time, projects that size, I think we have enough notice. Yeah. I know you're talking about the medium, like the six townhomes. But if they're confirming and they're meeting all the criteria, sometimes it's difficult for the staff to think, oh, this is going to be a controversial project because it meets everything. And if I understand the website that Cindy was just showing us, There are things that if we want to be really in tune with what's happening, I guess we have to on a regular basis visit it. Or is it having an automatic, like anything updated sends an email if somebody signed up with it? I don't know if that capability exists because I know there are other websites around where if the website's updated, whoever is signed up, they receive a notification so they can go check what the update was, you know?

So we do have a notify me. So like for Builders Remedy, we have a notify me sign up list. And so whenever we update the website with additional information, we send out the notify me. So for example, when the two projects that came before the Planning Commission in July got appealed to the city council, we sent out a notify me signup. to the builder's remedy list to say, we received appeals on these projects, and this is when they're tentatively scheduled for the city council.

But those are email lists, right? There's not some, or is it just some sign-up list that people get on by, on the builder's remedy site? How do people get on that?

So, let me show you here, hold on. Let me share my screen again. So if we go back to the main page, you see this button called Connect. So if you click on that, Here's that notify me. So you click on this, and there's certain categories that we've already identified. And our communications team can add more lists to this. So here's the builder's remedies. And you can look at previous messages. Some of this is a little outdated. So like palm villas. The general plan update, so we'll, you know, some of this needs to be cleaned up. But if there are topics that we want to add to this list, then absolutely.

Going back to your other screen where you had shown us, like, the GIS map, that cannot be added here. If anything's added to that, that cannot be a notify me.

So that's updated externally. So we send it to the GIS company. We send them a spreadsheet, and then they do that. And I don't know exactly when they update that. And it's updated every two weeks. And it's pretty consistently updated on Mondays.

And that's where we have all the projects, which would be like the townhome project or somebody just remodeling their house or like the tree permit. All that stuff is on that GIS map, right?

Yes. So we have the GIS for the tree permits. We have the GIS for the design review applications.

So I think what Paul's trying to see is that the design review applications is how do we get notification when somebody puts in a design review application?

Yeah, the other thing that can be done really easily if that GIS spreadsheet is publicly available, then I can just ask ChatGPT. whatever, you know, show me all the ADUs that just popped up on it. I mean, whatever I'm personally interested in, I can just ask it in plain English, you know, send me the data. So that might be another solution as opposed to...

So chat cannot read the GIS map right now?

I haven't tried it. Okay. But since there's no... I don't see any reason not to make the spreadsheet public because the spreadsheet would actually be easier for it to read. I mean, they're just putting it in on the map coordinates.

It's basically just a list versus map. Yeah.

Yeah. So just make the suggestion, make that publicly available. The other one that I would be interested, I don't know if it's there, but I would be interested in knowing how many, when a planning commission makes a decision, I'd like to know how many of those were appealed to the city council, and are they being appealed? I'd like to be able to see that. I don't know if that was one of the things I can have notified. I don't think it is. But that's one I would like to add to the list, because I'd like to be notified if the city council is going to, has on the agenda a review of a planning commission.

I think we do get, I think staff just makes that effort to let us know if something we, at least I recall that happening.

We haven't had any appeals in the time I've been on the board then?

Well, we had just two ones from last time.

But I never got notification that those went before the city council.

Oh, maybe because I'm on the builder's remedy list.

Oh. Yes, I agree. Yes, we should be communicating with you if your decision is appealed. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. That's great.

Yeah, because I haven't heard that either of those have gone to the city council. Yeah, I was not notified.

Yeah, I think I just know because I'm on one of the lists where it showed up. You know, I don't really pay attention to how it showed up, but I saw it.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I would want to have known that so I could have attended.

Yes.

Thank you.

So this will be staff. You will just email us, say.

Yes, we can email you. Yes. Okay.

That's better, yeah. I think it's better to just email if one of our decisions is appealed.

Yes. All right. So this is about transparency. I think the same project also demonstrated problem on the communications between the project owner, the... the builders and the neighbors and the commissioners. Because I feel like lots of times, if we allow people to allow some dialogues or some communications between the communities, I feel that actually helps. It's positive. It helps the project to go actually more smoothly. I feel like lots of times, there's lots of emotions. And also, a lot of time, it's about knowledge. of the state laws, right? Who would think about these laws? I mean, everybody having their life. I mean, they're busy. But now when project comes in, lots of people don't understand and say, hey, why do you approve it? I mean, it starts pointing fingers and getting angry, but it's because people don't have that knowledge about what the law is requiring. So having those communications up front, I feel like it's actually will help the project to get through.

Well, we used to have a site visit. Actually, that was very helpful. But now, unfortunately, we don't have it.

But now, exactly, it's taken away.

So that time, you can actually firsthand, you can talk to the designer, owner, and look at the physical property.

Yeah.

But now we don't have that anymore.

Exactly. So I feel like this is something that we can think about some mitigations. some ways that it will help. to encourage the dialogue, communication, education about the laws, particularly with all the new state laws.

So the city attorney's office is going to be doing two trainings for the planning commission at the planning commission meeting, so it'll be recorded. The first training will be on just a refresher on roles and responsibilities of the planning commission. We're also going to talk about findings, which we talked about a lot tonight. and conditions of approval and then the second training will be on the state laws primarily housing state laws and so we're scheduling those we did query the planning commission on your availability so we're going to schedule that with the city attorney's office are we paying for their time to do that yes and why did you choose that over using the california cities

information it was city council direction to do the training so do you know why they made the choice to okay thank you they can't be that interested in saving money

Yeah, and this is to train the commissioners. I mean, it's for us, but I'm also thinking, how can we make our residents be more aware about the state laws and also incoming projects? So that's a communication, right?

Yeah, but I think we do send so many things out. If you look at it, like you get onto those lists, you hear about things, you get the city newsletter, you get now that I think planning has started a quarterly newsletter, you know, and the website. I think what happens from people don't don't pay attention until it's in their face. And then they say they didn't get the communication. I have been on the commission for, this is my eighth year getting almost done. And every project, that's the same complaint, different people. It's just human nature. If we are interested in something, we'll go out and find it. Now we have chat to even help with this. AI is helping. But no matter how much, and I think we have done great. You have increased communication. You've offered so many ways to do it that I don't know if there's anything more we can do except go to everybody's house and say, have you read this? How much more do you think you can add? Do you have other thoughts?

No, I feel like we have been removing a lot of communications because of the the housing elements. So we're trying to remove the barriers, right? Because before we put, send out notice and then we go there, visit the houses, invite neighbors to come. That has all removed. Correct. That's what I mean.

Yeah. But at the same time, I think if somebody is doing a remodel, I think their neighbors still know because they'll see stuff happening and they could go the next step and ask the neighbor what's going on, or they could go to the city and say, have they pulled permits or are they working on it? Or go to the website where it is in the design review section. I think, am I right, Cindy, that you have the addresses of the projects that are in design review? Yeah. That's correct. So there are places that are there. Yes, even with those, if you recall, when the postcards went out, there were people who said, we never got the postcards. And then there were bigger projects where we discussed that it needs to be a citywide postcard and not just the 500 feet as it used to be. So we've evolved from a lot of that. I'm not exactly sure.

I think going back to the example of the aquatic center. Right. The neighbor, I mean, so many homes and maybe hundreds of people that no one is aware. I mean, that is the example of very pretty extreme.

Well, I think that the only difference would have been because you still have to do a notification, right? How do the people get to know about it?

So we do a 500-foot radius notification at least 10 days before the hearing. That's what the city code requires.

So they did do the notification. So 10 days. Right, before it comes to planning. And usually larger projects, sometimes the developer will have a bigger meeting and call everybody. But when there's six, was it six townhomes? No, 16.

Condos? I don't remember. But just kind of going back to my earlier point, so a project comes in, it's not going to be necessarily the project that comes before the Planning Commission. And so when we get ready to notice it, it's at that point where the staff is confident in making a recommendation to the Planning Commission because we've worked through all of the consistency issues. So, you know... Yes, the resident can look at these preliminary plans before they're at a point where staff is ready to take it to the commission, but the project probably is going to change.

Yeah, I think to your point, One of the things that I guess I would like to see improved is when something comes up before us and the applicant gives a position and you hear some public comment, and some of the public comments are, that's a really good idea. That's a really good win-win, a compromise for it. it's really difficult in a planning commission meeting one for us to even discuss it i know i really struggle with how to do it properly so to speak and then i and back to not being able to you know you formally this person's already used up their time and stuff like that i i would really like a process where where when really good better solutions come forward there was a way to procedurally get that to happen. And to your point and to some of the other points, having the site visits help that a little bit because usually the neighbors were there and it was more, you know, there's still time to have a discussion because we weren't in a meeting so you could actually discuss it. Nothing was binding, you know. But I don't know if there's, I haven't heard of a good way to get that process to happen because it really bothers me when we go ahead and do stuff when there was a better solution available and we didn't take advantage of it.

But the site, when we, I think we are one of, I don't know if there's any other city around us that did site visits.

I don't know that the site visits the answer either. I'm just saying, I just would really like to develop, back to being open, transparent, I'd really like to develop a process for Saratoga that allows that kind of creative synergistic thought to happen so that the Things are improved. And I don't know, and I haven't got a great answer for you.

Because the site visit also happened the day before. It wasn't like it was months before. It was also after the notification. It was the day before our meeting. To get better answers, you also don't want to be a commission which is designing on the dais. So we have, yes, lots of great ideas, but Sometimes they get appealed, like we approved. I don't know if you remember, there was a project that came to us. I think it was division off of Saratoga Avenue. And we approved the plan, but the people who had shown up appealed it to the city council because they felt like there was a better way to do it, and the city did not, the planning didn't make that recommendation. And I think the city council still went with the original, upheld our approval. So yes, there are ways to do it. But there's only so many hours in the day and so many people who would be interested in what they want to come and pursue. And usually, if people are happy, they don't come and tell you that.

So maybe I have one idea. When we send out the notification like 15 days, is that 15 days before the review, do we have like a guidelines for the neighbors? I mean, they could have MAYBE THROUGH THE CITY STAFF TO CONTACT OR TO HAVE SOME DIALOGUE, HAVE A MEETING WITH THE DEVELOPERS.

SO GOING BACK TO THE KIND OF INTERNAL PROCESS, WHEN WE DO ENCOURAGE APPLICANTS TO TALK TO THEIR NEIGHBORS. And so, you know, sometimes the project will change based on those conversations. And sometimes the property owner is, no, here's what the code says, and I'm designing it to the code, and I'm moving forward.

Yeah, I think that's understandable. But at least we, from communication perspective, we encourage our residents and the developers to have some dialogue and communication. I think that's better than come at the point that we need to make a decision and they'll all come here and tell us their opinions.

I think that's happening. That's what Cindy just said.

Yeah, that last thing just gave me an idea, though. When the notice went out that the person has to send to the neighbors and say, you know, I'm doing this, it says, It's something funny about the, oh, when the neighbor signs it, the neighbor signs it, it's a really funny wording. It doesn't quite say it, but the implication there is, especially the person standing in front of you, is that by signing it, it's not the notice that I received. It's the fact that I object to it. And there's The way the form's set up, if they have an issue, there's no easy private way for them to let them know. The planning department, right then, I've got a problem. I'd have to go look at the form. But I know I've seen several myself, and there's no way for me to let the Planning Commission know as a neighbor, there's something about this project I don't like.

Is that form still being used, the one he's referring to? Is that still required?

So, yes, the neighbor notification form is still being submitted.

Even with a just design review?

Yes.

Okay. I'd like to ask that we take a look at that, or I'd be happy to look at it and show you what. It's really, like I say, there's something about that that cuts off dialogue and openness.

Yeah, we can certainly encourage those conversations, you know, but sometimes the neighbors don't care what the code says and don't like what the project is. And so that, you know, it's a little, puts you in a bit of a bind.

Yeah, but they should be able to tell the planner, you know, I don't like this project, it's pink, you know, or whatever. Well, the planner could just You know, ignore it. But, I mean, at least the person can get back to openness and transparency. The person can at least have an easy way to get that into the system. So we'll take another look at the form.

Yeah, let's do that. Okay. Any other? I think we're good. All right. Thank you. Thank you for the time and patience. Yeah. Good discussion. Thank you all. I think the meeting is adjourned.

Oh, sorry.

I'll give you my 30-second elevator speech here.

Thank you for the Planning Commission for your dedication, as always. You always have something very unique that comes to you. The Masana State, you may have heard from Cindy that that project was appealed to the City Council, and that will go next week. to the city council meeting. So staff has been working hard on the staff report for that. That will be sent out probably tomorrow. And let's see here. Cindy, thanks for all your leadership and your staff. They did a great job tonight. I think that it's definitely important for us to have the training. The attorneys, they do a great job. They have a land use background. But to your point, Vice Chair Grimrod, there are a lot of other resources that we'll look at in the future as well. But I do know that this was a request to have the attorneys do some training. And that's good. It would be good for us too as staff. And I think that's all I have. Thank you for everything.

Thank you, Brian. Actually, we do have another item, commission items.

Just a question. So we do have a meeting in September. Usually in one summer we get no meeting, but I guess this summer wasn't that case.

Well, you have November off because the regular scheduled meeting is Veterans Day. Oh, okay. And then we have Thanksgiving. So there will be no meetings in November, but I think we may have two meetings in October and potentially two meetings in September for the training.

Thank you. So the regular time for our September meeting. Yes.

Yeah, I'd like to make a formal request to put on the next month's agenda the objective fire standards. They're going before the Saratoga District Fire Department.

I got that wrong.

Anyhow, they're going before Saratoga's Fire Department for review and upgrades and approval. They're meeting. I think it's on the 18th. It's in a week or so ago. And then that will come back. And so we get that. And I recognize that the staff can't participate in this process for the city council, but we'll be getting it back. So I want it on the agenda so the planning commission can review it and go over it.

Yeah, question for staff. I mean, is this item... IF IT'S NOT ON OUR WORK PLAN, CAN WE PUT IT ON THE AGENDA?

NEW SPEAKER I THINK WE CAN PUT ANYTHING THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION DEEMS APPROPRIATE ON THE WORK PLAN.

NEW SPEAKER SO THAT'S UNANIMOUS? NEW SPEAKER YES. NEW SPEAKER AND SO VICE CHAIR, JUST SO I UNDERSTAND, HOW WILL THE INFORMATION BE INCLUDED I just want to make sure we understand how we'll be getting the information to put on the... Well, I'll need some guidance here.

Since the city council didn't want you to spend any time on anything extra kind of thing, I want to be respectful of that. I also want to make it easy on you. So we have the objective fire standards. We'll be getting... I'll have something back to report from what happened at the thing. So I just wanted on the agenda to share that. Can I give you the standards to, can I give you any materials that come back for you to distribute to us as part of the agenda?

We should include this in the agenda. Yeah, it has to be an agenda item. So the public can see that. You'd probably want to send that to staff before we start putting the agenda together, just so we understand how that's going to be fit. in the schedule in terms of the agenda schedule that night, whatever is on the agenda.

You just tell me how to do it that you think honors the city. I WANT TO HONOR WHAT THE CITY COUNCIL SAID.

I THOUGHT THE CITY COUNCIL DIDN'T WANT THE STAFF TO DO THE WORK TO GET THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'LL HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THEM GIVING YOU, LIKE, PUTTING IT ON THE AGENDA AND GETTING IT READY FOR THE MEETING. THAT WOULD BE GREAT WITH ME. MY GUESS.

I THINK WHAT WE'LL DO, CINDY, WE'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT IF WE NEED TO ADD, LIKE, MAYBE IT WOULD BE UNDER A COMMISSIONER'S REPORT.

Oh, under the commission items?

Yeah, we might have to put it on that. But let's, we'll talk internally.

But if it's the fire department, maybe you have somebody from there come and do the presentation?

Yeah, I'm going to, after their meeting, I'll have a lot more information. It may be something as much as, gee, they decided to take it under review and there's not, you know, and it may be they reviewed it, approved it, and recommend that we move forward. I mean, who knows? Who knows? So once I have that information and have a chat with them, I'll give you guys a call and you can help me.

Okay, now we're adjourned. Thank you.