Borough Council - Regular Meeting

That's the United States. No, no, no. The only thing is But don't worry about know. Yeah. Yeah. No. All right.

I am going to miss you. I never know what happens when it's December 17th. We have one of our right now. My wife's been a little bit close to people.

It's It is. Good evening. I'd like to call the November 24th, 2025 Burough Council meeting to order. Will the clerk please read the open public meeting statement? Adequate notice has been provided as required under chapter 231 public law 1975 specifying the time, date, and location of this meeting by posting a copy of the notice at the municipal building on the municipal website and providing a copy of the annual notice schedule to the official newspapers of the burough. Notice is also on file in the municipal clerk's office.

Will the clerk please call the role? Council President Zbrano here. Councilman Collins here. Councilman Mao here. Councilman Posnansky here. Councilwoman Payne here. Councilman Potter here. Excuse me. Thank you. Mayor Murray present. Burough attorney Dolo present. Burough engineer Mlen present. Burough engineer Puscanka present. Burrow administrator FAR here. And I am also present.

Will everyone please stand for a moment of silence then followed by the salute of the flag. To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Now is a time for public comment limited to the resolutions on the agenda only. If you wish to speak, please step up to the microphone. State your name and address for the record. Again, this is the public portion is limited to the comments only on the resolutions listed on the agenda. At this time, there'll be a 5m minute time limit as set forth by the rules of council. If someone raises their hand, please come up to the microphone, state your name and address for the record. Seeing none, I'll close audience comments. Ordinance, public hearing, second hearing. The following ordinance which introduced on November 10th, 2025, published accordance with law. If any member of the public wishes to comment on this ordinance, they may do so after reading. Will the clerk please read ordinance 251576 by title?

An ordinance to amend chapter 25 water section 25-7.23 replacement of water meters of the revised general ordinances of the burrow of Miltown. May I have a motion in a second, please? Motion second.

I have a motion made by Council President Zbrana, seconded by Councilman Potter. Now I'll open up the public hearing on ordinance 251576. Please state your name and address for the record. These comments are limited to the comments only on on this ordinance only. If someone raises their hand, please come up to the microphone. State your name and address for the record. Seeing none, I'll close uh public comment. Uh is there any council comments?

Yes, Mr. Mayor. The only um question I have regarding this ordinance is those letters that are going to be going out. Um recommend that they be uh bilingual just so the residents so we may have residents that may not understand. So want to make ensure that all the residents who get them understand. So that was my comment. Yes, Mr. Mayor. I think this is excessive the 250 and you know there are certain rules about excessive fines and penalties um in the law. So, I'm not sure if this is uh goes under that. Have we checked that out, Mr. Vnola? The fine is is a fine to ensure compliance. It's it's it works. It's fine.

It's 250 per month. I I don't see this being beneficial the residents of the town. I I'm not sure what everyone's story is. That's uh that's the problem, you know, here. It's like we're left in the dark and u we don't really know what why these people haven't, you know, changed their got their meter changed. So I I just think it's 250 a month is too absorbent and it's going to cause a lot of more a lot more work for the people at the billing office. So that's all I have.

Well, I have I have some questions. Um we we we elected I I suppose if we would like to to shut off the water. Is that still um is that still a possibility? So that's still in the burough's current code, but the council at council meeting instructed me not to turn off water. Okay. I just wanted to make sure. Um some other questions. Uh are we still around 200 or below 200 as far as people have not complied? Yes, sir. That's around 8 to nine% of the residents residences in town, give or take. Yes, sir.

Okay. Um, is there a correlation with the people that have not paid their their water bills also? Because I I remember speaking to you last year and it was around 10 10 or 12% of people that don't pay their water bills. Is is there about 12% but we make up for that at tax sale. So, anybody who doesn't pay you we get them at the end. Yes, sir. Yeah, I understand. But but are some of these people the same people? That's that's what I'm looking at. We didn't do that. didn't do that correlational study. That's really incidental if if I may, sir.

Okay. Um, is it also a potential zoning issue? Because I I know um or I've heard there are illegal boarding houses and illegal two, three family homes and some of those people will not want someone in that house. So, the water meeting replacement are not the zoning officials. Uh they're there strictly to walk in, replace the meter, and walk out. No, I I I understand that, but but I I think that that one sometimes goes into the other. That's that's my point because some these people are not contacting you back or us back and that could be a possible reason why they are not. It could possibly be, sir.

Okay. Okay. I I also want to say I was at the senior center last week and u a lot of them are concerned. Um, Councilman Collins knows um they're hearing that that they'll lose their homes. Um, that that uh their water's going to be turned off. And uh I I calmed them. Some of them asked for my help, which I gave. And some of them came to me because they were concerned that they thought someone in the group um may have this issue. So, and I do have a couple names that I'm I'm looking into the situation. And u that's all I have to say about that.

Will the clerk please call the role. Council President Zambbrana I. Councilman Collins no. Councilman Mo I. Councilwoman Payne I. Councilman Pnansky. No. Councilman Potter I. Motion carries. Mayor. Ordinance public hearing second reading. The following ordinance was introduced on November 10th, 2025. Published in accordance with law. If any member of public wishes to comment on this ordinance, they may do so after reading. Will the clerk please read ordinance 251577 by title?

An ordinance to amend chapter 25 water section 25-4.1 water rates of the revised general ordinances of the burrow of Milto. May I have a motion in a second, please? So move.

Second. Have a motion made by Council President Zambrana, seconded by Councilman Potter. Uh, I will now open up public hearing on ordinance 251577. Please state your name and address for the record. These comments are limited to the comments on this ordinance only. Someone raises their hand, please step up to the microphone. State your name and address for the record. Seeing none, I'll close public comment. Uh, does any council member have any comments? Seeing none, will the clerk, please call the role. Council President Zambra, I. Councilman Collins,

no. Councilman Mo, I. Councilwoman Payne, I. Councilman Posnitzki, no. Councilman Potter, I. Motion carries, mayor. Ordinance public hearing second reading. The following ordinance was introduced on November 10th, 2025. Published in accordance with the law. If any member of the public wishes to comment on this ordinance, they may do so after reading. Will the clerk please read ordinance 251578 by title? An ordinance to amend chapter 22 electrical service section 22-38 general service of the revised general ordinances of the bureau of Miltown subsection 22-38.3 service rates. May I have a motion in a second, please? So moved.

Second. I have a motion made by Council President Zebrana, seconded by Councilman Potter. I will now open the public hearing on ordinance 251578. Please state your name and address for the record. These comments are limited to the comments on this ordinance only. If someone raised their hand, please come up to the microphone. State your name and address for the record. Rosa Tavaris, 100 Reva Avenue. So, um, when does this service rate increase go into effect?

For electric, I believe it was going to start in January, even if it gets processed now. 31 December, ma'am. Okay. So, but we just had an electric service rate increase in April. April 1st. Yes, ma'am. So is is that going to be an ongoing thing where our electric rates are raised twice in a year?

So this this rate increase is is uh due to a recommendation by our CFO. So our CFO and our BA, Fred Carr. Our CFO's name is Joe Zena. U what they're doing is looking at the spot rates into the future and they're already seeing a potential 20% increase next year. So what we're trying to do with this increase is get ahead of it. not do 20% right now. Only do 10. And hopefully hopefully I don't know if it's going to work or not. Hopefully when the battery project is up and running sometime in June that we'll be able to keep it at 10 and not have to go up an additional 10. So what did what did it go up in April? 10 20. Yeah, it had been it had been a considerable amount of time

believe since it had gone up and all those things that we mentioned about the lack of renewable energy resources being maintained and reconstructed and the data centers that are popping up all over the state that draw on amen that have raised the demand on power. It is a um no one likes it myself included. trying trying to be more proactive, not just kick it down the road. Okay. It I mean it's it's significant, right? 20% in April and then another 10%. No argument there in January.

No argument. And I understand we're trying to get ahead of the but maybe we can look at like you said renewable or you know the thing that I've noticed with Miltown is that um so what's available to us in terms of like putting um solar panels on our roofs that's an option right? could be

uh you know a while back I had central air put in. I couldn't get certain um rebates because Miltown has its own utility um

service, right? So, so that that that's the bigger picture of the utility issues that we have in this town, right? is that as a resident my hands are tied in terms of what I can do for myself to kind of reduce the cost for myself. In terms of the solar panels, I've looked into it. It may be a liability. maybe an asset if you invest, you know, it depend, you know, so it it's kind of so I mean that that's the the longer view of what we might consider in terms of what we can do to address those kinds of issues because as a resident my hands are tied. I can't shop for electric rates anywhere else, right? Nope.

Nope. So, okay, that's all. Thank you. opposed public comment. Does any member of council have any comments?

I do. I'm going to vote no on an increase. Unfortunately, I realized that that the increase is needed and I'm going to go into why I'm voting no. Having to increase the electric last year and again this year is sad for Miltown and New Jersey. This hit struggling residents very hard. This is not an accident. This is mismanagement by very few affecting millions. Number one, closing clean coal fired power plants. Two, closing nuclear power plants, eliminate most of production of natural gas, etc. We produce enough in electric and energy that we are a ne a net exporter. Now we import most of our electric. We now rely on high wholesale prices from the PJM market where we have competition from other struggling states. The BPU has not been kind to New Jersey residents with its governorapp appointed chairman and $2 billion taxpayer dollars for failed windmill project has brought us here. That's why I'm voting no. Thank you.

Yes. Yes, Mr. May. I'm voting no also just in sympathy with the residents who have to pay this. I wish there was a way out, but there's really not. Like this lady was saying that there's no way we can get out of this. So, it's like until we figure something out, this has to come from the state. It won't it won't come from here because every town is affected by this.

Clerk, please call the role. Council President Dan Brown, I. Councilman Collins, no. Councilman Mao, I. Councilwoman Payne, I. Councilman Posnki, no. Councilman Potter,

I. Motion carries. Ordinance, public hearing, second reading. The following ordinance was introduced on November 10th, 2025, published accordance with law. If any member of the public wishes to comment on this ordinance, they may do so after reading. Will the clerk please read ordinance 251579 by title? An ordinance to amend chapter 2 administration section 2-7 business administrator subsection 2-7.5 qualifications of the revised general ordinances of the burrow of Miltown. May I have a motion in a second please? So moved. Second.

I have a motion made by Councilwoman Payne, seconded by Council President Zabbrana. I will now open the public hearing on ordinance 251579. Please state your name and address for the record. These comments are limited to the comments on this ordinance only. If someone raises their hand, please come up to the microphone, state your name and address for the record. Seeing none, I'll close public hearing. Does any council members have any comments? Yes, Mr. Mayor. I'm wondering what are we changing here that was not in these body qualifications that it was before?

Peter's asking a question. So, as uh indicated on first reading, the subsection B is the new portion of this ordinance that's been added. It it allows for an associates degree with a minimum of of 5 years u in experience. That doesn't sound right to me. You're going to pay somebody uh with an associates degree and five years experience. You're going to pay How much is that going to go to? I don't know. I'm not in charge of the salary or I don't know what the scale is. What What does that go to, Fred? for 150k 150,000 with an associate degree.

Well, if you look at it, sir, it's a minimum of five years experience uh in a responsible management conversation. So, allow me. So, you had somebody who went to Middle Sex Community College as an example, uh have a associates degree in business administration or something like that and then they spent 25 or 30 years as a director of public works in some town. um not like Ralph but some person where the guy was a public works director in in place like Perth Amway uh where the director had a associates degree but he had 150 people working for him you know with a $50 million budget you know or something some insane in number like that if you know that's the budget in some of these public works or some of these other towns larger towns for that director is bigger than a combined budget of Miltown and four or five other towns comes together and so we're trying to hoping personnel committee is hoping to expand the pool. That's all it is. You don't have to hire them. You just opening there as an opportunity for other candidates to be possible eligible where previously they didn't even they could not even apply.

How do you feel about this, Frank? I think that the council uh needs to look at a wide range of opportunities, okay, for the burrow of Miltown because as you know, sir, in what's it 8 24 in 36 days, it's a moot point.

This is true. If we're going going to accept lesser credentials, then I think that everyone on council who has the ability should look at the resumes when they come in because I I'll I'll decide who I I believe is the right person even if everyone else votes against. But everyone here deserves the ability to see every resume that comes in. Well, I I would object to that because that's the responsibility of the personnel committee and then we will make those recommendations to the council. Just like for your committee that you chair, you make similar recommendations.

If you look in the bylaws or if it's not in the bylaws, it's in Robert's rules. Everyone on council is allowed to see a resume. They just don't necessarily make use of it, but everyone is allowed to see a resume. And your point and my point is because I'd like to also be able to know this person aside from coming in getting a getting the uh agenda packet on a Friday and coming in on Monday and voting for the person because any of you have recommended them. I I I will decide who I think is the right person whether everyone else votes for that person or not. Ultimately, yes, Council Councilman, you can vote and you can see the resume and so

Well, well, if I'm allowed to see your resume, that's my point is that I'm allowed to see your resume. The resumes are always Wait, can I just finish my sentence and then you can respond. Thanks. Um, so you're not asking for anything different and it's the same process that we follow with all the committees, right? I'm saying I'd like to see your resume. Well, you will see it in the packet. Well, I'd like to see it before the packet because it's allowed. Coun Councilwoman Payne. It's allowed. So, that's why I'd like to see I appreciate your trust in the process, council. Excuse me. I appreciate your trust in our process. Council, I do trust myself. Thank Thank you for smiling about that.

Yeah. Okay. I I I just feel like you're lowering the standards here because usually these jobs take a four-year degree. But then again, like I said, I've seen people with two-year degrees and they they do just as well. So, I I don't know how I feel in this one. This was tough. I'll have to I'll have to rely on the personnel committee. Thanks, John. Will the clerk please call the role? Council President Zamba, I. Councilman Collins, I. Councilman Bankov, I. Councilwoman P. I. Councilman Posnki I. Councilman Potter. I. Excuse me. Motion carries. Mayor.

Ordinance introduction. First reading. This is an introduction on ordinance 251580. There will be no public input on this ordinance tonight. The introductory summary will be published as required by law and a second reading. Public hearing and final adoption will be considered at this December 15, 2025 meeting. Full copies of this ordinance will be posted on the burough website on the bulletin board at the municipal building and available at no cost in the office of the municipal clerk between the hours of 8:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m. Monday through Friday. Will the clerk please read ordinance 251580 by title? Ordinance to fix and amend salaries and wages for various Miltown Burough employees and providing the manner of payment thereof.

May I have a motion in a second, please? So moved. Second. Have a motion made by Council President Zambrana, second by Councilman Potter. Are there any comments? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the role? Council President Dan Brother. I. Councilman Collins, I. Councilman Mo, I. Councilwoman Payne I. Councilman Posnitki I. Councilman Py I. Motion carries. May.

Authorization of municipal obligations. Next on the agenda we have authorizing payments of municipal obligations. Will the clerk please read resolution 2025-358 by title. authorizing the payment of bills, claims, and statements against the Burough of Miltown in the total amount of $4,112,326.61. May I have a motion and a second, please? So moved. Second. I have a motion made by Council President Zambranes, second by Councilman Potter. Is there any questions, comments? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the role? Council President Zra, I. Councilman Collins, hi. Councilman Maker. Hi. Councilwoman Payne.

Hi. Councilman Pnanski. I. Councilman Potter. I. Motion passes. Mayor,

a consent resolution has been prepared for the resolutions listed on the agenda. All matters listed under the consent agenda are considered to be ret routine in nature and haven't been reviewed by burough council will be enacted on in one motion. Any items that may be removed from the consent agenda at the request of any council member and if so removed will be treated on as separate matter. Any items requiring expenditures are supported by a cert certification of funds. If any member of council wants any resolution acted upon individually, please give me the resolution number and it will be pulled from the consent resolution. I 2025-362 rules of council.

Yeah.

Will the clerk please read the consent resolution or consent agenda resolution minus 362 please? Whereas, pursuant to the rules of council, the council may establish a consent agenda for any regular or special meetings upon certain conditions. And whereas each of the following resolutions presented before the burough council at its November 24th, 2025 regular meeting appear to have the unanimous approval of all members of the burough council. Resolution 2025, 360 and 361, 2025 363 through 369. Now therefore be it resolved by the Burough Council of the Bureau of Miltown that each of the above list of resolutions be approved and adopted by the Burough Council with the same legal effect as though each was read in its entirety at the November 24th, 2025 regular meeting and adopted by separate.

May I have a motion and a second, please? So moved. Second. Have a motion made by Council President Zabbrana, seconded by Councilman Potter. Will the clerk please call the role? Council President Zabbr. Councilman Collins. Hi. Councilman Mango. Hi. Councilwoman Payne. I. Councilman Posnansky. I. Councilman Potter. I. Consent agenda Caris. Will the clerk please read resolution 2025-362 by title? Amending rules of council. What's the pleasure of councel? A motion in a second, please. A motion.

Motion in a second. Second. Sorry, my voice. I have a motion made by council councilwoman Payne, seconded by council president Zbrana. Is there any discussion?

Yes. I do not like the direction that we have been going for the last three months here and it's troubling. It's been about abridging free speech by ignoring laws, creating laws improperly. Now, another change to the rules of council. Is this political, personal, or other? As our attorney knows, we may limit council comments timewise. He may also know that this is rarely done. When applied in law, it is generally a 10 minutes a break, then another 10 minutes. As I am generally the only one speaking during council comments, I'm always prepared. I time myself before meetings and I never reach five minutes. As an elected representative, I'll use my time to give opinions and information that I deem important for the residents. I am sure my words make some people uncomfortable. I also thank others for their time and dedication to Miltown residents such as George Gis. Chief G is an example of a noble man who has lived an extraordinary life and I thank him and I use my time here to fight for the heart and soul of Miltown. Others fight me. I articulate my points for the benefit of Miltown. I don't speak fatuous meandering, so I will vote to kill this resolution. If I go down with the ship, I go down with the ship. So be it.

Thank you,

Mayor. I'd like to um make some comments about this um resolution as well. Um, and maybe just uh for some clarity from my colleagues here on the council, um, I I don't have any objection to the notion of being in parody with the time that is allowed for public comment, you know. So, um, our rules, our burough rules, um, limit public comment, um, to five minutes and then, uh, an additional five minutes, uh, you know, afterwards. Um, so I really I really agree that if they're limited to their public comment time, then then I don't object to that for the council. Um, and we all have an opportunity to give our reports and ask questions and make comments like we're doing, you know, at the moment. Um, so if we were to approve this change, um, I guess my question is is will this actually be enforced? Because we do not enforce that with public comment. And I mean no disrespect to um, folks that come forward. I actually enjoy listening to all of you and uh you know so my question is um it would have to be enforced equally right if it's going to be enforced for council members in regard to public comments then it should be enforced for public comments um by audience members. Does anybody have any thoughts on that?

I think you have a good point. I think, you know, it's um I hate to limit somebody to, you know, have their freedom of speech, you know, compromised, but you know, we don't want people abuse it. Usually, we use the council discretion, but my biggest problem is we're changing the rules with one month to go. Why can't we just wait till the end of the year and change it next year?

I mean, we're here to serve the public. This doesn't seem like it's serving the public. I just I don't I don't know. Mr. Mayor, I think the qu I'm sorry, Frank. Go ahead. I I just like the mayor to also comment um because he is the one that would um enforce the rule, the change as well as enforcing public comments rules. So, I would like some comment from the mayor on that. No comment. You have a question? I mean um as many of the

the Robert's rules and all of these rules are subject to the discretion of the council of the mayor and there are guidelines. Um we've made you know in the past we've made special circumstances or we've allowed people to speak longer uh you know when when it seemed to suit the public's need and that is really the whole deal suiting the public's need. I mean, you know, council comments are council comments, but if you notice, they actually exist after everything that is the business of the town has been completed that day. So it it implies that their comments, their opinions, they're not circumstantial, they're not directly related or they no longer affect the business of the town that has happened that evening. So it and again I don't think that I should have any greater occurrence or lesser than the people who voted for us and people who are here to speak. didn't seem uh just doesn't seem un uh I don't doesn't seem out of the ordinary to think that we'd have the same amount of time that any other public entity would any other person at a podium does. There's a difference. We were elected here and for the transparency of the people in the audience here or at home they deserve to know our opinions information we would like to give them or other

they get short changed. I would like to reiterate my point to the mayor. Does the mayor intend to enforce the rules equally when it comes to the five minute time rule? because I have not seen the mayor take any action with regard to limiting comment based on the rules the entire time that I've served on the council. I have and will the clerk please call the role. Wait a minute. We still have open discussion. Sir, yeah, you got a good point, Pat. I mean, that's true. I mean, you know, people do run over in their time and uh like who's going to be in charge of the time, right?

It's a good point. It's not in this. I I don't see that it has to be the mayor that's the keeper of the time and someone here should be assigned that. He's that he's Well, I'm just saying he's the administrator in charge in terms of public comment and he does not limit public comment. He runs the meeting. That's his job, right? So, he doesn't limit the time. So, he's going to have to get an hourglass or something and turn it over, you know, every time. And I don't think there's been any, you know, revolt from us to try to limit the public from commenting. We listen intently. We want to hear what you have to say. And those same rules then and that same order of business should also apply to council members then.

Council President Zambbrana I. Councilman Collins. No. Councilman Mako. Hi. Councilwoman Payne. No. Councilman Posnitki. No. Councilman Potter. I mayor, there is a tie.

Um, this is for updating the rules of council. Rules of council for that. Um, no motion fails. Reports from elected officials. Council President Zumba professionals. This is reports from professionals. Not not council. Okay. Sorry. We're um reports from professionals. Mr. Vinola.

No report tonight. just an indication that um the executive session scheduled for this evening can be cancelled. We will not be going into close session, but I would ask the clerk to keep it on for future meetings in the event that we we do. Mr. Piscanka.

Yes, Mr. Mayor. Uh quick update on the uh meter project and I think Mr. McClone's got something he wants to speak about. Um to date 2,368 accounts are completed. 20 are now scheduled. Um the exact number of unscheduled is 182. And um some things that are scheduled in December. We have nine commercial properties scheduled and the meter installations for the buron properties are also scheduled for the first three weeks of December. Thank you. And Mr. Mayor, as last meeting you asked us to put together a project scope for the uh lead and galvanized water service line replacement. We have a letter here tonight for business administr business administrator Carr. Basically describes the type of work. We have some what we think is hopefully good news. We spoke to one of the plumbers that does a lot of work in the burrow and he believes that about 80% of your service can be either pulled through which basically they connect to the old service and pull the new copper service through or they use what's called a mole which basically jacks the line out and pulls the new one in behind it thereby reducing the cost to something more hopefully uh competitive. Now we we're asking somewhere between 10 to $20,000 per service. We're hoping for better. I mean 10,000. We have received some prices in other towns. This is this uh service line replacements going on all the towns in New Jersey. So uh we about 70 so far from the meter replacement project that we've determined would be led. Obviously we have another 200 homes to to go through and check. If you use the same percentage, it's going to come to somewhere between maybe 70 to 80 maybe 90 services which should uh hopefully get uh you an awful lot of these done. Uh so uh that's the good news for tonight. The overall we're seeing your project cost about 835,000 about 165,000 for soft cost for bid

phase design services and for an overall project cost a million dollars. Some of the engineering that's involved is preparing bid specs. Uh a plan set which would include aerial imagery of the replacement locations. And that's important because if you have to go through and do open excavation, people have things on their front lawn and the contractors will be required to go through and replace those. And I'm uncomfortable doing other way because of the fact that if you don't have a certain shrub and you some folks generate sometimes a Japanese maple tree could cost you $1,000. So we want to make sure that the contra damage that we're restoring it properly. bid phase service view of shop drawings and other submitts which again comes up to be a um a very complex thing these days field observation services the service being installed and uh the biggest difficulty you're going to have is locating where these services are many cases in not only Miltown many of the older towns you just don't know where your water service is and that's really where the hijinks is but uh it looks like uh for a million dollars you can do at least 70 service at this point so

Mr. McClone, do you know anticipated start ballpark? Well, we um once we're authorized, we feel we can probably get you a set of drawings within 60 days or so. So, hopefully after the new year, if we get authorized, we'll hopefully be able to get on the street right away. And what um what would be the order that these lead line replaced? Like what's the uh what's the process? Is it going to be like the first person that made a that made a um uh an appointment or is it going to be by district? Well, I I I would think that what you're going to say to me is Mlullen and the engineers. Is there an engineering recommendation? Because typically you'll do neighbors in neighborhoods rather than jump around the town, right?

And the reason it is is, you know, yourself in the older part of town, you're going to have more lead service than you will in the newer part of town. So, you may as well get the whole portion of one neighborhood done rather than jump around it. It just, I think, is a better way to do it. Plus, then the damage to the road is minimized. You know what we're planning on doing with this jacking method in the in the pulled method is you basically excavate a hole over the top of the water line and then pull it through. So there's just a little trench a trench just a small opening much like you see the gas companies. So if that works um it'll minimize the impact of the roads also. So thank you.

Okay. And we'll make a recommendation bas based upon as to where where to go. Short of that you do first come first serve but I just don't know that that's the best answer for managing step. Okay. Thank you. Does any member of council have any old business to bring before council?

Yes, Mr. Mayor. I got something. Councilman Mango said something strange and I got a lot of questions about it last week about individual and personal household incomes or something. I can't make heads or tails of this. Maybe you could explain, Frank, what you were talking about cuz I got a lot of questions down the senior center and they didn't know what you were talking about either. Um, actually I vaguely remember it, but basically it was the idea that when things go up, it seemed that conversations that have happened adjacent to me seem to imply that a family of two when things go up 3%. That hurts them very much. Whereas I was making the point that if the water bill goes up 3% and two people have to pay it, that is terrible. If the water bill goes up 3% and there are four people living in that house and two of them are kids, there's still only two people making money to pay that bill. And just based on numbers, they would use more water than the two. So their bill would go up more even though it's still 3%. The physical dollar tally would go up greater and there's still only two people breadwinners so to speak paying that bill. Meaning that when things go up, things go up. And a bigger family, more people living in a house or just two people living in a house, things go up and it's uncomfortable for everybody. Uh it seems to me that there's you know understandably seniors have limits to their incomes but on some extent I've got a limit to my income too. I've asked my boss he has a limit. Uh we all have limits and as things go up

suffering is universal. Inflation is universal. It doesn't skip anybody. That was my point. I I I'm kind of like lost there. Like it one person has to pay it hurts but when two people have to pay it hurts half as much. Is that what you're saying? I mean it's it it doesn't it doesn't have any correlation of the in indicative of the numbers because there's a twoerson household if both of them are working for minimum wage and there's one person and they have a pension and investments. That doesn't mean the person who's an individual is going to hurt and he might have a pool in his yard and he might have sprayers. So, it's like, what are you talking about?

I'm sorry. I lack the eloquence to uh to make that discernable to you. Well, it's like, you know, it's like my mother always say people don't know how dumb you are till you open up your mouth. So, well, John, thankfully for the town, you've only got one more meeting where you'll have to listen to it. Yeah, they have to listen. Please don't be be disrespectful to other council members.

So, your piece will be done. All right, I'll close all business. Does any member of council have any new business to bring before council? Seeing none, close new business. Open to the public. The public comment portion of our meeting is to allow the public to bring to the council's attention their concerns or comments. The council will respect the public's time by refraining from the any comment till the speaker is finished. It should be further noted that the public comment portion of our meeting is not structured as a question and answer session. Please state your name and address for the record when you come to the podium. Just a reminder, under the rules of council, individuals wishing to speak during the public input part of the meeting shall be limited to a five minute and may after other speakers have finished may be allowed to speak for a second fiveminut period. Murder 99 JFK Drive. I just have a quick question. Uh this notice that came about about the water and it's being discussed I guess a little bit to draw down the water tank possibly.

Mhm. To correct the contamination. I believe

so Lee uh what uh that's so we have uh again violated the surface water treatment byproduct rule with the trihelmethanes uh one of the things we're trying to do is by lowering the level of the water tank from 38 to say 20 ft which is the current conversation it cycles the water in the system faster this prevents the water sitting in the system because it's flowing through quicker from east Brunswick. Uh the problem we have with uh the water in the burrow, as you know, or you may not, but is that it it's the chlorine, it reacts with the organic material that's in the water. The longer the chlorine is in contact with that organic material at the subatomic level, you get uh the formation of the triholthanes, it's just a matter of the water sitting there. If we move the water through faster, doesn't have chance to the chlorine doesn't have a chance to react with the organic material because it's being used and it's so that's why we're flushing more and why we've lowered the the water tank to try to move the water through the system faster.

Okay, I understand that. My my question though is lowering the water doesn't doesn't impact the pressure or anything like that. Well, that that that was my question. And for firefighting purposes, does that tank have to be full? No. Pretty much. No. The water pressure may is stack is is is is consistent. That's part of the conversation with Don and the water operators and DP is that the water lowering it by those few feet does not change the pressure for the firefighting portion of the conversation. Well, it's capacity. That's the It's just capacity. Yes, sir.

Because my my point to that was Ford Avenue. I know that if that goes, something's going to have to happen to that Williams tank, the William Street tank that's got to come back online. So, we have the ability So, we have the ability that if there is a significant fire event to, you know, you know, kick in all the pumps and all the interconnects all at the same time to bring more water into the system. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Appreciate it. Just want to make sure that Rosa Tvaris, 100 Reva Avenue. Um, I'm okay with being cut off. I can be long-winded. I understand. Um, I don't even know where to start. So, quick question. The people who have old water meters and the people who have replaced their water meters, we're all paying the same rates. Correct. Mhm.

Okay. So, I wanted to address something that um Councilman Pasnansky said last at the last meeting, which was that there are some residents who were asking about the possibility of opting out. Opting out of what? Smart meters. There's a difference in the meters, the old meters, but we're still all paying the same water rates. And assuming that it's the information gathering is different, which means what? That you're gathering more more usage. Smart meters come in every seven seconds. The the typical home meters that haven't been replaced, you get checked once a month. Does that make sense?

So, what does that mean? that I'm I'm using more water because I have a smart it's being read as as quicker. So I'm using more water because I have a gold reason instead of monthly 7 seconds. So it appears to me that it's more timely it's quicker.

But I but I still get build on the same cycle. Exactly. Your billing will not be changing. Um, yes, the running count is done at a different pace, but there is no difference in the timeliness of your billing or how that process is going to happen. Right? So, my real question is, is it a benefit or a detriment to me in terms of what I pay in my water bill?

It doesn't necessarily affect your water bill. It could be it could be cheaper. It's more AC. It's going to be more accurate. It It may be It may seem more expensive because the older meters possibly run slower and don't charge correctly. The new meters are dead on accurate.

Okay. So, so then I guess the real question is what's this like for you all that are part of these committees and that you have people coming to you and asking you questions and and asking you to clarify things. Are you clarifying this to the people who are asking for opting out? Because to me it seems like there's a lot of misinformation out there. So

we don't right now we don't have an an option to opt out. It it is very rare in New Jersey. There are certain circumstances. I have a lot of information that I I brought with me but it's not an option right now. And it it's an option PSCG for electric. You can contact them and you can opt out. I have information and say with American Water who services a lot of communities you can contact them and you can opt out of the the uh smart meters with them. But here, no.

Well, okay. But so in terms of what residents the information that residents are getting, like I don't understand what this resistance is about having your meter changed when it's part of this bigger project to identify whether or not you have a lead service line and whether or not there's funds available to change it. Like what what is what is the resistance about? I don't understand it. You have to ask them. Have you had yours changed? Yours changed? Yes. You don't have resistance to it. People are scared.

Oh, I have res No, my resistance is to the fact that if I have a lead service line, I don't believe that I should have to pay for it. I have resistance around that because I think it's an infrastructure issue. But my understanding in terms of I as a homeowner and you the burrow who provides the um utility, I have to give you access to my property to maintain the utility. And it seems to me folks are refusing to give the burrow access to maintain the utility. That's part of my responsibility as a homeowner is to give the burrow access to maintain the utility. I don't own the utility. Therefore, you all have to come in and you didn't ask you didn't send me a letter telling me to go to Home Depot and buy my own water meter. You asked to come into my home to do it. So, I what I don't understand is because I'm going to be impacted by this. There's money available. There could possibly be more money available. residents are standing in the way of this project being completed, the meter project. And once that meter project is completed, the meter replacement project is completed, then they can identify how many lead service lines need to be replaced and how that's going to go about being done.

This isn't the ones that are not complying. They might be hurting themselves in the long run. They are not hurting you. They're not hurting other residents. And and I guess that's my last comment is that as a resident and as a homeowner, people have to take responsibility for their choices and their actions or lack of acting, right? So like I've been coming to meetings for over a year now and this thing keeps going on and on and on and it just seems ridiculous. Like I mean I believe you guys have tried to explain why our water rates are going up. You've tried to explain why this lead service line replacement thing needs to happen. It's not a decision that Miltown has made. It's a decision that the state has made. And at some point, if it's not now, if people opt out of doing this in 5 10 years, the state's going to say, "Oh, by the way, to sell your home, this needs to be done." Or worse, you can't get homeowners insurance if you have a lead service line leading to your home. So at some point people need to take responsibility for the actions that they take or they don't they don't take. But I think my point is that this misinformation about this lead service line and people opting in and out like just get your meter changed. It makes it you know just just

what do you mean by misinformation though? Well you mentioned it last time. You know, people have asked about the the possibility of of opting out. No, there's no possibility to to opt out. Like, well, here there isn't, but there are other places that we're talking about. But that's my point, Councilman Pnansky. That's my point is by entertaining this kind of conversation with the residents, you're doing them a disservice. I don't believe so.

Okay. Well, that's my humble opinion. And and I will add one other further humble opinion which is that as one resident I have heard you say many times that you are on council to serve the residents of Miltown. This ongoing debate about whether council minutes are read once a month or at every meeting is just ridiculous. Pick one, go with it. like if I need information about what's happening in the town, I'm not going to wait for your reports and and I know that you all spend a lot of time preparing them and I'm grateful for that and they they carry good information. But if I need something pertinent to my life, I'm either going to go on the website or I'm going to call the burrow, whatever department I need, or I'm going to call the library and get information or I'm going to come to a meeting and get and ask a question. And and in terms of seniors who may not be internet savvy, you pick up the phone and you call the burrow and you get the information. It's that simple. Like this ongoing debate about how many times uh council minutes should be read. It just it needs to like we have bigger things to discuss and to work out.

Can I just say one thing about the the water meters? You know there's a lot of things on the internet that you know people could start rumors allegations your pacemaker won't work your TV doesn't work you know this is the information this is what we also have to deal with when there's too much information out there you know you can get information overload you know there's a lot of information on the internet I understand and you know that we could turn it off automatically and that that's not true either but but that's the point is if we you know I think your jobs is to educate the people who are getting VA misinformation, right?

And when you entertain questions like, well, in other places, you know, they may opt out and what are we opting out of? Rates are going up. They're going up everywhere. We got to pay them. That's right.

And you know, whether you have an old meter or new meter, it's the same rates. So, just help, this is my last point because I'm probably over five minutes. I think that what this council and what we and every single resident in this town needs to concern themselves with is how we can what we can do together to improve this town and to improve real estate in this town and the value of our properties in this town. whether or not you're staying or you're selling, you know, if the word gets out that Miltown has the highest water, sewer, and electric rates going, that's not good for any of us, right? So, I think we all need to work together to do the best that we can for the town so that people want to stay in this town and they want to buy in this town so that one day I can sell my house and have a profit.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Ros. Thank you.

Seeing no other comments, I'll close audience comments. Does council have any comments?

Just a quick one, Mr. Mayor. I'd like to uh wish everyone here on council, mayor, uh your family, everyone in this room, and the residents of Miltown a happy Thanksgiving. I'd like to speak also. First thing I'd like to say is um this is in regards to uh Mr. Carr. I would like to recognize Fred Carr and his contributions to Miltown. He came to us last year when we were struggling and helped put us back on good footing. Mr. Carr has subbed as a temporary CFO numerous times and I'm thankful. We are on a solid path and as he departs Miltown, I feel he deserves a round of applause for his efforts and our continuing combat. I'd also like to to um wish a happy Thanksgiving for all the residents of Miltown. Um a day to be grateful for what we have and the kindness that we share. I' I'd like to leave you with a quote from U. Henry David Thorough. I am grateful for what I am and have. My my thanksgiving is perpetual. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. You you want to go next? I'll go next. I'd like to thank Mr. Dar too for his service. I feel like we we thanked you last year too, Fred. But you did a good job and I know we have a lot of hard questions and we go back and forth, but you did a good job, an outstanding job for the residents of Miltown. I appreciate it. And I'd like to say happy Thanksgiving to my fellow council members like Councilman Zimbran said, and to all the me the residents of Miltown. Happy Thanksgiving. U Mr. Mayor, thank you. Um just just a followup um with what um Mr. Varys was was talking about and I guess um Councilman Pndansky, just a quick question for you. Um you had mentioned that you were had spoken to the seniors and I know that you spend time with them um and that they were worried about certain things and with the changing of the meters. Do do you get a sense as to why they are not change like why they're unwilling to have the meters changed?

Yes. When you talk to them?

I I I won't say it's a lot of them because I I think with with with some of them um Councilwoman um their family, someone overseas, um they're afraid to answer a phone. They're afraid to open a door when someone knocks. And I did I do have a couple names because the one woman was concerned. She said about this other woman there. She says that she had asked her if she had her meter changed. She said she didn't even know what she was talking about. She says I think she's losing it. So I'm looking into that. There's another woman I guess contacted um the company and the company said they weren't in Miltown. I guess that this is where um Mr. Mlen that your your people are putting in some of the meters. But there there there's odd responses and I don't think they they the people there always follow up. They're just scared. I mean I mean I I was trying to calm them down and I told them that there's nothing to be afraid of

and the opt- out program that they want. It's not that I think they have something against it. They just don't want somebody coming in their house. I think that's what it is. maybe a followup with the chief of police that maybe someone could help them or some, you know, like there might be a way that we could help them feel safe if if if there's someone that has a problem. Like I said, I I I took a couple names because some people did have questions and uh and I am looking into that. But for the most part, they're just they're just scared. Especially the people in their their and a lot of them do live on their own and they're in their 80s. Yeah. Or 90s and they're on their own and they don't generally leave their house. So it they're just fearful.

Yeah. Well, I'm certain the burrow can help with them, right? Sure. I'm certain that can make them feel safe. I'm sure that the director Debbie Cuddy helps very much with them, too. They come to her.

All right. Thank you for suggest You're welcome. Uh, Mr. Mayor, just uh since our next meeting will be December 15th, just a friendly reminder, the annual treelighting ceremony will be held on Friday, December 5th. Uh, and now that the uh election results are official, I'd like to congratulate Council President Zambrana on his re-election and to Debbie Miller uh to your election to the C uh your election to the council. So, congratulations, Fred. I'm also going to miss you as well. Thank you for your service. And I also wish everyone a happy, healthy, and safe Thanksgiving.

I I just want to say one more thing in in regards to Councilman Collins. Um and in a good way. You only have one meeting left. We'll say our thank yous then. Thanks, Gary.

Uh I just wanted to say uh happy Thanksgiving. the uh man much wiser than me. I think Tiny Tim said uh God bless us all everyone. And I think that's just the simplest thing to say. That's really clear. Um you know, regarding the water, I kind of do think that it is for the betterment of the town. I'd like to thank the 2,000 some odd people who did do it. It concerns me that one person I know who got it done uh and they it ended up being a 3 four hour ordeal or ordeal is the wrong word but um this broke. They had to go look for the outside. They couldn't find it. It was in a different spot. They had to change the shut off. But at the end of the day, that was all completely free. If someone had to do that on their own, 4 hours of a plumber's time is a lot of money. If the town was going to go do that for somebody, we would either have to bill them or everybody else in the town would end up paying for those four hours. And that's not really fair when there was a free service available. So, as much as we would like to, you know, there was service trying to move someone into taking the free solution that could give them them a free solution if they have led. It's kind of an honorable endeavor. It's not it's not as mean as it may look from some spots. Uh and I understand how some people have fear, but we can try and help and work around it, but it is what it was designed to be. It's supposed to be good for the town. So, and that's all we can try and do. And Fred, good for the town is exactly Thank you for your time. We appreciate it.

Okay, I only have a couple things and it's um I had the honor of uh attending a uh an award lunchon uh with CME down at the League of Municipalities. Uh, I would like to give CME a round of applause for uh the battery project uh that um CME won uh for Miltown for um it's the entire state. New Jersey Society of Meners entire state. That's right. You're going to say that into the microphone. I don't think anybody heard you. It's the New Jersey Society missile engineers entire state of New Jersey. That's right.

Okay. Thank you. But congratulations to CME for the uh for the award for that project. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Appreciate it. You're here.

Um the uh I just want to reiterate how the uh meter replacement project and the lead line service is completely separate from one another. And I had um requested from CME to push that uh forward for the uh lead line replacement because I didn't want one to hinder the effectiveness of getting the other one imple implement it and start that process. So, um there are as as as yourself, uh there are residents that are impacted by this and shouldn't be um delayed because uh other residents don't want to get their their meters uh replaced and or inspected for uh lead lines. Um I'd wish like to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. Um Fred, I would like to thank you for your your service for the burrow. Uh it's been a a great great honor and a great pleasure. Um and Miss Payne the uh timer thing. So um it's always back and forth with the timer. Um so typically I try to say when uh council members go back and forth with a resident, uh you can't really cut them off because it's hard to say, okay, well you spoke for 30 seconds, you cut him out, this and that. So uh I I try to play it. Some people get long- winded just like council members. Uh but uh on the on the if it had gotten uh passed today, uh I actually asked Miss McCarthy to to uh get a timer so we can uh time um and it wouldn't be per se me to to push the button everything. So it was completely out of it. Um it would have been Miss McCarthy actually pushing the

button to start and stop. So there was no uh no everything was clear about it. Uh but that's what uh the intentions were right along with that as well because I try not to be long-winded as well. Um but I would like to uh Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I would like to thank everyone and have a a safe holiday. Um I would like to uh entertain a motion to adjurnn at this time. So moved. Second. I have a motion made by Council President Zimbran, seconded by Councilwoman Payne. All in favor? Any opposed? Thank you.