Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Yeah. You know the guy on television that blue? Yeah. That's pretty cool. No, it's it's okay. I'd like to call to order the uh April 13th meeting of the Washington Planning and Zoning Commission. First, sorry. Roco Gonzalez, Mark Clayner, Mark Pantek here, Mayor Hegedorn here, John Bortman here, Chuck Watson here, Chad Briggs

here, Kevin Wit here, Mike Wood here, Ken Shear here, Aaron Beckman here. Please rise and join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I hope everyone's had an opportunity to read through the minutes from March 9th. And if so, I would entertain a motion.

I wanted one change. Okay. on um page eight, it's got me quoted and I'm pretty sure that was a gentleman from uh Houston Homes. Okay. Any others? If not, I would entertain a motion. Motion to approve without a change. I'll second. Motion made and seconded to approve the minutes with that change. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed. Eyes have it.

First item on the agenda, file number 26-0407, preliminary plat Washington Square Shopping Center Plat 3, Hawthorne Investors LLC. Yes. Uh good evening, commission. So, uh the first item on your agenda tonight is a preliminary plat. This is a one lot um resubdivision of kind of the greater Washington Square Shopping Center. Here um you can see highlighted there is um the the portion of the greater Washington Square Shopping Center the applicant wishes to subdivide um from the shopping center. Um so lot 1B is what they're creating here. Um this is kind of a greater trend we're seeing as you know owners kind of get into you know uh or you know new new new tenants come in and and want want ownership of their their property. So um part part of a greater trend here. Um something something to note here is um this I've noted this in the staff report but um this specific application will need a uh variance um the uh the new uh tenant of um well I guess it's not a new tenant it's a whole new building um they're they're proposing a Chipotle um for this site and to fit the required um fire lane width on on site um they they need a variance the uh the red line on your Let's see. Where are we? Maybe. Where's my pointer? Is it working?

I don't see it.

No, it's off. There we go. There we go. Okay. So, the red line here is um the the setback, the 25 ft rear setback. Um as you can see, it goes right through their proposed new building. So, they will need a variance. Um and that'll happen uh next Monday at 5. Um and uh they will need that before final plat um approval which they are aiming for at the council meeting uh shortly after next next week. Um there's a cross access easement um on the plat here um right here as that that is all private in there. So you know that that'll be maintained so uh people can access the business. Um, and uh, yeah, I guess I think the applicant is is here if you want to come up and talk about the the project.

Good evening. My name is John Sha. I'm a civil engineer with BFA. We are representing both the future land and Chipotle who is the future tenant. So, this is similar to what happened with Taco Bell probably about eight months ago. They're going to parcel this area off, purchase the property, and then Chipotle is looking to redevelop. So, happy to answer any questions you have. So, which way will the building face? The building will face highway 47 to the west. And so, that's kind of kind of that's why the rear the rear setback is the 25 that they're going to be getting a variance on. Is that correct?

I mean, it's it's not so much as the the direction the building faces. It's that's the way that's the direction the road is. Okay. So, or the the yeah the where the lot is compared to where the road is. That's what determines the front side. So, Taco Bell to our north kind of gets away with it because they can utilize frontage to Highway 100 to the north on our parcel. 47's our front and you have to have a front opposite the rear. So, we're kind of stuck right there. So, the entrance is at the top at north side. Correct. Y. Okay. Sorry.

No, go ahead. What's the significance of the parking access agreement type? You've got notes on there. Yeah. So, um they they the way our off- streetet parking standards are written, they they on site they would not have um enough uh parking to meet our off- streetet parking requirements. Um, so they've entered into a a parking a agreement with um the the greater Washington Square Shopping Center to kind of get some spaces to meet our off- streetet parking requirements. And that's allowed. Um, you know, they just have to be within those parking spaces just or the the lot those parking spaces are on just have to be within 300 ft of the uh the primary entrance. And these these all meet that. So,

okay. Any other questions from commissioners? Thank you. Thank you. Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to speak to this? If not, I would entertain a motion. I'll make a motion. Second. Any other discussion? Sorry. So, we have a motion in a second to approve. All those in favor? I

opposed. Eyes have it. Item number two, file number 26-0409, special use permit, 14 West Main, zero lot.

Yes. So, um, before you, our next item on the agenda is a special use permit for a uh zero lot line building at uh 14 West Main. Um, there it is, downtown in the C3 commercial district. Um, so specifically, um, we're we're talking about the intersection of Maine and Jefferson. And, uh, this this photo on the bottom illustrates the parking lot, which is, um, you know, currently a a private lot next to where where Andy's Produce, um, you know, has has their outdoor storage. Um, specifically why this is a special use permit is, um, our our our C3 district calls this out as a special use permit. um in in uh their the code description, they say any proposed zero lot line on a parcel adjacent to a four-way intersection shall apply for a special use permit. So, the applicant is proposing where that that red square on your screen is. Um that'll be a a new um uh building. Let's see, was there a photo of it on that last slide? No, I guess not. It's it's later in the presentation, but anyhoom. So, this where this red square is um will will be a new building on top of that parking lot there. Um and so because it is to the uh the property line and there's the four-way intersection Maine and Jefferson there uh they're required to apply for a special use permit. And so some history um for the commission about why this is um was written the way it was and why uh zero lot lines are required to um obtain a special use permit. Um this uh arised after the main and market town homes were developed in uh 2020 and 2021. Um, specifically, this main and market was a two-way intersection. Um, and uh, the the commission and staff at the time um, believe that instituting, you know, requiring any sort of um, development downtown um, to uh, require a special use permit would be a good preventative measure to, you know, kind of get ahead

of um, any sight and distance issues that uh, we we we may face. um how and these are just a couple of Google Map screenshots showing that you know there were legitimate sight distance issues at at that site that that it needed to be a four-way stop. Um however, Maine and Jefferson is a four-way stop as of I think November or it was late late last year it became a four-way stop. Um so staff frankly has has no concerns um with this site. You know they it's it's a four-way stop. There are plenty of um four-way stops downtown that have, you know, all of their intersections covered by zero lot line uh buildings. Um and just some detail about um the applicants proposed um building here. Um it's an entertainment center, bowling, arcade center, event space. Um and something of note is that they only need uh planning approval to for uh the zero lot line uh property. Um all of the other uses are permitted. So, um, you know, it's just just making sure that they can build to the fullest extent to the property line. And as I mentioned there, Maine and Jefferson is a four-way stop. And I believe the applicant is here tonight. If you want to, um, come talk, you you don't have to, but, if you want to come talk to the commission, you you're more than welcome to.

Good evening. Dale Graphy. I'm a developer here in town. Um, yeah, we're looking at a bowling center here at Maine and Jefferson. Uh, I don't like that 3D model. It's nothing like it's going to look. I mean, it's going to fit uh the downtown look. This is just a rough rough draft. I I hate showing this, but um yeah, like Aaron said that uh that used to be Jefferson didn't have to stop. So, a line of sight up Jefferson is pretty necessary. Um I don't feel like it's necessary now. you can clearly see. I don't think I'll have any visibility issues, but uh you guys got any questions? Answer,

will there be on street parking then? Yeah, actually around that block. Um we're pretty much getting rid of all the all the two entrances and exits from the parking spaces. Most of the parking is obviously we're building on that whole lot, which is why we acquired the US Bank old US Bank lot. So, main entrance to this building will be off of Second Street and the parking will be caddy cornered from that at the old uh So there won't be an entrance off of Main Street.

There will there will mainly because um um the existing alley right now the Barcade that's going to that's going to become um if you guys been by recently we did a playscape a threetory that entire structure is going to be all playscape for different age groups. So that'll be like a membership based play, indoor play, trampoline, park, that that type of stuff. But all the parking will be back to the southwest.

Yes. And um like I said on Main Street, there's going to be no entrances. So it'll be all uh parallel parking all the way down Main Street. So we're going to open up a lot of spots that used to be entrances and exits. And we still on the back side of that building are going to end up with 40ome spots on that block. Um towards Second Street and then we'll end up with I figured 117 spots at um Second and uh Lafayette, one of the old US Bank, right? So, so I know there's a fire department connection on the front of the old Missuran building. Is that going to stay or will that be moved?

Yes. The existing plans right now are that that that FDC location stays in the same place. So, you'll lose a couple parking spots there. At least one. Exactly. Yeah. Didn't think of that. Any questions from commissioners? I guess on the on the parking aspect, Erin, I'm not real clear. Is that part of what we're I mean, what we're really being asked about tonight is the special use per

Yeah, that's that's correct. What what what planning commission is being asked is to uh allow the applicant to orient the building to um you know be uh you know take up the fullest extent of this lot here at the corner of Maine and Jefferson. Um however the parking though um you know next next week at the board of adjustment meeting uh the applicant has also requested a uh variance for off- streetet parking. Um in our in our code we you know downtown we do not require off- streetet parking standards for uh existing structures but for new construction we do require off- streetet parking. So the applicant is requesting um a variance for the amount of off- streetet parking they are they required to provide

the only variance they'll need. Correct. Have you heard anything from any of the property owners around you? I mean you own most of that property around you. So, unless Lisa says something to you, you're probably pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I haven't heard any u negatives. Um Main Street's starting to get busy. Um so, the parallel parking spots along Main Street. Um uh we try to be uh you know, Joe's complained before at lunchtime, I make sure all the construction guys don't park on Main Street so his customers have a place to park there. Um but, you know, it's getting busy there. So you think I mean I know you're moving Andy's to the other side too. I mean I mean they're basically losing their parking spot. Yeah. Now

by going outside Andy Zarin if you got do you have that picture you had be for Andy's will have when we There you go. Um Andy's moving to that side there. This building right here. Yeah. I'll be submitting for permits for that build probably next week. Um, but Andy's outdoor portion will be to the left of the the building and then that um that section behind it as well. That'll be all their produce and their Christmas trees and all that stuff. And then their customers will be able to use Well, you have public parking. City owns that, right? This the city owns this lot right here. Yes.

Yeah. So, they'll have public parking their customers can use and then the street parking. Of course, we're not going to care if our tenants customers use also the US Bank parking as well. And something to just note about that that I forgot to mention is um this board approved or well I guess recommended approval for a special use permit for Andes in 2022 to do outdoor storage. Um since it's all in the same lot, they don't need to do anything with that. So, just thought I' I'd mention that there wasn't a size requirement on that, was there, when we did that they allowed to use so much space? I I may not be exceeding it now. I don't remember. I Does anyone on this board remember? I I don't remember seeing anything on, you know, when I watched through the the meeting.

Mr. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, no. I have a question for Aaron. Did any of this needed to go by the Historic Preservation Commission? Eventually, uh it will need uh design review, but I I I don't think you're at that point quite yet for for details. Met with them a couple of times. They're actually helping me with the exterior design on the main. This is good to hear. This is good to hear. I wasn't being hostile. I'm being This is good.

I That's kind of why the building is just a blank I threw some windows on the upper floor just to, you know, and it is going to end up being a flat roof. It's not going to be the pitch roof that's shown in that. And uh I just wanted a blank slate so in these meetings we can just sketch and start drawing. You know, there'll be obviously a lot of brick work on Main Street. You know, my my request to him is uh be be kind. You know, obviously brick all the way brick all the way around this building is is very expensive, but Well, they're not going to be they're not going to be hostile, but they're going to be encouraging.

Yeah, I think everything's good. I mean, I'm going to spend money on Main Street and then try to try to save some money. You know, that corner of Maine and Jefferson, I think, is the focus they were really concerned about. They really wanted that corner to look right. But uh um then on the back side of the building and the side that goes up against the existing structure, all of that I can, you know, use a little bit cheaper building materials along there. So, and that will be a twotory.

Yes, it well it it it'll be a steel framed structure with, you know, a brick facade on Main Street and then there'll be a mezzanine. So, yeah, it'll be a twotory from from Second Street you enter actually on the mezzanine. That'll be the main entrance. I think I have your plans here. Yeah. So, this this will be the main entrance. There's Lavia on that one right there. So, the main entrance will be around right here where my mouse is going. Yep. And you'll enter it onto the mezzanine.

Yeah. That monos slope roof. None of that was none of that's going to and that's that's why uh Caroline to answer answer your question that's why it has not gone to historic preservation for official review yet because it's that's still a very much work in progress that they're going to have some input into it because you've got Andy stuff across the street which is very much in with the historic and you have a lot of very modern looking black which is fine but to temper that a a little bit for a transitional period area. Yeah, I'm learning uh that to get them involved early on.

We I know they appreciate that because too often they come in too late, you know. Yeah. Things are done like painted green and things like that that we don't know anything about. And yeah, so this is good. Yeah. I figured I may as well get them in and let them help me sketch up something. and uh uh with the spa I I picked colors on the palette of their book. So I thought well that's good. See and that's also good you know about that. So I want you to know that those are good things. Good and I don't think as I said I don't think you're going to get any grief but at the same time they need to be kept in the loop which obviously you're doing. So thank you. Absolutely. Do I see a walkway across

this is concept but I'm starting to get some numbers in and it looks really uh I think it might happen. And of course, I'll have to come and get approval on on that. Um, yeah, make it like the old bridge. Yeah, that's what we want to do. Hasslag is pretty exciting. Going to have to

be a concrete platform pre poured and we bring that in and then the the structure would wouldn't be structural. That would just all be facade. Um but yeah, we'd uh we really want to do that. Um and then can we wanted all this to be under one roof. So um and we're a little concerned about safety wise little kids getting away. We already see it on Main Street all the time. These kids coming in and they just get away from mom and dad and dart across the street. So um we thought the sky bridge could really be that could that connect directly to the arcade on

So I hope that works out. I totally understand the zero zotline lot line concept and why you want to do that. But I will tell you from the emergency services side and responding into areas like that, it's a real challenge because you can't see anything. And to negotiate a turn with a ladder truck or any larger truck is, and I'm sure delivery trucks have the same problems, is you have to get out into that intersection before you can really see how you're going to proceed.

So, I I understand, you know, that the development aspect of it and what we've done down there, I think, has been good, but it just so you know, it does make it a challenge for emergency services. Yeah, I I get it. You know, I guess if you're emergency vehicle, you're you're trying not to stop at every stop sign. You're trying to get Jefferson Street now is is a challenge. Yeah. So, that's I I totally understood why why that code was in place, especially when Jefferson didn't have the four-way stops because you needed to be able to see up further, be able to do it. And honestly, I didn't think about the emergency vehicle situation. They're trying to cruise right through that four-way,

right? you know, and to have a ladder truck and try to make that turn from Jefferson onto Main Street with cars parked in the street and everything is I can guarantee you is going to be a challenge. The challenge for me here on this build was that there wasn't on our properties downtown, there wasn't too many candidates that was long enough for bowling lines. This was like the only spot we can do it. So, um, if I need to cut off that building, um, yeah, I might have to jump through some hoops or just have fewer lanes. You know, I just won't be able to fit as many lanes in there. Would you be open to making a 45 on that corner?

That's what I was thinking would happen if we didn't feel comfortable if you you guys didn't feel comfortable with the zero lot line there. And what it's going to do to me is eliminate lanes. We might end up having 12 lanes instead of 14 or 16. However, we many we end up because I barely have enough room because the lanes are going to go along Jefferson there and so I barely if I have put a 45 on that I'll just have to push them all towards Lafayette. There you go. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Aren't there bumpouts on both corners? Bumpouts? Yeah. Where's no parking for a certain spot? Yeah, like that. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. And that fence is a good representation. That's where the building would be. So, um, the bumpouts make it worse. It makes it worse. Makes it worse. Yeah. It would be, you know, right now I think in the drawing Aaron had up there, we had 16 lanes. And Oh, yeah. That's what it would do. We would be because you can't go this way. Yep. Yeah. So you can see but those lanes drawn there that I barely have enough room to get them in the seating behind the lanes. So I' I'd end up just losing two lanes, you know, that's not going to stop us from building, you know, just 14 lanes.

It was just a thought that would that would make it easier for the customers, too. I would think that they would be able to have a little bit more visibility coming into the course that would come from the back. But for other other people coming to the downtown area, we maybe leave it a little bit more visually open.

Yeah. Uh for us, you know, I'm sure, you know, to build this structure and, you know, we do the projections and see if 14 lanes still make sense. I I I'm sure that it would. I don't think it's going to change the projections enough to where it's going to like scrap the project. You know, we need to put a 45 on there because that's what we need for emergency vehicles. Obviously, I want it square. I can get more lanes in the building, you know. Sure. Sorry. Yeah. Um is is your concern primarily just visibility around the corner as you go to turn the truck? Mhm.

Oh, because I mean, you know, typically from an urban design standpoint, we would most of the time we prefer buildings on the street, you know, on the sidewalk up on the street face as much as we can kind of thing. Um, I guess my one thought with that is with the pedestrian flow that's on Main Street, I don't think you're going to be going through there at high rates of speed anyway, right? You don't

you know I don't I don't think you're going to be in there making you might want to you know and if I'm on if I'm on the other end of your call I want you to but I don't know if if a person's really going to be able to to to drive through that area that quickly anyway just because of the pedestrian flow. Speed's not necessarily the issue. It's more of having the visibility of preparing to make that turn. Okay? Because if you've been down through there during the day, sometimes there's delivered trucks, there's Oh, yes. Trucks, there's there's all kinds of stuff that parks because there's no place to park. They park in a lane.

I'm I'm down there every day. And to be honest, and I know I started this by saying the parking was somebody else's issue to deal with, not not ours here tonight. But I do have real concerns about the parking because I think part of what's going to happen uh more so with Andy's moving is I worry that that's going to push parking into the old Droy's lot,

which is private lot. And I worry that, you know, people are always going to park where it's convenient and close. And I worry that people going to the alley are going to park like in Clary's lot with their building on Main Street because it's going to be a closer walk, right? So, It's it's not it's not that I don't like the idea or support the idea or anything. It's just a concern I have that people will park at the closest place they can possibly park. And I see some private parking getting filled up. And I see street parking that our other small stores, the dress shop, the ice cream shop, you know, you mentioned the the sandwich place and stuff. All those places rely on on the street parking and you know a lot of those you know a lot of your business is probably going to be evening. Some of those places aren't going to be open at that time.

Um but that's I agree. People park where it's closest. We we know all about that. Our lots are always full of everybody else's vehicles. I come down Lafayette coming back from lunch every day and you know the the side where the one drawing showed like a covered area for Andy's on the corner there at Lafayette in Maine. Yes. I'm assuming that's where their outdoor sales is going to. Correct.

You know, those parking spaces now are pretty much full every day, right? You know, at lunchtime today when I'm on a Monday, there was there was maybe one or two spots that weren't full, right? You know, in that area. So, obviously those cars are all going somewhere else, you know.

Right. Yeah. And we we let all the neighbors use those. I mean, obviously that's our private parking. We let everybody use them until we can, you know. So, um all those businesses on Main Street, they all park there. And, uh same with the US Bank Lot, the businesses across Lafayette, they all use that. And that's it's fine, you know, until it's not right. Right. And I I do believe I've been pushing for quite some time there is a parking issue. It's you know some people say it's a perceived parking issue but it's it's clearly not. It's it it's okay because all the everybody downtown that owns parking lots is gracious. If everybody that own private parking lots would chain off their lots then it would become obvious to everyone that there is in fact a parking issue downtown. You know any anytime there's a festival or parade or anything, all of our lots are completely full and that's great. You know, we love to see everybody coming downtown and have no issues with it until we have a business and it's messing with our patrons. Then we have to make it private parking. Um um I I you know have plans and have gotten bids on uh a three-story parking structure that takes up the whole block of the US Bank. I would love to see someday some kind of deal be made there

um between us and the city and get a structure put up. Um we're probably when the bowling alley is built, we're going to make that parking for the alley.

Um you know, we'll probably do something like you get a membership at the alley and that gets you a parking spot downtown whenever you want to use it whether you're patroning us or not. But the parking I I agree. I'm not sure what to do about it. You know, we tried to ahead knowing we were going to build this and acquire that that uh block. Um that's really the only all that was available. So fig we did everything we could to come up with as much off street parking as we as we can. So

I think it's great for the development. I'm just it's just getting more congested all the time. So, if we can get some weekday traffic down there. Yeah, that's that's another thing in that mezzanine that we hope to um we hope to be able to do some uh conventions and conferences and get some weekday traffic. Most of your businesses down Main Street are uh they survive, but you know, they really we all we're all in the same game. We you know, some of us lose money during the week and try to make up for it on the weekend. You know, that's the game everybody's playing. You know, a lot of them have full-time jobs, you know, because they love they love their store, you know,

and u we can stop get more traffic during the week. So, talk about any other questions for the owner from commissioners. Thank you. All right. Thanks, guys.

Is there anybody else in the audience that would like to speak to this? Good evening, commission. Tim Frankberg, fire chief. Uh, this is deja vu. Uh, these are 100-year problems you're allowing here if you let this go on a zero lot line on a corner like that. We did this ex, if you would be so kind, show the across the street corner at Maine and Jefferson. When Dr. Clary came, actually Andy came in and Dr. Clary subsequently rents that building. Uh, the building across the street has a 45 corner on it. There's a sight distance triangle that was put into place on that. It's actually in the code defined section 300. That is what would be the appropriate way of handling this same scenario here. Um it's not just this intersection. It's fifth and Jefferson is one of the worst in town from a sight distance perspective from responding to calls. And if you allow this building to go zero sight distance all the way to the corner, you're creating a problem for 100 years. It's going to be there. And this is what was done last time recent history and past and it works. Um the complaint actually arose from the block down at Second and Market and there was actually complaints from um citizens and the neighborhood about how tight that got particularly when those buildings were built down there on the zero lot lines down there and that's when the fire department came in here and proposed um that triangle uh putting that back into place.

Thank you. So you're saying there's a I guess could you could you I'm sorry reference the the code section again that this is city of watch 300 site distance triangle in the it's in the definitions. Okay. And the fire department does not agree with that development as stated. Just put that on the record. Just go in your search and put uh zero lot line set back or zero lot line. There it is right there. triangle. Yes, sir. It's in the definitions. So, it gives the parameters on how to do it. Thought that I thought we had that

it was codified. Um I don't think we necessarily wasn't enforced correctly um on second and market, but it was enforced at Jefferson and Maine on any I guess I Is there is there a specific code section that because this is a this is a definition, but is there a specific code section that says I'd have to do more research on, but this is defining exactly the problem you're looking at here. And we do not agree with a zero lot line all the way to the corners on that intersection. That's a 100-year problem. We're living it right here. And this is a nightmare up here at Fifth and Jefferson. And we don't want to see that continually replayed. I guess what is what is the issue at Fifth and Jefferson? the W Washington coffee shop is that's that's that's not great. You can't see. Sure.

Go the other Yeah. Go the other way and come up through the intersection and then try to bust through an intersection. You can't get through it until you're in it. There you go. Ask the truck driver to clip the corner. Yep. Yeah. Ask the truck driver. It slid up to the intersection one night and almost hit a car. I was a young firefighter and had a very very close near miss at the intersection. I guess I guess I would I would I would say that you know probably the traffic volume on Fifth and Jefferson

doesn't m it doesn't matter Aaron it is a problem of sight distance that you're creating a 100-year problem and that is not the way to fix it. Go to St. Louis and go look at why all the buildings are cut at 45s in the city of St. Louis. That's for sight distance so that you could see around a corner when you make intersections. It's the same thing applies here. It's a sight distance issue. That's why the building at Maine and Jefferson was done that way and was chopped in a corner. If you go down two blocks onto Maine and Oak Street, it's the same way in front of the building that's the art gallery has the front corner chopped at 45. Same premise back then so that you could see around the corner. The bank is actually set back off the street. They don't have any parking in front of this. That building is actually set back. That's why there's no parking in front. That building has an artificial setback in it as well. Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. Okay.

Interesting. So, the recommendation from the fire department would be to put that corner in airport of 45 and use the sight distance triangle as defined. Any other questions for Tim? That's fascinating because I see all those in St. Louis and I have no idea. That's why they're there. The bank did that too as part of when they did that property. One of the things the bank or not the property that project the bank came to the city and they vacated all the parking in front of the bank and they were able to do that but that helped them maintain the site distance plus their structural steel is right in that corner because they built the building over top the building so they had to have that building.

Yeah, they they built over top of the existing building. That was the only way they could make all of that work but they vacated all that parking at that time. Erin, take a look at the uh performance standards section 400 point whatever it is one I had it here a minute ago 400.1 sorry I just had it thanks chief

195 and it talks about the sight distance triangle Okay. Odor and waste elimination. Visibility. Okay. Visibility on corner lots, private streets notwithstanding. Nothing shall be erected, placed, planted, or allowed to grow. Um, chili obstruction. Hold. Sorry guys. I'll try and zoom in on this. Um, well, that's kind of

that's about as good as we're going to get. Okay. So that being the case, it would have to have the uh sight distance triangle and would not we would not have to put that in as a stipulation if we approve it this way. Correct. Correct.

I guess I'm confused about what exactly this is saying. Okay. All right. So, two So, it's saying, yeah, between 2 and 1/2 ft and 10 ft above street grade, you cannot put anything in the sight distance triangle. Is that that your reading, Mark?

So, I guess they could build a building that's can levered over the sight distance triangle. Sure. as long as it didn't it wasn't lower than 10 feet. Okay. All right. I see. I see. Okay. Okay. So, you could So, in theory in theory, they could they could um you know, you could you could still have the the the second story uh event center. Um you know, and then you're you know, you have a a pillar, you know, down. Um but the the you can't put a pillar in there. pillar. Okay. Nothing could be in that in that triangle.

Okay. So, but it but it could it could hang it could hang over, you know. Okay. I see. That makes sense. That makes sense. And that would still require the special use permit because it's Well, you still need that because of the zero zero lot line. Correct. Correct. Okay. Okay. So, I guess regardless the site distance triangle would you know that that would be you would need an extra. Okay, we're on the same page. I'm I'm I'm I'm there. I got you. So, we could approve it as is and the site distance triangle requirements would automatically come into play.

Correct. That's something that the building uh engineering and building and myself would would enforce through site plan. Any questions from commissioners or comments? So as this is proposed, basically we can make a um you know approval or a motion to approve it as such because that site distance is going to be covered in as he said the building approval process and stuff like that. So

he still has to meet all the other code requirements. It's just going to allow a zero lot line building. Right. Yep. Any other comments, questions? If not, I would entertain a motion. I'll make a motion to approve. Second. Motion made and seconded that we approve the zero lot line for 14 West Main. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Nice have it. Very good. We got good discussion and good dialogue going there. So, looking forward to it. Next item up is code changes. Fire code duplication code change recommendations.

Yes. Uh good evening commission and uh Tim feel free to jump up whenever I you know I have a presentation here but feel free to comment you know whenever you you you feel so so inclined. So, um this is this is something that Chief and I have been working on um for a number of months now and I think we're ready to bring it to you. Um just some things that we want to clean up. So, how the zoning zoning code and fire code interact. So, um a long a long time ago, um the fire department believed that the best way to ensure safe, clean, and adequate development throughout the city was to add pieces of the fire code to the zoning code. Um, however, this has since had the opposite effect as there's a section in the zoning that states uh, quote, "It is not intended by this chapter to interfere with or abrogate or enol any ordinance, rules, regulations, or permits previously adopted or issued and not in conflict with any of the provisions of this chapter, or which shall be adopted or issued pursuant to law related to the use uh, of buildings or premises. and likewise not in conflict with this chapter nor it uh is it intended by this chapter to interfere with or abregate or enol any easements covenants or other agreements between parties and this is the key part here except that if this chapter imposes a greater restriction this chapter shall control so there are a number of things that I'm going to talk about in this presentation um then chief will will mention here that uh the uh the zoning code has control of that maybe the fire code ought ought to have control of. Um so just talking about the responsibility of the zoning code versus responsibility of the fire code. Uh planning commission uh you all use the zoning code and comprehensive plan to guide the city council on land use, infrastructure and design to better the community. Fire department/building department use the fire code to ensure health, safety and welfare of the public. And there are certain items within the zoning code the fire code should regulate. So for example in the zoning code we um have the the length of fire lanes. We talk

about fire department connections. We talk about uh flash points. We talk about flammable liquids. And we talk about combustible liquids. Um and those last three, frankly, I don't know. I don't know why those were ever put into the zoning code, but those were defined. Long story. Okay. Okay. Well, there I could probably It's not worth the history lesson of that part.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Good deal. Good deal. So, um the implications for the fire department are as follows. uh fire chief is granted by the fire code discretion to wave or impose more stringent requirements on a case- by case basis uh for regulations in the fire code. However, this is not the case for fire code items controlled by the zoning code as per that section I I read off previously. Um this is problematic for uh fire department, the development community, and myself, the planning department. Uh for the fire department, they do not have control of several uh key matters they ought to be enforcing such as connections and fire lanes. for the development community. Uh if there's an issue with a fire lane, this means a variance, $300 plus one month turnaround instead of permission from the fire chief. We were talking about um you know, Washington Square and the the the fire lane and um you know uh last year when when Taco Bell subdivided off, they needed to get a variance for their fire lane width. Um where in most other communities, you know, fire chief would just say, "Hey, listen. You're this is this is okay in this situation." They had to go before the board of adjustment because uh fire lanes were in the zoning code. and for the planning department to strengthen the integrity of the zoning code. Um you know we recognize that the zoning code and fire code should work hand in hand. Uh but to strengthen both codes they should remain separate entities. So uh and then some additional changes um that we've kind of made with with this whole change is we've added several definition changes to kind of uh keep things in line with the international building code. Um these were things that Chief pointed out. So, uh, uh, squaring in our definition of what a boarding house and a lodging house are, um, just to, you know, be lock step with with the building code. Um, and then additionally, uh, a definition shall be added for above ground storage tanks as as followed. Tanks for the storage of hazardous materials, including but not limited to chyrogenics, toxic, poisonous, combustible, inflammable liquids and gases. The adopted international fire code tank and hazardous material definition shall be

utilized. And these were already special uses in uh our industrial districts, but um adding them as special uses in our agricultural district, our C2 district, and our planned commercial and planned industrial districts um are also part of this proposed uh code change. And chief, if you have anything else, um you don't are you does it? Yeah, I'm I'm done. So, I love the the word you had earlier. Was it abregate? Abregate. I love

I don't know if I'm saying that right. Yeah, Mark did well on that one. U long story short here is that this was creating a lot of grief for the developers. Um what was happening is is when the fire code gives some leeway in the way things can be done and this fire lane is an excellent example of that. Um there's been a number of instances uh for example the one by uh Los Cabos whatever that 5700 6700 block of highway 100 um there is a three-foot section of that fire lane that is 23 feet and the rest is 26 and that had to go through all kinds of hoops for three foot of fire lane um which ended up costing them and and so what we've been doing across the board throughout the city code is looking at various areas there's number of departments are doing this our department's doing it as Well, uh, within the city and looking at what code doesn't apply and shouldn't be where and and there's fire code that got overlaid into the zoning code and the zoning code is there for land use and and we fundamentally agreed on that and so then we started looking at where should this stuff pull out and what should be done. Um, so this is an effort to clean that up. Um, you know, the tank special use, yeah, that's a special use that that that somebody needs to jump through a couple hoops for. Um, cleaning up definitions is something that I requested just so that there's continuity between the code. Uh, some of this code was originally out of Bokeh, uh, 1993 to 1999. Uh, so some of that didn't get caught up. Uh, but overall what this is is an effort to to clean up the code a little bit and put the right code in the right spot.

So when you're referring to combustible liquids is all deleted out. All that's covered into the

all. So what would happen is is if someone would come in for a tank, um they'd have to get a special use permit. The reason that was put in there originally historically goes back into the 70s. And so above ground storage tanks were banned across the board and they're still banned in the fire code. So you can't put an above ground storage tank in if you want to do it in those uses. Um that it requires a special use permit. And then that special use permit would then say if it's approved then goes into the fire code. So then it starts saying, okay, if you have X amount of quantity, you have to be separated from building egress points or openings and buildings and follow the fire code hazards material section that's that's laid out in there. So we'd have to follow that. That's where the code should be followed because this code didn't have all of the parameters and details necessary to to truly install it correctly.

No, the main reason I asked was just what Aaron supplied us. He had all that stuff crossed out but had no reason why. So the I'm I'm sorry where where exactly packet packet. Oh yeah, I just I just it was listed under the district regulations and I just moved it into the use table. So what what happened there, Chuck? Is there there was there was there was it was laid out in I know exactly what you're talking about because I did that striking. It was in each section the same verbiage just No, but it was combustible liquids. The definition, right? All of that was laid out in there multiple places. And what we did is we combined that into one one item to basically say if you want us pit tank

big paragraph is it was like class one or class 2 class 3A class 3B and that kind of stuff. It just in the definition I can understand why you're saying all the other ones but in the initial one it just didn't say why it was all marked out. It was that's all it's all held in a fire code. I know but I'm it's a comment to Aaron more than anything. Okay. I will I will mark I will provide clearer uh reasoning in the future. Thank you.

There was no reason given to us why that was all marked out. I understand what you're where you're coming from. And in a lot of those other paragraphs, yes, but it was like flammable liquids. You know, again, that whole section was all marked out, but there was no reason given by Aaron why any of that because all the other things that were marked out, there was commented on the side why all these things were were edited out and stuff. Those he did not supply us anything. So, it was it was really a comment to him. Good deal. More than anything. Thank you. I understand what you're where you're coming from. Totally.

Yeah. The only the only thing we may come back to at at some point is instead of a special use for specific uses as their maybe all uses and just make that very clean and simple that way if you want to put a tank in. Um, the tank actually came in from the oil crisis in the 70s and people were putting above ground tanks in their alleys and all over the place and buying bulk fuel and that was that was actually something the code had in it back in the 70s from from what I understand and been told. Um, so that's why that specific was was in there specifically. Any questions for Tim? So, we need a motion to make these changes. Is that correct?

Yeah. Re recommend these changes to go to council at the earliest. They'll um go to the May fourth. Thank you. The May 4th uh city council meeting. I presume legal will review all of this. Correct. He doesn't show. Sure. All right. Then if nobody has any questions, I would entertain a motion. So moved. Second. Motion made and seconded that we approve the fire code duplication code change recommendations submitted by the fire chief and Aaron. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Eyes have it. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks too. Thank you. Thank you chief again for for coming out. I really appreciate your support. Next item on the agenda is discussion item reference home occupation code changes.

Yes. So last month um you all heard a uh an application for a special use permit for a uh a homebased school and uh the action at last month's council meeting was to table that application uh to come back and research um as as staff you know kind of what are other cities doing um regarding home home occupations. and I I found out pretty quickly that um the the state has preempted us um in terms of what we can and cannot do um in regards to home occupations. So, um, in your packet, I I I included the the two relevant state laws, um, both passed in 2022. And essentially, it it's it splits homebased businesses into, uh, no impact homebased businesses and impact homebased businesses. And no impact homebased businesses, we cannot regulate from a planning perspective. Essentially, um, this number three here on screen, except as prescribed in subsection four of the section, a political subdivision, a city, shall not prohibit the operation of a no impact homebased businesses or otherwise require a person to apply for, register for, or obtain any permit, license, variance, or other type of prior approval from the city to operate a no impact homebased business. And when I was uh researching other cities who were dealing with this, frankly, they were not happy. their planning departments were not happy because this is taking away power from uh us as the city to you know be able to regulate and ensure that you know um you know homebased businesses are in order and uh you know they're doing the appropriate activities. Um the other thing to note about these um home these uh state laws is we currently have certain home occupations prohibited this uh state law. You know it says

number two here the activities of the business. So we cannot regulate what type of home uh occupation um uh you know occurs occurs in for homebased businesses. So, um, this is something I'm I'm working with with Mark with to, uh, get you, uh, some some recommendations to, uh, change the code as to, uh, you know, be compliant with these, uh, state laws if even if they are not exactly the the best. Um, so, and I I my goal is to have those to you all next month, but we'll see. So, what's the definition of a no impact

as opposed to an impact? Yeah. Um, there's there's really not a a spelled out definition, but you have to look. Uh, let's see. It is in here, but you got to hunt for it. And I'm doing that now. Um, it's under number three. It says uh for the purpose of this section, a homebased business qualifies as a no impact basis if and then it lists one two all the way down through G. There you go. So this this list on screen right here. Yeah. Right.

So and and for that reason um that's that's why the the the the applicants for the last special use permit are not back before you. Um, I mean, as as far as we we we don't know their specific, they I they they would qualify as a no impact home. Erin, am I missing something here? That if they're not required to apply for, register, obtain any permit, license, variance, or other type of prior approval, how would we even know whether or not a home? Okay. So anything through one through G on that page we wouldn't even know about anyway because correct they don't have if they if they Yeah. Correct. Correct.

So that's part of the problem with the state law. Correct. Correct. Yes. Yes. And frankly I've you know in researching this planning departments across the state expressed the same sentiment you you just expressed. Well, it was brought up at the last uh when she was here about if they're high school students, they'll have cars and that that's going to affect the parking and so would we not be able to do anything unless the locals complained the the pretty much the neighbors pretty much. Yeah, it's if they can't

I guess I guess one thing I I I failed to mention and this is this is key here um is that we can still enforce building code um and you know uh the nuisance as as well. So you know if neighbors have an issue or you know we have someone who who comes to us um like you know those the the applicants um from from last month they're still in contact with the city I should say but they're just not required to obtain a special use permit. Um, so they're they're in contact with um our our building department as to, you know, what requirements they are to meet to for their their Well, I know there are a lot of things that come up that um that with with the police that are incident driven.

Sure. That thing things are they not they're not looking for something to write a ticket, but if somebody has a complaint Absolutely. Okay. This isn't going to you you could still have a requirement. For example, Carolyn, and I'm just going to make up numbers, you could still have a requirement that if you're going to have a homebased occupation, you have to have so many off- streetet parking spaces because the the statute specifically says you can still regulate building codes, health and sanitation, transportation, traffic control. Solid has this way pollution and noise control. So, you can still regulate some things, but you can't just outright say you can't use this property for a home occupation.

But it's important for us to know that when she comes back. Well, she's not coming back to this board. That's true. She wouldn't come back. But how would she know that we have uh we require off- streetet parking? Well, that that would be a discussion with with staff when they, you know, come to us, you know, and we would we would enforce that. Yeah. They still have to get an occupancy permit. Okay, that's key. Okay, thank you, Mark. And this gets into the building codes. But if they didn't, they didn't what? How would we know if they even had a business going on in that house?

I I would assume if the problem was bad enough, you would find out from the neighbor pretty shortly. That's that's the change that this this state law does make. So, Chief, so there's a lot of homebased businesses that we see. Think think of it from a a daycare perspective. If you're under five kids, correct me if I'm wrong, Chad. For if you're that lesser related to you, or do I less less related to you?

Um, you know, there's lots of those around town. But when you get above that, you start getting into state licensing, and that's the same thing a school would have to do. And that's where we get pulled into it. Um, we don't actually do any inspections on daycarees. We forced the state fire marshall's office to do all that to stay out of it because they're reporting to division of child services. So that's just a way to keep our hands clean of it. Uh but but that's where you see there's a lot of home businesses if you look around the city. Uh contractors, carpenters, for example, they have them throughout the city. There's I have a business that I run out of my home from time to time. I do consulting. So there's there's home businesses everywhere. Uh but it's that impact piece of it is is that's the part that to address and how do you manage that school would be very interesting because you'd have to think the state would get very heavily involved in that. Um multiple departments within the state in fact and we would probably punt that off depending on what it is to the state fire marshall's office as well to try to keep ourselves like foster homes. We do not get involved in foster care either. We stay out of that.

Okay. So some something to something to look forward to. No no no recommendation at this time. Just wanted to discuss it with you all and say that you know this is what we found. So Aaron Erin the one question I have was item number one. It says the total number of employees and clients on site at one time does not exceed the occupancy limit for the residential dwelling. I mean for a given dwelling what is their maximum occupancy? I believe this is in the property maintenance code. Blake Blake explained. Let me see if I Hold on. I I might have I might have I had a presentation on this at one point in time. Um let me see if I can pull this up. Since there's anything else that we can't do on your end or

Yeah. Yeah. Um that they'll come back and know that there's a limit that they can um Chief, I don't want to put you on the spot, but do you know anything on the property maintenance code where might apply? I've I've got it here. Oh, okay. That's a great question. Um, there becomes an issue specifically on square footage and egress capabilities as well. Um, that's part of what the code is trying to address here is not exceeding the occupant limit of the building so that you have proper amount of egress. I understand. But that's what you know when it talks about the no impact, that's one of the items that they talk about there is.

So, it's I I got it. I got it on screen now. So, it's the occupant load is based on the size of your living room, dining room, and bedroom. And the square footage of those specific um rooms correlates to the amount of occupants that you are. And so, as long as they're aware of that and that is a pain to calculate because you're having to chunk insane. You got to chunk. Normally, you do a building like this, it's pretty easy to do occupant load. This is assembly. The rest is business. That is a gigantic pain.

Yeah. I found some I found some examples here and it's like the smallest bedroom. I I frankly this is a little bit above me. I I don't know if this is entirely clear but you know I I don't I frankly don't entirely understand this but um yeah it is it is it is a pain. It's a lot of math. It's a lot of separating things out and doing a lot of math and you're not it's not going to be honestly Chuck you're not going to get a lot of people. I mean, you're going to be pretty capped. Um, most of your kids' birthday party celebrations at your house, Christmas parties, you're probably exceeding the occupant load of

Yeah, I I understand that. But for the purpose of this, you know, when they're coming to the when they're coming to the city to sit there and and business, right? They're whether it's an impact or no impact, whatever, and stuff. And and you know, that's that's the thing. It's like since they're not going to be coming back before us, there's got to be means for something. Well, there well, there are means. We we we have adopted the property maintenance code and we utilize these calculations to determine whether it's an impact or no impact business.

The bedroom's going to be turned into an office space. So, you you can't use a bedroom calculation. It may be from a real estate perspective because it has a bedroom or a bedroom has a closet in it. That becomes a bedroom. You have a room with a closet. You can consider that a bed with an egress path. That's a that's a bedroom. But from a business perspective, whatever rooms get turned into the business use would then have to be calculated on that. And right, it's still a little bit 150 square foot per person. I think

if I'm right, Aaron, um the individual, assuming that they're we're doing this legally, we're doing it going the appropriate method, right? They're still going to need to submit their documentation to the building department. It's still going to meet their their normal plans and documentation that would go to the building department site plan review and all that stuff. Right. Correct.

So, at that point, their design professionals that are that are putting together their building plans for them would be identifying the occupant load. They'd be identifying any fire ratings that were required and all that stuff would be part of the the design professional's responsibility. when they put their documents together, right? Sure. That information should all be submitted to the building department, you know, as as part of that review process. I think only if there was any building modifications. Yes. That's what I'm saying. They're not if they're if they're just going in if they're Yeah. If they're not changing their building and if they're not We wouldn't know it was it would be happening.

It's no different. If they're changing the use, they should be they should be coming in for a permit. They're changing use. It's not that the state law prohibits us from doing that. Yeah. Yeah. If it depends if it's lived in, if it if the building's being lived in or being fully converted. So there's there's there's a balance there too. So if it's if it's a live-in situation, that's a home based business. Home based business. Yeah. So then you have to be living there. So then you have to start then it would be a modification of some sort because you're now you're a mixeduse. You're mixeduse building. But technically they should be coming in for a permit. I would agree with you and I would like for him to come in for a permit, but I'm telling you right now, catch the state law

says we we cannot require them to obtain a permit, license, variance, or other type of prior approval from a political subdivision to operate a no impact homebased business for no impact. Yes, impact you would. Yeah, no impact. There's there's a lot of those and and those are and as it should be, those are blind to the jurisdiction. Those should be operating without any if somebody's given piano lessons, you really shouldn't know that that's happening or tutoring or what have you. You really shouldn't know. And that's what this law is is basically saying. Well, true. But the the what they were coming back with, I mean, it was like they were planning on living in that house

and then having this school and it's like, you know, there's no limit to the number of students that they were going to be having and stuff. Not only is there a limit, there's also egress requirements. You can't have them come through the interior basement steps to get out of the basement. So there would be I understand that but if there again what this thing is saying it's like it's I don't think that would and correct me if I'm wrong Mark you're the attorney but that would I don't know if that would equivalent to being no impact type of occupancy. I I don't think so either. And I mean the code does specifically say as long as it doesn't exceed the occupancy limit. Well, how would you know that unless you did the inspection?

Unless you looked at the interior of the building and measured it. You wouldn't know. Or a design professional. you know, design professional should supply that. Okay. We educated ourselves. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. So, some something to look forward to.

Okay. Um, couple things else that I would like to add. Uh, I talked to Aaron. I was I was wanting to take a look at the comp plan on our website for the city and you had to dig to find it. it was buried under engineering and all different kinds of tabs. So, I suggested that we try to get that to the front page somewhere and city staff has made that happen. Uh, it's on the front page now.

If you haven't had the opportunity to look at that, please do because it's really pretty impressive what city staff is doing, keeping that current and to actually see what's going on with our comp plan currently. So, thank you Aaron for for pursuing that and getting getting that out in front of the public. Um, and then the other thing tonight is Carolyn's last night with us, right? Yes. I was the mayor called me and said my term was up and did I want to be reappointed and at my advanced age it's getting a little harder to get here. And um, you're only 65, right?

Yeah. Right. Oh, he's sweet. I like him. He's also on the library board person, too. So, I'm gonna keep him. Um, and I thought this was a good opportunity when a when your term expires is a good time rather than just disappear. and um and u I wanted to make sure I had the opportunity to thank you all because this is kind of out of my wheelhouse, but I've really learned so much from all of you and it's been an honor to to represent the city on the on this commission and serve with you guys. And uh not just because I'm the only woman, which I love, but uh that happens so seldom, you know, and uh but I really appreciate it. And it sounds like um you're going to get a good person to replace me and someone who will contri continue to contribute. And I want you to know that if you ever need, you know, any help with historic preservation, I'll be glad to hit him over the head.

And and thank you all very much, Carolyn. Thank you. THANK YOU. YOU KNOW HOW MANY YEARS IT'S BEEN? I don't know. Ask that question. I I know. Uh uh Sandy Lucy appointed me and um so that was a while ago. She was she was appointed in 2012. Yes. Well be Yeah. Well Well, no. No, she was earlier than that because because because ma my last term when I lost was 2012. So 2010. There you go.

Because I want you to know I appreciated the fact that her meetings were so much shorter than Mr. Shrapman's and uh that's when I was on the council and uh so I you know those were good days and uh and I was highly flattered that she thought I was able to to do this because um I just have a passion for the city and when I retired I've been so lucky that I've been able to stay involved because to me it's not something you walk away from very easily and Um, and I really appreciate that. And I'm still going to be at the library board, so I haven't disappeared yet, but um, I'm so grateful for this to be to extend beyond just being the library director to being part of the city government. And I was so happy that the taxes passed. I can't tell you because I had um I was here 30 years ago when that was all that came about. and all that is so important. And um I'm so proud of our community that they supported our our city taxes that support such important things with a capital improvement, which of course the library would not be what it is today without it, the police department, so many things. And also the transportation tax that is so good not to have to pay for the street in front of your house or the sidewalks and education. That speaks so highly of our public, our our our community, our the voters who support us support us and I'm so grateful for that. So I was glad to be still in a position where I could first thing I did when I moved was move my registration to vote so that I could you know be there and so thank you and I'll shut up but this

is great. Thank you. Thank you Carolyn. Um you have been just a fine fine example of volunteerism and that's that's who we are as a city and you represent the best of us. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you. And I'd also You won't find me at the fair, but you'll find me other places. And I'd like to uh also mention that your replacement is here tonight. Matt, if you want to stand up. Matt Coleman. Matt and I will miss next meeting because we're going to be in Marbach, but he'll be with us every every meeting after that. And you too, Chad. Sorry. We mean I have That's great. Well, I welcome you.

It's possible. I And the chair is warmed. That's great. You were talking about whacking somebody on the head. I hope that wasn't directed at me. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. Carolyn at the May 4th council meeting with their proclamation and everybody on the PNC board is welcome to attend. I'm I'm going to start a wallpaper. You know, I have the historic preservation, the library, the this this is good. I I appreciate that. It's unnecessary, but I appreciate it. Thank you. Any other comments or from commissioners?

Oh, if not, I'd entertain one last motion. I'll move we adjourn. Second. Motion made and seconded that we adjourn. All those in favor? I opposed. Eyes have it at 8:12. I'm going to take my name. Did it say you should take that with you? I put that in my closet so if I don't know who I am before I go in the day I go, "Oh, that's me." Well, I'm going to miss you. I'll see you at the library. I know. But now it's only going to be once a