Planning & Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

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Heat. Heat. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. All right, we'll uh call to order the um

April 22nd, 2026 planning and zoning board meeting. Uh Bobby, call the role. Rich Deli, Gigi Dbeck, here. Paul Fischer here. Robert Hartzell here. Tundra King here. Caller Coleman here. Fred Stacer here.

Okay. Mr. Dally's out tonight and we had we have no alternate for him. So, all right. And with that, the next item on our agenda is our traditional 30 second moment of silence. So, if you would uh everybody u be quiet for the next half minute. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. Uh, next item on the agenda is approval of the minutes of the March 25th meeting. Chair will entertain a motion.

I move to approve the minutes from the last meeting. Second. Have a motion and a second um for approval of the minutes. Do we have any questions on or adjustments to the minutes? Right. Seeing none, Bobby, call the role on um the minutes, please. Robert Hartzo, yes. Paul Fischer, yes. Gigi Dbeck, yes. Tundra King, yes. Carla Coleman, yes. Fred Stacer, yes. Thank you very much. Next item on the agenda is individuals testifying tonight need be placed under oath. So, at this time, if you would please stand, raise your right hand, and Bobby will swear you in. Thank you very much.

Do you swear or affirm that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you. All right. First item on the agenda is um 951 South Andrews Avenue. Um it's a major site plan PNC 25-124. 39. To refocus my there um and the address of course is 951 Southwest 12th Avenue. And Salo, you're presenting tonight. Go ahead, sir.

Um good afternoon chair and board members. My name is Saul Lumana, planner with development services. I'll be briefly presenting the major site plan application and Andrew Shine is here for the um applicants team. Okay. The site is located on Andrews Avenue between McNab Road and Racetrack Road or Third Street as you may know it. Uh the property currently has one existing building on the Oh, is everyone getting it? Great. I didn't know that. Sorry. Thank you. Um yeah, so the uh site is located on between and uh between Magnav Road and Racetrack Road. Uh the the property currently has one existing um building and um it has also right now being was used for outdoor storage of vehicles. Right now there's no more vehicles on site but there used to be um the outdoor storage of those vehicles there. Uh the proposed proposed scope of work includes uh two new warehouse buildings and upgrades to the existing building totaling approximately about 25,000 ft of warehouse storage and distribution uses. Um in addition, the applicant was granted a special exception approval for outdoor storage as a principal use um covering approximately 69,000 ft of outdoor um square outdoor storage um square feet. Um the special exception approval was granted as for a general industrial use. We didn't the applicant did not propose a specific uh material to be used. It is going to be general for future um pro um developers. Um but it it was approved with the condition that nothing can be stored there higher than the fencing in the front. Uh the site plan was reviewed by the DRC and meets all applicable site plan standards as detailed in the staff

report. um the AAC approved it um earlier this month. Um I will read the conditions of approval into the record but um on the next slide I will explain the conditions in relative to to the site plan. Um condition number one uh these special exception carry correlated conditions that were tied to the existing site. Um I will also let you know that the current owners are not were not the owners that caused all these issues. they took it over the site and are planning on fixing the site. I have spoken uh over the couple months uh with the new applicants that we're working through those code violations. A lot of them are related to unpermitted work that was done by the previous owners. Most of those uh code violations will go away with the proposed work now. Um and and I have in good faith have been working with them to close them out. Um so that's uh so that's actually condition number one. uh is related to the special exception approval conditions to close out all their code code cases. Uh condition number two, um the curving is already shown on the site plan. I'm just putting it onto the record because I want to make sure that it is implemented at the construction phase.

Mr. Chairman, would you ask staff to the conditions slide up again, please? Oh, sure. Thank you.

Thank you. Um and then condition number three, uh the site plan proposes a a chain link fence along the middle driveway. Um this does not meet the code because the outdoor storage standards require a fence to be uh masonary wall to be used for the screening of the outdoor storage. So in the front we're going uh we require them to change that from chain link to continue that to be a wall. Um so that's um and that's actually if I go back here, it's in the middle driveway. If you see it the entrance uh that's where the chain link is being proposed but we're saying that's going to be now masonary wall and then actually let me go back to the site plan again on the uh south side the side property line there is a chain link as there as well that's okay for interior sides but the code also does not like we don't the code does not pro um allowed for fence chain link fences to be visible from a major arterial roadway. So although technically it is on the side, we believe that if you're driving north on Andrews, you may be you may see it. So it is a condition that although it is allowed per code to be there, we just can't. We got to make sure that it's not visible. So either landscaping or some or it's push back or um some condition, they can keep the chain link, but it's not visible. And then um the other requirements are that they unify the property and it be platted. Those are pretty standard. And then condition number seven is pretty standard. The only one that I will I'm going to read into the record would be D. Um I do want their phototric plan to show me how uh to include the outdoor storage areas u just because the phototric plan did not include it. Even though I know it will be uh there will be light there. It just seems like it's going to be dark, but it's not. So I just want to see how that's going to be lit um during the the night. So now I'm just going to read them into the record. Number one, successfully satisfied all conditions of approval of the special exception development order PC 2617002.

Number two, provide continuous curving around all vehicle use areas to obstruct vehicular encroachment into the required landscaping around the entire site. Three, the proposed chain link fence along the middle driveway facing Andrews Avenue must be removed and replaced with a masonary wall as required by the type-C buffer standards. The proposed chain link fans along the interior side property line must not be visible from the interior roadway pursuant to code section 115 5302G1. Uh number five, prior to building permit approval, provide a recorded unit of title for the property. Number six, provide prior to building permit approval, the property shall be platted. And number seven, standards and conditions of approval. I will read uh number D. Provide a phototric plan that complies with code section 155.5401 general exterior lighting standards. The phototric plan shall include the outdoor storage areas. And I don't believe I said it, but uh staff recommends approval.

Thank you. Okay. Does anybody have any questions of Yes, Mrs. Coleman? Go ahead. Um, so you mentioned that nothing will be higher than the wall. Nothing that's stored be higher than the wall. Correct. Right now we don't know what. It could be pallets. It could be anything. Um, so the future tenant will not be able to store anything that is higher than the wall. How high is the wall? Right now it's 8 feet,

but there's a chain link fence along the side. So it just can't be higher than the eight feet. Oh, the screening. Yeah, the screening. Yeah, it can be higher than the eight feet. So, if they okay propose something that is higher than like than 10 feet, they will need to variance, which is not unusual, but we have uh seen that in the past if they want to put um commercial that 8t is in the code. Correct. Uh for industrial areas, they can go up to 10 feet.

Well, if if they've agreed not to put anything higher than the wall there, shouldn't that be a condition uh included? That's part of the outdoor storage standards in our code. So, if they were to come in with a uh sipline applica uh business application, we would require them to show us what they're screening and then we would require them at that time to um put that there. But that's already part of the code that they can't do that. That's why I was asking if it's part of the code and it's also already one of the conditions of the um special exception. So, it's it's already in there.

Thank you. Anybody else? Okay, Mr. Applicant, I think you're next. Mr. Shine. If you can't read it, I'll I can fix it maybe, but uh this will have to do for now. Uh good evening, chair, members of the board. Andrew Shine with Bills and Sunberg here representing the property owner.

Mr. Shine, your address, please. Uh address is 1450 Bickl Avenue, uh Miami, Florida 33133. It's my office address. I sir I live in Fort Lauderdale.

Um the property is here in the red. This is on Andrews Avenue or Southwest 12th Avenue and it's in a fairly industrial area. Um it's surrounded to the the south and north by industrial, to the west by industrial and the casino. Um you do have a residential far far to the east, but that's all the way across I95. So it's it's very far from here and it's it's situated in the heart of an industrial area. Uh this was the property when it was purchased by my client. Um I do want to note part of the the code violation issue. There are a lot of code violations on this site. Um as you can see even just from the aerial the site was a mess. It was it was dirty and things were done without permits. um instead of bringing the site fully up to code uh and then closing out all the permit violations my client had planned originally uh what they do in general is they buy rundown bad industrial sites, clean them up and then lease them out to tenants. Um so we weren't going to clean up the old code violations since we were just knocking down and redoing everything. Um but they will be closed a a after this. So, as you can see, the site was not uh it wasn't the the prettiest site. Uh it was used for automobile storage. Um landscaping around the site was was extremely minimal. Uh and it was just not not a clean site. And this is the new plan. So, beautiful new landscaping all around the site. Um there is a lot of asphalt, but it is an outdoor storage use, so that necessitates having asphalt. Um and then two uh buildings that are about 6,600 square ft. The buildings are 20 ft in height, measured by the city. Uh, and I'll skip to ahead. They are going to be beautiful buildings. Unfortunately, they probably won't be visible from the street. Um, but ultimately, they're going to be the the office uh and some warehousing functions of whoever comes in as the tenant. Uh, for the site plan access, it's provided off of off of 12th Avenue. The

main access to the north is it is a roadway, but it's a private road. Um, so we didn't have to do any of like the streetscape standards there just because it's a private driveway. Uh, but access is provided off of 12th. Um, traffic is very minimal here. We are platting this property. The plat has already been approved by the city and it's in the county's process now. And no offense to city of uh, PMPO Beach, but the county takes traffic on their roadways a lot more st like traffic counts a lot more strict than most cities do. Um, this I think I don't have the exact number. It created about 12 peak hour trips. Um, so it's it's a very low traffic driver for a site. Again, those are the buildings. Uh, history, it was approved, the special exception was approved in February. Uh, and then we received the AAC approval. I'm not going to go through all of the uh the requirements, but these are the zoning district standards in the I1 zoning district. We meet all of the requirements, all of the minimums. uh and we don't exceed any of the maximums. I will go outdoor storage as a principal use. All the the criteria are very brief. Um the first is that it must be enclosed with a wall and that the height of materials and equipment stored shall not exceed the height of the screening fencer wall. So this is the this is the code section. Um and we'll we'll comply with that and the future tenant will comply. Uh as to two, we provide all of the required buffers. Uh B has to be on a paved surface. We're providing that. Uh it has to avoid dust. We have a paved surface. Uh we're not pro proposing any covered outdoor storage right now. Um we're not proposing any flammable liquids or gases, but if we do and it exceeds this amount, it'll be placed underground. Um and lastly, again, they put it in here that it shall not be stored higher than the screening. So, we'll comply with that. Uh this is just an overall view showing

where the site is and that it's in an industrial area. Uh as for the tenant, I know this might be a question, so I'll address it now. We don't have a tenant selected. Uh this company who who purchased the property, they own a lot of industrial sites throughout the country, and they have a pretty large select of tenants that that like to use their sites once they're all cleaned up. Um we don't have one yet. uh it'll comply with the with the requirements since we do have our selection, but usually it's uh contractor shops and storing materials outside pallets and such. Sometimes it's a company like Caterpillar who has uh you know the the not the giant cranes but the smaller tractor type trailers who stores. So it would be something along the lines of that but we don't have a tenant yet. Uh when we do it it will they will comply with all the requirements. Um thank you here for any questions.

Okay. Thank you. Um before we go to to the rest of the uh board, you um your you or your client agreed to the seven conditions of staff? Yes. Okay. Thank you. All right. Questions of the applicant? Anybody? Okay. Anybody in the audience want to speak on this item? I did I did neglect to to introduce Katie Urena with uh with Keith and Associates who is here and uh who worked on the project as well. Oh,

okay. Thank you. Um okay, anybody? Nobody from the audience. So, I think we'll close the public hearing portion. And with that, the chair will entertain a motion on uh this item. Uh Mr. Chair. Yes, Mrs. Coleman.

Um okay. without my glasses. Um, in consideration of PNC application number 251200 039, I move that the board finds that competent and substantial evidence has been presented that satisfies the review criteria and approves major site plan uh with subject to the seven conditions provided by staff. We have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. Have a motion and a second. Are there any questions on the motion?

Seeing none. I'll be call the role on item number one, please. Carla Coleman, yes. Robert Hartzo, yes. Gigi Dbeck, yes. Paul Fischer, yes. Tandra King, yes. Fred Stacer, yes. Thank you very much to your client. All right,

next item on the agenda. Next item on the agenda, item number two, emergency operations center, PNZ 25-124041. Project location is 2121 Northwest 3rd Avenue. Lauren, we haven't seen you in a while. It has been a while. Yes. Okay. Well, you saved saved yourself for us. Thank you. Good to see you this evening. Go ahead.

Nice to see you. Good evening everyone. Chair, board members, Lauren Gratzer, development services. Um, this will be the EOC or the emergency operations center for the city of PPO Beach. Uh, so here's a general location of it. We are just south of Copen's Road. Um, it's south and east of the Porsche Mercedes-Benz dealership that's on the corner there. Um, and it will be located behind the existing fire station that's on Northwest Third Avenue. The site plan is proposing um to construct a new singlestory 35,652 square foot uh EOC and fire admin building. The building will be used as the headquarters for the emergency staff during any major events um such as hurricanes um to ensure that the city's prepared and available to respond once the event is over. When the emergency operation center is not activated, it'll serve as an office and meeting space for the fire department. The zoning is community facilities. The land use is commercial. Um, and this project was reviewed by the DRC in December of 2025 and March of 2026. Um, and the AAC approval was given a couple weeks ago in April. Let's see. Should the board found out the application has provided competent substantial evidence to satisfy the review standard for major site plan approval, the development services department recommends approval of the major site plan subject to the following comments and conditions. So number one, a platode amendment shall be approved prior to building permit approval to allow for the proposed administrative office. Number two, the standard utility easement form shall be provided at time of building permit for the construction of the drive aisle through the FPL easement through the center of the property. And number three is our standard conditions of approval prior to building permit. Um A, all sides shall

obtain their individual building permit. B the applicant shall provide evidence of compliance for the sustainability narrative. C plans are subject to compliance with all applicable code requirements um including all comments from the DRC. D. Landscape and irrigation plans must comply with all code requirements. Um, and E, a copy of the sub plan approved by BSO shall be submitted with department. That's all I have for you guys tonight. Um, this is an easy one. The applicant is here as well. Okay. Anybody have any questions of staff before we move to the applicant? All right. Seeing none,

we'll make the presentation. Good evening uh planning and zoning committee. Thank you for having us. My name is Mel Romantic. I'm with Solowski Romantic Sai who is now known as Stratus. We have changed our names recently. Um, we're delighted to continue our relationship with the city and help with this very critical uh facility for the city and make sure we provide the best environment for folks to take care of the community um when there's crisis. Um, the building uh like Lauren said is positioned immediately behind fire station 61. You see it on the right. Um, and we are basically just west of it, kind of nestled in an L-shaped site. There's a separate driveway that comes in for it which does not disrupt the services coming out of the fire station. We also have an emergency egress at the top site in case, god forbid, something is blocking that main entrance to the EO the fire administration EOC building that they can get relief and go out the back through the fire station entry point. Um, two separate structures. It's a very clean layout in the fact that they um Let me make sure I'm advancing. I think I'm going the wrong way. Do it on the computer.

The on button needs to be on. Okay. So, um, we have a nice circulation drive around the perimeter of the building so that fire trucks, um, and delivery trucks that bring things to the logistics portion of the building can easily navigate the site. This is the landscape plan that Katie and her crew put together. Um, we're nicely buffering ourselves from our neighbors to the north and to the west, which are some of the car dealerships that are immediately adjacent to us, and then to the south, which is a future site that will be developed at a later date. But we're providing all the landscape requirements necessary. Uh turn your head because north is now to the left. Um you see the visitor parking lot to the south. Um and that is unsecured parking. And then beyond that we have secured parking to make sure that the vehicles are safe and that nobody that doesn't need to be there isn't there. Um and we make sure we take care of it. The building itself is broken into three different pieces. What I've highlighted in red to the right is the fire administration portion of the building. In the center is the EOC and that's the main hub room with a lot of breakout spaces um that allow them to operate it and then dorm facilities for folks that may that need to spend the night or several nights, right? Because they're helping with the activities. And then the gray is the logistics portions of it. Logistics uh stores you name it, any material that is going out to the fire stations. It could be uniforms, it could be um hoses, it could be toilet paper for that matter, but they house everything and the drugs and the meds that go on the trucks. So, it's a vital portion of the fire uh at services that go out to the site. This is what it looks like from an aerial view. You can see that the two structures are connected both in color pallet, but in intention. The building itself is tilt wall construction to make sure that we're as safe as we possibly can and withstand all the winds that we need to do and a pre-cast concrete lid. Um, so we're going to make sure that

this is a great place for folks to be when the storms occurs. This is what the main entrance will look like and the access for ADA accessibility is immediately adjacent and then you can see the secured gate that leads you to the parking in the rear that is um, you know, under watch locking key. Um but then there's visitor lots for the folks that are coming daily uh for the init use of the fire administration, meeting with the plan reviewers, that type of thing. Um the secured gates, the access drive, this is the back end, which is the logistics side. We do have a loading a dock door so that deliveries can be taken into. And on the far right, you see the generator that supports the building, color elevations, and the color palette. And I'm just gonna I know you always don't care about the insight, but you might want to see it because it's a city facility. Um the public lobby, uh the reception desk, and there'll be some displays of fire uh memorabilia that the city has on hand, the EOC itself, the wall of monitors that keep the city moving and grooving, and the the bankets of computers that folks use to check statuses, do their work, and make sure that things get back up and operational as quickly as possible. This is a view from the front looking back. You can see all the breakout spaces for them to go into. Um this is one of the breakout rooms um which has connectivity so that we can collaborate and break out into smaller spaces when we need you know there's trees down on this street. You know we have the roads guys, the landscape guys and public works kind of all getting together to this is a larger breakout space when we have larger meetings that need to be part of that space their break room. um that this way because we're going to end up having to feed these folks um for days on end potentially. So, making sure they have a good environment to get refueled and re-energized to go back at it. And a fitness room is part of the program. Also, fitness on the regular basis for the fire folks that are on the

building, but also even stress relievers for the folks that are there for an activation on their downtime to kind of regroup. And this is the logistics little lobby and their entrance way. and then the works work areas for the fire uh administrative team. And that is the end of my show. We have reviewed uh the recommendations and have no issues with what's being provided. A little update, the plat amendment that's part of it is due to go to the county. You said late next week, the 12th. So, we should have that wrapped up by next the 12th of May. So, a couple weeks away. Couple weeks away. So, we're very close to getting that wrapped up.

All right. U one moment, Mr. Chair. Ma'am, would you just be able to give your office address, too, for the record? I'm so sorry. 1 800 Eller Drive, Sweet 500, Fort Lauderdale, 33316. Thank you very much. Thank you, Bobby. Okay. Anybody have any questions? Have a question? Yes, Mrs. Unfortunately, I've spent a lot of nights. you get you get the sure joy of hanging out, right? So, um I guess my question would be um this came up a few um days ago at one of the meetings I was at, but the on Third Avenue since that would be the only access

is to come in on Third Avenue. um some of the issues that we've been having on Third Avenue. Maybe it may go away when all the construction is complete, but the the big trucks bringing in the cars to the Porsche dealership and I would hate for us to have an emergency and now we have this area blocked. There's no other access to get into the property. So, obviously that's a grave concern of mine because we see it every day because my mom my mom lives in the neighborhood. Um that's one of my questions. I I guess I don't know any other way other than maybe contacting them. Yeah. To have them to understand the severity of that area being clear.

You know, god forbid we had an emergency. The other thing is um will you be tapped into the um B sheriff's office realtime camera system? I think that would be pivotal when in the event of emergency a lot of times people calling in looting and things like that so you can be right on the same page with the sheriff's office at your place. Yeah, we're working with the IT folks to make sure that we get all the connectivity that we need to make sure we can pull up that information. The beautiful part about that room too is that during activations, we should be able to pull all that same information up, but also it can be used for training rooms and other purposes when it's, you know, not hurricane season or not, you know, some crazy incident that's going on. So, the idea is it would be as fully connected as possible at this facility.

No, it wasn't included on the um on the STEP TED report, but that's is something I would love to see so that we're not guessing because I'm not going to see you anymore. So I I hope that would be something that you guys would definitely keep in mind and that we can have it done before we have an emergency. Understood. Thank you. We'll communicate that. Okay. Anybody else? Mrs. Coleman, just a estimate of when you think it'll be up and operating. Um we're trying to finish up the plans by this summer. Uh get it out to bid and get construction started hopefully by towards year end. And it should be about a yearong construction. So I would say by the end of 2027 we should see it. Thank you.

Anybody else? Um, anybody in the audience want to speak on this? Seeing none, we'll close the public portion of the I'm sorry, I have one other question. Oh, she thought one. Go ahead. Um, do we send out any notices to the residents in that area? Is there homes up in just south of there? I don't know. I'm sorry. This is going to be a huge property and when something happens there, it's going to be a lot of traffic there and I don't want people to find out the day of.

Max, can you come up to the microphone? One of the rare times I get to tell him to do. Sorry, there's there's nobody in here, so I was getting a little too comfortable. Um, Max Williams, principal planner and development services. This project was originally part of the geo bond issue. Um, so there was a lot of public involvement in that phase, although I don't believe it was always this location. So was there any public involvement for this location? Can um can he come up to the microphone and introduce himself? Sure. Hector Gandia, uh, project manager, engineering department. And Hector, were you sworn in? Yes, I was.

Okay. So, yeah. So, we like Max said, the uh this project originally was at another location and u we were going to do a parking garage and and a and a new building over at the public safety complex. So, we found that that area there was not conducive to what we were going to build. So, we found another property, which is the property we're currently dealing with, and that's where we're at now. We have not done an outreach for this current property.

I think we have to be fair and let the community know that remember you only have one access is Third Avenue. So, we have to let the residents in that neighborhood and that road is very small going down south on Third.

Um so, we must let the residents know. I I don't think anybody's going to be against of course having safety in our neighborhood, but I'm telling you it's it can be really really a huge project when people trucks coming in and out bringing food. I've seen it done in neighborhoods. So, wait a minute, I didn't sign on for this. So, I just think we should let kind of let people know because people have been asking me what's going back there, but I was quiet. Um what's going on in that in that area? So, people don't know and I think we we'd be remiss if we didn't I don't know send out something. I don't know how would we make it happen. Thank you, sir. Yeah, we'll Yeah, we'll do a pre-construction and and maybe a a brochure or something that says what's going on back there. We'll make it happen. Thank you,

Mr. Chair.

Yes. Um just just for the purposes of what Miss King has brought up, I know typically it's not done that way, but I think you would because of her concern, you may want to make that one of the conditions of this approval, particularly because There is nothing that's being said right now that has any sort of mandate to it or requirement even though the applicant has freely offered and volunteered to do it. Um knowing the kinds of discussions that could occur uh in this instance uh you may want to make it a condition um king to the overall approval. Would you um what do you think would be a reasonable type of are you thinking it should be a mailer or what are you thinking? What do you I mean and I'm just asking obviously I'm not

I mean I I guess my main concern is that the only place to access it there's probably going to be a lot of people coming off um 95 and maybe 15th place 15 court. Again there are a lot of homes in there. There's a park there. Um people just have to know that this project is going to potentially bring a lot of um traffic. I don't mean traffic, just cars driving, but traffic. It could be I' I've slept to the station for I think the longest nine or 10 days. So, that's a lot of traffic going in and out. But other people still have to go about their business, too. And now they don't know. And I I I believe you. But if it falls through the cracks, then the only way they'll find out is on the event of emergency and people just start coming. And I just don't think that's fair. So, I don't know. condition is

um so our typical notices for um like a reasonzoning or some project where they're changing the permissions of a property is a 500 foot mailer to from from the limits of the property. So not like the center but the actual perimeter of the property. We often get complaints that that's not enough but it's it's what's required for all other applications. Generally what happens is once those notices go out there's word of mouth in the community or through other apps like um neighbor what is it neighborly or nextdoor apps um that's that's generally how that information gets distributed in communities.

Um so just for consistency that's probably what I would recommend. Did we give the 500 foot notice for this one? Site plans. Site plans don't require notices. But this was properly noticed. What doesn't h There are no notices. We don't have advertised notice for site plans. No. No. Okay. That's why I'm bringing it up. So, I guess that's better than nothing. I mean, I guess it's a start to at least go with the 500 if that's the standard that we traditionally do. I mean, I guess we can go with that,

Mr. Chairman. But the city does have a uh newsletter that goes out to all its residents. Uh a little blurb in that newsletter that's received by anybody who signed up for email newsletters would probably be helpful as well. Just that kind of social media. Yeah, we can also put it on the website.

Okay. You know, we have a we have on our website we have um in our department we have list of projects and you can go to each project and see the status of that project and where it's going. We could also you know with this project also put it on the website and and make make the residents aware. Uh while you all are still thinking of this issue, I just want to remind you that there's nothing in writing and there's not been a mandate made by this board if it chooses to do so which the applicant can um accommodate.

If that's not done, then you're basically accepting the volunteered statements of the applicant, which is not a problem. I'm just making you aware. No, I think we're going to couch a couch a force. M Mr. Chairman, would you uh uh accept um um an eight a condition eight? It asks No, no. Fourth. I'm sorry. Wrong wrong wrong

wrong item. Um, a fourth condition that uh requests that the city uh notify through all appropriate means um uh area residents uh and nearby uh property owners uh of the status of this uh of the sighting and status of this project. I I think I'd like to just to take out any ambiguity, I'd say that's pretty ambiguous. the um the the posting on the website, the note newsletter, and then the 500 500 foot notice. Okay. I think let's do it that way because more specific. It is more specific. Yeah.

And and if you find some other way, good, too, you know, but but let's don't I don't want to leave it too ambiguous. I'd rather I'd rather make it that way. Are you good with that, Mrs. King? I am. Okay. After all, it was your was your Oh, it is your request. I I just didn't know how to word it. But No, no, no. But you're okay with the I would be the one getting the calls and Commissioner Perkins and I don't think she signed on for that. So again, I like to be more specific and then zone in on some of the things we put with the website and the 500 radius and what was the other one on the email? I mean on the website newsletter. Okay.

Okay. Is there you guys go with that too as a fourth condition? You can we can live with that or Yeah. I um I the only other thing I would like to recommend is prior to construction, we'll send that that all that information out if that's if that's okay. so that we can so that we can because we have to go through this process get it all approved and we have to make sure everything's approved instead of sending mailers out and if it doesn't get approved or something happens along the way right um I don't think you want to send the mail I don't think you that 500 foot mailing radius I don't think you want to do it until like when you're getting ready to start construction correct that's that I do it six months before that's what I wanted to convey I just wanted what was that piece of draft

we don't want to do it now we want to do it prior to construction I think we all agreed to that I Oh, absolutely. All right. As long as we're on the same page, like whenever like if he gets the per they get the permit or something or whatever. They need to we need to get it out during whatever. Okay. Well, we we'll leave that part to you guys, but yeah, don't don't do it six months ahead, please. That's a waste. Thank you. Okay. Um All right. And with that, does does anybody want to make motion? I started it. So, I guess I'll try and clean it up.

Go ahead, Mrs. King. Um, the board finds that uh competent and substantial evidence has been presented that satisfies the review criteria and improves a major site plan for PNZ251200 0 41 with the following for conditions by adding on condition number four to notify all appropriate um residents by posting on the website um newsletters and the 500t radius as um put in place by the city

prior to construction. Thank you. Okay, we have a motion. Do we have a second? I second it. Okay, we have a motion and a second. Are there any questions on the motion? Everybody comfortable with the condition. Okay, seeing none, Bobby, call the role on item number two, please. Tundra King, yes. Robert Hartzo, yes. Gigi Dbeck, yes. Paul Fiser, yes. Carla Coleman, yes. Fred Stacer, yes. Thank you very much. We love seeing these geo bond projects go. Almost almost done with them, aren't we?

Great interior, by the way. It's be it's very innovative. Please don't make me sleep there, huh? Okay. Yeah. There you go. You visit the people who have to work. Okay. All right. Um All right. With that, we're done with our regular agenda. Um next item on our agenda is audience to be heard. Anybody in the audience to speak tonight? Seeing none reports by staff have any staff reports tonight?

Hi. Um Max Williams, principal planner development services. Uh thank you for that. Lauren and I and many others in our department are on the emergency operations uh committees and so we'll very much appreciate those new accommodations. The current ones that just get a little a little cramped. So so this is definitely a good improvement. At the last PNZ meeting, we had a discussion following a mixeduse project about our mixeduse regulations, comparative regulations, and existing mixeduse projects. We compiled a list of sample mixeduse projects that are existing within the city. Um, their any active business tax receipts or the number of commercial spaces that they may have and just to look at how successful some of those mixeduse projects have been. Um, generally when I'm talking about a mixeduse project, I'm talking about a multifamily development where the residential is the primary character of the development and there's some groundf flooror commercial frontage. We don't have a tremendous amount. Um, and we have even fewer that are occupied. Um, the few that are occupied, um, I would say maybe the most successful one is probably the Oceanside Plaza. um at A1A and Atlantic. And I think that the reasons for that success are pretty obvious, mainly the location and also the the design and the visibility. Um one thing that I I did was I looked up what's generally described as uh as essential for these mixeduse projects. The um the market conditions is certainly the biggest one. Is there oversaturation of retail in a market? How many vacancies exist anyways? Um is the retail in an area that's already a retail node? Um and

then almost to a lesser extent is the design of the building. Um and more so than that is the access to parking. Um, so with the other projects, so one that really was appealing to me was the one on South Dixie that was recently approved. The Aviera East, I think is what we know it as. I don't know if that's actually the name of the development. Um, but they have groundf flooror commercial that faces Dixie and McNab Road. I believe that they have made a good faith effort to rent those bays to different commercial tenants, retail commercial tenants. They've had very few actually occupied. We've received several applications, but fewer than that have actually occupied their spaces. I think maybe a total of four where only one remains and it's a relatively new development, so no one has lasted their lease. Um, and that's been a coffee and sandwich shop, a boba shop, and a clothing store that never actually opened for business. Um, so obviously these are small businesses going into new commercial spaces. So I think one of the challenges there is also the rent. When it's a brand new commercial space that requires some buildout, there's there's a a high premium associated with that as well. The one space that remains I I sat with her for a while. Um it's uh um Kina Bella is the name of the business and it's sort of like um cruise wear or vacation wear. Um it's it's really lovely. The fabrics are all really nice. It's it's bright colors. Um so so please go and support that business should you choose to. Um, but she's struggling and

she doesn't know what to do and she wishes the other spaces would fill up. And so I've told our staff, expedite any applications you receive. Do whatever you can to get businesses in there. But if we're not getting applications or if they're never successfully moving in, what what can we do? On my visit there, I did notice that there was accessible parking. There was sufficient frontage, but the it's all passed by vehicle and you know, somebody sitting at the light might notice those spaces. Um, if they've been successfully built out, if they're well lit, if they have good signage, all of those are expenses. And the other thing that I noticed was that their glass is reflective. And I went and looked back at our our review and what did we approve there? And although we required light transmittance and transparency, we did not review for reflectance. Um, and it's very obvious when you're there that it's it regardless of the ability for the light to transmit, the reflectant factor of the glass really prohibits your ability to look into the storefronts. Now, that might be just a choice by the developer. While the majority are vacant or it could be a permanent condition of the glass, I believe it's a permanent condition. Um, so certainly that's something that we are now evaluating for new applications and something that we always thought we were aware of, but it wasn't it's not captured by our ordinance. Um, yeah. So that that that I I really feel for that business owner. Um I do believe that the uh real the operator of that site is seeking to fill those bays but I

don't believe that the market conditions are there nor the right um startups like a a new business is looking for a lowcost space with great visibility frontage in a area that people are already shopping. Um, so like it's it's a bit of a mismatch. Um, you know, what do we require first? The vacant commercial spaces and hope that eventually we create a node where they're now self-supporting or do we only require these commercial spaces where we already know that that commercial is viable. Um, you know, it's kind of hard to say. right now we require them anywhere that anybody's proposing mixed use taking advantage of our policies. Um so I looked at some of the other municipalities. I think we certainly have the most robust uh support for mixeduse development throughout our code in a variety of means whether it's in the overlay districts where it's um well supported. I I think that right now maybe in the downtown we don't have that nexus of news uses but certainly that that will come um along corridors I think it's that at prominent intersections that um u the accumulation of those uses might exist but along the corridor and the inbetweens maybe to a lesser extent but that's where we're seeing these projects and requiring the the uses such as the one that was on the last agenda. Um, Fort Lauderdale has a very clear section of their code where all of their mixeduse standards are in one section

that's different from the way our code exists. Um but theirs is purely focused on enforcement of the county's policies and not anything like what we discussed at the last meeting. The clear floor height, the transmittance of the glass um and the uh the parking is required but not a any kind of statement about the access to that parking. Um, I think our code already speaks to a lot of that, but what I think we should question is, are we requiring it too much? And where are we requiring it? Is it a disservice? This maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but is it a disservice to any future tenant in that space? um talking to these people, they felt like there was opportunity in seeing this empty commercial space, but now that they're getting no traffic, they're you know, what am I going to do and I just I feel bad for that. Um, but something has to come first, the commercial space, or do we just say it's not necessary to have commercial along the entirety of the corridor to support the residential that we're um generally only permitting because of the mixeduse activity. So, I I don't have a solution tonight. I didn't get to spend enough time on this as I would have liked. I unfortunately was out a lot of the last two weeks. I'm still recovering from a cold. Well, now it's just a sinus infection, so nothing nothing contagious. Um, but I I'll continue to look into this, continue to see what the best practices of. I mean, I started with the ULI. I looked at all kinds of technical advisory committee

results. Um, and then also the comparative municipalities. Um it's yeah

it seems like to me that what you're where you're the direction you're going is really precient and and it might be almost more national. I don't know that it's in the sense that I'm sure that people or entities like uli and have done studied over even the whole country and like where is where is it successful you know how close do you have to be to a pure commercial node or whatever that would be the direction it sounds like you're going in but it also seems like it makes a lot of sense to try to

those are the studies that I'm able to find. Yeah. Um nothing that says when commercial is required as part of a residential entitlement process, how should that be designed as a as a lesser feature of that development that still creates a successful space that that's a very difficult um you know I think no matter what it comes back to market driven right

opportunity Um, still I don't want to miss out on any future opportunity by not requiring those spaces where it may exist and then in the future we just have all of this uh apartments up and down our corridors with nothing, no commercial opportunities. Something that I did come across was the ability to create flexible spaces where it's designed to accommodate commercial space but perhaps in an interim it's something else and then in the future if it becomes viable to have it be a commercial space again it can be you know translated back into that but you know I generally when something's developed as something it is that until it's

you know this is Coleman you look like you wanted to say no I Let me make a couple of calls. See if there's anybody in ULI working on this right now.

Yep. I I think it could be interesting to require an applicant provided market study to exempt themselves from what our code already requires. That way we keep it as a requirement and if but we have to be very specific about the what the criteria for that study would be. Otherwise, no matter what, it's going to say it's not necessary if that's the developer's intent. Um, so I think it has to be something we need to be savvy enough to review and also something where we're very specific about the parameters. Yeah, maybe that's a recommendation from

No, I I I think it's really a good idea because us making people unsuccessful or having a bunch of as Robert said last time, if we have a bunch of empty commercial space because the guys just say it's a cost of doing business and I wanted my extra 12 units or whatever it is, right? You know, no new business is going to move into a mixeduse developments retail bay when we have other retail vacancies in more affordable products.

Yeah. And and particularly potentially real close to that area too because that's going to be the more expensive because it's brand new structurally. Yeah, I I think some people get the vision and they want to be in that type of development. This is certainly true for the Kabella um operator. Um but it's just not working in that location. Yeah. At this point in time. Yeah. I've got enough notes I can I'll make a couple of calls and just see what I can find out. Mr. Hartzel, go ahead.

I appreciate you looking into it. I mean, my comments last week were not to like a we we should not, you know, we should reduce the amount of mixeduse. I think what we're doing is the right thing. It's very forwardlooking and I think Pompo is, you know, Pompo Beach is a very forwardlooking. You guys are great planners and you look for what's going to what are we going to do in the 30-year planning horizon and I think mixed use will get used in that 30-year planning horizon. It's just that now I want to make, you know, I I'd like to see some of that mixeduse get eaten up now.

And I did, you know, since we met last week, I I drove around and I saw one sign on one building, maybe two that said for lease. The rest of them were actively trying to lease it. that that was another thing I attempted to uncover is the operator's intent to lease the spaces. Um the the spaces at at South Dixie, they have the now leasing all over the windows. Um in their leasing office, they were not very helpful. They were very focused on the residential component. Um but they said, "Oh, we'll give you the contact information for soand so." Couldn't find it. Oh, I'll email it to you. I haven't received it. So, um, that may just be their own disorganization. Um, also at the downtown PMPO apartments, I I did not believe that they were actively seeking that, but I went there and I spoke to um a bunch of people that I've never interacted with before, the leasing agents, um, as well as two of the tenants of their commercial bays. Um, and they do they do seem to be making an earnest effort, but when I asked them why what's taking so long, what are the challenges, the overall theme in well in that project was that there was insufficient parking and that at the time that the project was approved, the city and CRA was going to come and do public parking that would be an opportunity for the businesses in the area, you know, to expand or whatever. um that hasn't that the timeline hasn't kept with the need to fill these spaces. Um but you know regardless the the commercial spaces in that building are self-parked at a reduced rate. So it's just that the

tenants don't accept that reduced rate. So, you know, no restaurant is going to want to move into a space that although you have spaces reserved for my bay, it's just not enough for my use until such time that municipal parking is available. But by the same token, if you look at the new the the new public store on Atlantic that's now the old public store on Atlantic, the one just before you go over the bridge, built all that commercial out front, parking right behind it. Yep. And half of that is still not leased up, right? 10 years later. Right. And and I don't believe it's from lack of trying.

No, it's not. Um, I I have to think Publix is a fairly savvy real estate holder. Um, but also it does seem that some are not uh maybe aggressively advertising the space and and maybe it's because it just isn't filling up. Um, I was actually surprised to see at the Koi that they do have signs for their retail spaces. Um, but I I don't think that they've had calls, you know, to occupy. I don't even know where their spaces are. Yeah. 800 square feet. Okay. Well, yeah.

So, I I don't have any report or conclusions, but it is something that I'm looking into and we'll continue to explore. I I should say that in order for us to use the county's policies along the corridors, it requires the 50% of the ground floor facing the corridor. So, we don't have any out with that, but we certainly have a relationship with the county where we provide feedback and say, I mean, in the first round, we said this is too much commercial. Um, so I do think that there's a a opportunity for a dialogue there. Um but then we also have our own policies for the provision of flex for the provision of affordable housing and you know whatever what we have lots of different ways in which we're allocating requiring a commercial component.

Go ahead. I heard you mention the CRA. Um so uh there's there's not any of these properties that the CRA and some of those corridors can you know perhaps help with help with down payment or lower the monthly rate. is are we able to piggyback? Maybe that might spark people's interest to come and then people see oh this viable business let me put my clothing shop next to it because they're getting all this CRA traffic in here now I can and they can fill up that way is is that so option

two or three Thursdays ago when I did this drive around the city I I felt like I was becoming an advocate for these businesses and my last stop was the CRA office where I talked to them as well as the economic development manager and then ultimately our marketing director. Um they have in the past had um storefront beautifification interior buildout grants um that they do offer for new businesses within the CRA. Um, we have also in the past had a marketing program for new businesses that was award-winning but um, for whatever reason was cut from our budget in the last budget cycle and is no longer a program that we offer. Um, so those things, the grants from the CRA for the frontages, which could include a sign, it could include the windows, it could include the buildout on the interior. um as well as the advertising and the production of materials um through our marketing office I think are all great things that are rel well the grants is one thing but the marketing is a relatively lowcost um incentive that we could provide especially when we're requiring the commercial space. So to require that they provide it but then offer no support feels a bit um

genuous. Yeah. Yeah. Um so I'd love to explore those other options and as part of whatever recommendations we make perhaps this can be something that we recommend for the city's budget moving forward. Okay. Anybody else?

Thank you, Mr. Williams. That was very good. And I we look forward to and yeah don't I would much rather have something high quality that's months and months and months down the road. What you've done so far is was very good. I was surprised you were able to do as much as you did in the first month. So um but I do think this is a very important issue. I mean for us from a planning side and and long-term side and are we actually making the right you know decisions out there because we are trying we are relatively aggressive as a city goes in this area. I mean I think we're very forward looking and trying to be forward thinking. So

well a and I so I looked up the national average for um commercial space per capita and we exceed it. we're way over the commercial area per population. Um, so, you know, to aggressively require the space when we have potentially a glut of commercial space uh may may be a challenge and then certainly to then not support the activation of those spaces is uh a missed opportunity.

Yeah. Well, and and it probably would lean more towards if we were whatever if we were in a fast growth mode of hotels or something where you had, you know, vacationers coming in and we had a lot of in influx of people other than our residents, right, supporting it in certain areas that that could possibly work. I'm sorry, did I walk over? Were you gonna say no? Okay. Listening.

Yeah. So, but but I but I just I I appreciate the fact that you looked at that that percentage because I think it that also tells us something like you said. Uh maybe maybe we are on a slightly overaggressive path. Who knows? But but we're trying. But I and I appreciate the input. Sure. Yes. Heart silk, please. So on the mixed use only is it only retail or is there a possibility of having some office like a CPA office or like a professional office is included in the permissions like real estate and that type of stuff. Okay,

Mr. Chairman, I think there if we don't have some hard earned numbers on this and come to some agreement, we we run the risk of those developers putting in that space and looking at it as a cost of doing business, right? And with no real plans to fill up 800 square feet, they just take that cost and put it across the rents in the building. So, um I I know I wasn't here last month, but what a timely conversation. What a timely thing to bring up. We need to we need to figure out which direction we want to go in this

places like Winwood, an area frequent, and we bounce between the stores and visiting friends is everything's right there. the apartments are there and then you go downstairs there's small coffee shops and then you go next door there's Nordstrom's and it it works and I see people walking and moving and everybody's walking and moving and everything's right there and like I said we have our friends live right there and they just come right downstairs there's a barber shop and I'm like this is so ideal you once I park my car I stay there all day right and it's it it works

I mean I don't know how we get across this hurdle and I feel bad for that business owner my plaza was the very same way before we put our business And since our school has been there, I must admit the unhoused problem is nearly gone. It took some time and now new businesses are there and I'm glad to see them. And the plaza was almost empty except for a couple viable business. So it it does work. I don't know how you pull the trigger to make it all come together, but when it does, it works and it looks good. Right. Right. It looks good. So, I hope we can thank you for researching it, but I I definitely hope we can figure it out.

Okay. Anybody else? Did you guys have anything else, Max? Other than that, I know that was a that was a pretty big uh assignment that you took on there. Uh, no, that's all. Okay. Anybody else on staff? Bobby, no, you're good. All right. Uh, let's move down to board member discussion. Mr. Fisher. No report. Mrs. Coleman. Glad to be back. Missed you last month. Mrs. K. We missed you.

Um, I just want to say I attended the uh NO meeting for Northwest 15th Street and I guess a new project that they're having there. Um, some of the problems that we've complained about for years perhaps could get addressed through this project. I guess um some of the residents had a belly ache because I guess it's been in motion for some times but for some time but we not we weren't aware of it and often time was y'all heard me complain about the trucks 5,000 times um but they would just say it's county road. So um BSO was instrumental in kind of helping us to you know come up with a plan to uh cut down on the truck and the usage where they're not supposed to um come off Dixie road Dixie Highway and come down 15th Street. they still do, but it's not as bad. So, I think the project is um something that we're we're not opposed to, but I just think some of the residents just felt that for this to have been in motion for so long, they wish they would have been aware of it. I don't know if the if the um Fred, maybe you can help me. The 15th Street Dixie Highway um is that part of the Dixie Highway corridor? Does it go down that far north?

You mean what we're doing now? Yes. Um, I don't know the answer to that. Do Do we know how far north is the project that's on on Dixie Highway going? Is it Is it city? Oh, so it's all the way to sample then? Okay. So, it's all the way to sample. Okay. Because somebody actually brought that up. Would um would this new part, if this word all get passed, obviously has to come before the commission for approval. um then would you know this area look good and then Dixie wouldn't? So I think that answers my question that it's all going to kind of perhaps tie in together. I don't want to make an assumption but are you talking about the road improvements? Yes. On Dixie. I think she is.

Yes, I am.

Right now I I know that there are segments that are being handled through the GO bond uh process. And so it's my understanding that the funding that the cities received there there was a phase one which started uh south of Southwest 2nd and moved up to Atlantic. Now phase two went from Atlantic I believe to 10th. There is a third phase that may go a little further, but it's planned to go all the way up to sample, but because the funding is not in play, um I don't believe that they're on the cusp of concluding that only three phases at this point have been uh actually funded, okay? And they've actually gone out onto the roadway and you've seen some of the improvements um that have taken place. So the last funding I'm sorry I didn't follow this. The last funding takes us to to copens

I think it I believe it does but anything between copens and sample uh I'm not aware that funding has been provided to this date. Well I I think Mrs. King was more concerned past 15. Yes. Yeah. But but the I think the short answer is you were seeing them doing work you know up to Copen Copen is 23rd

right? So, I I mean I I think it made sense because people were like, "Well, what sense does it make to, you know, this is one of many concerns, but to um beautify our streets, to make some changes, hopefully to try to do some things to prohibit those trucks from coming out our streets. We've been I don't even want to say lucky because I don't believe in so much luck, but we've been very fortunate that no one has been injured from the trucks barreling down 15th Street and probably some other streets, but right now I'm talking about 15th Street every day." Um, so you know, obviously for aesthetics, we want to have this beautiful 15th Street and then we're just going on Dixie and it's just business as usual. So we would hope that it would flow with some of the new things and the new curbing and everything on Dixie that looks really nice that that would come down, you know, continue north on Dixie Highway and would just kind of tie into 15th Street to help with some of the things, beautifification, lighting, all the things that we're concerned with as well. So that was the only reason I asked. Yeah, these these projects aren't happening in coordination. The 15th Street is is being funded by the MO. Um and then of course Dixie is we're handling as our own project, but of course they'll be they'll tie in together. They'll look nice to it'll appear as if it was um co cohesive and and you know a well finished project in the end. Um, but I like like James said, I don't know what the timeline is, but that it is planned.

I um, Mrs. Kenwin, you did they have drawings of what they were planning on doing in terms of the street on 15th.

Yes, they had several renders. This is like the third meeting that I've attended. Um, and they did have drawings, but there were some things that were brought up in meeting one and two, and I don't know if they were just remiss, but they weren't including in the drawings on the meeting that um that we had on Tuesday night. So, they the some of the residents were asking they like to see some of the things that they we asked for in the first couple of meetings to then be included in the new rendering so we can get a good feel of how that looks. And um some people talked about maybe a possible roundabout, maybe some tables to slow down the speed and and ultimately to help with, you know, we understand the industrial part of our street because that's part of the street we can't move that, but when they begin to leave the industrial area and come into the neighborhoods is where a lot of problems lie. And so those were some of the things that it brought brought up, but I it's my understanding that they're going to come back with us with those new renderings to hopefully u include some of the things that we mentioned the other night.

Um, and is east of of uh 95 is uh 15th Street going to stay two-lane or is it going to become four lane? I think what they were trying to do was to incorporate some um major well turn lanes and to include um lane for bikes. Oh, okay. For the bike lanes. Yeah. If they get any federal funding, they have to do that. They're stuck, you know, just like if you look at Dixie Highway now, they have that what I don't they don't even call it a bike. What do they call those lanes now? They're like multi-use lanes.

Yeah. I have a Yeah. I have a project I'm working on in Vero Beach and and they have a multi-use lane that has got I don't know who's going to be on the bike except for maybe Lance Armstrong. They're so far out of town. I'm like, "Oh my god, what do they have this for?" You know, but it's it's where the federal It's electric scooters. It's electric. Yeah, I know. Everything goes in it. But it is those auxiliary lanes. It's a protected lane on Dixie now. You see that, right? Yes, I see that on Dixie. The protected lane is really important.

Yeah. So, that's like a big thing um at the federal level now. I I'm seeing constantly on these bigger projects, but I was just curious if if there's any chance of getting um an electronic copy of drawings somehow. I would be glad to review it and discuss it. I think it was supposed to I promise I won't do it somewhere else so Mr. Saunders doesn't get upset. No, no. I I believe that um Mr. Riddle who is the NO rep um will gladly provide any documentation that you okay you make a request. So if there's an ask by this board I'm pretty sure we can get that information to him.

I well I'll do that then can we do it officially from here then? You're saying we can ask for to send to send do you guys contact them or do you have in do you talk with does your staff the no. Yes. Yes. Yeah, we were. We had staff at the meeting on Tuesday night. So, if this board asks for um whatever the latest the materials, I believe we have them already. Oh, you do? I'll ask Bobby to distribute. Oh, okay. That would be If we don't, I'll get

Yeah. updated one because hope I hope they made some updates from Tuesday night's meeting. They they so I know that they had the initial input and that they knew that the materials that they were presenting were not consistent with that input. I think that what they unders I'm just interpreting here. I think what they understood the ask of the Tuesday night meeting was was to do another um public input session not a revision based on the already received input. I think they understood that not enough members of the public were aware, not that before the project should advance, changes are required, which is the message that they received on Tuesday night. So, I I don't know that they're actively making those revisions to the presentation materials, but obviously it'll be something that's incorporated to whatever their final product is. I'll I'll get the latest and ideally it's revised to reflect the comments.

Yeah, that would be great. And if if it's not, I'd rather have them sooner than later anyway. I I don't mind if they're whatever. I just like to get started. I don't because I am completely don't don't know and I can't help you if I don't know what it is. So I and I'd be love to, you know, try to help you on that. Okay. Thanks, Max. Sure. Okay. Mr. Hartzell, are you done? Mr. Hartzell, you're next. I said a couple things. Um just that you know this is the only time we have to talk amongst ourselves.

Um when the issues arise during the hearings for site plans I think of things that we should probably discuss. So the one was the the notice issues. So there there is no requirement for them to advertise in a newspaper or anything for a site plan. So nobody would really know that like hey unless you were reading every agenda they wouldn't know to show up here for a site plan.

But remember that prior to the site plan there are other notices that are going out in other fashions. Uh other applications that are coming through the um development services are being advertised prior to coming before this board and other boards. So there there is advertisement but not for that application. Okay. I just I mean to me it seems odd that we have a quasi judicial hearing without a notice to the public that it's occurring. I mean it's wouldn't be our obligation. It would be the applicant's obligation if that were the policy. But we don't make policy. So

I I know that in our code there are specific this is before specific applications that require a certain amount of notice to be made. Um again without going through each one of those and how each applicant um would take advantage of that I can't tell you. But I do understand what what you and others have said over the time that you know the site plan seems to be a very critical point that you would think notice would be necessary but again and I don't want to do all the talking since we have representatives from the department here but I think that there are other applications that precede that that are also going to be opportunities for the public to be aware of a particular development in their area. And then the other issue that I saw was the industrial application that in an industrial area I saw it was like 8 feet. A tractor trailer is more than 8 feet. A container is more than 8 feet or 10 feet. You know, it almost seems like our our standard for industrial is so tight for you know, you had it was the applicant that was talking about that like a crane or I think it was uh maybe staff that was saying, "Oh, we wouldn't put cranes there. We just put Bobcats." But that's not in an industrial area. It would seem that you would have things in an industrial area like tank towers and that type of stuff that would be way higher than 10 feet and that's where that stuff belongs. not in a commercial area but in the industrial area. And it just seems like, you know, again, we don't make policy, but it's something for us to discuss. We are an advisory board that maybe maybe that height limit is too

too low.

So, we have two different industrial zoning districts, the I1 and I1X. I1X is generally considered to be the more um like heavy manufacturing, anything that requires outdoor actual outdoor business activity. Um and the storage of things like tanks or uh I mean not not tanks necessarily, but like uh bobcats or construction material and those types of heavy equipment. Those are actually different classification in our code. Outdoor storage is really intended for finished products and goods that are intended to be distributed. So it's not like um I mean or even like waste related materials that that's another different classification in our code. So it's it's only these use these this type of business activity where they would be permitted under outdoor storage where it's not an intensive industrial use or something with heavy equipment where they would be permitted on that particular site and whatever the material is that they're storing outside. It cannot exceed the height of the of the wall that they have. They chose an 8-ft wall where a 10-ft wall was permitted. Um, so they're clearly okay with it.

I just was going through my head looking at the site plan was all that outdoor storage. So vehicles don't So we have a different category for Right. No, we have a different category for um uh like a junk or salvage yard. We have a different category for that would be like waste related materials, recycling plants.

Yeah. Right. Um so they've they've changed their use now and so the material that's going to be stored is is nothing like what was ever there in the first place or like the kind of the worst case scenario that you may not worst case but more intense scenario that you may be imagining. And I think we have there are there is a at least one recycling plant that has like netting above a certain time. It was a big you know

and it's I it's I1X too. I mean it's it's in an area where there's basically nothing but these recycling plants and very aggressive uses. And it's not anywhere where the public other than accidentally turning down one of those streets or being near a place where we put homeless home people. Um it it's not close to anything where people live or would even see. And and so I think that that use that's going to be on Andrew's extension or whatever the avenue is

is not going to be something that's going to be anywhere near that aggressive. It's something that's hidden. I was just, you know, I was thinking whether it's the the most efficient use of that industrial limited industrial lands that we already have where container itself is over 10 ft. So if they're they're doing outdoor storage, which they are, it would seem that I know these are probably buffer areas where we're trying to come out of a heavy industrial or recycling is probably the most intense and then it's in like a centralized area. And then as we back out of that, we're buffering it down or birthday cake, wedding cake in it, but into this lighter industrial. But still, I think, you know, I just personally in my planning experience that 10 feet seems a little low for some sort of outdoor storage. So in the in the Iwin district where that's generally what's possible for any outdoor storage. Um if that's not feasible then we've I mean successfully required that that activity now be conducted indoors. So they'll construct a warehouse to house whatever that larger material within an I1X dis I'm sorry I district uh may be.

Mr. Chair, go ahead. Isn't it true that a lot of especially those major quarters it's almost industrial parks I mean really nice looking indust it's an industrial use but it is a um a very goodlooking building. I was surprised to see on Andrew's extension you know a storage facility to go in. You know, that's usually the nicer industrial buildings that we have are along corridors like that. And especially since he's got so much land. Yeah.

Look, if he's a land owner, this is what he wants to do with it, fine. But it's not the best and highest use of that industrial property, I don't think. Uh but if it's one that if he can live within the rules and he's got the he wants to develop what is that and can find a tenant, we can't get into market decisions.

Well, and I think the other thing is that property is pretty big relative to there's three building. There's going to be three buildings on it. And so to some extent using the buildings as a buffer, you know, if you store behind the building and it's buffered or you store it like in between two buildings or something, then it becomes buffered to some extent. You know, that's that's what I wouldn't surprise me if they went and built another building and had stuff in the middle. We we have I think we've done a reasonably good job of of trying to do that and we did containment of like in these like out at uh live resort where we have that industrial all those all the all the tractor trailers are inside hidden by the buildings not by the walls they're certainly taller than the walls but the walls aren't what's buffering you know those tractor trailers and stuff and they're probably when those big buildings get built, you're going to have 40, 50 tractor trailers in in that corridor and the only where you're going to see them is in one location on the ends, you know. So, I I they do a lot. I mean, I don't know if you're thinking we should allow are you thinking we should allow for taller walls or I mean, because they're doing it by special exception or or by variance. very

um in the I1 the outdoor storage is a special exception approval. It's a the ZBA. So So just by that mere fact, it's almost like they go through almost like a site plan approval at ZBA in the sense that they got to figure out how does how do how does that fit into the parameters of that code and stuff? Yeah, my thoughts were just that it's it could be more efficient if you know even with a 10ft wall if they exceed it you know shall not exceed a 10-ft wall by more than 3 feet or something like that which would be a standard container but

you're yeah the problem is you're getting into you know I I think I think the way the code's written even if you allowed for taller walls if you wanted to argue that that would be one thing But I think you got to restrict it at the height of that. We have places where people are not complying and and a typical example of that is a place where you probably have 10 foot walls and and so equipment is supposed to be down all the time. So you go you go into a yard I can almost guarantee you you go into a yard where at 9:00 in the morning where they have 10 or 12 or 15 personnel lifts. I guarantee you there's some that are up over the top of that. They they start setting them up because they're moving stuff around and they do that because logistically they have to have those out of the way so they can drive past it and circulate and whatever, you know. So, it's going to I would I I don't know. I mean, if you if you want to argue the the taller wall, that would be one thing. Um, but I would not give up on the height. I mean, I trying to say that you can go higher than the wall is I don't think that's a good idea. I think it's impossible to it would be very difficult to enforce,

but that's just me. Well, that's why I brought it up so we can have this discussion. Sure. The uh Yeah, I'm done nerding out on the planning stuff. You're done? That's all I got? Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. I give up, Fred. You gave up. You don't have to give up. But anyway, Mrs. Steback, go ahead. Do you have anything? I think I'm good. I think I heard a lot. Okay. Okay. You didn't want to wade wade into the middle of that, huh? Okay. Um, I don't think I have anything tonight. So, that's hard to believe, is it? So, with that, wait. Oh, you want me to unadjourn?

I don't have an unadjourn button. I don't think Richard recorded one. Um, did you want me to open it back up? Is this a discussion? No, it it it's not a discussion. There was um I I thought I saw an email or something that there is a um a voluntary board lunchon or something coming up. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Did you get a You didn't get Yeah. Yes. I sent an email out this morning. It's April 30th at 12. First Thursday at at the Larkin Center. Larkin Center at 12 noon. You usually announce that. So, okay. I thought you were gonna hit Well, I'll go ahead and announce it. You know, I I don't even care about the button, you know. Then we hit the button.

You want me to hit the button again? It was premature. You You've been around your daughters too much or something. You've lost control, son. Okay, we're we're done.