Westminster Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Hello everybody. Good evening. We're with the City of Westminster Historic District Commission. And tonight is Wednesday, July 2nd at 6:00 p.m. We are at Emerald Hill at the um city hall offices. And I want to start by calling us all to order with our statement of authority. The Westminster Historic District Commission derives its authority from chapter 164 article 9 of 9A. However, of the city code which authorized by Maryland's code annotated land use article division one single jurisdiction plan against zoning title 8 historic preservation. The qualifications of the Westminster city historic district commission are on file at the city administration building at 45 West Main Street and the file is open to the public. And I'd like a quick roll call of the books we have here. Kathy Brady Christy McMasters chair Grace Kelly thank you and to the far Mark the director of community planning development Melissa Thorne economic development coordinator thank you all right let's begin with talking a little bit about our minutes did I hope everybody had a chance to look them over and kudos to whoever got them out within a month What y'all think? Oh, you weren't here. I didn't see any. So, we would like to make a motion. Uh, I move that we accept the minutes as presented. Have a second. Thank you. I realize you guys, neither of you were here, but we didn't hear anything from Chris. I looked him over. You looked him over. Okay. Well, um, let's take a vote. Are we all in favor of accepting the minutes as presented? I thank you. Then they're accepted.

Thank you, Melissa. The good thing is there's also a tape that follows up. So, we have it on tape. All right. Next, let's start with some new business. And we have item B at 174 East Main Street. And um what we usually do is we have city staff make the presentation of what's coming before the historic district. So Miss Thorn, would you like to make a presentation? I would sure would love to. Um we have a PowerPoint presentation tonight. We don't have a staff report. Oh, I'm smiling at director. Um that would have been mine mine to take, but I think this is friendly. So, here we have uh 174 East Main Street with there. Okay. Why is it not advancing? There we go. The location of the project um is at the almost the corner of Center Street and Main Street next to Starland Bakery. And uh just a timeline of this, we received a demolition permit request um from for the second floor rear edition and the landing with steps January 10th of this year. Uh I was out there visiting with Jared McMasters on a site visit on uh February the 4th and we received a documentation for the historic structures report June 9th and then an update in response to comments on June 28th of last week. Um, so the and then I have elevations to go into, but wanted to request that the commission offer comment on the historic structures report and if possible to recommend accepting the report. Um, if you have any questions, the applicant is here in the front row. Um, and you could certainly ask us as well. Great.

So, um, this is advisory, right? you make advice to Department of Planning and um just from my personal observation, I'm I'm really stunned. What company did this or was this a group effort? Oh, the the like whole thing. Oh, this is me and my dad. Wow. I am so impressed. You really chewed through all the research, every deed. I thought this was really good and I know we had some pretty extensive comments on your escape structures report. Um, and I appreciate you jumping on those. Did you find them to owner us? No, not at all. It maybe took an hour, but it was bad at all. Oh man, I need to hire you out to the rest of the city to open a business. You did a very good job. So, um I think I got my questions answered by the response um to the questions. Does anyone else on the board have any other um concerns? And essentially, this is a back porch. I guess the question is, are you going to just rip it off or what are you planning on doing with the back porch? Um, okay. So, the back porch was it I have a picture up here on the if this helps. That does help. It really looks pretty integral to the building and until you start ripping stuff up, you don't know how integrated it really is. We do. We do. Okay. Because our contract, so this is added, this is not original to the building. The back, this is what we're planning on doing. The backboard shuts in now is not original to the building. and how it is now. It's

not structurally sound any like it's not it's kind of like a little iffy. Um, so the plan is obviously not get rid of it, but kind of make it, you know, a little bit better, but it needs to for as far as safety standards and everything goes, it should come down, but it's not it's not original to the actual structure itself, right? So, um, there are a couple of things I will ask you to do, and I know staff hates it when I ask people to do this, but as you're pulling off some of the materials, can you be doing a record of what's really under this siding, cuz I couldn't see. Okay. And I had a tough time just from the street, you know, deciding how much original fabric might or might not be there. And although I recognize you're saying it's not original to the building, um I I understand that, but I can't see that. Okay. You know what I mean? It's kind of like a belief that it's not original, but I can't see it. And unless you start really ripping apart that external siding, it's hard to tell. In my own home, when it was time for that external siding to be replaced, we ripped it off and we could see the original porch. And we could even see on the brick of the sides of the walls where the paint had gone over the railings and some of the railings were still left and they just built around it. So you never know how much fabric is still there. Rip off the siding and take a look under the hood essentially. So from my point of view that would be really important for this. Okay. And I'm I hate to say this. And you're going to sort of be a scance because almost always these buildings that had porches had sleeping porches and they were original to the building. So the vinyl siding or metal sliding that you have,

no, of course that was not. But what's underneath it was probably original and especially be interesting to see like how the floor is tilted because the floors are always severely tilted so water doesn't pull. That's an original thing that happens with all porches until they're ADA squared up again and then they'd be out every 10 years because they're exposed to the elements. So, um it would be interesting to see that original Fitch. Nine times out of 10, people just simply filled them so that they got like a sloping fill, right? My back porch, so it was a little less treacherous. We just put a triangular pieces in, put a wood deck, you know, so it's still drain, but that the must still tilt, right? And um you know, people weren't meant for traping around. There were no wheelchairs. So it wasn't like um that kind of steep pitch bothered anybody. That was original. That was meant to be that was over. So, as you strip away, if you could record some of that, you know, if that's even I mean, I think that would be important to put to our helpful to see, right? The thing I noticed wasn't included was actual report from the contractor. What are his qualifications and what exactly did he say about it? And a lot of contractors, you know, we're taking all the fastest people can do is rip it off and rebuild rather than preserving what's there. Yeah, that's not pretty. I promise you that. Um, all of his stuff. We put all his qualifications in there. We did a walk through um with him. He's I don't really know all the technical contracting terms that he used um but

page three references the contract the contact information. Yeah. Um it doesn't say whether he's a an actual engineer. Engineer. Yeah. Engineer. Architect. Architect. No, he is a contractor, but he does stuff with um he's been through this entire process. He does Yeah. What he's doing be good to know to make sure that you know some of the contractors are great. Some of them are not quite so great. Trust me, I don't. So, we'd love to know that that you got one of the great ones. He's a gem. Love him. And you know, maybe you could forward his if you got his report, you forward it to Melissa. It could be an addendum to the report. Okay. And that way you've documented its existing condition before it comes down. That all right. So as far as internal stuff, we usually are pretty silent about that. How you arrange your rooms, you know, kind of flooring, what kind of paint you use. Um we're usually pretty quiet. We just we just make the suggestion that you do the best you can to save original woodwork, original doors. And I saw a lot of original stairway that is safe. That is not that is the stuff you can't really that is that stairwell, the wooden one with all the innate work going up to the second floor. that is say 110% that is next. Trying to um revive original flooring is tricky business. A lot of people look at original woodwork flooring and say, "Oh, that's what I want." Um usually was

covered up for a reason. And I know in my own home, I'll give you a horror story. I un undid the wood floor to my kitchen was all tongue and groove all original and my first thought was let's have this refinished which we did and in the refinishing it had been refinished previously one time too many and in our time much of that tongue and groove had been refinished off so that when you stepped on the crease the heel of a friend of mine went right through the floor and so that floor literally worn out and as much as I wanted to save it was unsavable because it had literally been refinished off. Yeah. Um you can't always say that stuff and I would put in a fortune refinishing it only to find that it had been refinished right off. So, you know, do what else you can with keeping what you got. Yeah. because it's never going to come back original. No matter how hard you try, it's never going to look as good as they I call it originate. eight years ago. I want to see the first floor of Yeah. floor.

My house underneath my flooring. It's a painted floor, which is which was actually kind of cool back in the 1800s. People would had painted floors, but they did wear off. And then another layer was put on of a little nicer maple wood. And that was done in the um about 1941. And how did I know it's because they used newspaper between the floors to soften the creeks. So I have an entire layer of newspaper under my floors. dating what happened. But um so I couldn't go back to the originals and the ones I have now are so I like just I had those refinished. All right. Do we have any other questions for this um person? So we're just reviewing the demolition. Yes. Yes. They haven't come to us asking for a tax credit which they could. I don't know if you knew about tax credits, but we have a one-page application for a 10% tax credit to help make your building feasible and have some life to it. And Melissa's actually the gatekeeper for that 10% tax credit. Just so you know, whatever we would allow for that 10%. There is also a 20% tax credit from the state. Their application is more like four pages and they are the gatekeepers for a federal tax credit if it's commercial. So you could get up to 50% off your project if you fill out some paperwork and we'll even help you. Um we're available for technical assistance. This is all for contracted work. However, if you're putting in sweat equity, but materials certainly do your management of the project. You can't

take that off. But whatever you contract out or whatever you pay cash money for, you have to have a receipt basically. And if it's pre-approved, it can't come back to us afterwards if it's preapproved. Then you can get up to 10% off through your tax system, right Melissa? Right. So the municipal and that was one of the papers that you received when you guys came in with your Okay. So happy to resend that to you or get it. Um I so tonight we do want a recommendation on the structures report but since we do have the architecture here if you would like to provide comment on it if they don't come before tax credits please do. Is that included in the package? It is yes to say this but there's a separate paper for that. Oh, so up on the screen I have the front elevations, the rear elevations, and the proposed side elevations. So, are those um balconies maybe functional or real? The balconies? Yes. Do you have a reason to believe there were balconies there? That is completely Frank. This is my dad's project. I am the representative of LRC properties. So as far as that, I don't know. That's pretty extensive changes to the look of the building. Well, and to be perfectly frank, it just doesn't really fit with the building style. Just too angular. Looks like 1960s.

I used to get my taxes done. I would also say the windows, the the single ping with the bottom sash doesn't really feel the same as the rest of the historic district. If you look at the building, not the one on the corner, not Starlings, but the one to the other side of you and see those windows that are multi-pane hair salon. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's more of like what you would see in most of the buildings in the historic district. These are very modern looking windows. I don't I assume they're going to be aluminum frames. They Let's see if they might have written down. Um, that's just kind of, you know, what most people are doing. The windows are vinyl, wood, fire. That's all. Okay. Wood clad. That's a good step. It's just going to choke on vinyl. It's also There's no front door. The building looks a little strange. So it was a this was a um free sketch. I don't think this is the final one. This was included just to give you guys like a rough idea. This is not a you got this really big stone foundation which is really very cool but it leads nowhere. Kind of like there's no entrance to the building. There is an entrance on this on the side. Right. That's a windy but it doesn't doesn't translate the different view. Yeah, I think they were all in agricult. [Laughter]

It's a reverse escape room. So, um the window of pains are something to to consider if you want to really be in sympathy with the rest of the community. Um, also the guttering, you want to be in sympathy with the rest of the historic district, you'd be using half moons rather than the K square. Okay. I can't see what kind of guttering because this doesn't look like it addresses that. And then lastly, I recognize this is a preliminary rendering, but the stones would be a whole lot bigger. These are actually a stone for road sides. So you would use a larger stone to make it even faux. I guess they call that stick but big slabs of a stone. So you want a larger stone pen. Do you know is there a stone foundation behind the the current brick facade? There is. Okay. So, you really just have to remove that saw to to reveal it. No foundation. Hopefully, it's in good enough shape. Yeah. Hopefully, maybe they can just leave it alone. That's just a depiction rather than a plan. The stone foundation. Well, it it does. Yeah. Yeah. You won't know till you get behind that brick and see what surprises are waiting for you. Right. And then lastly, I know this is in black and white, but um that black window look and door finishes that is so modern looking. It screams old building trying to look and fresh. Um please don't do that. The only other building I can think of that went through and did that, they put that black No, I can think of two historic structures downtown that did that. They just scream we were a halt, you know,

and someone with some techy taste came in and did this. That's just something that doesn't. And probably the dog railings, too. You should avoid black metal railings. There's another building has got black metal railings and the black trim. And it all just screams this was remodeled. But those are all advisory, right? And did you hear all that? I said that the commission commented on the architecture approximately at 6:22. So I'm going to go back in and short a lot of commentary but also you can Okay. this one, right? If that makes sense. Yes, it does. Make that she's very in. But in college, I was on the cow county board with you even unless you got approval. Right. So you can do whatever but what do you manually this is just a recipe of being a good citizen with the rest of them start to not stick out and have people go to go who did that [Music] uh any other comments from our mission Mark, do you think you understand what we were saying? I absolutely do. Yeah.

So, thank you very much. We leave it with our director of planning at this point. What What are you proposing to do in the building? Is it for apartments? Is it commercial? So, it's both actually. So, first main floor is going to is a commercial space. That's commercial use. And then the second floor and then the third floor/addic kind of space um is that's residential. So both pretty much what it probably always was. Yes, that's what it probably that's I do know because my grandfather had it really way back when in the 70s. 70s. Was he a doctor? He was. Oh, I went to your grandmother once or something. It's a small town. Very small town. You would know about those two apartments. You would have to get allocation for water. You have water on first floor. But if you make them a totally different process. Yeah, we were starting to do that. And there's a simplified site plan and modern application application. Yeah. Thank you. Engineer to do that. We said 30 to 60 I think. So we'll be getting shortly. Yeah. Have we g examples? It's not overly complicated. I want to spend four or five planets. I did give them I did give them one example, but I can always send out more. I think the one's good. We talked. Yeah. Right. Thanks. Typically, you do a formal notion for the historic structures report if you're ready to do that. Sure. So, we should be entertaining an acceptance of this

historic structures report. And um I'll entertain motion to that. I make a motion. That's how big this one to accept the report as written. Do I have a second? Sorry. Any further discussion? We did have a lot of questions, but Okay. And the last thing we will ask for that documentation. Yeah. If you receive the permit from the city, right? All right. So, hearing no other um concerns about the actual submitted report. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Good. I think I heard a late I. So, that's been accepted. We got that accepted. Thank you, Mark. Great. Thank you. All right. We can move on to item C, 219 East Main Street. Miss Thor, would you like to make your presentation? Sure would. Thank you. All right. So, here we have a picture of 219 East Main Street. Um, location is just west of R Street. And as you can see the yellow dot in back uh towards the rear of the building. So a demolition permit was received requesting the existing clear porch demolition on May 6 and then a site visit from the chair Chris McMasters and myself occurred on May 23rd of this year. Historic structures report was received June 2nd and oh this is not true. We maybe at some point I also got plans and that date is not reflected correctly here. Um but we have also pictures similarly to the first

presentation of proposed elevations for a replacement of the porch. Um so if you would like to again provide a comment on the historic structures report, we have the owner Mike Braer here tonight to help help us in this. Yes. Great. So, you're essentially a a neighbor of mine practically. Oh, really? Yeah, I was a little walk over for that particular meeting. Okay, great. Um, so who who prepared this for you? I did. Did you get the recommendation of what a good structures report looks like from Meliss? Yeah. Okay. She sent me over I think a somebody's report from up Green Street, I believe. So I reviewed that, put together something comparable. So I honestly feel like we're missing an awful lot of historic context that we normally get. Historic maps referencing the structure, what was going on, basically what you could find out about that porch from like the same horn doors. Yeah, I don't there wasn't a whole lot of information on this particular property online that was surprising to me. Uh when I looked up other addresses in the historic district, I was able to see like fairly rich history, but that wasn't the case for 219. What's so strange is what normally happens is people show us the maps that they actually looked up to see whatever information there was. Like each year the Sandborn maps, if your property is blank, we can see that as blank. But the way this is presented, we can't tell that you ever did any of that research because can't see the blanks um without me present. If I may also interject, um one reason that we are are here tonight too is to discuss the issue

of the the roof line and the attachment of the porch and how is it as it's pulling away it is impacting the the structure. Yeah. I mean ultimately if you if you you look at some of the photos I've attached the the roof joist or the roof trusses that come out of the second floor they're also shared or sistered to the structure of the actual original building where because this porch is giving way and it's giving way at a rate of like 3/4 of an inch every 30 to 45 days because I have a terrible water issue from the concrete around the building. Mhm. So, it continues to sink like a quarter to 38igh of an inch every month. And what's happening is all of those roof trusses that are sistered together and nailed together, they've all snapped and they're broken. So, beginning to fail. Oh, yeah. I mean, they're beyond fail. I mean, it's And you can tell over time from underneath the first floor that they've put up there's a lot of pressure treated wood. It's sister to the original wood. But I mean, this porch is it it's way beyond zone. Well, I can see that um there's already been quite a bit of demolition that's happening there. At least from when Melissa and I visited, it looked like somebody had sort of started on doing some cleanup and some demo. Um I did note somewhere where it said that this was an open porch and that is not true. This is louding from having a ceiling up there. So, yeah, I'm not sure. There wasn't a ceiling when we took ownership. Someone else did that part. Yeah, it was gone. But, um, a lot of the floor like there's holes cut in the floor. There was always a ladder propped up. I guess they were climbing a ladder to get to the second floor. Um, it's it's an interesting porch. I mean, at some point they put up T111 and like

plexiglass windows. Yeah, we saw those. They're plexi just plexi. Yeah. Being like a window. Um, also when we went, we didn't really see that much actual failure on the foundation. Um, and if you look at one of your pictures, this one, this wood is original and it's actually going to skew a little bit, but to me, it doesn't really demonstrate that level of failure to warrant entire demo. Um, which page are you on? Or yeah, that page, too. I mean there's a there's a little a skew of the wood that's been broken off here, but if you look at that fascia, it's sort of hanging in there except for this little end here. Yeah, but fascia is structural. I mean, this Yeah, fascia is just a trim board. I mean, the ultimate structure is the brick pylons, which only one original brick pylon exists. It's the one on the corner. And if you look at that, I mean, it's missing 80% of the mortar. Yeah. Uh the rest of it is you have 6x6 blocks that have been beaten into place in a couple areas. You have concrete blocks that have been stacked because that brick has fallen in or failed. So the actual structure of the porch is essentially non-existent. It's propped up by cinder blocks in most places. So when Melissa and I were there, I inspected this. And I also went through these areas and I looked for movement and I didn't really see a lot. I mean surely the mortising could be redone on this but I expected more damage for the proposal of an entire um but what what in your opinion would I

be saving? Because in terms of original structure that's left, there's one pylon, that brick pylon that's in that photo. There are a few trim boards. Uh the whole birth floor, all of the structure from the building out to that fascia, that wood is so rotten that it's sistered with 2x8s, pressuret treated 2x8s, which obviously aren't of era. Uh there are floor joists for the second floor flooring. A lot of the the original ochre pine flooring has either been broken, rotten through, or cut out. Uh there's no original siding. There's no original windows. The siding is not original. I know. That's what I mean. I'm asking. No. I mean, they know that it's been enclosed. It was at one time probably double sleeping porches that were both exposed. Yeah. So, you wouldn't have expected original original ship laughing. Like to me this is a historic like 20s, 1920s, 1930s maybe the T11 side. No, no, not that stuff. But you've got some, you know, beaded board here, regular boarding. To me, that looks within the 1920s, 1930s. Yeah, potentially. But again, I mean, a good portion of the stuff that's there that's been exposed to the weather has never been painted, completely rotten through. All right. Well, I I will agree. Something's going on with your rafters. That's for sure. You can tell where the lathe was. And if you look at Let me see if I can explain this to you. When you put plaster lathing right up here, see these little marks here? Nobody painted that. That wasn't painting. That was extra mortar plaster. Yeah. I grew up in a house from 1897.

All right. Good. So, it did it did have a ceiling to it. Yeah. And um these were flush at one point. Now, maybe pulling the ceiling down causing some of the problem. You know, you have less support. Maybe the ceiling had to come down because these are moving. Um I'm suspecting though it's more compression. that wood compresses over time and if you have a termite issue it also compresses over time and you could have you know some kind of thing may structure. Have you had an engineer actually look at this? No, not really in the cars because there's no way I can afford to restore this using similar or like kind materials. The pulse is absorbed. And the problem is I have to take the whole thing down to correct the water issues from the concrete all around the building. So I would have to take it all the way down, start over, and then build it like in. So that's one reason why we do have tax credits because we recognize doing things to look pathetic with the rest of the historic district is pricey and that it does cost a little more than usual. And that's why we recommend you also go through the state. And if it's going to be commercially used, you go through the feds. And that really helps reduce that um concern about not being able to financially manage is by getting these tax credits so that you can offset it by up to 50%. And that's a serious enhancement. You're also on Main Street and I don't know if there are Main Street credits out there, but sometimes there are facades that are available. Melissa would be the one most

knowledgeable about whether or not we had that kind of money. has asked. Okay. Then we just and we don't have any, but we we just applied for an additional $150,000 this to the state. So, and to my point of view, I think um I think I'm on really on the fence of how much can actually be salvaged. And frankly, I'm definitely a little disappointed in this level of documentation. I really think this could be uh a little better off than and we can give you comments to improve it and um I'm not comfortable with believing that it's really a groundwater issue. I really would feel like you'd be best served by getting an architect in there or an engineer who really could tell you what's causing the failure. I mean, I'm happy to get a letter from an engineer saying that structurally it cannot be salvaged. I can make that happen this week if that's Well, I know an engineer will do that for you because, you know, they they can look at stuff like that and feel very uncomfortable about any kind of salvage. And I know people don't want to put their name on something that's like a 50/50 option kind of thing. Um, and I understand that plenty of engineers will kind of tell you what you want to hear. I I get that. I don't think you could find an engineer that would tell you anything other than this is unsafe. It needs to come down. I mean, I'd be happy to let you use an engineer of your choosing if you'd like because 80% of the porch is held up by stacked concrete blocks that are not on a footer. So, it's just we didn't see that shifting that you're telling me. The support beams are literally broken because they've come down two and a quarter inches. So, I mean, what else would cause that if it wasn't sinking? Well, that's what

I was saying. I'm concerned it might be a compression midway of those mid mid supports on the first floor roof. I don't have that problem on the first floor. It's just where they're sistered to the second because obviously, like you said, they were flush because they've dropped and where they're pinned by those nails, they've broken. Those nails have given way. So, I don't I don't have the same issue, and I don't even have the same sag on the first floor that I have on the second. That's why I'm thinking it's not that. That's why I'm thinking that. I mean, I know you can see quite a slant, but that was by design. Both porches always had a slant. Yeah. Usually three and a half or four inches is what you have. I mean, I have six and a half. So, I mean, something's going on. I wavy this way. So if you look at it long ways, there's, you know, it's high on the left side, it's low in the middle, then it's high again where they jam those blocks under. It's almost like they jacked it up and put those blocks under. They could have well done that. And honestly, historic buildings are often a little wavy. Yeah. You know, there's a there's buildings I used to work on when I was in Baltimore that have lost two feet on the front compared to the back and they come up looking like a traffic, but you know, things historically are not square. They're just not. Yeah. And I mean I'm less concerned with square than I am like it's not safe to walk on. I mean it's it's unsafe. The structure is absolutely unsafe. So what's your proposal to take it down and put decks up and just do you have any particular kind of deck you're looking at? Yeah. I mean, I see it. It's included in the report on the last few pages. Yeah, there's pictures. The front porch. I just built the exact same one on the back that I built on the front. And the elevation is is pictured

up here and also in the report, but the actual the actual view of the deck style is a front. So essentially this is 1920s front deck. That's just the style you've chosen for the front. I just redid what was there with modern products. So you're going to do tracks on the back as well. And how does how does black tracks blend in with the historic nature of the building and the neighborhood? It's great facts, but h how does it blend in? I mean, let's say on the back you're getting closet and black tracks. How does that fit in with the historic nature of the neighborhood? I mean, that's an interesting question to me because the building to the right of me is painted white and black. And two down from me, the building next to me isn't a building. It's a chainlink fence with barb wire. Then that's a tan building. And the building next to that is Stuckco. So, it's kind of like what am I trying to blend in with exactly? I don't I don't I I honestly I don't understand the question because like when I look at everything to the left and right of me, nothing is the same. It's the historic district. It's it's the entire district, not just what's adjacent to you. So, it's all elements of the historic district and how's it fit in the historic district, not just what's left. We do have guidelines underlining. lights designed by speaker and like these black windows, you know, and the black doors, those are again low. Yeah, that's exactly what we just exactly what we don't want to see proliferating throughout the rest of the historic district because it has a manufacturer look like it's a building

for making shoes or boxes or something. And I know it's very trendy right now, but it's not helpful to historic district at all. It doesn't help us maintain other properties to look the way they're supposed to look. This sticks out to me. As a matter of fact, the front with the 1920s look, I I understand you're probably replacing what you saw. That wasn't great. Um, that didn't add to the district. was sort of a looks good, but it's better than you could have put a horse. I guess that that's a way for me to look at it. The flooring is exactly square. That sets up for a water problems in the teacher. Although I understand that's good for accessibility, but in the back you won't be so worried about accessibility. I wouldn't think no. We still want some kind of a fall so the water comes out. And the front is a big city. I mean, that front porch was not looking very good. So, yeah. I mean, this old building, I mean, I've spent 30,000 cleaning up. Like, this building was in real bad condition outside. Inside wasn't nearly as bad, but the exterior was horrible of this building. I mean, it essentially the back is great representation of what the front looked like. Is this building commercial or residential? Commercial. And you don't have any sort of ADA entrance? No. I mean, it's commercial. That's what it's owned. Yeah. It'll same. So, whatever he's proposing to, it's that same simplified site plan allocation application process. Well, I guess for me, the bottom line is I have a little problem with the level documentation. I just don't feel like this is up just enough for what we expect. than instructor's report and

I would be happy to offer more written requests, but to say you can't find something and then not show us there's nothing to find. We'd have to just go with trust me there's nothing here and I think we'd rather see that written and have all the little boxes that we offered for historic structures reports proved up. I guess my question is, and I mean I'm have to go back to the drawing board, but what am I trying to prove exactly? You just want me to show the the history of the entire building and when I think the porch was built. Well, for all we know, Grant gave a talk from your porch. I mean, something truly inspiring and important could have happened there that would make you reconsider how you're treating that porch rather than just a trash dump. might say, you know, that puts extra value to me. Something might have happened on that side of the house or something might have happened in the house that would make you kind of go, "Wow, maybe we should keep some of the original elements even if it isn't all that Kmart practical. Maybe we would want to at least replace it so that it is rehacked rather than just cheapest possible option." You know what I mean? I do and I understand your stance, but I don't think anything that happened on that push is going to make me share in that opinion. I mean, I'm happy to look, but I think if Brand or William Winchester or something historically significant happened there, you would know. You would know. I might exactly you would tell me and then I would say, "Oh, that is really neat." Maybe we'd have a different conversation. But I might know, but you're putting way too much uh credit in me. I don't know everything. Although I do know a few things, but um this is also your last

opportunity to have this recorded and once it's gone, it's gone. And you know, once you're done making the money you're going to make, you'll be gone, too. And so this is our last chance for the record. you know, nobody else is going to be asked to propose and offer the documentation we're asking for. And it's sort of a last stitch reminder of what we had even if it does end up gone. So, that's another reason why we want documentation. Okay. Is there a way that you I know you did this with the past report providing like a list of items you would prefer to see or providing? I could do that. I could provide a list of um information we'd like to see. Um that's based off of Melissa's checklist. I can just highlight, look, we don't have any sandborn maps. Look, we don't have any of these or any of that. um so that the report becomes fuller and looks more like our normal historic structure report and I can get that off as a matter of um requirement first whispers I was trying to communicate a a question and we're having time but um yes I'll I'll resend the application and we can talk about that I think a little assistance might needed for this too. If the volunteers could help pull any of this information too with Sure. It's with Mr. I mean, yeah, you click on the links we provide and should be able to find that stuff. Um, and the whole idea that this was an open porch is just not correct. So, you'll want to fix that in your narrative. Um, just because we don't want that

standing as correct. definitely had plaster on it. No doubt. Got a plaster remains to see. Sure. I'll be happy to do that. Um, however, does that really change anything asking for I mean, we're asking for more documentation, but at this point in the process, we hand it over to the director of planning. Is that not true? But the the element is the approval. So he's looking for demolition approval of demolition permit and we don't issue that until the documentation that the HC satisfy the documentation except a requirement for me to be able to issue the demolition permit. Let me So um but the hope would be if the ATC is amendable that um if he can provide additional information if he can provide that list and he get it to you um that prior prior to coming back to another meeting if that's acceptable to the group that and you can make ruling at the next meeting, but there's a way that we could fast track maybe fasttrack it so he can so I can issue demolition permit form. Um, I would like that ability. Okay. So, how can we do that? Um, technically it would be a proviso. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, we ask for a proviso to get improved documentation. I'll be happy to work directly through Melissa. No comments outside of working through the city because they need a record of every time we take a spit, you know, but we'll work through Melissa and we'll get

this documentation up to snot. Okay. I appreciate it. Thanks. So if there's nothing more so this evening provide a list of elements to add to the documentation you can start putting that together work with Melissa and Melissa will work with HTC when when we get it in and then hope would be that that would be about sufficient enough that I can sign off the demolition permit. Yep. So you said sandborn mass go back to the sandborn mass. Yeah. There's a whole list of online resources. I mean, we tried to make this as easy as we possibly could. We also made a list of requirements like putting page numbers, titles, um, saying where your photographs are, you know, from what direction and what facade. So, there's a there is a whole guidance there that's offered for doing historic structures. And, um, Melissa will provide you another copy of that if she's happy, not already. We'll work together. If there's someone I can pay in Westminster that will just do this for me because I don't have time for this. Like it's I'll be 20 or 30 hours trying to figure this out. I really I'd rather just pay a professional. Like would you like to do it? I'll pay you. There's no conflict of interest involved there. Gathering information, right? Yeah. Uh there there are actually are people who can help you with that. um and who actually have architectural degrees as well who can give you kind of the better way of persuading us that it's a total tear down. Um and Melissa can share with you some recent folks who've done work great in town. I'm just going to put someone on retainer and I'll let you know and hopefully that gets us working. We we should probably also be sure and give you the list of things we feel need spiffing up so they don't have to guess

what we're thinking but they have punch list. That would be great. And then we give you the other ones we've done been submitted to us and you see who we can't offer names other than just what was provided and you'll have a contact that way that you can coordinate with somebody. I'll try to get it to you tonight or tomorrow. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it and good luck with your project. I hope this all works out. It will. It will. How long ago? Um I think it was November of last year. Yeah. [Music] Yeah. There was uh there was an attorney on the first floor and part of the second floor and then there was two apartments that people were living in. But they were gross. I don't know how. Yeah. Yeah. That's Yeah. I don't know how I could be living in those conditions. That was Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's just dirty and the amount of stuff like the building r It looked much worse before it was cleaned out. Yeah. Once we cleaned it out and like it it really didn't look that bad. It was almost like they had so much stuff in front of the walls and like it like protected it like a barrier. It seemed like it seemed like there was a little bit of a hoarding potentially with and then I don't know if it was people taking advantage of him or beggrance or what, but I mean they they were someone very clearly cut the hole in the floor and was like climbing up a ladder to get to the second floor. It was a very interesting situation. started living there. Maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't live two blocks away. And I can

tell you for years, 30 years I've lived here, I watched that place a lot because it was a little hinky. Yeah. Well, it'll be nice when something happens. That's for sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll work with you. We'll get get you what you need and then we're going to wrap this up next week. That'd be lovely. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. All right. Time to move to old business. So somehow I'm clinging on to um it is an old business. Right. So let's start out with item D of business. There is a a bit of paperwork attached with that. Um it I will pull it up and show you what it looks like since there's a lot of paper before you tonight. It looks like this. Yeah. Okay. Good. All right. I'll give a little history. Please do. Um 288 East Main Street. um this architecture or similar architecture has been before this body back in November of 2023. We are just revisiting this to ensure that the um elevations that were resubmitted based on the comments of the commission were met to the standards. Um I went back and listened to the videotape and listened to the discussion points and I put them into this record. Um, so things that were mentioned included that brick must be wrapped on all sides, not faux brick, that shutters will be of quality, uh, which clearly cannot be

seen from this drawing, uh, but that was mentioned. Windows should be two over two with spindle columns, stone look at the bottom or carrying the brick to the ground, forbelling, and half moon gutters. I wasn't certain that half moon gutters were achieved in this view, but I would really tonight what we're looking for is confirmation that what has been met or what was discussed has been met and if that's not the case, what wasn't met so that this can go to planning commission as as was recommended. I got to say this is vast improvement. Okay, good. It's a vast improvement. However, two over two windows were not achieved. Well, it's hard to tell from the drawing. was drawing one over one. Yeah, two is not achieved on any window. This I was not part of the commission at the time this was going up. So this is the building that was mostly demolished. Correct. With the log cabin. So is this basically new construction? It is. Yeah, this is all right. So, just to give you some background, imagine no dormers, brick on the front, the rest of it was siding. Um the rear um deck or porching had I think just square um fake balconies. Yeah, fake. Yeah. and um and the the door placement was odd and same with the so again this is a vast improvement what we had prior to um I think there was a misunderstanding of how much to use a historic image and I think they were sort of trying to copy the door placement and even historically it was awkward so and just on the front yeah they were just maintaining and trying to reproduce the front facade

only which was you know peace meal that was adding on over time so that yeah so is this this is going to be apartments yes four apartments four apartments okay so this is so they're going through the site plan process um we're ready to go to the planning commission the Friday planning commission we wanted to come back to the historic district commission to see if there's any additional comments that should pass along Two up, two down. Two apartments on each floor. Yes. Okay. This I was a little confused with two apartments but three doors. I know this I think. Yeah. Yeah. Four doors on the back. And then the middle one will take the middle one takes you the stairs to get up to this top. So a hallway. Yes. And then the upstairs is to the bathroom, right? Yeah. But the two extra goes into a holiday. I'm trying to remember. That was a question. It does. They have to get upstairs. Shows it being maintained. That was one of the conditions. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the question, so the site plan does show the the rear that small structure being maintained. You don't see it here. If you recall, there's a little what it was. There was

a what the structure was for, but one of the HTC requirements or requests for us to maintain it, right? We carried that through the site plan process and it is showing to be maintained on the site. Do we know what the dormers are cited in? But you can see on the this I think it's probably vinyl siding. You can see on this the west side view. All right. So let's go back to our discussion points that we brought up for them already. The brick wrapping must be on all sides and not faux brick. I'm trusting that to be true. You can't tell from an image that it's not faux brick, but we're trusting that's true. The shutters look okay. I think the windows are still wrong. Got that? Spindle columns. It's hard to tell. They look spindly. They look pretty spindly to me. I think they need to improve those columns. And um say they don't need they could be improved. They need to be improved. They didn't answer this at all. It's just still the same old spindly columns there were before. You're looking for more spindle. Less less spindle. Okay. Those look like the, you know, like uh iron deck edges of things, you know, like the cheapest little things you can get. It really should be a wooden treatment back there. Wooden wooden ball straight. Is that the right word? Balance. Oh, you're not talking about the support. You're talking along the upper of the upper porch. They look better actually in this side view. They're talking about the val. Well, even the columns look a little too spindly for this building. Should be a little a little thicker.

Pull it up. I know. But could be just like a steel pole. It really needs to look a little more like wood. Little chunk here. Okay. But we said spindly columns we felt like everything looked a little too thin for that time period. And the stone look on the bottom or carry the brick to the ground. So I'm assuming they're carrying the brick to the ground except it's these two elevations don't actually indicate that. That's that was my one one of my comments other than the house. Yeah. It's just unshown. It's it's it's white. It appears to be concrete. So concrete they need to carry the brick to the bottom or put a stone look on it. Now the corelling I cannot tell from this image. It's just not detailed enough. It looks like they tried to do that on the front right here. That little tiny that little thing. You can see to leave her out a little. So if they say we showed that I guess that could be the spot, but it's only in the front and his actually on the back as well. Yeah, I think it is. If you look right right here, that's the front. No, the other side here. Yeah. See this there? If you got it here, you got it right right here and here. Looks like the same thing that they got there. Or normally I looked at it the back doesn't matter anyway because it's got to pile. The corelling would be visible. Yeah. Doesn't Doesn't it wrap the side too to kind of give a break? Yeah. Break in the sides. Don't you typically have it extend?

Yeah. You really should go around the entire building at about the same elevation. So coraling along all sides, kneaded along all sides. And then again, that image is hard to tell, but it does not look like a half moon gutter. It looks like your typical K gutter. Yeah. It's all wrong. Don't think it's one. So we always well they should provide us with a detailed inset so we can see for the and I I think that's good if that's really the core belling that looks good. It just needs to be carried out throughout the entire building. And the roof is, you know what they were doing for the roof? Asphalt chamber. No chain. Um guys, I'm having a a little gray cell moment here with the coraling. It would not mark go and break up the building. It wouldn't go across the site. No, it would just stay up with the cornes. So, it should actually extend up to the peak and down again because that's what it does at my house. It does not actually go the along with the stringers. It would have it would have to go along the edge of the corners of the roof. That's what historically just and that makes sense. It seems like they just need something to break up that massive brick. Even what is the different coloration? You can car it with something else. I don't know. Seems like they not put any window there.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm also making a board on under roof. Well, the Corbell was actually quite fancy even if it was just two roofs like this. My house only has three or four courses of corbelling and today it doesn't look fancy. But at the time it was very fancy because it was hard to do as a stonemason. Working the brook out so it all balanced and actually stuck out over the edge was hard to do. You had to have it balanced right. You had to have the mortar right. And and people recognized that, but it didn't have that same quote unquote diculate look or fancy look. also out of this building to basically place into the oldest part, right? I know it is a very sensitive oldest part. I have a question. Is it the exact same site plan as the previous building? Because the previous building went right up to the next to it and the next pushed up. So maybe that's why it's We can we can we'll shoot you the site plan so you can see where how the building sits and the other and the the other structure remaining and how the fire works and everything. We can shoot you that. Thank you. Those apartments on that east side are going to be really dark apartments. One window at the front and the back and nothing along the entire side of the building. It's perfect. That's like a townhouse, you know. Yeah. I think that side is going to be a good two feet maybe less to the adjacent wall. Okay. I guess that's why they have to It's just a bare walkway. Yeah. Historically. Yeah. I think they had windows.

Okay. So, yeah. The only thing that I had thought was that spindle columns were wanted, but you were saying they were not wanted. Yeah. Okay. So, less spindling and a larger width or a larger radius. Yeah. Just a little more. They do look It just looks like the back porch is going to collapse with that big of a facade base. You just look some more mass to bounce out the the the facade. Maybe not as much as the picture we just saw earlier with the front porch, right? But it still needs It would be nice if it provides some Yeah. visually it just doesn't look right. columns went to the other extreme of well in the 20s through the 40s those pedestal columns were really in they were very chunky and they looked very stately slapped onto a colonial house um they didn't look really right either but some people have a lot of nostalgia because they're in a lot of movies you know but um they don't to me they're not period and those columns and the barrier to keep people from falling off the second floor porch that the ballistrates there need to look a little more substantial than just a cheap iron railing. Oh yeah. Okay. So more substantial railing and columns. Yes. Okay. And then I had a question on the door situation in the back. Mhm. The two middle doors, where do they go? And I don't know if we're looking I saw that utilities, I remember, but not maybe um positive. Didn't have a staircase going back downstairs like that. I thought the front was just a a

storage. The back is actually the entrance into the parking lot. Maybe it does. Maybe it must provide another entrance because there's no you don't see any stairs coming off the second floor balcony. So I guess if you're because the parking's in the back, too. Yeah, that makes sense. So again, why not two versus one? Maybe just, you know, privacy. I guess you don't have to share a stairwell with anybody for the upstairs. Yeah. Okay. Then what is the center door on the front? Yeah, that's right. Thank you very much. Any of the like is a good example. They got a separate door front and back because you've got the hallway going through to the staircase. So why one door in the front, two in the back? Why? I agree. I think he loses some square footage in We'll look into that, too. Maybe, you know, floor plants. Is it the same person that submitted this? It is. since it's new construction. Are they required to provide two staircases or an external staircase in the porch or something to meet fire code? I'm guessing they are. That's why they don't have to do one off the porch. They have an interior one that goes down to the exterior. I don't know though, but that that'll come up when they submit their building permits, right? But they haven't done their work now. They'll have to amend the site plan if they if they have to add stairs later. So, well, I would love to see them get it this done kind of quickly because my big fear is somebody's going to come back and say, "Well, we really need a bigger footprint to make this financially work." And honestly, this is a current footprint and I would hate to be pressured into a bigger footprint like eight units. I assume they're putting parking in the rear. Yep. They have a lot of parking area. even tumor units like el off the

back. It's just let's get this done while we can keep it in the same footprint. Yeah. Well, surely they can apply for anything they want. I think I talked to Mark at one point thinking that eight units was possible and there's enough parking but not preferable because then that little historic structure is right in the target zone. That's why I'm like let's get this four units out of see what's left historic stuff. Thank you very much though for looking at that again. Absolutely. Okay, so back to our agenda. Have we con finished with our input on old business? Yes. Okay, great. So, um, historic district commission implementation plan. Do you want to make an announcement, Melissa? Sure. The city has awarded the contract, the request for proposals to EAC Archaeology. Elizabeth Comr. I don't forget the A and Elizabeth Anderson Comr. Elizabeth Anderson Comr. So, we are now coordinating a kickoff meeting. So, we are jump we're jumping in to it and we're excited. Our GIS team is ready at the staff level and we have a representative from the state Maryland Historical Trust to be in that. Um, and really after that kickoff, we'll have more information. However, um, we've got the direct mailing coming up, so we'll have to get excited about preparing for that. Um, we've got two community meetings that will be scheduled as part of this program. And then I think throughout this process as we continue to meet, we should provide more sub substance to what we're doing and how

that's going and you know providing feedback on that. So for the record, I have yet to see the proposal. I was not asked for comment. So I could not have tainted the process. I had nothing to do with the process. you guys. No, we did. We We didn't have an opportunity because of the timeline. Yeah. However, I did work for Elizabeth. Right. So, it worked out for EAC. I was one of her first projects way back in the 1980s. They've done a lot of similar projects. They really stood out as the best valuable bidder in our opinion. And the price was right. So, it worked out well. I I have to say just from the names of the applicants immediately I gravitated towards this decision in my heart. So I know I can work with that. Good. Or I had lunch with one of them last Saturday. So um of all of the folks we've sent doodle polls to, yours got kicked back. Yes, I'm having some computer issues. So maybe we can talk offline. Let's talk. Okay, that would be great. having computer issues somehow computer which has almost nothing on it thinks it is at its quota and it's kicking back my emails. Okay, just making a lot of people angry at me. So, we're not angry at you. Maybe you should be. I don't know. There's something something going on. Um, okay. So, with the implementation plan, I cannot wait to begin to get rid of that big box of resources I have in my living room and only one box. Only one box, but a folded up map. A rolled up Atlas map. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. 232. Y. So, it'll be fun. All right. Well, let's move on then. Are we ready to move on everybody to the nation's 250th and there's some happy things going on there. Let's start out with historic district street signs. What's going on?

Can we circle back to that one? Okay. I want to pull up an email and see if I can get some more information on the screen. Chris is not here for downtown Preparations 250th. Did she share anything with you? No. How we doing on commemorative plaques? Working on it. Good. All right. Well, it's time now. Next month. Yes. Put the burners on so we can pick something. Commemorative sign in Belro Square. Good news. We have landed on a proposed date but not approved date. We're aiming for September 20th at 2 o'clock. However, Melissa pointed out to me that she does not believe we have an approved permit yet. So, this is a save the date announcement, not an approved announcement. For the event or for the PLA? For the event. We got the approval for the PLA some time ago. Wow. When we got the city to write a letter of approval or support for the grant application. Okay. But anyway, that's exciting. I think that's great. Um, nothing about the Liberty Tree plaque as far as I know. No, it's that what that project really is is kind of falling in line when we have these other street side decisions and um we ran off budget in the fiscal year. Now we're in a new fiscal year. Um, so we I think we we mentioned and this isn't a finished business, but we have ordered the two welcome signs. Good. So, so when those come in, we'll let you know. And we we should I guess we're not waiting to put those out, right? Or did we want to wait till 2026? No, we're not waiting. Once we're in the midst of the revolution once they come in and yeah, part of the contract for the purchase is installation, too. So, we just need to work other works to find the exact location. So, once they come in, we're ready to have this installed. Well, before we get off the trees, yeah,

go ahead. Um, I will say I heard from one of the other historic groups I work with, the D, um, that they have gotten three Liberty trees as well, and they're going to plant one near Frederick someplace in Carroll County. And I'm not sure where the three third tree was going to go. And then I made this suggestion that, you know, we have two trees we know of, right? The one here went up at um, Union Mills. And I thought maybe that is worth some sort of tourist ping, you know, see the five liberty trees in the midsection of Maryland or something. I said maybe that's something to celebrate or put towards tourism or something. And her first response is well the D is going to want to do what the DA wants to do, but an after effect could be we do some sort of linkage like that. So it's just something to put in mind. I mean, we're going to probably want some kind of a plaque unveiling at the Liberty Tree for us, but in the 251st year, we might want to do some linkage that says, you know, find your Liberty trees and start here. Would you want to put one at Westminster Cemetery because you got the Patriots and that sign going in? Well, our two Liberty trees are already taken. So, one maybe suggest to the D that Oh, yeah. since there was one where they would go get one but it is their name. We do have a place for it. We had a rare tree. We have a place for it right and got that other one that I come in for the s. So that's so close. So yeah, I like that. I will ask I'll ask our region. Yeah. All righty. All right. I have a couple

things to share. I'm throwing them into a Google Drive. Work on this double computer thing here. Okay. There. All right. Um to continue with the tree discussion. I just There it is. So, I had done work on a plaque. It's just we never we never pulled the trigger. Oh, that's bad. We didn't we didn't we didn't have the funding for it. It was it was too expensive at the time. Um Latin millennials and not to throw my generation under the bus, but we don't always have the history. We're we're we're on our, you know, devices. We're doing a million things. And people need to know exactly what the Liberty Tree was. You need a little context for this. The Y oak I feel like is more widely known. Yes. But the Liberty tree I think needs more. So, and what kind of tree is it? So, I could send this around again and get feedback on it. We could change it completely. You know, we could probably word smith it down. Yeah. Or add in new words that might be even more exciting. Sure. Show me the text. I'll take a look at Kathy. It's very wordy. I can't She knows how to chop it. I can't actually see it from here. It's a little small for it is uh so yeah, I'll send out that the Maryland Liberty Tree grew at St. John's College located in Annapapolis, Maryland. Liberty trees were gathering places for Sons of Liberty groups throughout the American colonies and from their meetings and discussions, the seeds of the American Revolution were planted. We might have also mentioned wanting to put our logo on the plat. We do want our logo in absolutely everything. Be nice to have that a lot of time on that stinking logo. Let's use it. Good, good, good, good, good. Well, do you send that around you know that

you're charged with a look at it and chopping chicky chopping. Okay. All right. And then also we have so um just trying to get an idea of what we like and what we don't like. We know for street signs the brown with the white lettering has been discussed at length. Um we showed a sign of Belgrove Square. Actually I should be sharing this with the public. My apologies. Let's do that so folks can see. Um oh I think we love that. I didn't ask yet about these, but just to remind ourselves of the conversation, we we wanted to look in that. And then the thought process was that they could be put along Main Street. Um, we also got into a discussion about whites level. Is it in the city? Is it not in the city? Do we want to mark that? Um, but I think we really want to start too with what did the sign design look like? So, here's here's something that's in Glendon. Yes, that's good to say. We're talking brown and white letters would want to be, but that's just another example. It's very visible though. You could put the brown where the blue is. I think the blue is just something background. The blue is a part of But actually, I mean, anything good is possible. Really? Aren't there some blue up there? There are. I love the ones in town. Those are the ones that I sent to the um Let me see without getting in the weeds of all things. Here's the other one. This is more similar to the tonnet look, but theirs doesn't have the break. It looks like this has a break. Theirs is all one connected side. Oh, okay. So, this could look classy, too. Interesting that they chose a logo. I'm not sure that would be very visible. No, it's it would be so small you could really still I like it. I like something

similar to the Tony Town ones because then you're starting to get consistency around the county because some of the other towns might be trying to something similar. Yeah. And it establishes sort of a look for the historic areas across the county. Yeah, I like that. All right. Good. Well, do you have do you have a direction, Melissa? Would you like to make a motion on that design? What do you think? Are we just general the Tony Town design, right? Well, it looks similar to Let's pull it up one more month. Pull it up so we can bring the Tony Town. We'll bring them back, but I guess I charge the commission to look and and really dive in it because this is our our last chance, so to speak. We'll move forward with something. We want to be really proud of it. So, we do. I want to see what Tiny Town looks like, but I'm almost sold on that. I think the other commissioners like it. I'm almost tiny town white lettering. Yeah. And and I've just gonna do it now. Go to Google Earth. I like George Street. George Street. I am a very familiar with this city now. Okay. Where are we at? Okay, we're coming in. There they are. Oh, look. They Oh, they are similar. Really didn't think they had that disconnect. That is I'm going to go with that tonight. What do you guys think? Yeah, I like it. George, if it's you can get brown in length. Yeah, love it. So, the brown We're getting really technical here. The brown where the Westminster

cemetery is is a lighter shade of brown than this shade I believe or a shade of it looks a dark green we can bring that maybe to the discussion next month. No, just do it. Look and see what browns they have. But I think I think the darker Oh, brown. But lighter lighter or darker? Which would be better to see? No, darker because you get more contrast. Yeah. Yeah. And with the white writing, I really think over time it's gonna fade. Dark petroleum. Okay. I think it's gonna fade over time. So, you're gonna want to see that. Is this a historic um It almost looks like the welcome pineapple. It does sort of I I don't know that it's I'm not sure what it's called. I think you'd have to ask somebody who's really into historic design because I don't know that it is, but it sure doesn't help that to me. Okay. I wouldn't believe it if somebody told me that. Well, that's just that's very exciting. That's a Lord thing. We got there. We got there. We got there. All right. Can I go back to another topic real quick? Can I go back to Belro Square? So, I do know there's going to be um uh some requests of the city for Belro Square um that we didn't mention at our in-person meeting. And one is that we do have a proclamation, but it's done by the D women and we would want the mayor to use that proclamation. Is there anything that would get in the way of using something different than what the city normally uses for its proclamations? Is there like a proclamation law or ordinance? I'm sure it's I'm sure it's generally the same. You do both. Um be quick. They have a proclamation. Senator, all right.

It is the standard one for the nation for this 250th and it's just like the writing that's on there. It's all standardized. Okay. So, this proclamation is standardized as well. And um you know it probably has the mayor saying what a great job the D is doing in town. Probably mentions our regent. You know it probably has a few things. Yeah. This is for the September 20th event. Yes. Okay. But I mean it's already pre-drafted. But yeah. Do you have to bring proclamations to the city council in advance or is this just something we hand to the mayor on that? are great questions for our city clerk. However, I mean, this the mayor has presented a proclamation uh for the 250th at the Carol Arts Center for the Historical Society of Carol Countyy's it was the 85th birthday or whatever. Yeah. That they had. So, she has gone off site, so to speak, from city hall at council meeting to proclaim. My guess is yeah, we she would review it prior to so we wouldn't surprise her. The city clerk can process like any other proclamation. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, we've it's not my responsibility, but Jennifer will be sending it through. Okay. I think Mark, I've tagged you as central character. Um, and she said, "Well, what about Melissa? It looks like Melissa's really gonna work with us more." And I said, "Mark will tell Melissa to work with us." But I think that Mark's the person to make the target for all emails and then have Melissa CC. That's fine with me. Y chain of We have a great chain of command. Well, I think she thought you'd be insulted and I said, "No, this is how things work in government." So, we start with Mark and make himself

email. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I told her nobody gets blindsided in this city. Yeah. You know, we can't have that. So, two emails are better than one. So, all righty. I'm sorry to have forgotten that under my If you do the minutes, maybe you can scoot it back under. Sure. All right. So, that sort of completes our items for the 250th, doesn't it? Look like it. So we can move on to the historic commission where we ask for or did we do the 250th meeting updates? Oh, do we have any um I guess my question would be Mark is there any any headway on the workshop? Is that something interest the work session? Work session with mayor and common council. Yes. Once uh the city clerk gets back organized or working with him for a time to have historic district commission before the mayor county council has it work. I don't know if we just be at one of their work sessions or at an actual regular meeting. Um so that's we just need to figure out a time to get and let you guys know. I always sort of felt it would be better to do it sort of offline so it could give and take. Yeah. If they had expectations that were not meeting, I'd like to hear about that quietly. Well, we still have a chance to fix them. Well, this is in the discussions about the 250th, right? I think that's just as long as you stick to the 250th discussion update. Um, you know, I'll talk about anything, but we have a time period to I think primarily they'd be listening to what you are asking or what you're looking or what you're doing the 250th. Yeah. Yeah. And probably Melissa, you and I should rehearse it to make sure we don't forget anything or I have to bounce back and forth between. Agreed. I think it would be good for me to help with maybe preparing a document with everything that we kind of talk

about and where we're at the updates. Um, we do have a nice events wrap card if we wanted to pair up some things with really showcasing next year how we're going to roll it out in a nice way like Abby does with her events and, you know, working that in well. So, we have all of the ideas. It's just getting it out there, but I would love to meet offline and and we can talk about how we want that to look. And maybe what's only fair is that every one of these items we have, we at least try and abstract what city participation we need. Like the D, we were really counting on you, Melissa, to do the press release for it. Like us and the girls have talked about that several times that we know Melissa can do it by the press release and we can. So, well, I mean, we'll help. But you've got all the outlets to send it to, you know, all the news and media things. And when they get something from the city of Westminster, I'm sure they'll sit up and listen. No, I'll throw one more thing on with the topic of 250 meetings up here. Just our our county website, which is curating all of the events in the, you know, for this for the city. Come on. What's going on? Okay. It's a wireless and it doesn't always connect exactly where you want. Just a reminder of all the things happening. Um there is a a tavern that's being constructed, a tavern exhibit that was um it's really a project through the historical society. Um but it's it's the way that we're reaching out to the county at large to um bring to other events and to get some excitement and some other last comments on what do you want to see here in Carol County. Um and with that I wanted to so the events there's and I know you all

are familiar with historical society events but we've got a lot of you know the history shaken and stirred. There is the history fest coming up at the end of the month on the 26th. And I just wanted to point out that whenever there's an event in Westminster, whether it's county related, we the city of Westminster kind of gets mentioned like Westminster as a whole with their logo for those things. Um, but I have brought to their attention our logo. So if it's something that we are doing and coordinating, it'll be ours um up here. So great. Yeah, there was there was some there's a woman who may have interest in in joining uh with some comments and I kind of provided all avenues. I I don't have a name yet, but if there's somebody who's interested, I figure they're welcome to attend a meeting here and join the discussion. Um yeah, absolutely. All right, that's it for Thank you. All right. So, um, last stop for the evening is historic district commission and public comments. This is an opportunity where the commissioners can talk to us a little bit about what other historical things they've been doing and what um maybe we might want to be aware of. So, we'll start with Kathy. Uh, I don't have anything. press just heard that the um Patriots marker for the Westminster Cemetery has been approved by the S leadership. We will be the first in the state of Maryland. So now I'm just waiting for them to show up and say, "Where do you want the poll?" So I'm so ready to go. Um, yeah, and the S guys have been good to work with, and I actually am hoping maybe we

could do a couple other cemeteries with patriots. Um, but it's fun to start right here in our backyard. Hey, Grace, do you have anything? Nothing. Anything up for you, Mr. Deepa? You have anything you want to share? I don't think I'm stubbing your toes. Do you have anything else? No, I got it. Okay. Um, we had notes. We had a staff meeting yesterday and Rof's Mill, as we know, has been purchased sold to Tim Kyle. Yeah. Wow. So, so we're excited. We know him, right? And, um, he's gone through our tax credit process before. Um, so there is a building permit out for work on that. So um should have the details for you but essentially it's it's a few cosmetic exterior and interior actual of just the house. So we wanted to let you know just for now everything is is just repairing and stabilizing replacement and kind it doesn't seem to mention the mortar anything. Did you mention the mortar? We haven't yet. I don't believe it's been approved yet, but that would be the I think he'd want to know just because using the wrong mortar is just so damaging to the brick. Yeah. And he was guess we have these conversations with his 160 West main house. That's why Yeah, we can we can this property includes the middle of the house and those commercial buildings that were added. That's it. Yeah. That's it. And I think, you know, talking to him, it is his desire to then get to a mill at some point. You know, I keep the suspension bridge. I sat through that mill way long ago

for that and to bring it back. That's so wonderful. Unique in Carol County that that bridge that bridge and very memorable. Well, that male is second oldest in the country and the old words doesn't of everything that m the mail inside is totally complete. So, if there's some way to get word to Mr. Kyle that we are really excited. Yeah. I mean, I I went on a tour on it when it was on a tour by the Society for um the preservation of mills. Boom. It it is known to be really exceptional. So, anything we can do be great. Yeah, we'll let him know. Anything else from Miss Thorne? I'm gonna say no. All right. And with that, we will bring ourselves to adjournment. I thank you all very much. And we're adjourned. Thank you.