Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

I printed my own, but they might have some extras for you. Okay. Yeah. Hello.

Do you think we're going to do this in an hour or are we going to take 12?

I'm sure everybody would love to do the most efficient review process. Yeah.

No, I have a class, but I can barely.

I'll do my best. French. Yeah. Go ahead and call this meeting to order do we need a roll call. I caught her.

Chair the court here. Professor Chauvin is not present but member of the issue here. I remember Chavez here one of us a lot is. One member pinto it. One member Sanchez the president should we have a quorum.

Okay, and I see Andrea just walked in. Okay, I'll turn it over to get us kicked off.

Good evening. We're excited to have our, I don't know, maybe this is the fifth or sixth workshop. It's kind of losing track. But we feel that at this point we really are very close to the finish line. I hope you all agree with that. And we've provided all the edits from the last time. We had a pretty good markup set that we worked with. and we all took pretty good notes, reviewed the meeting, you know, recording and everything and followed along. So we feel like we really answered really all of the outstanding issues and just wanted to, I guess, go do like page turn, just kind of how we did last time and if further comments or suggestions and hopefully this will be our final meeting.

That's our goal here. Great, thank you. And thank you guys for your work on this. I think it's really come a long way. It would be my goal to bring this to the, what is the process? Does this need to be approved by the commission?

Yes, it'll be an ordinance to change the code.

Okay, and so when's the possible next, because I'd like to do it before the election and having to restart this process with a new group. So when could we get this reasonably to the commission? I think we only have two more meetings before the election. Okay.

Commissioner, if you can please speak into the microphone.

So I was saying there are two more meetings and we are in time to get this on the February agenda.

Commissioner, apologies for the interruption, but the town attorney deadline has already passed for the February agenda. It would be on the March agenda.

Okay, so...

Staying corrected.

Yeah, I think it's very important that we get this to the March agenda, which I think would mean leaving here with a pretty clear... Is the March one the last one before the elections? Yeah. Otherwise, I think we're going to fall victim to transition and people wanting to restart the process. Before we page turn, if it's okay, I just had a few higher-level questions to ask. I think you guys have done a nice job organizing this. I think one high-level question I have is, as I read through renovations and new construction, so much of it is overlap. And so I'm asking the group, do we think that that's the way we want to leave it, or would you kind of have – one section and then just have differentiating blurbs for rehab versus new construction under the subheadings.

So my original thought process was that a user not familiar with this guide may pick it up and think that that section doesn't apply to them. So we organized it specifically so that hey, I'm doing a new construction, I know I'm doing a new construction, let me just go to that section and read that. They're not gonna necessarily know to go back and forth. But I think I understand what you're saying, like we could just do one title and then if there are any nuances between new construction versus existing, then we could just put it under that section versus having rewrite the whole chapter.

Yeah, I mean, I hear your point. I think that's a good point. I think, in my mind, I'm also thinking how much, you know, we gotta get people kind of quickly to the point. But I guess if they can just go to the section, that may work, and it sort of stands alone. Anyone else have thoughts on that? Okay, well, then let's leave as is if no one else had any issues. The other big picture item I had was, I don't recall anywhere that we talk about or have photos of the understory, and I'm just wondering if that should be something we specifically call out Because it's sort of a different building type that our code does allow. So I'm just wondering if that should be somewhere in the new construction section, that that's a possibility.

Good point. I even had a question come up maybe a couple weeks ago about the regulations for understories. And specifically, they wanted to know height. We don't have that specifically anywhere in our code. And there may be... some things that we wanna define in here and how it should be used and shouldn't be used. So, okay.

Yeah, I think that's probably worth at least a paragraph. I don't think we're ready to talk about limiting the understory heights today. We have a maximum height. We let people work within that. As a first draft, we would send it out that way. Okay, other high level comments or questions?

I was just wondering, is the height considering the design guidelines and the stories or is it the code?

I think it's the code. And I think we do point people kind of when we lay everything out in the beginning, like here's the different documents and how they work together. But if you think there needs to be any sort of clarification or specific call outs. we could do so. But we could say something along, the zoning cone governs setbacks, heights, blah, blah, blah. Please refer to this link to the code.

Because I remember you mentioned something or someone in one of the meetings about one specific construction that looked like it was like three stories, right? So maybe we could have an example of what not to do, right? So that's what you're referring to? Is there a reference to that?

Well, I was just more broadly speaking to the concept of an understory, because now that we've sort of edited down the images that we have, I don't recall seeing any with an understory. So I'm just wondering if we want, I think what I'm hearing, this group is willing to support the understory if done correctly. because of the benefits of the drainage and lots of other stuff, but I just think we might want to try to specifically have a section on it and maybe one image.

Yeah, recommending not to make it look like three stories, right?

Yeah, we could add that to the blurb. Yeah.

I think there's another issue that there's a house that they just finished and I saw, I don't remember the address. It's something that I just, it's beyond hideous, but... They also created this kind of half understory. It's a weird in-between a full story that you can drive into. And they've elevated the house, and it's this last one they built towards the water in the middle of a block. It has this grill on top of it. It looks like some weird apartment building. It's really monstrosity. But it's also, it has a half story. It's very odd. It's a crawlspace. under the house, that it's not a full drivable space, but they've created this insanely odd space that it's, you know, if you elevate the house, but it's not a full understory, there's still that space that you're creating, and these people have chosen to leave it open, so the house has an understory on the left-hand side, which is a garage, then they have this stoop that goes up in the middle, and on the right-hand side, the volume on the right-hand side is halfway, So they've created this abomination of a crawl space underneath it. You see right through it, but just not habitable. And I wonder if that's something that we need to point out because it creates, as we elevate these houses, some people choose to elevate them but not really make them an understory. So there's that. Some people might think that to leave it open, as some weird, these people did. They live in the house. The house, it was just finished. So I don't know how that falls into, if we even have to point it out, but the house is really, it has everything that we should not be building in this town in one house. And this is one of the things it has.

My recommendation would be that we add the understory code to a future discussion item to refine points like that, because it is sort of a new typology for people here, and people I think are playing with it and not always succeeding in implementing it in the right ways. So I think the perception of the third story is a cautionary tale, I think sort of... Yeah, which just happens in this house.

It reads as a three-story house.

Yeah. So let's add that, and I think maybe in the blurb about the understory, I mean, every new house is gonna come before us. Of course. So we'll be able to have a chance to comment on that, but if we can encourage people to do it the right way out of the gate, we will. But I think that's gonna be a bit of a work in progress for purposes of this design guidelines. Okay.

I mean so within the site grading and landscaping is a generous amount of let's say menu items that have been suggested throughout the guidelines that kind of suggest that if someone is developing a property that is going to have this vertical type of presence. that they are to layer everything from the sidewalk property line up into the front wall, whether they layer it through landscaping, grading, and all those features are meant to reduce visually the verticality.

I just think it's very simple, the concept, because if you're not going to inhabit a space under the house, it can't be left open to the street. You can't just have this open crawl space that faces the street.

That's what I was getting at. What exactly, so if we're going to modify some of this language to talk about elements of understory, what we want, the crux of it is that we don't want an open, unhabitable space to be visible.

That's exactly what this one is. Perfect. It's a creepy, you see right through that.

It needs to be on a scale. a human scale, which we don't need to define in feet today, but you need to be able to park a car under it or have a table underneath it.

Well, which gives us a minimum height, because we have an understory. It has a minimum height. I mean, we don't have to get into the specifics, but if you're going to park a car, that height is set. The understory cannot be lower than X, than seven feet or whatever it is. That's just a standard. You cannot make them lower because if you need to occupy them, you can't park a car in anything that is, I don't know what exactly, 7-2 or whatever it is. So I think that that's a finite number that if we go into the understories, the understories cannot be lower than... Because it's an open end. Some people are 5'2". They might think that they can get away with a six foot on this story. And that creates a very strange typology of space. So I think that when we get to that section, I think we can set, to me, a recommended height for it not to be lower than seven feet. I mean, this particular house brought It has everything that I hate in one house, so there's a lot you can build a code on not to do this house, but on the right-hand side, it has that open crawl space that you can see right through the entire house, so it's very odd.

Okay. Other high-level comments before we page flip?

No, it's all the way back.

Okay. Do you guys want to lead us through?

It's on.

I do notice there are a number of, I don't know if these are blanks for text or for images. This is for text here on the first page. Legacy homes eras text.

Yes, we were to receive from one of the board members a text regarding the legacy home eras.

I've been really busy.

I don't want to point any fingers.

I will.

That's why those boxes are nice. So I have this. I'm insanely busy this month. I think that what I did was group it, and we can talk after that. I can send you the images. I think that what we talk about legacy homes, we talk about the period between 1930 and 1940. So that's because we actually do have a lot of those homes. I went through all the records of the houses we built, and I'm surprised how many houses actually built in the 30s. I thought it was a much lesser number because some of them have been... defaced, so they don't really read no longer as some of those houses. And then I grouped them into the 30s to the 40s, and then the 40s and the 50s, and then I did a category that was the 70s houses. I didn't go beyond the 70s, because I think you get into the hokey 80s and the hokey... Yeah, the 70s. So I do have this. I printed out the addresses and the locations. Also, I did, I think that one section that when I was thinking about, one section that I think is, it could be very good. It would be nice to set perhaps in the guidelines, because I think visual guidelines are the best kind of guidelines for people to look at, is to show them a good house that has been renovated you know, a legacy home that's renovated, and it's being updated, and we appreciate the renovation. It looks really beautiful. Like this house that belongs to a friend of mine at 8951 Hawthorne, it's not mimetic. They didn't do a hokey new, it's actually, it looks like, it feels like a new house, but insanely respectful to the past of the house, and it becomes... just a beautiful addition to the community because it has been renovated, it's renovated beautifully. So I posted, I mean including my house because I think my house does a good job at that. This house and 8874 to 89th Street, which is a house around the corner from me, that is an Art Deco house that they did an addition to. So it's an example of someone had added onto an Art Deco house. I think that having examples of people or things that we think that they're successful in renovating these legacy homes is very useful for design guidelines in my mind.

So I guess the question becomes, do we feel, he's got a lot of visuals there, which I think will be helpful in the legacy homes visual section. Do we feel like we need more text sort of laying out? I mean, based on what you read here, do you think you want to provide any more text to the historical context?

No, I think that we need to add. People don't like to read. People don't give a damn about reading. They don't want us to read anything. So I think the visuals are, if we point out, because then people will go there. They will drive, and they will look at the house, and they will take pictures of the house, and they will inform themselves. People like to see, okay, I'm going to go look at that house. And we have very, very good examples, not a lot of them, but we have very good examples of renovated legacy homes that did a beautiful job. Very few, but I think that we should.

Let's add that to the visuals. Thank you for collecting that information. I think having the intro, then the historic context makes sense. Any questions, or can we move to page two? On page two, I suggest that we move these blurbs, which I think are important, more into our core values and have that be the next section. So for example, The legacy homes inspiration, I think, could go after the first bullet point or be part of the first bullet point or an intro to the first bullet point in core values where we're talking about promoting the preservation of the town's legacy homes. I like that language there. And then... when we're saying consider our neighbors and neighborhood when designing a structure, I think that's when you could add the designs that disregard Surfside's historic context blurb. And then we don't, I'm not sure we need these images. In my opinion, this is all what we don't want to see, right? So do people think that's valuable, what we don't like? Or do we want to just point people to positive examples? I don't have an opinion.

I would say positive, but yeah.

Sorry, what was your?

Positive.

Positive, yeah.

That's my inclination. I don't particularly care for the pictures, but I think that they're very, I think, again, I'm very much in the, I think people need to see. Then they see what we don't like. I think the reaction is, It's better than reading. People don't understand what they're reading, but they understand what they're seeing.

What I would recommend, then, is that we add another section of images at the end. Because I don't want to kick off the design guidelines. That's true. That's true. Like an annex? Yeah, I would add this.

Like a glossary, a visual glossary.

After the inspiration and the approved homes for reference, we can say design don'ts. But I think every picture needs a caption about what specifically it is we don't like about this. So do you guys need us to go through these pictures to say what it is? Okay, so the first one, I think it's the double, is this a double height entryway?

That's the one with the hideous gate and it has a very steep stoop, clad in like really weird gray and a double height entryway. That one has a really steep stoop. I don't know if you know this house.

Yeah, we can probably get a better picture of this. This looks like it was when it was under construction. So we don't like the double height windows or entry. We don't like, the gate is probably not, doesn't meet our 50% opacity.

And also this is a house that is ramped up. It's one of those ramped up houses. Yeah, ramped.

Okay. Let's just go clockwise. So the next one, I'm assuming, is all the equipment that's so visible from the street and this huge expanse of stucco, like a 12-foot ground floor. These are your pictures. I'm assuming we don't like the exposed mechanical equipment and this huge expanse of stucco. Correct.

The ratio of glazing to that. Yeah. Okay.

And here we also talk, I don't remember which page, about the terraces and everything because of considering the privacy of the neighbors. So this one is like...

This is the same house, actually. This house and this house.

There's no green screen here.

Yeah, there's no privacy here, and it's huge.

Okay. The one below that? What's the issue?

It's just a box. The windows, they don't...

Not enough fenestration? Paved over the whole front yard. That's good.

I think it's a ratio of fenestration to the whole paid front plus the whole thing. It basically is just a dead box with no articulation whatsoever.

The one below it?

Oh, sorry. Sorry to break the news. A lot of these houses have to do with the reduction of existing windows. A lot of people choose to make the windows even smaller than they were originally. This house had bigger windows that they made it smaller. That's why I think it's important. A lot of people reduce the fenestration on the house. This house originally didn't have...

It must have had more.

It had more windows, and people chose to reduce the fenestrations, and that should not be allowed.

Okay. The lower right-hand corner image of the tree, are you trying to show the tower, or are you trying to show...

I think that was a steep stoop from the street onto the house. That's not a great image of that, though. No, it's not a great image.

So let's just get rid of that. The one to the left of that is the raised pool.

Yeah, it's a raised pool with the outdoor space.

Okay. And then the final one here looks like it's a... Oh, that is the...

That's the fencing. Remember when we were discussing the fencing? That's a plastic PVC fencing that a lot of people are helping themselves to do. That whole house is wrapped in PVC.

Is this all the same house?

Maybe. It has a lot of going for it.

We have to be a little careful, I think, about calling out.

Madam Chair, can you repeat on page two the text for front upon design? Where do you want that?

Well, I think you're talking about the context and trying not to be incongruous with the neighborhood. So I thought it made sense going under bullet point four of core values or three. We're trying to create a compatible built environment that allows for distinct styles. We're considering our neighbors and neighborhoods when designing a structure. So that blurb, to me, speaks to those two bullet points. I'll leave it to you how or whether to incorporate that. But I like the introduction, historic context, core values. I think that's the way we should be proceeding. Under regulatory process, I just I would just call it to obtain a permit to build or renovate in Surfside. Oh, and I can tell my handwriting was hard to read. On the third bullet under core values, I think I was saying create a compatible built environment that allows for distinct styles of architecture. I wrote arch instead of each.

Where is that?

Core values, third bullet point. create a compatible built environment that allows for distinct styles of not each its architecture. Any other comments on page three? Page four? Primary challenges, I would add the sentence beginning at approximately 5,600 square feet per, I would insert interior lot. In the second paragraph under that section at the top, I would say, particularly in light of climate considerations, and then the next sentence starts, instead of starting many projects now, I said substantial renovations will require elevating the first floor. Well, actually, it's true for all new construction as well. So scratch that. It was a little, the language just in the bottom of that paragraph, the combination of tight lots, historic context, and resiliency, I would say requirements, makes thoughtful, context-sensitive design essential. Page five, any other comments? Page six. In the pattern section, Minor point in the intro, I think you can get rid of the commas on either side of West of Harding Avenue. Okay, anything else before we go to the glossary? Okay, glossary. On all the, sorry, we just did that number three, right? Is that where we are now? Sorry, glossary, any comments on the glossary? My only point is we define zoning code at the top of this, top of page seven. So going forward, that should be a capitalized term. So immediately following would be zoning code. There's a couple other instances throughout where I think you're referring to a defined term. Any other comments on glossary? Okay, renovations and single family home additions. So one thing that I think is different here Like, for example, under the architectural style cohesion and harmony, we say facade treatments must adhere to the chosen architectural style. I think we mean original. Because I think the point of what we're trying to say about renovations and rehabs is that we want you to honor what the original design concept was. We don't want you to choose a different one. So I think throughout this section, whenever we use the word chosen, I think we actually mean original. I'm just talking, so if anyone disagrees with me, speak up. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep going. And then on the next page, 10.

What if, I mean, on a renovation, there's a style that is compatible with the surrounding houses that are already existing, and that would change the original architectural style, but would still comply with the surf side sort of architectural style.

I think if you have a legacy home and you want to make an addition, let's say it's like my house and you want to make a glass box attached to my house, something that is not the same style. Is that what you're saying?

No, but this is in general for renovations. I think not only for additions. Okay. So if you make a renovation and you want something different, but that thing that you want anyway complies with the neighborhood, the surrounding houses, but it alters the original architectural style of the house.

Right, like let's say you buy a Mediterranean-style house, but that's not, 10 years later you decide to renovate it, and you're like, this isn't really my style, I'd rather turn this into more of a MIMO.

Yeah. You've seen a few houses like that, a few applications.

Yeah.

Because I'd be okay with that, honestly. I think that there's two things. I think that one is renovation of a house in which you leave the house, like I did in my house. My house is the original house, but I changed the windows and proportions, but the actual shell of the house is left alone. And there's some people, like my friend who presented a house here that I helped in design and now it's being built, they actually put a whole addition to the front of the existing legacy home. that we approved, so you know what I'm saying. It's actually they built. When they make an addition. It's the one on Garland that's being built right now, so I think it has to do with the magnitude of the addition. If someone wants to build an addition of that magnitude, I think that there's, it's gonna come in front of the Board. I think they're still gonna have to be compatible. The word compatible doesn't really mean much until you look at the project, because compatibility is so subjective.

And I also think that...

It's a degree of the renovation. It's the extent of what the renovation is going to be. If you're going to just tweak the existing legacy home, I think there has to be a compatibility to the existing home. If you're going to significantly change or add an addition in front of the house, which you no longer will see the legacy home. You actually... and it's carte blanche, a set of different mix.

I think you can accommodate that concept. I think what we're trying to do is saying if you're going to do a major renovation, at least make the elements of what you're doing consistent within themselves and compatible to the neighborhood around it.

Right.

So maybe we can get around chosen versus original by just taking that word out and just saying treatments have to adhere to the architectural style of the home and be consistent throughout the property.

Perfect.

Page 10. So on the corner articulation and 360-degree design, we say avoid blank walls longer than 10 feet.

Where are you?

Page 10, corner articulation. Where does the 10 feet come from? Is that something we said?

We said that you cannot have linearly, you cannot have 10 feet. You need to have a window.

We did say 10 feet? Correct. I was wondering where that came from. That was part of our notes.

Okay. It was part of one of the previous discussions. Okay. And you're correct.

And we don't think that's too prescriptive? We think that's okay?

I think it's a weird...

I mean, we can just say avoid blank walls and ensure every elevation interacts positively just to...

Well, the problem with blank walls is that they think by sticking one window in a humongous wall, they're getting away with it, which is what all these houses have. So I think that we need to be a little more. OK.

I mean, this is a recommendation if people have a design idea that involves a longer blank wall, we're open to hearing it. Color and texture palette, I think we should point to our paint palette that Carlos put together. And we can even have a page of the palettes and the color names in here. You guys have that?

The only recommendation I would have is if we just cite the code section, it would probably be easier because if you change the paint palette, then you're going to have to change the guidelines.

Yep, fine. Anything else on page 11, 12? I'm on to page 13. So there's another example in the windows and doors section on the first bullet point. Building facade should be clearly articulated using windows and doors that reflect, we can just say, the architectural style, not the chosen. And just search for that word throughout. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. 18 lighting so we sort of break out functional and decorative light features and then we go through I mean is there is there a significant difference in terms of what light color we want the lighting Yeah, just between functional and decorative. I didn't do a side-by-side of each bullet point, but for example, motion sensor lighting I think is not decorative. That's functional. That would definitely go in the other section. But do we need two sections, I guess, is my question. Or can we combine those? I'll leave that to you guys.

We just got a comment on the motion sensor lighting. Should we set something like what we have on light color? Because it tells you it's preferred with 300 Kelvin being the highest. So should we probably put something like that here so they don't have these white lights?

I think this refers to everything.

Everything, even motion sensor lighting?

Yeah, so we're talking about the color. We're talking about, I mean, yeah, we might be able to organize the light section slightly.

Yeah, I think they should be organized separately because you're not going to have the same color for decorative lighting than you would a motion sensor. My neighbor's motion sensor light lights up the whole block.

Right.

That's the thing.

Yeah, it's horrifying.

Most of those lights are really bright.

Well, I think they've already stated in the functional and the decorative light sections that the color is 3000. So how else would you guys recommend that we address your concern?

I think that we have to be very, because it's a real problem. I mean, I think that we should say that no white light of any kind should should be ever be used. I mean, I think that it's the problem is that people, they get away because the motion sensor lights come already with a white light built in into them, you know, and they stick them in every corner of their houses. I mean, I have one across my pool and in the front of it. And literally, thankfully, now the tree got thicker. I don't see it anymore. But it's like she says, it literally lights up the entire street.

Do they make motion sensors in 3000?

You know, I mean, I'm sure that I'm sure. Yeah.

Okay. So do you guys.

Let's talk about decorative lighting or functional light fixtures and I just think it's, it's important to keep it separate because I think we definitely have light pollution in this neighborhood.

Yeah, agreed.

I mean, why don't we just move the light color. To the top. of the section as something that was just more of a preference, not just mixed in there with the rest of them. That's something we want to have as a focus. So here, right? Yeah.

Well, so again, we've got lighting, introduction, then you have functional, then you have decorative. So you're saying move the light color bullet point to the top.

What is the difference between functional and decorative?

Functional would be the motion detector, which would probably come on bright

To me, everything is decorative.

Function, it's... That was part of my original question.

I don't think we should make a distinction between them. I think that's for them to find the right light, but for us just to say that no white lights are allowed. Period. I don't think decorative and functional, because lighting up your yard is always decorative, especially if you're harassing your neighbors with your lights. So there's a decorative component even with safety lights.

It's a security function, not necessarily a decorative function.

Well, it's a security function, but when your lights are shining your next door neighbor's windows.

That's a separate problem.

I don't see any distinction that we're making on color. design or anything between functional and decorative. Do you guys, are we trying to distinguish something?

I don't know why it's two different sections.

Can it just be... That's what I... Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

That it should be just one section.

Just say light fixtures, put light color at the top, add no bright white lights.

Exactly. People can figure that out.

And then we don't have to repeat everything. And maybe we have just a session, a special thing that says motion sensor lighting must also adhere to all of these preferences.

And how can we say, because I experienced this, that the way they set them up doesn't bother the neighbor? I don't know how we can put that.

It says it right here. They shall be calibrated to prevent excessive activation and minimize disturbance to neighbors. What else would you add?

That's exactly what I need to say. I think that's good. That's perfect. It's the angle where they're pointing at. It's all in there.

Yeah, it's included in that. Okay.

There's also ensure light does not overflow into neighboring properties.

That's what we're looking for. Now, the 3,000 Kelvin is preferred, but what I hear and what I like, I think, is that this should be mandatory.

Well, you can go. I mean, I used 2,700.

I never used 3,000. Yeah, you can go. No, but I'm saying maximum 3,000 is preferred, we're saying, but we're saying is not preferred.

I think you can say the 27,000, 3,000 range is preferred.

I mean, you can give... No, because we're saying no white bright light, but how do you define bright? You give a number and you tell them, okay, you cannot exceed 3,000 instead of preferred.

You're just saying make it a hard...

Yes, because that's what we're saying at the end of the day.

Yeah, so you could say with 3,000 Kelvin being the maximum color temperature.

So where did you, you said something about the motion sensors that talk more about the angle? Light control.

Ah, okay, light control, which, yeah. Page 18.

I mean, white light is a big problem. It's a real big problem in this town.

Yeah, no, exactly.

I mean, I bought the house in front of Indian Creek, and I was there last night, and the entire entrance to Indian Creek is white light. I mean, I can't believe they have the most expensive place on earth, and the entire thing is done with white light. You can't even look into Indian Creek.

But you understand what I'm saying, right? If you put 3,000, then that's it. You have no more bright light. That's the maximum.

Well, these are design guidelines. It's not the law. So these are the town's preferred.

So I just keep it.

I'm saying maximum, but we got to make sure that motion sensor lighting comes in a 3000 Kelvin. But so I think we want to keep the motion sensor and the landscape lighting bullets. But I think, well, and the neon lighting, because we don't.

I think the word has to be that we don't like to see white lights. And people get it. They know what white lights look like. Because actually, a lot of people prefer the white lights. They do it on purpose. So they light up the entire house with white lights.

So I think we're just trying to eliminate the redundant elements of the two sections, bring color to the top of the discussion, and then maintain the extra bullets that aren't repeats. Is that clear enough? OK. Anything else on the rest of this section? All right. New construction. I didn't do quite as close a read on this since a lot of it is repeated. So any comments I made to the renovation section would also be made here. Anybody else have comments?

This is pretty good. Yeah, this is pretty good.

So these striketoons of all these illustrations, right? Those aren't going to be there. Yeah, we're not showing them. Okay. I don't have any specific separate comments on this section. Do we want to talk about imagery?

Of the images that they're shown? Mm-hmm.

So we have some new imagery here in this edition?

Of...

So one comment I have is I would sort these by smallest to largest lots. Because we want to do the hardest surf side, I think, is the feature. So you've got the second thing here is a huge 20,000 foot lot. I'd put that at the end and start with the 5,600 size lot.

Well, this one is a waterfront. Right. It's labeled interior, I think, on the.

Yeah, the second one should really, it should be a waterfront double, triple lot. In fact, I'm not sure we even want to include it.

I don't think we should include any waterfront homes.

I think we just get rid of that one. And then sort by the 5600s, sort by lot size.

Or corner lots.

Well, I think the corner lots are helpful.

Well, we have a lot of corner lots. I mean, my house is corner lots, I guess.

But we've got, let's just eyeball the labels. 5,600, 56, are there any images here that we wouldn't, we talked about getting rid of the big one, anything else you would remove, or are we okay with that?

So these are, what are they hinting at? This is a year that they were built, so. This is, these are 30, these are.

We're sorting by lot size instead of area. Ah, got it, got it, got it, got it, right, right. But we're open to doing it in a different way.

Because we're talking about design guidelines, to me, I would sort them out more with the year that we built and more of the style of the house and then the lot size because they're going to the guidelines just to get guidance.

Are most of your houses interior lots?

They're all interior lots.

Okay, great.

Yeah, I just said interior lots.

So Madam Chair, these images were the ones that you provided us and we went on the field and we- Thank you.

Yeah, they're great. Yeah, you're just talking about what makes the most sense.

I think in 89-51, Hawthorne is one of my favorite ones as an example of what everyone should do in this town. And it's not here. I think that we maybe can.

Should we go by era and then lot size? So start with 30s to 40s, small to big, then go 50s, 60s, small to big.

I did all interior, they're all the same lot sizes.

We have more here, too, to incorporate.

But I think that...

So, Madam Chair, the selection you pick and based on our research are from the 50s, all 50s.

I happen to like the 50s, I guess.

Well, this is not the 50s. This is built in 39.

His is 39. They called that out, yeah. But we have that already. So the ones that I happen to note happen to be 50,000.

Well, 50s is good, because 50s is a core. Between the 50s and 60s is a core of this town. But I was absolutely shocked how many houses from the 30s in this town are still standing. It's hundreds and hundreds of them.

So are we going to go by smallest to largest lot size, or are we going to go by decades?

I think Carlos is making an argument for going by decades. Okay. And I'm fine with that.

Yeah.

I mean, I love this. I love this. And you took great pictures. They're very helpful. That's perfect.

And then if it's the same year, you know, do it the smaller and then the larger.

But I suggest that because if we're starting with the 30s, I think that we don't want... We don't... Actually, my friends just bought this house. This... It's also very good because these houses show a renovated house, so it's not It's very helpful to people. They see an image or something that was built in the 50s, but it's renovated today. Yeah, which is great. But I think that maybe we can change, take this out, because this is a waterfront, and maybe we can put a 80, 89, 51 Hawthorne.

So which listing do you have from what they're getting? If Chair LaCour's from the 50s, then you're listing...

These are 30s to the 40s.

So he's going to give you these. Okay. Combine everything, except the ones we decide to delete, and order by era.

And do you like... for the existing legacy home, like the simple description, interior, lot size?

That's perfect.

Simple to the point.

Everything is perfect. I just think we don't want a waterfront lot because they're not really helpful.

When is the waterfront lot? It's the second one on 34.

Bottom 34?

That faces the lake, the lake side of this island.

Okay, so he'll give you those. We'll add it to what's here and sort by year built.

And then something, I'm gonna make a parenthesis here, something that I did, which I didn't know how it fits into here, I don't know in the design guidelines, I took a picture of a house that was just recently renovated, and I think very unsuccessfully renovated. So is this one? Unsuccessfully, so this is 973, I think this is, I have the address here. This one they just renovated in 1930's house and they modernized it where they put the, we talked about this house before, they put a metal roof on the house and they put the dark windows and they completely destroyed the integrity of this house. I was trying to point out of people who have renovated their legacy homes and completely gone against the grain of the houses and achieved very unsuccessful results, which I think that this is one of them, and I think it's this one of them. And I was pointing out how they changed the door, how the door's incorrect. So I don't know how this fits into our mix.

I think that can go more in the- A glossary. Don'ts at the end, right?

So I took pictures of all the addresses because these houses were recently renovated And I think that they are kind of examples of how we would appreciate if people don't renovate the legacy homes this way.

what we don't appreciate. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Are these combined in with the files of the things we like?

Yeah. I just went around and I did the period houses, and I did a compendium of houses that I liked and houses that I don't like.

So it wasn't... Just make sure it's clear to them which batch is which. Right, right, okay. Okay, so that's for the legacy homes. Any other comments or questions or deletions from that group of pictures? Thank you guys for capturing those.

Just one comment. I just sent some pictures that I took a while ago. They were at night and they showed good lighting and good houses. So, sorry, I just sent them. So it's a bit late. Just to show us examples for the houses and lighting, maybe we can use them. There's like five photos.

Yeah, those can be like inserts in the text too, like if we have a good example. I think the only time we should be showing bad examples is in the please don't section, but not sprinkled throughout it. Exactly. Only good examples. Okay, and then we've got the approved homes for reference in section six. We paired these down. Got a lot of Stephen Fett homes. Were we not able to find any other, I would sort these by the smallest to largest too. So maybe the new ones we sort by smallest lot to largest. And have we not approved any other part of Surfside houses besides these three?

We did have a number of other images in here, but a lot of them got deleted from our last meeting. So yeah, this is what we're left with.

All right, well, this will be a work in progress. Okay. And then we'll add the last section.

I think that some of the houses we approved are, we approved them, but somehow we don't want them in the guidelines. Yeah, I think that they're, we want to keep it simple, very straightforward, and very much like, less confusing, let's put it this way.

What are we missing? What other questions or comments do people have? What else is needed from us to finalize this?

One question. We're going to get emailed pictures from you, Carlos.

Yeah, I'm gonna give, I printed this.

You're gonna give us the addresses and we're gonna take pictures? Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. Yeah, you guys, I think, are doing a good job of taking the pictures, these that you took.

I mean, yeah, you need to take better pictures.

I would just give them the addresses and say, like it, don't like it, and why.

Yeah, the address. Okay.

Anything else we need to discuss before we adjourn? And then we'll get... Can we get the final draft in Word in a few days to give any final feedback before the deadline for the March meeting? Yeah. When is the deadline for the March meeting?

I will have to check what is the attorney's deadline if I am given a second. Please.

Yes, please. We'll wait. Right. And then, obviously, it's going to go through three public hearings. You'll have it before you as a board and two times with the commission for the code change. So there's multiple more meetings that we can do.

OK. Well, I would really like to try to get this to February and March then.

I'll see what I can do on that front. I mean, then we'd really need the draft, though, Yeah, the attorney's here, so I don't know what flexibility there is.

Madam Chair, if I may, the line for the town attorney is February 13th.

For a March what?

For the March 10th meeting. So it is about a month before.

We're concerned that we can't hit two hearings before the election, and we're going to get stymied and stuck again. Is there any way we can work this out to go to the February with whatever we've got today, knowing that there's one more revision, cleanup revision for the March meeting?

Chair, the problem I'm having since this deadline was imposed by the commission is that every single department is asking me for an exception to it. And if I open that door, the deadline may as well not have been imposed.

Okay, it's just, you know, planning and zoning is the LPA. We've been at this for years. I mean, I've seen this happen before where we got right up to the finish line, new commission came in, the whole thing died.

But you'll make it to the commission meeting. It'll be on the March meeting. The March meeting.

Apparently it needs two readings. That's my concern.

It does, because it's an ordinance.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just wondering if there's any way we could put the current draft as is on the February meeting. and then we'll work on these cleanup, it's just cleanup. It's like pictures.

And then it would be, you'd have it for first reading on the.

In February and then they'd get it in March.

I'll talk to the town manager and see if he has any input on it. But my initial reaction, like I said, the issue that I'm having is that once I open that door to one person, then I have someone else asking, well, you opened it for them and not for me.

Understood.

So it's really a practice issue.

Got it. If there's anything you can do to accommodate this very important zoning element, I think that'd be helpful.

Understood.

OK. So I think time is of the essence. The faster we can revise, the better. Carlos will get you those addresses tonight. And I think we're good. It's looking good.

And we'll get you the draft ordinance by tomorrow. I mean, that's to the attorney.

Thank you. Okay. Ready to adjourn? All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Have a great evening, everybody.

Thank you.