Personnel Board - Regular Meeting

All right. So order the town of Canada personnel board meeting for March 25th. And pleas Casey Martin Brian Snider Chuck and J. Are there any public comments? [Music] present. So approval of previous meeting minutes for January 28th, 2025. All in favor say I. Move to approve. Yes. Okay. Motion to move to approve. I move to approve. Second. I'll second. Brian. All in favor? I. Yes. talk about I don't know anything. Okay, we'll move on to business appointments. Um and two officers lieutenant officer and officer and then for the sergeants list we closed out the sergeants list and we have here shortly. Anything you want to add to that chief? Uh you know Sergeant Egley was promoted in the fall. Sergeant Chevro just promoted uh last month's council meeting uh and uh both lieutenants now uh hopefully with you

know working with you folks and town council and the manager we will uh this spring I'm I'm hoping we will get a sergeant promotional process off the ground as hopefully also as well as a hiring process too. Was Trevor Enchek the next on the list of He was there it was it was a two horse race for two spots. Oh, right. That's right. Eric went over. So, we Yeah, we're dividing we're dividing up duties as we see fit and and as Mr. Casey just indicated, Lieutenant Angley, since it's in his, you know, ballpark, so to speak, will oversee investigations, uh, as well as a myriad of other talk. you know, he he's out there in uniform and such. It's a it's a new kind of division of duties between the two lieutenants, but Egy will still oversee investigations. Chevre will primarily focus on patrol. Have we had any departures to the force? Uh, knock on wood. Uh, not in the last retired. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Check this. I I skipped over Lieutenant probably feels like forever ago to you. It does. February. And how many do we have? the eligibility list. Can you remind us the names again? You had uh W

halfway couple vacancies in my opinion that I'm hoping this year. We have two spots. Once we create a list, we'll be able one replacing Basil Scott. Yeah. One replacing the retirement of Mark King, I believe, who left us in. So, we've been we've been one person short now about two people. So once we get this process rolling after so essentially Trevor and Chick replaced Basil and now we're replacing Chvor and Chick's open position with a new there'll be a sergeant to fill that spot and then we'll have to put patrol spot. Oh, so two open positions, one sergeant, one patroller. Now there will be patrolling but remember we just will have to take a current controller of the sergeant that passes test and there'll be two questions. All right. New business eventually advertise. Well, uh, we need to discuss changes to the rules regulations before we advertise about amendments to the person rules and regulations of that ordinance that is actually linked into the rules regulations. None of us realized was in

there. Uh, interestingly enough, the ordinance draft that we had needed to uh change back in January calls out two specific sections of the rules that the chief and I recommended that we consider changing. So, as we do this process, it'll have to be voted on by council regardless if we pass the new rules regulations, council has approved also. uh and at the same time we will take this part of the ordinance uh in one action that would happen tenatively tonight uh if it happens. [Music] Well, can uh can I have a motion to go ahead and work and regulations? Don't need to do that. No. A motion to review. Second. Second. All in favor? Opposed? Sure. So the changes that were made this was collaborative effort between chief and I we did have a meeting when we talked with Mr. We also got this. The change we've made will be consistent with process change. There's also a few story change recommendations. I'll call it ease of language. We try to make it a little bit more clear to read and understand. Everybody has to go through either through each section or if you have specific questions. Okay, let's start [Music]

on page three. This was the section that talked about how board members should be appointed to vacancies in order to make this consistent with the polic for all boards, commissions and struck that language and indicated resolution 425-2. And what how does that policy work? I looked on the website, it wasn't there. Somebody emailed me about this. It's in it was a little bit late. So if you read the second page of that and we'll talk about how application received advertise notification process for applicants term limits which are still left from well two terms okay they're not description two terms of three years each um and that had been in there prior. We did not choose to address that at this time. I think it is something consider it's just hard to find the volunteers about that. alternates. Yeah, I noticed that too. I noticed that as well. Yeah.

say two. I'm not. Yeah, that's in section 21B. I think we should actually make it three years. I don't know why it wouldn't be consistent unless there's other boards that have term limits of five years or longer or full. for alternates specifically don't do too much consistency. That's a very good point. Friday. Maybe we should just strike the open. Yeah. Yeah. So recommendation I would also recommend yes answer your question speaking for myself but um I would also recommend we remove the sentence in 21A that starts at all primary board members or alternate board members blah blah blah because anyone who was appointed prior is gone. So we can just strike that whole second part of that paran. Yes.

So that section will end at three years period. And that's confusing to some council to serve for the time of two and three years. But that's the old alternating. We we didn't want them to start at once. Maybe you wanted to make it easier. It's easier for administration to have Yeah, I think that's what we already have. Like we're already Yeah. Now that you move past2 Yeah. Yeah. So we can take two out. Are there current Sorry. Are there any are there currently any alternates or are they both so they would just be scratched now or at the end of their thing? I think when their term expires we should right now we have vacancy in the position we have vacancy in the full board I think discussed council process this year. Who is our current? Okay, so turn expired already.

Yeah, I thought so. And when is Cynthia's expire? I have to look at I I would say we just let that term go until it expires and then but there's a lot of language about how we use so we have to think about that. That's true. to do like a search for alternates. Who is working on this document? Is that you? Thanks. I appreciate it. Okay, we'll move on to page four. Then organization board um I tried to make this easier for you in the first council organiz that same paragraph 2.3A uh Meetings may also be called by the chairperson or by a majority of the other four primary board members. Oh, because there's four besides the chair person. I get it. So, it's not a Okay, never mind. The way this had been done in practicality was the police office

receives the applications. They stamp at the time and they also I hope they take photo ID whenever those applications. Yes. So we were town manager designate but that would essentially be the police department function as it always have. That's a job, right? [Music] Formatting on page seven are there. Sorry, can I go back to 2.7? I can't remember last time I read this, but um in the middle of that paragraph, something that stood out to me was services of a solicitor for the board to be appointed by the board and paid by the town council. Are we supposed to formally appoint Falco? Because we've not done that during my tenure. I don't think we've done that in the past. We should talk about that. But yes, it is the responsibility of town council pay for the solct. Page six, eligibility for examination. So we talked about that formatting on page seven. Page eight just clears up the board council the township.

Um, page 8, section 3.5, second paragraph. Uh, in the case of physical and psychological examinations, the town manager or town secretary shall notify the police officer candidate. I think we should strike the portion who has been conditionally offered a position in the police department. I don't think that we conditionally offer before we do the psychological and physical exams. In fact, now we're suggesting that the physical exam be first. So that's inconsistent with a sequence. Don't be confused between the physical agility test and the physical exam exam. Yeah, you only want to pay for somebody to go get a psych to get a true physical agility testing. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, this is what I do for a hobby. I take home read page 12. [Music] Um, I'm going to put that back in or other offices or agencies designated by town and that will include the police station downstairs. It's a New Orleans town municipal office police station. Can we also indicate that it can be received electronically? We don't want to take I don't think we want to take electronically cheap unless we know we're always waving the fee and photo ID is hard to take electronically. Right. So I think how we've proceeded in recent times is they can download it or fill it out, print it out, but then they need to physically bring it in with their photo ID, hand it in so we can verify their identity when they're

handing in that application. And then if we were to charge, which it hasn't been discussed, but we will whenever we roll this out, that's when we would accept payment as well. You're going to change. I'm going to add that back in. Okay. Page 14. This is a discussion point that uh I discussed with the chief u 60% written 40% u I believe that you want to change that to 40% and 60% oral two reasons number one that read the test just isn't that hard number two waiting the oral exam with a slightly heavier score allows you to really interact with candidates. See if they're a good fit. See if they question it really. So I'm suggesting to change the way that I don't think that you're running into a conflict there. You waited it. so heavy on oral and so little on people would say well you're just trying to picture just if you made it 8020 that'd be a little bit I've seen 7030s I think 604 I think that was a good personally I'm in favor of this but it's inconsistent with the ordinance it is change so that that's one of the two oddities I'll call that I don't understand why it's only certain portions of the rule rules are protective or there's 20 pages of rules and there's

only four or five and I asked our solicitor why he had a couple ideas but what he said is the best way to move forward is strike it out of the ordinance so that change as years go on you may want to change what that waiting is contract talk about lateral transfers and things like that police department. You're going to want to modify the rules whereas you don't want to have to always suggest eliminate those sections or under tonight's review. We should make sure that the rule book is what we like and then we'll make sure the council gets should we also I mean I know that we can modify the rules at will but just to make it a little bit uh the expiration date last a little bit longer on page three where it says um the procedure to fill a vacancy blah blah blah consistent with resolution But can we just say consistent with current appointment policy for boards and commission? Do you have to name a resolution because that could change six months from now too. Where are you? Um you said uh sorry third paragraph of section 21A the last sentence. It's underlined here. Yeah. Should just scratch it entirely. Well, no. changes say shall be consistent with current appointment pol current current council current approved by council policy or I don't know someone can think of the appropriate

wording say consistent with the current policy commissions as yes yeah I think John's going to have to do a search and place with alter or search and delete with alternate. We're going to remove the words alternate. I'm not going to replace. Okay. testing process. Uh page 15 weight eliminated the line of multiplying the sum of these scores by [Music] two possible points. If you take 06 Well, and one of the things we had discussed in the past was the huge impact of the veterans preference points on a scale of 100 versus a scale of 200. So, it's something to be aware of to consider. I mean, it is it's back to what it was two years ago essentially. Great. I believe that requires I think that it's intended for 100 point scale and challenge on that on a 200 point scale. I

think I think it was interesting. Yeah. I mean I totally get it. uh you know that was an issue in my prior town service rules which are very similar and I think that's too examination 3.13 I deleted all of that paragraph here's the main stay consistent. You're still going to deal with the highest 12. They still have to get at least 70% on the exam. Um your interview will be conducted by a panel independent of the board with members appointed by the chief council shall consist of three persons and will be compromised person experience including past chiefs or ranking officers. 10 questions with 10 points and it's independent score in the average of the scores. So I'm curious the do other towns do interviews with police chiefs versus personnel boards? Very rare. Yes, this is this is really unusual. to have citizens making these decisions and I think that people know it's wonderful that nothing against us but they know how to ask them well that's tells

[Music] beauty of this panel could be dynamic. So we get an applicant let's say it's a good systemic other I was going to jump in and tell Amy that too like for what it's worth I've sat through multiple and uh my most recent was a promotional of chief scandals for Franklin Park. So Iowa Township Chief May and West Chief Frank Park gave us the questions. It's much like this. We went through all the promotional candidates, each scored them. uh you know uh Chief Leech uh Franklin Park aggregated our scores you know and um come up with overall scores for each the promotional rankings and we put that in the hands of Chief Leech and his borrow council on what they do with that but you know they then they find had a final like you guys were doing for us had a final ranking list and my experience on the ones I sat through for different communities around here I think it worked really So what John and Maria have both kind of said, you're putting it in the hands of people that uh are best equipped to know the right answers and maybe to try to mine the best information, the most information they can out of each candidate and figure out, you know, who's going to who scores the best, who's going to make the most sense in these roles. I think I think it works. Not I think it's worked in our situation too, but uh as as John said, I've only ran into this yearly.

How long has this you have? But you know the duties of the board changed as time went on. relate this to the statewide burrow pill. Every fur has to have a civil service commission called you essentially are the civil service commission by council that are here to certify development candidates here grievances and investigate any matters that need process in the home world charter it says and any other duties assigned by council. So as time progress and let's go back into maybe the 90s police and 400 people instead of 20 I think that probably administration was overwhelmed. So how are we having manage the process and turn into a panel we'll manage this process probably very helpful at that time so I get narrowed down it just isn't the way it is now we're like what we get last time we were we were very fortunate in the area we had like we didn't end up with 27 but initially we had 27 and that was so much higher than other communities that's really good but you know you take them right over to start to the uh physical agility test fail half right away then they come over take test or two then run exam so that's kind of the history I think of how it was how magnified over the last couple years we changed exactly but this is much more common second class second past townships.

Is there a concern with, let's say, someone from Franklin Park applies and you've already asked the Franklin Park chief, like I know you said you didn't necessarily have to choose that chief, but what if that person didn't want their chief to know that they've applied somewhere else or are they required to tell like if someone from a canless wanted to apply to Franklin Park, are they required to say, "Hey, Chief Pock, I've submitted an application." Like I'm just worried about the is everybody will get down to you know histories and say okay John worked in Hampton worked township it's not very often that they work in other places especially since those don't have part time that can part time base it was common to move around a place or two. Well, now nobody has part unless they got that neck. He's a good guy. They'll have their usual suspects. You know, they kind of know who's normally on each panel unless comes forward. So the panel isn't chosen until we know who's going to qualify for. Okay. So we wouldn't necessarily have to notify their chief that they've applied elsewhere. And in fact, you wouldn't want that or Oh, absolutely. We had a young man who said last time, which can make it tricky for applicants because sooner or later their chiefs or at least it's going to

get back to them that they probably if they make it far enough in the process, we're going to start doing a background check and that's inevitably in my opinion going to lead to questioning somebody in their current agency and you know that stuff will filter probably to the chief. Yeah. So maybe they don't have to say anything up to a certain point, but when they get to the final process, like, oh, I get down to get down to the last question. Page 19. This is the duration of the audibility list changing for a period of two years to a period of six months. That six months another six months that possible one year. Uh this line it's kind of contradicted I think after that board should determine which psychological physical medical test says position qualified medical professional psychiatrist 21 I'm not comfortable with only officer so we that may be dismissed because and then there's another section where it says in addition as so that's the catch all

on two. Why is the worship at the [Music] bottom shall post the Bible like that? Every time you control those 25 changes. waiting for the promotion. We also talked about So the new patrolman remains at 70. The promotional exam is 75. Yeah. holding our promotional guests within their higher standard old set of rules that I looked at which were only in a couple years had that uh new hires of 80%. Talked about that. Uh what we were worried about is is that going to narrow a candidate pool too much? It's kind of like 22. Do you want a 70 to be one of your policemen or do you want to have the choice to let that

70 based on the current status of applications leave that written exams though in order to stay consistent we made the promotional written exam be a minimum of 75% move on to the next Noted that the process shall be administered in the same fashion as uh since we changed the waiting to favor oral we needed to modify 4.9 second paragraph so that there's a tie the highest oral score also duration six months instead of two years for sergeants. Why the shortened duration for the eligibility list? I just don't love being tied to anything for that period of time. two year period. You can have folks who aren't eligible to take the test become eligible changes that you don't know about contract that allows change. I really don't like it. Not to mention that we're streamlining the process as laborious as there can be a situation to where may not happen. Let's say, you know, post we're in a situation now where we're going to have people

eligible high scoring candidates on test. I just really don't know. Let's say they all score 76. you feel like none of these folks are right. When it comes time to hire out of that list, it's up to council to hire out of that list. They look at the names of the chief and say just don't know that I need that list for two years. Have to let it expire. They don't have to take the physical again. No, it does say that they do have to take a physical. They don't have to take a psychological evaluation. Yeah. Does the board have the right to extend it? Which in reality if you're going to fill that position you have a good person there and that's the same way. For what it's worth, if I can jump into and I think we might have broached the subject in previous meetings. So I may be reminded folks the the world we're in right now police wise. There's, you know, everybody's hiring. So a list for two years is pretty much going to be a dead list. And you're lucky if it lasts a year because everybody has a job by then. So, in theory, if we had meat on the bone, if we still have PE candidates out there on that listing, uh they're going to be picked up by other agencies, it's just a uh it's a buyer market and I think a two-year. And honestly, what I had seen for my entire pretty much

career here, most lists are usually good for a year, unlike this where we might have burn and I think we did kind of burn through that list in six months last year. Whereas if you had it hang around for two [Music] years that concludes any of the proposed changes that [Music] I'm sorry, I have just one more kind of big picture question. So remaining for the personnel board duties are hearings, [Music] um, investigations [Music] and scores. Applications at that time as most procedural shows that right this right that's that's it still is very important it's just not really the hardest thing but I hope somebody process the

case that Welcome to Yeah, it wasn't fun. Yeah, let's let's skip that question. So, are there any other any other objections to any of the changes on [Music] that? Have a motion to accept the change. Excuse me. This is Falco. Excuse me. Hi, Falco. I just uh have a couple comments before you take action. I think we I had um sent emails uh to John about since it wasn't on the agenda to have to make a motion to add it to the agenda, which I think it qualifies for something that can be added to the agenda to vote on it. Uh the other question that I have though goes to that issue that I think Amy raised earlier about the waiting of the oral and written exams and how the new changes to the regs contradict what's in the ordinance right now. Um and I guess my question uh to John possibly is is there anything in the works to make that change at the ordinance level? It is. Yes. That will take place at either the that will take place at the April 28th council. Okay. We we had a motion to uh review this before you join. Maybe motion to vote on it. I technically before you can take any action, this is a new law within the last couple weeks. You have to make somebody has to make a motion to add this vote to the agenda and then

you're motion. I make a motion that we vote on this. You have to add it to the agenda. Excuse me. Can I can I just clarify one more thing before you do this? Um since the council is not going to be uh prepared or uh it's not going to be possible to amend the waiting until April um should then these regul especially as it relates to the waiting of the oral and written exams be consistent with that so that it matches the effective date basically becomes in April or at the April council meeting when that vote is taken. Can it be conditional Felco? So, we say we conditionally approve this based on council approving the ordinance. We're in a chicken and egg here because the council changes the ordinance first and it doesn't match the rules and that's also so I would say that your rules here for the reason that even after town council still has to approve also. So, yes, they do first before they take action. very comfortable my opinion I'm no lawyer but I play that you can take an action on this tonight and it's not going to we can't make a list until this is changed until council and I guess the real practical impact of it is there's no testing that's going to be taking place between now and April correct yes so if there's no testing that's going to take place, then the impact of the waiting change, you know, won't be relevant until after the April council meeting. That's correct. All right. Then then I think Amy to to the point that you had just mentioned about it being conditional and council then taking action on the ordinance, I

think that would probably be the best way to approach it to address the chicken and the egg issue. you know, because we want everything to be consistent with both the ordinance and the rules. And do we need a motion to add it to the agenda first? Yes, that definitely has. Yes. So, make a motion that we add this vote to the agenda and second that motion. Brian's second motion. All in favor? Opposed? All right, motion passes. I make a motion that we approve the rules um to be conditionally approved until town council uh approves the ordinance that matches in April or whenever they do. Second motion. We'll play that. A second for the motion. I second that. All in favor? I pass. So all in favor of these changes. Yeah. Thank you very much. Are there any public comments? You have anybody online? No sir. Okay. Public comments and I make uh have a motion to move and then go to question second. All in favor stop the All right.