Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

Jackie is having trouble getting in here. Sorry again. I sent her to Don't have one. Sure. Her her crutches might be getting in the way to log in. Okay, I can I get that.

She's She was Yeah. hurting there. All right, Paul, if you want to start us off. Do we Is is Jackie on? I I just resent it to her.

Okay. I don't want to do anything without, you know, everything happening at once. Yeah, she's call. She's texting me now, saying she has trouble getting in. Should be right. We can start with the minutes or something if you want. Yeah, that's what I was going to do. We've got minutes and and um Okay. Oh, you want me to make a motion? No, we got to get started first. Oh, I got to call the meeting to order. Stuff like that. Details. I know you're anxious to make a motion. I love it.

Um So, what are we? This is the Maynard Zoning Board of Appeals. It is 7:03 p.m. on July 28th, 2025. We're meeting remotely via Zoom and like the meeting to get started. And the first item is there are a couple sets of minutes to review and approve. And so my question is, have you folks read the minutes and confirmed that they're accurate?

Um, I have read them and the only um change I would make is on the June 16th one at the end of towards the end uh my name is spelled without the Y. Other than that, June 16. I'll fix that right now. Okay. There were a couple sets sent around because I flagged a bunch of just general terminology issues. A hearing versus a meeting and who closed what hearing or who closed what meeting and continued what hearing. All those have been corrected. They're I reposted them already.

Okay. So, if you're looking at the the latest set that he sent around where was it about four o'clock today? Yeah. I didn't I I only sent it to you. I just posted it. So, they they don't get it. Uh-uh. Oh, I didn't I didn't know if I got privileged then. You got privilege? Before we go any further, wait. Uh Leslie, where was your change? I'm trying to find it here. Um it said Brandt instead of Bryant. It's in bold print, I think. Oh, there. It's easier just to change name. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go to court tomorrow and get that.

Yeah. All set. We're set with that as amended. Uh Paul's uh had uh corrected in the text uh of both of them uh hearing versus meeting and uh a motion um in a second. So I went to the tape got everything straight. Okay. I had I had one uh one correction actually. I had what Lesie already corrected. She got hers. My name is spelled wrong in one instance in the May 21st meeting minutes. May 21st. May 21. Yes. Yeah, I saw that, Jerry. Yeah. Second page. I don't know.

And you don't want to change yours either. Three paragraphs down. Mr. Colbert should be a U instead of an O. Third paragraph down. Third paragraph down in the on the what I've got is in the second page. Oh, got it. Okay. All right. That was all I That was all I had to That was it. Other than that, I'm good. All right. So, if we're under control, can I get a motion for I have one more, Paul. Oh, go ahead, John. Quick.

Um, two paragraphs above where Jerry's name was misspelled, it says, um, and it might be just me. Uh, propose without exceeding the coverage and consequently negate the need for Americans. Oh, I'm wondering what that that's a very no need for Americans, but you know what for Americans. Oh yeah. Uh staff for indicate probably it's trying to ask Miss Peele to clarify data starts the paragraph.

Um is that in reference? What are you talking about here? This is Almost certainly that the the word should be variance. A variance. That's variance. Yeah. Americans. Oh, correct. Oh, here's Jack. I got that. I changed it. Thank you. Jackie's coming in. Okay. Those changes are made as on both sets of minutes as requested. Got to go. Jackie, are you do you have your ears on? Can you hear us?

Talking to I do. Yep. Now I do. All right. Awesome. So, we were just picking at the minutes from the last two meetings and we had a series of minor corrections. Do you have anything on the last two sets of minute minutes, the May and the June meetings? You know what? I did look them over and I I didn't have questions. I appreciate that people looked at them with more detail. Okay. So, at this point, we've already called the meeting to order. I would like a motion to approve the May minutes of the zoning board.

Okay. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of the May 21st, 2025 um meeting of the Maynard Zoning Board of Appeals as amended. Second. So, Bill, in your corrections, did you fix that? I made a motion because I wasn't supposed to make motions. I did, and we're going to talk about that later, but yeah, I did fix that. Okay. Okay. So, somebody else made Yeah, it's Jerry. Jerry's always looking to get out of here. All right. So, uh, roll call. We have We have a motion and a second, right?

Yes. Brad's in favor. Jerry's in favor. Leslie, are you in favor? Yes. John? Yes. Uh, where are we? Uh, Jackie, yes. And I guess I can be a yes, too, at this point. So now I would like that passes unanimously. I would like to get a motion for the June uh zoning board minutes. All right. And make a motion to approve the minutes of the June 16th, 2025 meeting of the Maynard zoning board of appeals as amended. Thank you. Jerry seconds. Any further comments? All in favor?

Brad says yes. Jerry says yes. Lesie says yes. John says yes. Yes. Jackie yes. And I'll say yes. That passes unanimously as well. Thank you guys. Now to the cases. Both of them are continuences from previous hearings. So I don't have a formal agenda in front of me. All I have is what's on the website. So who's first? We can share it here. Um, first is um Garfield where is Oh, I closed it. Zoe, do you have it handy where you can open it?

Mr. Cormier. Yes. I also just made you the co-host, which you had not been. Oh, all right. That was what was going on. Okay. Um, okay. Do you want to open it or do you want me to open it? Uh, you please go ahead and open it. All right. And we will share that agenda. Boom. All right. Um, this be you can see this, Paul.

Okay. Can you see it? Yep. I got to enlarge my screen. There we go. And also if the B board remembers we're also have at the end of the meeting we have to remember we're electing chair and vice chair again which we didn't. Okay. So first is 30 32 Walnut Mr. Chair. Oh walnuts first. Mhm.

Okay. So this is a continuence of the 30 to 32 Walnut Street continued from June 16th pursuant to mass general laws chapter 40A section 5 Mayor zoning board of appeals will be holding continuence of the public hearing on Zoom video to hear any all persons interested in the application by Daniel Daniel Cormier 30 to 32 Walnut Street Maynard the subject property and 32 Walnut Street is a two family dwelling located in general resident zoning district. Per sections 312 and 83 of the Maynard zoning bylaws, protective bylaws, the applicant seeks a special permit approval to operate an accessory homebased business type B at 3032 Walnut Street and to allow overnight outdoor parking of two additional commercial vehicles associated with the business of the property. Now, where we left off last month was to uh have a site visit after he had done some uh cleaning up and organizing of his business backyard. And I believe everybody has made a visit to his property. Is that right?

Yes. Yes. And so where do we stand now? Um I would like to give Mr. Cormier a chance to speak at this point and describe what he's done and then we can have further questions. Is that okay? Yes. Mhm. So where is I'm here. Ah good. So describe what you you've done if you have anything left to do and just generally refresh us from your point of view and and let's keep it short because it's a hot night and several of us are running without air conditioning.

I want nothing more to be through with this. So whatever I can do to it's it's it's expedite it would be to my liking as well.

Okay. Um uh what I've done is just I think it was obvious from the visit and then the revisit. Um I've lost an awful lot of materials. I've uh put in storage uh some of it. Um I rellandscaped. I created u recreation space. I put up um blinds or screens as you could call it um from the street. Um, I put covers over things that would further uh hide view. Um, move things where they would be I don't know that I was out of any uh zoning uh setbacks, but uh I'm certainly within now. Um I don't think there's much more to add. It's it's just been a complete turnaround. I listen to everything you said. I tried to address every point and you revisited today and I think I've met pretty much all of it. I'm just uh I'm asking for those two permits and it was just something that uh you know I don't think a lot of people cared but uh I'm dealing with the zoning board and I'm addressing their concerns and I think I've met those concerns.

All right. Appreciate it. Now the two permit items that you mentioned just just to clarify so that we we know what we're looking at. Yeah. One of them was for what? Trucks. Number of commercial vehicles. Yeah. Yeah. Commercial vehicles. Yeah. Okay. What was the other one? Uh well to have the business first and foremost. Uh and then the two vehicles. Um I was asking for there's some spraying equipment that I use. I don't know that that was uh something that needed to be voted on. Um what else was there? I think that was it. All right,

Bill, was there anything else from your memory? I think it I think that is the coverage of what he what he was asking. Yes, the the the um original request was to to uh for a homebased business type B use and the um number of vehicles um as you know is limited uh without a special permit. number of commercial vehicles to one and the applicant was asking for a total of was it two I think Daniel let me see here. Yeah, aside from the primary two additional two additional so a total of three commercial vehicles. All right,

any questions from the other board members? Brad. Um, yeah. Wasn't there um something about the um the tents or the um something that was in the original application? And I'm sorry that I don't have that in front of me right now. Um there was some setback issues or something um that was uh part of the original application which was asking to build some build or change or add something to that. No, no, I don't think I I don't have that. Let's see. Let me make sure. There were some there were some sketches as I recall.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we did ask him for some sketches of the sub of the property to kind of so the board would have an idea of what if I recall the application there was just mentioned that a a tent was going to be moved to be in compliance with our setback requirements as part of this. Um it was a it was the the the suggestion was that this was the location where it was proposed to be to in order to be in compliance. Right. Okay.

And that was a 10 by 20 which was 200 square ft which needed a 15t setback. I've reduced that to a 15 by 10 which is 150 square ft which is under the requirement for that 15oot setback. So, I've met I've met the requirements and the requirement is seven feet now. I think you said I'm at seven anyways, but yeah, I didn't put it right on five. Actually, I I'm not sure about that. I believe the requirement is it has to be under 100 120 ft or under. Um, but that that may have that may have changed. Is that true? I've asked I've asked many people several times about this exact detail.

Yeah. Well, we'll find out. We'll find out what what what our bylaws what the state bylaw and bylaws say. So, we're talking different kind of numbers. I think we're talking feet of setback versus square footage because 100 sounds more like a square footage. Yeah, it's the square footage that determines the setback. If you're 200 square feet, you need to be 15 feet from the property line. If you're under 200 square feet, you can be you need to be five feet from the back and there is no set back to the side. the way I've been told the the rule works. So, I'm seven feet from the back and I'm probably four or five feet from the the side.

The the distinction is what qualifies as an accessory structure. That's what I thought. Yeah, right. I didn't realize there was a square footage on it. There is a square footage. I think it's is it 250, Zoe? The square footage just has to do with whether it's considered to be a permanent permitted structure that would require a building permit. But as an accessory structure, the setback requirements are the same regardless of the size of the accessory structure. So a garage and a tent are are have the same setback requirements. Even though you need a permit for one and not the other. And and so do you happen to have what um what it says for general residential what those setbacks are? Um well a setback requirement for the rear is five feet in all zones for accessory structures.

Oh for accessory. Okay. Yes. And that's a side and side and back or side can be on the line. I believe that the side can be can be on the line. Um but I'll have to just clarify that with I'm sorry. I I don't know why I don't know that because I'm usually on top of those things. Thank you.

Okay. So, we we got that under control. So, from the site visit or any other questions that the board members has, are there any? Um, I'm just curious to know what um what will uh what you're planning on doing with um as far as surface where there's sand now.

It's loom. It's just dried up. It's been baked. It's it's loom. It's if you wet that, it would look like loom coming off a truck. It's ready to be planted. It's just it's it's baked so dry that it's turned to dust. Just like the the dust bowl swept away farms. It's the same same thing. It's just doesn't have any any uh vegetation to hold any moisture. Leslie, is that okay? Yeah. I assume it's going to be planted if I did nothing or something.

I mean, is this part of the zoning? I mean, do I need grass? No, it's not necessarily part of the the uh zoning meeting tonight, but I think Leslie has just a general question of interest as to what your plans might be. Not that it's binding. I would rather allow the weeds to grow up and I mow the weeds. I've mowed weeds for 36 years and they look pretty good. I don't have to pay fertilizer. I don't have to pay water. I don't have any maintenance. It just does what it does. I mow the lawn. I keep the the the keep it from tickling my knees and it's it's it's always short. I mow it, you know. It's never more than three inches.

All right. Any any other questions? So to clarify the trucks, um, one business truck and two others. So the special permit allows all three trucks plus a personal vehicle. How does a personal vehicle get involved? No, I because I saw four four vehicles. So one must be personal, right? So the special permits for the three business trucks. That's all we need to talk about. I

Yeah, that's what that was my question. So you just clarified it. All right. Thank you. I took some photos tonight, but but everybody was there, so I don't think unless everybody wants to see them. I don't Okay, Jerry, did you have any uh

uh Yes. And I I I me I mentioned the first part of this when I was on the site tonight. Uh Mr. Columbia has done an excellent job cleaning it up in the past four or five weeks, whatever it's exactly been. Uh I I commend him for that. Um it it looks much much better than it did before. Um there are in fact, yes, four vehicles. I guess one maybe is personal. I don't know. Um, but I have I just have a general issue that it eliminating the the the vehicles question for a moment. It doesn't look like a residential backyard. It to me it looks like a commercial backyard. Um, and sideyard. the other side of the house, not where you walk up the driveway, but the other side where a driveway was cut over the last year or so. Um, and there's rocks or what have you, and there's ladders all piled up uh against the house. Um it just doesn't it it it doesn't in a residential zone area with small square foot uh small footprint uh landl lots. It just doesn't it doesn't look like a residential uh yard. Looks like a commercial yard to me. And I don't know that that's what our bylaws call for is a residential zone. I don't know that I I just don't know that it fits. And I I know Mr. Comey has had this for for years and I I understand it. I get it. Uh but things change and the law changed. The zoning laws changed just I'm going to say this was maybe two

years ago. Bill Ozo may know that point better than my I do, but uh it it just doesn't look like a a residential backyard generally speaking. That's my comment. So, if I could ask, what are the points? You say the ladders. Um, you know, I worked until the the last minutes.

And, you know, I there was more that would be done if I didn't run out of time. I mean, the ladders, I mean, I don't know where I could hide them, what I could do with them. Um, if you're going to allow a business, I mean, you look at painters. I mean, they have ladders. It's it's not something unusual. The house that I have is a three-story house and it needs paint. It takes ladders to reach those heights. Um I I just it houses have ladders. I mean unless you're somebody that doesn't do the work yourself, the painters will come and bring their ladders away when they leave. If you you are doing the work yourself, it requires ladders and you can't buy a ladder and then,

you know, get rid of it. It's not like it happens that quick. Um, so the ladder thing, um, I've talked about the spray equipment that you might have seen at the end the top of the the the driveway and the driveway. Um, it's it's midprocess. I got called into this. Granted, I had an injury. It it slowed the progress, but you know, the there's no construction site on the planet that doesn't create um chaos in order to bring order. And this is what you're looking at. I mean, I don't know how to aside from completing the job, and I can't do it in a short amount of time. You know, it's it's something that does take time to to to build. Um,

and I've been had I've had other other uh distractions. I mean, this the last month I've been chasing this thing. Uh, so what else in the yard did didn't look residential? Um, you mentioned the latter and you mentioned what might have been on the side, but I mean it was

so so Daniel just let me pause you for a moment. I understand you're very sensitive to this, but Jerry commented on the ladders and you commented on the short time that you had to put this all together and I I agree with Jerry who did a great job in what you've done. So my question on the ladders is what's your plan for them now? Is a personal property allowed to have ladders? Yes, it is. And that the challenge here is separating personal from business and and the issues we talked about a little bit last time. And so my question in a general sense is what are your plans for the ladders if any? I I I don't have a solution because if you want a ladder that goes up three stories, which I'm capable of doing, they don't fit in storage units. What do I suppose propose?

I I'm not I don't want to get into a defensive situation. I simply wanted to know what your plans are. If you don't have any, that's okay. I just wanted to know what your plans are. I I don't have plans because I don't know what else to do with them. I mean, I need them. Okay. I don't have a solution. I'd love a solution if somebody has one. Well, I mean offh hand I would I mean Mr. Chair, may I respond? Sure. Are you going to take the ladders? I got my own ladder. Um

uh Daniel, I think there's listening to what the board is saying. What could you do and your response? What could you do with ladders? the board is in a position where they they recognize that there is the question of what is personal use, what is for business use, but and what is going to be construed as business use. And we've run into this before. And so the if it was me, the way I would simplify it would be I if you have a specific space you want for the ladders, you did you screened everything else. If you know they're going to be there, nobody wants to look at a ladder forever if you're their neighbor anyway. Okay. Whether and and screening it, you've done a marvelous job of screening with lattice or whatever, just address it. It should be a simple fix. Whether wherever it is, screen it so somebody doesn't have to look at it. It's no different than if somebody had uh a dumpsters or trash can.

Let me ask this. So, I've got the board coming over. I'm trying to dress this up to make it look as good as possible. And putting a ladder in the middle of the backyard wasn't going to help my cause. So, I left it on the side where they'd been. Um, if you don't like the view of it from the street, then I'll put them in the back. That's a plan to do it. Or screen. Yeah, it's I think if you are with that, I mean, that's what I'll do.

I can't speak for the board, but I'm just responding that if you're asking what, you know, to help you along. Yeah, I would. That would be my approach. I either screen it where it is with something that the board finds acceptable or move it in the back. But just keep it so it's not glaring. If this board is trying to make a determination about is this guy is this his business stuff and they're hearing it, you know, about is it business, is it personal, this takes part of the pressure off of them and gives them a realistic uh solution that's consistent with their bylaw that they have to enforce. That's all I'm saying, Dan.

All right. If we can ask the board if it's all right that I put them in the back, if that would be acceptable, then that's what I will do. the the suggestion that that I would offer here is I see that new fencing on the side and I believe you had some kind of a structure fence on some or all of the back and you could hang uh hooks or pegs. Yeah. And and just put them behind your your uh what is it? The black tents, the one in the back corner and just get them up out of the way. Yeah. That way the dirt doesn't wreck the sliding mechanisms or anything else. I just wanted to know what your thoughts were. I I didn't want to make it defensive. I was just curious to respond to Jerry's comment that they were just there.

Right. I mean, I just didn't have a solution. I mean, didn't know what it it seems it's a defensive situation. It is because, you know, where do I put them? I I made the back look good and now you don't want them in the side. So, I'm going to put them in the back. Now, you'll have a problem with the back. So, uh if you're okay with my putting them behind something and putting them on hooks, I'll do whatever you need. Yeah. So, I just wanted to respond to something that Jerry had commented on that the bylaws changed two years ago and so on. And yes, we did develop the homebased business bylaw to sort of clarify what we were looking for. But to have a business operating out of a residential property has been on the Maynard bylaws for as far back as I can find it, it goes back to 2000 or more. So the the issue here is not a new issue. It's simply trying to u I don't know reel you in to be with what the zoning laws are intended to be. So um sorry it's a late find but we we're trying to make it all work and you have done a very nice job a very good job of what we have seen so far. And uh the one comment that I have is the the tractor because our our bylaws specifically say something about tractors. It says heavy construction equipment on the property is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

And a simple solution to that is to put it under a slightly larger canopy so that it's out of sight.

But right now, as I saw it, it's sort of overgrown and crawling out of the canopy. Well, I it the last I spoke and I'm having a cramp right now that I'm I'm fighting, but uh the last we spoke it was okay to be outside. It just needed to be out of view. It didn't need to be under a tent. So, I thought putting a tent is above what they were asking. Um so, that's what I did. I thought that was a clever solution. You know, you can't see the tractor from the street. I made the uh the blind or the screen or the whatever you want to call it from the street. It was It's well hidden behind that. Um for anybody else that can see it, it's uh you know, they're only seeing a percentage of it. It's only one house.

Yeah. So, and it's not a business item. Well, this this attract

Yeah. That behind that tent there that you see on the end, it's you know, if you look at it from the side view, you can see that it there you go that it's sort of half half there. And maybe that screening is enough. This is simply my my view of it. And so what I'm thinking we ought to do now to move this forward is if we can put up uh the zoning bylaw section 8.3.6 with all those uh parent parenthesical paragraphs. All right. This is the criteria A through N. Yeah. Okay.

Do you have it, Z? Or you want me to pull it up? If you have it close to hand. should be page 30.

All right, we're starting here, folks.

Where are we? 8 836. So what we need to do is go through these criteria. A couple of them leak back to the type A, but the point is if we scroll down and go up onto the next paragraph page, there's a list. That list we need to confirm of what we want to do and what is, you know, an exception that we could put into it. And if we find that we can't make it work, then the answer is we're probably not going to make it work. If we can figure out a way to make each one of these work, great. We'll give you the the special permit. And this is done by vote. And so we want to go through these these n items and understand

which ones are even applicable.

Okay. So we're going to start with with you talking about these Paul right here, the the characteristics here. Yeah, let's move up to the first paragraph just before that because the other three little paragraphs the those three numbered paragraphs. So in addition to those set forth under the A through N groups item one there. Yeah, there you go. We have to look at 104. And then for type B, we have to comply with 833, which is the the general stuff for general provisions for A and B. And here's where we get into a challenge because here we're talking about um um construction equipment and where does I'm trying to find it. Heavy heavy duty

434 heavy construction equipment after the um no commercial trailers number 4833 833. Yeah. Well, the the trick there is that tractor he wants to use as his personal device, not as part of his his handyman's business. So that it gets to be a little gray there. and we look at um item K in 836 where it says heavy construction equipment on the property needs to be dealt with.

So we we have a bunch of things to go through. All right. Can I can I interject something here? Yes.

You're calling it heavy construction. Now, if you went to Tractor Supply, which just moved into town, if you ask for parts for heavy equipment, they won't have any. So, this Tractor Supply that moved into town is a store that cannot cater to anybody within this town for anything they sell. And as far as tractors concerned, this is a category one marketed to to homeowners. It is the one of the smallest uh implement tractors made. you know, it's it's not heavy equipment. It's not big construction. It's it's hard to call it construction because it can't lift into a dump truck. It's not it doesn't lift high enough.

Okay. Okay. I understand. So, what we need to do is go through these paragraphs and just as a general discussion to find out if it makes if if it's an item of concern, if it doesn't apply, and if it is something of concern, Is it something that we can put a condition on to make it work? So starting at 836 one in addition to these requirements provisions of 104 shall apply. And what is 104? We know what 104 is. I will flip forward. It might not be. So,

it's this it's the standard special permit requirements for um general impact, neighborhood impact, whether it's more detriment more beneficial than detrimental and all the conditions.

1042. The criteria for a special permit determination shall include consideration of each of the following. Social, economic, community needs served by the proposal, traffic flow, utility adequacy, neighborhood character, impact to the natural environment, and potential fiscal impact, taxbased services, and so on. That's that's what I see coming out of that. Is that right, Zoe?

That's correct. So, that's the first item to consider. If we're going to do a special permit, those items need to be considered. We can come back to that after we do all the others that are in this list, but that's that's an item to consider each. Yeah, Mr. Chair, just to follow up on that, you're absolutely right. U these are considerations. These are not and and just to show they were addressed and the board the uh any special permit um the board will 104 will apply the 836 uh special permit criteria is unique to the type B and probably would be a little less familiar. So it might make more sense to kind of talk through those first if I may suggest.

Which one? A 83 83 836 findings. You know, the A through that group. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean it it just get is it basically it's stuff that we've done before but it organizes it for you know consideration of each one and then the board can weigh those and then the other stuff you're used to dealing with and you can decide that probably with a lot less uh uh uh consideration. All right. So, the boss has spoken. So, I guess we're going to start with what's on the screen now. The area of building space. And if if somebody could take notes as to which ones are applicable to this,

I'll do that. Okay. Item A, the area of building space exclusively or regularly used by the AHBA is more than 25% of the dwelling. What we mean by dwelling is the owner occupied building. So is your tent area, the two tent buildings, more than 25% of the floor area of your house? So you're taking land area and superimposing it over the footprint of the house. No, the tents

the building space exclusively used by your business which is those two tents. What I'm Yeah. No, no, Mr. Chair, if I may correct, uh the two tents are accessory structure. So it's not a dwelling. Oh, that's why they could they don't have to meet the setbacks. Yeah, the way it is read the area of building space exclusively used talking about a dwelling. That's not the building space, is it? Are you talking about the building space within the dwelling? I believe that that is what it refers to like whether you're if you were running a business out of your home, whether you were using more than 25% of the interior of your home for conducting that business.

Right. Okay. If you want to go that way, what what is the uh the note that we put in there? We say not relevant. I don't think it applies. I agree. I need to have the board members say that. Yes, I agree. I agree. I agree. Yes. Okay. I think that's unanimous. Use of an accessory building by the AHBA. He's got two accessory structures. Are those buildings or am I getting a new grammar lesson here? It's an accessory building. Yes,

an accessory structure. Um, it's considered to be a as um as a structure because whether it's a carport or it's a permanent structure, it's considered to be the same with this garage. Okay. So, that one is a yes, we need to consider. Yes. Yes. Okay. The next item, one or more non-resident employees working at the premises. Do you have any employees? I do not. So, that one becomes not necessary to consider. Is that right? Yes. The next one.

And a nonresident employee working on site other than weekdays between hours and 9 and 5. Again, that's not relevant to what you're doing. does not does not apply. Okay. Customers, clients, patients, students, other patronons of the AHBA on the premises other than those weekdays. Anything there? Only myself. Nobody else more than So E does not apply. Does not apply. All right. More and F more than two business related vehicle visits any day or more than 10 visits per week. In other words, do you have suppliers dropping stuff off or clients dropping stuff off?

None whatsoever. Okay. So, that one does not apply. Uh G, more than two customers, clients, patrons any time for business. And that's it. You just said that one as well. So, G does not apply, right? Yep. Okay. Scroll to the next page, please. Bill, roll up to the next page, please.

Where did it go? There it is. Yeah. More use of more than a total of one on street parking space by customers client. Again, that one doesn't apply because you don't have any customers, right? Okay. The delivery or distribution of products and materials related to the HP other than a passenger motor vehicle or parcel letter carrier. Typical in residential areas. I don't think that applies either, right? No deliveries. Nope.

More than one commercial motor vehicle and one trailer used principally for the business parked outside overnight on the property. So I think we found one. This is one we have to consider. Is that right? Looks like it. Yes. Okay. Heavy construction equipment on the property. And here's where we have a debate whether that tractor is heavy construction or not. And is it business related? Uh it didn't say that. It just says on the property. Mhm.

So it's one we need to take up and and debate. The next one, item L. Noise, vibration, glare, fume, odor is dissernerable, discernable beyond the property line. I believe I believe that might come into consideration. What's that, please, Brad? I missed that. I believe that might come into consideration. Um, we had the letter talking about working on the uh equipment on weekends,

loud noises related to the to the um business related to the you know that the trucks or the whatever he's whatever he's doing there. Yeah. And and the question I have on that memo that was circulated is was that noise happening while he was cleaning his property up for us or is it something that's long-term and persistent? I don't have the answer to that.

I don't know if any of us do, but I would suspect when I read that, I suspected that that was due to his getting the property ready for our inspection. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too. That's my um I think there's more than one letter that was sent out about that, however, that was prior to um our first uh meeting. Let me take a look. I might have it here. I think brought that issue up. Are these are these letters being sent by the complainant? Yeah, it was just it was an email that uh let's see here when originally it would have been with the with the uh so on the agenda package

and that's tricky because it mentioned a chainsaw and when I looked up the rules around noise as long as it's within certain hours and decibb it's okay but I think our question Is is it being done for the business and when is it being done? Is that correct? When would I use a chainsaw for a business? I don't know. But mentioned in a letter. So this brings a tree cutter. Yeah, this brings up an interesting point. If this letter is unknown to the applicant, we need to be able to get it to the applicant so he understands what's being said.

Oh, it's posted on the web. It's posted here. I can pull it up. posted. Yeah, it's on the It's on the agenda, but it say it was uh received just this afternoon. Uh I'll pull it up while you're going through this. Let me just I was trying to find if there you said there was one earlier, Brad. Uh yeah, I felt like the original um it could have been. Yeah, I don't recall. I'll look I'll look for that too while you guys are going. Let's move on. We have just a couple more here. Can you go back to our Oh, yeah. Can you uh Sorry about that. I uh Hey, I got too many things going on here. All right, what's going on here?

All right, hang looking for the letter. All right, let's let's uh Zoe, can you while I'm running this, could you see if there was a letter on the original agenda uh package that we sent? I can't recall. And all it board, can you see the uh zoning bylaws here? There there was no there was no letter attached to the agenda package of the earlier hearings. It was a complaint that came in through code. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah, that's what it was. Okay. We might have that somewhere. But All right. You can look for that as we go through this. Item M, the outdoor storage of equipment, material, goods other than commercial vehicles. And I think the ladders would fit under this category. So that's something we need to consider.

Yep. And the last one here on this list, business activities that take place outdoors on the property. So are there business activities that occur outside? No. I leave, I come back. Work is done on the job.

Okay. So we have a few items to uh discuss here on this group, but also we have to look at um 833 requirement general provisions. uh for this. And if you wanted to scroll back up to 833, there you go. Item one, business owner must reside on the property. He does. The AHBA is incidental and secondary to the use as the premises for dwelling. So, is that the case? It's an incidental event. Brad, you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah. No, it's it sounds like it's uh it's certainly secondary to his primary um primary residence. I mean, he he does live there. He does have I believe he does have family there. Um so, I think that that's number one. I mean, it does have a lot of vehicles, but um but that's not I don't believe is is I think primarily as a residence. Okay, so that one's okay. Item three, no change in the outside appearance of the premises, including buildings and grounds not in keeping with the residential character of the neighborhood.

Yeah, we got some of that going on. Yeah, that that's the one that I've had the most problem with since we first started this, you know, a month ago. So, that's something we we need to reflect on. Yeah.

No. No. Item four. No equipment or process shall be used in AHBA that creates noise, vibration, glares, fume, detrimental safety, and general welfare residing neighborhood. I don't see that as an issue here. AHBA shall not generate, use, or store hazardous materials or waste in quantities greater than normal household use other than as approved by the fire chief. And as you recall, either the last meeting or meeting before when you were describing how you're using one of your vehicles as a rolling dumpster, that seems to be greater than associated with normal house use. I did approach the fire department and they said it was to do with the town hall. Um I went to the town the I guess there's no health inspector now and there's a name

Steve Silverstein is working it was the right acting right. Right. He was going to get back to me and and he didn't think that there was an issue there either.

That's correct. Well, since they they pulled out the concept of that is the fire chief. The fire chief has regulations in the state fire code dealing with dumpsters. And if you're using your your truck as a let's call it a portable dumpster, that's something that the fire chief needs to deal with. The fire chief was was approached. I went to the fire department and asked that office who that the the the person I went to went back and asked the chief and the answer came back that it was a town hall issue that I should go to the town hall. Well, sorry to say fire chief is mistaken.

Yeah, because you know, just to give you a little background, I'm I'm on the state fire board. We write the darn code. So, and this item's been in there for years. So, anyways, that's that's something that, you know, we need to deal with one way or the other because that's part of our list of things to reflect on after we get through this list. Item six, vehicles, parking, and traffic. Not apply. Off- streetet parking shall be provided for all of the commercial vehicles and trailers. And that's you've got that you've got a huge parking space out there for those three or four vehicles. Yeah.

So that so that is something you've done. Any parking area shall retain the character of the residential neighborhood. That's something we need to reflect on. The AHBA any related activities not create traffic hazards and nuisance in public rightways. I I don't think that's applicable. Is that right? Yeah. Motor vehicles used in conjunction with the AHBA and stored overnight on the property must be owned or leased by the operator of the business with the vehicle's principal place of garing as the property address. Is that right? Is that what you've done?

That is correct. Okay. Motor vehicles and construction equipment used from the HBA that are equipped with backup alarms shall be not operated on the shall not be operated on the property. So your big box truck, does that have a backup beeper? It's got a uh kill switch. So do you use it? Yes. Okay. What about the dumpster truck?

It's inoperable. It It doesn't It It hasn't worked. It doesn't get used either. I mean, it's not like it's beeping every day. I mean, it's it it doesn't work for the few times that it does back in the driveway. Okay. So, item F on this list, light maintenance, preventative maintenance only is defined in 837 is allowed outdoors. No other repair or maintenance construction equipment landscape unless done indoors without outward visible audible evidence. Now, what's this 837 special definition? Um, what are we looking for? Light maintenance and preventative maintenance.

Yeah, it's on the screen, Mr. Chair. Tuneups, brake fluids. Oh, that's No, we just want item two, I think. Preventative maintenance. Now, any of those things pertain to the maintenance, which is how it was set up. So, if you're going to do any kind of heavy construction equipment, any kind of maintenance, you need to be able to uh do it in a garage area concealed so people can't see you and people can't hear it. It was the was the gist of that. heavy is a and also it also talks about a time limit of of how many hours you it would take to do a repair.

And then there's also stuff in there about um using um power tools, you know, like um impact wrenches and things like that which are noisy.

Okay. So, one other item that I would like to go comment on here is if I could find it. I just saw it. Um, special definitions 837. And I want to look at number four and 837. So, the question for you and your tractor is 3,000 pounds. I just looked them up and it's um I didn't look up that particular brand, but most of them are between three and seven.

So, regardless of what Tractor Supply sells, our definition is a heavy construction equipment more than 3,000 pounds. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what what is less than 3,000. I mean, I don't know for sure, but I'm going to guess it's at or above. Yeah. So, that is an item that we need to consider as we go through our debate of these items. By the way, were we looking for the letter of commentary?

We were looking for a comment early on from somebody. Yeah, I have it. It on my phone. A letter from what? I I I You broke up on it. Oh, I think this is I think today. Not today's. This is something yesterday. Yesterday. It was one from from a month a month or two ago. Um, I have something here Monday 7:28 2025 at 8 a.m.

That that one was already that one was added to the agenda, but the question was whether a previous complaint or previous issue had come in and that one was filed through um I think directly to the building commissioner and so I that was not put on the agenda at that time.

Oh, okay. Never mind. Okay. So based on what we have, we have a series of items to consider in granting this um special permit to run an AHBA type B. It's use of an accessory building, more than one commercial vehicle in one trailer, heavy construction equipment, outdoor storage of equipment, preventative maintenance, and no change in outside appearance of the premises. Not in keeping with the residential character. And so if we have something that does not fit with those items, we can make a condition or we can say it must be. So

can we um talk about a couple of the items together? Um is that okay?

Which items are you interested in merging? Well, I was thinking that the idea of um the residential character being compromised could also include the fact that there are not only one quote unquote heavy construction piece, but also three commercial vehicles. And there's a third part that um is also part of that about um I think you said nature being something about nature being not compromised. But anyway, um I was thinking perhaps we could address the character of the residential um you know backyard and the vehicles because if we solve the vehicles it could solve the residential character and by vehicles I'm including the constru the heavy construction um digger excavator here.

So I think what you were thinking about with nature is the general criteria for granting a special permit part of that. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Social economic community need traffic flow and safety adequacy utilities neighborhood character impacts on the natural environment. That's it. Impacts. Yes. And and fiscal. That's the overarching concept that we're trying to get to to consider by looking at the specific issues here for an AHBA type B.

Yes. So I'm thinking we start with the the criteria that we just walked through of the end group and a few other ancillary numbered items and say to to mitigate specific items like outdoor storage of equipment, material goods other than commercial vehicles. That would be his ladders and any any other heavy equip or heavy any other equipment that he might have. At one point we were talking a a sprayer thing. I don't remember where the sprayer is when I walked there tonight. Is it inside or is it around the corner somewhere? It was tucked behind those stones at the top of the driveway.

Okay. So maybe that's a good place to start. take it out of a take it out of the original order that we had and the first item would then be outdoor storage of equipment, material or goods.

Yeah, I think it's I think he's done a really good job of making them much more pleasant to view and and we're not seeing very much. I think the ladders perhaps if that um solution to the ladders that was suggested um could be done in a reasonable amount of time maybe that will take care of that. I can certainly create a wall that would house the ladders behind that screen.

Yeah. Or put them behind that tent, the big tent. The the problem is is that if they were short ladders, I could put them in the storage unit. Because it's a three-story house, and it's for my personal use, it it's they're so long, you can't put them in easy places. Yeah. So, so I'll have to make an unusually wide screen to hide those ladders that are for my personal use. I don't I I mean I don't want ladder work. I'm not a painter, you know. It's it's rare that I take ladder work. Those are solely for my own house.

I'll get to you in a minute, Brad. Okay. Um the suggestion that Jackie mentioned, I think, was the one that that I put forth about just hanging them on one of the fences that's behind the the building. That that gets them out of sight, gets them off the ground. Neat. makes it look organized.

Yeah, I think the I think the fact that you do have personal things and business things together um and we realize that they're personal, but when you think about a residential character and all of those things are compounded by being put together. No one that's looking at your backyard can tell what's personal and what isn't. So, I think it's the amount of stuff in general, which of course everyone agrees you've done quite a job with. Um, but unfortunately, your personal ladders are adding to the amount of stuff and that's why it's an issue.

I I understand why you think and the the the the problem that you're having with it or the board is having with it. Um, I just don't know how this it's just frustrating to me to think that I can't have ladders to fix my personal property when, you know, it's only bettering the neighborhood to be able to do that. If I have to pay somebody, it's not going to get done. It's just like the the driveway. I mean, if I can't have the the tractor, if I have to get rid of the tractor, do you know how long that's going to take to get done? It'll probably never get done. So you you're you're you're going on the defense again and and I please don't go there. What we're looking at is for the ladders. We made a suggestion of where to put them. We never said get rid of them.

Yeah. They'll be neat. It'll be nice and neat. So Brad, you had a comment. Yes. I want to sort of put the ladder issue to rest. Um you say that you you work on your house yourself. Why do you need five ladders of the same length? You only need one ladder. The other ladders are now part of your business. There's no way of looking at at looking at it as any other way.

That sounds good and it's the way you might work. But I did the front of that house. If you look at the front of that house, I had bushes on the front. I had one high, one low. I would climb the top, do the high, go down to the low. I had to go around the uh to to have to lean them as far as I had to against the house. It was hard to lift that and move it again. And I used the other one for the other side. It allowed me to get both sides and have to go onto the the low roof. Doing the front of that house was absolute misery. And I did use several long ladders. It made it cuz it it was several coats. It wasn't just slap paint on once and be done. I mean, I put two and three coats. I had detail that had to be chased. It was back and forth all the time. Rather than having to muscle those ladders in different locations, I left them there and got the work done.

It does look like a painting a painting crew or a roofing group that would have some that many that many ladders. It doesn't look like a residential ladder. Most people have one ladder or if they're going to have three different ladders, they're all different lengths. Yeah, but they're not a handyman. They're not somebody who's lived every day by tools. That's my DNA. I live by tools. I get it done. I'm the guy that does the labor that nobody else wants to do. I don't pay painters. I am the guy who is the team instead of, you know, Right. Right there, Dan. Daniel, right there. I think you crossed over into saying you do use them for your work projects. Huh.

Yeah. Because you said you use them, you do the work, and you get it done and so on and so forth. That's part of your No. No. That's my own house. It's who I am. I work hard. I'm I'm insane hard worker. Well, they need to be hung. That's all. Yeah, but I don't I didn't cross over into saying that I do it for work. Those ladders don't leave the house. I don't put them on anything. They stay there. I have to acquire them because of the nature of my work. I might acquire ladders that I got one of those ladders from a one-story ranch. It was capable of doing three stories. They were giving it away. I bought them a short ladder to use for their house.

Daniel, last time when we were out there on that site visit, we saw one of those long ladders sticking out of your truck. So that means you were using it somewhere and you were carrying it in your truck. That's the one that I cut up and is in the back of the truck right now in half.

So the point is we're trying to move forward on this. The ladders, we have offered you a suggestion. Brad challenged you on it. You got the sprayer. If we can get that under wraps, that would be good. And now we move on to the next item. The heavy construction equipment. That that uh tractor thing. it's half into a building or a tent building. Why not just make a slightly larger tent building and just have one instead of private putting that screen in front of it and all and just put it inside a building. Well, let's hope I can do that because if I have to if I I don't know it'll fit in a uh you buy 10 by 15. and it's 150 square ft, which if it's more than that, if it if it will only fit in a 10 by 20, now I'm putting that tent in the middle of the yard because of the setback uh due to the square footage.

So, let let's hope I can fit it in a 10 by 15. The the the tent that you have it in now just needs to be, and I'm taking a guess here, five feet longer. Yeah.

You know, I have a I have a question. If he were to back that piece of equipment back farther and open the back of the tent so he could shut the flap on the front, one wouldn't be able to see the equipment and it might solve the problem of people not being able to, you know, stare at. Would that be okay if if it just like the back was showing a little? Possibly. Because if I remember correctly, there's a fence with flowers on it in front of that tent. So, that might do it without getting a new tent. I'd be happy to do that.

Okay. Next item. More than one commercial motor vehicle and one trailer. You have three commercial motor vehicles and one and no trailer. And last time you were saying maybe you'd get rid of one of the trucks and get a trailer. Still, we're talking three motorized vehicles and and the tractor thing. The little truck can be made a personal vehicle. It can be made personal. Say that again, please. I missed that.

The little truck, which is hardly even it's it's a golf cart, a glorified golf cart. Um, I could take the commercial plate off and put a residential plate, a personal use plate. Now, we're just talking about one truck, which is on on that mini truck. Is there any logo or anything on it? No, the logos are only on the two big vehicles. Correct.

So, Mr. Chair. Sure, please.

Yeah, just a quick thing. When I look at that backyard, there's four vehicles back there. whether they're commercial or inoc. It's unusual looking at somebody's property and their yard having four vehicles in it, let alone not four u you know a Ford Escort and a and a what have you, but a panel truck and a a van and a little you know glorified uh golf cart uh truck which could get brought over to be uh non-commercial commercial u and another truck that is used for storing things that need to be brought uh to the dump that just makes the entire yard look like a commercial establishment.

Yeah, I agree.

It just does. Now, I I I know Mr. Comey, you've said you can't see most of that from the street. I I don't argue that. You're right. I drive by there a lot and I don't look up in your yard. Oh, when I drove over tonight, do I can see a couple of your trucks up the end of the driveway? No, that's fine. They're at the end of your driveway. But then when you go up the driveway, then you've got the truck trailer, whatever you want to refer to it, that you store the the the stuff that needs to get thrown away, you know, in a periodic basis. Then you've got the other small golf cart sort of uh vehicle that you you mentioned over in the other side. That's four vehicles parking in the backyard, let alone anything else. The two tents and what have you. That's four vehicles. I have a problem with that. But

if I may push back on that a little bit, I' I've had this house for 36 years. I bought it with at the time I was able to buy it because the rent would allow the financing of that house. Since I've had that house, I've had tenants on the other side and on my side. And to have four cars was probably the minimum that has happened there. I mean, you've got parents, they're each going to have a car. They both have to work. You've got adult kids. I've had tenants that moved in with two cars, and they had five by the time they left. You know, you you try to control it, but you can't. So, you get their five cars. I I had a point where it was gridlock. If there was snow, there was no place to move. You couldn't put it anywhere. It was It was a disaster. So, I mean, four cars to me is a blessing. What I've dealt with over the years and and you know, it's just to think that four cars is a lot knowing what I know and the the experiences that I've had over these many years. Um, it's not excessive. And and when I look at the neighbors, I mean, I I could go to each house. In fact, the shared driveway that I share with is five cars, you know, and that's a single family, not even a two family,

right? But they're not commercial trucks. That's that's No, that's the only difference. But the number of vehicles, okay, so mine are they're larger than a passenger vehicle. Yeah, we're talking about the number of vehicles doesn't really equate to me. Okay. It's the character. Yeah, it's a residential character. So, we're we're still talking about item J. More than one commercial motor vehicle and one trailer. I think it would be fair to have three. Three what, please?

Three large vehicles. I think having the excavator plus the the three that are already there is just too much. I think that erodess the residential character. I agree. Okay. Well, what what's happening here now is the tractor would have to go away if I'm going to continue in business. But you could rent it.

I'm not going to rent it. The driveway is not going to get done. I'm going to sell the house. That there's just it it I'm not going to rent it because it doesn't I don't have enough time in order to rent something. I'd have to be dedicate my time for a week to two weeks to get that done. I don't have that time. Now I'm paying for a rental for that amount of time. What you what's happening now is that that property is not going to get the driveway done because I can't afford it and I can't renting doesn't make sense. So that driveway is going to stay the way it is until I sell. And when and if I can sell, it'll all go away. Business I'm allowed a business. So it doesn't say,

you know, you're allowed one business vehicle and one trailer. So that vehicle, it is a business vehicle. It is marked as a business vehicle. It is not over 25,000 GVW, which is what the the the parameter stipulates. Um less than um slightly over half of what that uh uh parameter is. So, so just I we're we're getting a little on here.

I don't think so. I mean, the little truck can be made personal. The the the primary vehicle is what's allowed to have a a type B business. So, then we're only talking about the the dump, which that's what the point that we would need to consider. But I don't see where there's the big issue. The tractor's the one thing and I'll have to get rid of it. And then you're looking at a driveway that's not going to get done because I can't afford to pay somebody. That was the reason I got it so I could do the driveway and then sell. All right. All right. So, we we need to deal with that. The next item that I have here, if I go back to my my scribble notes, um the one that flagged here was as as Jackie was commenting on, no change in the outside appearance, including buildings and grounds, not keeping with the residential. Is that is that right, Jackie?

Um yeah, that's what I recollected. Yep. Okay. So item three on 833. So outside appearance of the premises including the building and grounds not in keeping with a residential neighborhood. So the driveway you're talking about is that the gully or the one that we walked up to visit with you? It's the gully. you call if you're calling it a gully. Yeah. Okay.

It it that was so that the rear of the house would become a recreational uh area. Something that I've desired the entire time I've owned this house. I I understand. I I just I just wanted to know which driveway you're talking about. So that I think those are the main items of this before we get into general special permit considerations. Did I miss anything, Zoe?

Um, no. I believe that was it. Let me see. We had B. Let's see. Of the items A through N, we had items B, J, K, L, and M. And then of the 8.33 requirements, we had three, five, and six, which I believe that you guys dealt with already. One second. Okay, I missed on the accessory building, but he does have two of them, and we can bring that up as a discussion. We said L, which was what? Noise and vibration or the just um activity any kind of any kind of uh business related activity uh from the premises, but I I don't remember what you guys decided whether you felt that applied or not. No, because he he does his most of his business work at a customer site.

And that was L of items A through N. No, that L was noise and vibration. N was business activity elsewhere. Okay. Outside, excuse me. Outdoor storage of equipment, materials. That's the first one we were talking about because I went in reverse order just to okay, change things around. Right.

So, we have accessory buildings. We have outdoor storage. We have the tractor as heavy equipment. And we have the number of vehicles and trailers. And so one point you had commented about getting rid of one of your trucks and and getting a trailer. If you did that and you convert your your mini truck to a res res a regular plate, you're down to one commercial vehicle. That sounds right. So that

at great expense. I mean, mind you, I don't there's no payments on that truck. So getting a a trailer is going to be another big expense. So it's just I can sell you one. I got one in the backyard I'm not using. And it actually dumps. It's a dump trailer. I don't know that I can afford it no matter what your price is. But I'm being I'm being facicious, but I do have an extra trailer. Maybe the money you get from selling one of your commercial vehicles, you'll be able to get a trailer.

The other thing is um if you're loading that truck that you use for trash, could not the small pickup be used for trash and just dump it every five weeks instead of every eight weeks? No. Because there's a minimum of $120 I think it is. There's probably more now. It only keeps getting higher. So, it doesn't make sense to make small smaller trips. Um, you need to have a minimum so you're not paying for uh in excess of what you're bringing. I mean, you want to make you want to use that $120, which I don't even know. It's probably even more than that now. Yeah. No, I get it.

You'll pay 120 every time for small loads. It's not financially reasonable. I can tell you what I do because I run a handyman business myself is um I go to Hudson to dump it off. $90 is the minimum charge. $120 $120 a ton and I charge my clients if I have to have disposal. I charge my clients and I put it in the back of my pickup truck and I have it there for maybe two or three days before I get rid of it. But I I try I pass the cost along to my customer. That's the way it should be. EP.

They take everything. That's where I'm going. That's everybody in the greater Worcester area as far east as Bedford, uh, Worcester, Lancaster, they're all going to Hudson. Yep. $90 minimum charge if that's what it is. I mean, it's it it's it seems to going up. It that's what it was. I I wouldn't guarantee that it's still $120 because they're putting in a new facility. They're going three days ago. Three days ago was 120 was $90. What was $90? BP Trucking in Hudson. What was $90?

The minimum uh minimum charge to dispose. I'm I'm hearing $120. I was there three days ago. They're charging me different. Maybe it was over and that that I wouldn't put past. Maybe head over maybe head over the minimum amount.

So, as as we move forward on this, I believe we have captured the uh four or five items to consider before we get into the general special permit considerations. And before we get into that, I want to get into deliberation where you board members talk it through. And I want to ask if there's anybody at the meeting that has any comments either pro or con that we have not heard from yet. Nope.

So we will proceed with that. Um, any questions of the board members either to Daniel or or to uh me or Bill as to what we need to do other than have our discussion and formulate a set of criteria if indeed we wish to formulate a positive special permit application. And by the way, I forgot to say earlier, but John has recused himself from this discussion.

I'd also like to get forwarded the information on the uh complaintants letters or emails. Uh Bill commented on that. Go to the website. It should be there now. And where is the website? Town of Maynard. You can Google that. Um town of Maynard-m.gov. And if you look uh in the agenda center under the zoning board of appeals agenda for today, it'll be as an attachment for resident comment. Okay,

that's it for me. So board members, are we ready to discuss? Uh Mr. Chair, may I make a suggestion before you close the hearing? Oh, please do. You're so good at I was talking and I had it on mute. I didn't realize it. Um that's why I wasn't listening.

Okay. Yes. Um what I might suggest is that the before the board closes the hearing, closing the hearing um will it will eliminate the the addition of new um material to consider. And considering there's a a number of uh details that the board has to get right, it's it's entirely possible that uh the board does not finish and wishes to continue this. And if they did uh wish to continue it one more to allow um any any proposals or whatever to work their way out, it would be an advantage to not close the hearing so we could get the new information. That's just my suggestion. No, that's a good one because I I tend to want to just move forward and then close up everything when we're done.

I mean, and and and if the discussion if the discussion helps Daniel uh understand what the board expects um and it does go long, I mean, we've been going longer than we normally do for sure. and they choose and you choose to continue next month, it gives him the time to work on what he's heard and potentially uh maybe uh everybody's uh good with it at the next time and and it it stops the clock for any um any uh uh code action or anything like that. And um just a possibility. I want to throw that out there. No, no, you're you're you're always right.

Well, I'm always trying to play catchup. Okay. Um, so that being said, the first and major item that Daniel mentioned, Mr. Cormier,

yeah, was he wants two additional commercial vehicles allowed as part of his business permit. That's the key thing right there. and then to have the AHBABBA typeB business is contingent on those commercial vehicles and these other items that we reflected on tonight. So I think the commercial vehicle item is the key. What do we want to discuss with the number of vehicles? These are registered commercial over the highway vehicles. He has three of them right now. He's allowed one by right and he's allowed a trailer by right. So with that, do we have any comments one way or another?

Yeah, I think two is spare. That means he could still get a trailer if he so desires. Okay. When she says two is fair, does that mean the two vehicles or does that mean the the primary and the a trailer? We're still talking that through. So, I think that having more than one commercial vehicle on the property um really compromises um having it be in keeping with the character of the neighborhood.

That that tends to be where I'm heading too, Leslie. That's why I was reminding people that a one trailer is allowed by right and so if he had one commercial vehicle and one trailer we do not offer them any additional commercial vehicles in the permit.

Mhm. You know, there is something else involved here. And and it's not the board's problem, but I'm now having to create the ability to tow as well as getting a trailer. I mean, just the the the the the hardship that this board is bringing to me is it it's I think it's over and above it. But you're going to do what you got to do. You have a board. You have a a responsibility to the town and to the law. It's just not.

Dan, Daniel, I I hear your pain. The however is this has been ongoing for 30ome years. And no, it hasn't. I've not been in business for 30 something years. And if you knew what this house looked like when I bought this house, that's a different That's a different issue. Well, you say 30. I've been in business for 20 22 23. All right. 23. You're exaggerating.

Well, I didn't remember. I'm an old fart. So 23 years, the town has always had a bylaw that says businesses operating out of a commercial or out of a residential district need to be with a special permit. You didn't have one. We're trying to get you one. And to do that, we have to do some stuff. I understand that. I just I want you to appreciate the expense that it's going to take for me to after all this time in order to fit within the bylaws. It's it's it's very frustrating frustrating and costly,

you know, after 23 years and and without any disturbance by any neighbors, you know, and I've had neighbors turn over now. My it's every unit around me has changed over probably twice and nobody's ever had a complaint. This is one person that's bringing this on and you know it's it's he might have made observations that it exists but now we are simply trying to get you to be compliant with the town bylaws. That's it. I get it. At my expense and my payments.

Yeah. But if you've been aware of the bylaws for the last number of years, you might have been able to prepare for this. And how many years have the bylaws been in effect? That's that's my point. As far back as I can find them, at least turn of the century. The bylaws as it states that I'm allowed one primary, one trailer, that's been that's been in there. Yes, that's been in there in the table of allowed uses since way way back.

Okay. So, what we have here and and I'm I'm pushing on the commercial vehicles. He wants two additional besides the one. And what that allows him to do, if that's what he gets, he can also, because it's allowed, get a trailer. So, he can end up with three commercial vehicles and a trailer. I'd much prefer so that if that's allowed, I'd much prefer um that a special permit is for variances, differences to the the written allowable and that would save me an incredible fortune and and just the work in in adding a trailer hitch. I mean, it just that's what special permits are for. Now, we can get a trailer, but what I'm going to have to do to make that happen when I've got something that works. All it needs is that consideration that it'd be allowed in a special permit, which is why the special permit process is there. We're only talking about one vehicle and 25 years in business, and it wouldn't put me through the kind of expense and and difficulty in order to maintain what I've been and nobody's complained about for all the these years. So, I can I can abide by what the rules say. I can get a trailer. There will be no more discussion. There's no special permit needed. But what is the purpose of a special permit if there's not a consideration to allow for these differences? I mean, I'm a 25 year a 36-year uh business um res resident. I've contributed greatly to this town. I've been a fixture in this town. I won the town clock. I was the reason that the town clock kept time for five years.

Well, wait, wait a wait wait wait a minute now. You are so far off course here. We are talking certain items that we have refigured out that we need to deal with to try to get you a special permit. If you don't want a special permit, we can close the meeting right now. I do, but it sounds like it it's I'm I'm being pushed into a trailer, which would resolve the problem and it wouldn't need a special permit. I just what I'm getting is that the special permit won't happen, that you don't like the the fact that it's a a commercial vehicle and that the only thing that's going to be acceptable is that I get a trailer. So, if that's the case, I mean,

no, listen to the question. You have on your request, you want a total of three commercial vehicles. You can get a trailer anytime you want. And if we reduce the number of commercial vehicles that are allowed, you can get a trailer. And what have we gained? So if we're going to deal with this, my thought is you have three vehicle three rolling stock items on your property now. And if we can cut that down to two rolling stock items, one with a motor and one not, I agree. Now, now you're down to something that is almost almost residential,

right? But you're not offering the option of a special permit. You're you're railroading into a trailer, which is a big expense. And it's not just buying a trailer. It's fitting the tree the the the the primary with the ability to pull that trailer. That That's a $50 trailer hitch. It's not a big deal. So, you know, get reasonable about that. We have I have to I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but Daniel, please. The board is not trying to railroad you, and I I don't think that's fair. this is a board of volunteers that's giving their time. It's putting their trying to work out a response and I don't think that is uh I you're probably in in passion, but I I really don't think that's fair to the board. I just

Well, I do I do think it's an issue because one one person just mentioned that a trailer hitch is an easy thing to do. You just buy a trailer hitch and you have it added. But what you're talking about is the vehicle that I'm driving. It's the steps at the back that'll have to be cut and custom made to fit the back of that truck. It's not go out to Tractor Supply, buy a trail edge, and bolt it to the back. That is not I'm not I'm not minimizing any of that. All I'm saying is that I think it it would be helpful to everybody and to move things along. If the board is not trying to rail, the board is trying to work with you to arrive at solutions that are practical and that are consistent with the law. And

working with me is allowing the special permit for the second deal. Anything beyond that is not working with me. It's taking Daniel I I can terminate this meeting right now if we continue like this. The point is we have found five or six items that we need to reflect on and if we don't reflect them on uh favorably for you, you're done. All right, I've said my piece on that. That's where I stand that leave it at that. But let us continue that. Easy for me to do this trailer and and trailer hitch. Let us continue with the rest of these items.

Okay. So, as far as the commercial vehicle piece of the special permit to run the AHBA typeB, that's simply one item. Now, we have the the outdoor storage. Any thoughts on the outdoor storage? We have the fence, possibility to hang some ladders on it. We've got the the the sprayer thing. Is there anything else that we should be considering here that you saw on site today? Nope.

Jackie, were you going to say something or just I I think that um we discussed that and I there were some nice solutions about the ladders as far as I heard. Okay. So, I I think we're working our way through that one. Okay. Uh the tractor uh I think the solution there was to extend the canvas or shed uh plastic shed building to put it inside. Does that work, Jerry? Yeah. Okay. So, for me, that works for me. Can I just go back on one thing just just for a second? I don't want to

I don't want to bel labor the commercial vehicles, but just correct me if I'm wrong. Is the big box truck that's your trailerish, right? That's where you Am I right or wrong? No. No. The big box truck is the the primary vehicle. Okay. And then you've got a smaller truck when I drove when I walked up the That's the driveway today. Am I right? You either the smaller truck, then you got the big box truck. Yeah, they were side by side. Yep. And then you've got the little what you refer to as a basically a go-kart, right? So those are the three. Yeah. And so where do you store things now that you need to bring to the dump?

They go in the truck in in that second truck. The big truck. The big box truck. Not the box. No, no, no, no, no. B. The box truck is a rolling shop. So that's the one you use all the time. Right. Right. And that's another thing is because I'm a handyman and not a contractor. I don't build decks. I don't do large projects. I have small amounts often, not big amounts on a few occasions. you know, it's it's it's just a it's death by a thousand cuts is not the right way to thing to say, but it's just a lot of small amounts that when it takes a while for it to accumulate to the point where I'm not

and and there was the other thing about $120 to pay to the customer. Well, I get it's small stuff. So, charging them $120 where I do only small jobs. I mean, I'm unique in that they are so small that I don't generate a lot of trash. So, to to pass that on to the customer, it it's it's not reasonable. And I I'd have to leave, you know, packaging. I'd have to leave, you know, small amounts of debris with people, elderly people. They can't get rid of that. Now,

I'm I'm go ahead. I'm I'm good with with your explanation. And I was off in my thought. I thought the larger truck was where you store things. I I I don't disagree. I understand. But just a a quick aside on that same thing. When I had a business, I just charged everybody a standard uh you know, trash removal fee of $20. That's all, right? Which which I'm doing. Okay. So, you add all those 20s up and then when you go to the dumping, you paid $120. Yeah. Six people. That's six customers. Yeah. But the amount I'm charging, I can't overcharge for the small amount. I mean,

I agree. the there's some of it that it they would be floored for me to charge more than what I would and it still takes, you know, it's not even going to be $20, but if I charge $20 each, um, it may still take a month before I can I can go to the dump for $120, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. I mean, I can I can definitely try to do it more frequently. I mean, what you saw in the back of the truck for anybody that looked in the back there, I mean, that was my own yard that filled that truck. I mean, so let let's get back on track here. Yep. Brad had a question or comment.

Um, one last thing about the trash. Um, you can take a um, construction bag, put in a little bit of debris in it that you might get from a sighted because you're saying you just have a little bit left. You get a bump, you get a dump sticker, four bucks, put it out with the trash. Problem solved. I've done that before. I've even had to point where I've had a little bit of stuff where I had like perhaps a a door frame I took off. So, I cut it up into a couple small pieces, you know, so it would fit in a trash bag. Put a $4 dump sticker on it. Put it out on the street. Works great.

The problem with that, I don't think that you need to have a rolling dumpster in your backyard that is like the equivalent of a 10 yard dumpster and you wait till you get it filled before. I disagree with that because if you're up I'm sorry, but we're not here to try to help you make your business work for you or whatever the case is. What we're here to do is we're kind of here to solve the problem. Okay? We're not giving you advice on on how to handle your business. All right? Town will not pick up heavy trash bags. We're trying to find something to work that'll work for you.

But you're not giving me a solution. That's not a solution. Trash bags on the street are too heavy. They won't pick them up. So, if I cut up a a corner board in a house, it's going to be too heavy. Okay, now we're moving on. I think I I hope so. Yeah. Is there any chance that we could end the um end the public portion of this and we can go into more deliberation? We think we're ready.

If if we want to do that, um there's another suggestion on the table that somebody whisked to my ear about continuing this for another month. so that Daniel can look at what we're reflecting on and if he can meet these thoughts that we're putting together and come back to us and say, "Yeah, I'll do this, this, and this." Does that meet everything? Otherwise, we can vote tonight, close a meeting, come up with a with a what do you call it? Something to vote on a and then uh motion. You're done one way or the other. Is there a possibility of a permit with a couple of conditions? Yes, we can condition anything we want here.

Okay. And then it could be reviewed in six months or whatever or a year. That's right. We can put them a year issue on it and say come back in front of the board. I'd rather I'd rather not go another month. I think have the amount of time we've spent has given a lot of time for making things right. Jackie, can I respond to that, Mr. Chair? Sure. Yeah. I I I I'll second Jackie that you can respond.

Okay. Um the only problem with that is if uh the conditions if there are other improvements that could be made um that would be become re a reality by next month. It might make the the uh findings because we have to go through the findings either. And so, uh, I if the applicant is, uh, agreeable to continuing and continuing the great progress that's been made, um, and he's heard the board again with with his details and, uh, that offers a possibility where the findings could reflect the current conditions. If new findings right now and say come back in six months, a year, whatever the case is, um, the findings are based on as it is today. So, it not telling the board one way the other. I'm just pointing out you know the avenues uh and and trying to give the best pathways.

So one one thing that we have done in past cases Jackie is continue it and during that continuance since we know what we're going to deal with the next time we meet is to draft a decision with the various findings. Mhm.

And it'll either be uh Bill or Zoe's pen or my pen and we we can't share in public. I mean, that's not a public hearing at that point. It's simply gathering what we think it's going to be. And then we review that at the next meeting. And if the rest of the board agrees, then we move the motion for that set of special permit and criteria. Okay.

And so I'm that's the direction I'm leaning right now, whether where Bill writes it or Zoe writes the draft to say, you know, we will grant a special permit with A, B, and C conditions because we found X, Y, and Z. Yep. But to give Daniel that extra month to uh finish what he was pushing to get done and he confessed the latters were a last minute thing. Fine. Get it done. Relax a little bit. Come in front of us next month and we're done. Sounds good, Brad.

Yeah. Um we did we I think we did this last meeting. I think some of us spoke up and and and told um expressed our concerns and what our sticking points were and that um those I believe most of those sticking points have not been addressed um after today's site meeting. So I don't know that there's going to be any improvement no matter how many Can I ask you what I kick this how far we kick this down the road? What did I not address? Give me the points that you say I did not address. We haven't discussed this mo this this meeting.

Dan Daniel, I don't know if Brad is right or wrong. But what I will ask is if Bill could pull up our minutes from the last meeting because I think we might have mentioned the kinds of things in there we wanted to look at. I mean, I spent the last month addressing everything that I knew of, right? And he's telling me that I didn't address them. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't, but our minutes that we just voted on are supposed to be what we did. Okay, let me hang on. Let me pull them up here. I'd like to know what those are. Yeah, we're we're we're getting there. He's getting ready to pull them up. The draft minutes were also on the website if you'd wanted to look at it.

Yeah, I've just got the final ones that I mean that we approved tonight. I haven't had a chance to put them on the website yet, but uh that was for 616. Yeah. All right. Here we go. And uh I'm going to share

and see if I make it a little bigger. Oh, that's great. So there there's there's Brad's comments right there. Number of commercial vehicles to one. Screen the tractor and remove visible debris. So several points. I mean what do I see there but one? There's three. There's three under Mr. Schultz.

The the tractor was screened. I built a a through a lot of effort made a a screen so that it can't be viewed. You know, you're saying that it can be viewed from the backyard. So, I screened from the street. Um, but it's not like nothing was done there. I mean, certainly I've done quite a bit for that point. Uh, clear any visible debris piles. All the debris was removed. I mean, I don't know what debris that you you're you're seeing that was not removed. Um, reduce the number of commercial vehicles to one. I mean, that's the one thing that how do I just get rid of the vehicles? I mean, there if there's a point that that can be uh uh saying that I did not address, it's only that top one. That's a big one.

But it's not a number of like Brad Schultz is telling me like there were a number of things that weren't addressed. They were Daniel. Daniel, I put too much effort in this last month to be told that I address the the points. Daniel, that's why I asked to have the minutes put up so that we can reflect on our memory as to what it was. Okay, fine. I digress.

All right. These digressions, besides wearing our patients very thin, is wearing our next uh hearing person very the wrong way. And so, let's move this thing forward. We've been on this now two hours listening to all these issues and we haven't gotten anywhere except to say we're going to draft a decision with various findings between now and next month and we're going to put those out for review next month at the meeting. We'll talk it through and we'll go from there. You heard what the board wants now, what we've reflected on. What

the one vehicle thing? I had forgotten that last time, but it's still there. And frankly, I brought it up this time as one vehicle and one trailer, period. And so that's that's right back down where we were thinking last month. So, let's let's go with that. And I would like to get a motion to continue this until our August meeting if we're having an August meeting. Is that true? Uh 25th. Zoe, do you know off hand if there were any dates on the um calendar? We scheduled them already. I don't remember if there any changes with that holiday or anything like that. Let's take a

I've received no nothing that would cause me to reschedule or cancel any meeting. No notifications of anything. Oh, no. But but is it on our our um do you have our our um calendar in front of you by chance? Let me just Yeah, hang on one second. Yeah, I just because you know if there might have been a holiday or something we forgot. I don't I don't think there's anything but we've missed elections or stuff like that you know and then we have to do the whole Bear with me one second. When we did the when we did it originally we would have checked it. So let's see 25th we have a zoning board of appeals scheduled. Okay 25th. Yes.

All right. So, I make a motion that we continue uh this hearing until the normally scheduled meeting on um August 25th. And that will be a virtual meeting. Second. Great. All in favor? Yes. I I Brad. Yes. Thank you. Brad said yes as well. All right. Our um next item. So, we'll see you a month from now, Daniel. Yeah. At what time? 7 o'clock. Okay.

Mr. Chair, might we make a site visit again like we did this time? I was thinking that, too. Thanks for bringing it out. We should I motion to that effect for what time? So I I would add amend the the first motion uh for continuence of the of this hearing until August 25th. Uh that portion of the meeting would begin at 7 p.m. as did this evening. Uh but we would make a the board would make a site visit uh between 5:30 and 6:30 as we did this week. Okay. Do I get a second? Second. Leslie seconds. All in favor? I

I Leslie, yes. Jerry, yes. Jackie, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm a yes. Okay. So, that's under control. We'll see you in a month, Daniel. All right. Very good. Thank you very much. Good night. All right. I next uh Okay. Do you have Do you want me to pull up the agenda, Mr. Chair? I've got something here. What am I looking at? We're not on Walnut Street anymore. We're on Garfield 25 Garfield has continued um this subject property. There was a a little bit of a kurluffle uh on the last hearing. Um I believe the Oh my goodness. Is the applicant still here? Yeah, I'm still there.

Oh jeez. There. Okay. Well, well, f first of all, all right. Thank you very much for persevering on on being here.

Not a problem. So talk about your kfluffle there bo the kfluffle was just a scheduling kurluffle and it was uh the the um there the applicant had been working with the building commissioner and uh on some plans and uh just a misunderstanding on the scheduling. Uh the board was uh foresightful enough to continue the meeting so that the hearing stayed open at the last minute. Um, also the applicant did come in and mention that it was bringing in some amendment plan, amended plans. Um, I gonna uh Zoe, I'm going to turn it over to you for a minute. I think you're we're familiar with the um the specific plans if you have them there.

Sure. Yeah. First of all, before we get into the detail, we have to open or continue actually open the continued hearing. Yes. Correct. Uh we haven't done that yet. Correct. So, I know we're excited to get this in and out and done. Fortunately, I have a fan on my back, but still, it is hot and sticky in here. Anyways, let's move on. So, the next public hearing is out of 85 Garfield A continued from 6:16 25 Garfield. Excuse me.

Did I say it wrong again? Yeah. Pursuant to Mass General Laws chapter 48 section 5, Mayor Zoning Board of Appeals will hold a remote remote public hearing continued on Zoom video to hear all persons interested in the application filed by the owners. Ted and Elizabeth Kbla 25 Garfield A. Maynard is subject property 25 Garfield A. the pre-existing non-conforming single family dwelling due to insufficient front setback 25 ft required but they only have 13.9. The home is located on non-conforming lot in S1 single family zoning district. Non-conformity is due to insufficient size 10,000 required and 8,000 ft provided and insufficient frontage 100 required 80 provided feet. The applicant are requesting a variance granting relief from section four of the bylaws to construct an addition to the property that would extend the existing nonconforming front setback and create a new nonconformity by exceeding building coverage limits. 15% comma 1,200 square ft allowable and on this reading it's 21.3% 1703 square foot proposed and I believe those numbers have changed. Is that correct?

That's correct. Okay. So we missed talking last month so now we're here and bring us up to date please.

Sure. All right. So I can just give an introduction to u what Mr. Burke has brought to us to take a look at and let me just share my screen here. Okay. All right. So um the new proposal um is a reduction of the proposed um addition from its original um size which was one second. My cat has decided to take the opportunity to walk in front. Um the the original proposed size of uh 660 765 square ft. Um the new proposed deck size is 423 square ft and um in it now includes a rear deck. Um so there's been uh let me see if I can have a good trick. I can take these two and um put them side by side so you can actually see them next to each other. Okay. So the original is on the right, screen right and the new proposal is screen left. Um and this would be it would represent um according to the building commissioner's calculation um 2.275 over percent over the coverage limit. Um so going from uh so from 15% allowable to uh 17.275% 275% proposed as opposed to 21 and change proposed in the original proposal.

Okay. Zoe, could you make these two diagrams the same size so I can think it's the same property? Yes. You got a 90 and a 125 on? Uh, yes. Um, so one bigger, one smaller. Yep. Yep. Yep. Sorry. It's uh I need to make sure because these scans were not necessarily done at the same scale. So, one second. I got only one screen and Okay. So, yes. All right. Now, they are the same. Excellent. Appreciate that. Sure.

And so, the footprint that I'm seeing on the new one on the left is he trimmed it from 20 feet down to 16 feet. That's correct. And the going back distance is sort of about the same. the the uh enclosed area has gone from 40 feet to 28 feet and now there's an additional 12 feet as as a rear deck instead of uh enclosed. Okay. And the percentage that the building commissioner supplied is that including the deck or not?

Um let's see. Um, I think it's including it's not a covered deck and so it wouldn't be calculated in in building coverage. Um, so I believe that from what he sketched out that it was um, let's see. So it would be if you can read that sideways 1,200 allowable 99 938 or 939 existing 241 allowed beyond with a 423 ft addition. That's 182 over which is uh 17.275 uh over

two% over. Yeah. two two and two and three two and a quarter percent over. Okay. So, where I think we left this off and and it's it's taxing my feeble memory, but I think the issue we had was what's the hardship? And so now we're getting close to the range where it might be dimminimous. I'm stretching that a little bit, but I'm thinking it might be down to where it's not a big deal anymore. So,

I believe that that I can if you if you would uh like to recognize the um the applicant um to comment on any other aspects of the application. There was no no other no other materials were submitted other than the revised plans but the reduced size of the proposed addition. Okay, you are right. I was getting out of sequence again. No, no. I'm just saying if you if you want to to touch on that. Um I I don't have anything to to inform that from my material. So the applicant may want to uh it's his application, right? So go for it, Jamie. All right. Um sorry, my name's Richard. That's my sister's computer.

Oh, sorry. That's all I'm reading is the window.

Sorry. I know that's kind of weird, but that's okay. Uh, thank you. Um, I appreciate the board for extending um to the to the following month. I do appreciate that. Um, yeah, we reduced it um so now um the work area is gone on the side and we reduced it um the from the 20 ft to the 16 ft. Um, now it's basically just a bedroom, bathroom, and a laundry so that it's all on the one particular floor with the kitchen for the applicants for their age. So, um, and the deck was just added on to so they could cuz they don't have a deck. They just have the the front porch on the front. Um, so I was just trying to, you know, give something they can enjoy off the back and it's not covered. Um, so, uh, I I almost reduced this in half from the last time I, uh, made the application. So,

Sure. And how high off the ground is this deck? Uh, same same level. Same level as the first floor. So, it's uh, it's going to be probably maybe 2 feet, if that. Okay. So, it's reasonably close. Yes. Okay. So, I I've said my initial comment thoughts. Uh board members, comments, please, questions, please. Anything you have for uh Richard?

So, the the driveway is off of Garfield and it it looks pretty short, right? It is. It's it would still um still remain along the side of that um on the other side of that 16 ft. I I don't pointed out to you.

I mean, it looks good to me. Yeah, me too. What are you whispering among yourselves? I missed that. That we think it's a good change. Okay. Now just just remember that we have to find a hardship unless we can convince ourselves it's very small of a change over the limits. But the limits that were read is we have insufficient frontage, insufficient lot size and exceeding the building coverage. And that's a big lift for just saying it's a little bit. So,

well, the if you're uh Mr. Chair, the um the pre-existing nonconformities of frontage would not be exacerbated. There's no new non-conformity being created other than that of lot coverage. Thank you. I'm glad somebody keeps me in control. And did you was 2% 2.275%. Yeah. Okay. Khan, you had something? That was my question. Thank you.

So, just for clarification, could you repeat that at the two 2% of 2.275% over the 15% lot coverage maximum allowable in the zone. The the lot being undersized uh as a as a pre-existing non-conformity and the setbacks being pre-existing but not altered by the proposal. Thank you. And what sorts of things might qualify as being hardships?

They they would have to um be due to the um well, we were just discussing this today, the soil conditions, the topology, the um the nature of the the landscape of the lot itself compared to other lots in the zone. So, um, it it has to be a hardship that's due to the the particulars of the lot itself, not personal hardship held by the the owner.

And so, the only thing I can add to that for this particular application is that it's a nice lot. It's flat, but it's small. And so by having a small lot is that the hardship that we have to deal with in a way because it's it prohibits them from doing this um like configuring it any other way I guess I mean that other than building up.

Yeah. So the other thing I see comparing these two diagrams is you're extending the nonconformity on the front lot line. On the right hand diagram, you got a 25 ft setback dotted in there. And on the left one, you're just acknowledging where the square of the new structure will be. And it's within that 25 ft. So that's still an issue. Is that is that correct? Yeah, we're still we're still following the same

same frontal same frontal as as what was proposed before by the surveyor. So, yeah. And and that is um where where was it? It's uh 25 ft required and you got 13.9 ft and you're going to extend that 13.9 ft along that frontage line is the way I'm reading this. I believe it's 19.8 ft. Yeah, you're including the front porch which we're not adding on. Okay. So, you're closer but you're the way that dotted line is on the right hand diagram that's still within the building. So there's something there. Yeah, that

there's this this five feet between the uh exterior and this the hang on I have drawing tools. So that that is still consider and here's the current front of the building. So this is so even though that right hand diagram is not what he wants, the left hand diagram is running the same frontage line. Correct.

Very. Yeah. So, he needs that five- foot relief for his frontage. That's that's straightforward to do. That's that's not a heavy lift. The heavy lift is the percentage, right? Because that's that's the two issues that we have to deal with on this one. The side setback's okay. It's the percentage coverage and extending the front setback, the nonconformity of the front setback. Okay. So, any other questions, comments from anybody on the board?

I'm tired of doing all the talking. That's the thing. But you're doing a great job. We're learning. Yeah. Yeah. We're we're learning from you.

Well, one thing uh Yeah, I could share a screen if you want. just uh just looking at uh uh zoning map of that area and that you know in the our S1 it seems and some of the board will appreciate this there's it's a little bit um inconsistent uh with the way the S1 was designated here and it's adjacent to a general residence area. Um, I do see a couple of lots that are about the applicant size throughout the next couple of streets or something, but by and large, um, it's one of the smaller lots in the S1. It's probably more suitable for general here. I'll share if you board would like

and and if you made it general bill, does that change the uh, two nonconformities? Oh. Um, I don't know. Look that up. Okay. So, here's what this is a subject here. And so, this block, it's kind of smaller and then across the way is a little bigger. These guys here are smaller and then they go more back to for the S1. This is probably not a good This is a poster child for our project that we're kind of working on really when I think about it. And you see the general the proximity of the general residence. Um I would say that these the this lot, this lot and this lot are disadvantaged by being in the S1 neighborhood with such an undersized lot. I that would be my thought. But uh second question, what did you ask me? Well, just comparing the criteria, the the setbacks for both the general and S1 is 25 ft. So, that that's still an issue. The square footage goes from 10 down to 7,000.

That's correct. So, that basically relieves one of the issues, right? Well, no, wait a minute. Excuse me. I'm I'm I'm wacky. 40% building coverage. And so yeah, because it's only 40% it is 40% of 7,000 he gets that one goes away. Yeah. And so all we have to do is Are you saying Are you saying that you're working on changing the zone? No. No, that wouldn't be that this property will

No, that's that's No. No, I don't want to misrepresent that at all. A project that that uh a couple of the members were working on. It's been on hiatus recently, but it is because of the um erratic uh lot shapes in some of these areas. They're not suitable for the district they're in. And S1 is cons. You could see that the in this area, I mean, there's there these are undersized lots. Undersized lots. Uh, and I'm not I all I'm saying the only point I'm bringing up is that the smaller lot in this property probably is at a disadvantage because the S1 does uh have a higher um or a lower coverage threshold than

other and and so by losing that extra it's what about 20 uh 28 2,000 square feet. Yeah. Under just some food for thought. Yeah. And so if we look at it that way and say, "Yeah, it it because of the way it was zoned out 14,000 years ago, it should have been a general size rather than an S1 size. In which case, this the coverage is irrelevant because he's well within the coverage at that point. And it's only the extension of the setback because the front setback is the same 25 ft for both. It would be a special permit request, right?

If it were in GR, it could be done with a special permit, right? And and a special That's why I say it was easy to do an extension of a of a non-conforming front line. As you say, that's special permit. So, that one would work fine. So, now if if we're in agreement with this, we just have to figure out some way to make it hold up in a court of law if it ever goes that far. In other words, say it accurately. Is that does that make sense, guys, ladies? Yes. And would we have to declare it a a dimminimous situation?

It would either be dimminimous or the the other argument would be it's more like a designed general lot than an S1 lot. And if it's a general lot, the percent coverage is not an issue. and it's only the extension of the front setback which we would offer as a special permit if it was a general, but it's not. It's an S1. And so somehow we got to cover both of that in our phraseiology of the finding. I think the fact that it's a a corner lot and therefore you're not infringing on a side neighbor um makes it

except except where this construction is. It's on the side neighbor side, isn't it? Oh, there's there's no neighbor on the other side either. The house is there. It's not a building. Uh that corner of that lot that's not theirs is not buildable. Okay. I think we had So that's all woods. That's all that whole corner up around that that round area is is all it's woods. Uh and the house the neighbor neighbor's house is further up the street. Yeah. And I think we had letters in favor of the building. Correct. From the neighbors. I think I remember that. Your memor is better than mine sometimes.

So I think I think this is where we're at. Does it make sense what I tried to outline logically? Brad,

sorry. I had a sorry, I have a question that may you may have already answered. I um I lost power to my computer, so I had to step out for a couple of minutes to get back into the meeting. Um as I recall last time um our cons the only concern that we had um was the percentage of coverage um to to making it conforming and non-conforming because there are several nonconformities to the property and the um this addition was only was going to affect the final uh nonconformity which was the coverage. So we had some concerns about that. So they came back with a different plan which was still over the percentage of coverage by 2.275%. Um what what does that translate to in an actual square footage? You probably said that and I didn't hear because I was logged out.

The proposed size of the addition is 423 square feet and it represents an excess of I believe 187 square ft from the allowable maximum. 187. So you're to to get that back into into uh I'm sorry 182 over 182 feet. So you're you're what are we so what are we looking at? I mean are we looking we're looking at four feet more off one side or what what are we looking at to to to make it so it's conforming to the coverage? Well, the building is what? 20 feet on that long side.

28 feet. 28 feet. Yeah. So, but the proposal is only 16 ft. We're Because we're not talking about the deck. The deck wasn't going to this. You pull this back up. I apologize for this. I'm sorry that I things happened lost my power. So, here here we have the um it's the the the new the new proposal is on the left. The original is on the right. Yeah. So he'd have to nip that room by six feet, seven feet, which makes it not much of a room,

right? Can I also bring up the the point that um the the farmer's porch off the front is not considered a Massachusetts living area, but I it's you guys have a bylaw that anything with a roof, but if they go and sell that house, they cannot include that front porch as living area. And that's almost 180 square feet. Well, we're not we're not talking about living area. We're just talking about covers. No, I I understand that. But they can't use that 6 months, seven months out of the year. The front the front porch. You follow what I'm saying? It's like But you're considering it living area.

It's not considered um Sorry, just to interrupt. It's not considered living area, but it is considered to be coverage for the sake for this in the sense that it's a a building that has a roof over it um for the purposes of you know, we were we were discussing things like um rain infiltration or um other impacts on the lot by having a roof. So, okay. So, back to Brad's question, Zoe, if you could use your magic pencil. Yep. And draw through that rectangle from northeast to southwest about 13 in from the 28 mark.

Hang on one second. Trying to get this thing to go away. So, actually, Zoe, if you can Oh, the other way. Zoe floor plan. It might be easier to look at. No, no. Let let me let me explain this. So, go from about where the six is on the 16 and draw it up parallel to the 28 to where it runs into that zigzag upright this way. Yes. Okay. And so to answer Brad's question, 182 feet would throw away anything to the left of that line. So this is what you'd be left with.

And anything there is your left. So you're looking at So um so if you went to the So what you're saying is that the area in that square footage so so to stay I'm sorry but um to stay to stay in in the 15% range you need to have how many square feet 200 let's see hang on a second a total of to to bring it up it can be 241 1 is the maximum addition that they could have. Yes. Okay. So, so basically that's you're looking at 241. You're looking at a a 10 by 24

area. Yeah. Well, it's 28 feet the long ways plus Well, I mean, you could cut it down into I mean, it's a cookie cutter, so you could put it any shape that you want. But my point is it's almost cut in half of what he's asking to stay within coverage. And maybe while you were uh disconnected, we were talking about if this was a general residence, he would be fine. The only the only issue would be a special permit to extend the front nonconformity along the existing building line, right? But it's not. So that's

and so if that's not to me that's not a point. So I guess I guess we're trying to figure out is is what is what is a good uh a good compromise? He's only over 2.2%. Which turns into how many square feet? 182 over

182 feet, which is the equivalent of of a 28 foot length. That's like you're talking about more like four feet, right? Three feet, right? So the way I see it is we have a couple of ways to approach this since several of the neighboring lots are in general and this would not have been a problem and this is basically adjacent to them and it becomes a problem and we look at what the hardship is. The size of the lot can be considered as a hardship because of it what the neighborhood is like. Another way to look at it is the 2% or 180 square feet for this is a dimminimous event.

And so we have those two ways to work it through because the numbers are much more manageable now than they were uh when they first approached us.

I'm inclined to go with the dimminimus. I would agree because because if you're looking at 200 or 128 feet, what did you say? 200 182

182 ft. Yeah. Okay. So, [Music] yeah. So, you're you're looking at a half a foot basically six inches along the 28 foot length that is it's over. So the way I would like to propose our findings is that it is dimminimous and give the numbers but it is also a neighborhood consideration where the adjacent buildings or properties are of the general character rather than an S1 character. Does that make sense? Oh, Master Bill. Well, I I in where you're going with it, I agree with. I think my phrasiology would be that this is an area that the the board has previously identified. um that there are some inconsistencies where the S1 zone is applied to properties that are clearly not of the size and uh to the restrictions and are pre the hardship would be that they're prevented because they have a undersized lot from having the typical amenities of the neighborhood.

So is this meeting being recorded? Yeah. Good. Because you just wrote the decision. Oh, there are no fewer than three zones to be found on Garfield Avenue. Really? Three? Wow. So that's

So I I would suggest that we have made some findings, right? And we've had our discussion all in this open meeting. So I don't have to worry about closing the meeting out of order. And is there any other discussion points that we want to ask Richard or debate amongst ourselves or are we set with this as a possible finding and resolution to it? Um have we had um any input from a butters?

The memory of of Jackie said that we did last time. Yeah, we we had um we had people um I remember we had people that were on the Zoom meeting. We had neighbors right two neighbors that that um that spoke in favor. Right. That's right. And they were about good. That was in the Was that in March? Yeah. Two months ago. So where are we? July. That would have been May June. May May sorry.

Oh god, wrong one. So, I guess the only the only comment that I um would make that I'm kind of curious about is that if it's only six and a half inches along that 28T that were that would put this into into conformity. Um, why not just take the six and a half inches off the the length of it and then and you don't have to be in front of us at all.

I think your your math is wrong. Yeah, your algebra is wacky. It's 6 and 12t a little bit. Um, it's Well, you said it's 128 square feet. No, no, it's it's 423 square feet, which is itself in excess of 182 over what is allowed. So if they were to reduce the size of the proposal by six and a half feet of width, then they could and it would cut the the proposal in half. Okay. So it's 182 in there. That's that's that line I had Zoe draw approximately across the box.

Okay. Divided by 28. Yeah, that's six and a half feet. Okay. Yep. All right. Thank you. I'm sorry for my math. That's all right. It's late. And I assume your air conditioning works as well as mine. It's doing pretty good. I got the old school one. Hey, I haven't had to change my shirt during the hearing during our meeting yet. So, we're good.

So, what are we ready to do? I I would like to make have somebody make a motion to the effect that we've sort of tried to outline it that it is dimminimous and our findings one it's dimminimous two it's very similar to the neighboring general residence items which case it would not be a problem. So, do we have to close the discussion part of the meeting first or we don't we don't have to. Oh, all right. Well, you Yeah, you'd want close of public hearing. Well, then we can't hear.

Oh, if if you still want new information. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you never know. We might. But let's Very well. I I just assume get the whole thing open and done because we don't have a big audience here. Okay. So, I make a motion to grant the variance uh well to grant relief from section four of the zoning bylaws to construct an addition to the property at 25 Garfield Street. Um Garfield A, excuse Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, there's a difference. Garfield A.

Okay. to construct an addition to the property at 25 Garfield A to extend the existing uh nonconforming uh front setback and create a new nonconformity uh by exceeding the building coverage limits. Um and the findings are that uh there are inconsistencies in the neighborhood in terms of the um zoning and that the request made by the homeowner is deemed to be dimminimous.

And we do want to go through the other two uh determinations here. Oh. Um, that the literal enforcement of the provision of the ordinance or bylaw would involve substantial hardship, financial or otherwise, to the petitioner. Um, and that the desirable relief may be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without nullifying or substantially deriggating from the intent or purpose of such ordinance or bylaw. Do I get Do I get second? Yeah. A second.

Okay. And lastly, just may so you can amend a little bit your determination uh on two and three. Could you just give a little bit why? So you did on one we talked about that was consistent with the other areas. It was smaller. Um and that the the home was consistent with the other surrounding areas. Oh, but little enforcement. I would just clarify that um what you in this case it's connected to subject property so something that the board oh um smaller lot for example

uh yes this um also given the fact that the lot is small and that um that it on two sides of the property. There are not um other residences because it's a corner lot. Um and that um somebody help me out here. You're doing great. You're doing

You should take notes, too. But you're doing great putting it together. Well, I think too that the neighbors, you know, it's not detriment to the public because the neighbors already said that they were okay with it. Yes. So, there's a bunch of findings that go with this. We we sort of hashed them around in different ways, but you know, the neighbors find that there's no detriment. We find there's no detriment. There's a bunch of them like that. And Bill Bill can clean it up. He's good at cleaning up our our goblygook. Yeah. So, are we all set? Do we have a second? Sherry, did you second it? Yes, I did.

All right. And no further discussion, right? So, all in favor? I see a bunch of hands. Jerry's yes, Leslie's yes, John is yes, Brad is yes, and I'll be a yes. So, it passed unanimously. So, at this point, I'd like to put Bill on the spot to give the applicant a timeline of what happens next. Uh, yeah, Zoe, I think Zoe, you want to do it? Sure. Um, so, uh, congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank you.

There is, uh, there is now a 20-day appeal period. Um the well there's there is a 20-day appeal period that begins upon the date of the recording of the decision of the town clerk's office which we will try to expedite in order to help that um period of time uh pass as sufficiently as possible. um that 20-day appeal period once elapsed, uh if it elapses with no appeals, um then that's the owner's obligation or the applicant's obligation to have the decision recorded at the South Middle Sex South Registry of Deeds, uh in Cambridge. And once proof of that um recording is returned to this to the office, then um there will be no further obstruction to uh application for the building permit. Anything else? Tab.

Oh, I think that's it, right? You're muted again. Muted. Oh, I just forgot what I said. No. Yeah, that's Zoe. Got it right there. And when we send the uh we'll send um the um applicant a uh copy of the the uh decision once it's recorded with the clerk. Go on the clock. There's instructions that will come in that email. exactly how to proceed, okay, with it, but I think you're generally familiar with it. So, well, we'll we'll reach out to you and um yeah, we appreciate your patience on all this.

Yeah, and I was going to reiterate that too, Richard. I mean, this this has been one hell of a night for us and we really appreciate you hanging in there. I I appreciate the board and I appreciate the decision. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Good luck. Thanks again. Have a good night. You too. Now before we go to the next motion which everybody is dying for

according to this we have to item four on our agenda is an election of a chair and a vice chair for FY26. And I I tried to pro protect you, Jerry, because I think we had just voted you in, but it turned out that your your uh what do you call it? Period of vice chairing runs out the same time mine does. You're interim. I I feel so bad about that. That's terrible.

So, we we have to uh uh have another vote for another cycle. If somebody else would like to step up and take that position, that would certainly be okay with me, too. I I'm thinking I would volunteer to be the uh the vice chair and and I and I like Paul as the chairman. Well, I was going to nominate Jerry as the chairman. No, no, no. That's not happening. So Lesie, Jackie, John, thoughts. I don't think I can be. I think I'm a rookie.

Pay my do my time. No, but but are you in agreement with whatever Brad said or Yes. So you you think Brad should be the vice chair and relieve Jerry of that very strenuous position? If if he wants to be fine with me. So, is that a slate of officers that I hear in front of us? I'm stuck with this again. I was going to say, Paul, you're up for it. You do it well. Whether you've got whether you want to or not, I guess.

I I tell you, not not out of school or anything, but our our first hearing tonight, I I was trying to figure out how to deny his permit and just move forward. I agree. He was right on the edge for me. And so if somebody else wanted to take that on and do that, boy, it should have spoken up on me. Oh, it's tough. Well, you know, it has never been our job to solve an applicant's problem and we certainly gave him a lot of good solutions.

Yeah, he's too busy arguing.

Well, you know, you make a good point. We, you know, I think this board and um in general, you know, we're trying to show paths to success where possible and I think that's in the best interest of the town and everything and you can't, you know, it's a very difficult sports had some tough ones the last couple years and they're going to be they're going to be some coming up still probably we don't even ever thought about. Um, but I I think going forward with the idea, how do we make it work? And if it's not going to work, here's why it's not going to work, here's if it can work, how you make it work. You know, I take that approach with pretty much every applicant, you know, and um uh you know, a lot of it's on the um you can't do that for them. But I I you know we try to work with applicants offline quite a bit too. Now not in this particular case we haven't done it as much but but often you know we we'll we'll sit down with them and that's that's why we were asking last year when the question came up about why are we um why are we not getting applicants or why and why the ones that we get we're not you know there's not a lot of denial stuff. We try to weed them out and if it's not going to work you I wouldn't waste your 280 bucks and your mailing or whatever. But I think this board's been very very diligent and and um worked hard where it's we'll see.

So anyways, what I'm hearing is that you guys want me again for a year and yeah, Brad is volunteering to be my support staff if I can't make it. Oh, good. Is that is that what I'm hearing? Yeah. So, so I need a motion to that effect and a second and then a vote. All right. To make a motion to uh nominate Paul for chair and Brad as vice chair. No second.

Okay. And then a vote. Anybody in favor? I Oh my goodness. Oh yeah. How many do we have to have? Just a majority. Yes. I didn't hear you, Jackie. Are you in favor? Um, yes. I didn't wasn't sure if I could vote. Yeah. You're a member. Yeah. Yes. I'm going to vote twice. I I thought was going to answer. Yes. Yes. So this this should end the meeting tonight. But one one other thing before you do end that, Mr. Chair. Yeah, because I'm not

I want to make sure with that chair that we're going to uh the board uh are there any objections to continuing with having the chair assign decisions rather than requiring the full board to come in. Okay. Um, and that's something that we probably should take a vote on just for and make a motion that the chair be allowed to sign on our behalf. I second that. Yeah. Okay. And then all in favor? I. Yeah. Jerry's yes. John's yes. Leslie's yes. Brad's yes. Jackie, yes, too. Yes. Okay. So, we're all yesesh. Mhm.

So, just sort of like a followup, I spent what was it two hours today in the lovely company of Bill and Zoe hashing over stuff and it got pretty lively at times about stuff. And I I'm I'm a little burned up, burned out right now, excuse me, about all of that stuff. So, Zoe, could you sort of summarize what we talked about and where it comes in to hit the rest of the board?

Uh, it was a lot of stuff. Um, it was a lot of stuff. Well, okay. I think that um we this is this is this is everybody's tired so this is better served for fresh discussion at a later date but um I think what we what we've been trying to do internally is to develop a set of guidelines that are both internal for the board and also assisting applicants to understand how their application will be reviewed by the board and to give them a a more holistic understanding of how the board is going to be going about making its decisions both based on statutory requirements that bind the board's authority and also the more I guess you could say holistic view of uh the interests of furthering the zoning bylaws, the interests of policies in the town and things that are not necessarily um you know chapter and verse of the zoning bylaws that you can quote. So, it would be helpful to have a meeting, have a board meeting in which we could talk about making something that describes, you know, when you bring a special permit application before the board, here's how they're going to approach this. Here are some of the things that they're going to take into account. Mhm.

Um it's not exhaustive, but it's both helpful to someone who might be new to the board and also helpful to an applicant to give them an idea of what they're really supposed to be advocating for, how the decision is arrived at. One one thing that we spent quite a bit of time on with no real resolution except uh the favorite word of both Bill and Zoe is this thing called Nexus. And it goes back to my request a while back and Jerry I think you made a motion to it of if we're going to require let's say dark sky or plant a tree if you take a tree

or pvious pavement or a litany of other things where do we get the authority to be able to even ask that and how is it connected to the project? Yeah. And it's it turns out it's not a simple list. That's that's what I learned from today's discussion. It's not a list. It's can we follow say ch town dreams in the various town documents of what they would like to see for improvements

and how do we sneak that into a zoning issue that doesn't get us into trouble if the guy doesn't want to do it. If we deny a permit because he doesn't want to put in a dark sky thing, do we have any grounds to to argue against the superior court when they take us to court? Because if there's no nexus, I mean, I think that means connection, but that's a word that the town likes to use. If there's no connection, how can we substantiate that? We need that. And that's the kind of stuff for a later date to try to get everybody up to date as to what we can and can't ask for is the way

and or I'm sorry to interrupt you but andor if a thing is to be asked for how a decision is is written in order to express the fact that this is being this is this condition is being made due to the particulars of the the issues at hand due to the spe due to the specificity of the application at hand as opposed to a normative principle that it's good to have these things as in this this addresses a problem or this is going to mitigate a potential problem because of the facts on the ground

and how it's related to the request is the key and and and this all was uh I mean this is not a new issue with uh any sort of takings or or eminent domain or any restrictions placed on property. this has been hashed out but in general we just have to ensure and and we'll have we haven't done anything that I don't think works on that but we just want to make sure that everybody has an idea so that when it comes time to um create a condition where we may be uh having specific conditions how they relate to the permanent hand and what the intent is and how it's legally justifiable so that if somebody says you Well, you know, why do we allow this extra coverage of hardscape and um we can say, well, you know, because X Y and Z and we mitigated it by requiring permeable pavement in the driveway.

And we say so, so nobody's going to look go to nobody's going to say, well, oh, duh. I don't get that. But we just want to make sure that we stay in that that mindset. And the nexus just means the connection. And I look at it as a connection that's easily explained and understood why this connects to this and why it's done. a lot of things that um that the state has which defines zoning boards um parameters, their abilities and what they're what they're allowed to do, what they're not so much what they're not allowed, which I guess is what we're talking um um so it's it's there's some stuff there, but I don't quite understand it all. I've taken a couple webinars on it. Yeah. But I I don't know, you know, because it's all everything that the state puts out is all in um in lawyers terms and

it should be in planner, not lawyers. It's designed to be it's designed to be ambiguous, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a good point. and and and the one thing that that really threw everybody and this is what was was really kind of um the genesis of the conversation was that when we worked with a couple of petitions ago, we talked about downtown overlay district special permit criteria that we don't always deal with. We've deal and so that changes things completely. There's something, you know, where there's a whole new set of things to mitigate. It's nothing nobody's gone off course. there's nothing to worry about, but this is something we're going to talk about uh when we have a upcoming meeting agenda that's that's free. And um and the idea is that Zoe's uh started a a terrific um draft uh with Paul on uh some of the um uh zoning board rules, regulations that we hope to adopt and for too long and just help us and it's all good stuff. So, I just wanted to get you guys up to speed on this that, you know, we're talking about stuff. And the proposal was one of our meetings when it's pretty quiet and we don't have these long drawn out cases that we could spend more time just hashing through some of these details. Maybe put a draft up on the screen and and look at some of the issues and what are we referring to the town bylaws? Are we talking to the the golden dream report? What do you What do you call that, Bill?

The master plan. Golden tree. Yeah. Because I would call for that better name than that, the golden tree report. But do the anything in that stand up to the scrutiny of a superior court challenge? And I don't know. And so we need to get ourselves together so we understand how to do some of these more interesting cases when we get them. Oh,

so quick quick quick quick thing to that point, Paul, um and and to Bill's point, we need to wait until we've got a relatively quiet uh month where we've got a real quick hearing and gives us some more time. Why can't we have a couple of meetings in between those with the full board with of as many of us as can make it? I mean, you know, not everybody's got a ton of spare time, myself included. But hey, if we need to go spend an hour and a half, you know, mid August, uh, discussing, you know, these points so that at the end of August, we have our regular hearing and if there's time after that, we can still discuss, you know, more of these points, too. But waiting another month and then another month after that or maybe two months, it it drags out. I I agree with it and I'd love to see it move quicker. That's my two cents.

That That's an awesome proposal. I'm for it. The however is Zoe's time in preparing whatever she needs to prepare. I can work with her on some of this stuff, but one of the points that we came up with today is how much of her time is available to even draft our regular stuff, the rules and regulations stuff. And so maybe it's not the August thing which is like two weeks from now if you want to do a midmon but maybe the midepptember one if we can want break it into midepptember so we have our regular August meeting at the end of the month whenever that date was 25th. Yes.

25th. Yeah. And and then we look at midepptember if that's okay Zoe I'm not that's fine with me. and and if you want to call, you know, to call a special meeting or, you know, have a have an another scheduled meeting that, you know, that's certainly fine with me as long as um just we work out what the scheduling is um with all the other stuff. So between the two of us, we'll, you know, I'm not Zoe's not going to be alone this. So I mean,

so if we have our August meeting on the 25th and one of the agenda items for that meeting would be to agree to post the public hearing notice for this midepptember thing. And if that works, then cool. And I don't know you guys schedules. We've been I've been trying to keep it once a month just so that we don't get tricked by a short turnaround. But if we can meet say that two weeks out Monday kind of thing. This is Monday, right? Yep. Yes. Yeah. For a couple more hours at least. Yeah. Yeah.

And just, you know, make that commitment at that point because I don't know what our schedules are going to be like in September until we even get close to it. Is that is that okay? Does that work? So when when so so Paul to your point so if we have this meeting which is just us basically to discuss uh how we kind of move stuff forward does that have to be a posted meeting schedule you know that way it does it does it has to be a meeting posted meeting it doesn't have to be a noticed hearing because you're not going to be changing the dialog it has to be a posted meeting so the public can 48 hours ahead okay yep I think September mber would be a good target date, wouldn't you think? So,

yeah. And um if I'm not mistaken, it's not necessary for the scheduling of that item to be an agenda item on a forthcoming meeting. The the decision can be made to to announce and post a public meeting essentially at any time. Um it's it's not required that that the announcement be itself posted. Yeah. That for the fact that you're going to be posting it later. But but the reason I put it there is just as like a tickle file to say Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think as an organizational thing, that's fine. But but if it turns out that that there's we come up with a date that works for everybody between now and then and the next meeting, we can we can set that date and we can post that, you know, early if we want.

Yep. Perfect. Good. Okay. So, with that, I need one more motion tonight. I move we journ. You got a second? Brad second. All in favor? I. Yes. All right. So, thanks everybody. Excellent meeting. That really was very good. Very good. It was hard. Thank you very much everybody. Thanks folks. Have a good night. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye.