Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. At 7 PM, I'd like to call the City of Martinsville Planning Commission meeting for Tuesday, July the 22nd, 2025 to order. First, if we could have roll call. Richard Baston here. Steve Bod here. Jim Burkart here. Joe Disney here. Rick Dural. Caleb Forester here. Rick Peacock here. Ann Miller.

Jason Scott

here. Troy Swan and myself, Marilyn Cider. Okay. Next, we have the presentation and minutes dated June 24th, 2025. Have all the members had a chance to look over the minutes? Yes. Is there any corrections or amendments that we need to make? I make motion to approve the minutes as Jim Burkhart makes a motion to accept the minutes as presented.

Steve Bod second second. All those in favor? I. Okay. Next, new business docket number PC25016 is a preliminary plat for Artisian Place. Address is on Artisian Avenue. The owner is Habitat for Humanity of Morgan County. Mr. Chairman, can I make a statement real quick? Uh Steve Bod, I I volunteered on a group that helped um advise this development. So, I'm going to recuse myself from any discussion or vote on this matter.

Okay. Thank you, Steve. Same with PC25017, a continuation. So, Steve will not be involved with 2516 or 2517. 2517. Okay.

Okay. Who do we have here for the presentation? Good evening. Uh, Mr. President, uh, my name is Joe Cauldron. I'm an attorney um with Barnes and Thornberg at 11 South Meridian in Indianapolis. I represent Teen Investments who's the applicant in this matter and the one following. Brian Donado from Teen is with me tonight. Um, I'd like to hand out um an exhibit uh booklet to each of you who will be participating. While he's doing that, I'd like to ask Mr. Strader has all the certifications and everything

notification, green cards. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

While um Brian and I might consider this all to be related to one project since the agenda uh and all the notices uh related to two. The first one 2516 relates to a a primary plat application uh that would subdivide uh 10 a little more than 10 acres uh into eight lots. And you can find the proposed primary plat in tab 7 of your booklet and it'll fold out to 11 by7. Earlier this month, I dropped off full-size plans um to Gary and uh to be uh distributed to each of you as plan commission members as part of your uh ordinance. So, this is a shrunken version of the primary plat where you can see uh the six lots that will be developed for single family homes by Habitat for Humanity. Uh my client will be developing lot seven for uh rental town home development and then uh lot eight or the block is uh remains for future development and will have to come in for its own um further split if it's going to be split uh more than uh one lot. Uh there will be public rightway dedicated as part of this um as you can see um on the plan coming off of Artisian Avenue. Um and that would meet uh all of the city standards. Uh we sent out notices, haven't heard any uh comments from neighbors. Uh we believe that this primary plat uh does meet the requirements of your

subdivision control ordinance. Um I'll have Brian uh step up and um make any comments he might want, but I have a feeling more of his comments will be related to the following uh agenda item related to the development plan approval. So do you want to say anything to this or wait till development? Yeah. So with that, we'll be happy to answer any questions that um you may have as planning commission. So the first question I have is looking at this and looking back at what we was presented in February. Um I see a day care on the end lot and now you have nothing on the end lot. So, it appears that you've put the daycare inh home daycare in with the clubhouse. Is that what I'm seeing?

And have vacated the in lot. That is correct. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, Brian, to answer the question specifically?

Hi, my name is Brian Deno with TNH Investments. Um, yeah, to answer your question, I I believe the original presentation had the the daycare separately. It's now been moved um to be part of the clubhouse. So the clubhouse will be on one side, the daycare will be in the other. It's designed to essentially look like a a town home. Um so it'll it'll look similar to to the other um apartments. And I'm also noticing that the original what we had come before us shows a separate playground and now that playground has disappeared because it appears the the town homes have been moved down on that side of the street. There is still a fenced in area that would be a play area for the daycare. Um I'm I don't necessarily know whether that would include a playground part the the daycare provider world intends to furnish that space. Um we don't have we don't know specifically what they would put there. [Music] Joe, are you speaking of the full playground they had for the residents?

What? The residents kid that were like the full playground, right? Correct. you you were looking at well and I what I was looking at Mr. Baston was the uh in the original there shows a playground behind the daycare in this in lot that has now been vacated and then a playground area for the uh town homes and now I don't see the playground area for the town homes is gone. That's just real quick what I'm seeing.

Yeah, just just to clarify that there's the fenced in space that I spoke about, but there is currently not a play a specific playground for the for the towns. And how big was the uh original daycare and how big is it going to be now? Believe it was originally anticipated to be about four or 5,000 square feet and and handle 40 to 50 kids or something like that. I I think that's correct. And now now it's anticipated to be the the final size is is still a little bit up in the air because there was a recent change to the law which

yeah I thought maybe is this is this still legal to do it this way? It it is still legal to have an income in home daycare. We will have to meet additional um requirements to basically fire code requirements. So it'll it'll have to be uh built to meet as if it was a commercial space. So that's we're still sorting through that a little bit and may need to in one story. Uh correct. It is still intended to be a one-story space. So my guess is that the space will end up between 1500 and 2,000 square feet.

And I got another question. I guess I and I'm confused about it a little bit and I don't know this looks like an email from somebody and on the third page it says the Milton family lot will be separated from dividers seem as the roadway is and there's that's the end of it there's no to the

I think I have one second let me see if I whatever Okay. Sorry, can I see exactly? Yeah, sure.

I think I have it on right there. If you look on the third page, That is I I guess I can talk about what I think that is. Um I believe you have in front of you the color diagram. The the plot plot gets colored. So there's uh green, yellow, orange, and then blue

of the plot. Yeah. Yes.

So the green is obviously that is the 34 town homes plus the daycare will be on the green the green area plus the storm water retention for for both the single family lots and the and the the town homes. The yellow is the is the six single family lots that that will stay in Habitat for Handies uh ownership to be developed in the future. Um and then the orange section which I believe is what that comment was referencing is the is the part of the road that that will be um ultimately dedicated and turned over to the city. Um, and the reason for that is, I think, primarily because the single family lots are on there, um, versus just being something that's part of the of the town homes.

And so that road will continue on as a parking lot. Correct. Basically, it it continues straight through there and it stubs into into the the blue area. Yeah. The block one. Correct. Yep. And then the parking is off of that. Okay. But that would be under private ownership, priv private maintenance, the green area, correct? Y

and I obviously this is the next item, but there is more details to that with the the site plan submission. Are there any other questions? So technically in the red will be the city street stop right at the parking lot.

That is correct. That correct? Yep. So technically the city plow truck when it snows go around there and you stop right there. Okay.

I I would I think and we can pull it up. I would assume that the engineer has thought thought about that a little bit, but I'm going to look at the drawings here and that there would be a place for them to pull push push it off the side pile. Well, to move things along, Rich, while we wait on an answer for your question that you brought up, I see we have in attendance this evening our fire marshal Mr. Charlie Frer, you have anything that you'd like to speak on, Charlie? You can come up.

So, the only thing that I've got, and I think they're going to get into it here in a little bit, is with regards to some of the questions you asked about the daycare. Um, once we started pulling everything, that is a commercial space, commercial building, so it has to follow the building of fire code and that's where we're hemmed up right now. Um during the course of the meetings online with the developers, their design professional and the daycare operator, uh we asked how many children, which is a big thing because that's dependent on what the building has to be laid out as. Um and we're still waiting for those answers to come back. Outside of that, as far as the use of the land and fire apparatus access, we have no issues. Okay. Thank you, Charlie. Did you find anything on the Yeah,

removal. I think that is an a valid issue that you brought up and looking from the looking at the site plan detail right now kind of off to the side there is just parking. So I think that's something that should be looked at in a little bit more detail to figure out a figure out a way of maybe talking directly with with city staff about what we can do there.

Sure. Well, this plan is dramatically different than the original. My concerns are so you've got kids all living possibly in the town houses with their parents. Um, where are they supposed to go play? in the middle parking lot Martian Avenue or what's what's the thought process there and my other thought process is for the fire department is you come in there if there's a fire there is no way out when we in no way out

there is a second there okay sorry missed that mic probably doesn't show that as much as the site plan does. So, the original plot, I believe, had a place for the kids to play at. Sure. Now, they have nothing really. I mean,

yeah. I mean, there's some areas of real estation, but not not things for for kids to play. You're correct. Am I seeing this correct? That behind the uh two buildings I would say would be to the west maybe. Um grilling station, picnic areas in between the two buildings. Behind that is actually a dry retention area. Is that what I'm seeing? Correct.

Okay. So, originally how many town houses were there? Uh, it's always been 34 houses. How many? 34. 34.

34 residential town houses there. And this related to Charlie's Charlie's comments on the fire code. I think there may be places on here where it says 35 because it it was anticipated or is anticipated that the that the big road was something that looked like a town home. That is changing a little bit that that needs to change to meet the coast as Charlie mentioned, but that was never intended to be a rental. So I just wanted to clarify that. saw 35 in there at all. I mean, as you look at this setup here, you're looking got a lot of homes. It's a lot of places to live. my home, my rental with a very small daycare that's going to be limited to the amount of kids that can go over there, which was not the original idea. And a clubhouse, not big at all for that many residents. I mean, I think that's something needs to be taken in consideration when you look at this. Mark, Brian, something that I'm looking for right now and maybe you can point me in the right direction. We're right across the street from the new development, Hannah Farms.

And part of the what we did with Hannah Farms was on the homes that were facing Artisian Avenue, they had so much brick facade to And I'm looking here at pictures. Do you have something you can point me in or is there a plan in place for the exterior of the buildings? So in the site plan submission package 17 items, there should be some renderings of the buildings.

Yeah, there's some elevations and renderings in five and six. And I've seen those. Yeah, I didn't see anything with it at all. Yeah, it it is um primarily studying of various things. Um

what will be facing Artisian Avenue is the back of the building. So obviously the front the fronts of these buildings are towards the internal street. The backs um are where the tab is equally and I asked that because I also know that Habitat is on their six homes they're they have provisions for larger garages brick to match up with what uh we're seeing over in Hannah Farms. Looks like back down to the seagull. Look, it looks like we're down to a single driveway. Yeah, like a double for a garage. Chairman.

Yes, sir. If I may share something with you, uh you're exactly correct. What we put in place or you people did with Hannah Farms, even if it's the back side of the home, it faces Artusian Avenue, it gets a percentage of brick up to the window sill height. Yes, I remember that. So you'll have the same it should be the same uh call here with this project. Okay.

Now many of these are petty things. Think about this. You've got that many homes rentals. So you've got one dumpster. Is there not I mean is there not average per household of what the common trash would be. Is is that one dumpster going to hold everybody's for a week? Maybe two.

No, this would be picked up if it was still. That's pretty standard in terms of what T&H has experienced is so this would probably be in a yard dumpster that gets picked up twice a week. That's that's what we contract for um for for 34 apartments. We typically wouldn't do two dumpster enclosures. It would just again be one that that gets picked up twice a week. And the other one of the things I guess I noticed from the original plan to this plan is the first building has moved south.

Correct. Like three apartments or three town homes. Yeah. The whole correct they they all shifted south. South. I guess that's I think I think it's I think it's I'm directionally challenged. Sorry. Yeah. Page of Page left.

Yeah. Left to center. How does this clubhouse compare to other projects that you've done? I know the original we had it was quite a bit bigger just brought up. What would that in making it smaller compared to other things that you've done? you know, going down to 1500 square feet, it looks like right around there.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's I think that's pretty typical in terms of the clubhouse, meaning there's, you know, there's enough space for for maintenance to to do their work. There's there's a leasing office, um, you know, community room with with a kitchen in it, um, that is available for rental for things like birthday parties and other events. Um, I'd say this is pretty comparable. Um, I think it's designed well from a from a layout perspective to be functional. Um, you know, I I definitely appreciate the comment about specifically about the outdoor players. I mean, I think that's um something I'm definitely willing to figure out how they incorporate My only opinion, Joe, before if we go and we vote on this is that the something's going to be ironed out with the back of it to match. And actually, if you think about it, the homes going in should match the hand of arms sty and I think that is something that that's a Habitat for Humanity thing, but I think that that has been addressed with habitat.

Okay. I'm pretty sure. I mean, the idea of doing a like a brick release, I think that's would be fine. I think it makes sense given the I mean I think I think just I was pulling up the the uh the elevation. I think they're attractive from the back, you know, but adding that would definitely add add something make it more consistent with the neighborhood.

Well, something that I hadn't noticed, but Mr. Birkhart brought up the the units being moved from the original plans that was submitted in February. The buildings are closer together now. They were listed at 30 foot and now they're at 20 foot. And doesn't look like the the entrances on either side are still opposing the ones in Hannah Farms. And again, I I'd like to know why they was moved closer together. And then once I get that answered, I'd like to hear from our fire marshal on having them buildings that close together. That's kind of a red flag to me. I'm sure the units in their building have firewalls built into them to keep fire from spreading, but Joe, where are you seeing 20 foot spacing?

I'm in U section 7. The first assembly pull out section seven. I had to really get down on my bifurals to see that, but I just noticed that when Jim mentioned that the buildings had been moved. If if you look at these, what is this? section five. Just to clarify, are you talking about the town houses? Yes, the town houses. Yeah, they're more than 20 totally separation.

So, you're Jason, you're saying? Yeah. If you look at one in equals 60, I just I measured it here. So, they're 3/4 of an inch in the drawing. So, they're Yeah. The site plan C 2011 that shows 20 ft between I believe that's building three and like some landscaping like trees, bushes and then it's pretty much double that looks to be about 40 foot. Yeah, that's probably the 20 foot measurement that you're seeing is the width of the drainage. Yes, draining. Okay, I see the DE now. D. Yes.

So, yeah, that that was in on tab four on that pull out. You can see the 20 foot measurement between that middle and just measuring some trees or bushes or something. And with this plot plan, is there anything like Hannah Farms did there as far as landscaping or BM or anything along our tus? I don't believe there's anything there. There are if you look and I apologize. If you turn it to that door, you'll see some plantings. Okay. I see the trees. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So, there are some frontage plantings. Yeah.

Okay. I guess one of thing to note there is we are actually I believe we are we sit down a little bit Yeah, artisian is about just looking across here is about 610. So the existing grade down towards sort of the the center of the site is three or four feet three or four feet down. I think we'll be making some of that up won't be great, but not all of it.

[Music] Do we have any other questions for them? Could we have a discussion amongst ourselves what your thoughts are or concerns? You know, I know I know that the house, but if they were to make it a twocar garage as was agreed on. Where is that? Are they going to have to put in two homes or are they going to go into Well, I think that's a be a question.

That's going toffect everything. Yeah. Joe Joe's here from Habitat. I believe Joe. He was very specific about the size, the width for that reason.

Yeah. Um, thank you. There's a just a couple of observations. First of all, on the on the garages, we are planning twocar garages. If you know anything about Habitat or not, this is unusual. We usually don't build uh garages for we have but not uh not mostly. Um but being part of this development, this mixeduse development that uh uh is described for uh this special development zone out on Artisian Avenue. Uh we are planning uh brick Wayne scoding and twocar garages. We're going to still keep the houses small, decent, affordable as uh as per our mission, and we think we can accomplish that uh with with some designs that we're working on. But let me let me let me say that I understand the the looking at Hannah Farms and what's going on over there. But Hannah Farms is a different animal. It is a marketbased uh development. This fitting again into your plan that that called for for a mix of housing is is for a population that cannot exist in the marketplace. Uh so um we don't want to cheapen anything. We want to make it right. We want to build it right. and it needs to be affordable. Um, we plan to be good neighbors uh so that it will not be obvious from the appearance that it's anything different than than what you might expect in a market development. But we have to be honest. It's it is what it is. That's what's being planned that help.

Well, I I understand what you're saying. I really do. As I've stated, however, the people at hand farming bought into the concept when they bought into the homes building. They bought into the concept of that. Now, is that fair to them that they look across the street and it's a little iffy? I think the homes further down are iffy, but that was put in place long for Yeah. Farms.

I don't I don't think you'll see if it's not in our plan. Well, with Artisian, adding to what Rich is saying, with Artisian Avenue being a now a major thoroughare going in out of the shopping center to the schools, there's going to be more development out there. And I think that's why, not that we're trying to push stuff on these, but we want to make sure that the people coming to Martinsville that drive down Artisian play, Artisian Avenue,

Yes. see common like something that gives that the appearance that reflects Martinsville. I I get it. And I I think I think I think you'll see that. It's our commitment at Habitat that you'll see that.

And I I will just I'll add there, you know, from team's perspective. I think if you look, you know, go to our website, look what we built generally that they aren't all very attractive communities. I think this will be it and we can I'm happy to to have these discussions about about those things and um you know these will be particularly inside in the the the live living space and and things like that is really something special. I think that's one of the things that I really like about this community and something that in my world in the work force housing world. We don't get to do a lot of town town homes. Um we don't get to build a lot of communities that have, you know, direct outdoor space. It's becoming harder and harder because they're not as efficient as apartment buildings. Um to to make them to make them work and thanks to Habitat, you know, and and their generous donation of the land, I mean, it puts us in a position to to really create a really nice project for the people that that will live there in a nice community. So, I'm excited about that aspect of it. It's it is something that we don't get to do a lot. So other discussion between the members on this project it's kind of concerning and downsized but um as long I mean I'm good if everything is good with the the fire plan and the ways coating in the back all that stuff if it make If we can

make sure we get it halfway like that, I think we I mean my red flag, guys, uh is the daycare. I mean, that's that's the one thing that in February, that's something that I really uh I really appreciated the size of that daycare and now it's been removed from that third lot. And I, you know, I mean, we still got the same amount of town halls, correct? So that is a concern.

But the other concern is it's not been approved yet. You know, what I'm saying is they haven't got it where it needs to be at this point. So I mean I don't know if contingent on those couple things or you know emotionwise or something like that but

well and I believe also and and I'll just speak and then we'll let council correct me if I'm wrong but when we do this we can also because this is a habitat along with teenage investments teenage investments is separate from Habitat for Humanity. Does everybody understand that? So, Habitat is donating or selling this these other lots because there's three lots here. They're selling the the middle lot and the north lot to TNH Investments. So, Habitat's not in control of any of this.

Well, And that's true, but the town houses are still being built and housed for work for course development. Yes. Um, but what I'm going to say is that we can if if we make a motion, we can put in that motion that these town homes and clubhouse and daycare is built before the Habitat homes.

Yeah, I mean you could that that's more going to their their plan that they that we're on next. So right now we're on docket 16 and 17 is their plan. But yes, you can make a contingent upon development in a certain way. So hey, you're going to go here first. You're going to build these town homes and then habitat. You then start your homes after that's done. So because again, this is being presented to you tonight together as as one project. So you can control house built. Well, my concern fellow commissioners is they have downsized and my fear is that it's financial part of their name is investments. Do they not have the investments? Why have they downsized? Just brings a red flag to me. Well, no. We, you know, I don't know what the let's say average, how many kids were in home,

right? I don't know what they consider average, but in those town houses, if each one of those had that amount of kids, okay, is that clubhouse going I mean, sorry, is daycare going to take care of because that was the biggest thing. Am I am I correct that we looked at going, "Oh, look, I've got a daycare there."

It's something that was very attractive to me and was attractive to you. Um I mean, we didn't commissioners didn't have any meetings outside of this or or you know, me and Rich, you me you talked about this. So, it's just something that the daycare was something that was very attractive. And now it's been downsized in that third block that he did.

Yeah. is concerning the you know he lost the playground area obviously the daycare you know two kids for three four homes it's quite a few and that is one of the needs that you looking you're talking to people intently looking for that you know those living in this space would be wanting and so you know what happens how does that work out once they cool I don't think it's sized appropriate for that many homes can can I just clarify something on the day

yes sir regardless of the size, this was never intended to just just serve the the 34 town homes. I mean, it was always assumed that there would be kids coming on. Um, you shift to a three bedrooms. The three bedrooms are more likely to have kids than the two bedrooms, but there there may be kids. And the way it was presented to us in February was that it would be a city. I mean, other people could apply. It wasn't just for the the folks. Yeah. It was a community day there.

Um I I think it's really in I've been doing this for almost 20 years now. It's really difficult to say how many kids you're going to get. Specifically, how many kids you're going to get that would be any age that would need daycare versus kids, all that kind of stuff. I'm not going to I'm not going to take even take a guess. Um, you know, just I I want to be frank about the whole project and and where we're at today. A big part of this is financial financially driven. We got our award towards the end of last year from IHCA. That's the biggest source of funding that also funs the and all the infrastructure improvements that will will allow the the Habitat town homes to be constructed in the future. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your political views, uh from our industry perspective, we didn't do well in the election and it creates a lot of uncertainty. So, we sell the tax credits that we get to investors. We went into this with a price close to 90 cents per dollar of tax credit investment. We now have bids for this project at 82 cents. So there is a huge shortfall from a funding perspective. So we've put together in any way possible a project that we think we can fund can get the associate the the needed funds. We've applied for some extra funds and get completed. We feel comfortable that we can get there. So that's that is the reason that we're we're at where we're

at. Um, you know, that being said, I I'm hoping that the daycare gets I think one of the positives about some of this the new code is that we probably get a little bit bigger and and be able to to hold to serve a few more kids. I I don't have a way without other funding to get it back to what it was. I just can't I can't build the town houses and the daycare with the pot of money that I have. Is your is your financing or grant developed on that? You have to have x amount of homes. Correct. We have to build

Okay. The number that we committed to. Okay. And with this plan, we've got one, two, three lots. Lot one is what I'm going to call the Habitat. Two is the town homes and the third one is vacant. When this is all said and done, will Habitat still own the third lot or will Teenage Investments? I was going to ask you something else. Go ahead. uh TN investments would would Okay. So, there are six Habitat lots.

Yes. Lot seven is the town home lot and then block one is the third lot which could be split again, you know, for whatever permitted use comes down. So,

yeah. And so, On that note, um Joe and Colin Marwell, the daycare provider, had had submitted for some funds. There's on the plans is there's a hashmark area for potentially a second townhouse. They haven't been successful in getting those funds, but there is, you know, that is part of the plans and could be part of it. Obviously, this this this other lot is there unused that could potentially be a future could be, you know, a future space. I I just I can't commit to it at this point. And what I can commit to is supporting Fellow Memorial and and Joe and whatever their efforts are. One of the things I didn't didn't get to say here is but you know TNH is a is a full-ervice real estate development company. So a re real estate company period. So what that means is that we do everything from the beginning to the end in property management. So we intend to manage this. We intend to own it at least for 15 years which is the minimum compliance period likely much longer than that. Um, so we will be members of the community and we'll be here um to to figure out what the best, you know, use for that space. We we we want to see that it's used in a way that benefits the community where it's it's not a money maker for us by any means. It's it's much more what what could eventually happen that could benefit the community. So, forgive me if I misunderstood, but is the daycare grant dependent to run?

No. No. We the daycare that is shown is is Colorado is is ready to to own and operate it. We have the funds to build out.

Okay. We were just thinking trying to get it to get it bigger and Joe and D and had applied for some funding. If you notice again if you notice on your plan there is space between the daycare and block out block three for an expansion. That's what that's what uh private is talking about. Uh Heather and I uh teamed up to uh approach the IE Health Foundation this past year uh for assistance in expanding the payare from this footprint. Uh we were not successful but we have not given it up.

Okay. But I think in discussions that uh I think the members of the planning commission have made their yourself clear that the the kids the daycare playground is very important.

Understood. um to figure out where we could put it, but I'm h happy to add that in fine contingency of the approval or whatever you want to call it because I know that part of those vision is to grow and growing is young families and young families need parks, sidewalks, bike paths, recreation They do have that playground in Hannah Farms. You can see kids going over there if there weren't something here for the best crossing the road in that subdivision.

Well, and and I know that the city has in their vision an expansion of a major park on South Pew Drive. that's just around the corner from this and there'll be bike pads or sidewalks down there to that. But still, there needs to be something on these grounds other than what I see. So, we don't have any other questions. like to entertain a motion for or against table. If you need more information about the facade facing the road, is that something you need to put?

I think that's something that'll come to the next one. If if if we if we approve this, then the next one Okay. because the next one will be for uh 257 to the final and that's where we can insert that. All right. Well, I move that we accept adoption number 255016. Rick Hock has made a motion to accept PC 255016. Do I hear a second? I'll second.

Jim Burkhart seconds the motion. All those in favor say I. I. I. Oppose. Motion carries.

Steve abstain. And Steve, you've been very good sitting there not saying a word even though you wanted to. Okay, new business. Let's move on. Docket number PC25017 is the final PUD final detailed plans for artisian Avenue owner habitat of for humanity of Morgan County for the 10.512 acres. Gentlemen, we continue. So we've obviously had a lot a lot of discussion about this already but just to give kind of a high level overview. So Cartisian Place will ultimately create uh 34 town and town homes. Um it's an even mix between two and threebedroom uh homes. In addition to that, it'll create amenity space um which is the clubhouse um right now shown as the as the you know there's a grill area, picnic area. Um and then sort of the last piece of that is the is the daycare space. Um, as I mentioned, you know, we have in the clubhouse there'll be a community room um on-site management and maintenance space. Um, and uh everything that's needed to really have the property uh function

successfully. Um few few other things and kind just to re rehash what I said. This is I think a pretty unique thing from our perspective and that we get to pre build town houses um versus an apartment building. I think that really provides something unique for the residents. Um and because of that, you know, they have each have a front and rear patio, so actual outdoor space. Um and you know, I think I think overall it's a it's a good site plan. Um, any questions?

Is this where we put contingencies in just building it or some of these things we talked about? Yes. We want to see happen. Yes. You put contingencies in. You can put in how you want it to be developed. You can put in you want to see, you know, your facade brick facade. You want to see a daycare of a certain size, but you can all that's this is where you put all that stuff. And I don't know if you have enough information or not, but certainly this is where you can discuss.

Well, one other thing I just wanted to note uh in terms of the timeline. So, as I mentioned, this project has received funding. We have commitments for for equity um and the other sources. Our hope is to move forward in this process and be ready to start construction I'd say late fall um probably in November. Terrible time to start construction, but unfortunately the way the way this works is soon as you can get everybody together and get all the pieces together, you got to start because the longer you wait, the more expensive it gets, unfortunately. And they started, you're saying you're going to start, you'll break ground and get your curbs and your rows and your foundations in,

correct? Yep. [Music] And I think that's something that not having all the information on the clubhouse um and the date here. You stated in your the the our first series of questions on the uh document number 2516 that you didn't have all the final answers on that correct daycare and clubhouse y

the clubhouse part of it is that that part of it is set it's the the daycare but the but it's all going to be under the same roof. Yeah. But they're there's they're connected buildings but that they're be being designed separately and from what I'm understanding and what Charlie talked about earlier that there are new regulations from the state that has to be guidelines that has to be followed as far as the structure is built.

Correct. So, it's got to be more designed like a commercial building. Correct. So, I I think probably the the biggest two things that our architects brought up in after we spoke to Charlie and kind of got that guidance was so it would need to have a fire alarm system um and a and added entrances and exits. Um those were those were the two two big things that that came out of those comments. Um, it's obviously a lot more complicated than that. I'm not a design professional, but that's just overall my understanding

and I would think in the fire codes there will be some sort of a firewall and stuff in between the two at least. That's correct. Yes. But that'll all be in the design phase. Correct. Once they're ready to submit the state, that'll be where that'll be called out at. And if this is go ahead and approved, then as plans are submitted to the building inspector's office, you would make sure that all the boxes are checked on that and that it's up to those documents would be shared with Charlie also.

Okay. And Charlie's been very helpful. I mean, it's really a pleasure working with with everybody in town. Well, we appreciate Charlie because he takes a great effort in understanding and communicating. Yes. To uh make sure that things are right. So they don't have to be corrected after. Yeah. Charlie, don't let that go to your head. Thanks, Bill. So, are there any other questions? I don't think I got a question. I just got a comment. I just don't know if we got enough information to pass this

tonight. You know, I I I think there's some questions out there that that we need answers before we can say yay. You know, and so, you know, I I'm I'm in to table it till the next meeting anyway till we get some answers. And that that is an option that we have, right? And I think we all we all have to be I mean obviously it's not going to be a everybody we all have to be in somewhat agreement of what's going to look like. Correct when they bring it back.

Yeah. Well, I mean there was things we discussed and we can put them in as contingencies, but I'm I'm not sure we're going to get all the contingencies in there that we need to to make it the way we want it to be. So, you know, I guess I'm going to say I'm going to make a motion that we table this till we get some more information. I put that as a motion. Okay. Jim Burkhart made a motion to table this until next month so we can get more information. I second it. Rich Baston seconds. All those in favor? I I opposed. Okay.

Yes. Could I could I just I want to just kind of go through my list to make sure that we're all on the same page with the things that bringing back. Um so I guess the first thing is adding a playground. Um I kind of just consider that something we need to figure out and get in the plans. Um the second thing I had was the visual concerns I'll say from Martisian Avenue. So um I guess a suggestion was made that Patty Rick Wayne's Cody um so we can look at that from a design perspective

and I think Mr. Strader understands what we were talking about on that. So uh you can have communication with him.

Sure. Yeah. And then on the daycare, I guess it's two parts. I mean, one, it has gotten smaller. Um, I will endeavor to make it as big as I can and to to to clarify that within the context of of the um the new code. So I I think from my perspective the deliverable there would be you know a more detailed plan on what what we're putting together and obviously the you know providing the number of um children that we think that that it could um serve by code. I think you're on the right path though.

Okay. Yes. Those were kind of the three big things I had. Is there anything else that I'm missing? Did talk about the snow removal where that What do you say? Snow removal. And the reason that Maryland is there's that the one street in front of Habitat homes. It will be dedicated to the city and then it becomes TN TNH. Yes. Investments parking lots. So the city's not going to go through their private. So that's the reason we uh

just to be clear that you said your company does the property management also for 15 years what you say. So we so the without getting into too much technical detail so because of the funding the the project is required to be affordable to certain incomes for a period of a minimum of 30 years. It's actually I mean, I believe it's 40 years.

Yeah, it's it's 40 years. But specifically, there's a 15-year initial period where it's really difficult from our perspective to not be a manager and the true and that's the period where the investor is involved. So, the comment I made is we would we'll be involved in this for a minimum of 15 years, likely much longer than that. Um but that kind of initial compliance period is sort of the you know the we have guarantees and things that are that are out there for that period. So

is there anything else? Thank you. So, if there's anything else that anybody thinks of, if you could communicate that with Mr. Strader so that as he has conversations back and forth with them, if there's anything else that somebody would like to see before they come back, that way we can uh move forward with this so that they can get started on groundbreaking and get moving dirt. Thank you very much.

When would you'd like us to file the updated plans so that they're distributed to you enough time in advance. Oh, I would How much time do you think it will take to add these items to the plan? Um, I'm going to guess two to three weeks without being the engineer or the architect who has to do all the work. I I understand. I need some viewing time. So, nothing more than three weeks. Three weeks.

Thank you very much.

Okay, next up under new business, we're going to move right along here. Docket number PC. I think Mac went to get him. Docket number PC25018. Historic district approval for sign. Address is 88 North Main. Owner is Artisian Group LLC. Thank you. And Mr. Finnman is out in town. and Gary Oaks will be presenting

for now. Okay. Hello, Mr. Oaks. Uh, I got a lot of work done back there last hour. So, Kim was here representing the community foundation. The application was by Craig Finnman uh because he owns the building, but I'd like Kim to explain it to you. Okay. Kim, if you could please sign in.

Sure. I'm Kim Cole, president of the community foundation and uh we did um with Craig Finnman apply for uh approval of our signage. Uh we are planning to move to this the space at 88 North Main Street and we need to have our sign approved. So uh we will be renting off of Craig Benaman and Artisian Group and we did um submit the plans with the sign showing it's 43 by 39 and then a a photograph there of what the sign should look like. We anticipate as soon as it's approved, um, space should should be available to us in by the end of summer.

Okay. So, I have a visual. What building is that? I I'm not very good with the numbers. What building? I I know it's down by great. It's currently um one of the sides of Tom Fiddler. So Tom has two they have two he has two spots the kind of violence you know lessons side and then the excuse me the event side and he's wanting to vacate the event side. So that's the side that we're going to occupy. Gotcha.

Okay. Mr. Bod, I don't know if anybody else noticed, but um you know, our historic sign ordinance talks about signs not extending more than 3 feet, 36 in over the sidewalk. And this will be at least the second time we we've been presented with a sign that's a little bit larger than that. I know it's not much, but I don't know how we're supposed to handle that as a group. Um, it's supposed to not exceed 36 in and this is a little bit more than that.

Can somebody tell me what the idea was when they made that rule about how far came out? The sign placement. Is that what you're asking? How far? How far can it extend out?

I can't answer that. something that I've had the time period that I've been in 8 ft off the base of the sidewalk and height to the bottom edge of it and Mr. Wood shared the dimension that are correct. We also it would sure be nice if we could give a some form to to applicants that says what's the square footage of your building front and then the square footage of the sign. It looks like the sign um it's two-sided. Is that right? This is called It is.

So, um it looks like it's a little bit less than 12 square feet on each side. That's 24 square ft total. I'm assuming that the building front is adequate to have that. It's supposed to have no more than one square foot of sign for every 10 square ft of building frontage. But without dimensions, I have no way of knowing that. Anybody have any ideas?

Would it be in in reference um to about the size of the committee has boutique where the reporter used to be you market yeah same that that that's was approved yes that's okay that's your I don't remember the dimensions but it was similar size yes you're saying that the urban urban markets Yes. Hangs over too far also. Yes. Which we approved.

I mean, unless it got ridiculous. I really don't know what the difference would be part six out. What's it going to do? Clip a semi truck trailer. Maybe we ought to change the ordinance. What's that? We may need No, I'm I'm dead serious though. I I mean, I am. It's it's maybe the ordinance needs to be changed.

There was brackets placed on these locations around nearly four corners of the square. Uh the brackets were designed the same most all of them. And uh so you're I think the bracket meets its standards. It's the sign. The face of the sign is what we're we're looking at. Does that sound right, Steve? Yes, I think so. And I'm sure it was just for unifority. I would assume, you know, I mean, where where do we stop?

Yeah, I think it was to set up some limit on how far signs should stick out over the sidewalk, right? You know, eight feet probably would be too far. Um, three feet maybe is not far enough. Yeah, maybe. But, you know, I mean, we have an ordinance, but if we're not enforcing it, it's not an ordinance. That's why I brought it up. I'm not not sure how we I I'm not denying the need for this sign and the appropriateness of it. Um, but I don't know how to handle that as far as normal business here. And Bob, what you're saying is that these brackets are already on the buildings.

That's correct. If you was to walk around, they're nearly 90% of them are then exactly the same. Some are placed higher, some are placed lower, but the bottom edge of the sign is cannot be any lower than 8 ft. But they stick out the same. That's the question, right? Did you say there's some variety? I mean, you were talking about old signage brackets. Is that what you

Yes, but there's there's several of these new brackets that's been placed in the past uh uh maybe the past eight years.

And you are just using the existing bracket, right? Um, we've been told that we are to get our own bracket, but I've gone to the other businesses around us to ask them where they got theirs, the sizing, all of that because we're just we're relying on our neighbors to just do what they've done. I went over and talked with Tori at Urban Market about her signage and um, ended up with DG Graphics just because she had a wood sign. We didn't want a wood sign. Um Craig Fman's office had directed us to DG Graphics because they've done a lot of the other local businesses. So we certainly want to just do what everybody else did.

So this the way I understand it then is the sign is not done. The sign is the the prototype is done, but we're waiting on approval before we tell them yes, go ahead and make the sign. Okay.

Yeah, we didn't have anything done yet without approval. So gentlemen, the to answer your question, we could tell Miss Cole that the 43 in is passed outside of our ordinance and bring DG graphics needs to bring it down to 36 in and then she can get a bracket made for that sign. And I'm sure that in her defense, she didn't know that the ordinance was 36 in. Am I correct? You are correct. Yes. And there is no problem to make the adjustment.

So, let's do that because I I I like the look of the sign and I think as we go further down this, we're going to see that maybe uh is there going to be a color change for the front of your building? Yes.

So, that's coming up. So, there's going to be a color change. The sign looks good. Let's just uh let's get the dimensions down to the 36 in wide. She can get a bracket made for she can get it. Okay. Get the sign made and we can move forward. Do I hear a motion? Um, I would make a motion, Steve Bod, that we um approve docket 255018 for a sign that is no more than 36 in long by whatever dimension height that she'd like um as long as it stays above 8 foot over the sidewalk. So, we move that we approve it as presented with the exception of 36 inches in length. I'll second that. Caleb Forest for seconds. All those in favor say I.

I. Opposed. I Rich, you oppose. Yes. Okay. Who is opposed? Rich passes. Okay. Motion carries. Thank you, Kim. Thank you. And you and you understand why. Got it. On the 36 instead of 43.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh Mr. Bowie has got to leave. Before we go to the next item, um docket number PC25019, historic district approval for paint color change. Address is 58 North Main. Uh the owner is artisian group Gary Oaks is presenting.

Gentlemen, this is another building that was owned by Mr. Phenomenon on the square and he's proposing a paint color change and there's a sample on the building I've been able to see. I don't know how many any of you have been down there. It's on next to Tom Fidler's building. It's called Turkish Tile. Kind of a strange name, but Turkish tile, but it's a blue colors. what you and I all color. Um, so that's the building at the next to Fillery that is proposed to put a Turkish tile color blue color on and be trimmed out in white. So that's what we're asking for this evening. Mr. Would like approval to get that building painted. It's red right now.

So what's red's going to be white and then what's is going to be blue? Am I reading that right? I'm still confused about this. Yeah. So, yeah. But, so the the building itself is going to be this color, blue, and so then so what he's got there is the red's going to be white. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. And in the docket number here, it says 58 North Main, but this is the same property, same building the community foundation's going in, right? Yes, it is. So the the correction on that docket number should be 88 North Main, right?

And it's one of them says East Main. There is such thing as East Main. It's Well, yeah. When you pull it up on elevate, there's no I'm not sure there's an 88. So it'll be a Turkish Turkish tile. And it's it's a blue color with white trim. Yes. And that'll be the community foundation building. Yes, it would be. Can you go ahead and make the other bill? Sorry. Do we have any questions for Gary on that? I make a motion that we cut we pass for the change of the color. Rich Bast,

I'll second. So, Rich Baston made a motion that we approve the color change. No, Jason. Jason Scott made a second on it. All those in favor say I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. Okay. You still up, Gary? Yeah.

Doc number PC25020, historic district approval for paint color change. Address is 21 and 27 North Jefferson. Our owner is Artisian Group LLC. And this is the building that it's been called uh 21. It's been called Main Street Grill. It's it's the restaurant on the east side of the square.

And again, this is the same color, the Turkish T. And if you're familiar with that building, it's really two buildings and they're painted supposedly the same color, but they the paint never never took and matched at all. So, this is this is painting this in this Turkish tile color. And the instructions to the painter is you got to if you have to fill a substrate, whatever you need to do to make the paint color match. Any questions? Entertain a motion. I make a motion that we accept PC number 2520 as presented.

Second. Caleb Forester made a motion that we accept. Rich Baston made a motion to second that. All those in favor say I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. Good.

Next. Docket PC25021 historic district approval for a mural. Address is 56 East Morgan Street. legal description. It's owned by Artisian Group in the city of Martinsville. M Porter is the presenter on this. This is in the alleyway going north on the wall for the new theater. Mr. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioners, as the chair explained, uh this is to place a uh a mural uh on the side of the civic theater that is uh going to be opening very soon. Uh you have in your packet concepts from the artist that was selected um to do the work. The work is going to be painted on panels. They will not be painted on the brick, which is a little bit different than a lot of murals are done. That way it keeps the integrity of the brick so that in in time when the mural reaches its lily its lifpan they can be taken down they can be repainted and the building will still remain intact. Um the work is being done through a grant that we received from the Indiana Arts Commission. So there's no uh tax dollars directly involved in this and um so that's where we are. So, there's going to be two murals. The way I read it,

yeah, it's two panels. Two on either side of they will they will straddle the the the down spout basically is the the way to look at it. Down the alley. Down the alley. Yes. Down the alley on the theater on the west side of the theater of on the west side of the alley. East side of the theater.

Are these local artists that are going to be doing these? Uh the gentleman that was selected is from Franklin. Uh but he has ties in and spent a lot of time in Morton County, was very familiar with it. As you can see by his illustrations, he's brought a Martinsville flare to to the work um of the audience watching the presentation on the stage. Uh we had TW just forformational purposes we had 21 applicants uh for this project and the committee narrowed it down to 13 I'm sorry narrowed it down to seven on the first night and then of those seven they narrowed it down to the the artist from Franklin and the same artist is doing both. Yes. Okay.

And so they're both there before the door. No once once uh yes right there. Yes. They'll straddle that that down spout. Gota. And I will say that uh when we put out the call for artist, we asked for something that would be about 50 square feet and he was so excited about the project that he came back with two panels totaling 70 square ft at the same price. And from what I understand, uh going to a board of works meeting, this alley has been uh decommissioned as an alley. It's going to be pedestrian only. It it it Yes, it's indefinitely a pedestrian access only alley

and the lighting and stuff that was there prior to the build. The lighting will be going back up. That's my understanding as well. Do we have any other questions for Mr. Ford? Only thing I got is I mean I don't care about the mural, but I hope the vendor is not quite like this.

No. And I have Yeah, we we actually and it may be the copy that you have because I think mine's a little bit what I actually printed is a little bit stronger than what the copier did. Um I don't know if these show anything is a little better than what you have. Um, this this one is is is a theater theatrical presentation with an audience and you can see cars in the in this mineral sign in the background in the theater marquee. And then in this one you have the oldtime barker with a murals of oldtime movies. I'm sorry. This is a movie. This is a a live presentation. That's the concept. I do have if you're interested I can show you pictures of his finished work and it is very much uh ve very very quality but again these are just his concepts um with pen and pen and paper so that you would have something to to look at.

Council, do you have any input on this? It appears that you probably have an office that's looking out towards these murals. I had no input. Okay. Just trying to light the unit up, sir. And it's his lights are the ones that are going to be lighting up that part of the alley, too. So, motion that we accept PC number 255021 as presented. Caleb Forester made a motion that we accept uh docket number PC25021 on the mural. Do I hear a second? I second it. Rich Baston seconds. All those in favor say I. Opposed. Motion carries.

And for the record, Madam Secretary, my first name has a K on the end. It's like Jack but with an M. So it's Mac K. MAC K. Correct. Okay. There. Since there's two Macs in this building, it gets a little confusing sometimes. Thank you, sir. Next up, item number seven, docket number PC25022, plan review. It's address 20 and 30 at Bills Boulevard. Um474 acres and owner is Rihanna Martinsville LLC. Yes, it's Raina Martinsville.

Okay, if you could sign in, please. Mr. administrator have they uh give all the necessary certifications and no sub publications. You you have some renderings there of their proposal there in front of you tonight.

Yeah, Mr. Chairman, this is a little bit different. This is for reallyformational purposes only for the board just to kind of let you know what's going on. So, he's here to give you information on what his plans are. There's really nothing for you to approve tonight. Zoning's already in place. Obviously, the buildings have to meet our ordinance as far as setback and all that. Mr. Strader's been working with the owner on that. So, this is just uh really forformational purposes only this evening.

Okay. So, just to give you a little bit of background on the property. Um, initially when we bought this, we were we were going to retrofit both the buildings. One one was going to be a Duncan, other one was going to be just Jimmy John's. But based on the looking at how bad the buildings shape were, we now then we decided to tear it down and put two uh freestanding buildings with drive-thru and going back and forth with uh unfortunately after a year that zone was actually categorized as a flood zone area. So now we have to elevate that site to almost 4T. So probably we are adding5 $600,000 extra to elevate it. So all in all we looking at investment of like5 to $6 million between two buildings both of them with drive-thru. Um the east building is going to be Duncan only. The west is going to be Jimmy John's and there's a space 1200 ft. We haven't nailed it down on who that tenant is going to be. We're looking at possibly like a few pizza places probably Caesars but we're not sure. We haven't nailed it down. So that's our plan.

I didn't is Jimmy John's and what now? So it's Jimmy John's uh it's going to be on the best best part of the building. Jimmy John [Music]

Glad to see somebody finally doing something with that property. And what he's saying, what he's saying is that after looking at the condition of these buildings, they're going to have to tear them down. And with them having to tear them down, that sets a new standard. So, if I'm understanding this right, Mr. Strader, by them tearing that down, they have to raise the elevation up per the new flood standards for that area. So, they're going to have to elevate that like whatever you have to do. They're going to have to elevate all that before they can fill their new buildings. Okay.

Uh because of the flood, which is going to have added cost. Now, I also understand from what you said was you've got two buildings, but two anchor businesses, but you've got room for a third Yes. business that will they'll have room for a third business in that front building. Uh in the back building. In the back building. The back. Well, the back building will have room for a third. Um, but they haven't nailed down that occupy yet. Okay. So, will that be in between the two buildings? You're saying, sorry, would that be in between the two buildings that's shown here?

It's actually going to be this one. This this is Oh, okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. So, as Mr. Coffee said, this is just information information only, just to let us know what uh is going on. They'll be back um once they get things nailed down. Is that right, Mr. Coffee? They'll be back and present a

They won't be back. Uh they they don't there's really no need for them to come back. Yeah. So, again, just kind of bring you up to speed, let you guys know what's going on. And obviously, there's a lot of excitement this project. Yes. So, you you're going to actually have two entrances. Yes. So, so one down to the end, the dead ends there. You're going to cut back and Okay. All right. And you're not going to be tied into Turkey Hill whatsoever. No. Yeah, the gas station because the gas station has to in order for them to access, they have to elevate the side Okay. Well, they're getting ready to move in at

Okay. So, there's nothing we need to vote on now. I'm thrilled you're coming. Thank you very much.

We need to make a motion. Well, I got one thing that I want to bring up in discussion. We're done. Okay. Thank you.

I got one thing I want to bring up. Um, in May, we talked about and we approved a change in ordinance for uh the way that stuff was sent out. And I've got my notes all messed up here. I had that. Uh, Mr. Bernell put that before city council. Uh city council did um approve that um four to three. So that is something that uh as we move forward that's something that we we worked on and we approved and sent it to city council and they approved it. So that ordinance has been changed the way that certifications are done. And

with that, that's all I've got. Retain a motion for German. So move. So move. Second. Motion Bart. Second. Our next regular session meeting, our regular regular meeting will be Tuesday, August the 26th at 7 PM. Meeting a journal. Thank you.

I think we did get lot of discussion on the first lot of