Common Council - Regular Meeting

Hi there, how are you? Thank you.

Well, it's a little bit wet outside. Let's give everybody else just a couple more minutes. Maybe they got delayed by the rain.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Oh yeah, yeah, I did notice that. It's on here. You don't have to worry.

Well, let's go ahead and get started. Be mindful of everybody's time this afternoon. We've asked this workshop so we can openly discuss the peddler's solicitation ordinance that Councilman Badger and Councilwoman Miller have been working on. John, I'll let you just kind of open it up and your thoughts. And then the other councilmen that come in, they can kind of weigh in.

Well, my thoughts was we were going to have an ordinance and have some exemptions. But at the last minute, we had some that we didn't need to really have an ordinance, just have people put no whatever on the door. No chaliceners. Yeah. And then I don't know whether there was going to be an ordinance to that effect or whether it was just going to be that way. Are they going to have to get a background anyway, whether they're permitted or not? Mr. Mann, you might know a little bit more about that than I do.

I can say on no soliciting that we would treat it like a trespass on our end. It could be an ordinance or it could just be if someone is still on the door to the ward and we're calling and they arrive and we're there, we could issue the trespass of the homeowner's request. I think that's an issue we're going to have regardless of enforcement. More than likely, if the police are called and the person selling goods knows that they're called, then I can get away with it. So I think that's an issue we're going to have.

So would you recommend, Chief Manley, that we put, that we make available signs that say, please no solicitors or something like that? Or do you already have those available?

We don't have those. I don't know if the city does.

We do not. They're like $2 at Walmart or Roll Game if somebody's that interested in having them.

So they can do that when they're out?

Yeah.

That's your responsibility.

I don't want to speak for the attorney, but I think that would remove the liability from the city with us giving them out and something were to happen. If they put it on their door, that puts the liability on them.

Okay. I think the thing we were trying to avoid when Ms. McFadden and I were going back and forth kind of working on a penalty permit or a penalty license was trying not to make it so that students and that not-for-profits couldn't advertise or do fundraisers and that type of thing. That was an obstacle that I was afraid we were going to get into if we tweaked it too much.

So the responsibilities on the homeowner to present or to put a no solicitor sign on their home if they don't want to knock on their door. And then we could... put somewhere on our website or convey somehow publicly what the steps are to take to call the police, know that obviously that they're gonna probably be gone, so if we could get their name or the name of the business that we pursue that way. Okay.

What's our current ordinance?

I say, Ben, aren't they supposed to get permits from you?

Yeah, the way it's currently set up, they're supposed to come to my office, pay a $10 fee, get their own background check, bring that proof to our office, and then at that point, we will issue them a Pether's permit.

So if we change, or we don't amend the ordinance, do we even need an ordinance?

That's my question.

I guess my question would be to Chief Manley, how many people come down and get permission? Or do they just go out and knock on doors?

We don't see it.

I don't come to the police department. I think that's what the clerk's office would do. And how many do you see then? I'm sorry.

We see a handful a year. Now, how many are out knocking on doors, I don't know. But I would say... The majority are probably just going door to door. And that's why I initially brought it up, just because we were getting calls from residents. These people are knocking on the door saying they had a peddler's permit. They have a tag or something to that effect on them. So then that's kind of what started the whole conversation in our office. We have no way of knowing who's doing the proper steps, who's not, and our background checks are so limited. We can tell you that person hasn't done anything illegal locally, but where they came from or what they did there, we don't know. So it's almost giving people a false sense of security that we've vetted these people out, and our vetting process is pretty limited.

So kind of at this point, it sounds like we're saying that we disregard or not have an ordinance but just have the guideline that if you don't want someone to come to your home, then you are responsible for putting a sign up and then seeking authorities if that is happening and you don't want it to happen. Then it takes you out of it.

Yeah, because the way it is currently, there is no recourse. If you bypass my office and go door to door, we can tell you don't do that again, but that's to the extent that we can do anything.

I know from personal experience, when I confronted somebody at my door and said, do you realize you have to have a penalty, they said, oh, they just dropped me off and told me to go try to sell my property. So we're getting people who have no clue what to do.

Did you have a no soliciting sign? Pardon me, please?

So now it has to be trespassed from the homeowner to the person that requested the trespass. In the presence of an officer, an officer will basically document that the homeowner requested that person to be trespassed. So it's kind of like a warning at that point. And then if they come back at a second, another time, and that's documented as trespass, then we'll get a disclaimer against.

I think it still comes back down to enforcing. Somebody knocks on your door. Hey, I've got no soliciting here. What are you doing? Wait a second. I've called the police to come. I mean, they're not going to stick around. And Ryan, I'm going to assume if you were going to say no trespassing to somebody, could you make it for their company? Or would it have to be that person specific?

I don't know for sure. I would assume the person specific. because they're the one actually owning the property. They can't just go and say that someone wears a lawnmower. So I would assume it would be that way, just the person is themselves.

So then somebody else would say to Kevin, Kevin, knock on his door.

I do think that would have a lot more teeth to it than the way it is currently. What they can tell them is, if you don't leave, I'm going to call the clerk treasurer's office.

Yeah.

I'm not sure it's going to scare anyone.

And I think to speak to Mr. Porter's point, the majority of the peddlers that we have to answer, we were calling on, either they're suspicious or whatever the case may be, will we make contact with them? They're not the person in charge of the county, like Mr. Porter said. They've been dropped off, asked to sell from this block to this block. We'll get picked back up and go somewhere else. Unfortunately, when we run into them, they're not the person that would have the permit in the first place. If there was a permit.

So the next step of action would be to propose that we disregard or eliminate our ordinance or do we need to even do that? Abolish it? Get rid of it?

Mr. Humphrey, what would your opinion? Burn it? Well, I mean, if you wanted to repeal it, you could. I don't know if that's really what you need. I mean, you certainly don't need to repeal it, but if you don't want to move forward with any amendments, modifications to it, then it would just die. No further action. But would the ordinance still be on the books? But the ordinance, as it currently reads, which is Chapter 18, Article 5, would still be there, unless you took action to repeal it.

I think if we're not going to use it, we should get it off the books.

Well, I actually brought this up. What brought this to the table?

I actually brought it before you just because we were running into the issue of getting calls from residents. And then we also had peddlers that were complaining that they were doing the proper steps. And they're out there competing with people that they knew weren't getting a peddler's permit. And then the conversation was passed of us of, well, what's the repercussions if they don't comply? Which is the way it currently is, basically me telling them, please comply. So that's why I brought it to the council. We have very few companies that we're aware of that do it. And I appreciate them doing the right thing because it's the right thing. But as we're finding out, there's more and more people out there not doing the right thing. There's really no way of managing it right now.

I'm fine with whatever you all want. I mean I took it on to try and tweak it and we tweaked it for a while and we got a new idea so whatever you all want is fine with me. I just think if we're going to not use it then it should be taken out. I'm the kind of guy that likes to clean up as you're taken out. There's no sense leaving something hanging if you're not going to use it.

When was that added into the current ordinance? When was what added in? Whatever you're suggesting we take out. No, I'm saying take the ordinance out. We're not going to use the ordinance. How old is the ordinance? Is this something that came up 10 years ago or 50?

It's been since 79. Wow.

I was graduating. I was too. Ben probably wasn't even born, right?

I wasn't.

Mayor, you're getting your certificate. That's right.

Well, I agree with that. And I know Mayor Gustin is currently looking at some options and trying to look to check someone about our ordinances to have them. looking at it. I think that's something that we need to as a city so that we're clear, we have copies of everything in one book. And we each department should have, our departments should have copies to be able to refer them with the police department, fire department, treaty department, different things. And be aware of what our ordinances are. You know, council uh councilman mayhem and uh council coffee we were just in a meeting so i apologize that we were late over our uh lighter properties things went through there as i was just looking at some of those things that are written in there you know there's one talking about the properties and holes and things like that and i don't want to Chief Manley received a complaint today. There's a residence that's had a large hole in the yard for about a week and he's got the city's pipe exposed maybe some sewage that they just got to point on checking on but that board that specifically addresses the issue that that's the city's property they're not taking care of it when you go onto that property and the mechanicals have to take care of it because you know a week long a hole in the yard that sewage is leaking that's unsanitary But, you know, that's, again, that's a bonus right there. So everyone should know if you ever look at it. I know it's like being an officer, probably not on the scene, and you're looking at, especially the police officers, looking at someone and saying, is this an ordinance? Is this something we need to enforce or do? And at one point in time, we used to have that. And I think over the years, we've looked at things differently. go and add things maybe something in there but i'd like to see us not against what mayor cost is looking at a company possibly doing that for us i know it's been tried a couple times or they got close to having to put it together but i think it's something that would be a good for us to have and to clean those up. Just like this one here, if we're not going to, looks at 79, it's not been enforced. It's not going to be enforced. Why do it? That's why my concern here is if the no soliciting side can take care of the issues because you've already got state law on there. Apparently, trespass, if someone's coming in and they're selling and there's going to be a problem with the police department, those things can be enforced. And that's why I'm saying it's kind of hard Because when you create this, or if you create it, you gotta look at all areas. The Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the schools, athletic teams, things. And then when you start saying, okay, this group's not in this, they're not clear who this is, it just creates a lot of hardship for people to enforce these things and to know when or what. And that's what I'm saying, if it's not clear and cut, if it's a lot of gray matter. There's no reason to put it on there just to cause problems down the road. And it's not enforced because it's just too hard to enforce.

Well, I think probably looking back in 1979, you might have had 20 organizations going knocking door to door. Today, you probably have 50. A lot of things have changed since then. So Mr. Coffey, if the council wants to take this ordinance out, what's the process?

Yes, I'll draft a document that will repeal this particular chapter and article. And then the council will take action on it.

Do we have to have a public hearing?

We don't have to have a public hearing for this. But it'll be done in a public meeting. So we'll get it on the agenda for maybe two weeks from now.

Or does the council want to have one more time to think about it? Or is the consensus ready to take it off?

We're not enforcing it. We're going to enforce it. Laws are updated all the time. Every July, new laws come out, and the officers handle it. The police officers buy what they carry around, and that's just like Morgan County Prosecutor's Office compiles the most common laws enforced, used here in Morton County. And that's the little book that they use. It certainly doesn't contain all the laws, but that's what's mostly used in Morton County. That's why they put that together. And it's the same thing with that, is the laws are changed and updated. then they are removed, but not on the book. They go through and say, well, was this one repealed? Or add to it, put what's current in there. I just want to say, I think it's good for us to get an updated ordinance book ourselves in the city so that we know.

Are we on the agenda tonight, Mike? for a decision? No. This is an overwork. I know. I know. I meant that. No. OK. Because if we didn't make it on the agenda because we didn't have any action requested. Right. So if Mr. Coffey presents a repeal, then we would put that on the next agenda after we receive it.

I know we were just a couple minutes late too, but was there, have we, has there been anyone, the public around here, received information from the public about this? I know you had that bill put out there for people to give input and for this workshop to give them the opportunity. I'm not heard anything, no.

I did have a guy come in and try to tell my fortune. Now he asked for a donation for homeless people in another country.

You're such a nice guy.

I am.

Well, I appreciate the time and effort that Andy and John put on this. keep it and bring it back to us. So it sounds like Mr. has a direction that you've asked him to go. So as soon as we, Mr. Porter gets that, we'll be on the next agenda and bring it up the road. Thank you, council. So you read about that, Ann? I thought it was going to be a little behind here.

Thank you.