City Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

right all right it's 6 o'cl so we'll go ahead and call this meeting to order it's Tuesday April 1st um this is the market Planning Commission meeting we will begin with roll call off please here Mar R here Christine H here Al here J here here and here is there a motion to approve agenda all in favor same all right motion to approve the agenda carries and so um did people get a chance to review the minutes from our last meeting March 18 if so are there any changes so I um I don't so there was a one public comment that was omitted from there a guy that talked about from this very vague about where he came from and what he wanted to see but um his whole comments are not in this okay you w to acknowledge that there was a guy from because um do we expect to see that down on the back um it turns out that is actually not he's from okay and he's actually going through some development review stuff in on train this property and I think that's how we up here because he's like

know he's trying to do something really like out there out there with a small piece of property I just didn't think it was it was like a nonsense com true all right any other thoughts on it want I don't know the process is for including right but I don't know that's not problem there's some discretion I mean his comment was nonsense basically is about I I agree he didn't make much sense then he he um didn't tell us I mean he alluded to the fact that he lived elsewhere but then he just had purchased a property or something yeah not I think so especially we don't know who he was okay anything else changes to the minutes right by consensus we're good with these then okay thank you um any conflicts of interest I don't think so don't have any site or anything today um we have no public hearings so we'll move on to agenda item number two are there any citizens wishing to address the commission on any agenda items okay all right um seeing them we will move on to well there's no old business's no new business are there any citizens wishing to address the

commission on any non agenda items we have our Ober here which is a great program I just want to say I think so fantastic for those of other Commissioners who aren't aware the League of Women Voters is doing an observer campaign just to come to public meetings run and you know increasing transparency in Mobile government so thank you for being here okay um so we'll move on to number six correspondence reports minutes of other boards and um committees uh there was a handout of the May 14th training Dave did you want to remind people um body has now responded and I think everybody is going to at least part of I think Sarah you said you probably can only do the morning I think I already done the r yeah um I don't know if they're just gon grou or if they're gonna parse everybody out so is everybody else in for the day or not sure if they what wants us to put down for the day okay the entire day that's only probably and a very important item of business from the Easter Bunny yeah um I I got a call from a representative of e and Andrea really took a call and then we got this letter you know assistant or something but yeah it's a it's a kind of you know one of those things we can't an accessory structure be built without a primary structure on the property so unless you guys want to change the rules which is what's being

asked you want to consider that while we're going overc amendments yes Comm L well truthfully I would like to change it but uh not not right at this moment but I I know why that provision was originally put in the code um to you know prevent to prevent Lots from being used for purposes other than residential basically were garages being builts and then that basically took them out of building inventory for um and many of them are used as construction yards and such but um if we're trying to you know work toward increasing density there are accessory structures on on some of these properties um I think it might be worthly considering you know unless there's another reason I guess can I not not be calling being aware of at this point um this became quite a contingent issue when I served on the board as only appeals family that was trying to split the property to couldn't I personally would you know Mak aare I personally have a property that I comine at one point and I the opportunity to split in the future um if I put a a storage shed or something on there more than the one that's small one that's I can move

around there this would it's a full one AC City so don't need it as just a single family l that's all thank you been working with Easter body yes I'm supporting e didn't send candy that one of my favorite things I've seen in okay so moving on from the Easter buddy um uh the letter from R Group uh about dumpster enclosures I know we're all excited to talk about dumpster enclosures again it's our favorite topic do people want to talk about post for dump dumpster closures and the letter we received from BR or um want to give us any kind of context for this or it's only if you want to add those to the list okay what they're proposing yeah all right what do you think I I just don't understand how what they're proposing is not within the second item of what's there that not solid metal so metal is not an option it says number two must construed of wood on the second item it says solid metal and those aren't they metalates Gates oh the gates Okay so like CH but they're asking the so if we struck Gates and vised

enclosures well number one is number one is the enclosure okay number two is about the gates okay I thought we changed that we did this is what we changed it we add it the additional ones on here and I thought we also said if it's facing the right way you need to gate he might be using actually we got chain L fence and slats and he's talking about the enclosure Enos can be very expensive I'm looking at one on a project right now you're looking at 15 20 grand yeah they're using an old code they're not using the one that we changed but the one that we changed still doesn't have metal as one metal would that be a significant is that cheaper than some of those other options wellow it's a lot cheaper when they had to have masonary enclosures I mean what's the between metal and a chain L fence with slats yeah you know I think using the term if we're going to change it using the term uses in architectural metal panels is prob

not sure c0 steel is really desirable mod um that is a steel that basically is designed to rest and stay rested it becomes a basically a u a Blackboard for vandals to WR on that you can't erase it was painted steel you could clean it or paint over it if it's C it basically has a TT rough surface that is just oxidized it's to eventually it will rest over again it heals itself but that takes years and years the uh it used to be fairly common on Transportation fridges and G they determined that it was not living up to its expected benefits and I think I think Michigan as well as many other states as material because it does continue to rust throughout its life and eventually we as well that's really good information do you think what do you think about other metals specify well just a a painted or um painted surface I suppose calized brushed would also be acceptable C is is supposed to give you a rustic quot but rustic and Rusty are similar um okay is this something we would need to like go back to the no you guys kind of tell us what you

want we can put this in the next set of and up on the screen is the exist the language that we have now um on that I'm sorry I can't read it very well uh does that include those uh the metal panels those architectual metal panels that they're speaking of here is it so our current is not allow for they're asking for it to beend they just the number one part of the code with the details material says enclosure must be constructed brick dective concrete pressure treated wood Cedar chain link with slats or vinyl composite material which matches or compl the principal building so wood plastic and concrete brick it gives them a lot of option anyone opposed to adding architectural metal panels or painted architecturals is there any reason not to include this I don't know if that would include what Stephen was talking about I certainly don't want that sounds he's

get the opposite of what's asking excluding steeling Steve that makes sense I don't know if I like giz Ste that think about corn silos that's galvaniz steel is that what you want I mean I still like Wayne's idea of having people painting girls on the dumpster and then you get away from is all your fault no I thought Wayne's idea was brilliant we that painted metal painted architectural metal panels thate on [Music] noted CHR R you look a to I just think there's a myriad of options there and you know do we need to add one more I mean I think it's a good idea to have a metal option but I agree that like galvanized I just see I would see like a sunny day and it's just reflecting like and blinding people you know um so that would be my biggest problem with galvaniz to but I do think there should be a metal option we a little more research yeah do that what we can also oops be careful what you ask

for yeah okay great um we don't have any trainings today so we will go on to meeting which is Our Land Development amends regulations okay so now we're getting to the point where we may have already touched sections so since you guys may have already approved a draft that's where I'm telling you now that you're already approved adding the front um yard parking waiver language P at its own subsection but we're proposing now to also remove the the 12 in of curving surface along the side Lot line out of this d section into its own section and calling it The 12 in buffer requirement along the length of the side line and this is to protect the entire side line instead of just in the front there are a number of properties in town that use shared driveways think they're alling at this point yeah so the shared driveways are previously approved hard parking surface uh residential locations so they're not subject um well to the to the E1 so they're not subject to these requirements but the most recent issue we had I think with a shared gu possibility

was with black rocks propos construction started with and I guess again if we're working at trying to allow for dity should we really be shared driveways they can legally record easements for other properties to provide for the longevity that's needed for that it opens up some more space on LS you can share and on Commercial drives on especially on the major highways it's it's actually promoted and and the state even pay an incentive um to some of businesses to share so I guess just wondering if we should consider that as well um if I may so we already have changed we already have a draft for commercial this is only in the single family and L MD sections so then um so just let you know this it's single family two family so um we already have the commercial part drafted to allow shared parking and driveways and all but again we're we're reducing try so yeah we would have to write something for this section here but commercial if this is the I don't think it's a rush you have to do it with this set of things it's going to take a little bit more study but again kind of moves us along in the same direction we've been going res I think we adopted this 12 in separation requirement not not necessarily when the LDC was adopted in 2019 maybe two or

three years later and the intent was the intent basically make sure we're trying to catch as much storm water running off that driveway as possible and to to some of the conflict that comes with that driveway but mainly as about um making sure it's not infer St to the property line which can generate you know bad bad situation between nebs um and capture that run out at the same time we have found some uh some situations that we anticipate that you know unintended poor consequences of this there onebody one foot area and put Stone in it and a lot of the stone washed out storm last year and you know basically the absentee landlord End Street so that's just situation where they illegally did oh but yeah they illegally did it and they had removed the neighbor's driveway off their property and illegally added their driveway to fix it they put the Rock in between and then we had one Wayne was working on Project where uh there was a retaining wall next to the property so the driveway actually going to the

garage was up against a retaining wall and I think we made an exception we did on that one it's the last sentence yeah besides I don't know lot problems separation it's definitely something our hydraulic Engineers Happ about having that there is there are issues with system not captured naturally but Shar driveways are a small portion of the driveways single digent are you guys W to add sh driveway language to um where are we at years that inspection to allow for it unless like another exception same thing with the commercial that they go through the shared parking agreement rep sh driveway it because I've never had that here in market like is it work well I you think it's something we should try to support for or no um neighbors the problem is a one foot area is very hard to maintain they have to fill it with stone she

alluded to there in the winter time you're using snowblowers some of you and you can have problems there so I just think it's a very difficult thing to maintain one foot hard the maintain we have that at our house of rocks because it was a separation of sidewalk and it's shovel and still [Music] shoveling awkward space but we kind of two different issues one is like are we okay with the section H there and the 12 in buffer and then there's the other question of the I like the intent of this like I guess said you talk to the city hydrologist about this and they Al so this is the the language that is already in the code we're just moving it out the section and put its own oh however the section it was in was front yard so it was only for the front yard and the of here is along the entire oh I see and it's not just Stone they just chose to do some you can do grass you can do other things as long as you have that buffer you know if we're going to keep it it might be smart to think about getting rid of the C option the other problem run into is let's say you've only got 9 ft between your house and the blot line and your garage is in the back like a lot of the houses on Pine Street and

other areas is a town I leave a foot really restricts what you can do well if I me you can still drive on a lot of what gets done with rock you can drive on you can still drive over comp Lim I'm kind of concerned about what you mentioned with snow blowers and throwing rocks that's kind of scary um I think we should if we're going to change it should uh not allow for loose Stone any there's permeable papers you can put in there there's other types you could you could require some type of permeable strip along there but obviously if you go to per you're still going to have run out passing over that another option might be to allow for a curve space for to property but that's not really going to provide for peration either so guess is part of the problem but um I understand the goal of trying to prevent runoff going from one private property to another and I'm not sure we have a a

good solution to a though um this accomplishes something but creat problem react too quickly and changing you might just be substituting a different problem so maybe no loose gravel we could add that langu solve some of the a little bit of the maintenance issues perhaps we could add maybe the pap yeah it says per surface that a lot of okay are we okay with that get rid of all those okay and then we talk since we have other things we can talk about question when you're saying another day you mean this year because we only have one more session that's right um yeah what do people think want en I brought it up just with the idea of getting it on the list for next year some

exensive all right so back to storage we talked about um storage and um thank you for your work flushing out we talked about a prior meeting um look like there was some addition yeah so we deleted oh no unrelated commercial that was one of the additions into section A and we deleted um flamable from B we did that to this one as well no unrelated commercial and deleted that's you guys oh in the cor um one right here adding common public Corridor uh g under the self storage facility wasn't outside build access yeah that all those changes seem consistent with what we discussed last everybody happy with the other change that wasn't related to storage but was part of this um and use chart diagram was issue I

brought up about utility col generation in the industrial manufacturing District was consensus to to add that as a special use bottom line check to add it for industrial industrial Manufacturing in particular because of the substation that still exists on the wiscons yeah good catch so putting that as a special I that about that and we all agre with you Steve that that would be appropriate for okay good um storage so all the storage good with storage else okay great um add definition drwing tol oh yes the measuring the W width and depth of lots when the Lots aren't a rectangle like this give an example of how we measuring a lot with or anything a lot that's not a regular you know 50 by 150 and this will help both the zoning office and the assessment office will

have something point to to let people know and using the same type of meur okay so just adding that graphic uh the graphic and the definition and okay lot dep definition and then also explaining under the U application for land divisions that a tentative personal map is only allowed to be submitted if there are no structures or improvements and this is all um looked reviewed by our City attorney any comments on that [Music] section um okay home stays vacation home here due to the changes about adding the uses of andx we need to update the section but also because of the way that the short termal portion of the buer code reads we actually need to change this the language to not being reference off of a registered home stay it has to be whereabout parcels and not registration so this is something that the attorney worked on to help so with the fire code um requirement so that we're now legally question I understand I think back the LBC is not the ordinance that caps shortterm rental so that's still another

recation we should be looking at master plan we so that's in the city code portion you mean um just if we're going to send recommendations on changes to commission next meeting can we include the rec toce number of LIC lies is sort of doing that um so long-term rental registration is you submit a certificate or an application and that certificate can cover as many units within that structure and that's how we we fire department we all were processing short term rentals it turns out the way the code reads it should be per unit so the fire department has reviewed everything and um there were future uses yeah they they've taken um the number there's a number of people um that have licenses that haven't gotten their homes inspected for the shortterm and still valid it's not a certificate but you you have the right to call your inspection and get a certificate anytime as long as you got one of those paid your permit fee and um so there's about 75 of those out there right now that were holding slots under the 250 so but now they're moving those to another category category and took all the units the extra

units and used those 75 certificates for those units so now the 250 is actually only 250 units and the breaking out those other applications that multiple units into those are each unit an application certificate so so previously it was 250 certificates now it's 250 unit so in a way they' reduced the number reducing that number and they fire chief said they took some time to think about options and work out this plan it seems like pretty ingenious in way just by taking the future use of numbers and setting those sides but they're being counted but they're different category now now you can't if you have one of those you can't call them any time and say oh I want my place inspected next tell you well as soon as one comes available next on the list so now yeah that's so Steve you're saying we should recommend that the city on top of that well I think that's a a great first step but when we originally set the cap at 250 this body was looking at having only 250 in town for discussion we had and I guess it was interpreted differently by the fire DePere so that we ended up with a lot more than 250 when we went through the planning the master plan discussion years so ago we were talking about lowering it below the 250 150 was there as a possibility um

with the realization I think when we were discussing it that it could take 10 years or more basically for to get down to that because we've already authorized a lot of them and we'd have to wait for them to actually of existence but if we're going to try to create some more homes for people who actually want to live here that was discussion was can we reduce it below 250 and it's not part of the LDC so we we've already made that recommendation I think in the master plan but when we had the joint meeting with the city Commission on this part with that I think it was also brought up there that you know we were interested in reducing it below to 250 and I don't know that we actually conveyed that in writing as a recommendation other than the language that's inserted into the master that's what I guess I was suggesting is it if it has to be a separate M separate from the LC then maybe you should also be looking at that as a communication okay what about that a question how long can you stay in the shortterm less than 30 days what less than 30 days less than days also question how many so how many shortterm do we currently have [Music] how now 250 okay so that so did you guys reduce like because interpretation of the did

you like roke it just happened that it worked out the future use people that weren't using it that they were able move it so every year I see three or less of short-term rental application to review so when someone sells it they lose that short-term rental so they what they were doing is the waiting list which has hundreds people want it they let me know okay I this has opened up now go through the waiting list to see who now um can be approv for it like I and I may go that the zoning may not allow for one and I would write that up but then maybe the next one the zoning would allow so it is 2 but Steve is correct if um say this you did want to reduce it it will take if we that so I suggestion either bring this up while we're talking about development code with the city commission at work session or put it in your next report fairly sure they're aware that's the recation master I've asked been discussed think so you know they've already made this move to try to reduce back to the real 250 which we were at probably over 300 units so but I don't know probably probably sounds that that recommendation okay and maybe when it does when we get to the point where

we're like making that recommendation we have another discussion on what number we would recommend if we want to be specific 200 or50 whatever but I think yeah interesting all right well getting back to this then um we good with some of this sounds like it's been the City attorney soing what about parcels any objection language in that section on home stays and vacation home okay then that looks good let's move on to the mobile home park district this is one just came about there was a change in the mobile Lo commission act or rules that allow for communities to impose more zoning um on those those of facilities the only thing we suggesting is to add accessory structures because really there's not a whole lot within the part itself we can't really make any kind of Z rules about really only roads accessory structures and signs which we already have accessory structures comes up because we know there's legal accessory structure one faili over property and then we do have another one

that wants to build an accessory structure until we add use so the proposal is ADD as a per principal use and then to have these regulations for the MHP District consent is when you say there is one or two seems to me that mobile home both have a fairly large number small storage shs B whatever else is apure refer to here or something much larger they're wanting to build a a big detach garage for their site okay but okay I mean either under state law or the fact that we couldn't regulate it they've been allow we're not looking to Reg anything removing just to have some authority over if there's a accessory structure built or they want to request one that's not part that LE that's what we found there's one by that really was not near anybody's well might have sort close to some of these trailer but it's also going over

the property it might have built by thank you anybody have any issues with adding accessory buildings and structures into this District we okay with this okay seeing there's no issues that looks good all right so now we're on to the six fo High Clos construction fence requirements here okay so at the last meeting the plan commission reviewed a proposal to change the six foot high um close construction defense requirements for Corner Lots reset homes and if the neighbor is allowed to have it in location also proposed a timeline for temporary events so here are the proposed changes for the PC Comas and um the addition of a figure that shows how they're applied but also we added um wall regulations and photos of walls and this is the first time you're seeing that so if you guys don't like that when you remove it but here's the language of that you had ear reviewed um had made some changes I know for the um Mr Primo mentioned about before it said like temporary fences cannot be in place greater than six months of the calendar year but to change it to be State temporary garden and snow fences be more specific because you may have um construction

fenes so that was per that suggestion and here is the figure kind of showing what all of this up here that you reviewed the last time we talked about that this is what it would Vision look like are scenarios good that's good question um on there is the side yard that's in yellow is that like a driveway no it's just a sidey so you have your front yard your reard and your side yards you could have a driveway going from the front yard into the side yard because you have that detached garage back there so I was wondering how would they get back there oh yeah so they can do the side yard that's detaching those are I'm kind of like showing you the lots and showing you an example of rear yard right yeah so um they could have a gate on one of these fences and okay for pretend yeah just so um did you have

any comments or issues with the figure being added okay and then did you have um any issues with the changes of that temporary fences that actually specifically State The Gardener snow I think that's good that captures what were talking about last meetings to clarify the type that's a good clarification okay so now the big one what do you guys think about the walls that's a lot of walls I look for pictures you know try to give you examples but um we're in this came about we have had a handful of people want to look to put walls in and currently the code doesn't allow for it [Music] um and then also uh that the columns people wanting to put up columns as well offenses so um this is the language that came up with and then we had pictures to kind of show you you know some examples of what the walls could look like and to see you know you know you guys think about adding that that language is there a way to maybe just choose a few examples of the walls yeah that's not be in the code that's just for you guys to see wall no that is not in theode those are just examples of walls what we're talking about what people have brought to us okay this is examples sorry there are some sketches in the street Corridor part of the code that show some wall options that are

like these that's the only other place where it'sit lock maybe what da was saying addresses this question my question was um you said currently allow places is that exemp in the farm base code correct districts because the downtown you can have like an 18t tall you know wall and then have have the wall almost band that they put a wall if the the building wasn't to be built to the I think it makes a lot of sense to allow them elsewhere as well something we do business district I guess that yellow language okay then move on [Music] to extraction and process this is a pretty late addition to this um kind of looking through some other code for some ideas on another part of this that came across some standards that dealt with um exavation and I looking back at what we have which is 6322 natural resource extraction um and I realized that doesn't deal with natural resource Pro

processing natur research material and I was kind of seeing some other things in that part of the code that um were Laing I thought that were better represented in this other set of set of Standards so these aren't actually like verbatim What I Call other code but I kind of I changed some things so that it incorporates what we had in here I thought was good with some other things thought good and then we didn't have a reference to any of this in the article 8 which isal performance standards and I thought it would be smart to put a subsection in there that just basically refers you back to section 632 um and the reason we originally had is added to the LDC is because the state allows for mining of sand and gravel um without a lot of local control over it um as it is so um we can control some like what we have proposed in here but we really can't control where um to a large degree so wants to mine sand or gravel because the state says it's basically okay for people to mine sand and gravel all over the place um that's nutshell like it says it's only in the indust manufacturing

dist what's that it only applies to few area well as a use but that doesn't mean people do it in a residential area people m s Travel in a residential area law XYZ of the state law yeah and that's what this says I mean it starts out with as Allowed by state law there's this ability to process to mine and process some sand gravel materials um but everything proposed in here is something we can control so we should put those controls in that we can when the state says it can pretty much happen anywhere where this is an economically viable [Music] operation basically the state says yeah well you local authorities can you still have their health safety and Welfare regulations they can control the time they can control some of the things about dust and um you know everything sing water F material and setbacks setbacks will be one of the most important things especially if have some kind of processing equipment running while they're doing this um we haven't had a sanding gravel operation in the city for a while aside from BP has a big huge you know BL that out of but there was one the

illegally right probably legal think so not it was next what he did well yeah maybe next streem but the the state lot allows for br I think was aded during the administration not that Longo do except I thought that Suzanne said you had to meet XYZ you can't be next to Res residential neighborhoods and yeah doesn't [Music] mean was word he was next to houses that was part of the problem I didn't think you could do it next to residential area because we had an issue with the gravel operation when I was over in Iron so I don't know I can't remember what the legal there was a piece that said you could do the the mining but you couldn't do it next to DW a dwelling because it was a residence versus a commercial use one thing that I guess maybe some that there's very few areas of the city that have desirable materials to by um you know unless you're going to start blasting Rock uh most of the soils are too silty to be in value um VP has most there were a few other spots they empty them City when we were operating our landfill in city we were really fighting to find enough to

use oh yeah just you know so in that one District where it's a permitted use these standards were apply in other areas where it's allowed by state law it's not it's a legal use that the state get permit for um our rules would just apply on top of that so like for example that one section number two on set setbacks includes language May reduce these Dimensions ter operation so the planning commission's role would be kind like retroactive that would only be the case where have to per that's wonder I or may also apply conservation Recreation District well I listed as speci use I guess I'm not familiar enough with the statute now like don't understand like what commission's role is I'm thinking there could be a situation where somebody is actually doing not just money but like say the golf course at some point wanted to take take up part of their course in mind not likely to happen but it could um so but they might also be doing just site work that while they're doing site work doing the mining

part in addition to that so could be two things at once where they come in for a site plan we're going to do this and they do have a bunch of plans to do stuff at the golf course over time not that I any of it really involes mining you know but just hypothetically uh somebody building down in South Marquette could potentially do site work and we could also do mining at the same time just removing back so they might come to site to the Planning Commission for a site plan for the site work itself you have to get a permit over disturbing s that is now administra I got moved to administrative okay um but it's a special land use in the conservation Recreation so that's the time the plan commission would review as a special for that it it doesn't say anything about I am ADD seems although I don't know I don't know what the soils are like under the energy think they were already processing material did the demolition um contractor had a Crusher and Crush all concrete

tax seem and I guess if we are going to allow it on on conservation Recreation probably more likely to ski C course especially as climate changes and may not be ski here anymore there's materal there and it's actually actually is being M from the back side currently in sand so um are you thinking of adding it as a special land for im as well that's what's in here is that it's only a special land use for CR oh for processing I'm sorry I was already looking processing part I'm looking [Music] at get National resource extraction operations it's only a special land used for conservation recation yeah sorry just a question this would not affect like when they move thousands of yards put them apartments up out by the S treatment plant they had to remove thousands and thousands of yards of that big hill would you call that processing or talk about tring and site work for a development that's that's that's not Min that's no and then of course you're going to close up the Gold Line on Prospect Street in the basement of the

[Music] house I think it's on Prospect I'm not sure Steve brought prospect prospect the old how do you think Prospect name channel six is already left there was there are still mines on pres kle too not active there was mines throughout the they just didn't very good so they get very big but I do have one comment on the provision in these U this language about preventing standing water and um I think it's pretty standard operating practice in any sand pit or mining operation to actually dig us up and allow it to fill with green water and that's what you use to keep the dust out of it travel roads and in the work areas is um don't bring in other water trucks to do it for loaders that are processing the material just take buckets out of the sum and sprinkle it on the road um that's what years City P so you're saying um

typically can't keep it wet all the time anyway so I mean um it can be for mosquitoes recognize that and uh the whole site does have to be umed generally so it's not really dring Hazard they're not typically that deep anyway typically only a couple feet deep but you need a source of water and um most of these sites aren't necessarily going to be connected to the city water system or putting in a large well to get enough water unless they're actually washing Stone or something like that um but just for dust control so you just dig it something on the property use that as your water source to control dust so you we're prohibiting it now under this itun are you guys saying you did want it a special use industrial oh right yeah do we want to add this to Industrial

they so should it be permed does the p the blp have the same exemptions the city itself does they they have title to their Nott to yeah yeah they have they can the power PL itself exempt because that was a conservation Recreation so yeah they don't have they have immunity immunity functions of and they have actually allowed contractors to set up equipment there to process s occasionally when they've either sold it out there to the contractor or Don to projects such as in soccer fields I think some of the projects it probably should be one of the permanent places yeah I just add we're saying about government that doesn't mean that they don't have to follow any Zing regulations just means that they can be Exempted in certain cases um we made them follow the regulations for site plan for their expansion of office building they do landscaping no they a lot of landscaping in front of the building um the parking

lot Edition right Street City I think pretty closely didn't they but this is one where question mark maybe City would want to have to follow these standards if they open up area um or have them Implement some of the standards where they might be reluctant to city and the blp don't have closest like relationship as far Asing ey on should be you know done with development in terms development so it might be good did have and in this situation well we can't go back something that's been for decades and per and follow Cod legally well I think it might make sense to try to regulate operations that they do uh commercially are under contract when they when they just sell his on there and allow the contractor go in and operate his his processing on site whe they're operating themselves or municipal

ASU I think you can have it may not be able to enforce it to have do others agree with that no well I mean very seldom does anybody ha any sand out light kid and I guess what's wor trucks hauling from past the ski hill into town you know 50 60 trucks hauling or three trucks hauling out of there to Something in area they do not let anybody go in there and just grab that sand a lot of sand came out of there when that addition went out to their building I know that we worked on that'll able to keep using that okay where land on this do we want to includ it as per use for the board power and special for go down the line and vot on this or how are people feeling are we just tired tired what what are you saying right now okay so we have a decision to add the natural resource um extraction and processing as a permitted use for the board of Light and Power districts right

in our code um and then maybe a special ladies permit for the IM districts is what we no I'm totally confused we're saying light and power is allowed permitted it's allowed yeah yeah okay yeah and then if they're going to do it on the industri districts it's possible with a special land permit so the review process all that sound good everybody's okay with that all right um and then yeah the environmental performance standard section there just clarifies right the exavation and Mining activities and then kind of makes it compant with the statute right um all right then can we move on to the Noni section okay in this one um we're looking to add a little bit more language so in the highlighted yellow was already approved language from the Planning Commission in a previous work SE and in blue is the proposed new language and what we're proposing is that the class A that does not go to the B we're adding standards to rebuild basically back when we wrote the new Land Development code we allowed for one and two family uses and structures automatically from they did not have to go fromont the like they did so um but we didn't have any

reconstruction language and this is the proposal we have for that that the Reconstruction of Class A non one and two family structures that did not get a Class A approval from the border zon appeals upon application for reconstruction The Proposal the structure will need the side set back to the zoning District in order to be approved if the structure and approaches this is kind of esoteric but it's um it's an important part of um how we determine whether or not building should continue to be maintained or they should can be required to basically be based out by not being bu Class A means you know we have these two classes and it it was that all nonconforming buildings homes that were U yeah were legally noning were classform unless they got it went in front of the board Z own fs and met conditions and became a Class A and once they became a Class A you could rebuild exactly what you presented that's the reason people get Class A EAS previously now they're automatic just for the one and two family with that blue

language confus langu so it says that um if structure needs the set building district will be approved but if it encroaches over the property line that cannot be rebuilt if it goes to the property line between the setb and property line what is that say again if it's between the setback and the property line is it allow it to be rebuilt not in the side yard setback so we're saying it can't be built in the side yard setback and it also can't be rebuilt if it has anach over okay but it can be re in the front yard the re it's protecting the neighbors I think she might have a good point though in saying that maybe this needs to be something we say in addition structure that comes right after okay all right then so the other thing is [Music] um designated by the border zoning appeals adding the same kind of language of if it's damaged after the board zoning pills designates it as a Class A it can only be refilled exactly as what was approved by the board using the submitted survey application and attachments to the case f and additionally any conditions set by the board must be followed during recru so it's just providing them so they understand that when it's damaged by what does it mean by being reilt what

is it damage mentioned maintenance of nonconforming structure yeah is maintenance for the the what we're talking about being rebuilt as a maintenance [Music] the M there's maintenance further on down for the class B stuff and the expansion looks like just a change yeah you guys did review this da said that um he he said better with the blue say having it is first gred yeah so we just made a couple the next couple things [Music] are that Wass good then we move on to the section uh 78 reconstruction black we're just putting a heading on that part chapter uh and then we get into this um time period there where we got 18 highlighted in blue because it was 24 what we scratched out in there proposing maybe January um one reason for that is it was set at two years the typical zoning or VC approval for variance or what is there another situation where it's a year well now the langues the class approval a year yeah so two years is an exceptionally long time um if the intent

is that you you want these things to be either eliminated or rebuilt two two years can be three building Seasons you know and that's maybe longer than it needs to be um if somebody's serious about rebuilding something 18 months depending on they apply usually going to be two building and that should be plenty of time for somebody to start their project on something like this and if it's not maybe it should be ped out maybe not really serious about it do we have any idea what the usual time frame is with the dealing with insurance invs yeah that's the one that really comes off the line because it it usually takes over a year for insurance claim to be settled so got a house that's been fired down sitting for a year to two years before work starts to um we've had lots of complaints from Neighbors about that I think can if there's any suspicion of arson or anything like that can extend in several years so even though I support the 18 months I guess maybe we should have a clause in there that allows for an exception still under appeal toany one of them that comes to mind not with relation just the fact that it took a

long time I think before any action was taken on it was the to the it was 500 oh yes over years came down basically from what I heard anyway was they have trouble [Music] colle but if you guys are good with add the language keeping the 18 months change with the exception language and then um the same language as before but we would need to change for what D when adding in addition to that last sentence yeah addition structure yeah sounds good you guys okay that okay Green Belt standard so we had talked about it before and um the PC asked for it to come back later dat later date um and wanted to know what comparable codes were on this from other cities and what was the Third Street for so in here on the blue

quarter requirements is 10 feet for a buer and then as you guys read a lot of the other cities and things like that were a lot smaller as well so after reading all that um what do you guys think about reducing the MFR buffer and then possibly not having it be 30 40 reducing it to a smaller amount well I can see reducing it but um because I support the buffers but after driving back and that yesterday I guess I had a few extra thoughts looking at uh some of the issues are with these puffers and that uh you're requiring them to plant trees next to the residences and uh with climate change increasing ice storms and perhaps more fires were actually adding some perils to the residences where we require this to be still so there are some tradeoffs that I guess we have to take into consideration um in particular the trees that suffered the most damage um that I noticed yesterday were the ones that are in isolated rows like a buffer STP or just uh along the highway in an isolated scen or whatever they're not protected in the forested area and those ice

storms and windstorms uh really did some major D just something else to keep in mind even MSU publishes a pamplet um that I know we used to distribute in chocolate because of the fire there play wives they recommend certain clear areas around your home without vegetation or without based on the height of the vegetation keep it that at least that height away from your your structure um and you've also seen what happened with the plantings what what part they play in California out there so has climate changes we're not going to see the same benefits from buffers that be tradition SE I can't tell I I support buffers but I I guess I'm getting a little Leary about what we uh whether we should be requiring specifics uh on to the degree that we currently do in the C it might I mean the city does have some governmental immunity but that doesn't protect people from filing suits in the future if if they feel that the uh the buffer is [Music] adding so you're talking about in

general it's not the question on the chart I did have though is are we requiring a buffer on both sides of the property line in some of these instances no [Music] proposal yeah but if it's the adjacent is 40 you are correct on some of them there is reading that so is building something adjacent to an MFR they have and if MFR is building something adjacent to an so that's total 8 between thank you was interesting how they did it by style in the neighborhood there uh for Grand Rec like traditional mid 20 Century and they have zoning district midy there are but I know my brother post they had some big post war they just that's what they call those and then just the timing not the arital style anyway uh B

on guys didn't want if you still wanted to sit on this after discussion could we recognize this was a lot of information apprciate you guys to see how different it it made me like happy about our Green Space like that's good distinct we Value Green Space I can see Arguments for shrinking that but like the green space that we have MI stands up [Music] we want to sit on this again or do we have opinions that we like discuss about onf and possibil sound like next meeting okay next meeting all right you're gonna have to make a decision at some point so come after I know I think we're all a little tired um let's see oh okay we got something about theal right yeah we had this conversation after Jane was here to talk about the bill

name you guys looked at the code and the only change at the time recommended this was going to be changes for this this was one of the first meetings we was to change MFR from permitted from special to permitted use for intentional Community we def Jame had brought us some Andre I brought us some information about other another basically perspective on those [Music] or I don't know the best terminology was Collective to differentiate it from from Cooperative because the intent I'll be quiet so you is more or less that's more of a financial Arrangement than what we have def we' Define more of a social Arrangement and we're suggesting more a financial yeah that's basically correct Yeah so basically the current definition of intentional dwelling community community that we have in the city is very broad but it it like assumes that there is high social a high degree of social cohesion but in a lot of like what is actually considered a traditional housing Cooperative there is not a high level of social cohesion it's basically just it functions basically the same as a rental unit like um you know like different apartments people live

separately there's no you know other than them being neighbors there's no other um connection point between them but they the way in which it differs from a regular rental is that it's owned by The Cooperative is owned by the house and the house members are shareholders or cooperative holders um yeah like they own stake in the house so it kind of like limits the rent um cost itself and so it's I think that it is important to have two separate definitions one for intentional community that encompasses like those houses that have high degree of social cohesion like the climbers Cooperative um but which are not as much of a financial like where it's not strictly a financial because I I totally understand like a higher you know we want it to be a special land use in a lot of districts um for intentional communities but um for housing cooperatives that are strictly a financial um Arrangement where yeah it's just basically functioning like a rental without a profit making body um I believe that that should be a permitted use in all residential districts um so yeah that's open discussion unun looks like we left James material out of agenda I you think I did but but it's in one of the folders if you bring for this meeting or [Music] this

is I think so yeah there was just a couple of like online resources that we found um that kind of explain the differences well um so yeah it just kind of explains similar to like what I just told you the differences between like an intentional community and a housing cooperative just that there's different types of housing cooperatives it's there's a lot of legal language that goes into the piece that you're you're talking about because then there's that shared liability and stuff I don't know whether that needs to be something the city adds to that is a piece because some of the places it's worked beautifully but other places no wants the shared responsibility of a a problem kind of thing so I don't know if the City attorney would have some ideas as to how you can protect City exposure kind of so to speak because they do own that apartment but they also then are picking up the liability for the whole building per se when they buy into the apartment because the apartment is looked at as a single entity even though they're only owning a piece of it so yeah I think that so the Cooperative is it functions similarly to like a nonprofit or an LLC right but I didn't know if the city needed to have some safeguards as to meeting certain requirements that they have those in place to protect you know even the individual owners of the apartments

I don't know um question do we have like forite condominium requirement for a set of bylaws that account for that is that something that we can adopt transfer into hous Cooperative language you guys yeah can add requirements in there in article six depending on what get what you're saying yeah because you want you want to protect not only the the individual owner but you want to protect the building per seade and maintain its Integrity in case everybody all of a sudden I'm not going to pay that to replace that roof you know it's not my best interest yeah I think that would be something you might want to have some legal jargon as part of that to protect so that there is responsibility now you can go against you would have to sue everybody in that Cooperative then if there's a problem with them not meting Cod because they're all individual owners but they're also part of a Cooperative if there's just some language you just need to make sure you have that to protect everybody yeah but I think yeah so would but put this all the well no one thing I point out is this would be a land use per se it would be a um well take that back I don't think it's necessarily something that we regulate by where it can exist it's just something that weine right exactly I agree completely with that because it's

a it's a financi Arrangement basically and we don't want to say we can't do this kind of financial arrangement in certain districts I don't know I think the issue was and this is what Al brought up the Gan here he brought up the fact that when the tenants of that complex around on R Street tried to purchase the building inform the Cooperative there was something in the code that I remember the details of it but something in the code that was like prohibitive yeah that's not that was not the was what they thought to be the survey survey but apparently they didn't ask a survey ask the neighbor what a survey cost neighbor the neighbor could have had a full boundary survey which would be a lot more expensive than just getting it wasn't that it wasn't permitted use it was it was information about the survey amounts that were not accurate I don't think he was held back from doing that for that reason right that would be only if they were applying for special land use to have what we have an intentional community and that's not what they were actually trying to do they're trying to get a group of people to get a you know find a mortgage I as a group yeah it's in our right or authority but I know like the city of Chicago has recently put in a bunch policies to protect tenants and one of them is like the right of first refusal and so like multi family building is being sold the people living there get like a certain amount of time to try to do something like what commiss is talking about to pull their

resources and purchase it before it goes on the market um and I know some other Progressive cities have tried to do things like that to protect renters in the city so I don't know if that's something we put land code or that's like ordinances outside of the code but I know that this legal opinion you need opinion on that that's something we can look into but I mean we can easily create a definition for something other than what we have now that is more long lines of financial arrang call a collective project in the last def last sentence of the definition of intentional Community it says the property may be owned collectively and or new members of an intentional community may be selected by the community's existing membership that I think collectively is leads me and I look at aot I look at the stuff proved and read some of the other some other SIM materal and I I think if we call it a collective housing Collective and out a definition that's that's an easy addition to can bring that back to the next meeting and maybe maybe we can talk to the City attorney I'm not opposed to the idea I just want to make sure that we do it the best way possible thoughts on this Ian I think the idea again Financial arrangement of a group of people doesn't really matter to us right so I think permitting it in any kind of multi sense we' already made that the

intentional I don't know okay so maybe we flush that out for a future meeting I think it's a benefit for us to put it in the code is at least a Define it so that that's a clear signal that the city is notos to that in any way yeah so if it meant the requirement of a multi you know dwelling I would think that that wouldn't I I think that there was confusion before yeah I think that with the yeah with the 4 10 East Ridge I think that the yeah there was like misinformation with the survey cost but I think it was also just like felt to be a really heavy lift to have to get the special land use because it was like they were trying to get a Cooper like a specific loan that was for cooperatives and so they needed to be identified by the city as a Cooperative in order to get that at least is my understanding um of the issue and so in order to get that they would have to Beal dwelling Community then they'd have to get that special land use and having a separate definition might prevent that from coming up in future so should we ask the lawyer maybe or do a little research on loans to see what of the best language would be that we keep it open enough but yet help the situation I'm not sure we're going be able [Music] talk yeah I can definitely talk to

people to form a Cooperative they would have have to create a legal entity of some kind correct and I guess we have plenty of other examples of buildings in town residences in town that are owned by various types of entities that um if we have to take enforcement against them we are able to do that whether it's the officers of the corporation or the other number of them that are owned by Churches parishes other organizations and kiss as far as I know we don't have any trouble no it's just in how the the terminology whether it was a Cooperative or whether it's a um I'm drawing a blank the other term intentional that yeah so it just how we word that would be and then I know about the financing you're talking about because Misha and stuff they're they have guidelines that fit this kind of thing as well but some things are just going to take longer if you've got put together a legal group and an entity that's going to be in the responsible party that's not quick unfortunately it's certainly not a new idea the fins right fins brought L of cooperative resurrecting an old idea maybe okay cool um thanks thanks uh Comm fitkin for putting this on our Radars that's be a good addition of wetland is [Music]

that sounds like staff has discussed this and has thoughts to share so this was email as well yeah those are my initial notes apologies for the lack of formality but um okay so basically I've just been looking a lot at like Wetland local Wetland organ stuff through my work separately from this um over the past year and the issue that I have with our current definition of wetlands is that last sentence which is the boundaries of wetlands are determined in accordance with the you or Eagle um and the issue it's not necess yeah we talked about this because um what that means is that the city uses the Eagles Wetland map viewer which is like an online mapping tool in order to determine the boundaries of wetlands but Eagle specifically states that you're not supposed to use the Wetland map or tool to determine jurisdictional boundaries of wetlands because it's an estimation it's not like you have to get you essentially would have to get a delineation to be able to actually determine the exact boundaries of wetlands um so it's mostly like a Clarity thing for land owners and the public that I feel like we should not say that in the definition I'm not sure and yeah I guess I propose that we say like in the city's inventory I don't necessarily think that we actually need to do in inventory but potentially just taking out that sentence um I'm not sure like how important it is to say state in the definition like how we determine the boundaries but yeah that's what I was

thinking I just think that it's it's un it's unclear that the boundaries in the Wetland mapper tool are not actually true jurisdictional boundaries and it it causes I know a few of the people who do wetland regulation at Eagle and they're like yeah please don't tell people to use the W M tool to deter and then it sounds like from agenda there it says STS to share well so um when we added the raran buffer overlay which covers Wetland um we had to have something to use as um a delineation of wetland within the city and their Wetland Mapp um I think it actually does a pretty good job when I see what it shows is our wetlands in the city um so it has features of that are shows permanent wet lenss shows Emeral Wetlands which are seasonal mainly and then it shows Wetland soils and the one test case we've had on using the Wetland mapper for site plan approval is the PV on the North End of uh yeah it's

upake um project for shop House Park um north of rol it actually did show Wetland soils in there which there are W um on the North part of the property it does show boundaries along the northedge of property and so I I know it's not perfect um and I I guess I question how they use the word jurisdictional here because if we're talking about what a jurisdictional boundary is or basically talking about whose unit of government does it apply to um in not I I don't know that that's going to be a concern for us in many cases but it is a tool we can use and the flip side of that is there isn't another tool that we can use there is no City inventory equipments um so that brings up the question of who's going to determine if there's where the Wetland is if we can't use the map or the the D Mapp mapping tool um are we going to make the developer determine where it is um or I I don't know what the other what other answer there is to that question if we want to have a raring buffer overlay that applies to weap I think we either have to require the developer to show us where we mon is or we don't

have a if we're not because I don't think those are two options the city's not City can't produce and this is primarily for that District it well the ran overlay district is as an overlay it's floating District so it applies everywhere where we have surface water s or [Music] um yeah and some of this is dealt with by the DQ of course or eil um through building uh building permits when somebody you know pulls a building permit this the Count's erosion control office gets involved determines you know where they need to put up Sil fencing and if there's Wetlands there I think they will um act on making sure that developers complying with the or communicating with e if not comping State they don't enforce a state one think they would in their erosion control duties make sure that building side construction just to say um I think traditionally to build next to the state I thought required outsite delation

un qualified individual and if we want something in the code that says okay this is our boundary unless you until you produce an onsite alation by toess maybe I don't have all the information how they're doing today but um we should still be able to use what's available to us and then if they want to prove us WR or you know create a more definitive Bound in the field that we should be willing to accept that are you are you concerned with the because I'm looking at the wet M that it's too Co it doesn't Pi up small um yeah and just it's yeah mostly that but it's not necessarily I don't know I just think that the I think it's to I think that the definition saying that it uses that tool is just strange [Music] it captures like the big ones I agree with um Steve that I think that ultimately it's the developer the land owner's responsibility um like the burden Up is on them to like get a delineation if they want to build like near near watland where we question whether like where the boundary

is I wonder what do you know I know likeing section 404 of the wire act federal law and it also Tes like Wetlands section about W I wonder what tools they use um I believe they use the national Wetland inventory um but then it would still then they would require elimination won't be a problem till we cover up stream or something and then everybody in the world will be here to tell us that we mucked up we've used our buer overlay I we we' pled several site plan cases already um one where we did where they created Rari offers yeah Wetland areas is the housing that's going up on H and and Lake Shore uh so our code does go beyond the the state federal requirement for in that it does require vegetated flers to be um inot buffers to be created so that's plantings in that 10 foot area between the edge of wetland and building itself um now those were I think on the heart North Harbor whatever but we got involved after e yeah they had already so they already everything out yeah but we were able to use that I think they had

identified but it matched up somewhat with the not not perfectly of course but it matched up somewh with with the state M um we were able to use their site PL to say this is where the are this strips according to our code so that it I mean it is helpful what we have all right well I don't know you guys think about you produce qualified delation yeah true kept it written like that and I I don't recall what the um qualifications are I believe the state certifies people to actually delate that some category and I think you could require that a delineation be done by a State Certified individual if the developer wants to do something other than City I guess what I don't understand is larette wouldn't be here if they had filled in weights nothing on press guot on the two ball fields the apartments on the other

side low rain housing none of that would be here uh whatever it is now L&M down there wouldn't be there and the other that bugs me is because every County with less than 100,000 people I'm under completely different set of rules and counties with over 100,000 people I mean the definition of a wet land alone there's three things there plant life the soil I can't remember the third one but up here one and I asked she was with the DEQ or Eagle I said what what about that Cattail growing up in a little thing on top shial of which there are oh that's enough land wet land I mean it's crazy and down state if I remember right they can fill in five acres no questions asked up here new it's a wetland I don't know you knew that right um you know there's two different sets of rules the way that I understand that part 303 applies is that it's based on those three indicators like soil vegetation hydrology like wetness only what up here so is the one that you're stating with up here only one in any County there less than 100,000 people and it's a wet land over 100,000 people it's not a wetland you have to have all three present I mean it's not a big deal I'm just saying something's wrong it's not fair and I imagine when they did this this was their hunting

crowd but again Marquette lot of Marquette wouldn't be here if they hadn't filled in wetlands and I'm talking wet lamps I went to the swamp school and they call it the swamp school for nothing well anyway what it's worth that's it I'm done I think I think gave us a good some good language to improve things well that who is the experts um well we're the experts we're collectively the experts because we get to write some of the code for our community no who's going to be the expert you go to that you claim it's a wetland or not where it starts or it stops he was saying they have an engineer program at tech for that no I I don't know where you get the CER I know the state certifies people I don't know what test or what qualifications they have to take to do it but I presume it's it's somewhat similar to the soil and sedimentation erosion control ACT test that you and I am taking it's there is a state level like certification so like for example people that I know who have Wetland delineations there's a few at severe Watershed partnership there's usually a few at any like consulting firm like I know Tri media I've spoken to their like primary Wetland delineator like you can hire a private consult to and they all have license basically do it that other we got Steve went to class for a couple hours keeps renewing them every years whatever it

is all right well I think that [Music] us for bring so that's good all right it is late and we are all tired so I think at this point we will unless there's more discussion on any otes we will go to commission and staff comments [Music] commission no com Happy Spring and end of parking van problem just I still support these so that's all the last meeting we young from and new comment on the road conditions of Norwood Street and I want to point out that that is completely property um you can see where the rightwe ends there there's there's black lines around the city RightWay uh once you're outside of that so hopefully they are going to talk with because that isart and Norway totally resp um other thing is I just uh let you know on uh my office is organizing a bicycle Rodeo that's going to take place on May 31st here at City Hall we've got the police department to help we're going to have fire truck here we're going to have

a bunch of volunteers and a bunch of course things that kids can ride and learn some safety uh skills riding in traffic we've got car cutouts that are being painted foric cars um yeah and we're going to be giving away lots of B helmet um bicycle lights if any of you want to volunteer we're still looking for some volunteers we're trying to hit 25 we've got about 16 people now so um it's going to be that's Saturday May 31st and we'll be get some press stuff out once we're done you know with the organizing close put the time on there um I think it's going to be advertised as 10 one yeah awesome oh [Music] that I'll send you all our PSA a resource question written about it right now yeah okay thanks the only thing I have is the city commission approved Dallas last night there she work yeah thank you for volunteering for that um yeah I don't have any com looking for today's that sounds f I think it's a great idea

yeah yeah if you would confirm you know okay sounds good well we will adjourn this meeting at 8:13