Parks and Recreation Advisory Committee - Regular Meeting

Call to order the February meeting of the Parks and Rec Committee. Can we oh, Well, okay. Can you give us a roll call?

Alright. Member Hannegie? Member Balthus? Here. Member Spindler?

Here.

Vice chair Lynch?

Here.

Member Aegis?

Here.

Member Kramer?

Here.

And chair Siegel?

Here. Can we stand for the pledge of allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States Of America, the republic for which it stands,

only nation

under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Before we begin our meeting today, I would like to introduce Beth Balthas. And now we have our very own pickleball player right on this committee. Welcome. Yeah. I am thrilled to see you. And It's a privilege. You're you're a welcome addition.

Thank you. Appreciate that.

Did you wanna tell us anything about yourself?

I'm Beth Waltis. I've lived here four or five years, and I'm literally here by accident. So it was so good we couldn't leave, and here we are.

Well, we're thrilled to have you. Our, our first thing on our agenda is the election of the chair and the vice chair.

Okay. On the agenda.

Just get that going.

No. That comes I get

I get it.

Let's approve the agenda for this month. All those in favor? Or do I hear a motion?

I'll make a motion to

approve. Thank you.

I'll second.

Okay. And those in favor? Aye. Aye. And now we're on to the election of the chairman for the, next year of the Parks and Rec Committee. Do I hear a nomination?

I nominate Dolores.

Are there other nominations?

I'll make a second.

Aye. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you. It was a real hard job, and I've been I've been working on it. And how about our vice chair? I'd like to nominate Darren. Okay. I'll second that. Mhmm. Okay. And those in favor of are there other nominations? And, those in favor of mister Spindler? Aye. Aye. You win. Thank you. You're there. We will now we will continue with the we need the approval of the minutes of our last meeting. Can I hear a a motion?

I'll give a motion. Yep.

And a second. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. And we will now go to, let's move on to our, we have our old business. Well no. Okay. I don't have an up to date. Do you have

The old business? Yeah. Yep. So I have a presentation to

talk Yes. And that's what I wanted to

Our favorite topic is

the Yeah. We were Darren is gonna tell us. He's made this presentation before, and I think it will be of interest to everybody that's here. Won't you give you know, let's tell us and share.

Yes. And while he's making a way making his way here, I just wanna make an announcement. Since the city council meeting is tonight at 05:30, we have been asked to adjourn by 04:45 so that way they can prepare.

Alright. So a few months back, I had, I guess it's probably eight, ten weeks, twelve weeks, I said, why don't we see if we could get together the pickleball players who would like to have more pickleball, and folks at the Racket Center who would like more courts, and the folks next door. Mrs. Cadwell is here today. And see if we can go to do some pickleball exploration to visit some places where they put some mitigation tools in place.

It took us a little while to get it arranged between bad weather, my schedule, other schedules. And about ten days ago, we were able to make that happen on a Saturday. So Mr. Annette, Tim Annette, who is, I'll call leading the charge to from the pickleball players side, and the Cadwells who are representing very well their group, the San Marco Villas. We were able to go up to Bonita Springs to a facility that installed some pickleball sound mitigation.

And I'll say that I'm gonna skip over the second slide. But, Beth, you, these are some of the fun things that you're about to learn about. So I got to learn a lot about trees and shade over the last year and government funding and government project processes. But really, we get to meet a lot of nice people. And I think number two, we're doing a lot of work on pickleball noise and trying to find a solution here that works for for everybody.

And I actually found this work very interesting and fascinating. So, I 'm gonna point out a couple of things about our place first, the Racket Center. And then I'm gonna point out a couple of things about the three places we went and visited, mister Annette and I. The Cadwells went to one of them with us. And I'll explain that process.

But I want to point out here for everybody that the size of our facility is 200 feet by 350 feet. And it's important to note the size of this because you're gonna see in a couple of the slides the proximity of homes at the place that we went and visited. And they were actually closer to the pickleball courts than the length and width of our facility. So I think that's important to know. And I also did an overview of the parking lot and that's gonna come in later because I think we've got a better solution than what's been proposed before.

I made this presentation at the city council workshop a few weeks back that was open to the public as well. But we wanna have it here with proper notice and then we're take from this and maybe we can make some recommendations on our three two visit to city council. So we met this gentleman. His name is Dale Vanskoyek. He actually is I call him the pickleball sound whisperer. And it's interesting because he is a pickleball player. He's a pickleball coach. But he also lives in this community where we went. So he also lives by these courts. But more important than that, he found his way into the pickleball noise business a number of years ago.

And he is also he teaches on this at the college level, if you wouldn't believe this. This is now into college courses. But mister Vinskoyek has a wealth of knowledge about the the sound of pickleball and how it affects neighboring properties, etcetera. We also learned a little bit about rackets and other things like that. So we'll talk about that as well.

But the first thing that we did is we went to Highland Woods, which is where he personally lives. And he had a product there called e noise control. I put a link to the website where you can see kind of a case study from the company that produces that product. We also went to that product, I want to point out, is an absorption product. So it actually, like in this room, you know, it's got ceiling tiles that absorbs noise and carpet and things like that.

Versus the product like at Pelican Bay, which is another pickleball facility that was just done in North Naples. They use what's called acoustic fence, and it looks very similar to what we actually have on the one would be the east side on the pickleball courts at our current place. But it's supposed to block the sound. But the noise at Pelican Bay was significantly louder and more acute than it was at the Highland Woods with a totally different product. And I think, you know, we've got the product over here that's essentially the same thing, think with a different stamp on it.

And it's not actually helping. And in fact, it's bouncing some of that noise off, contributing to some of our additional noise. We also went to an indoor facility. I'll talk briefly about that. But I think the key takeaway is that I don't see indoor working real well here on the island. And actually, the the cost of it, you know, would be real high, I think. And the noise inside was was loud. It was very loud. But the big thing I wanna share with the people who are on the committee today, that I took away from the pickleball noise trip, was this one thing. Because it directs directly to the Cadwell's home.

So if you've had the chance to go over to the pickleball facility or the racket center, and if you go off to the left side, east side, or the west side of the court, the noise is not as acute as if you actually go to the south end of the court. And the reason for that is, when the players are playing, and they take their paddle, and they hit the ball this way, and it goes at the net that direction. We play north and south here on the island. And what I learned, most of the courts are north and south because the sun sets east and west. And it actually has a problem with the way that you can play the game.

So most courts are lined up north and south, and that's not an issue. But because we have a north wind here oftentimes, plus we have that sound that's going directly. So when the paddle hits, it's sending that noise right at Dolores, which is where the Cadwell's home is. And when the noise or the wind blows from the north to the south, it then further takes that noise directly towards that group of homes. So Dale went through and explained all of this in much greater detail than I'm explaining it now.

The good news is we've got a member of our community, mister Annette, who has engaged mister Vanskoyek on his own dime. It's a contract that he signed, not that the city has signed. That work is gonna be turned over to us as a committee. And that work is being done in kind by mister Innett and his crew. Their goal is to, you know, ultimately bring back what what is possibly feasible, whether that's four additional courts or eight courts or 12 courts or no courts.

But I think once you you you watch the rest of this presentation, you'll see that I think there's a path forward here that can be tenable to the neighbors and can be acceptable to the pickleball players. So, at the place that we went to visit, you'll see, they have an L shape here and they had six courts. And the court in the bottom right corner, you can see is 126 feet from this two level condo complex. Which actually is closer than one tennis court in length. Which is actually, you know, right now the Cadwells and that community on the south side is two courts away plus another 50 feet.

Off to the opposite side, it goes 203 feet and then it's 343 feet. But what was very interesting is, you kinda see there's a tee box, I would say, just to the left of the arrow where it says 203, that's a golf course there. There's a little hill there. And we stood up there on that side, where, directionally the noise should be the loudest. And honestly, you had to see the ball going up and over the fence in order to actually really hear the noise.

It was quite quite a difference. You know, if you go over here to the Cadwell's residence, and I did that the following day after our meeting, and I sat there on Sunday morning. And you could hear the ball, I mean, clear as day. In fact, on that south end, the the noise was actually more acute on the south end than it was up on the north end by the by the check-in for the racket center. So, I believe that, you know, there there's a solution here.

The other thing is that they had their their fences at 10 feet tall. And certainly, think mister Vanskoyek is gonna come back to us with his recommendations. And on that south end, we may have to go to 12 or 14 feet, which would require a variance. I've spoken to a couple of the counselors myself. And certainly, you know, whatever process we need to go through with that, they wanna find a solution here that works for the neighbors and will work for the for the racket center. So I think there's a solution here that can be had. We're gonna have to work through, you know, obviously, those pieces. But I don't think that those are gonna be insurmountable. I also have a couple photos from the inside of this. And I think it's important to look at maybe the one on the my right side, where you can see a whole wall of it.

You can kinda see it stitched together like a diamond. So it looks more like a blanket. And that's because it's got that sound absorption material inside of it. Whereas, if you go over here to the stuff that we have, it's like a PVC kind of a blanket almost. And you can really tell the difference between the two products just standing next to them.

And this, obviously, they had it on three sides. They did have it originally on all four sides. On this lower side towards their parking lot. They've actually removed the sound absorption stuff on that bottom side because they didn't have enough noise. And actually, that noise goes to the the clubhouse and a pool area, and then beyond that, there's a golf course. So they weren't having noise complaints that direction. Since they've installed this stuff, they've not had actually any noise complaints in the community. And you would think certainly at a 126 feet away with two levels, there may be some. But they've actually eliminated that. The other thing I know that's come up in some of the conversations is, jeez, if we had 12 more courts, there's gonna be a lot of extra noise.

Mister Vanskoyeik, when he comes back with his noise study, I'm sure he'll explain this in greater detail. But because the paddle hitting that ball happens in such a short instance, and there are, you know, it happens relatively quickly, there is not a significant, you know, multiplication of noise as a result of adding additional courts. So, certainly, there's adding more people, which would add more, you know, laughter and those things. But you could definitely tell from having those courts wrapped with this absorption tool, it knocked that noise down also. But I think when he comes and explains the the different tools and processes that he uses to calculate this noise, he'll he'll go into greater detail on that.

I'm just gonna touch on this one real closely real quickly. Certainly, you wanted to go experience this yourself, I could connect you with the gentleman, Dale, and you could go to the Highland Woods because it is behind the gate. This location actually is in Naples, North Naples. They put this up, and I put this one on here for a couple reasons. One, you'll see that the building there has a wall next to it.

That wall actually was put up on one end that faces some condos. And I'm not sure why they decided to put a concrete wall there and then depend on this acoustic block on the other pieces. But I can tell you that at this facility, the product that's on there, it was significantly louder and it had that more of that popping, stinging noise than at the other facility that used the absorption product. And you could hear it much further away. Didn't get a good Google Earth didn't have a good shot over the top of it for me to grab one.

But I was probably a good 200 yards away where there were some condos, and you could still hear at a pretty decent level the noise coming out of this facility. And certainly, if I had invested in this, I would probably be a little disappointed in the result that I got. We also went to this facility because, you know, when I was speaking with mister Annette early on, I I did explain to him there may be a possibility that in order to do this, we're gonna have to go indoors. Because, you know, I think it's important we've gotta take into account everything for the neighbors here. So I wanted to prepare him for the fact that, you know, it may have to go indoors.

So we we had pre scheduled time, and he and I both had time on our schedule. So we we drove up to Fort Myers, actually north of the airport. And this facility just opened. They've got a lot of members, but man, every court was full and it was loud in there. They actually need to do some sound absorption stuff of their own on the indoors.

Because I don't know how you could stay in there for for very long and it was even Tim was commenting how loud it was. The challenges that we face at the Racket Center, right, are directional sound patterns. So that north to south because of the way the courts are and the way that the rackets and the noise are set up. The the noise in the parking and we need to have some immediate solutions and some long term solutions and then also improvements for staff operations. So I created what I think are a couple of quick wins that I would like to have us make as a recommendation as quickly as possible on 03/02 to get these in place.

First off, Casey has already been working with Joe at facilities to start the blowing of the leaves and cleaning of the courts as late as possible. And also, the turning on of lights as late as possible over there, to still be operational. But I still think it would be good if we could supply them with an electric leaf blower versus a gas one. Again, if nothing else, shows an olive branch that we're trying to solve this problem for that community. And again, for a very small amount of money, I think we can show that we're trying to good faith effort improve the situation for the neighbors there.

Additionally, I think we need to use some rent defense because we've got that stadium court to deal with. I know that city council on 32 is gonna vote to take this building down, which would require a little bit longer run offense. But, you know, I joke with people in my private work. The Saturday afternoon that we went and figured a few of these things out, I would have had this fence up Saturday night because this is easy to do. And if we could shut the all we have to do is rent the fence from where that downspout is, and bring it over to the the sidewalk there, and then put a gate in that would have a lock on it.

And that way, we could close it off so nobody can play after hours, nobody can play before hours. And again, we can help mitigate some of this noise and a little bit of annoyance for the neighbors. Also, the sound absorption panels, I think that it would be wise for us to do a test replacing the stuff that we currently have. And then further going down to the south end of the current pickleball courts and going all the way across to the current path on the west side, which would go past the stadium court. And that way, we could have at least two sides with that sound absorption on it.

I was given a quote back of the napkin, $13 a square foot on this stuff. And out of out of the blue this afternoon, somebody must have found the article that was in the coastal breeze, and they sent me a pickleball sound mitigation for $11.50. Now, don't know exactly if it's apples and oranges, but I think in this case, we're not looking for the cheapest product, we're looking for the best product. And certainly, think with Dale and his folks that mister Annette are working with, they're gonna come to us with the right product versus the cheapest product. But I know that in our government work here, we've gotta have a couple comparisons that they can look at different bids and things like that.

But there are some products out there. Again, I think we should replace the pickle block that's currently on there with this other tool, that sound absorption versus blocking. And the last thing is, I think, we need to update our member agreement. And I've had some conversation with Samantha on this because, you know, her team doesn't want to be the sheriff and have to enforce parking. And I would have thought and would have hoped that the pickleball players who would like more courts would listen to the feedback here and start parking on their own at City Hall and at Mackle Park.

So I'm gonna ask them again, at a public place, that they do that. Because again, today, there were plenty of cars in the swales. And this is a very simple step that they could do to help bridge the gap between the neighbors and what they want. And I don't understand why this is so difficult. But, I think we could, in our new membership agreement, require that if the parking lot's full, that you park at Mackle Park And walk, or you go to City Hall And Walk.

I did it, personally, from the furthest spot in City Hall, through an entire run of the lights pushing the button. I waited the entire red light. It took me three minutes and four seconds. So I don't think that's too much to ask if you're going to play pickleball for two hours. The other thing is, Mr. Vanskoyek also showed us some new technology with the quiet paddles. And I know that Mr. Annette bought a couple, or at least a quiet paddle to test them. And he was showing the different bounce and the spin and whatever. And I guess some of the professional players are also starting to use some of these tools.

Personally, I think the pickleball industry is gonna have to work towards this because they're gonna otherwise be out of business because neighborhoods are starting to have, you know, conversations about shutting pickleball down. And if they don't make a change, they're they're gonna have less courts to play on, and they're not gonna have places for players to play. So I think that, you know, I I do a lot of work in the bowling industry, and we've got people who today don't like string pins going into bowling centers. But the reality is, they sound different, they look different, but they score about the same. And I think the same is gonna be true here in the pickleball business.

They're gonna have to make a change, or they're gonna have problems. So again, I think those are kind of five or six recommendations. And I think the Quiet Paddle Initiative, you know, that's something we could look at over a three year term. It's like, hey, over the next thirty six months, as you're replacing your your paddles, there's a lot of new technology coming out. You gotta start playing with quiet paddles, plus we've got sound absorption, plus we have some other mitigation tools in place.

And I think we could get to a place where players can be happy, a little unhappy maybe, neighbors can be happy, maybe not totally stone silent. But I think we get closer to where we were at with tennis sound instead of pickleball sound. Then I think we get into the triage assessment phase. And this is kind of going on concurrently. Right? So mister Vanskoyek is about a week into his work. I believe he went on-site on Saturday. And he was there to look at the facility and begin his assessment and do some of his work. So that will be coming back to us in a future meeting. But I think ultimately then we're gonna have to have a definitive treatment plan.

Right? So we got a real permanent solution. And this is where I think we've got to look at this much differently. Right? So what's been proposed recently is to knock that building down, the Racket Center with mold in it, and the stadium court, try and put a few more parking stalls in there. But really, that doesn't flow that well. Plus, it also leaves a building out where it's not easy to operate the pickleball facility. And I think ultimately or the Racket Center. Ultimately, what should happen is maybe both those buildings need to go. And where the current Racket Center is, you have a much smaller building that has a couple of little offices in it or a couple of desks, a couple of bathrooms, some water.

And it operates like the mini golf place, essentially. Right? So you go in and you have everybody go through it. But what would be good is from an operational standpoint, like for instance, I've been over there a couple times and I've talked to a couple of people that work there. And I was there on Sunday. What's the gentleman's name? Reza? Reza? Reza. Reza, you know, the poor gentleman. He was doing the best he can, but he had people coming to look at playing, you know. There were guests coming to try and play after the the members were done. The phone was ringing, he had people showing up, and he had to be in three places at one time. Versus, if you have that facility over there where the current racquetball building is, you could have that all controlled in one place. Everybody's gotta walk through.

The phone could be there. He could be checking people in. And if you have two people, it'd be beautiful. But more important than that, you're gonna get more parking stalls if you knock both of these buildings over, plus you're gonna have a better pass through in the parking lot and a flow of traffic than you would. The other thing is, along the hedge up at that top from San Marco Road down to the courts, that entire thing could be bike racks or e bikes or whatever else people use because there's a pretty wide space there that would accommodate lots of that type of parking.

The other thing, as we were talking with Mr. Vanskoyek, was the potential to have an auronasium. So you will see it in the next one. Imagine if over that center three tennis courts, there is an arynesium there and underneath it, the new pickleball courts are there. One of the things that this potentially can do, and he's going to, of course, in his work, look at doing this, is these courts that are currently there, when people are playing and the noise is going to the south, this building would start to deaden some of that noise.

And then on top of that, there could be the potential for, of course, roll down doors or things like that on that South end that would further stop some of the noise from traveling that direction. So, as I was talking with him, wouldn't you know it, Saturday night I went home after I had spent all day with Tim and Dale. And Fort Myers, this is actually one of their aeronautics that just opened up last week or two weeks ago. And ultimately, this comes down to a couple things. Right?

So we need to have strategy. Certainly, the pickleball players are willing to, you know, step up and do some fundraising. The membership growth, certainly, we've had much discussion about that. Both that membership members and also adjusted rates. Some hotel, you know, partnerships, you know, there's been talk that the Marriott drops a lot of people off. I've had some discussions with some of the pickleball players, and when they're being real honest with you, they'll let you know that it's not a bigger problem as as some of the players would tell you it is. Do they bring people over on occasion? Yes. Do they bring over 50 people at a time? No.

But, you know, for the Marriott, could we go over to them or the Hilton and say, hey, for x amount of money, you can have x amount of spots and do that for some period of time. But would it give us some capital upfront that we could use to help supplement what the pickleball players can do and what we're gonna get with membership numbers and growth? And then ultimately, this would be a project that, after speaking to a couple of counselors, that also could probably be available for TDC dollars, which might take a little longer. But that's another avenue that we could go down. And I already talked about the parking one, so this is a parking slide.

And I think that's the last slide. Yes. So with that, I'm gonna come back there and I'm happy to discuss further.

Thank you. You've certainly given us a lot to think about.

If you just give me just one moment, I think this will help with this portion just so that way we don't get confused. So we're reopening up what you guys voted on the last time in regards to the recommendation to city council that will be presented on the March 2 city council meeting. So this is what you currently have, and then you guys can discuss any updates or adjustments to this. So the first part is raising the membership fee for pickleball players at the Racquet Club and creating an account that funds remain in a dedicated to the Racquet Club, but not generated fund. I apologize.

I'm coming down with something. The fee for pickleball membership will be the same for the tennis players, currently $3.60 with taxes per year. There will be a premium membership time option that includes the ability to make reservations for the 8AM to 08:30AM time slot. That membership will be an additional $100. Additionally, there will be research to work to implement an electronic locking system to the courts that will allow members access at the appropriate membership level and allow for the gate to unlock for all community members at the appropriate time for free play, which is currently 4PM to 6PM.

You'll also update the cap to 450 instead of the current 405 members. The current members will have the first opportunity to grab one of the 405 premium memberships for early morning access. If current members do not fill the 405 available slots, they will open to the community waiting list. After that, the waiting list and anyone in the community will be involved invited to join the slots that will be available to join at the $360 membership level. With the increase in fees, we also want all membership dollars to remain in a segregated racket club account to pay for the current budgeted items and begin working to have dollars to upgrade the facility and provide for future enhancements.

And then lastly, we're asking for the funds to be segregated from the general fund so that members can see their daughter dollars put back into the facility and not on other community needs. That's what you guys had last time.

Yes. That's correct. Yes. Now you are suggest did you have any comments on Darren's proposal? Did you have anything to add? Or how did you feel about it? Or what do you think how it would you want to us to add that to this meeting? I don't know if it's possible, or you can do that at the, at the February at the March 2 meeting.

If I'm understanding correctly, what Darren wanted to do was add a couple of additional line items to what you guys already approved. So Darren, do you want to say

So I think that, you know, it's our it would be our recommendation to add the electric leaf blower immediately. It would be our recommendation to add a rent a fence to block access early, before hours so they can't get in there or after hours. It would be a recommendation to move towards the sound absorption panels. And for those of you who weren't at the workshop the other day, actually, one of the counselors was willing to put up half of the money for the test in one way, shape or form, Probably tired of getting pickleball noise sound videos too. And then, the big one would be the updated member agreement, I think, for this one, which would be that, if the parking lot is full, you have to park at City Hall or Mackle Park.

And if not, you could lose your membership. Now I've talked to Sam. Her and her staff don't wanna be responsible for that. I need to have a conversation with Tracy and, doctor Lucius about what could be done here and what's possible, what's within the law. But I think it would be our recommendation that we should bring this to counsel, and, they may also have the capability to help move that along.

Because, again, it's been mentioned now for about eight weeks, inside of this forum. It's been mentioned to a number of pickleball players. And obviously, again, today and, other days in the last week, there's been cars in the swales. So they're not taking proactive action on their own. So I think we need to, do what we can to to to push that.

With that, I I believe Marco has these certain districts, so I think the council has to vote on whether they're gonna ban swell parking because they did that in the Beach District or whatever they call it.

So at the at the workshop, it it appeared that there was a lot of heads going up and down, and there was some willingness in order to move this along.

Okay.

But, again, that's another meeting.

Just one one, question on the leaf blowers. I think they're already using electric ones in the morning and then gas after seven. Am I correct, Sam? Would would that make sense?

Unfortunately, Facilities was not able to attend the meeting today, but that was one of the ones I wanted to mention. We have I don't know what they're currently using right now, but we have in the past tried to use the electrical ones. The challenge with that is they are not as strong to, you know, handle what we need them to. So because for our we have one over at Mackle Park that we use to blow the leaves, and it takes us a long time just to get the simple leaves to go. But again, maybe there's another higher quality one that we could look into. But I wouldn't want to say that we're definitely the

then we'll we'll the they they had confirmed with me

that to the the leaf blowing was happening, I believe, at 07:45AM according to that email instead of no earlier than that. Is that accurate? I I believe that was 07:45.

Oh, good.

And so I I was told that it was much earlier than that that that was happening prior to this. So, if they're doing it at 07:45 and they need the gas powered, fine. But, again, if you could get an electric and still do it, I think it's a good recommendation. And again, I think it shows the community we're trying to do the right thing here.

All right. Well, Beth, do you want to you have Yes. Said you

Thank you. So I was in a part of the fee structure that we're going to discuss for the Pickleball Center, but I have some definite opinionsthoughts on that one. First of all, I haven't met anybody at the Pickleball Center who isn't willing to pay the $300 and whatever it is, dollars $3.60, whatever. Nobody has had issue with that. The issue I have is with the practicality of adding the extra $100 to play early, and here's why. First of all, in the summer, we have we don't even fill, like, three courts usually.

Right.

So is it just going to be during season that this rule applies? Have you thought about it, or is it going to be a year round thing? And then if you are a year round resident, does it make a difference? Are you given any consideration? I'm not saying right or wrong. I'm just giving you thoughts to ponder. The next part is that I don't know what's going on at the Pickleball Center right now, but very few people are showing up at 08:00 in the morning. And it it used to be the other way around. So I don't know what's going on, but I'm thinking it's gonna be less appealing than we even think it would be. So I don't know if you could say for an extra $100, you get preferred parking if you're looking of making a dent financially.

But the extra $100, I don't see how you work that out, especially with only one attendant working.

Sam, what do you think about that?

So on this part, and Darren and I had already spoken about this, once we get some upgrades there and fencing, the extra $100 between the eight to 10:30, I think our staff will be able to handle. But before that happens, if we're doing it currently as now, we would not be able to do that to manage that because we have one person sometimes we have two people but when we have two people that means that we have one person inside you know doing any guest fees. It's during the guest fee time that we usually have two people and then the other person just making sure everybody checks in. We just don't have the staffing or the resources to be able to do that

until The extra we have $100. Is that what you're

The extra $100. Yeah. So Not at this time, we wouldn't be able to do it.

So that we are we are asking for something that can't be done anyway. Is that correct?

Yeah. When we At this facility becomes updated. Well And we have fencing and people have to go by the staff, then we could do it.

Okay. So that maybe we should just cancel the extra $100 when we bring that before the council? Is that what you're we can't do it anyway. Am I correct?

At this time, the way that the facility is.

Okay. So do we wanna just negate that for the moment and say we're raising our fee to $360? Is that are we be like, we're saying we wanna we want to raise it for a $100 from eight to 10:30. But if we raise it for the $100 from eight to 10:30, we can't do it anyway. Is that what you're telling me?

At this time. Correct.

Okay. Now when we say at this time, is that realistically, at this time, are we talking about thirty days, ninety days, or should we just put this aside? Because sometimes at this time, drags out. And are we being more realistic? Is Beth correct? Are we being more realistic? Let's stick with the three sixty and just skip that. You tell me.

Well, this is supposed to be a parks a prac recommendation.

Well, it's a recommendation.

But I am telling you yes. You are correct.

Being candid. And Yeah. Right. You know We could not do we yeah. Alright.

If they put if they put in the one access and are able to get that in, then maybe this goes with it. But if we don't

can bring that up at another time. But at but realistically, right now, gentlemen and Beth, we it can't we can't do it. We're asking for something that we can't we can't implement. Perhaps we

could word it in a way where, you know, when logically able to or or something like that, we could put some sort of words in it where when enforceable, then we could go forward with that.

I would just like to add, you're already doubling the pickleball players' fees, and they are some of the highest of within 100 miles of here. And so when you I think you should just table the $100 for now. And then when you see an area that is extra crowded and you want to try to find a way to sort of make the crowd smaller, then it would be a more prudent time to institute an extra fee. At this time, I feel like you're just trying to stun all the all the players, and they're also gonna be gaining some more pickleball players just virtue of adding people from the waiting list, and also a bunch of tennis players have said now they would also like to play pickleball.

Okay.

So I would just like to see, like, a little olive branch.

If I may, I voted against the resolution last time solely because there's no public speaker in favor of $100, And nobody who played wanted to pay it or thought it was necessary.

Well, you win.

Maybe not, but we'll see.

Good point.

I I think I would like to bring that up, that we negate the extra $100 from our proposal, that we say we're going to raise the rate. Tennis and pickleball will all be the same price, and it will be $360 a year. I think that's fair. Okay.

And then, again, it can be a re it can be readdressed later.

We can when when the time comes, let's say, we can readdress it, and maybe we'll have new things and other things, and it'll be a whole different it'll be a whole different thing.

That works.

I will say the only reason it was brought up, I think Darren was trying to bring fairness to the ones that already are members to make sure that

they Yeah. To make sure that the current people were

But if nobody cares and

Yeah. Let it know if

they They don't mind if they wait another

twenty minutes? That was a preferential.

It'll be

It was a it was a preferential for the current.

We were trying to do the right thing.

Yeah. Also, in the summer, they're they sell a different membership for people that aren't members. I don't know if you know about that.

Yes. I do.

And it starts at 10:30. So if you're trying to get some people off the waiting list, maybe you should try to squeeze some of them in starting at 10:30, give more of them some time to use the sender, and then maybe you'll find there aren't that many people on the list. Just an idea.

Yes. I think we're going to find out that the list is not 500 deep when we start making phone calls because there's some folks that have are no longer with us. And there's people who've moved on and there's people who've joined elsewhere. And I do think we're gonna find a number that's gonna probably be somewhere between a hundred and fifty and two hundred, but, we'll find out.

I think you're spot on with that.

I think didn't Sam, didn't you tell me there were 355 active Yes. Members? That's everything. So you're I

think Yeah. So there's three fifty five. So whatever number is on the current wait list, we've got room to take about a 100 of them off of it. Right. And once we start calling, you know, we get a 100 phone calls in, you're gonna find out that, okay, 60% of them joined or 40% of them joined, and, 35,

and

you're gonna have

Right.

Whatever the number is. And we're gonna have some stats that we can actually work towards with that. So, I think once we move this forward, we need to get somebody on the phone to start working through that list and fill up the 100 spots that are gonna be available and find out then where we're at with the truly with the list. I also do know from speaking with two of the gentlemen who work over at the facility that they do get between five and six phone calls a day that want to join. But currently, they cannot join because there's not a way to join.

And, so I do think there will be some additional people at some point when we can move towards that. But if for today, we want to move it forward at 03:60 because we can't control it, fine by me. But we were trying to have preferential treatment for people who are on so that they could still get in at eight in the morning and play with their friends who they've played with for ten years.

I do apologize for interrupting, but just because we only have about a half hour left, we do have a presentation about the Racket Center questionnaire. If we could try to be as brief as possible with that. And then I do have something, that I worked on with the city clerk to go over with you before we adjourn, in regards to a workshop with, the foundation. So, John, do you wanna or actually, do you guys wanna come have you guys had consensus consensus at all?

One more thing to help with the parking. One thing I wanted to bring up was I think we have that empty that lot that's where the where the light is on the corner right next to the pickleball. I think the city owns that. Correct?

Yes. We've already looked into that, and we cannot use that for parking.

You can't not even for bicycle or golf cart parking? I don't because I was just gonna say because Hideaway has it has golf cart parking separate from car parking. I thought if the city could do that on that lot, that would be for bikes and golf carts only. That would alleviate them taking up actual vehicle parking.

I believe that the previous Pratt committee did look into that so we can look into find out what the results were. But just for this meeting, if we can get a consensus on what you guys just discussed. And then, John, did you wanna do your presentation today?

I do, but I just wanted to just ask Darren just a couple quick questions if that's okay. First of all, thank you for that was an amazing presentation you put together, and thank you for all your effort you put into this. I just had a couple of questions. You had mentioned that on the Acousta block or the whatever sound mitigation you use, you mentioned just on the south side, we do need it on east, west and south.

Yes. It would go at least on three sides. The side that it wouldn't go on would be the side towards San Marco Road

Correct.

Okay. Which would be the entry point.

I just wanted to be sure And on

the the gentleman who's doing the sound stuff is gonna tell us, hey. You need it down the sides, and you might need it between the the tennis the current courts. Right? Every every court section. Because to get maximum results, it may require every section. Right. And it may require on that south end a different a different fence height. So we're gonna be at his direction.

That's

perfect. But yes.

You know, what we could do is we can put the sound on our next, PRAC meeting so that way we can discuss that further because the sound except for his port, Darren's portion about changing out what we currently have. That's not something that's gonna be on the next recommendation to city council. So we do have time to, thoroughly discuss this.

Okay. Good. Good. Just one I I just one last question, when he is gonna do that study, do you know when that's gonna take place? Because we wanna make sure it's during peak.

Yeah. So the goal the goal is that it's taking place now. He actually isn't gonna be, like, taking the sound of what's happening there now. He he puts it into his machine, his computer, with simulations of here's what it is, here's the distance, all that kind of stuff. Perfect. So it doesn't matter when he's doing it. He's got the the the ability to do it, yeah, That's that

great.

Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

Then may I suggest that we, as opposed to presenting this or asking the town, the council to consider that this month, that can we put this off? Can you suggest it for can we go back on the council or or before the council and talk about sound. And by then, Darren will have some, he will have results of what they had to say. We really have something to really give them and say, this is this works. Let's try this.

Let's do this. And by then, Casey Lusig Lusig should have some idea of what the town is willing or able to spend on this as opposed Yeah.

So at the workshop, you know, they've got they're gonna vote on the second to take the building down. They've got a quote of 100 Yeah. Well, that's to take some thousand dollars.

One take to take one building down.

There's, is it Dan, would do you know the numbers? Is there 500,000 currently in that account minus

$5.17 of them.

$5.17 minuteus 120,000 ish? So there's currently money to take that was from the original pickleball project or racket center project. Some of that money has been brought down. Think some of it was to take the aeronautium down, took it from 800 or whatever down to some number. It's like 515,000 or $520,000 is in that account.

100 and some of that $1,000 is gonna be used to knock over the racket center, and that's gonna be brought forward, I think, on three-two. Yeah. But Casey certainly was open to the idea to take some of those funds to fund some of the, call it, test of the sound mitigation. So if that number was, let's call it, 40,000 or 50,000, the conversation happened around she can approve up to $25,000 without having to go to the next step. But after that so we were trying to get an understanding of how much that might cost.

So if we wanna take the sound portion of this out of the recommendation on three two, but bring forward the noise the the leaf blowers, the fence, because that should be up. That I mean, it should be up already. And the parking situation, those three things added on to the price increase at $360 I think that would be a comfortable move. And then after that, we come back with the noise mitigation piece.

Okay. Do you realistically think those three things could pass with the console? I I

think it's buffered pay grade. Right?

So yeah. I

mean, I I wanna be realistic, and I want we wanna present something that they say, they are so special. They knew just what would pass. Am I correct? Well yeah.

If I may so we are kind of going a little bit outside of the box of what they asked us to do. They, if from my understanding, the recommendation was gonna be on memberships and fees.

So Here we go.

That's what we originally had the recommendations for. So you are adding a couple of things on there. I So I don't know.

I think we should take this and break it into two parts then. I think we do our fee recommendation as one piece, but we need the immediate sound mitigation steps as a second piece. We can make the two recommendations. So I would make a motion that we do the price increase at the $360,000,000 but we amend that to include the parking verbiage that we had. Council can decide if they want to tackle that piece of it or not, but I think we need for the public, to know that we are working on this in a very good faith effort. And, unless stopped by statute or whatever else, I think we move it forward with that. So I would make a recommendation.

At the risk of reopening the fees again, because we voted on this, like, three different times, and so why don't we break this up into different votes so it's done? Let's do a fee vote.

Right.

Let's do We're gonna

Let's do the additional separation vote. That way, one part's done. We don't have to bring it up again, and then we move on to these sound mitigation.

I do have a a question. Are you including the update cap to 450 instead of the 405?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that will go with the fees.

It would be exactly what you had to say. Leaving out the extra $100 Yep. For, play between 8 and $10.30.

And then what about the electrically blow blower, the rent defense immediately

move forward? Gonna be this is our first

separate.

That is

don't have to revoke on anything.

Let's let's do this and get this

So I'm happy to make the motion. $3.64 50, and we go forward. As it was.

As the money is clear.

There's a budget and a maintenance

Exactly what we said before.

We're just removing the $100. So

that's my motion.

Second. Second. Second.

Let's just, all in favor. Aye. Aye. Fred, aye.

Yes, aye.

Okay. Alright. We did it.

Okay. Now.

I'm happy to bring forward the second one, which would include the mitigation efforts.

Is it possible can we can we bring can we bring forth at the same time the the second

I don't think you guys have time to really discuss that at this meeting, so we'll have to put that on the next agenda, especially if we're gonna continue still

have twenty two minutes, and I think we have a duty to the neighbors to deal deal with this.

So then we won't have enough time to, do the next presentation?

Well, do we have to we've already just can we just bring the three points?

Yes. The motion I would make is that the electronic leaf blower, the rent defense, and the parking language, to park at City Hall or Mackle Park, with loss of membership privileges, if if not adhered to.

I can vote on I mean, I'm ready to vote on that if we're allowed.

It would need

us The

only thing I would say is that we have not presented that so that way we can get public comment on

those. Okay. So she snuck a needle in your eye.

Well, I I don't quite quite understand. We had the presentation on on the agenda. So people could have public comment. I I don't quite understand.

Do they have

to have public comment before we do this or at the end of this? But we still do our thing.

Does anybody have public comment? Okay. Do you want to comment?

Go ahead.

Come on.

Hi Carla Cadwell 90 Marco Villas Drive from San Marco Villas. First of all, want to thank you for, Darren, all the hard work you put into this, you and Tim. And as we all went and looked at, I do want to say the paneling that we went and looked at was fantastic. If we're gonna do something with the sound absorbing, that is something that I think, you know, the neighbors could get on board with. The problem that I do foresee is, again, we went up there and we viewed six courts.

You guys are trying to eventually implement 24 courts in a residential area that has never been implemented in before. We're looking at going from 36 players to 96 players. Is this something truly that you wanna spend this much money on in this small of a space if we actually have the this many members, this many people that are wanting to come in and play, do we not think we really need to look at moving this facility? This would take care of the parking. This would take care of the noise.

This would take care of the residents. This would take care of anyone that wants to come and join that currently couldn't play. I find it I find it kind of appalling that people are here on Marco Island and have stood at this podium and said that they can't even get in because it's not opened up for them. We're not against pickleball. We're not against any sports.

We talked at that last meeting about maybe flip flopping some stuff from one of the parks to comment down over here and placing that pickleball maybe at one of the other parks where it could be accommodated by the parking, or they would have restaurants and hotels and things to go to and shops afterwards. I really think this is a is a really good start. I'm all for. I think we're all for the sound proofing. That is our biggest, biggest deal on there now.

If this doesn't come for another three months, we're going to start getting into where everybody goes home. You just said yourself that in the season, it's highly played. In the summertime, you might feel three courts. Is this something we really want to throw this amount of money into? I can tell you the residents are gonna fight you on this. We do not want 24 courts. We do not want 96 people standing and playing and 96 people waiting. I think it's very unfair to the surrounding residents that are on all three sites. We are closer than I we are closer than anything we've seen. We have not been to any facilities where they've had 24 open courts that is less than we're less than 180 feet from it.

It's ridiculous. The sound is absolutely ridiculous. I think we owe it to the people to really look at I think this is a start, and it might work for the eight or nine courts. I don't have anything to compare it to for 24 courts. I think we really need to look at other land or other places that we could possibly put this if we wanna make it a pickleball complex, which is what it's gonna become. And that's really all I have to say.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

I think probably we all agree that we would like to put up something that, Darren, hopefully, it it's gonna work for the eight courts. Let's do that for you. We owe you. There's no question. And let's get that done. You know, we don't work quickly. So let's get that in, and let's get it finished and stop punishing all of you that are there. Once that's done, we'll go on to more courts and and all the other stuff.

Yeah. A 100%.

Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about, can we now is it possible for us to present the three issues that we were going that Darren suggested at the next council meeting, or are we asking for something that's imp that you can't do? What do you

We don't know for certain, but we think it's okay if you do two recommendations at the city council meeting. We do have to, clarify that, though. Okay.

You'll check on that and let us know. Okay. Then we're do we have to vote on the second recommendation

Yes.

To go

It needs

a second. It needs alright. Second. All those. Are there does anybody Beth, did you want Let

me just clarify what it is for voting.

Oh, is this coming

The leaf blower, the fence at the front with the lock, and the language on the parking, that folks can lose membership rights if they're not

I think we should lose the parking thing for now because the chief alluded to that there it's a lot bigger of a decision than we're qualified to make. I would just like to to the pickleball stuff and then deal with the parking issue another time. Just my opinion.

I think it's our responsibility to bring it to counsel and let lawyers and

Let them decide.

Okay. So we will stick with the three issues. So we're the three things you made you

I made the motion.

And second it. Do you wanna call the roll so that we can it can be that we've all voted?

Member

Hannegie? Member Baltus?

Yes. Vice chair Spindler?

Yes.

Member Lynch?

Yes.

Member Aegis?

Yes.

Member Kramer?

Yes.

Chair Segal?

Yes. So we've got that. We've alright. Now we've got fifteen minutes, and we're gonna talk really fast. Do you do we have time for our for our questionnaire, or do you do you wanna do your presentation first?

Just because this came from the city clerk, and we do need Okay.

So You're up.

Right. I wanna share an update from the 01/21/2026 meeting of the Marco Island Parks Foundation. During that meeting, the foundation discussed park priorities, including pickleball, a proposed Owl Park, and tree planting. They also asked broader questions about how priorities are being established and whether certain needs should be elevated. The foundation has asked PRACT to help provide perspective on overall park priorities, not just master plan items, but also other needs affecting our parks.

For example, we've had resident inquiries about funding for the playground, and there have been requests for improved sports fields and irrigation at Mackle And Winnebiery Park. And while there's some funding identified for trees, additional funding would be needed for irrigation and long term maintenance. The foundation would like PRAC to align on and recommend top priorities so that they can better understand where fundraising efforts should be focused. They initially discussed identifying three priorities. I added this part.

It may be helpful for PRAC to consider short, mid, and long term priorities, perhaps identifying a top three, top five, and top 10 overall items for broader planning purposes. They have also requested a joint workshop between PRAC and the foundation directors to have a more comprehensive discussion. So our next steps. I would ask PRAC members to begin thinking about park priorities comprehensively so we can work towards alignment as a committee. And then step two, we need to determine when PRAC would like to schedule a workshop with the foundation.

Keeping in mind that the advisory committee may have other may have either a workshop or a regular meeting in a month, but not both. Once the priorities are aligned, the foundation intends to engage a professional fundraiser to develop a strategy around the identified top priorities. So that's good news. Right? Yes.

I was I was at that foundation meeting. I believe I guess that you have a I don't know what you call it. The ten year or twenty year master plan?

Yes.

The think he from what I remember he them saying was they wanted us to help prioritize that plan to see if they can start clearing some of that stuff off the up the list.

Yep. But they said not just in the master park plan, but other things that the community feels that is a priority as well.

Okay. For those of you who are don't know what the Parks Foundation is, the Parks Foundation is a fundraising committee, and it we they can raise money for parks or if there are other issues in town. And they would like us to tell them where money could be spent, and that the town of Marco, as you know, doesn't have extra money. So everything that we want done, we're hoping that the Parks Foundation can raise the money and help and do what we want to do. There is some money there now, but they would like to hire a professional fundraiser to come in.

And they seem to think that there is money to be raised from the town to help do things. And I would like for each of us to go to Mackle Park or even those of you in the audience. If you want an eye opener, come to Mackle Park and look at the playground. And you tell me if you want your children to go onto the swings and everything that's there. It is it needs help.

And at this point, maybe the foundation could help or we should make a list. Do we want watering at the, at the Winterberry Park? There's so many things that need done that we can't, the town can't afford to do. They need something else somebody or something to step up and help out, and that's what we have to give them. So I would like you to kinda go to all the other parks and and listen to what everybody has to say.

And let's come up with suggestions as to what needs to be done so that we can bring that to the foundation or to the meeting that we're going to have. Am I correct?

Can we get can we get a list of that master plan that the the foundation, list of items? Plus you said there's a list of ongoing, community wants. Can we get that list or posted in the agenda so we can download it from online? Yes. Okay.

So, I've been pondering this a lot because when you take a walk around Mackle Park, there's plenty to be done there. You take a walk around the racket center as it lies, there's plenty to be done there. If you listen to the softball players, there's plenty to be done there. You take a little run underneath the bridge. I think it's that Jane Hitler. Yeah. There's some work to be done there, lights and things like that. And a number of years ago, I was introduced to a gentleman. His name was doctor Nito Cobain, he essentially became the president of a university in North Carolina called High Point.

Oh, I know High Point. Yeah.

Twenty years ago, it was a dilapidated rundown in need of capital. And Nido quickly turned that in from well, quickly, twenty years. Over twenty years from very tough shape to one of the best places in the country. It's the Disney World of universities at this point.

Yes. It is.

But as I was thinking about this and how it applies to parks, I went and bought one of his recent books about how he did it for how High Point. And I'm only about four chapters in, but I've got a a number of ideas that I think could be helpful here. But one of the things that he did was he went out to the community with the vision to, like, fix these things. Right? And then he talked to all the interested parties, so the sock or the, you know, the football players, the soccer players, the softball players, the owl lovers, etcetera.

But he went out with a vision, and he spoke about it every day for thirty days. And their goal in a sixty day period was to raise $10,000,000. Well, they raised $20,000,000, and they did it in thirty days. And now he's billions of dollars in, and they've got beautiful facilities. And I think we need that sort of thinking and vision for what we're gonna do here with Parks and the Parks Foundation rather than to sit back. Because I know that if we go to park to facilities with Joe, he's got a long list, and Sam's got a long list. And each of us go walking, we're gonna have a long list. And if we have some listening sessions with the community and we go talk to the players, we're gonna get a long list. But then I think we gotta get our selling shoes on. But I think there 's a lot of people in our community.

If you went out and you asked for, for instance, a $10,000 gift on an annual basis out of their retirement accounts or whatever they have, there's hundreds of these people in Marco Island that if you prove to them that you can be a good steward of the money, that these people want this place to be a great place for their kids and their grandkids. And I know that there's a lot of talk that there's not a lot of kids in Marco Island. But I can assure you, there are a lot of kids or grandkids and great grandkids that come to this island, and their grandparents wanna show off the parks. And right now, that's not something that we have. So I'm happy to help lead the the charge on this because I feel that we've got a lot to do here. And, I'm happy to help in any way we can because I think we can move move the ball.

Well, I think that, the fundraiser that they are thinking of hiring, you could be her right arm. That would be

Well, I'm I think I'm happy to help out, and I'm happy that anybody else can help out too because it's gonna take a lot of work. But I I think we've got the opportunity in front of us if if we have the right vision to to do this. You know, Veterans Community Park is is a great start, but we've got things that are in need there too. Right? We need more shade, and we you know, there's talk about us having some funds for that, but, that's not come to fruition yet either, and we've got a lot to do.

So the question is, how soon do we want to see if we can schedule the joint workshop with the foundation and PRAC? Do we wanna try this for next month? Do we wanna try for April?

Well, keeping in mind that we can either have the meeting or a workshop, not both. So

I have a suggestion. The meeting falls on Saint Patty's Day. I'm probably not gonna be here. So Oh. I would I would like to make a motion maybe just not do the proc meeting so we can do the workshop on a

different day if that's allowed. Now are we talking about a workshop just of our committee? Is that what you're talking about?

A workshop with the foundation.

With the foundation. Alright. Well, that they have to we could we could request a meeting with the foundation.

They've already requested a meeting with us.

Alright. But will they go as as soon as March? Because I think the sooner we do it, the better.

A 100%.

We can ask.

Okay. And I just have one concern with with with which is great that, you know, we wanna focus on fundraising. My concern is they fundraise all this money. Where is the maintenance? Like, where is the staining and the painting to keep it from falling apart and getting to this point where it has to be replaced? You know, I'm just concerned. I don't want I don't want this money to go to waste. I want I want if we put in millions of dollars, this thing should last more than five years. You know, it just need it needs just like you paint your house every six, you have a depreciation list knowing you have to repaint, you have to reroof, you have to you know, whatever you do with these other products.

I think as you get into a workshop environment, there's gonna be a lot of discussion, and it wouldn't be surprising that, you know, there needs to be somebody, from the Parks Foundation that's a regular employee that's a part of that that oversees to make sure that that happens. But I think if you go out to the community, we gotta prove that we can be good stewards of this money. Mhmm. And, there's a lot of work in front of us because, as Dolores said, the swing sets are not in great condition, and there are are many of other needs. And I think, done right, we can we can do great things here.

So what we're gonna do is, we are going to look to cancel the February I mean, the March Yeah. Crack meeting and in place Oh. See if we can schedule a workshop with the foundation.

Yeah. Okay. And their meetings are usually if they wanna do it where their mindset is, their meetings are the third Wednesday of the month at 01:30.

Following the meeting.

Right? But it doesn't have to go

towards have to be. Correct. But, and then they don't they have about one a month a year. So let's

We're gonna put them on a more regular cadence.

Yes. Yes. Do we have to put that up? Do we have to go to the park again and do it, or are we doing it here?

I will look into all that and make sure that I communicate with you.

Yeah. I think it's here. We have three minutes. We did it.

Can can I can't

No. Go

ahead. One more time. I feel so badly that we have your your your recommendation and your question there.

Get As long as on the next agenda. Alright.

Does anyone does anyone have any Samantha, first thing for next time. I promise.

No. That's okay. Any comments on it at this point or no?

I'm in favor. No. I'm no.

I the only question I have is where would that be used?

That would be used, I guess, for we would crunch that data to figure out what our forecast is. What are what are what are we building for?

Yes.

I think you kind of brought that up with the

phone Yes. Calls, Because at this point, we've made a

Yes. Would support what you were saying.

We've a commitment on going with the price that we just talked about.

Right. Right.

And it might be water under the bridge, not that that's, you know, at this point. Could I do one quick update before we go in two minutes? So, update on the Powell Owl Park. I did have a chance on Friday to meet with, councilor Henry, Linda Scherzinger from the Beautification, Brittany from the Owls, and she connected me already with Ellen, who is in charge, who did the drawings of that original print.

Right.

She's going to revamp it with conversations we had, including using some, native plantings in order to bring down costs on certain things. Beautification is open to bringing the Tree City USA money in. And there's the rotary is interested in putting somebody in. And, the cost to do this seems like it'll be significantly less than what we talked about originally at 500,000, because there's not a need for a, outlook. And the use of benches instead of that with some like binoculars. So we're going to have the capability and hopefully in maybe a meeting or two, I can bring that back. And we've made some forward progress on that.

Great. Thank you. And it's now $4.45, and I move for a German. Do I hear a second? Second. We won't see you, at March 17. But please, won't you come to our workshop? We'd love to see you again, and thanks for coming today.