Board of Mayor and Aldermen - Regular Meeting

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. We're live?

No. Okay, it's 5.30. We're gonna go ahead and get started with our work session tonight. We're gonna call it to order. Number two is approval of the agenda. We'll take a motion and a second. We'll do it all verbal. Motion by Alderman French. Second by Alderman Parsley. All those in favor, just say aye.

Aye.

The next item is discussion of the FY26-27 budget. Along with that discussion, we also have Scott Gibson here tonight to talk about the bond that we've been discussing as part of the budget for next year's payment out of water and sewer. We'll open the floor up if you would. Please speak into your microphone tonight. That's the only complaint we seem to have is that some of us can't be heard on the TV at home. Nobody has anything about the budget you want to discuss? Do you want to have any discussion about the bond for water? Is he going to? Do you want him to give a presentation? I mean, he'll give you a handout. We can go through it. You want to do that? The man from Cumberland. Yeah, absolutely. Scott, come on up.

Hello, everyone. My name is Scott Gibson. I'm with Cumberland Securities. I'm the city's financial advisor or municipal advisor. We have helped the city for several decades. last couple decades to issue debt, refinance debt when you need to do so. I did hand out a preliminary funding analysis outlining kind of an initial plan of what the bond issue would look like. You have two resolutions on your agenda tonight, the initial resolution, which is required under state law, and then the detailed bond resolution, which is the bigger resolution in your packet that outlines the issuance of the debt. We are contemplating issuing the debt in two phases. $10 million this current year, the 26-27 budget year, but from federal tax law purposes, there's some advantages of staying at $10 million or less, and that runs from today, the calendar year, so January 1 through December 31. So after December, starting January 1 of 27, we can issue more debt. Now, I don't think you'll need the second phase that we're gonna go over until probably at the end of 2027 at the earliest, but we'll see how fast y'all spend the proceeds. I did hand out the preliminary master funding analysis, if you wanna flip through that, that was in front of your in your seats. On page one of that analysis was the current water and sewer debt that you are paying on. It is current payment this budget year is about $1,468,000. On the debt, excuse me, $1,453,026, about $1,004,000 this upcoming budget year. And then there's a graph of that on page two. And then pages three and four of that analysis outline $10 million to be issued this year, which we're gonna move, if you adopt the resolutions tonight, we'll move forward as fast as we can. We'll start the process of getting a rating in place and sell bonds hopefully sometime, I would think probably in early July and then will have funds in your account probably mid-August or so. Page three is the proposed 2026 bonds. As you can see, it's 10 million bucks. I have used an interest rate of four and a quarter percent for the 30-year financing. It shows the current existing debt in the column from the second from the right. And then the final column shows the total debt service of not only the new debt, which is about $620,000 a year, but the additional outstanding debt. So the far right column shows you kind of what your total principal and interest will be. on all the debtors currently paying on plus the new debt and so it's about a million eight for the next couple years and then drops to about a million four and keeps dropping down till we get about 620 and then the page four shows the same exact thing four and a quarter percent for 10 million and 27 i've assumed a june of 27 issuance but that's probably a little aggressive but it does require you to kind of budget a full year of interest. So if it's after June, we won't have as much interest in the first payment. In 2028 budget year, And you see the total P&I on the far right. And the easiest thing to do is just turn to the back page and look at the graph. Everyone likes to look at pictures and they're easy to read. And so that graph that you see shows the current debt. The red would be the 2026 bonds. The yellow would be the 2027. And then I drew that graph. green line on the page right at under a million eight, that's where your debt payments were in 2022. So a couple years ago, your debt payments in the Water Zoo were actually larger than they are, or higher than they are today. Your debt's been coming down, and so I wanted to give you kind of a reference back just a couple years ago, four years ago, to show you where the debt payments were and how this new debt stack stacks up. So we're in the scheme of things, really close to what your payments, even if we add this 20 million, your payments are not much more to start with than you were just a few years ago. And so just to give you some reference to kind of where it was and where we're going to end up and what it's going to look like. And then, you know, your water sewer system looks pretty good. Also, this bond issue is slightly different than what we've done in the past. Historically, we've just gone out and done general obligation bonds and had them additionally payable from, but not necessarily secured by water and sewer revenues. This resolution does water, sewer revenue, and tax bonds. So the first pledge to the repayment of the debt is the water and sewer revenues. And we're doing that for a couple reasons. One, historically, the water sewer systems issued kind of a $3 million here, or $5 million, then a few years later, another couple million, and it just made sense to do general obligation debt, but since you're gonna authorize $20 million of kind of standalone water sewer debt over the next couple years, we thought it made sense to make the water sewer revenue pledge so that when we go to the rating agencies, they can see that this $20 million is all for water sewer, and so it kind of stands on its own, and then we did do the and tax pledge on it too so that the city can put its high rating on the debt to get the lowest interest rates, but it helps differentiate with the rating agencies. Okay, this is truly water sewer debt. We're pledging the water sewer revenues first, and then if there's ever a shortfall, which state law doesn't allow for a shortfall, so it kind of doesn't really matter, but you get the benefits of both worlds. You kind of get the We help the city not show as much debt on its books as payable from the general obligation pledge because the water sewer revenues pledged first and then we get the lowest interest rates because we kind of backdoor use the, with the tax pledge, we get the general obligation rating even though we're pledging water sewer revenues as the first source. So it's really in the long run a better benefit and it also helps the city at some point if you do more debt for the city or the schools or something, then it's easier to differentiate in the future, oh yeah, that 20 million is water sewer, you can see the pledge and it kind of stands on its own. And so that's a, Kind of a new wrinkle. Doesn't cost the city anything to do that and go this route, but it does help you out in the long run. And like I said, if you approve the resolutions tonight, we'll be sending a package to the rating agency, S&P, where you currently have a AA rating. Here's the preliminary official statement. We've already got it drafted up. So if you adopt it tonight, we'll get this started here just before the end of the week and kind of keep moving forward. It'll take them... three plus weeks to get the ratings, so that'll put us at the end of June, and then about a week, 10 days after that, we'll be selling bonds. Like I said, we'll have to work around the July 4th holiday probably, but we'll be selling bonds sometime probably shortly thereafter. So that's kind of an overview of what's going on tonight, what's on your agenda, and I'm happy to answer any questions about the resolutions or the process or any questions y'all may have.

Is the rate guaranteed 4.25?

That's the budget rate for the analysis. We will lock the rate in when we sell the bonds. So it's going to be traditional fixed rate bonds. And so we will bid this out at competitive public sale, which basically means we send it out to Every underwriter in the United States, underwriters are the people who buy these bonds, will probably get five or six bids or maybe more from that group and we will award the bonds to the bidder who bids the lowest interest rate. And so it's just like buying pipe for the water sewer system where you go get three or four bids. whoever's the lowest on a piece of pie. We're doing the same thing on the bond issue, setting the parameters and letting them bid. And the lowest cost of funds to the city is the winning bidder, and they get awarded the bonds. And so we'll see where the interest rate is. I did budget four and a quarter. I think we'll probably be right in that ballpark. But we will lock it in. Once we sell it, that rate will be fixed for the entire 30 years. And then you can't prepay it until about 2033, 2034. So about seven, eight years, you're kind of locked in. But after that time period, you can prepay it at any time. You can refinance it and lower the rates or do something else if we want to.

So what's the high side of the parameter? You said we had parameters on it.

As far as what the interest rate will be? Yeah. The resolution allows up to the maximum rate allowed under state law, but like I said, I'm selling bonds tomorrow for electric system. I've seen in some preliminary numbers, and we're gonna be right at four, 30 or 40 for them, and they're lower rated than the city of Manchester, and it's not backed by the full faith and credit like this one is that I talked about, so I really think we would, based on where we are today, now, if the war in Iran starts up again, or something happens in the next four or five weeks, we'll see where we are, but these rates have kind of bounced around, and this fairly brought between 415, 430, 435 for this type debt for the last couple months.

In the long-term history, those interest rates are very high.

It depends on how long you want to go back, but I mean, rates today are higher than they were in 2020 and 21 when we were at historic lows. I remember 2001 and 2.

They were less than 2%. I mean, I know that's what the market is, but they're extraordinarily high.

Their fixed rates are higher than they've been in a while. Of course, inflation has been running the last couple years, if everyone here knows, higher than it has, too. Obviously, a few years ago, inflation hit, what, 8%, 9% for a year there or so. And then we're still running closer to 3% versus 2%, which is where the Fed would like to be is 2%, but we're running closer to 3%. And so these rates are kind of sticking in this area. I mean, I've been doing this for 30 years, a little over 30 years when I first started. Something like this would be north of five, more like five and a half, and that would have been in the late 1990s, and like you said, 2000, 2001 rates were actually higher, but when we hit 2002, three, rates went down, and they went down until we got to 2020. In 2020, because of the pandemic, we hit the lowest interest rates pretty much of all time. And 21 also, end of 20, beginning of all of 21 until we got to 22 and they started coming back up. They stayed pretty low. Then we had the inflation here the last couple years and they, they've been in this range. But I do agree they're higher than what you have historically seen. We did lock in the city at really low rates in here and sub 2% and what you're paying on the schools and everything else here. The water sewer system debt has really low rates. We got all that locked in. I mean... Rates are where they are today. They're gonna be close to four and a quarter, but you will have the opportunity to refinance them, like I said, around 2033, and so in the scheme of things, that's not that long, so there's a good chunk that will be remaining that we can, if rates are lower, we can definitely refinance them and lock them in. The other thing we did, too, I mean, if we go shorter on the amortization, you can get a little bit lower rate, but then that makes your annual payments higher, and I'm concerned about doing that. I think we ought to stick with 30 years, because you have a lot of growth going on. You have some water sewer plants that need some major work, I think, and expansions at some point as you continue to grow, and so I want to make sure that we leave room, as much room as possible, to fund that stuff that's coming, that's out there, especially if something happens at the mega site, and we'll see how much you know, growth from that, and just the growth here in general. So trying to balance getting you money for very long-term assets. We are doing a 30-year ammo. You can prepay it once we get to 2033, so if that growth hasn't materialized, we can start prepaying that debt. But my concern is the growth will be there, and we're gonna probably have to have even harder conversations in the future about how to fund future stuff versus the conversation we're having today. you ever seen us prepay anything well not really but but that being said um while you might not have prepaid debt there were you have especially since the pandemic been funneling cash into capital projects and equipment and stuff that in historically you may have barred for and you've been paying cash and you've gotten on a good track with that so some of the HVACs and the equipment and fire trucks and stuff, you've just been paying cash, and so I think while you're not repaying debt, you aren't issuing additional debt to fund that stuff, so it's the same side of the coin, it just looks a little different.

It's compounded semi-annually, right? That is correct. Is that normal? Do we do the rest of them semi-annually?

This structure is standard in the industry for municipal bonds.

Mr. Gibson, I've got a question. Yes, sir. On the resolution tonight, we vote this and we pass this. Exactly what date will you know exactly what the interest rate will be?

The day we sell the bonds. So that will probably be right after the July 4th holiday, based on how things normally work. We'll have the rate locked in. For the first $10 million. and then we'll see how long it takes you to spend that money, and you will have authorized the second 10, but we won't issue it until you need the money. So that might be June of 27, it might be December of 27, but I would say it's at least a year, and if not, more like 18 months, or even potentially longer. If you're making good progress and got projects lined up, I probably will suggest that you do something before December 31st of 27 so I can get that $10 million in that tax year, and that would leave the 2028 calendar year completely open to do more debt for the city, whether it's schools or city or whatever, you'd have that option. So we'll probably end up doing the second piece sometime late in 2027 for a couple different reasons.

That's just a number.

the maximum rate we're gonna, like I said, we're probably gonna be, your cost of funds is gonna be right around four and a quarter, based on where we are today. Any more questions?

Okay.

Did I answer all your questions? Okay. Thank you, sir. Yes, sir. Yes. You have to authorize the bonds so that you can actually sell the bonds. You can't sell the bonds without authorization. So the resolution allows for us to, you're authorizing the bonds, we're gonna start the process to put a sale together, and then once that package is ready in about a month, we'll be selling the bonds, so.

You know, Mr. Gibson, you've been, you've been with us for quite a while. And I think you've always been straight, straight with us. So, when you tell me we're looking around four and a quarter, you know.

But, barn, something made, I mean, the war starting up again or something like that. And if something like that happens, I will definitely let you know, call the mayor and say, look, I think we need to wait a couple weeks before we sell the bonds and see how this shakes out or whatever. But assuming everything kind of stays on track like we've been, then that's where we are right now. The resolution authorizes the mayor to make the final decision once it's adopted, so I would not recommend doing that because the second piece, when we sell it, this is tied to it too, but like I said, I do a bond issue a week in the state of Tennessee on average, and so this is the standard way to do it. And I am not gonna go out and sell bonds at 6% if I told you four and a quarter without picking up the phone and calling the mayor at Anthony and saying, let's wait, let's hold off, let's do something else, because I do not want to lock 6% in. So, I mean, I've been doing this a long time. Like you said, I'm not gonna do something that is gonna surprise you and not come through.

So, in a roundabout way, the answer to both you guys question is, is yes, we still have final say. GREG BRUDNICKI Yes.

GREG BRUDNICKI Okay.

There will not be any more provisions. That'll be a business decision that we make with our financial team. GREG BRUDNICKI Yes. BILLY RADER Okay. And we, we, we hear the board, we hear the public, and I mean, there's no advantage to us to up our payment and get a bigger rate than what we're showing today. So, if we have to wait based on stuff that happens, we will do that. Okay.

GREG BRUDNICKI And in the end, it all comes down to trust. And Scott's proven over the years that we can trust him.

My third decade. I'm in my third.

I take what you say at face value and trust what you say.

Appreciate it. Thank you, Scott. Yes, sir.

OK. Alderman Threat, you said you had a question for Director Burroughs. And if you would, I'm going to ask you to let everybody at home hear you, OK?

What is the budget of the Water and Sewer Department?

MARK MCQUEEN, M.D. : Again, proposed 2027. DAVID BURRAGE, M.D. : Yes. MARK MCQUEEN, M.D. : . DAVID BURRAGE, M.D.

: . MARK MCQUEEN, M.D. : .

So expenditures are set at $9.6 million proposed in 2027. That's down from the $10.5 million in 2026. Revenue.

Is this the first time, and maybe Mr. Gibson said this, is this the first time we've obligated their revenue stream to pay bonds?

Banks are...

The answer to your question is yes and no. So yes, it's the first time we have officially obligated in a bond document the payment of the water and sewer revenues to a bond issue. However, in the past where we've just done a general obligation pledge, state law still has not changed. State law mandates that a water sewer system be self-sustaining and not subsidized by city tax revenue. And so you've always had to have enough water sewer revenue to pay the debt regardless of how the debt was pledged in the bond documents. So the answer is while we might not have officially pledged through a bond document, you are obligated under state law to make sure the revenue is enough to make those debt payments regardless of how that, if it's a water sewer debt, how it's actually issued. So it's a kind of a yes and no answer. Does that make sense? Okay.

And I want to make a further comment. And the reason that part of the expenditures are down for this coming year is we were using a lot of ARP money and different things that we had matches that have been in the work for the last couple years that we are done with the ARP type of monies. So that's why part of the expenditure part is down.

GREG BRUDNICKI Another question. What is the reserve amount of the water and sewer or fund or do they have a fund balance or reserve?

GREG BRUDNICKI They do. They have a cash reserve right now of approximately $8.7 million. GREG BRUDNICKI How much? GREG BRUDNICKI $8.7 million. GREG BRUDNICKI All right. GREG BRUDNICKI And then in 2027, they are budgeted to make just shy of about $2.4 million in operating income.

a lot of that is due to us not spending their cash on projects. That's how their reserve is going to gain some money over the next year. Any other? Questions or discussions? Uh, Dr. Vaughn and school boards here. Uh, in case you have any questions for their budget, it's attached as well. Um, other, all the departments are here. If there's anything with inside the budget that you guys want to talk about now is the time. Um, I think that it's definitely something that needs to be mentioned that our budget is balanced. Uh, we will not be asking for any tax increase. from the citizens of Manchester. Our tax rate in Manchester is 1.5221. You also have to pay a coffee county tax of 2.0558. And to give you a reference between the other municipality that is in the county, Tallahoma's tax rate is 2.1532. So, Manchester is quite a bit lower in the taxing of property than, uh, than, than, than everybody around us.

Yes?

The city part of, of the county is 2.0558. That's, that is the county part Manchester residents pay to the county. the city rate for Tallahoma is 2.1532. And on there again, we're at 1.522, and I think the last time taxes in the city have been raised is probably well over 15 years ago.

And it could be said, with the reappraisal, everybody's all concerned, and I understand. The taxes in the city are not gonna go up.

Taxes in the city will not go up when you reappraise property. They have to find the Mendoza line to where the same income based on values is given back. And, you know, we have roughly in this budget a little, right around I think 17 million dollars left in our general fund. Uh, and, and I think our total expenditures for the year are around 20 million dollars. 21. Sorry. Missed it by one. But, I'm sorry? Is it? It's a surplus.

Yeah.

Yeah. But we have some unassigned fund balances that we can't spend and that's how we get to the total number of cash. But, yes. Um. Any more discussion about the budget? Does anybody want talking more about it?

I've got a question for Mr. Foley. Sure. What do we hope to accomplish with this 20, assuming we spend the 20 million, where will we be after we have spent that?

So, let me help. That's a big, I think. Let me help Lonnie out a little, okay? We're, we're, The way that that is broke down and I didn't bring the, the letter that I presented to Budget and Finance. Um, and I'm going to try to remember. Is, is that the letter? Um. So. So, just, uh, we did state this at the last meeting that we spent 14 million dollars in infrastructure last year. Um, and the 20 million dollars, the, the first, the way it's broke down is by percentages. Um, because a lot of these things are, so we're going to spend, um, 70 percent in infrastructure and water and sewer. I believe it's 15% in water supply and then another 15% at the plant level. Those are the three categories that we, we spend in water and sewer. Um, for we, we did turn in a plan that uh, you know, to TDEC as part of our order. Just, excuse me, to spend about 12 million dollars over the next 18 months. Um, and it's all to take care of things such as I&I, which is infrastructure, I mean, infiltration into the system from water and sewer. Um, that'll be new lines going in just like we did last year. Uh, the remainder is some cleaning. Um, we've got some work at the plant to do that, uh, we've got to pump some ditches that's never been pumped. Um, but, but we intend to, you know, before we spend a dollar, We'll be bringing it back to the board for you guys to sign off on every dollar that we spend. It'll go through water and sewer first as a project and then it'll come here as a resolution. But, but those are the percentages and the categories we intend to spend money on. Now, to answer the rest of your question, which is what I know you're probably getting at. Um, there's another $40 million needed. I mean, if I'm being honest, to, to continue to work on the system. This is just to keep the momentum of the past 18 months going. Um, we're down to one chronic manhole now. Um, down from five. So, you know, a lot of the work and things that they're doing is good. There'll be a new water tower proposed for 41 to help water pressure out on that end of town. uh, I can't really think of anything else off the top of my mind that it's already we're discussing to present.

Does that kind of help? GREG BRUDNICKI So 20 million and then and I understand it's a a long term project. So, 60 million total?

Well, I mean that's just a guess, right? Because as we do these projects over the next five years, the things that are working today are going to break. So, it's a continual battle year over year. Um, you know, we, we also have probably 12 million dollars worth of grants in the work. We're extremely close to the new EDA grant that we offered last year. They've asked us to put some stuff in the paper and different things. I mean, that's a five million dollar grant. So, we're just talking about showing people that the City of Manchester is going to put their own money in versus waiting on somebody to come in and fix it for us. We will continue to get the grant money and do those things all we can.

So this is, I guess to sum up, it's a start, not a...

Yes, sir. I don't know if there's ever an end. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I mean, it's just, you know, uh, as Mr. Gibson alluded to, right? I mean, over the past so many years, we throw a couple million dollars at it here and a couple million dollars there and, and we've never truly taken this type of stance and said, hey, we're going to really focus on getting ourself under control here. Uh, the ARP funds did a huge thing for a lot of counties and cities, which was it give us their money to, to get these projects going. Um, I just don't want us to lose the momentum especially have as the debt is being paid off and it's not a whole lot more to go ahead and keep working. I mean, you know, his green line shows you that we've been paying 1.8 at the highest point. Um, and as you get on down into the thing, I mean, we're back down into the 1.2, 1.4 that we're currently doing today. So, so I mean, you know, uh, it's a way, you know, we, we did pass a uh, increase on to our customers, which will help fund us to not have to do that in the near future. That, that's part of what we're trying to do here.

million as a start that takes care of a lot of critical items now and gets us to a relative degree of stability, is the way I stated it. I'm looking at you and Director Foley. Is that an accurate comment to your question?

GREG BRUDNICKI Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, we, we've, you, so let's understand the history, right? I mean, we went under a state moratorium in 2012-2014, right? We were under a moratorium for eight, ten years. We finally got enough work and stuff going where we went under a self-imposed moratorium and over the last two years we've got ourselves back under a state-imposed moratorium and we've had an EPA audit. So, I mean obviously we have to keep working at those things to meet obligations to the state and to the different uh people who who we answer to and if we do nothing We know what that looks like, right? So let's do our jobs and get out in front of it and honestly say, hey, Manchester, we're going to fix these problems so that everybody understands that it's not just kicking it to the next group of people to have to do, right? I mean, it's aggressive, but we have to be aggressive because we have, you know, in 20, four, I think the number was 105 overflows, okay? In 25, we went the wrong direction and went to 110 or 112 overflows. So, I mean, we got to change that, right? This year, knock on wood, we've had a little bit of a drought, we've had a little reprieve, and we're well below those type of numbers, but they are accomplishing things and doing stuff now that should have been already done. And, and so that's, that's the need for the money. But the ultimate question you asked is, is it going to be the, the magic number? The answer's no. We're going to be battling this for, for years to come. And we're no different than anybody else. You know, uh, Telehoma put out a thing about rain is just like we do. You know, they have overflows. Um, but, but the I&I is the biggest problem Manchester faces today. uh, as we continue to replace, um, broken pipes and actually planning out farther. We've done some work in the last few years that we're probably fixing to dig up and redo because we didn't plan for the growth and things. So we have to put a bigger pipe in now and, and while we're looking out 10 years.

GREG BRUDNICKI Is this work gonna be done by outside contractors? By the city?

It's a combination. I would say, and Lonnie you can correct me if I'm wrong, 80% will be outside, 20% will be internal. Yes, sir. They're big projects. I mean, last year I think it was 46 or 4700 feet of pipe was put in that was 18 to 24 inch pipe and we're not capable of putting in that size.

Understood.

Any more questions? Audience, anybody got anything?

Man, I just want to re-emphasize his comments, because I do a lot of work across the state in solving your I&I problems. I'm not an engineer. I'm not on the enforcement side, but I finance enough stuff to solve those problems. And I cannot emphasize enough that staying ahead of that game versus getting behind is very important. Because if you get behind too far and the EPA shows up and decides to do some steps, next thing you know, you think $20 million is a high number, you're going to be spending $40, $50, $60, $70, and you can't get out of it. So I use this example a lot. This happened. 15 years ago, the city of Knoxville, Knoxville Utility Board did a water sewer business. They had sanitary sewer overflows. I made the front page of the paper. The mayor said, I'm going to sue my utilities that I own. And next thing you know, the EPA showed up with the Department of Justice at the federal level and said, you're going to sign this consent decree or you can go to jail. It's your choice. Whatever you want to do. and 600 plus million dollars later, we finally have solved our I&I problems. But it was very expensive. Spent over 100 million dollars on wastewater storage tanks in the first few years just to manage the I&I problems. Those tanks get used once or twice a year now, but they had to be built to comply with the consent decree. I just want to emphasize and give you that story. KUV has moved on. KUV is out to learn the consent decree. One of the few that have done it in the United States. They have worked on solving their problems, but it was an expensive problem to solve, and it wasn't necessarily their fault. I mean, they were aggressively replacing Mike before the consent decree. After the consent decree, they multiplied that number by four, and so, because they had to be the

What year was that?

It's been 15 years at least. But they're a bigger city. And so you've got all of them.

I remember you talked about it. Yeah.

So the EPA started with like Birmingham and Atlanta. And then they kind of dropped down a level and hit Knoxville and some other inside city. Metro was under set to free for a while. And then they dropped down another level as they got through those. And then they made an example out of some of those entities and how much money was being spent for I&I and some of these. and so some of the consent decrees weren't as aggressive or as hard, but you don't want to fall behind. You want to stay ahead and try to get some of these eye and eye problems solved. And then, obviously, y'all have a bunch of growth. I mean, Middletown, the metro area is going further south all the time. And as y'all continue to grow, you're going to need more water lines, more sewer, more capacity. If you don't solve it today, you're going to have to solve it later. It will be cheaper today than it's going to be five years from now. So I don't think I'm wrong in making that assessment. Y'all can criticize me if I'm wrong or come back and tell me five years it was cheaper to do it then, but I don't think that's going to be the case. The other thing, too, about the debt issue is if the debt is fixed, the rates will be locked in. As more revenue comes in, more stuff, as you do more stuff, you know, making the debt payments will actually be a smaller and smaller part of the budget as you move forward because those payments will be locked and they won't grow with inflation. They're only, they'll stay the same or they'll get smaller if we refinance them and can lower the interest rates. But they will never be bigger than ultimately what they are once we get the debt.

Thank you. And just so we all know, right, Um, the EPA didn't come in for any other reason than we had employees call them and tell them that we weren't running our systems correctly. That's how we got into this. That's how it got started. So.

Yes.

Yes. Any more discussion? We don't have any old business, I don't think. Any new business? If not, let's adjourn for a few minutes, and then we'll get ready to do our regular BOMA meeting. Thank you, guys.