City Council - Regular Meeting

I will turn it over to Brad to explain how we picked the roads and how we grouped them for the R4 proposed millage. Thanks, Sean. Good evening. Like Sean mentioned, Brad Brickell, New York and Frost Engineers. I'm a city engineer here. I've been here my whole career working through R2, R3, and now R4. I have a lot of experience and knowledge with the system and how it all came together. What I kind of want to do is just say, you know, what are the steps that the city and myself kind of went through to kind of figure out what roads are needed and what roads are the ideal ones to select for this? So the first step that we do is we do a PESA rating. And so what a PESA rating is, it's a visual evaluation. So we send out certified personnel that will go and essentially drive every single road segment throughout the whole city. and they do an evaluation. The reason we have multiple people is because it can be somewhat subjective, right? So you have the ability to have other people's eyes on at the same time. They'll drive the street, evaluate it, and kind of have a discussion and set a rating to it. So essentially, step one is figuring out everything in the city that the way we looked at was kind of like a one and four. That's the typical norm of where a road is kind of, it needs some substantial overhaul, okay? For instance, you know, one, two is like, you know, decimated. I'm not sure if we have pictures to kind of show that. So we'll kind of give you an overview of what a one, two, three, and four rating is, along with some of the other streets that have a better rating. and while he's opening it. So essentially what we do is we look at every road segment that was a one to four that needs reconstruction. Due to funding allocated to these projects, there isn't enough funding that can do everything that is rated a 1 through 4. So what we typically have to do, we have to cross-reference that with some other techniques. So let me kind of show you some examples of, you know, these are at 2, 3, 4 criteria. There's roads like this in the city that this is kind of our top priority of what we're focusing in on. Some roads may have, maybe not the whole segments that way, but they'll have maybe half of it or a majority of it that way. So those are the ones that we're impacting. So that's like a pacer rating of three. You know, this is more like a three, four. So it's not quite as bad, but obviously you're going to see the stress, the cracking, sinking of structures, things like that. So... And then this is kind of now you're getting in more to a five, six ratings, you know, seven rating, which is just your patching. But overall, as you can see, most of the panels are in good shape. It's just you're getting joint deterioration. And then that might be it.

Yep, and then we go to a... So the roads that you've seen were... The first one was Delton, which is an R3 project that we're currently constructing. The next ones were Alger and LaSalle, which is a proposed R4 that is currently rated 2 to 3. And then to give you an idea of what you can expect, this is Palmer Street. We have two blocks of it. So this is a block between LaSalle and Woodside that was just done two years ago. This is currently rated a 7. And something to know about Pazer is that A 10 is a brand new road. It immediately loses one mark just by being a year old. Once it's no longer brand new, it's already a 9 just right off the get. As you saw and you'll see on the pager map, 7, 8, 9 doesn't mean... That's a good condition. For a 5, you're getting into more fare, and 4 below is bad. So this is a current 9. because it was just done a couple years ago. This segment is a 7. This is immediately south of 13 mile, and that was done in 2009, I believe. So it's held up extremely well, and is now, what would that be?

29, so about 17 years old? 2009, you said, right? Yeah. Yeah, 17 years. So, yeah, so essentially that's the evaluation that was performed. And then, as I mentioned, due to funding, we can't fix everything that falls in that criteria. So the next step that we take is we collaborate after this is prepared with DPS. And then we're kind of looking at, okay, What are the water main issues? Are there water main breaks? Is there really old water main? You know, because obviously once that road is torn out, it's a lot more economical for the city to put in water main while they're there. The other thing we do, we run videos and televise the sewers there. Anything that's going to fall within that roadway, we do just to make sure that we're fixing anything that maybe we don't know about ahead of time because it's a lot cheaper once that road's out to make those improvements. So that's what we did. So then we, that was kind of that second tier priority. So we looked at all the roads that maybe had a lot of watering breaks or high maintenance requirements and then that kind of dropped some of the other road segments off and it made those more of a priority.

And that's why when you're looking at the pager map, if you have two threes side by side, one over the other, the one might have a worse water main where the other one might have a newer one with less problems. The one that requires more work, more bang for your buck is going to get the attention.

Exactly. And then kind of the last criteria that we looked at was we understand that the city residents are paying for these roads. So what we want to be conscientious of is not to say, hey, we're going to utilize all the funding in one specific location. The idea is to kind of spread it around so that everybody can feel the benefits of the improvements. And so as you can see from this map here, so we're essentially for the most part following the same order that was done in R1, R2, and R3. So this one represents year one, we're going to be here in 2028, then 2029, 2030, so on and so forth. So it kind of tells you what years during the process we're going to be there. The other thing that we did as far as spreading the finances and funding a little further is within these orange boxes here, essentially what we do is, and I'll kind of get a little more of it later, is some of these streets are in really bad condition. But there's some other streets that maybe have 20, 30 feet of a road panel that's in really bad shape. So the idea is we do sectional repairs. So between their office and our office, during construction, they'll walk through here and they allocate a certain amount of funding, and then they'll go in and fix slab repairs. So it kind of brings the rating up through that whole community in that particular area. We also look at it as we're already disrupting residents in that area, so let's not do one street and then the next year jump back and do something else. Let's kind of focus on that entire area all at one event. The other thing I was going to talk about is the cost of the roads. So a full reconstruct, which consists of pavement removal, working with the additive base improvements, drainage improvements, like I mentioned, videoing the sewers, making sure everything's, if they're in bad shape, we'll fully replace the sewers. Water main impacts, which will result in sidewalk repairs, drive approaches. even like irrigation systems, things like that. And so the typical cost of that now is about $600 to $620 a foot. To kind of put it in perspective, when we first started this program 10 years ago, it was $400 a foot. What we typically see is an increase of kind of what follows along with that average inflation. We see prices go up about 3% every year. So when we do our budget, we don't just say, hey, next year it's gonna cost $620 a foot. Because we want to be responsible and ensure that the roads we're allocating to be done, the funding is there for it, we apply an inflation factor each year. So it might cost 620, then 3% more every year, so on and so forth. That allows us to ensure that the budgeting is there.

And if I could jump in really quick, that is one of the main premises of R4 and indeed all the R programs that we've done already. We've developed this list of roads that is on the map. We have a table. These are the roads that will be done if proposal R4 is passed. That is a promise we're making to our residents. We won't go back six years later and say, well, we don't have the money. We can't do it. These are the roads that will be done. Same thing with R1, 2, and 3. Right.

And then the other benefit that I'll kind of mention on here, right here, the sectional repair segments, these outlined in yellow, these unfortunately are some of the road segments that were done in the past that they had some concrete deterioration for whatever factors, whether it's, you know, new mix designs, you know, doesn't buy the state. materials that were from, we had some instances when we ran out of materials in the U.S. back then, that they would go to China or different sources. This was probably in the late 90s, which is when some of these roads were done. And so we did have some issues. So if this passes, that frees up that funding to allow us to go and do some of these other sectional projects. So we're trying to, if it gets passed, it allows us to do that. So that's what that represents. And then, you know, some of the reasons it goes up, as we know, you know, obviously COVID was a big thing. You know, you weren't able to get the materials and all that. The labor wasn't there. So it jacked up prices. Oil prices are another one. But like I said, that 3% average over a 10 year period, sometimes we're stagnant, you when the Great Recession that we all know we actually saved money so what because prices went down because people are really hurting to get work so I went over the prices and what that allowed us to do is at the end when there was excess funding it allowed us to continue to do additional roads above and beyond what was outlined in there so it's not like the city just stops with that program if there's any excess funding they're putting it into the roads and expanding the scope The last thing I was going to speak about is kind of the expected life of the road. So from an engineering standpoint, we look at 30, 40 years as the life expectancy of a road. We are pretty confident that they're going to last longer than that. For instance, most of the roads in the city of Madison Heights, the original roads are up to 70 years old. I mean, those are the ones that we're working on. Doesn't mean that they've been good for 30, 40 years. You know, there was a point where they started getting bad, but my point of this is Roads slowly deteriorate over time for a lot of different factors. So what we do to try to extend the life is, you know, normally after about 15 years, we start seeing maybe some panel cracking. So you might see some joint sealing, or you might see some slab repairs. You get a couple panels that maybe settle, we'll go in and fix those 15, 20 years. That'll buy more time, much like we're talking about in these vicinities. That's the intent, is to buy more life on that road. And then usually when we get that 30, 40, 50-year mark, that's when you see us needing to add this to the bond proposal because they're in that poor shape. So I think that's about all I had.

Okay, we've touched upon it, but we're going to turn it over to Chris Woodward to talk more about why we do the water mains with the road and what benefit that is to the residents.

Yeah, just...

All right.

It's pretty simple because, like Brad said, when you're already out there doing the work, we would have to do the restoration work and any concrete, flat work, things like that twice if we came back five or ten years later and did the road work. So, you know, the cost of that would just... I think you can estimate a cost. I don't know what that would be, but... it would just be like throwing good money at bad. So that's really why we do that. And we know, too, that if the road is 70 years old, a lot of the water main is that old, too. And we have multiple breaks on the water main. We have another map that shows all of our water main breaks, but we overlay that on top of the road page rating map and try to prioritize that way, too.

We also coordinate with the other utilities as well. Consumers Energy has been really good to work with because, as you know, many of our neighborhoods in Madison Heights, the vast majority of our homes were built in the period 1955 and slightly thereafter, and then there was another boom in the late 60s. But a huge amount of our subdivisions, our homes, our roads, our water mains, our gas mains, our sewers, 1955, if not older, That's 70 years old now. I have a bad habit of thinking, 55? That's 50 years. It's 70, and it's still getting older. So the gas companies have been very good about coming in. We send them our list of roads. They will come in if they need to do their gas main services. They'll do that before we do our water main. Then we do our water main, any sewer work. Then we do the road, because one of the things that people absolutely can't stand, and rightly so, is when the gas company comes in, they do work, they pour a brand new sidewalk. Someone comes and digs up that sidewalk, does work, and pours another new sidewalk. Someone comes in and is like, how many new sidewalks? Eventually, you're just wasting money. So we really try to coordinate one dig, one done, and then hopefully you don't see us for another 30 years and you just get to enjoy your road, your shoes, and your gas, man.

Like Sean mentioned, we have a really good relationship with consumers. And so every fall, that's what we do. We send them a list. We talk about it. They check their records, cross-reference it. Much like we do with the water main, they do the same thing with their gas main. And much like we do it here because it saves money for the community, it also saves money for them as well because they know that, to Sean's point, If we're going to be coming into a lot of the drive approaches or things like that, some of these services that they're replacing or mains are going to be in those vicinities. So they can do their work, get out, and then it all gets fixed instead of... which is worse, we do a brand new road, and then they come in a year later and rip out everything that we did. So there's a lot of communication that goes on behind the scenes that a lot of people don't see to get a project to be successful. And because the city has been gracious enough, the residents, to vote this in for the last 30 years, we've really refined the process. We know it very well. You know, it's just over and over a great routine. Even if other people come in, it's just there's such a good process in place that allows it to be successful.

Melissa would be able to speak better to the finance end of things because that is entirely in her wheelhouse, but I'm happy to make a few points on that. Several people have asked us, why are we pursuing a millage as opposed to bonding this? Because we could simply go out and apply for a bond and pay for this. And the answer is that a tax millage is 100% of the money is going towards the roads, wherein if you bond, you have to pay interest on that bond, you have to pay bond management fees. What we're looking at for a, if we did a 15-year bond for $26 million, which is what we would expect, we're asking for a 10-year millage, but that's what a 15-year would bring. The annual debt on that is $2 million, which is a total interest cost at the end of the 15 years of $6.7 million. Bearing in mind that we spend roughly on average $1.8 to $2.1 million a year on roads, that's three and a half years worth of road that we can't do, that we're just paying a bonding agency. So that's really why we're going after the millage is because we want to put 100% of your tax dollars back into your neighborhood roads. And that leads me to another point. This is the neighborhood roads. This is not 11 Mile. This is not John R. This is not Dequindre. None of that. These are the neighborhood streets that you live on. We have funding from the state for our major and local roads that comes from the gas tax and various other things. That's what's used along with federal aid in order to do the major roads and then your industrial and that. So the millage is 100%. You as a resident, your road. Great. So with that, at the end of the day, roads are really one of the most visible services our government provides. I mean, you don't really see your sewer as your water main if you turn on your sink and you flush and you walk on a sidewalk, but you drive on a road pretty much every day or at least you experience it. And you don't always see everything else going on, but you always feel that pothole, that crack, that anything in your road. So this proposal is really about investing in your infrastructure, protecting your neighborhoods, and creating a long path forward for our local roads, which, again, we've been doing for the last 30 years, and we want to keep that momentum going. We appreciate you all being here tonight. We appreciate you staying informed and asking questions. And one of our biggest things is we are here to answer your questions. The city manager, public services, our engineering department, come to the source, ask us your questions, please. That is why we're here, by all means. If you have any questions, any doubts, that's what we're here for. So thank you all for coming, and with that, I'll open up to any questions.

Well, that was easy. Thank you.

Thomas.

Hi.

How else could people see this chart? Is there any, I mean, is it on our website? Is it?

It's all on that Madison Heights MI.gov slash R4. All of our information. And then you have sent out brochures. We've sent out the newsletter. Yep.

Is the phaser map on there? I don't know if the phaser.

If it's not, we can put it on there.

We can put that one on there.

Yep.

Absolutely. Because that shows me a lot. You know, because... For someone like me who doesn't understand all the stuff behind these, I can say this and say, okay, look it, that purple is bad. They need a road. Our road is still green. We're good. And I'm not trying to be rude to anybody, but... That's understandable. Simplifies it.

That's what simplifies it. Likewise, even doing the pager, we have multiple people doing it because it's very subjective. You look at the road out in front of your street and you're like, my street's absolutely terrible. Two blocks over could be like the surface of the moon, but your road is always going to be the worst one that you see and it's always going to be in the eye of you as the beholder. Pacer is interesting because it is done by road segments. So I had scrolled down here earlier. This block of Hampton is great. So this is one segment. That whole segment has to get a rating. This segment actually is in my neighborhood, and this part of the road, really not that bad. This part of the road, probably like the first maybe six or seven panels of it, are in terrible shape. That's what brings down the road rating, and that's really where the sectional work comes in If the whole street, like if this whole street needs reconstruction because the whole thing's bad, we'd rather do that. This street's rated the same, but it's really just seven or eight panels. We'll attack that with sectional and the whole road gets done. Yeah.

So you can break it down. Like with Edward, you know how long Edward is. Yes. There's, there are, I don't understand, how there are some panels that look perfectly, almost brand new. And then the one two up from that is like, somebody took a sledgehammer and just, what happened? How does that happen? Do you guys ever get, I mean, does somebody stop that from happening?

It depends on what was in the concrete mix at the time because that is one of the roads that we know it didn't last as long as we had anticipated it to. Right. And that is where the yellow on this map, which is on the website. So first and foremost, we have the blue roads. These are roads that were done over the last 30 years. These red roads are the ones that we're asking for proposal R for. So this is new money for new roads that we haven't been on before. Then in the area, in the orange area, we're doing sectional work, like that little bit of Hampton, you do a couple slabs here, you bring the whole road up. What these yellow are, are the roads that we've redone in the last 30 years, and they didn't last as long as they were supposed to, and we know that is a problem. By the road merge funding going to the roads in red, We're able to use any other funding we get from the state. Governor Whitmer's fixed the damn roads money. We're able to take that money and go back and, for lack of a better term, do a do-over and repair that road that didn't last 30 years and repave it and get it back up to snuff. So it's a road that you've already paid for. It's a road that didn't last as long as we wanted to. We know that, and we're trying to correct that. So it's a comprehensive new roads, sectional roads, roads we've done. But we're not asking for more money to redo the roads we've already done. Do money, new roads. And that, by the way, those figures were based on a 3% interest rate, which I don't think you can get right now. If we're lucky, and we have an excellent credit rating, but I think we're still at, what, 6%, 7% for municipal bonding? Yeah. So take that and double it. That's five years of roads that we couldn't do.

Because you've got to pay that interest so that money can't go to our roads.

Correct. And me personally, I'd rather put it into our roads than pay a bank.

Exactly. Now, when are they starting out? I'm an optimist. This is going to pass. So when it passes, when will it start?

We are in the last year of proposal R3. So it would be 2027 is going to see construction up here in the Moulin Rouge sub. 2028 would see the first year of R4. So this would keep it rolling.

That's nice. Moulin Rouge. I love the name of that.

Yeah, Moulin Fontaine, all the French ones. And I get so lost in there. But that is the official name of that subdivision.

I like it. I think they need to put a canopy. Would that be included with the roads or no? Wouldn't that be nice? Wow. Okay.

Well, thanks for the questions. Appreciate that. Okay. All set?