Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, we're recording. Go ahead. Great. Thank you.

I'd like to call to order. Is Thursday, September 3rd, 2026 meeting of the NASA planning and zoning commission and the 1st. Item I'd like to do is add an add an item to the agenda. So we need to get a motion to add an agenda item. I'd like to discuss the venue for the continuation of 26-29. That's the Mill Road application. And because I wanted to get a vote from the commission on that, we need to add it as a special agenda item. So could I have a motion? Thank you. Second. Thanks. Everybody following me okay? All in favor? Janet, can you hear okay? Yes. Okay, great. I thought we'd discuss it when we get down to 26-29. Okay, so with that out of the way, I'd like to go ahead and read the process for public hearings because we have one public hearing this evening.

I'm going to do that when I get down here.

Yeah, thank you. During the public hearing, the applicant will be invited to present the application, explaining to the Commission and others present what is being requested. The applicant or staff will share all application materials on the screen as needed. Comments of town agencies will be read for each application if there are any Next, there will be clarifying questions from the commissioners. Then there will be an opportunity for clarifying questions and comments from the public, attending in person, and via Zoom. For Zoom attendance, please raise your hand through the Zoom platform and wait to be called on and unmuted. As this public hearing must be recorded, all attendees will state their names and addresses before answering questions. Public questions and comments should be concise and address issues related to the application. Questions and comments from the public are to be directed to the applicant, not to the commission. When necessary, for the sake of time and to give everyone a fair chance to speak, they will be limited to five minutes or less. Public comments supporting previous comments need not repeat those comments but can simply endorse them. We ask that we treat each other respectfully throughout the meeting. Personal attacks on the applicants and or commissioners will not be tolerated. The applicant will have an opportunity to address any questions or concerns raised by the commissioners and the public. Once the public hearing is closed, the applicant is free to leave or remain for the balance of the regular meeting during which the Commission will try to reach a decision on each application. Each applicant will be notified in writing as to the direct decision of the Commission and has a right to appeal to the Superior Court if desired. Decisions of this meeting are available the day after the meeting by calling the Land Use Department at 203-245-5631 after 9 a.m. The recording of this meeting will be made available on the Town website for viewing. Seated this evening are Mike Bogda, Michelle Clark, I would like to see you in the workplace if Jen counts, if that's okay? Sure. Vice Chair John Duzza and Secretary John Morgan, Bob O'Connor, Janet Peckinpah via Zoom, and myself, Carol Snow, Chair. Staff present this evening is Aaron Mannix, Town Planner, and the Town Planner, Remember Reed, for legal notice.

Notices hereby given that the Madison Planning and Zoning Commission will hold a public hearing on Thursday, September 3rd, 2026, beginning at 7 p.m. in Meeting Room A, the James Madison Room. Town Campus, 8 Campus Drive, Madison, Connecticut, 06443. This is a hybrid meeting, and attendees may also join via Zoom webinar, either through the webinar link or call in information below. The webinar ID is 915-8196-6735. The password is 452-138. And the dial-in number is 646-558. 8656. The following application will be heard. Number 26-32 plus Coastal Site Plan for 908 Boston Post Road, Map 39, Lot 4, Zone R2. The owner-applicant Nicholas and Nancy Robert. Again, this is a coastal site plan application. It's a site plan modification and major downtown village district application to modify porch railings, patio and walkway for unit in a small cluster housing development. Copies of this application are available for inspection in the Land Use Office. Further details on how to participate in the webinar are posted on the Town of Madison website, www.madisonct.org. All written correspondence can be submitted to the Land Use Department via email. To land use at madisonct.org, dial 203-245-5631 for assistance. Dated at Madison, Connecticut, this 14th day of August 2026, Carol Snow Chair. This was published once in the New Haven Register on August 20th and once in the source on August 27th.

Thank you, Erin. Could I have a motion then to open 26-32, Pulsar Coastal Site Planner, 908 Boston First Road, Microblog Data 2nd. We'll honor any further discussion on the day of the open and public hearing. Good to go.

Hi, my name is Dewey Dickinson. I'm the architect of General's Residence Development and I'm the architect for This new owner of this unit once made some minor modifications to the scene, I think, but I'll just go over them with you. The one area which is visually present, as with all of the Madison Historical Commission, Madison Historical Society, the Madison Historical Commission, and also the Advisory Council on Community Appearance. And according to my advice, approved by the Homeowners Association of units of four rubles so far this i think is the last rule before the direction the one area that the one area that is i would say visually present is the putting in a low fence which was which was a railing which was on the original home and the historical commission said they they thought they didn't really need to have it in the fact that we raised up this earth it's not required by code but they but the homeowners would like to be able to sit up there and they difficult they need a little bit more barrier We simply make the barrier that was there before and put it back. At the front, we have two walkways that come out to the street. And they are now just simply two foot by three foot pieces of loose stone with six inches in between them. They'd like to make them into tiny ashlar patterned, both in this tiny ashlar walkways. They're done in sand. The rear, which change is that we actually have this raised deck that was done by the first owner, and these owners would like to have what everybody else has in the entire place, which are these straw terraces, which are the area that was designated as a potential development for that area. So we're dropping that down using the same stone walls. Two enhancements are that I think about a project I worked on a while ago. We may be able to We may be able to shroud utility boxes with painted wood, which would be really nice. They could do it, but it's been done somewhere else, so I'm going to ask them to do that. They'd like to have about two-thirds light door here, which is sort of what they had before, but they would like to have like a big door. There's a three-foot, six-inch-high wall at the back, which, again, nobody sees. They want to put plants on top of that.

so i think that's pretty much all the things that closes you all see okay i wouldn't ask if you could slide down this way and then probably put it in front so jenna can see it yeah because it's on the screen are you seeing it i can see it i can see i can see it on the screen hi jenna yeah thank you hi good is there any wood yes

It'll be 1 system and you who do you need to get permission from about the boxes for the electrical would be the.

Wanted Northeast. Yeah, and it's a. A ring of hell, so it's not as bad as comment and also, I mean, something. It's called like, oh, up in Buffalo, something called grid. And apparently grid in Buffalo is worse than anywhere on the planet. The hip global. We recently went with a flu that, I'm not the one in front, but yeah. Oh, this little guy. Yes.

No, no, I'm sorry. The stone, the stone stuff.

Yes. Well, these are great. These two guys are great walkways. Okay. And these guys here are basically city walls and match the other city walls that are in the place. In height? Yes.

Okay.

So they're like 18 inches too big.

Any questions or comments? Thank you for keeping the spirit of the John L. Justin story.

Are you kidding me? It's a measure of love. It's been a

Dorothy did my one idea. Everybody does.

And actually, I love to stay with each other.

Janet, any questions or comments? I was having trouble hearing Duo, but I think everything looked fine in the drawing. Yeah. And I know that area so well that I know what the walls are going to look like. It'll be great.

I can see it from where you're sitting.

I know, right? I can see it out my front window.

Yeah.

Okay, any other questions or comments? In that case, could I have a motion to close the public hearing? Oh, sorry.

The public needs to be public.

Thank you. Any questions or comments?

Jim Nordgren, 387 Boston Post Road. The Belgian block interlocking.

These are just bluestone flush pavers.

So you're increasing the impervious surface. No, we're not.

They're going to be set in sand, and they're exactly the same. Oh, good.

Because there is still a stormwater runoff problem on 217. And this will also be set in sand.

This will be set in sand. Good. That's actually mandated by ACCA.

Yes, ACCA made that recommendation.

And the stormwater runoff. anymore, but that's an engineering issue that they set up. And I think the biggest thing, just not journeying to this project, but the reality is it is, as Aaron said, it's a civil issue at this point where if the system fails to meet engineering standards, that's your recourse. Well, it was hoping...

you could somehow mitigate. It's a different issue. If there is still a stormwater runoff issue, that's another thing we'll discuss at some other time. My second point is it would be an opportune time now to, before you allow a modification, We talked about this for a couple years. I agree it was a win-win. You said so, too. They actually have a deed restriction filed with the land records that they're going to remove the invasive species on the riparian buffer next to the fence creek. I measured it. Erin and I talked about it. She wasn't quite sure how much of the land... General's Residence was responsible for it. It's about 15,000 square feet, so it's almost half an acre. And it's been nearly two years since that requirement was made by you in return for giving up that dreaded bench, remember? It gave up the dreaded bench.

Can I add to that? Yes. Actually, that invasive species thing was actually part of the original discussion slide. it would actually, you know, that that was part of, well, maybe not written, but that was part of the understanding.

Right, it is written down. There's a deed restriction that you demanded because it was unclear how committed they needed to be to remove all the invasive species. And the point was to maintain the visual line of sight for Fence Creek because you have a non-water-dependent project, DEEP, that was public access to maintain the view. So it's been almost two years. I go by it every day. It's gotten worse, not better. Let me just finish on this. The Phragmites now has invaded up into the native plant riparian buffer, which is almost non-existent. We now have mudwort in there. And we also have Japanese knotweed and tree of heaven. Now, to Erin's credit, I spoke with her last summer about this. And I also emailed her three times this summer. So I know she's, well, I know you're on top of it, Erin. So it seems like a good opportunity to get the Homeowners Association to at least work on what they are required by law to do, which is Remove invasive species in perpetuity. I have the exact writing from November 2024. How could you forget? We spent six meetings on it. So am I speaking in favor of this? I'm in favor of this application with conditions that you somehow get the invasive removal project moving forward. And if it's not moving forward, Aaron, you've been out there. You haven't been out there yet. we don't want to be you don't want to be mean but it's a violation it's a violation it's been two years so it's a good opportunity to you hate to approve a change when there's an outstanding issue right now's a good time to talk about it and clear it up because it's been two years and it's getting worse not better the answer question is up because i drive i live across the street right so so

I've seen Phragmites get big, but you're saying all the other stuff's coming in soon.

Unfortunately, there was a nice strip of native plants planted there. They're almost overwhelmed now. It's getting worse. There was some brush hogging done, I think, in winter last year. You can't brush hog Phragmites. Additionally, I noticed today there are three new non-native evergreen trees planted right there. It must be a planting plan. I'm surprised somebody would put three non-native trees right there.

It was one long time ago. They planted three trees there recently when they did that little thing down there.

to maintain invasive species removal. We made sure it was written in perpetuity, and that is indeed recorded with the Town of Madison land records. So I don't want to be too strict about it, but can we follow up on that, please? Because they agreed to do it.

Did you want to respond to me to that?

No, I have no responsibility for that, but I do know the HOA a little bit, and the HOA is, I think, has had a change of leadership. if you just met with them.

So that's me. Actually, the Planning and Zoning Commission, you're required by law to be sure these conditions are met.

Well, then I think that's...

I'm happy to meet as a friend. That's what I think. It's your legal responsibility.

Would that be a zoning enforcement...

officer office has received a written complaint from jim and has been informed that our zoning wants to investigate the complaint and for each other good okay independent i i hear i hear your point about connecting the two but it's not really related to this application i don't absolutely i'm not i'm not a town attorney i don't think you can approve something if there's an outstanding issue there's an alleged violation. There is no enforcement action that is underway currently.

I've notified you four times for this. You haven't gone out there yet?

I am not the inspector.

It should be a violation. It doesn't have to be a mean violation. But someone's got to tell the HOA you said you'd do this and you were bound to do it by law.

Okay, thanks. You're on the record here for saying that. And I think going back to the application, the non-native and the invasive species aren't really impacting this portion of the site for this application. So, I think... Did we...

Yeah, thank you. Good evening. Carolyn Missouri, not through for Boston books road. I also have been good opportunity to work with them at the time that general stress and this was underway. One of the things that also is related to this whole issue of how things get built as well as how they, how the PNC improved it was that there was a buffer to prevent the, housing from just the built environment that is the degree. And that also was written out in a letter by John Cunningham. It was part of the approval that Buffalo will be placed. And I'm sure Jerome remembers that. Oh, yeah.

And actually, my memory is this quality, of course. My memory was they did do some of that native planting in the first year. They did actually do a whole bunch of native planting in the first year. And I think what I'm now showing with this, I think the invasive stuff is done when the invasive stuff does, which is it takes over the non-invasive stuff.

Well, I think you're right, and that's why I'm raising it, because it's just related, and I think you should just know the whole story, that our expectation and what Cunningham outlined, and I think we're in the drawings, as I recall, that there would be native trees and shrubs.

That was in Steven's drawings, but yes, it was in there. It was in Steven's drawings. And it was in there.

And it was in there, that there would be native plantings, so that those of us that look at the general residence homes every day don't see all the light of the built environment and many of us feel as though there's two birds etc so i think there's a lot of literature to support the idea that the natural environment is important for the creek and as a consequence of that i think that what has to also be taken into consideration is this issue of what was originally approved by the community And again, I had sent this letter to Erin about a month ago. I know she's very busy, but it's also tied into this whole notion of we're just building and going further, but we're not dealing with the fundamentals. And fundamentals are really important to those of us that live right across the creek and that we see it every day. It's a question now.

I hear you and I understand your concerns. I'm trying to understand where our scope is involved here so that we can make an appropriate determination and consider the request accordingly. What I'm hearing is that the owners of this particular condominium unit are asking for some improvements. That's all. So there's the ownership of the individual condominium asking for improvements to their property.

That's correct.

Which is, in fact, a part of a condominium association, which then has obligations to, in fact, uphold the development of the property. So the way I'm hearing it is there's two separate issues at hand here and while i understand your concerns i don't i don't know how we as a planning and zoning would tie those two things together and i don't know that that the lack of action on one part would have an impact on the relative action of the other one or the enforcement of the conditions that were said right so obviously don't impact this application and we're not enforcers

But that's why you have public hearings. Exactly. It's our only chance to say this.

I can send emails to people all day long.

Yeah, perfect.

It's a public hearing. It's emeritus. Trust me.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's well said and agreed. And I don't think you're hearing a real objection to the patios per se. I think what you're hearing is concern that there's a porous environment there that we'll outline later. Because part of the P&Z original appeal was that all of the driveways and all would be porous material. It's all white asphalt.

But that wasn't the final application.

But that came after. It wasn't in the final application.

The final application did actually have all the asphalt. And what they did was they calculated. their design of the groundwater system. So that changed the capacity of the groundwater system to be larger than it was with Billy's thing, which was just gravel. And so that made it

I remember it slightly differently. We can move it up together at some point. But the larger point is I think you understand quite well the frustration with seeing the environment really change, not really thinking that the owners are at fault necessarily for all these things because I don't think they knew. That's correct. And I don't think they knew what was agreed to. We heard that.

That's actually true. I've had to deal with all these units, and I've had to inform people with all of them, and there are just gaps in information, and I try to do my best.

As a matter of fact, when Mad for Trees, which is such a great organization trying to plant trees and native trees in Madison, I suggested to a friend, Then he asked them if they would like to have some native trees that they could plant as buffer. And they responded in saying they're not allowed to plant them along the fence creek, which is not correct at all. In fact, there were trees there that died because the roots had been removed when they dug down to build. Just let me finish.

I just want to correct you. They weren't done. The construction didn't end.

We can agree to disagree, but never mind. The point is, there's a larger point here, and that is that I think the folks that live there don't understand that, of course, they can plan a buffer there. What they can do is obscure the view from the Boston Post Road to the Fence Creek, which is Jim's concern that now. these natives as well as the Phragmites have grown too high. But my point is in support of a larger view of the environment, which is simply that the agreement was that there could be a buffer for the birds, for the other animals, and so that we don't see this intense light every night across. And it's just really changing the environment. So that's really what it's about. I'm so glad you guys are here and listening to this, too, and hopefully carry back a very positive message that we don't, or I'll speak for myself, I don't think these homeowners are ignoring things as much as just not knowing.

Well, speaking as a neighbor, I didn't quite get what you said, and I have no doubt it's true. I got the fact that the Fragmentis came back in because I got Fragmentis on my phone. They're all the time. I didn't know that all that other crap was coming back in, so we obviously didn't.

The last point is on the plan of conservation development. Right. The POCD that recently approved one of the goals is to protect and restore tidal wetlands. We're big on that one. So this kind of fits right into a goal that you all set for yourself to restore and protect the tidal wetlands. Remember? It wasn't that long ago.

We appreciate hearing from you. It's on the record. It's an enforcement issue, not us approving a specific application, but we hear you. Thank you.

Maybe do open encourage the homeowners to listen to the testimony tonight.

Because that I agree, but I also think to be honest, what we really would be good at, maybe to even get to a sidewalk with John Cunningham out there, just out there and look at those invasives and look at when there's a plan.

There is, it must have been very invasive removal plan.

There is, and it would be good to get John out there and say, hey, if you guys want to do this, it involves that. And I'm sure that that because it involves they're spending money to do that. No, they have to do that. I know. But they don't know what they have to do. I think John would be a better example.

Or how to get there.

John would be a way to connect the problem with a solution. So I'll try to send a note to John and say, hey, can you just go out there and meet with these guys?

That's nice, but it's also up to the zoning enforcement officer.

Yes, agreed. What are the consequences for an infraction of a zoning regulation?

When our office receives a complaint, my zoning officer will go out and investigate that. The way that is prioritized is based on workload.

So if a violation is found, what are the consequences?

It depends what it is. I mean, sometimes you can start with a phone call to someone and communicate with them of what. Is going on, um, you know, I.

We are allowed to you can have these daily finds. I mean, you're not going to do that in this case.

Typically, the Land Use Office doesn't start with citations when you receive a complaint.

That's what I was asking, and maybe you could carry on.

Trying to work with property owners.

One needs to be more mindful of what the regulations are. If a complaint has been filed, there could be repercussions if they are found to be in violation of their obligations.

Later stages may involve flocking.

But I do actually think that her desire is their desire. They don't know how to do it. I know these people, and they, like me, they hate this.

The problem is removing invasives is very expensive and time-consuming, and it can take 10 years. You need an expert to do it, so... I'm surprised they agreed to do it, but they wanted to get rid of that dreadful bench. They agreed to do it, and it's expensive, and you have to be on top of it for 10 years.

And I'm happy to talk to them about it.

I'll try to convince you guys. I know you're talking so much better than I was.

It's not my job. It's not our job. We don't have that.

Sorry, Carol. But the applicant is a good key person here. Nice fondling.

Sadly, I've got a target on my back.

All right. Any other questions or comments? I'm looking remote. I don't see any hands up. Do you, Erin?

No.

All right. Any other questions or comments? Based on what we've heard so far? In that case, did I have a motion to close the public hearing and move to deliberations? Second? Second. In favor? Okay, thanks. Thank you, guys. Thank you.

Thank you.

It sounds like enforcement. And so then process.

we were just knowing they filed due process will ensue yes okay yeah and it's not related to this application has no bearing on the application all right uh motion to approve yeah second okay any further discussion i think we have a draft

Thank you, Karen.

Do you want me to read it? John, would you like to? Would you like to?

I shall.

Go ahead.

Following draft resolutions offered, the Modest Planning and Zoning Commission approves complication 26-32 plus coastal site plan. 908 Boston Post Road, Mount 39, Lot 4, Zone R2. Owner and applicants, Nicholas J. and Nancy J. Robert. Postal site plan application, site plan application, and major downtown village district application. The model by Board of Regents, Patty Ellen Walkway. Per unit, small poster housing development, external architectural plan, titled Robert. 908 Boston Post Road, S. Atkins, 06403. She, S.K., dated 7-20-2026. By Dune Dickens, architect, and site plan, entitled Robert. 908 Boston Post Road, Madison, Connecticut, 06443. Site Plan Sheet SK, prepared by D.O. Dickens, architect of the following conditions. One, that the zoning enforcement officer be notified at least 48 hours prior to commencing any regulating activity. Two, that any necessary erosion and sedimentation controls be installed prior to any site disturbance and be maintained for the duration of the construction activities and until the site is sufficiently stabilized to the satisfaction of the zoning enforcement officer. IN THE EVENT THAT CHANGES TO THE IMPROVED PLANS ARE REQUIRED AS A RESULT OF OTHER AGENCIES PERMITTING TO SUPPORT THE CLOSED ACTIVITY, THE MADISON PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION RESOURCE REQUIRED TO REVIEW SET CHANGES AND MAY REQUIRE MODIFICATION OF THIS PROPOSAL. THE COMMISSION FIND THAT WITH THE INVOLVED RECORDS CONDITIONS, THE PROPOSAL IS CONSISTENT WITH ALL APPLICABLE RULES AND POLICIES OF THE PROPOSAL MANAGEMENT ACT AND SECTION 15 OF THE MADISON ZONING REGULATIONS. NO CONTICIPATED IMPACTS TO PROPOSAL RESOURCES ARE EXPECTED. effective date in this approval is september 17th 22 to 6. thank you michelle that's it any further discussions on vader to approve amen thank you everyone All right, we have a pending application for 26-15.

What's the Coastal Site Plan? This is Garnet Park Road. I'm your applicant, the Town of Madison. Applications of Coastal Site Plan review for the replacement of Garnet Park Road Bridge over Bailey Creek. Representative to present.

Kim Fletcher from Barton & Lodges, the engineering firm from the town, is here to present. Kim, did you have anyone else on your team that I needed to promote over?

I don't think so. I think it's just me.

Okay, thanks. And will you be screen sharing or do you need me to pull up your presentation?

Is it okay if I share it? Yeah, sure. Let's see if I can figure out technology. Are you seeing that clearly from where you're sitting?

Okay.

All right. So thank you very much for having me here. My name is Kim Fletcher. I'm from Barton and LaJudas, and I've been working with the town of Madison, specifically with Rob Russo on this project for the last few years. So this is Garnett Park over Bailey Creek in Madison, of course. Hold on. Oh, there we go. Okay. So this is just a picture, a quick picture of what we're talking about. This is the existing bridge. It's two pipes. I'm going to get a little bit more into that in a second here. I just want to show you where it's located first. So it's on Garnett Park, a little bit near Governor's Way. But this whole section of roadway, you can't tell based on this, but this is all... one way in and out. So it's a dead end. So this bridge is serving that entire community. And so if this bridge fails, then you're essentially trapping these people in their neighborhoods. This is an aerial of the same, and this is just showing what we're here to talk about, which is the coastal resiliency and the coastal plan. And these are all the tidal wetlands that are in this area.

There we go.

All right. I think I finally figured it out. So like I said, the existing is a 48 inch and a 60 inch corrugated metal pipe with concrete wing walls and head walls. It was built in the 1960s. And as I said, it carries Garnett Park over Bailey Creek. It's tidally influenced. It's currently 47 feet long from end of pipe to end of pipe with a skew of 20 degrees. And this is a picture of the inside of the pipe. So we crawled through it and we continue to crawl through it every year or so just to make sure that it's not changing. while we're going through the design and permitting process, but the pipe has failed and we're seeing some roadway fill coming through. Luckily, a lot of that fill is a stone-like material, so it's not freely flowing out from over the pipe, but it is a concern, again, especially with this being the only bridge that's carrying traffic in and out of this neighborhood. This is looking at it from the top, looking north over the bridge and then looking south. The pavement is in really good shape. So we don't see any movement of the actual pavement, which tells us that the structure is stable right now. So we're not seeing any movement of that pipe. Although it's failed, we don't see any continuous movement, which is good. It is an existing bituminous overlay and the roadway width is 19 and a half. and has approximately 600 cars a day. So the existing hydraulics and the existing conditions. As you can see, there's a lot of tidal wetlands on either side of the bridge. There's a drainage area of 0.55 square miles. And it has an existing free board of 2.32, and that's using the 50-year riverine storm with a one-year tidal surge. And it has a 100-year discharge of 130 CFS. So I've put the regulatory limits on the top right there. So we have the high tide line of 2.65 and the coastal jurisdictional line of 3.7. and mean high water at 2.23. And that will come into play in a couple slides, but just a little bit more. So we had a wetland scientist come out and mark out all the flags and give us a report of what we're looking at for species and plant type. Most of the plants I can't pronounce, but I have listed them there. wildlife, you know, the heron, muskrats, raccoons, crabs, and we've gone through the IPAC and NDDV process to ensure that we have no effect or we're making sure that we're doing our work within the right timelines to minimize any impacts to these species. So how are we going to fix it? So we have proposed a 15 by seven box culvert with one foot of stream bed embedment. And we've sized it for, again, the 50 year riverine flood with a one year title and the Army Corps and deep regulation requires a one foot of freeboard. But when we took a look at the Madison coastal resiliency plan that recommended 24 inches of freeboard, And so we designed to ensure that we were meeting that 24 inch freeboard. And also here, so I had mentioned that the pipes were around 47 feet long. We've shortened the structure to 28 feet perpendicular. And so the wing walls are gonna run parallel to the road and there'll be bridge rail right on the shoulder of the road to get as much of that structure out of the water course in the wetlands that we could. So here's looking at just the culvert section and then the culvert elevation. As I said, it's a 15 foot span. It's got a slight skew. So you see the clear span there and it says 15 and some change, but that's just because you're looking at it on a skew. And Uh, additionally we, which I'm not showing here, but we're going to have an additional, um, mud mat under, under the bottom slab of one foot of, uh, concrete. And that's to ensure that we don't, uh, introduce any kind of scour concern. Um, traditionally box school burns when you don't look at scour, um, just because the nature of what the structure is, but we just, with it being a title. We just wanted to ensure that we had adequate scour protection for the future. And additionally, we also sized this box culvert structurally so that we could in the future raise the road almost two feet and we wouldn't need to redesign the box. It could take the extra weight of the roadway if in the future we need to raise the road just due to increased storms and overtopping and things like that.

Okay.

Um, so just to summarize, it's, it's a little easier to see because of this one, uh, with the colors is the orange is the box over and the wing walls. The yellow is the roadway reconstruction. Um, so we try to limit the roadway reconstruction to just what is necessary to tie it back in. Um, and with the existing roadway being like 19 and a half and us, us, um, extending this to a 24 foot roadway to meet design, um, requirement, or I'm sorry, it's 22 foot roadway with shoulders on either side. So that's why it shows 24 on that drawing, but it's 22 feet for driving purposes. And that is due to design requirements through Connecticut DOT and AASHTO. And I'm going to explain the water handling because it has a lot to do with the impacts. Again, because this area is one way in and out, we have no option other than to stage construction so that we can maintain at least alternating one way traffic in and out. So that did add a little bit to our temporary impacts. So during stage one, we'll be removing half of the pipe and installing installing the box section there while we shift traffic to the west and allow alternating one way. Once we have that first portion of box in, we'll switch, and that's what stage two is, and we'll allow traffic alternating one way on that eastern side while we build the western portion of it. And then for our third, that would just be installing that last piece of guide rail that we couldn't get to because the cofferdam and things were in the way during the stage one and two. So now how are we going to protect everything? So we have had an interagency meeting with Army Corps and DEEP and We have reviewed the project with them over the course of the last two years. And we've come to a plan that I think everybody has, that everybody feels comfortable with. So it's three kind of boxes. So we're trying to avoid as much impact as we possibly can. We're maintaining all of our inundation limits. What gets wet now during these changing tides will still get wet after the new box. So we're not going to be drying up any wetlands. We're maintaining the same drainage patterns that are existing now and avoiding any future tidal wetland impacts where feasible. Where we can't help it, we're trying to minimize it. So there are limited wetland and water course disturbances associated again with the temporary condition where we're doing construction and we'll be installing sheeting, which will temporarily impact the wetlands. But we tried to limit that construction footprint as much as we could while maintaining traffic and then also provide additional freeboard where we could to help with any sort of future flooding events. And then lastly, where we couldn't prevent any, we are going to mitigate. And so ultimately we end up with approximately 185 square feet of permanent impacts. And when we spoke with DEEP, they thought that this would be a good location for title plant translocation. Um, and so we have hired, um, Davison environmental and he is, um, he's putting together the final package for the translocation plan. Um, and that will include a minimum of three years of monitoring to ensure that it's established. Um, I think, and then after that, the contract shows just a, like a, an hourly rate. So if at three years it hasn't established, he'll continue monitoring. and giving recommendations until we have a re-established wetlands. This one lays out what those impacts are. We have a total wetland impact of 535 square feet. 360 of that is the temporary wetland impact. which is from either removing the existing pipes work within the cofferdam um yeah pulling and installing and removing sheet piling removing the existing structure because we have to extend the sheet piling out a little further than the extents of our new structure because we have to get the old one out um And then from a permanent wetland impact, we have about 175 square feet. Sorry, I said 185, 175. But we're cutting that down to below mean high water. So the areas that we're having permanent wetland impacts, we are creating a water course. And then we're still going to do a one-to-one mitigation with the translocation to reestablish that wetland area. From a watercourse standpoint, we have 1,070 square feet and that's all temporary. We don't have any permanent wetland impact or watercourse impact. It's all temporary during construction and we're actually creating watercourse because the areas where you used to have a pipe and fill between those pipes, that's all going to be watercourse now. And there's no vegetated shallows within the project limits, our wetland scientist described. So this is kind of what I just said. We're creating 835 square feet of wetland watercourse from the existing upland review area. So that, again, is because we're bringing the bridge into... in closer to the roadway. So instead of it extending out that 47 feet, and now we're only at 26, there's an area that was either pipe or roadway fill that now is gonna be water course. The areas of the current wetlands that is gonna be dropped below the mean high water, that will be water course. And sorry, I think I'm repeating myself, but yes, okay. And then hydraulic and floodplain. This is the FEMA flood map. We are not filling within the floodplain. It's a minor cut in the area. Here's the hydraulic information. So obviously the same drainage area will have the same flow rate. The velocities are very slow, 0.38. Just the tide coming in and the tide going out. The water surface elevation between the existing and the proposed is remaining the same. And we're meeting the freeboard requirement of that 24 inches with some buffer there. So this is just kind of a snapshot of all the environmental and species considerations that we looked at. We ran through all of the requirements of the Army Corps and DEEP. permits to ensure that we're not negatively impacting any of the species, whether it be federal or state and ensuring that we're working with all the time of year restrictions in order to minimize any impacts to those to those species. And so this again, I kind of already went over this, but it's going to be one to one. The way it'll work is that Davison right now, he is currently determining which plants that he feels have basically the best chance of a translocation being successful. And he's providing to us a set of plans that we'll include in our bid package, which outlines to the contractor that this translocation has to happen prior to construction. So that way these plants are not impacted by the construction that's happening around them. And that will be handled both with plans and also special provisions that will be included in the, in the package. And, and again, he'll be monitoring this for at least three years to ensure that these plants live and are thriving. And if they're not, then he would make recommendations in, in what to do next. And, and within that, within the plans, um, if, if the plants die, so like if he monitors them for two years, let's say, and then he goes back and he's like, these wetland plants that we have, um, that we translocated didn't live at that point, that 175 that we're doing a one-to-one, um, mitigation for would then become a three to one so at that point we would be mitigating um by planting new wetland um somewhere else to to um account for that loss of wetlands the remedy situation i'm sorry the remedy situation yes exactly um and so tonight um I wanted to talk through with you our coastal site plan for any of the questions or comments that you have. Additionally, we'll be seeking approvals through local flood management. We already have our permit in process with Army Corps and DEEP, and we've had continued conversations with them. This piece this translocation piece was the last piece of it. And so they're continuing to review and we will be providing them with Davison's report once we receive it, and then they'll be able to finalize that review. But from all of our conversations, that was the last piece to the puzzle. Um, and then just quickly, so the project schedule, uh, we hope to put this out to bid by the end of this year. Um, not that pipe is a bad shape. It's really important that we get this thing replaced so that we make sure that we have, um, adequate, um, roadway for those, uh, people that live in that neighborhood. Um, we are getting funding through the state local bridge program. Uh, so they pay 50% of engineering construction and inspection. And so, you know, the state reviews all plans and specs prior to going out to bid as well. And so everything that we just kind of talked about is listed here, but I'm happy to answer any questions or anything that I've missed. Thank you very much for allowing me to come and talk with you guys.

Thank you, Kim. Thanks, Kim. Anyone have questions since that's me?

I have a silly one. How was the failing culvert first discovered?

So we get hired a lot to look at bridges that are under 20 feet because anything over 20 feet is inspected by the state every two years, but towns are responsible for inspecting bridges under 20 feet. And so when we were looking at some of the other structures in town, That one was flagged.

Good. Kim, I saw that Phragmites was listed on your list of species, plant species in the area. So will you be able to get rid of that? I mean, are you, could that be a goal is to get rid of some of the invasives while you're?

Yes. Thank you for mentioning that. I wrote that down and then I didn't say it. Part of the spec package is that we are removing any of the invasive species in the area as well.

Great. Good. Super. And then I had a question about the new culvert that you're putting in. How far down into the muck do you have to go?

So for the permit requirements, you have to go at least one foot. So we're going to place the bottom of the culvert on top of what we call a mud mat because the soils there are basically muck. And so we're going to be removing about two feet of that muck and then backfilling with like a granular material to place the box culvert on top of so that it doesn't, so it has good bearing area.

And I saw that you had hermit crabs and blue crabs listed. Are there mussels and oysters in there at all? Or are we too far upriver maybe?

They were not listed within any of the research we did or the biologists that we hired.

Okay. Yeah, they would have listed, I think, if they saw them. Thanks.

Thank you. Any other questions?

What's Thorwald? You mentioned Thorwald. Yep.

Freeboard. Oh, sorry. Freeboard. Freeboard.

Oh, freeboard. That is for, it's from your water surface elevation for your storm that you're designing for to the roadway surface.

Oh, is it two feet? Yes.

Can we kayak through it at lunchtime? You might be able to. I grew up on that salt marsh. I couldn't resist. I know it's like the branch that goes off the neck river. Yeah, you must know it too. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for all this information.

Yeah, I think the town has had three bridge replacements over the last few years, and all of them have gone through inland wetlands. But none of those have been within a coastal zone. So now you have gotten a full project description. And it's good.

And you get to work with deep DOT. I mean, all these sort of. levels of governance and agencies.

Right. And typically in situations like that where there's federal and state permitting, the Local takes a backseat to that permitting, which is why we've sort of pushed this application along for several months here through your statutory limits to allow the engineers to get to a point where they feel they're going to have, if any, very little modifications to the design so that they wouldn't have to come back to you.

Right. And I think I'll say, Brooke, right now, it's just... They've just admitted that they have to replace a bridge that they just put in a year ago. I don't know if anybody saw that. They didn't get it high enough. So I'm glad to hear that you're going a little extra high to accommodate sea level rise and whatever. Or that the road also can be raised without having to disrupt everything underneath. That's right. Because if the previous one lasted since the 60s, then are you projecting how long this will last?

They're designed to last 75 to 100 years.

So we might have higher CDNF. That might be a different kind of marsh in 100 years, like underwater. All right. Thank you. Would someone like to make a motion to approve? We have a draft resolution.

Motion to approve.

Thank you, Michelle. Second. Do you want to read it then? Sure.

Why not, John?

Thank you, John.

The following draft resolution is offered. The Madison Planning and Zoning Commission approves application number 26-15 plus CSP, Garnet Park Road, owner applicant, the town of Madison. Application for a coastal site plan review for the replacement of the Garnet Park Road bridge over Bailey Creek as shown in application materials with the following conditions. One, that the zoning enforcement officer be notified at least 48 hours prior to the commencement of any regulated activity. Two, that all erosion and sedimentation controls be installed prior to any site disturbance and be maintained for the duration of construction activities and until a site is sufficiently stabilized to the satisfaction of the zoning enforcement officer. In the event that changes to the approved plans are required as a result of other agency permitting to support the proposed activity, the Madison Planning and Zoning Commission reserves the right to review said changes and may require modification of this approval. The Commission finds that with the above reference conditions, including those imposed by state and federal regulations, the proposal is consistent with all applicable goals and policies in the Coastal Management Act and Section 50 of the Madison Zoning Regulations. The effective date of this approval is September 17th, 2026. Second?

I'd like to see further discussion.

Very well done.

It's approved. Good luck.

Thank you guys so much. I appreciate it. Excellent.

Thank you. All right next on the agenda, we have. 26 dash 33 plus coastal site plan for 1321 Boston post road. This is a my 31 lot 32. So, see owner applicant jail. LLC. Application for minor site plan modification and coastal site plan to install EV chargers in the parking lot. Do we have?

Yes. So I wasn't sure if we were going to be moving forward this evening, but I do see that Chelsea is here. I believe for the application. Let me just. This is typically EV chargers are considered a minor site plan modification. Would go to ACCA for review as required by the regulations. In this case, they did go before ACCA at their August meeting and

I had no comments. They're standard chargers.

Yeah. Standard pedestal. There's a pedestal in the front of the property. This is the existing vet office next to the Dunkin' Donuts on the post road. And then another one in the back parking area for cats and dogs. Yes, one for categories. I think one's for employees, one's for guests. The only reason it's before you is because a site plan modification triggers a coastal site plan application. Clearly, there are no coastal impacts associated with this application. The only coastal resources present on the site if you're familiar with the location, are the standard general resources that apply to every single property within the coastal zone.

This is across from the Dunkin' Donuts.

It's next to the Dunkin' Donuts. Yes, they share that access driveway. So there's very little excavation associated with digging out those. So I did draft a general resolution here For you that I'm happy to share. And does the commission have any questions? This is such a. Minor basic application. I'm not sure. I think we're good.

Requires spoiler play language because we've just read more of the ones we've got.

Yeah, I'll just, I just am screen sharing it for you right now.

And not that are these fast charges.

They are fast. Yeah. Are they free?

I don't think anything's free.

They gave in the packet of information. They should give a sense. Can anyone read that? Are you close enough to read?

Well, sure.

Thank you.

Madison Planning and Zoning Commission approves application number 26-33, Boston Coastal Site Plan, 1321 Boston Coast Road, Map 31, Lot 32, Zone C, Owner-Applicant JL4A, LLC, Application for Minor Site Plan Modifications in Coastal Site Plan, Installed EB, shown on application documents with the following conditions. One, that the zoning enforcement officer be notified at least 48 hours prior to commencement of any regulated activity. Two, that any necessary erosion and sedimentation controls have been installed prior to any site disturbance and be maintained for the duration of construction activities and until the site's officially stabilized to the satisfaction of the zoning enforcement officer. The event that changes to the improved plans are required as a result of other agency permitting to support the proposed activity that is massive planning and zoning commission reserves the right to review said changes and may require modifications, modification of this approval. Commission finds that with the above reference conditions, the proposal is consistent with all topical goals and policies, Coastal Management Act, Inception 15 of the Madison Zoning Regulations. No anticipated acts to coastal resources are expected. The effective date of this approval is September 17th, 2026. Yeah.

Second. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor?

Votes and no's.

Thank you, everybody.

Thanks for explaining that.

Oh, yeah, next on the agenda 26 dash 34 plus coastal site plan for 19 advent hill road. Um, and they've.

I think we're going to reschedule.

So if I could have a motion to reschedule, this was. It was scheduled for 17th, but we'd like to move the public hearing to October 1st. Motion Thank you. 2nd, any further discussion. All in favor so that we'll get put on the agenda for October 1st. Okay, then 26-29 plus Coastal Site Network Mill Road. This was the one that was opened on September 17th and continued. I'm sorry, opened in August and continued to September 17th. And we saw that there was quite a turnout. And the question is now that I wanted to discuss with everybody and take a vote on is, What should we do? I had said that we would find a larger space to accommodate the public. Turns out, I think the only option might be neck river elementary school. Aaron, you're not keen on a new place for a big. For a public hearing, but.

How much can you get across over there?

That room is not available.

Awesome.

Yeah. So, and so. The question is, should we go to all zoom? I prefer not to do that because I have trouble seeing and I also feel that it is important to be nice. Well, so I just wanted to get a sense. It would be easier to do zoom for sure. Is that right, Erin? Do you want to add some more pluses from Zoom versus trying to figure out what it is today?

Given the fact that there was a turnout at the last meeting, this room has limited capacity. Correct. There's limited meeting rooms available with hybrid capacity due to construction projects within the school. This room next door, meeting room C, is not available. Experience that we have had in sharing. Even if the room was available in sharing overflow rooms and things like that. always have to consider when there's an application with opposition the potential for appeal the potential for having accurate transcripts having everyone be able to be heard to see we have one screen here in this room that's available for viewing for folks in person it was my recommendation that the um meeting be moved to entirely zoom to uh best accommodate everyone um for visibility and hearing and um carol expressed concern um about being able to see on a smaller screen um there are individual accommodations for commissioners and any member of the public um if there are uh you know, a need for a larger screen or no access to a computer, things like that, those opportunities are always available. Carol did request that we have consultation from our town attorney, which was done yesterday. And Carrie Olson did as well recommend the Zoom format entirely. But Carol today requested that we bring this to the commission and open the agenda for the commission to vote on this. I think this is somewhat unique as the commission has in my history at least. Never voted on a venue or a location for a meeting. It's a little unusual and. I mean, I just wanted to be able to at least share. At least the background of that. As Carol mentioned, Neck River Elementary School does have an open cafe setting. There have been public information sessions there. The Planning and Zoning Commission has never had a meeting there. The capabilities of IT are not fully determined at this point. if the commission decides to vote to hold the meeting there, and there isn't time to do practice runs to do that either. The room is not available until 6.30, the evening of the meeting. So at 6.30 in the evening, 200 chairs would have to be assembled and IT would have to be made available so that the meeting could begin at 7 o'clock. That's new information to me too. I had to look for some of that information this afternoon after your request.

It became apparent that it was really Erin in favor of Zoom and me in favor of in person, and I didn't feel comfortable making the decision. I wanted to hear from the commissioners. What about the Senior Center?

Didn't we use that one time?

Again, Mike, just ask that too. Sorry. It's not going to give you a larger... I don't think it's big enough, actually. If you're looking to accommodate... I don't know how many people to anticipate in person. I know it would exceed the capacity of meeting room day.

The other thing for me too is that when everyone came out for the... You know, when we first opened the public hearing and then left, I said, we'll look for a bigger venue. And so I felt like, okay, I wanted to just... Make sure that everybody knows what the options are and what the pluses and minuses are of each one and make a decision if we can.

I agree with you. I think we should be in person. I think this was a very community. There's a lot of interest and a lot of feelings about it, and I think that we should. give the community an opportunity to come be heard together. And if we can make that happen, I think that we should. I guess that's a question.

I think the dynamics are very different.

Person, this is we're not talking about just an in person meeting. This is a hybrid meeting of what hybrid. Yeah, of course.

The opportunity for. In most folks. Right. So, frankly, I think everyone was in the room.

There's still some, there was a couple of. So, what are the possibilities? What are the rules on. Cost being here in public being online. Awesome. It's been here a hybrid hybrid.

If if the commission is meeting in person, then the public would need to be met in person unless there was a specific accommodation for. If you were, for example, as I explained to Carol, if there's limitations or needing a larger screen, you may attend here in person so that you have access to a screen. If you don't have that at your home. To participate remotely and again, we've had other hearings where a resident did not have access to a computer, something like that. We set them up. At a location where they were able to participate coming, coming out of the pandemic, the state.

Legislated how, you know, what the options are now post pandemic. Post zoom only and I think you do have to accommodate anyone who can't. Either doesn't have a computer or can't has, you know, I have some visual impairment. I have to. I can't see on my laptop. Plans when they're opened and zooming in sometimes I lose resolution and that can be done upon request.

So not that I would probably come here and use the big screen. But we can't have the public still struggling with why we can't make it.

Yeah, I would think. What about changing the meeting next door? Can they change the date for that?

That room is already reserved for another group. Your option, if you're looking to have a larger venue that's hybrid, the Neck River Elementary School is your only option.

So what is the AV setup that we have to do at Neck River?

That's something I have no experience doing at Neck River.

So here we have a camera. We have screens.

You have camera on the television. It's an independent. It's a cafeteria. So the IT department would have to set that up.

It depends whether they have that school or not.

They bring the things over.

I would offer that it's a brand-new building thing. That I would expect them to have sufficient capabilities to accommodate if they offer that room for such meetings. Just because we haven't done it for us. Yeah, we haven't done it. Have other groups used it?

The board of selection have used it for and they had a successful.

Hybrid sessions, it was a hybrid meeting.

You know, there are differences between the Planning and Zoning Commission and legal proceedings and having folks be able to be heard and produce transcripts for appeals and things of that nature. So there are unknowns, but, you know, appeals have not been generated. I don't know what the crowds are or how that sound will sound. The EOI Academy School meeting was a camera on the side and some projection screen. It doesn't give the attendees necessarily. It would be sort of this side screen. Few of that, and that was recorded so I don't, I think it was so we could go watch it. You can go watch it, but I'm saying there are unknowns that we have never staffed a meeting that way. As I said, there's after school care in that room until 630 every day. And so there are limitations on getting the room ready. Yeah. After 630, and I don't know who is available at the building through maintenance or it to get that room ready. That's not something that falls on your land. You staff to set up. That's moving, so if the commission chooses to move forward with a hybrid meeting, know that there's a caveat if the. Capabilities are not able to be met at that room. Then the meeting would.

Wouldn't be appropriate to be there at least a week to determine. A course of action. Are we able to communicate on this matter via email once we get some more information around the capabilities? Technically.

What information are you. Can we get I.T. there? Can we get this stuff? Can we go look at it?

Can the commission go and look at it during school hours? I don't know.

I also offered to go do practice runs with you.

I'm not able to do that during the day. The school is in session. We are not able to do that during the day. The room is used for the elementary school. and it is used by aftercare until 6 30. we have multiple meetings uh between now and that meeting i'm unable to go and do a practice run for the commission if some of the commission are able to do it at a time that works for the school is that acceptable That would have to be coordinated. I don't know that there's IT available or anyone to do that. I don't have the answer to that. What's your sense of the senior center capacity? I don't know the number of that, and I don't know if the room is available or not. But I wonder if that's worth pursuing, too, because it's true.

We had almost everybody. There might be more people coming next time. There might be fewer people.

Are we about to publish? We are unable to find an alternate location. Please note the public, the room can only accommodate X number first come, first serve.

And I was also asking if people could sit out in the hallways with their laptops even.

There are limitations to fire code and things like that. This is why this isn't typically a decision for the commission to make. This is typically logistics of staff trying to find a venue that could accommodate. So I don't have all of the answers for you as far as, you know, this room fits 68 people total. As you could probably imagine having more chairs, but that's only throwing some chairs. You run the risk of a hybrid meeting in this room that you cannot fit people. You cannot just bring couches in and things like that that occurred at the last meeting. When a room is... You know, the fire marshal and I've done this previously, setting up rooms, the fire marshal in here, measuring and making sure walkways are adequate. If hallways are full, the fire marshal will come down and shut the meeting down. It has happened before. He was here a week and a half ago, two weeks ago for the board of selectmen meeting. It isn't. So in planning ahead, these are risks that are taken. You may have IT challenges at a location that we have not had any experience with, which could impact potential customers. transcripts and legal proceedings if they happen to occur after a meeting or, you know, as I can only give you the information that we have, the physical challenges of staff trying to accommodate these rooms and what our attorney has recommended. If the commission wants to vote to pick a different room, I have no information on the senior center for you. I simply have a neck river as your option if you wanted to vote.

So I would offer. There are many opportunities for the public to come attend. Our meetings, and we cannot predict who will show up when and where so I think it's. Important for us to consider the future state of. Public hearings, and if this room can only accommodate a certain number of individuals. We should prepare for the maximum number to show up in this room. And perhaps in the future, we might need to consider alternate locations if this is. An option in front of us, and we have an opportunity to test. A location. such as the school, I think we should investigate that so that we are prepared for future public hearings. We're not untested and untried, and we have an understanding of what limitations are in terms of capacity and technology and what the experience for the public, as well as the participants and the applicants would be. I would offer adding additional chairs with consideration from the fire marshal on how could we set up this room in advance to accommodate additional audience members in anticipation of the Mill Road application. I think that should be our first option to look at. If not, then I would recommend we investigate Neck Road as an option or the senior center. My vote for an all-Zoom meeting would be the last option.

Anybody else?

Do we have time? It's a quick comment is that I wonder both these optics and the legality of an all-Zoom meeting. We haven't had anything else. So this time, just because we know this issue is coming up, we're treating it differently. That doesn't look very good to me.

That's a good point. I thought that during the pandemic, but the question where did the board of select committee relocate to?

They didn't need to relocate. There weren't enough people in the hallways. It was called in to look. And did they have extra rows of chairs? We set up a room in anticipation. This is something that is not unusual to staff. We constantly gauge the expectation of who will be at public meetings. And I think your staff in particular has gone above and beyond trying to accommodate the public and making documents and meetings as accessible as possible. We're probably the only commission that has run a dual meeting with Zoom access in another room, which happened during the Tremaine hearings. Yeah. People, it was angry. It was unruly. The police were here and the transcripts were not audible. And that makes a challenge when something is appealed. And quite frankly, it's an unnecessary burden on staff. without any other resources here to man two meeting rooms to try to accommodate that. The point of public accessibility is so that it's not necessarily to jam as many people in a room as you're able to Make a physical room, it's, it's creating opportunities for people to be able to participate in a meeting and hear clearly and the commission to be heard and to and to see. Yes. Visually you'll know you fill this room with 68 people. You have 1 screen. That is visible this screen does not screen share you. So these are things that you are all need to be considered. There's no more exploration of options in this room for.

Do you know how at our August meeting? Was it this set up for the rows of chairs? Yes.

Yes.

So you can fit one more row of chairs here.

That is only 30 and it says what?

68. Yeah.

You have to look at the size of the chairs and the furniture that we have in here. And that includes staff. in the commission as well. So although the number in capacity for the square footage for the room may be 68, you may not physically be able to fit 68 chairs in this room for people based on the furniture that is purchased here. They have arms on them. We do the best we can to limit the distance in between the seats and to maintain the emergency aisles. But you have a fixed amount of space here for the public. Got it.

Sure, I can't do a reservation.

Are we able to add, before this meeting, would we be able to add one more row of chairs?

We have chairs that we can set up. That's where you're looking to go. Know that if you have people in excess, they will be asked to leave the room. And if they're in the hallways, they have to maintain appropriate aisles, and they would be asked to participate remotely.

I feel like we haven't even heard this application. Okay. That's why I'm also leaning for just having it here, increasing it, putting it in as many chairs as we can, hoping for the best. See what happens, but the applicant could still present the application.

The worst piece is you have to continue the hearing because you can't.

Exactly. I don't have the answer for it, but I can't force.

What are you going to do with your so my perspective is we add another row. We can't predict who's going to show when or for whichever hearing we have on any given day. We have advanced warning on this 1. By chance. When when I walked into that, I had absolutely no idea we would have such a public response. It was incredibly surprising for me. So, I don't think on any given session, we can anticipate public attendance to that degree.

Make some kind of an announcement. Public hearing that, you know, I don't think the public is aware of how large this room is.

And they're going to clamor to get here if they want to attend. And if they get a seat, they get a seat. If not, I'm sorry. They stand in the hallway. And if they create a disturbance, they'll be asked to leave. That's just the nature of how we operate.

We really can't have them milling around on the back there with their nose against their ass, right?

Who's to say they didn't show up like that today? We would not have been prepared.

We weren't prepared.

I don't think there's any reason to explain.

And if they so choose, they can go sit in their car and join from their front.

We'll listen in line, take notes.

I think the best option is accommodate a safe amount of capacity in this room and we proceed as planned.

Well then, how about we have the fire marshal here or somebody here

I don't think I'd worry, but of course.

Prior preparation prevents problems. Karen, your thoughts?

I've already given my opinion.

I have no other opinions to give. Can we request a police officer be here to help with crowd control or the fire marshal?

Come and check. The fire marshal will, if the room is crowded, the fire marshal will show up. Sure. If people are overflowing in the room into the hallway, the fire marshal will be here to make sure there are no fire code violations. That's right. It's not a police officer role. Yeah. Okay, so I guess we could, but you have to know, as the chair. It's your responsibility to tell the attendees to this meeting how they will have to attend the meeting when there is if there is no room in this meeting room for them.

Yeah, and Aaron, is there any way to in advance? Not the night of when they arrive telling them this, but is there any way to get some notification out? Did we anticipate large for maximum capacity? I wouldn't even do that.

It's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Okay.

Let the public do what it says. I think one thing you could do is ask people once they speak and give their opinion and they've said their bit that they're going to have to leave and let someone else come in that needs to. And you can do it that way too that they can't sit through the whole thing and listen here. They can go to their cars or whatever and watch the rest of it, if you're going to have it in person. But I think, you know, I think we have to respect the staff. I mean, Aaron knows, and I think we're we do she's right, we do accommodate everyone on the same and let everyone speak and which I think is wonderful and we have to do that, but at the same time, we have to think about. Doing you know, being efficient to and if the best way to do it is through zoom you know I think I I personally think we need to respect the staff knows best. She sees meetings, she knows the fire, you know, she knows all this stuff and how much with the furniture, you know, we have to accommodate and setting up. I mean, when I heard that they're going to set up 200 chairs after the kids leave at 630 from after school and in elementary school where parents are picking up, I think that's a disaster waiting to happen. I think that's a really bad idea.

I don't think it's necessary. I think we have the means. to hold the appropriate session here as you normally do. And the public will be determined.

I think your tenure on the commission has not experienced a very busy public hearing, a contentious public hearing. So I think it will play out. And if that's the decision that the commission would like to vote on, that's what Carol has brought to the floor.

So we give it a try. That's up to the commission's decision at this point. Janet and John, you might be in favor of Zoom.

I would vote for Zoom, yeah.

Do you want to have a formal vote on this? Yeah.

Yeah. So how about first raise your hand if you're willing to try the hybrid as usual.

At this location. At this location. I'm sorry. This is true. It's a struggle. It's a struggle. It's a struggle.

If we want a formal Robert's Rules, could I have a motion that we have the meeting as scheduled as a hybrid in this room? I provide a motion.

So moved.

Second. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? And that was John Dusa, second? Yes. And who was opposed? Opposed is John Morgan and Janet Peckinpah.

Jim, are we clear on the options are hybrid here, additional seating, carry on, or fully Zoomed?

Because Aaron said you weren't here during the Tremaine hearings. I mean, it can get pretty full.

Janet, that was something else.

Wow. I just remember going over to the other room and talking to people who were waiting and them complaining to me because they couldn't be heard. We were here for three hours and we're not allowed to speak. It got pretty heated.

Carol, I think you did a great job this morning at the top of this session instructing the audience about the comments. If you agree with someone... Keep your comment. I think that was a lot.

And also, we have a large number that will limit the time for questions and comments. Yeah. Just state that up front. You have a minute. Get it all up front. And that, I think, will help. Yeah.

That was an entire for each person or for each person? For each person.

And there's a time where one of these is not being timed.

And people stop. Handle it as best we can. It won't work well.

Okay. All right. Thanks, everybody. The options. Next on the. Erin, did you want to say anything further about 26-29? No. Okay. 26-30, 128 Sampson Rock Drive. This is a site plan and a major downtown village district alteration to install a standalone unmanned redemption center in the existing parking lot. We already have the public hearing scheduled for October 1st.

Yes. Wait, what is a redemption center? Is this talking religious?

Throw your clothes. The application materials are in there for review.

But there is, you can see, yeah, just right next is approval of minutes secretary.

The August 20th, 2026 minutes. Janet, you were asked, correct? I was absent motion to review and approve the minutes. 2nd. I just had a couple of minor wording changes. There was on page five, improved, needed to be changed to improved. And on page six, they were talking about the golf balls on the course, just changing, install warning of flying golf balls instead of fly golf balls. Not really cool golf balls. Sunlight. Anybody else have any changes?

No changes, but it was a long meeting. This is a question of words. I'm looking for something.

Great chance. Don't you approve? Motion to approve. Second. All in favor?

Thank you.

Thank you, Erin, for these good minutes. Yes. Okay. A couple of remarks. Erin and I have been planning a couple of events that you know about. One is an informal session at the Surf Club of all land use-related agencies. Commissioners, commission, committee members, the invite's about to go out, Erin.

Yep, we'll send it out probably. I was waiting for another flyer to have some final text. So if not tomorrow, it'll go up Tuesday. It's really kind of more of a gathering for land use related boards and commissions.

For us to meet each other, get to know each other, find out. And Google.

Completely optional. Just to kind of. You may have food, but not enough food to keep you to stay too long. Thanks. When's the date? I'm strong feel that I'm going to be itching. So it should go. I think we said five to seven. Yeah. There are five to like six forty five. I think sunset sunset sunset and go. But it's really interesting. You know, not a venue to be taking notes and things like that. It's really kind of to put a face to these various boards and committees who are advisory or looking to move forward their charges, understand what other committees' charges are, things like that, see how they all kind of play a role in Some of the goals and actions of the, and the strategic plan kind of grease the skids for warming them all up to give some feedback. To the commission on October 1st, we're hoping that commission members are available from 6 to 7 to the meeting, but early. to come an hour earlier to allow for a regulation, informal, not informal, a listening session, excuse me, before the full commission. It's a regular meeting date and you have regular business that starts at seven, but what we're hoping to do is have a listening session that will be available in room C and via Zoom to allow the public We're going to put something in the paper as well and get this flyer out posted for everybody in advance so they know. But there are people who would like to give some feedback on recommended changes to the zoning regulations. Also want to kind of understand the project itself. What is within the realm of this project and capabilities and what the commission cannot do. So your consultant will be ready to kind of guide that. Discussion, maybe queue up some good questions for the public to get them thinking and. Allow for that hour of some feedback and then move over here into roommate for your regular meeting. And then, you know, based off of that meeting, see if there's a need for additional. Feedback sessions, things like that more focused groups that that kind of thing.

Sorry sorry when when was the date of this meeting for all the land use? I didn't hear the dates. That was September 24th. Oh, soon.

September 24th.

And the time was 5?

5 it starts? 6.37, something like that.

About an hour and a half. Sorry, I didn't hear the date. It's not mandatory, but it would be great.

It would be nice to go and meet everybody.

Yeah, I don't know how many folks from the various boards and committees will come. I suspect at least one or two from them can come. But, you know, you've got land use related boards like ZBA or Inland Wetlands and, you know, I'm not sure how much. Since their charge is a little specific, I'm not sure how much of that. That's good. Those are the 2 dates I would, it would be very helpful for staff. If anyone has a conflict getting to the 10, 1 meeting at 6 o'clock. To let me know, I just want to make sure that at least we have the majority of the commission here to be able to hear from the public. And again, that's in person or zoom, whichever works if you, you know, if you're not able to physically get here by 6 o'clock, if you're able to hop on remotely before the regular meeting, that's fine as well.

Yeah, just a listening session.

Yeah, it's a brief overview of the project by our consultant and then listening to members of the public and any other group who would like to share some feedback. Mostly listening.

It's not going to be a conversation.

I think it kind of depends on who shows up. If you have a large group and you need to hear from a lot of people, if it's a smaller group, yes, we encourage interactive conversations here with that. It's not a form of public hearing or anything like that. It's really a chance to start

hearing from people and to hear the conversation about what is entailed in regulation updates and revisions and things okay so yeah but because it is an hour it's not going to be a long presentation it's really just kind of a brief introduction and then letting everybody talk sure i think it sounds great it's a long calendar question on the the uh surf club thing is that considered a meeting

It's, I mean, we'll notice it as a gathering. It's not, yeah, it's not a, it's a multi-group workshop. It's not anything, it's not meant to be boards and commissions giving specific feedback to specific members of the commission. That's what the October 1st meeting is for the regulations. This is really just to kind of hear from folks.

I just want to say the draft that you have of the email to send out was great, I thought. It just sets the tone of what it's going to be like and what the expectations should be for people coming. So I think as we get more information out there, it'll be...

I'll put all of you... Is it general public invite?

Of course, it's a public meeting.

It's the intent of the surf club.

Yes, the public can attend. It is not meant to be a public interaction. It's a meeting designed to allow for various committee members to interact and have conversation. Okay. That's the intent of it.

Great, thanks. I have a motion to adjourn. I have a motion to adjourn.

I've got a second, third, fourth, and fifth. I think it's got an on figure. I'll adjourn at 8.42.

Thanks, Janet. Thank you. Sorry, I ditched last minute there. Sorry. Grace.

Yeah.

Thank you, Aaron, for explaining all.