Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, welcome everyone. I'd like to call to order this Thursday, April 2nd, 2026 meeting of the planning and zoning Madison Planning and Zoning Commission. Present tonight we have Secretary John Morgan, Mike Bugda, myself, Carol Snow, chair, Bob O' Conor, Michelle Clark, and voice John Dooa, and via Zoom. We have Janet Peekenpaw. Um, absent are Jeff DS, Andy Rubin, and Max Coro, Michelle Clark or I'd like to see you in place of Thanks. And that said, we jump right into the agenda. And our first item is the pending application 26 26-767 Middle Beach Road map 16 lot 86 zone R4 owner applicant Scott and Jame. This is a coastal site plan application for the replacement of existing concrete bulkhead cap maintenance of existing stone and concrete flooring and replacement of existing wooden groin. I invite the applicant to come forward.

Yes. Thank you. Where should I set up once the commission have a preference? You have paper. So, I can screen share for you too, Dave, for Oh, yeah. We can attend. Yeah, whatever. Whatever is most convenient. Site plan. Yeah. Yeah. It's really just the site plan. Um, so you can set up both. Yeah. Okay. We can do that. Yeah. Okay. In the middle there. Okay. Thank you. All right. You can see we're wait.

Thank you. I think maybe just the the first the first sheet will be helpful. I have some some photos and then the site plans to plan. Um so I am David Preventure. My company Shore Design uh was hired by by the owners of of this property. Uh so 67 Middle Beach Road uh it's the principal property on the north side of the road and then the associated waterfront lot is across the street and it's undeveloped other than waterfront infrastructure. So we were brought on uh there were some inrogress work started to the waterfront um and there was some proposed activities that they wanted to do. So they hired us to design everything and then obtain the necessary coastal permits from from deep from the New England Army Corp of Engineers and and from the town of Madison. So just to give you some um quick walk through of the site. So um so here it is here. Uh and so top photo is is looking east. So, there's a uh historic stonemasonry bulkhead uh along the the waterfronts and here and there's there's several groins. I've heard you all talking about them before and I I can I can uh describe what those are sort of in the practical sense. And then uh there happen to be several of them along the waterfront here. And then looking west on the bottom photo um very lot. So, so there's several groins. Um, so here's this top one is a is a wooden groin. And all a groin is is just a wall that's perpendicular to the shoreline. So, its job is to stop is is to trap sediment and it actually protects the

the shoreline infrastructure by by building up the sediment. So, this old wooden groin was actually permitted a long time ago by the state. So, it's actually a permit on file for this. Um, so as we look over here at the western end of the property, another groin that's stone with a concrete cap. And here's a here's a closeup of that of that western stone groin. Um, and one of the activities that was started was building these concrete stairway because there was no means for the homeowners to actually get down to the water prior to that. And then there's just some more detail of that of that western going.

You got I've got a screen sharing for Zoom.

Great. Great. Uh so here's here's the existing site plan. So just to give you some some some barracks here. So here's that here's that um that large stone drawing with with a concrete cap. And then and then here's here's that concrete stair on the top of the growing coming down. So prior to that stair being there, there was no way for them to to safely get down to the waterfront. Um over here, this is this is an old drawing here. Um pre pre3 hurricane. Um no work is being proposed to that. It's really it's flattened out. There's it's not serving a huge purpose. But then this this this long wooden groin has fallen into disrepair. So part of the focus of the project is to rebuild that. So um I'd say the primary focus of the project is is to recap the the existing bulkhead. So that work was started. Um it was soft once the homeowner uh was informed that permits were needed for this work. So we went ahead got permits from deep from the the army core obviously here before you tonight coastal site plan approval. Um so it's it's the vault that cat running the length here. Uh just some just some in in footprint repair to that to that stone and concrete groin and then removing that the entirety of that whole wooden groin and then shortening it both in length and in height. So here's just a profile of of our of our existing concrete stairway that is

now legal through deep in the Army Corps. um raising raising the existing bulkhead um actually to to complete the work with that bulkhead cap. And then you can see sort of the the profile of the wooden groin down here going from what are we 90 almost 100 ft long down to 56 ft long. And so variable profile so people can step over it they're walking along the shoreline. So that's that's the project um as concisely as I can make it. Happy to answer questions. I have a couple questions. Sure. Um

can you explain the tongue and groove uh wall construction of the wood groin? Yes, sure. So in terms of how it works and what it looks like and how thick it like dimensionally.

Yeah. So dimensionally it's about 3 to 4 in thick. So this is marine grade um pressuret treated tongue and groove she cheat sheeting. So what they'll do is it's it's basically three three components. So the so the timber piles here are the vertical component um that really anchor everything in and you'll get the most depth from that and then vertically you'll have some some framing. the whales that sort of run um horizontally and then you'll have the sheeting that's actually doing the all the work by by trapping the sediment. What is it? All all the wood marine grade pressuret treated wood.

Yes. And so how deep does that go into the sand? So you know it it depends. I think this is pretty pretty rocky and sandy here. So um it's probably only going down maybe 4 ft. Not very deep here. Uh the piles will probably go down deep. So it's below Washington. Sure. Yeah. But this is um below the high tide line, correct? It is. Yeah. So So the face of the bulkhead. Yeah. The seaw wall is Yeah. So mean high water high tide line coalition line hits the Yeah. Yeah. Um the only tide line that's off the wall is being low.

Bean low. Yeah. line here. So, me and Lo is out here and the um the outermost um post or pile. How tall is that? So, we are out here. It's actually going to be lower than the top of the bulkhead. Oh, that that's there now. But so, we're we're at this level here. So, Oh, lower than the top of this seaw wall. Yes. But sticking up. Yeah. So, it's it's going to serve as a navigation marker. I was wondering, by the way, and I hate the old wooden groins that are, you know, they're dangerous.

They are. And and the owners are super concerned about that. So, even during like high tide, if you're swimming, Yeah. if there's some obstructions, you don't see them. You won't see it. And and there's so many paddle boarders these days, too, that um Yeah. easy to get hung up on. So, we did this design a little uniquely in that normally there's just one marker pile out at the end. Here we actually um are doing intermittent files all along the length. So, you'll see that. So, exact. So, even at night you'll know that there's a length. Exactly. And then my bigger question is do you really need that?

Yeah. You know, of course, do we need anything? Right. um in terms of the currents and the sand movement, you know, it's Yeah. And um so so here it's always been my experience that um your your best defense is mother nature and so the more material that you can build up against the shoreline um the better protected it's going to be. So here without these groins, the the wave action is just going to scour out the base of the of the seaw wall or the bulkhead and could undermine it. I mean, you've got the two other stone groins and then even I think a third one on the next property the east. Yeah. So, this Yeah, that's a great

Yeah. So, this is this is just sort of like a a pile of rocks, not doing anything. Um this this growing here is is really abandoned. We're not proposing to do any work to that and it's not it's not even permitted. Um it's just been there Yeah. for almost 100 years. Um, so this big guy at the western end is doing a lot of work. Um, so basically we're ignoring that this is doing any function, but this this groin itself once it's once it's shortened and rebuilt, it's going to just stabilize it. We're not building up a lot of material here. Really just keeping the sand level stable

so that there's there's less chance of it being scoured out at the base. So, so you mentioned you want 1938. So, if there was a storm like that again, what would the impact be on these structures built to withstand something like that? These are all historic structures that that you know they're doing their best to work within their existing footprints, you know. So, um it's it's it's very hard to plan and design for something that's going to withstand the worst storm. So, you so you do it for what's practical within budget. And um if you tried to do that these things would be cost injury. Um it's it's

so obviously this you know the bulkhead has has withtood you know u the hurricane and then through all the storms since you know it's been maintained. Um these groins have gone in and out of disrepair and that's normal for coastal structures. It's a lot of maintenance. Is there a significance to the distance between the original uh stone groin to the left and the replacement groin to the right in between that little one that we're ignoring and possibly what Carol was referring to on the other side?

Um so a lot some along some stretches of of shoreline there's actually growing fields that are designed you know to to occur in you know in certain distances. Um, this is not part of a design growing, but typically if you have multiple groins along a length of shoreline, they'll they'll they'll act together. So, they'll they'll work in pockets to to create, you know, so if you if you put a groin way over here and not here, there would be more um bulkhead exposed potential scout. So, sometimes the closer they are,

I think even in your view to the west, you can see another dilapidated. Sure. Yeah. Um where I'm from know maybe it was city east. Yeah. East. Or both. Maybe. Yeah. They're all along the road. So yeah, there's there's a wooden groin way over here. Yeah. There's some dead rock there. Um there's a Oh, yeah. No, you can see it to the west. There's one there's there's a groin there. I don't think that's been rebuilt yet. Yeah, I don't think it has. So, but at at some point Yeah. These when these were built, you know, they they were acting more like an informal growing field.

And do you have any sense of how long this one will last just terms of like life? For this type of material is, you know, could be 30 40 years. Um, yeah. I mean, this one was permitted I want to say I think it was 67 or Yeah, I was going to say 50s or 60s. 67. So, um, and I think it's it's been in a state of disrepair for probably 10, 15 years. So, there's the math, you know, pretty much. And what how does the jurisdiction of this work? Because when you're out in the water, you're not property anymore, right? Yeah.

So, what rights do you have? How does that work? So, so the private property ownership ends at at a mean high water. So, in that case, it, you know, pretty much runs along the face of the ball head there. So, then beyond that, it's public public lands held in trust by the state, right? Um, but the the rights of so a a waterfront property has inherent rights to to warf out or to have access into public lands. Uh okay. Okay. So, um and the state recognizes that. So, now they're actually calling instead of permits, they're calling them licenses.

So, they give you a license to maintain build a structure on a public plane. The owner shadows. Yes. But you're making it so that at low tide the public can walk across it

at at low tide. So, um, they take a practical approach to these more historic properties. So, anytime you modify a structure, which is what we're doing to that groin, they they're going to want to see, can can the public get over it. Um, with with with this groin here, we're not modifying it. We're just sort of maintaining it. So, they didn't require us to build in Yeah. But say for some reason this was destroyed and the owners wanted to rebuild it, the state would require them to to design in public access over through something like that. Good.

Other questions? Janet, any questions? All right. Um, good. I I you know those are and some they're somewhat grandfathered in too, aren't they? I mean they are they survived that are a gain of 38 and then they've been rebuilt maybe a couple times so they're existing. They are. Yeah. So not within our jurisdiction

as educational as it is the public we want to use. It is not within the commission's perview if you permit or kaying rights. All right. Well, I think um we could have a motion approve and we Aaron drafted some notes and also a draft resolution. So, you want to read the presentation? Thanks for the presentation. Very welcome. Not many pages.

No, don't read the whole notes. The Madison Planning and Zoning Commission approves application number 26-7 26-7 67 Middle Beach Road map 16 Law 86 zone R-4 owner applicants Scott and Jane Amber postal site plan application for the replacement of existing concrete bulkhead cap maintenance of existing stone and concrete drawing and replacement of existing wooden groin as shown in application documents prepared by Shore Design LLC with the following conditions. Number one, that the zoning enforcement officer be notified at least 48 hours prior to commencement of any regulated activity. Number two, any areas temporarily disturbed during installation activities following restored to their condition prior to commencement of work. In the event that such in the event that changes to the approved plans are required as a result of other agency committing to support those activity, the man mass planning and zoning commission reserves the right to review said changes and may require modification of this approval. The commission finds that with the amount of reference condition the proposal is consistent with all applicable goals and policies in the coastal management act section 25 of the mass dunction regulations. No anticipated in fact resources are expected effective date of this proposal this approval is April 16th 2026 all in favor. Thank you. Thanks again.

Thank you very much for your time. Thanks. All right. Next on our agenda is our zoning code update. Um discussion of the adoption of reorganized regulations scheduled for scheduled ripple hearing for May 7th and discuss statutory changes as they relate to future zoning regulation updates. Our consultant here. Could you introduce yourself please?

Yes. Thank you for having me. My name is Mike Tomato with planning and policy group and we are uh have been and will continue to work with um you folks and staff uh on the zoning rag updates that were sort of in some ways kicking off I guess tonight. Um there's a couple of things that we wanted to talk about and go over and I'm just going to frame this stuff up so I have it on me as well. So, one of the things that um we sort of landed on as as becoming a part of the initial the start to this project is um basically codifying your zoning regulations so that they are uh incorporated into the the entire body of the town's code online just like ordinances, charter, etc. There's a lot of reasons for doing that. Um, and so before we got started with a wholesale review and and uh proposal to make amendments, we thought it made sense to take the current set of regulations, get them codified, um, go through the whole process with the town's um, vendor for that and and essentially create the initial snapshot of this project as being your current regulations. so that there are online records and and all the corresponding information sort of tracks how we've made those changes. So, um that is normally a a fairly straightforward process. We've done it in several other towns at the start of a zoning rack project and um it was a little bit more challenging here just because you sort of have a couple different subsets of the rags. you have books and appendices and all kinds of stuff. I think I called it an anthology. Um, so figuring out how to get it all into one cohesive document so that we could apply a single organizational

structure from start to finish was a bit of a a challenge. Um, but a couple of months ago, we presented to you uh an anticipated table of contents to show you how we were going to reorganize everything and just sort of put it all together but keep the same content so that it it made sense and and we could sort of create that that level set to go forward. So, uh, since that time, we have been doing that work, working with Aaron. We've submitted a couple of of um portions of the rags to general code for their review to to make sure that we're on the right track. Um

Michael, excuse me. I'm sorry if I interrupt you. Can you explain what general code is for everybody?

Yes. So um general code uh most people are familiar with them because they are the ones that generate the the building codes and fire code doc the documents used all across the country. They uh also do um codification or they are known as codifiers. So if you go to a town website and you'll see you know that their regulations are in some sort of web viewer where everything is hyperl and it's sort of its own sort of program software if you will. They do that, but but there's a sort of a um a freedom of information and recordkeeping side to that as well where they basically analyze your documents, ensure that you have everything organized correctly, ensure that you don't have uh conflicting ordinances and regulations, make sure that you're not referencing laws and acts that were eliminated 20 years ago. Um and every time you make an amendment, they create supplements to those documents. And so the town clerk and Aaron will have sort of the original authoritative paper versions of these books. Um so that there's true records of when amendments are made, what the revision dates those amendments are um which was you know here you guys have every revision date in your regs from when the paper was invented. So um their work will be cut out for them. But it it creates a a situation where it's there's a very methodical approach to how regulations are treated just like we would with ordinances. Um so so we we looked at your current regulations and their content and we put together a proposed table of contents which you you saw previously which was again that that reorganization and then we we've gone through and the PDF that you all have is the current regulations placed in that format. There have been some changes to the proposed table of contents predominantly because of

guidance from general code to make sure that when we cite things their recommended format is followed across the board. One of the things that we found here is that you had a lot of notes and sort of sentences that were sort of blowing in the breeze. They're just maybe underneath a table or they're on another page, but they're not it's there's no letter or number or Roman numeral assigned to them, which then makes it hard to site. And so we had to make sure for better or for worse with the existing content that you have that every piece of criteria in your writ has something that we could site to some section 6.4 4C or Roman numeral I within article 2 subsection whatever.

Um so everything has a home. Everything has a home. Yes. identifier.

Correct. So um the document once you get it online will will everything is hyperlink. So so if you're looking at a specific line in the regulations or someone has a question you can click at click on it. It'll generate a hyperlink can download that section. Aaron can email the hyperlink to an applicant and when they click on it, it'll take them right to that page, it's all indexed and searched. Um, so we need to make sure everything was captured so that when they go through the process, it it's formatted correctly. Um, so the the purpose of tonight from an action standpoint is is to, you know, get high level feedback from you folks on your thoughts about the document. There shouldn't hopefully be too much because it's your current regulations with no changes. But um in order for the reorg to start, we need to get it to general code. So we we want to run this as a text amendment because we are changing the sections. Um and then once that process gets handed off and they've done that that codification, we will then use the document online as the basis for all of the revisions going forward. Um so that as you'll see and and Aaron has a you can see in the sections one of the things that we've tried to track and I had to um this is the first word or code document that I've dealt with that was a a macro enabled word document which created a lot of fun gymnastics that we had to do to make this work. So I created this manually so it didn't pull all of it but you'll see in some of them like under four article D four it says residence districts and then it says formerly section 3. So in the titles we have included the former section number and so the the reason we've done that is because when this goes online has every time you update your regs they will archive the old code and it will be accessible online general code. So by

creating this snapshot with the new and the old and the titans, we're sort of creating that breadcrumb trail. So going back, if you have to look in the regulations 10 years from now, um when you're all still here, I'm sure um working uh on zoning regs, um you'll be able to say, okay, this was section six, which is why the reference in that those minutes is to section 6.8. So we're we're trying to make sure that we're not scratching our heads down the road wondering what was,

right? So, as you go through the document, see in those headings, if there was a section number that existed for that content, we've we've moved it over. So, we didn't kind of look for both. Um the the titles have largely remained the same unless there was again content that had no title and then we've used the content to just create something. Um but there are no substantive changes, no deletions. We have not changed any regulatory language or requirements or eliminated anything. Um so there's there is really just a uh an organizational amendment at this point

and at this point we don't worry about formatting and um no so we will go through and and we will take care of all of that. We we didn't want to change the document too much so we had to kind of work with what was there. So A, B, and C might now be one, two, three. But if there were four subsections, we didn't say, "Oh, we think it should be one combined." So I told your license. Yeah. We we kept we we will do that when we go section by section because there's a lot of stuff in here that we want to address and move and that we don't um feel makes sense in the way it is, but we got to kind of work with what we have.

So this will get revised as we work on the sections. Yes, exactly. So, so once we create this snapshot and the code goes online, we will then start running through it and if we get to a place where we want to move this down or we want to combine or eliminate at that point, we will do that and then we will hand those red lines to general code and they will codify the amendments. But because this is archived, your original document will always be there and you know you and staff can just go right back in and say, "I want to see what that code said." and you flip right back to it. So, the comparison will be online and I think that's really important when we're doing substantial revisions to be able to see what this section said at this time, particularly with non-conformities and all that stuff. Um, so that's the the nuts and bolts of of what this is. Um

the only other thing that I'll mention while I'm still rambling is that you know we have the appendices we have um all all the the books and I don't remember what they're all called but as you'll see here they are all now in one single PDF they're referenced as the zoning regulations. So we don't have books we don't have any of these other categories. Yeah. So you'll see that we pulled it in. Um, appendix A which was designed guidelines downtown is now included in that zone is not a separate document. Uh, and the rural shopping district was appendix B. Yes.

In the regulations and those were always shown in the document as insert here. Yeah, insert they were never there and there's nothing. Ironically, some aren't even the rural isn't even online point with them. Um, so those the text of those are now currently inserted in here. If there are changes that need to be made to those in the future, those can be, but they all have a home. The only thing we pulled out from the the physical text was our former section 4B, which um all the special

is 8.7. That's all of the spot zoning um special exception zones that are meets and bounds uh described. So the you'll note that that is shown as an appendix here. Um uh uh but yeah there's there's really no that's the last page. Yeah, we agonized over that and there is no good way to deal with that section.

I know it's a nightmare. It is it is going to require a lot of of sort of mental gymnastics to figure out how to deal with that so that you know you're not left with regs that are really bad and sort of you guys get the short end of the stick or something that is really easy to put into the rags but creates a lot of problems for the people that are the recipients of those current zones. So, we're going to have to figure something out with that. And it it did not make sense to capture them in some different way and try to reorganize. It's like there's 35 of them or something. Yes.

Um so it's it's dozens and dozens of pages. So we decided because we knew we were going to have to really rethink that whole thing to just stick that in there as is to not not create more confusion. That is um that was a challenge and not to confuse with section four which is the special formally the spe special exception section on procedures and um you know application to make special exception. So I think I think attorney Shansky once referred to the all those other special exceptions as vestigial

that one surprised me but it it is it's a problem. It's not consistent with statutes to have spot zoning in that manner. It's something that, you know, has occurred in the town and like Mike said, we're going to have to deal with, but it was better. So, those you'll see in the appendix will refer to their existing section numbers. We did not go through and renumber those. Um, it just seemed it wasn't not worth the effort to do so. We would we would have to that would be like not a renumbering. It would be a policy change. We would have to sit here and figure out how are we going to tackle this and what makes the most sense and be very cautious that we're not creating disrupt unintended consequences for the property owners. So we can't do that and still build this as a reorganization of the same content. So um we we left it as is. The other thing that that um is is very prevalent in your current document is it you know it references other sections right so you're reading this sentence and it references two other sections in this you know in this uh chapter or whatever. So when the code goes online those will be hyperl directly and you'll be able to hover over that click on it it'll take you to that section. So those references have also been updated so that when they go through and capture it, they will reference the correct section and all that stuff will work together and then be updated as we go. Um, so it should make the code a little bit easier to use because again people won't have to be kind of going through and figuring out where things are. Um,

and Mike, just to speak to the three books that we had, um, the zoning regulations being the first, the second, the subdivision code, and the third were the, uh, storm water and, uh, sedimentation and erosion control uh, regulations. So, book three, the storm water and sedimentation erosion control measures have been incorporated into the zoning regulations. the subdivision code does not get incorporated into um because even though you're a combined commission, you work under two separate statutes. So um as planning commissioners, you will always have a separate subdivision regulation and we have not brought that before you. We did not do any reorganization. It's a small document and um actually lined up that can be merged into um the system and you you are um including the subdivision regulations in your update as necessary if there are changes but um we did not need to organize that to get started.

I I don't I don't want to overpromise but it's it it's on general code so I feel less bad about it. I do think that if we link if you reference a subdivision section in the zoning code, you know, say blah blah blah shall be in accordance with this. I do think that because they're codifying this the subdivision rags that will linking will still happen. Yes.

But you know, the ability to undo or modify a subdivision rag is not handled by the CPA. And so it gets very complicated to have different documents with different authorities and different regulatory you know requirements on the front end and the back end in the same code particularly when you have overlap on some content etc. So um it's something that comes up often is there a way to integrate and it it makes it a little bit challenging but with the linking it'll still create that same level of usefulness when you're interacting. I had the urge to stick some division scenario. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's all the same stuff, you know. Um, put it in there.

Yeah. I also want to say, Mike, that my bleak reaction to this too is if we could I don't know if it's going to be possible as we start organizing and doing provisions further. Um, but instead of having the articles be letters, have them be numbers and then have everything within that article start with that number. So, um, if that's going to be possible, just to help our brains. Yeah. We, um, that is how we started. That is that is the original document that we gave to you. And the way that we originally envisioned this was that the articles would have Roman numeral.

Yeah. and you know because yeah I think that's how we kind of tend to think about things and articles and chapters etc. Um chapter one you know section 3 whatever the problem is the way that your current content is structured unless we really rethink the whole organization you wind up with several articles that have the same number as the section. So you end up with article 4, section four. And so when you start when you when you go to site the section, you create a lot of repetitive numbers. So if you had, you know, article 4, section 4, subsection B4, it just gets a little bit harder to keep that separation. So by going letter number, it it makes it easier to distinguish. So some of them

I'm not convinced. I'm looking you're not convinced. I think I also we'll look you can pull up the the table of contents. Well, we can look at it here. No. Yeah, I have looked at it here. Yeah. Yeah. So, so article one starts with section one, right? And then two. Then you get uh four is a little bit better because you have multiple um numbers in it. So after four, article five starts with section six. So then it it shifts um and then it I I think it then comes back or because of it's just the way that the the document content I guess is organized, right? So that's that's I just wonder as we as we move forward if

I think the other thing that you're going to look at is when this is online and is codified with the other codes that the town has. This will be assigned the zoning regulations will be assigned a chapter essentially. Yes. Um and I I can show you kind of an example of that. I I did pull up uh Vernon Vernon's fine, right? As an example of that um

to uh let's see here. So this is what an online codification would look like where likely in um so this is the company. This is um you know we would expect to see ordinance uh you know town charter ordinances and then as you know and they have them broken out as part one part two are where all of the regulations and so this is very similar. We're townwide we're codifying the zoning regulations the subdivision rags inland wetlands are moving over historic district and our aquafer protection rags. So it would be similar to this where the regulations themselves would be assigned a chapter within

the the code and then when you click on them um you'll you'll see an article but really only here when you're referencing a section in the regulations you're going to reference section numbers um not necessarily the article. So the article is like the overarching chapter I guess, but when someone is seeking a a special exception pursuant to section blah blah blah, it would be pursuant to these section numbers or seeking a variance pursuant to it. So you wouldn't we're not using the articles all that in this example which we looked at

also you know it's article one and then under that just ignore the chapter 30 but it's one point this one point you know all the way down to 1.11

yeah decimals. So theirs are all one point because we just did just just did this with them and their regs are a little bit better organized but the content is probably scarier and they do it with the decimal so everything kind of just goes sort of down all the way through but they don't have the overall organization didn't didn't lend itself to creating any of that that that overlap because like I said I can pull up the the year. But I see also they had Vernon had subdivision regulations as another chapter.

Yeah. And so this 30 you will get a chapter over here and you know you can essentially choose what you want that to be but like can you just scroll through some of the actual page like can you scroll down here? Yeah. To just in to the section that Okay. Pick on pick enforcement. Click on the click on enforcement. Okay. So, um, let me see. Oh, these aren't going to trying to think about a way for it to pull the actual number. Close this one out. I I struck out. Um, oh, I have you want to do a different

pick like A or B. Pick like a subsection. It should be there. Unless Yeah. So, see, you are sharing 30-1.1A. That's the section. So it it it will never it will never um reference it will never say or see an article again. Um because really that's just a way to sort of organize things thematically. We could eliminate the articles alto together if you want. Um but the idea would be what we've done in a lot of places is oh you're interested in residential district requirements. You need articles three right? You you need whatever article six is this. She said I'd rather have it be a double letter.

Yeah. I think like I said that the challenge becomes article six section six that that that's all for me. Why general challenge to move that creates it creates confusion because at some points the articles and the chapters all align and other points they don't. And so you're asking a lay person to understand the term article means something different than the term section. And there's a very simple solution which is to just replace it with something else. Right? So general code's guidance was should have everything be different. It should be letter, it should be number, Roman numeral, whatever. So that every time you drop down a level, it switches to what it is.

I get that from old outlining classes. Yeah. Still the constitution would have been clearer if they didn't give numbers exactly the articles. That's exactly that's ridiculous to be honest. But okay, put it this way. You can show me some love to see that. Thank you. If you go beyond 26, that's that's if you go beyond 26. So you run out of letters. Yeah. No intentions of doing that. Weren't you looking to go backwards towards the 1950s size regulations? Well, you're gone the wrong direction. We um what about Z? I I help us. There are a lot of towns that have double AB. They just go to that.

So the the good news is we're doing the reorg with the existing content. If after that goes live, we start working through the document, you are still in a place where you're like, I I cannot stand these these these articles, we have the ability to change. I'm fairly certain you're going to forget about it because nobody sees the articles, but we can change it. you're not having to make that decision right now. For those of us who like to download them as PDFs and then we can search the PDF, you know, we're going to see some of that. Good.

So, yeah, I mean, how am I going to navigate these different do all that on on on online as well and it'll return all your results. Yes, you can download all the PDFs. It's going to give you the chapter in the section. It's going to give you to you in a in a word document. I don't know if you've if you've shown them that, but how that works. You still have it up, but Sure. Yeah, the the article um we we do ultimately have the ability to make those changes if you still feel like it's creating sort of a well it'll be great to see it as we as we progress what yeah and see where is it whats we can we we are very flexible but if you

where's the it's usually over to the right so like check scroll up to the top here with all those sections referenced and click click on a couple of them. Check the boxes, you know, say I want these two. Boom. So now you have the options at the top to print, email, download. So you can download all of that just a section and you can either do it as a word or Yeah, you can enable that. And so the the nice part about this is that it will format correctly in into Word in a PDF. So you're not just downloading. It's not like you're printing from your computer. And I guess it went to your download. Oh, you can't see it.

Yeah. So, they they don't allow members of the public to download uh Word unless you want that to be an option, but they can create accounts for all of you. And you can go in and do any of those things, but we shouldn't be allowed to change anything. Well, you can be downloading your own version. You can't do anything with this one. Good. You can make notes on documents. You can you can do all kinds of of things for yourself. You can subscribe to changes. You can also search for particular words within the entire code and it will highlight throughout the online document which is more friendly to use online than a PDF because pull up

it'll tell you every section that the word is used and where it has an index so you can say I want to see where the term family is used and it will tell you all the pages of the document where that word is used. So they index all the terminology. Um, you'll also have access to multicode. So, they will give you access to search all of their codes in the country. So, you can go in and say, I want to see definitions for the term family on every every code that they have in the country on communities of under 100,000 people or I want to see whatever you can search all of their entire body of code, definitions, language. Make Scrog obsolete

the zoning code library. It also well yeah I mean it's not necessarily Connecticut or you know because not every municipality uses you can filter by by population by state by all kinds of of things and they have 60 towns in Connecticut maybe. So you can search all of those things. Um nice and and with a click of a button you could say okay here's 10 towns in Connecticut that have already have definitions for or regulations pertaining to chickens. We don't have to you know research and Google. So there's a lot of functionality there. And Mike, we also have the opportunity to um scan, you know, so we have decades of paper copies of zoning codes and we can scan those and upload our own documents. So that

would be great. Within this code, there will be uh a folder where folks can go through and look at all of your historic regulations. So they'll literally be in one place since adoption. Yeah. Um, so it's a nice nice place to have everything. Um, yeah, it

sort of professionalizes the whole amendment process and make sure that you have things filed with the clerk and that you have an official copy and that the right sections get inserted where they belong and that everybody has the same code and you, you know, they will track all the effective dates as I mentioned. So, it it it really is is useful um and creates a a sense of consistency. Um, and for example, a couple of towns that we've done recently, they'll say, you know, shall be in accordance with this or town ordinance, which doesn't exist. Yeah. Or wasn't And so general code will flag that and say, hey, your rags are referencing an ordinance which your town repealed in 1978.

Um, and so all that potential conflict in that, you know, we'll get Yeah, it's going to be really nice. Terrific. I mean even our our ordinances and things they have not been recottified for at least most hyped. So and that and that's very common though. It happens and so taking this opportunity to be able to um enter into this kind of system moving forward would be great um for our record keeping.

Mike what happens when general code becomes obsolete? Um I well so you have you're still the owner of all the documents. They give you you know electronic and hard copy authoritative files of everything that you ultimately codify and they only do what you send to them. So if they were to become obsolete, then I guess you would no longer you have the access to their website, but you still have all the original documents because every time you send them something, they're going to say, they're going to send you a a a shrink wrapped print out and it's going to have instructions on, okay, you have five official books. Take out pages 18 through 25 and shred them and insert these here. So, you will get a mailer from them that she will get, the town clerk will get, and they will direct you how to outfit that code. So, you will have a like a bound official binder of documents that'll be in the town clerk's office. So, so you'll never lose it. It's not like uh you'll always have the source.

Correct. Or an archival paper. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everything the clerk's office keeps the archival paper through. That's just like minutes. we have to order the specific paper and and they get them in the books. They I mean they do they I mean literally

write and put together the the uh national building codes, national fire codes. They're now affiliated with what used to be referred to as Municity, which was a permitting program. So they are I mean this is this is firmware business. They're located or headquartered or whatever. their office is is in uh New York. They're not far. Um so I wouldn't think they're going to go anywhere, but if they do, you still have all the paperwork and um so yeah, I think it'll be really uh helpful for a lot of people.

Um so if anybody has any other like questions or or big concerns about kind of what we've done so far, we can certainly talk about it. If you have questions or comments after that, get them to Aaron. We can respond or talk about it further. But um really at this point we just need to schedule. Have you thought at all about this something called the plan of conservation and development? Y passed a year or so ago. You have any plans about how you connect this with that?

Yeah. So um while it wasn't me, my firm wrote it, but it was my partner John who isn't here tonight because he's working in another town on PCB. Yes, those those recommendations will inform how we think about what amendments need to be made and and what to do or how how to how to make them. So, um we will use those recommendations and and the tone of that document to inform how we need, you know, what we need to focus on or certain things that we need to make sure we don't sort of lose sight of. Um, which is why I assume you all structured it so that this is the second step because it would be silly to decide what you want. Yeah. Just regrets,

right? Other towns do their regulations first and then statutory changes. I mean, that could also also need to be part of our of our conversation just

as we part Apart. I just before we jump I did just want to say so this is because it's a a text amendment initiated by the commission. It's a formal application. It does require referrals and scheduling. We did put it into our permit software as um application number PZC26-9 and that's what would need to you know we have to share the refer the document with uh neighboring municipalities our regional planning commission who has already indicated that they you know would prefer to hold off on making comments till we make substantive changes instead of just reorganizing Um, and so tonight you would have to schedule a public hearing if you're comfortable, at least at that po at this point with the reorganization. Um, the earliest we could do that is the May 7th meeting. Um, and you know, allow for public comment and any other questions that could be raised. Um and then the commission could look to adopt that so that the document can be sent to the company start codifying and then we can now move forward on our our updates. Um and then that would be um where our first step to begin are some of the um statutory changes that um need to um really be addressed prior to July 1st. Okay. Um so we can if the commission is comfortable moving this to a public hearing, Mike can give a little introduction as to um how we're going to approach the next steps.

Should we need a motion to have it on the to schedule a public hearing? Yes. Should we do that first then? Can I have a motion to put this on public hearing as a public hearing of May 7th, 2026? Second. Any further discussion? In favor? Here we go. Okay. Okay. So, May 7th, we'll do a public hearing for this. Will you be there? Um, I will put it on my counter and long as I have something else. Um, that should be it. Let me see. I just wanted to circle back for a sec to the plan of conservation and development. Does it get put onto the code?

We can put it as a public document. It just won't be codified. But we you will have complete control over public documents and you can create as many categories and just link it in there. Yeah. Just like any other kind of plan that we have. There are many towns use agendas. Okay. Many towns that don't have websites that do all that posting. They use the general code public docs for all of those things. So yeah, you can do all of those sign guidelines. any other any other body of code or or any other whatever you've got other appendices or books or put it all on there. Yeah, for sure.

You know, coastal resiliency plans, things like that. We can all add those on. Good. Okay, so stat good idea changes.

Yes. Sorry, I'm I'm trying to put this on my calendar so I don't forget. Um so the the first the first um surprise was deciding to reorgan and codify. The second surprise um is you know the the folks in Hartford deciding to enact all this really interesting legislation. And I think the the asterisk above all of this is to some extent sort of that hashtag seemed like a good idea at the time because the further we get into this the more it's going to hurt your head. And that's because the language is unclear, poorly written, and and is not in many ways connected to fundamentally what it is that we do here. And and that's just where we are right now. Uh there's been a lot of chatter about this and some indication that it seems like there there may be some tweaks or clarifications of this legislation in the current session, which runs for another month. So when I see you again, it may be possible that we've found that they've fixed it. Um, but we also are working separately with SPROG and are an on call for them to help municipalities in the region get the amendments that are required by the bill by July 1 taken care of in rapid fashion. So part two of this discussion is that um and I'm going to try to do like a really really high level um explanation of it and and for the purposes of what we need to worry about between now and July 1, what you need to sort of just keep in mind is essentially in any zone that is commercial or mixed use essentially non-residential as of July 1, we need to allow by what is called a summary review. So think of site plan um two to nine unit residential developments across the board. You have no control

over whether they are two, five or nine units. The the applicant chooses that. You can't regulate densities. Um but you can develop requirements for the summary review like site plan where you have standards which are essentially non-discretionary yes no criteria, right? setbacks, coverage, height, um number of stories, location on the lot, etc. So, um we we know that come July 1, the statute says that this is in effect, which means on July 2nd that you say, what if we do nothing? It means that when someone if someone comes in, you have to essentially try to take that application and apply the standards currently in your regs based on the zone that it's in to figure out if it meets those criteria or not. And if you find that you have gaps in those regulations because you designed them for commercial zones and now you have a residential project, you're out of luck. So um we are we are focused on making the changes. That's obviously priority number one. Priority number two is making sure that we have something on the books for July 1 so that you don't get caught.

Yeah. A good part of this is TBD. Yes. And some of that I think Mike is because the current the zoning regulations in the zoning regulations and the statutes up until now there is no definition of what a summary review is and that can be interpreted perhaps in various ways. Is that an administrative approval by the CEO? Is that a commission review? So it is in our best interest to add some language to create a mechanism of doing this proactively.

It doesn't mean it can't be changed during our comprehensive update. It just means that we should take advantage of this and the the COGS and the state, you know, have recognized the importance of this and have set aside funds to assist municipalities in doing that and that needs to happen prior to the end of this fiscal year. So that's sort of why we have kind of shifted directions to address this first year. it will work out well because if we focus, you know, May, June on the summary review requirements and general code is going through the process of codifying your rags, you know, we'll we'll be in a good place where when we're done with all that and the dust is kind of settled and we respond to anything else that happens this session, there are several bills that are pending. one would one would apply this exact standard that we're talking about and bring in industrial zones. Um we have do you guys have historic here?

Yes. So there's a bill that would allow that would make the ZBA the appeals board for historic district denials. Now if you get denied by historic, you have to go to court. This this bill which has some broad support would say you can now appeal that decision to the CBA which is a potentially a scary thing or not depending on your board. we've ever had an appeal. Um, and then there's some language which also undo undoes all of the uh uh standards related to accessory dwelling units. So, towns were able to opt out and were able to create some qualifiers and they're basically saying no that that's going away too. So, um all flush out, right? The session ends May 6th.

So, as of that I don't know whenever your when when's your May meeting? What what's the date? May 7th. So we'll know. So we'll know by May 7th what other work we have to do. But it'll work well. The general code will be doing their thing while we're figuring this out and then we'll get the code back started. Yeah. And some of those are less pressing. I mean it's similar to like our parking you know when it it was reduced you could opt out of you know for ADUs or

um just you know number of bedroom spaces required. if the town did not opt out and you didn't change your regulations, the statute over rule that. So that would happen if if the statute changes for our accessory apartment section. Um that's a little less concerning I think than um the summary review process where you actually need a mechanism to be in a substant did make changes to parking. If it's under 16 units, you can't you can't require parking and you can't deny it if you don't think there's enough.

Um, if you feel there are areas in town where you need to have some control over parking and you're dealing with something that's plus 16 units, there's a way there's a process for parking uh needs or parking demand assessment to be done. We don't have 16

and you can create parking mitigation districts or traffic mitigation districts which give you specific authority over those little zones for parking. But um largely the smaller stuff you can have whatever requirements you want in the code. If you say they need 100 and they decide to do 50, you you know if it's under the 16, you can't do anything about it. So again, I don't think that's as big of a deal because largely it becomes a marketing issue for builders. If they don't offer parking and their development requires access to a car, that's usually on them. Um, and unless you have areas where you think people are just going to free-for-all on the street, which you still have control over because it's your road, it's not a big problem here. Um, and then I guess the only other thing that probably is worth mentioning, I don't know if you have a lot of this here, but you guys do tend to receive like protest petitions. So that that is essentially out the window.

Let's talk about environmental interveners. So the interveners obviously is the same but a protest petition which would require a supermajority vote if you get a percentage of the land owners yet. So they they increased the percentage of land from 20 to 50 and then said even if you get to 50 it's just a simple majority which is required anyways. Did Bridges Woodbridge might have just changed that? Woodbridge did they just have that as an issue or Woodbridge? Yeah. So, I support Woodbridge. They had um three environmental interveners for a recent housing application. Um but so that they were dealing with that. They didn't have a separate protest

protest petition. There was no zone change at that point. I can't I can't recall any protest no in in generally in this region area. Yeah. Shoreline. There may be a very nice opportunity here to do something wise. That'd be good. But is the is it general theme coming from the state house to initiate more affordable housing? Is that what's behind this? Yes.

Largely. So I mean that there is a feeling that the the state as a whole is somewhere north of a 100,000 dwelling units shy of what they need. And I mean, so Tiki in one way or another, we have worked in between 60 and 70 towns in Connecticut and I think have a fairly good understanding of of a lot of that. We don't do a lot in Fairfield County for a number of reasons, some of which are by choice. outside of that the No, I mean I'm serious that

I think that largely that's what's driving this because there's a perspective amongst a lot of people that planning and zoning commissions and zoning regulations are the barrier to why everybody hasn't seen all the things that they say the state needs. It's really not the case. It it it really just isn't. Um many many towns are in a position of if you have reasonable development, we're willing to work with you. Our regulations are you we try to be flexible with some obviously parameters but there are except for that corner of the state there there are very few towns that are taking that perspective of we don't want anything go somewhere else like

yeah but it's not just that it's also that the zone zoning regulations tend to be costs uh yes I think that they can be in that a zoning regulation will have a large impact on whether a project is feasible. Correct.

But after that and that and that gets solved through a text amendment, right, which isn't very costly. They have to sell you. But but once you get past that really then what comes into play is material costs and the building code, which is where everything falls apart. Um, and so I mean I I can think of several towns, you know, all of which would fit on my hand that if all the projects they'd approved in the last five years were built, they're, you know, you're probably amassing 2,000 units. But it just doesn't

leadership is also increase the density beyond what had been previously allowed. the well they want to focus density um because you know they want the transit that they already the state already has to to be more productive and that they want to make make use of a lot of that stuff which is why a lot of the things that you'll see coming out of some of these other sections of this bill or with CMDA and all this other stuff is got a transit focus that's where they really That's right that's right that's right yeah and and transit tends to have water and sewer so you're not worried about density they're all not all necessarily deed restricted affordable. It's housing

and it's it's not necessarily all 830G, right? Right. That's what that's the theme. Yeah. Yeah. The Well, yeah. You you bring up your inventory, you lower your I think there's just a big disconnect and they still think that housing isn't being built because towns are just too hard to work with. And I think there's a handful of towns that are that way, but the vast majority are not. And they just haven't, I think, caught up. I think we just crossed the 2% mark of affordable housing. We're up to two. I think we're over two. I I I reported a lot more units, wasted both. Yeah. But there's a lot of reasons for that. And some of it may have been historic zoning practices. Exactly.

But there's there's a lot of things that go into it. And so it's not just simply if the state mandates a bunch of things as being allowable that they're going to get built. Right. And so I think that's where the disconnect is. And so it is a challenge because you know now every town in Connecticut is scrambling to figure out what this thing means. The cogs are having to figure out how to deal with this all the housing growth plan requirements and how to establish the developable land inventory. And then ultimately we'll assign you as a town the number of units you will have to focus on trying to create. And there's so much subjectivity to all of that and how that gets applied. Um you know it's a lot of money and energy. I mean, I think if they put that money into filling the funding gaps on some of the projects that can't happen but are close, right?

So, you know, I I think that zoning gets a bad rap in a lot of ways. And I just don't see that as case. But I don't know. I haven't I haven't been around you guys enough to know if you guys are on the good side or the bad side of that. So is why there are medicine there some folks who think nothing should ever change the creat I think we we all love living frighteningly we could afford to go somewhere else. Yeah.

But uh some folks think that you know rather than have things in the pose it's good to it's it's it's not it may not be your problem. It may be an enhancement of the quality of life uh to be able to some folks who can't afford. You're speaking for yourself. I'm speaking for myself. I mean they are tragedy and there's a there there's something to be said for figuring out an efficient way to to move things forward either because it's been mandated or because it's it's sort of the way that that the world is going. And when you're talking about housing, a lot of times people think that housing and economic development are two separate things and they are not. No.

Um I was just in Woodbridge and housing is a very very very big issue

and um I gave them an example of a project which was just approved in another town that I'm in. It is uh like 280 units across a couple of buildings and there's a small mixeduse component. Um and the assessor's um initial estimation is that it will be worth around $50 million which is a massive jump to a to a suburban community from a grandless perspective. And so when you start looking at a substantial impact to the grand list for something like housing, if you're willing to sort of take the leap of faith that allowing density in in you know the right areas makes some sense. You can achieve those things with just a handful of parcels rather than forcing sprawl because everybody just cuts it up and says we need 2 acres and 6,000 square feet in a house. That's a good So you can you know change you can really have a lot of impact in a lot of ways with like a handful of parcels

that we don't even see that you won't even see or here with the and it won't impact our police or your schools or you know it's it's a positive very cool. Yeah, there's definitely Yeah, I think there's a shift with some of the way people are thinking about that and and for the better. Um but the good news is with all this housing stuff that's happening there's a lot more data and things to point to

going down there. So, um, yeah, one of the biggest issues in Woodbridge with that project was this idea that all this the data suggested that 96 units would generate seven school age children and and the average person that was not in support of that project thought that that was insane to suggest that only seven kids would come out of 96 units. And that I mean that was a fundamental breakdown, polarizing point in the sand. Um, and it the data is clear, you know. Um, so yeah, we'll get into all that. Very good.

So I I think what I the last thing that I'll mention is we are one of the things that we decided to do because of the fact that we're all going to going forward with this summary review with this question mark of what it is and what it will become is we've kind of taken the position of wanting to take a more formbbased approach to how we regulate and and set the reg the the requirements up. So, we've been working on a template because we're we're working on this with maybe six towns in the Sprout region right now. Um, and so we are are creating a template which will separate the types of buildings into different categories, two to three units, sort of four to six units, the the the cottage clusters because that also has to be allowed and then commercial building to residential use conversions. And so we're going to have the standard bulk table of all the requirements as far as setbacks and coverage and height and stories and whatever. And then we're also going to have um example renderings of the style of building, the roof types, the material types, landscaping design so that we will be able to go in and very quickly plug and play the the the data points in the table, but but we will have graphical representations of what we expect these buildings to look like. that that you know have all of the architectural features that you might expect with regard to the types of windows and you know we we don't want um someone to come in and build very lowcost housing. That's not in context of what's around it. Not because of all the things like community character because we know we don't can't get into that anymore but cheap low cost not uh uh what the word is. I'm talking about Cababrini green here. I'm just saying cheap cheap cheap housing that's that's sort of poorly designed and and not thoughtful is not a better place for people to actually live.

No, correct. So, you know, if people are going to be expected to live here for more than one lease term, it ought to be a place that's enjoyable to live just like the two plot. So, I think let's plan to we will plan to present the initial draft of those templates in May. I think we'll with time we'll have to Yeah. Okay. and and some of that will be using you know your commercial zones are the downtown your east and west end and we have north circle and the rural shopping district is our other one. So we have relatively small areas very few

um but we do have bulk standards for each of those. So the initial look would be kind of modeling this this format to make it if you comply with all of these options then you know you're comfortable moving forward with approvals. Um and so Mike we'll we'll plug in what our existing standards are to kind of get an idea of what this looks like in our particular zones. Y um I agree it's a good approach. Okay. Um, so I guess we could next month. Yeah, it's coming up. Coming up.

Yeah. So at that meeting after the public hearing, hopefully it's a, you know, an eventful public hearing for just the reorg then we can kind of jump right into the piece to look at and that'll keep us on time. The other piece is um if we end up having just because of the scheduling of our meetings um we may look to have um you know two or three commissioners who may be available during the day to kind of vet out some things a little bit in preparation for the commission. Um if someone has some flexibility and might be interested in kind of sitting on some type of working you know as needed group to call in. Um, I can I can pull here.

Yeah, I'd be interested and I can make the time. Um, that that might be helpful. Just especially for this piece like if you you know right now you know you approve the reorder. Well, you're 30 days for your next meeting and we're going to give everybody 35 days notice. So, if we do everything at the monthly meetings, we will lose two months every time.

Yeah. So getting a first pass with a small group of people a week and a half ahead of this meeting means that we're hopefully closer and so you guys are in a position of being able to make sort of maybe more progress here and we can not lose 60 days every time we give you something for summary review. We really don't have the time because we've got to basically get something ready for May so you can refer it out to have a hearing in June. Well, it doesn't leave us much of an opportunity to get that first pass. Um, and I I you know, I know in a couple of towns, and I don't know if it exists here, if you have sort of the the some developers that sort of stay in a couple of these towns and are sort of known and kind of do everything gear, whatever, but there have been some towns that have already been approached by real estate developers or real estate like land owners saying, "Oh, we heard about the summary review thing. You know, we we're going to submit an amendment. You shouldn't have to do we'll submit an amendment. We think this we could do this together."

Right? Wink wink. We're We're going to do this. We'll we'll help you out. We'll submit it and you can review it. So, I do think and actually the the event that happened with CCFA in Cromwell, there were I saw three or four housing developers there. So, I do think there are some people paying attention to that. Maybe, you know, trying to scoop up commercial properties that haven't worked for commercial purposes that now suddenly can be 9 years. Yes. Any of those. So, I don't think you're going to have a line out the door in Aeron's office on July 2nd, but there is certainly an opportunity that someone could come in and say, "Oh, you don't have regs yet." So, be advised.

So, we just want to get something that is as good as we can in the time that we have so that we can close that door as much as possible and then we can continue to refine from there. Okay. Um, do some towns have kayak free zones because Kayakers are crazy. Kayak freezes. But I love fish. So freezing where we should go. I don't the only

the only anecdote I can give you with that is is somebody who wanted to start a kayak business but claimed that the and the town told him he could not because of all the something related to the requirements for him to run it out of his home. And he claimed it was because uh the town wanted to rent the kayaks themselves and didn't want competition. That correlates hard.

Not at 6 a.m. on Sunday. That was super. I agree. You can't say I've heard that one before. Well, thanks. Don't worry very much. Thank you for having to say how impressed I am just as a As a software engineer and someone who lives and breathes by order, um I very much appreciate the effort that it took to organize all of that. Um thank you. And I'm super curious who's going to do your testing because having done like the link testing web pages and such. Yeah, I guess they convert it all to is it an XML or I don't know something that they they run it through on their end that captures all the links

whatever they Yeah, they have magic in their sort of back end. Um and I' I've not seen anything incorrect yet. And so they will do an organizational analysis on their end and make sure that the structure of the code meets their standards and doesn't have any gaps or or failures before they even start it. And they will send a review to you all and say here's what's going on. Here's the chapters. Here's the problems. And they'll flag all that right up front. Okay.

Um and so yeah, it is it does bring a sense of order and uh it is nice to be able to have all that. it. This Yeah, dealing with the document was a challenge. It It's in bad shape. I don't know how anybody knows if they've met the regs because I don't know how you The entirety of the regs I don't think exists in one place. That's true. In people's heads maybe, but like it's not on the web. I don't know. No, not on the web. Two appendix A's an appendix B a book two formerly that an empty page.

No wor I just had a couple I had a couple questions. You were asking about the the general code, the company, the general general code. Did we do a did we do like a vendor risk assessment on this company to see how stable they are? So, there are I won't speak for for Aaron, but I but because I I I didn't think about like they're not a fly by night company. You said they're this large company. They're nationally known. So, they've got like a good Are they public or are they uh privately held? the town clerk has has gone through and been part of as our official record. I can't was asking the questions like some some of security that they're just not going to other than disappear in our stuff. Yeah.

We would have the country would have no building code, no fire code. Yes, that's where I was going is I I they're probably very well vetted at this point if national interests are being Yeah, they they are. I mean, I can't imagine that they would they would go anywhere given that they're, you know, they codify all types of legislation across local, county, you know, all across the country. Um, there are only two really two vendors that do this in state. The other is is Unicode. Um, I don't know much about types of companies that they are, but I know that having Unicode is CIC Civic Plus.

Yeah. Unicode is is much more challenging to work with and not nearly as detail- oriented in how responsive they are with updating things and their tracking of what happens and the timeliness and cost and functionality. So, um, several towns have gone from the municipode system to general code because it it aligns much more with how things happen here. But I assume that you guys went through all that to tell her she was pretty on top of it. Yes. And the town clerk ultimately is conversations. I'm sure it's been well vetted. They're not going anywhere. Thanks so much, Mike, for that.

Presentations. Thank you. Yeah. We will see you in Y blank at the last scene, but this is the start of a long relationship and case. hopefully not too too long. and and I defense captain

we'll try to one of the things that I try to be really cognizant of and I think we do a good job of is not creating sort of commission fatigue where we we we drop 30 pages of amendments at 9:30 at night after you've had four public hearings and you know you're sort of uninterested we'll we'll move this along at a speed that makes sense and we'll take our foot off the gas when needed to make sure that it's you know we don't want you to be saying that rag is terrible a year after we're done. Thanks. You know how to do it. So, we'll get there. Okay. Great. Again, next on our agenda, we have approval of minutes,

Secretary John Morgan. We're going to talk about the minutes from the March 19th, 2026 meeting. Commissioners present were Carol Snow, John Duca, John Morgan, Mike Bugda, Michelle Clark, who was seated, Max Karun, who needs to be added to the minutes, Bob Connor, and Jeffrey DS via Zoom. Commissioner Commissioner is absent where Janet and Andy and Darren was also resident staff member. A motion to review and approve the minutes. Uh second Mike second. Um so I just had a couple of u minor adding max as a as an in attendance. Um in the first page there's a a paragraph that uh begins on present present on behalf of the applicant. Um we noted that uh one uh the attorney attended via Zoom but we didn't note that Mike got attended by Zoom. So I guess just for consistency we probably should say Mike also attended by by Zoom.

And then there was a couple of minor spelling things that I've already given to Aaron. Anybody else have anything? No. Great. Uh motion to or vote to approve. My name is the S early on but included on that spell. This one is missing. I missed that one. But it's included later on. So that's all. What was the first name? Dylan or something. 10th December. I don't know why it does that. It It's Yeah. Spell check. Okay. Vote to approve. Approve. That was

Sorry, gentlemen. Thank you. Jenn saying who's your birthday? Yes. Okay. Um I have no remarks or comments. Aaron, anything else? No. As of now, we don't have any applications for your next meeting. So, I'll give it 24 hours and then she gets nice. Good to know. Um, so yeah, we if we don't have anything, we may have spring break. Spring breakation. I have one more quick question.

Yeah. when we put out the notice for this public hearing about is there a way to word it so it it's kind of making sure people understand it is basically just a reorgan of the numbers that's basically nothing new changing

that is um how I I drafted this in the um and I can just kind of read it real quick to you so that you um we worked on that today you're slow. Um, so it's a it's a Madison Planning and Zoning Commission application for text amendment to reorganize existing zoning regulations for migration into online codification system. So it I I can add another line that says there are no substantive

I would say that language. That's really unfair. But and then we'll say that people language substantive less than substantial right now. We there will be no nothing has changed. Not the meeting to stay tuned. Talk about we're just getting our ducks in a row. We're not changing the ducks. Yes. But why? Better than Yeah. And that's that's the goal and the legal notice will reflect that as well. All right, good idea. Anything else? Motion to adjurnn. Motion to second.

All in favor? At 8