City Council - Regular Meeting

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Recording in progress.

Good evening. This is the Tuesday, September 8th, 2026 special meeting of the City Council of the City of Louisville. If we could get a roll call, please.

Mayor Pro Tem Hamilton. Here. Council Member Fahey. Here. Council Member Cooperman.

Here.

Council Member Heffner.

Here. Here.

Councilmember Kern? Present. Councilmember Dickinson?

Here.

Mayor Lay?

Here.

Here. All right. If you join with me as able, I'll say the Pledge of Allegiance. Great. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, Thank you all. Tonight, we have a couple of matters on our agenda, but the first one is meeting with the Cultural Advisory Board, and we're really excited that you're here. Why don't we, just in case you don't know everybody, why don't we go around and introduce ourselves? I'm Chris Lay, the Mayor.

Deb Fahey, Ward 2 Councilmember.

Caleb Dickinson, Ward 1. Judy Curran, Board 2, and just a big thank you for Labor Day and all the work you guys did. Thanks.

Diana Lely, City Manager. Samah Fox, Deputy City Manager.

Hi, I'm Raina Pomeroy.

I'm Raina Pomeroy.

Jeff Gilliard.

Leah Franks. J.R. Keppelson.

Muhammad Ghali.

Sarah Staunton.

I'm Iris Beletsky.

I'm the Arts and Events Program Manager. Brandy Cummings, the Director of Cultural Services.

Dietrich Heffner, City Council, Ward 3. Josh Cooperman, Ward 1.

Barbara Hamlington, Ward 3. Nice to see you all.

Thanks. I thought I would sort of introduce this, and I'm looking forward to a good conversation with you all. between us and you. Really appreciate, Cav, as you know, over time, this committee has evolved, right? Many of you know the history. If you don't, it's just as well, or it's just as well that you're kind of helping to make that history right now. We have about an hour tonight, no more. So that's a fairly short period of time in which to talk about a number of things. So if council members aren't able to address every question that you have tonight, it's not because we're not listening carefully. It's more that... We may not be prepared, but we may also need to think a little bit more. And we may just not have all the time that we need. And we can carry the conversation forward between members and members of the council if that needs to happen. Like to get, make sure to get through your presentation and your questions and really very, very excited about what you're doing and what you're up to and what you're going to be up to in the future. So with that, would you like to get going on, I understand there's a presentation,

Well, that's getting loaded up. Just let me take the opportunity to thank City Council, Mayor, Mayor Potem, and city staff for allowing us this opportunity. What we're going to do tonight is we're going to give you a presentation and talk about what we are doing as the Cultural Advisory Board and how that impacts arts and events in the city. And then at the end, we will have some questions, but we're going to give the presentation first. I think we'll get through this in an hour or less, but I'm notoriously known for saying that at every council, at every cultural advisory board meeting that we have, and we don't. But I'm not doing all the talking tonight, so this could work. So this gets... Most of you know that I'm the chair of the Cultural Advisory Board. Sarah Staunton is the co-chair of the board, and Leah Franks is the secretary who takes the minutes. And the rest of these people are the very talented board that surround us.

There we go.

Okay, that's perfect. So there we are. There's the Cultural Advisory Board. This is a picture that was taken last year at the Trunk or Treat event, which is one of the last events we have. Coming up this year, I think we have Silent Movie Night as well. But this is a really fun event. If you have the opportunity, you should come out and check it out. If you have kids, if you have grandkids, this is a great event. So cabs roll. Let me go through cabs roll quickly, or maybe not so quickly. So Our primary role is to advise on cultural programming. We advise the city staff. So we advise Iris and Maggie on programming. Some examples of that are the World Music Event series that we hold at the beginning of every year. We do that at the Center for the Arts, and we're going to talk about the Center for the Arts later. So that series first comes through us on the board, and we say things like, I want to have Middle Eastern music. And then we'll say, well, go find Middle Eastern music. And that Middle Eastern music will show up. That happened a couple of years ago. We've had didgeridoo. We've had Native American flute music. No bagpipes yet. I'm thankful for that. So we help advise Iris and Maggie what we would like to see. We find the bands, some of the bands. And then they go out and they book those bands. We also advise on the concerts in the park as well. So we help pick those bands and it's actually a pretty cool process. We'll go out and we'll find bands that we like and then we submit that to the board and then we'll listen to them and then we rank them. We rank them, you know, this is my top five, this is my top five. And that's how we pick some of those bands for the concerts in the park. Ultimately, we help advise that, but it's staff. It's Iris and Maggie that are doing all of the coordination and the booking and the contract negotiations and those things. They're doing the heavy lifting. We're doing the fun work. We volunteer. We are currently a working board, and the members of this board have um donated or volunteered an average of about 20 to 20 20 to 25 hours each um for the events that happen and those are things like if we have something at the center for the arts we will go over and help set it up we will help tear it down we will help set up sound for the band again all the coordinating is done by the staff but we are there to help out we do that at the concerts in the park as well. You were over at the senior dinner. Some of you saw me helping out. Jeff was helping out. Sarah was helping out. So we are a working board, and volunteering is critical to make these events run smoothly. I'm not going to say it wouldn't happen without us, but it wouldn't be as smooth without us. Um, program, uh, stabilization and supplemental funding. So I'm going to talk about the, um, and talk about the block party and i know that we have taken that black party offered next year uh... out of our budget but the block parties a great example of how we had an event and the event crew we did this for five years it became you know a fun event i was i was in the phone party with the mayor this this year at the at the event but it was it was a great event and you know the supplemental funding uh... Reina was able to you know procure funding from Marshall together to help us make that event happen It wouldn't have happened this year without that funding. We wouldn't have been able to do what we did So that's what we mean when we talk about supplemental funding so we have members of the board who can help with that supplemental funding The arts grants. We're going to talk more in detail about the arts grants later. But the arts grants, they're near and dear to my heart because I've been working on this process for five years now. And basically what the art grants are is we go out into the community and we say, you know, We have five grants that we award for $2,000 each to artists or organizations. The performances have to happen within Louisville. And so we gather those. The city staff puts that up on the website. We'll get in 15 to 20 applications. As a board, we will go through that. We have a list of criteria that we use, and then we have – We have rankings for each of those criteria, one through five, and examples of what that would look like, you know, for EDI or impact to the community. And so we will do that early in the year, and then the board will sit down and we'll vote on that, and then we get together and we determine who the winners are. It's usually just, you know, The scoring and whoever gets the highest five scores will get the awards. Some years we have the discretion of saying, well, we got like four of these happening and it'd be nice to have something that would maybe have a little bit more impact on a different part of the community like children or seniors. So we'll talk more about the ARC grants later. but I have a really cool story about that if it doesn't get told, so I'll make sure you hear that. The other thing is arts advocacy. Everybody on the board is a lover of the arts. We love Louisville, we love being able to be part of bringing these arts and events to the community, and we all advocate for this. We're out on social media telling people that these events are gonna happen. We're telling our neighbors through, you know, through email lists. We're telling our friends and we're telling them, hey, you need to come do this. You need to do this. But we're all advocates for the arts. Every one of us, you know, is a strong advocate for the arts. We can go to the next slide. uh... staff and support there they are maggie maggie and iris so iris bolinski is the uh... arts and events program manager she's full-time employee for the city doing a fantastic job maggie sava is the special events coordinator and she's uh... she's iris's right hand person And she's doing a great job. She is part-time. So everything that's happening is happening with this board and a staff of 1.5 FTEs. So it's a lot gets accomplished by this staff. Tremendous things get accomplished. Sponsors. So, you know, these are just some of our sponsors. These are not an exhaustive list of sponsors or community partners, but you can see the list there. And I'll just give you a quick example of like a share violin shop. So we've done the old time fiddle contest twice now. And we think we're going to do it again next year because Will Scherer has said he'll be part of it. But Will Scherer advertises that, and he also donates an antique violin every year, an antique fiddle every year to be first place. So he's on board with wanting to do that next year for that event. We're going to change the date on it, and we think we're going to have more participants playing fiddle next year because this year and last year we were doing it in early August, and that's at a time when a lot of big old-time fiddle contests are going on. So the people in the area that might come, you know, they'll come next year. Can we go back to the last one? I think I had one more thing to say there. Yeah, and then there are the community partners. Okay, current assets. There's a picture of the Center for the Arts. I'm going to talk about that first. So the Center for the Arts is our space that we can conduct events and presentations. It will hold 70, I think 80 is the max for fire code. And it's a great event. It's a beautiful building. It's such a great place to host things like the World Series. Well, yeah, Game 7, the World Music Series that we have. It's a great spot for that, but there's constraints on that building, as you're probably all well aware. There are outside organizations, great organizations that occupy that building a vast majority of the time. If you were to go out and just take a look at the calendar for booking the Center for the Arts, you'll see that there's not a lot of dates available. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying it's a constraint. For us, it limits when we can hold events there. So office and storage and office space. So all the equipment that we have, and we talk about the basic equipment in the next point, it all has to be stored someplace. So we need storage, and that's an important part of this. I personally have moved sound equipment in the Center for the Arts, and it's in a little closet when you walk in the door. And if one of the other organizations happens to be in there doing an event, sometimes it can get a little tricky getting in and out of the space because there's two people trying to share it. We work through it, but it does take additional time. And then office space, I know that Maggie is sitting at a desk in a hallway right now. So just that these are things that better office situation would probably make people more productive. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it would probably make people more productive. And then Steinbaugh Pavilion, the Center for the Arts and Steinbaugh are effectively the two assets that we can use to host events. And both of those have a focus from outside organizations using them. Again, not a bad thing, but just a reality that those are the constraints that we face when we want to do something. And Steinbaugh probably has a limited shelf life at this time. So I think we're going to go on to Jeff next. Should I stop and ask if you have questions at this point? Does anyone have questions or we wanna wait till the end or? Nope, okay.

All right, thanks, JR. I get to talk about some of the fun stuff, which JR's hinted at, which is our engagement with the community. And we are reaching a lot of people, tens of thousands of people. So far this year, 30,000 people have been involved with one of our events, which is just incredible given the size of our city. And for many of our residents and non-residents— Recording in progress. You know, I don't have to tell you all. For many of our citizenry—excuse me, this is the way that they engage with the city.

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Hey, I'm my friend. And, you know, we all pay our utility bills, but the level of engagement isn't quite the same as we see with these events. So I just want to talk a little bit about four areas of this, which is the programming itself, which you're familiar with, the arts grants.

Can you hold for just a second? Yes. Can you hold for just a second?

Yes.

We're having an internet Zoom issue.

We'll pause.

Yeah, sure.

Oh, technology.

That wasn't Brandy's fault, you mean?

No. Um... All right. Are we good?

Continue? All right. So, Flores, here's the foam party, of course, and the Pride event. But we'll talk about events themselves, the arts grants that you alluded to, public art and facility rentals. So, I was talking about the events themselves. In the past three years, typically, the city puts on 26 events. events per year and just for reference that was up from a maximum of 15 in 2023 and before so a huge amount of increased programming we get a lot of feedback i'm sure you all get a lot of feedback that people like what we're doing and we also continue to experiment with new stuff as jr was saying so whether it's movie on main or the fiddle contest we talked about trunk or treat This year, the inaugural Pride event, hugely successful. And attendance has also been steadily increasing. So the 4th of July at Wanaka Lake this year was over 12,000 people, which is kind of nuts. And kudos to all of us, I guess, for scheduling that appropriately with the sister cities around us. The summer concerts, when I tell people I'm on cab, and maybe when you say you're on city council, I don't know, you probably get more complaints. I don't get any complaints. I say, we love the summer concerts, and how come there aren't more of them? So the final one this year was the long run. If you were there, there were over 2,000 people in the park there. And to me, that's just quintessential Louisville. I've said to Jarrah, and I've said to everybody, We moved here from Boulder. We love Boulder, but Boulder couldn't pull that event off. So Louisville, it's just awesome. And then these programs like the Labor Day Parade that you were all involved in yesterday or the Life in Louisville Photography Contest, those are increasing in participation as well. So again, what I hear a lot of, and I think the board would echo, is can you do more? And the short answer right now is no, we cannot, given the constraints that J.R. alluded to. Talking about the grants, and I want to hear what J.R. has to say, if he's going to say it here, but we do fund the five organizations, and we deliberately, as J.R. said, try to be pretty thoughtful as to diversity of media, meaning type of art, as well as target constituencies. And so I think if you've seen what we've funded, it is fairly diverse. And then those organizations take the funds and go out and reach hundreds of citizens as well through that.

through that. JR, do you want to jump in here or not?

Sure. I'd be happy to jump in here. The amazing thing about the arts grants is when we score those and we sit down and we go through them is we generally will take the top five. And a couple of times in the past three years, we have said, well, we've got too many of this media or too many of this. And we'd like to see this because it's going to be an event that caters to small children as an example. And so generally, it'll be the top five, and we're pretty much in agreement on it when you rank these. So a couple of them that I just want to talk about real quickly. Last year, 2025, the Sanssouci Dance Company was awarded a grant, and it was called Ages Like Fine Wine. I get a little choked up about this. So anyway, they went to Balfour, and they took memory patients. and did dance therapy with them. And the people would just really love that. And it was such a powerful thing. Balfour was so happy that this happened. And it's just that these are things that we don't talk about enough. And that's what the arts grants are. This year, a young person, Alex Burnett, does self-care serenading with a harp. And they won a grant. And they spent four days at the Center for the Arts, two hours each, playing harp music. And then people could go in and they could be, I went to one of the sessions. People could go in and they could be doing their art. They could be meditating. They could take a nap, which I did. They could be reading. They could be journaling. There was just this beautiful thing where 25 or 30 people are all on little yoga mats, and they're all nested in blankets and just enjoying this opportunity. This is another thing that I thought was just like... I was really impressed by it. And the one I went to, they were even doing acupuncture in your ears. So, I mean, I got that done, too. Anyway, I just wanted to thanks, thanks, thanks, Jeff. Just the arts grants, I think, just allow us to do some really wonderful things. And we have ideas on how we might try to change it this year. But I'm not going to go into that. So, anyway, thanks. Thanks, Jeff.

OK, great, so moving on next slide.

So just to talk about recording stopped recording in progress.

You still good? Okay. Public art. So I have to confess this is an area that I'm passionate about and it's probably one of the drivers that led me to interview with you all to join this board. We have gone, again, sort of contrasting then and now, and I probably don't have to tell most of you, from years where there were no additions to our public art to doing at least three temporary or permanent installations here in Louisville. So just a few examples from this year. We talked about Louisville Lens, which you can go see if you haven't over at the library right now. 25 residents participate in that, very diverse group of our residents. Over 400 find the Pomodoro passports were handed out this summer. Over 1,500 people painted that pride mural, which is hanging in the alley across from the parking deck at the library. including my kids who absolutely loved it. That is just a, it's such a, I just, we went over, I went over the other day and it's just such a cool piece of art. I love it. And that was our first time doing Pride. So it's just amazing. And speaking of the library, as you know, the art gallery is now curated or run by the arts and events staff. And so that is just so engaging when you walk into the library, there's art right there, which is just amazing. Awesome. And then finally, JR already touched on the two facilities, Steinbaugh and the Arts Center. And the management of that has improved steadily over the years. And we've seen increased engagement and use. In fact, as JR also said, this has become a constraint. Just to give you a number, so far this year, 3,600 hours have been booked so far into the Arts Center, which is A lot. I mean, that's a lot.

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AI doesn't like me very much. But the good news is that's what I've got on our events programming, and I'm going to turn it over to Muhammad, I believe.

Thank you Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, Council Members for the opportunity to present here today on behalf of the Cultural Advisory Board. I want to also thank the city staff, IRS, Brandy and team for all the support. We really couldn't have done it without you all. Today I'll be presenting on EDI, equality, diversity and inclusion and this is an important principle that we place in all of our programming. Arts and events programming aims to be both representative of the diversity in our community and expose our community to diversity through different cultures and art forms while remaining accessible to all. Vincent Van Gogh once said, I feel that there is nothing more truly artistic than to love people. What he meant by that is the creative expression is a direct extension of our deep care for one another. Every citizen in our town has the equal right to enjoy all of our events without exclusion. No matter what your race, color, gender, religion, sexual orientation, everyone has a right to come and be a part of our community through our events. First of all, our events are free and open to all. We don't charge a cover like in a club. They are free. So no matter what your socioeconomic status is, we provide the opportunity to come and be a part of our great community. ADA access. I had read a recent study of a CDC study that one out of four adults living in the United States have some form of disability. Whether it's a mental or a physical disability, mobility disability, we as a city need to be able to serve this population by providing easy access for them to enjoy our events. At the art center, for example, we have a ramp so that people on wheelchairs can be able to enter the building easily. We also have the doors wide open. We do get cold, but they can enter without any problems. We also have designated seating areas for them in the front row so that they can watch all of our events easily without hassle. Since we don't have ushers, we as volunteer board members are helping them to their seats and provide a great level of service throughout the events. Next, I want to talk about our events that span across various locations throughout the town. Even though our events are walkable and bikeable throughout the city with our great trail systems, we as a board try to ensure that our programming is spread out throughout the town so we are not catering exclusively to one neighborhood, for example, downtown. We've had events in downtown, Community Park, Cottonwood Park, Arboretum, Relish parking lots, the golf course. We try our best to touch different neighborhoods throughout Louisville. Also, our city staff have done a magnificent job educating the public on all of our programming. We market our events through social media posts, newsletters, word of mouth, and signs on the streets so we can reach as many people as we can. In addition to offering accessible events throughout the community, we also aim to provide diversity in the content of our programming. For example, the World Music Series. Our programming exposes Louisville residents to diversity, both in culture and in art form. We've had world music from India, from Africa, France, Spain, this year alone at the Art Center. In past years, we've had Mayan ceremonies, Brazilian jazz. Look out for next year as we are thinking about traditional music from Egypt, my native country. I'd love for our citizens to travel to those regions and when they say, I've seen these performances right here in our great city, that to me defines success. We also explore different musical genres in summer concert series, explore different genres of film, movie on main and silent movie night. We also support diverse individuals through different art forms by careful consideration of the art grant selection process like we mentioned earlier. One of our criteria is when selecting an art grant that we score is does this topic of the program or type of artistic expression bring increased diversity, equity or inclusion to Louisville? Diversity and representation. Our programming directly represents our residents when they participate in the final project. We recently had the Louisville Lens Project, a community photography exhibition showcasing unique resident capture perspectives using a disposable camera. All the pictures are up in the library, on display at the library, so come and check it out. the pride mural we had residents participate in painting the pride mural which is currently hanging behind the bittersweet coffee shop our programming represents the louisville population with family oriented events kid focus events lgbtq events and senior events we try to capture it all thank you and i'll now turn it over to you

Okay, so I'm going to talk about cultural programming as an economic driver. This shouldn't be a surprise based on the numbers that Jeff just mentioned, but cultural programming leads to direct benefits for the city economy by bringing residents out of their homes and bringing non-residents into Louisville, which not only bolsters the economy but helps local artists thrive. get paid for their art and all that jazz. So we don't have specific data for Louisville. My understanding is that there are tools to track these numbers, but I was able to find some data for the metro area, which includes Boulder County. from the last couple years. So the CBCA, which is the Colorado Business Committee for the Arts, came out with their economic activity impact study, which was from 2024. The study came out in 2025, but the cultural sector in the metro area has reached a record high of $3.1 billion. billion dollars, which is a lot. And Colorado is unique, I think. I think Colorado and Utah are unique in engagement and activity for cultural activities, which I think you might understand why, those two states. So that $3.1 billion is an increase of 19, almost 20% from 2022. And that growth continues despite fluctuation in capital expenses. expensive things are getting, engagement continues to increase. There was also some data from the Arts and Economic Prosperity, which is through the Americans for the Arts website, which is a really cool website if you're interested in how the arts affects cities, and the city of Boulder from their own grant.

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Okay, so this is from 2022, which is not as recent. So I would guess that the numbers would be higher based on the proximity to the pandemic. But Boulder County has reported that from these studies that attendees spend $33.28 per person per event beyond the ticket price of an event. And 36% of attendees are non-local visitors from outside of Boulder County who spend even more, $46.97 on average. Boulder's art sector is described as over four times larger than a typical city of its size. And the city of Boulder, through their grant process, reports that 55% of local attendees said that without that event, they would have traveled to a different community for similar programming. So people want to stay local, and they want to engage in the arts in their city, and they want to spend money there, which is great. Let's see. Programming also brings non-residents into Louisville, so the economic impact of cultural tourism is up to $692 million. I will say, anecdotally, when I volunteered at the Pride event, I talked to people from Denver, Boulder, Broomfield, so even through that event, People are coming in from out of our city. We are about to see a very big boom in cultural tourism in January with Sundance. People are going to be coming from all over the world for that. So it's important to have visibility.

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I can't keep a stable connection to the Zoom.

Maybe we can continue as we are but after the break we really need it to be broadcasting. So maybe we can take a few minutes to see what we can do.

Okay.

Go ahead.

keep going yes okay okay and then one last thing arts and events programming functions as an engine for local and regional creative industries so supporting local and regional artists this year we have paid what we have paid 12 visual artists 19 musicians and over 10 individuals and companies in creative recording stopped recording in progress entertainment industries like sound technicians, caricature artists, and that translates to about 50 vendors total. This does not include the arts grants. This is separate. Full-time and contract employment have exceeded rates seen since before the pandemic, and personnel costs are outpacing the growth in total employment. There's also been a dramatic drop in federal funding for payment. So donations in this area for the arts remain steady, but that money doesn't come from government budgeting. I mean, the increase in government budgeting, a lot of that has been cut. Some of that is due to like the support that like the pandemic, like COVID area or COVID era support offered. A lot of that has like phased out, but for other reasons, federal funding has been cut for that. spending on the arts and support. And then we collaborate with local organizations, like we've talked about, like businesses, installing a mini art gallery at Acme Fine Goods and the Pride mural in the alley behind the Jasmine Bar. And then just giving an artist a platform to have a partnership and connection. I believe most of the opening sets from the concerts in the park are local to this area. Local-ish. So giving them some exposure as well.

Okay, I think we'll move on to Sarah.

Okay, so just to take a step back,

Okay. So I'm just going to take a step back. Recording stopped. Recording in progress.

Set this up. So I'm going to wax a little bit poetic, a little more on the pathos side. So I know that the header is ecosystem belonging, but I do want to take a step back and set up the framework of what ecosystem actually is so that we can understand it. in the context and the importance of arts and culture. What ecosystem actually means, the term ekos, is the Greek word ekios, which means home. So what this word has actually come to mean is basically a bunch of living creatures in a non-living environment. And you can think of a pond. A pond is actually a really good example. Let's say there's this frog in the pond, and there's a fly, and the sun, and the water. And the frog helps keep the pond clean. Frog eats the fly, et cetera, et cetera. So that's basically the ecosystem definition and the framework that I kind of want us all to think about and use. So this is kind of what happens if a piece of that ecosystem is missing, what happens Think of the question, what happens when the fly is gone? Frog can't eat. There's less thriving. Maybe it decides to leave to find flies elsewhere. It leaves the pond. Maybe the pond becomes dirty because the frog is not doing whatever cleaning frogs do there. Things in the pond carry on, obviously, but not to its full potential in the way that an ecosystem properly, we'll say, thrives. And what I'm trying to explain in this very long analogy is that within an ecosystem home, if something, some piece of that puzzle of the ecosystem is missing, there is a sense of, we can use the word incompleteness. All these puzzle pieces that when you put them together, they create this feeling of completion. I think we've all done a puzzle where we miss one piece and there's that sense of incompleteness. And we have that sense of satisfaction when all this is put together. So as I continue on these other points, I do want you to just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. So the first point, so our program is an opportunity for people to make connections with other people. If anyone has read the book, The Blue Zones, I really recommend it. This is one of the key tenants as to why people in those areas are living so long, but also thriving. If one, if someone here has not heard of it, it's basically five areas around the world where people live, they have the longest lifespans. And basically, one of these K tenants is that they have a sense of connection with their neighbor. But many of these people are actually connecting on the daily, weekly, meeting with people around the community for regular interactions on topics that they find meaningful. And I think the word here is meaningful. They're not just coming to talk about the weather or, you know, someone's not cutting their lawn. The word is meaningful. And this is what our program is there to facilitate and to create. This opportunity for meaningful conversation, interactions, discoveries on topics that people are passionate about and interested in and want to become interested in. My next point is basically bringing public spaces to life. If you go back to the analogy, this would be the pond. Our arts and events are utilizing diverse space, like Mohamed mentioned, from outdoor recreation areas to historical buildings, gathering spaces like our senior center, all the way to microspaces like that little tiny green strip of grass that our micro gallery is on. These locations are in close proximity to our neighborhoods, the schools where we live, to the parks. And it is relevant to note the arts and culture events are contributing to what draws people out of their primary living spaces to utilize these and create these what we call second spaces. These second living spaces, and I say second living spaces because arts and culture is changing grass fields into memories shared with kids at concerts in the park. It's changing the stage at Steinball to a place where I was actually just there. A senior dinner attendee who had never won a raffle in their life had finally won a raffle. It changes these spaces into a place of meaning and connection, and these are the spaces that are now part of those people's lives. They're not just spaces. My next point, so programming makes Louisville unique. And I think this is where I want to bring the frog into the analogy, that if you don't have it, they will go somewhere else to get it. offering something that other surrounding cities don't, opens opportunities to attract residents, new consumers. And to that point, I actually remember the first time that I came to Louisville was actually for a summer cheese and wine, I think it was an event out in Community Park. And then I actually went down with a bunch of people and we went down to Moxie and I had my first It was a croissant thing at Moxie. And I was like, wow, this is a great place for kids. I went to the back. They have the sand pit. I didn't have children at the time. But when my husband and I did have children and were looking for a house, that was the first place we decided to look. And now I bring my kids to Moxie too much. So... Um, just, and I just want to end on an anecdote because I think it's important. Um, I would like to say that as much as we talk about bringing these events to people in our community, I want to emphasize how important it is for people doing the volunteering, doing the performing, the showcasing, the sharing, the hosting. And certainly the board. For myself, I wanted to get involved more deeply in the community. I was new to the area, and I wanted to share what I find amazing and exciting about graphic arts and how to get children excited about them as well. So I wanted to gather connection with my neighbors and things that excite them as well. Just one more story. So at senior dinner, that was last week, there was a volunteer there named John, a young man who had actually recently gone through a divorce. And he said that he was volunteering there to meet new people. He said, you know, I live down the street. My wife in the divorce got the friends and I got the house. So I'm here to bring a bigger part of myself to the community. and where I live. And he's like, I'm here to help out. So actually, by the end, he actually came up to me and he said he had already gotten two numbers from seniors to attend two of their parties that they were hosting. And he is going to one on Thursday. I get so choked up. So this is the ecosystem that the arts and culture has built. This is the ecosystem belonging. And this is just a bunch of little small pieces I put everything together that make it our home.

Thank you.

I do want to mention, I forgot to mention, that one of our board members couldn't make it tonight, and that's Alexander Phillips Messner. I believe that they may have sent you a correspondence to the city council. But Alexander could not be here. Alexander has been very critical and important in helping us uh schedule some of the lgbtq events that we've done last year we did a um we did a trans day of remembrance we did a pride fest this this uh this this year um we'll do the trans day of remembrance again um this year as well so um i wish he could be here to speak with you but he could not make it tonight So I want to bring it back around. I want to talk about what our role is on the CAB, that we are in an advisory position. We help the staff. We help Iris and Maggie. find artists to, you know, do the events that we do. We help them pick the artists, you know, and they trust us. We do the art grants. And we also, you know, I also wanted to also bring up that we do have constraints with resources, both facilities, budget, and these things. So I just think that Iris and Maggie just do, I think they do basically superhero work. I mean, they're doing, I was here, right? I was on this board when it didn't run like this. And so I just, you know, my hat's off to the job that they do. Before I talk a little bit more about that, I do want to just bring up a couple of thoughts I had earlier. while I was listening to the other members talk about the impacts, um, that the arts have. And one of the items that I want to bring up is how critical I believe it is and how important that our events are free and that any citizen can come to our events. They are constrained like at the center for the arts, only 70 people, but you know, they get to come for free. And so today with where costs are going and the cost of entertainment, yeah, good luck getting a ticket to Red Rocks. We're presenting quality events in Louisville that are free, and I think that's important to people, that they can do that. It gives them that opportunity. I host house concerts, and one of the things we always say, we ask for donations, and one of the things we always say is that no one will be turned away for lack of funds. So if you want to come see the show, you can come see the show, as long as it's not over 80 people at the Center for the Arts. Anyway, so to wrap this up, I'm going to have three more points that I want to talk about, and then we'll come back to asking, you know, city council. questions and taking your questions and comments. So the next item I want to talk about is the professionalism and expertise. Events don't happen in a vacuum. There are many, you know, things that have to happen to pull off a quality event. And it all starts with, you know, the staff that you have. They are professionals and their experience You know, this isn't something that's easy to do and pull off and make it look as easy as they do. It takes a special skill set to be able to plan events. And I think they just do a magnificent job of that. Iris and Maggie do a great job of that. Brandy's in on that as well. But there's... It's like I said, it's not just something that anybody could do, right? You can't just drop somebody in and say, go find a band, go find a sound system, make sure the food trucks are here, make sure that you coordinate the food trucks, make sure that we have music that is appropriate for people. And oh, by the way, we're going to do the long run. We're going to do that on the senior ice cream night because I'm an old person, and we like the Eagles. Last year, we had a rock and roll band. It just didn't quite work out, but it was still good. There's a lot of coordination that goes into pulling off these events. If you ever go to an event like Labor Day, I walked by there yesterday, and they're just constantly in motion, making sure everything's working. It's hard to do, and they do a great job of it. I know you guys appreciate them, but I can't say enough how great it is to work You know, like I said, I was here before, so I can't tell you how great it is to work with this team. Um, and the members of the board too are just, you know, this is a great board to work with. I mean, everybody here is professional. Everybody here is engaged. Everybody here has great ideas. It's a wonderful board that we have, um, in the city. And so, um, that's pretty much all I want to say about, um, uh, expertise and professionalism. Um, And so I think, you know, and along with that, being able to coordinate an event and pull an event off is the safety, you know, concerns of it too. And if people don't feel safe, they won't come out to an event. And our events are packed. Those concerts in the park are wonderful. In the past, we didn't have a police officer on duty. last couple of years we have, and that is a big plus in my mind because we do have things happen. We had people fire up a barbecue in the park. Can they do that? Well, I don't think it should be our job to tell them they can't, so it's nice to have that member there. We have had people get injured. Kids fall off bikes. Things like that happen. So it's wonderful to have that. People feel safe coming to our events, and I think that's important. The last thing I'm gonna talk about is support. Next slide. Yeah, support. So we've talked to you about what we do. We've talked to you about the impact of it. We've talked to you about what the board's role in that is, what each, you know, the staff, what the staff is doing. We've talked about resources. We've talked about venues. We've talked about equipment, all of the things that we have. So when it comes to support, what we would like to do is advocate for a few things. staffing. As you're aware, it's been said by me a couple of times, you know, this is a staff of 1.5 FTEs. And they're doing great work. And I think if we had two full-time people, we could do so many great things. Because as it is right now, I will tell you, I think it's at capacity. Now, I'm not going to speak for Iris, but I'm going to say I think it's at capacity. And it would be extremely difficult to add anything moving forward, any events, or expand events even. So budget, you guys are aware of what, you know, we know what the budget is. We know what the budget concerns are. I know that staff has already talked to you about budget. So we're just going to say we advocate more money all the time. I've been here before to ask for that. So we always advocate more money for the arts. Interdepartmental collaboration. This is a big one that, you know, I'm going to take just a couple of things like public art installation, for example. And this involves multiple departments in the city. This involves operations. It might involve parks and rec. It involves arts and events. So there has to be this collaboration. There has to be this dance, this synchronization. I'll give you an example of one of the first, I think it was a couple of years ago, a concert in the park. And at the end of the concert, I stayed behind to help the sound people break down, because I don't have a life, and so I stayed late. So I stayed to help the sound people break down, and the sprinklers came on. And they're like going... And they're coming toward their equipment, their sound equipment. This is tens of thousands of dollars of PA stuff. And it was like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? I had a cooler, because I bring water for the artists. I had a cooler, and I sat on it. I put the cooler over the sprinkler and just sat on it. called Iris, I think it was Iris. Anyway, we got it taken care of, and then the coordination happened, right? But, you know, that was just a simple thing, but that could have had, you know, dire consequences. So we've got to just, you know, there's got to be this interdepartmental collaboration. And I know the departments here, they all work together really well. Just saying, this is needed to make this work well. um space we've talked about space um so effectively you know we don't do these we don't do virtual uh events they're all live events and so they need they need a space they need a park they need um They need a performance hall. They need a center for the arts. They need Steinbaugh. So space is important. And I know that Steinbaugh's got some redesign coming up, we think. And so that's going to happen. And then I'll just end it really quickly on infrastructure. Of course, we need to have infrastructure to do all of this. I see I've only got five minutes left. So what I'm going to do at this point So I'm gonna wrap this section up and then I'm going to come back to our discussion with council. And I know we've only got five minutes, but hopefully we can expand on that a little bit more. So I guess our question tonight is, We've told you what we do. We've told you the impacts of it. And there's some quotes up here. There's some quotes up here that people did about the concerts in the park. So these are quotes that we collected. But so what can we do? What can you do as the council to help us, you know, continue to expand and move forward on these events? You know, costs are going up so much. Fourth of July, the budget that we typically have for Fourth of July today will pay for fireworks. And that's it. So. That was a great event, but some decisions are going to have to be made. And so my question is, what can you do to help us continue to provide this and expand on it? So I'll stop it at that. Thank you for listening to us.

Just one. One thing before we answer that, I just cannot say enough how impressive what you've all done. has been. I mean this, I and probably others know about these things but put all together and hearing your descriptions both of the staff and I really appreciate your comments about staff because they are jewels here on this but you are too and the working board is Really, really impressive. So before we do anything else, I want to make sure you all know that.

Thank you.

That's the heavy load that you're carrying on this is very much appreciated. Where do we start on answering the question you raised? I can ask for council comments on this. Go ahead.

Well, I will first add my thanks to all of you for everything that you've done. This has been an amazing board with amazing staff that have accomplished amazing things, and I really appreciate all your efforts. I don't know what we can do to help with the issues that you have, but I'm wondering if there's any kind of... fundraising foundation or group that could be specifically for the cultural board that could publicly go out and say can you help us that would be my only suggestion I think we've tried some of that

um, tried to do some, you know, sponsorships and different levels of sponsorships. So, um, but that's, that's more of a staff thing. I mean, we can advocate for that, you know, but yeah, but thank you. Thank you for that. And I do think that's a great idea that we, you know, if we could have some type of, you know, funding, public funding that would help with the events and more sponsorships.

Well, and not, not just sponsorships, but individuals who would like to donate to your efforts.

Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you. That's a great idea.

Councilmember Heffner and then Mayor Pretent. Yeah, thank you all so much for being here and all the great material and appreciation, not only of your group, but of staff who we value at least as highly as you do. The only thing I want to share is there's at least, I think, some preliminary good news on budget, that a few things like 4th of July, and I think, I'm trying to remember what the other ones, there's a few items that I think we've gotten into the budget. It's probably not all of the items that we could possibly want, but it's a few of the critical ones, and we're certainly, I know city management have sharpened their red pens and are looking hard for additional money elsewhere.

Thank you for that. Appreciate it.

Yeah, so first, thank you for everything you do. I think you've seen me and my daughter frequently at the events. She's the wait, there's no Zoom kid on the video for Louisville LEMS. So very much appreciate the work that you all do. I will echo Councilmember Heffner's comments regarding the budget. I think as everyone's aware, we're having to make some challenging decisions this year. It's not unique to the work that you do, and it is in no way a reflection of our value of the work you do. So when I hear the word, how do we continue to expand, really what I'm thinking about over the next few years is how do we continue to maintain the high-quality services and and events that you all provide. That's fair. With the staff that we have and then let's plan for a future state where we can maybe expand on that because one of the things that we have to consider over the next year and beyond is the impact of Sundance. That's one thing that I think us as a council would love to see you all collaborate with staff and interdepartmental efforts because that's in the near future, right? Let's get through that, maintain the events we have, and then let's start planning on how we can expand from there. But very much appreciate the work you do, and I'm very, very excited to see what's coming in 2027 and beyond. Thank you.

So I would mention Sundance. I would say I think Sundance would be more likely to come here and spend their Sundance dollars if we had a very vibrant arts. And that's just my little pitch. I understand budgets, but I think they would be more likely to say, wow, these guys really got it going on. We want to go help them out. So thank you.

We are up against our time. What... What I think you can count on from us is that we are focused in making dollars go as far as we can. One thing that's really important that I think the just suggested is focusing efforts on maintaining what we have. helping us with what the hard decisions might be and how we can potentially make the events that we have even perhaps better. But we will continue to keep these discussions going. We've got a discussion about events coming up. And I hope you'll be a part of that. The date for that one is, do we know? 15th? Yeah. So it's coming up quick. And we'll continue that conversation as we go. Thank you again for all your work and all the work folks did last weekend, which was superhuman.

Thank you. Thank you and thank you for having us and thank you for your kind words of encouragement and support that you've given. I do understand about budgets and I think maintaining the level of excellence is a better way of saying it. And I know we've already made some decisions about some events like the block party for next year. So I know those decisions are going to be made. But I appreciate it and thank you very much about talking about the budget. um you know and where some things are and i know we won't get everything we want but um you know appreciate you all so much i know you guys do i know it's hard work what you do and mostly people just come here and complain so thank you all so much thank you yes but i just wanted to say thank you i didn't have a chance to present but um

in where there are opportunities as the city expands, does different things, even thinking about a wall as an opportunity for public art, thinking about, oh, this is a great space. We're talking about budgets, but I think there are plenty of opportunities where we don't have to spend dollar per dollar on things that are considered art. And so I would challenge us to think about and have people in the room who are thinking about these things and centering Centering some of the decisions and the conversations on on these things. Thank you for that consideration.

Thank you very much Thanks Thanks for coming I think some of us are sticking around for training now, aren't we indeed these two Why don't we take five and we'll do a little work on the audio visual front.

All right, everybody to the table, please.

The next is we've got some training, and I understand Jeff is going to be doing the introduction.

So let's go. Welcome, everybody. For those of you that I've not met, my name is Jeff Monzingo. I'm the Human Resources Director here. It's my honor tonight to present our guest speaker. As we've prioritized getting harassment training throughout the organization and to our boards and commissions and elected officials, we had a real opportunity to bring in a good friend. This is Chuck Pasaglia. I've known Chuck for well over 20 years through his work as a local employment law attorney, through advising, investigations, and lots of trainings like this. And as I've told Chuck before, he was actually one of the driving forces of when I did a career change mid-life to get into HR. He's got a knack for making topics like this interesting. He's one of the best presenters you'll ever find. Like I say, a well-known employment law attorney, a naval vet, just a fantastic human being and probably the best presenter you'll ever hear. So without further ado, Chuck, the floor is yours. Jeff, thanks a lot.

Everybody, great to meet you. I was supercharged by the Cultural Advisory Board meeting. The measure of pride you all have in your community cannot be overstated. So it's also, this program is a nice follow-up to that. I just share with you, what really resonated with me were the comments by the members of the board that, in my own personal view, these classes would be unnecessary if people understood that every human being is worthy of dignity and respect The day we compromise that, we retreat from it, these conflicts often manifest themselves. And so your commitment to your community, to each other, makes this topic very easy to discuss for me. I assure you one of us is going to have a good time. It's probably going to be me, though, just so you know. The other thing is we're on a short time agenda. I encourage questions. This is a very complex area. Ironically, a friend of mine, colleague, and an expert in this area is your mayor. So I have a high bar to reach to do this effectively. And so I'm also pleased. If anybody has questions in this area, I encourage them. This is an area where a little bit of knowledge will set you free. It will improve your ability to interact with others and this program is specifically focused on employment related issues and your relationship if you're on the council or a board with the very staff. I should also share with you, not only have I known Jeff Munzingo for many, many years, I know that Diana and the staff are committed to this topic. So it's just helpful to have a receptive audience for this program. So you're already more than halfway there to doing right by your own community. So let's talk through it. A couple things. I've had many lives as an attorney, as Jeff mentioned. I was in a huge law firm. I was in-house counsel for an organization. I've been on my own giving advice to employers, doing workplace investigations, which I still continue to do, and primarily doing these programs, literally more than 3,000 of them. So if it sounds like I've talked about this a lot, Talked about this a lot and so keep up because I tend to move through it quickly, especially in a short time frame and I want to make sure you get a lot out of it. So my contact information is here. You're always able to reach out to me. I encourage that. Don't charge for that. People ask me questions. I want you to be aware of that, and it's encouraging that we can talk. A couple things about the program itself. I do 10 minutes of an introduction just to get people settled into this conversation. First, if you've heard this before, please don't be surprised, but I like to remind people These slides are for you. I'm not going to read them all verbatim. I encourage you to have them. I make them available to you. I stopped killing trees many years ago. And so you can have them electronically if you desire. But I'd like to remind people of two things. Number one, please, please, please understand everybody sees the world through their own lens. I can't emphasize this enough that we all harbor our own conscious and unconscious biases. Quite frankly, I'm receptive to this. We're all unique. But I try to remind people in this regard, even though you've figured it all out, you feel like you're a well-constructed human being and you're doing good on Earth from time to time, please, please, please remember not everybody is in the same place that you are. Not everybody feels in the same manner heard. treated equitably in our society. And so you have to have a little bit of empathy in order to address this very complex area. It's to your own benefit, I assure you, that if you could just let go of a little bit of your own biases, tend to see things from other people's perspectives, this subject matter is very easy to understand and, quite frankly, embrace the concepts. Next thing, let me make clear. Thanks for having this session. Whether you know it or don't know it, I have five rules. I've spent a lifetime talking about a complex area of the law and making it very simple and understandable. There's only five things you kind of have to know. Two of them are on this first slide. And so the first thing is please know that nobody is in any way on the hot seat. I think most people, especially for an optimist like me, a person who brings good cheer, I think people are awesome. That's why I get to teach the class is I'm a people person. I think most people want to get along. I think most people want to be in relationships. I think most people believe in their community. And I think most people in many ways just want to thrive, flourish for them and their families. But you gotta know, nobody, as well constructed as you are, is awesome every day. It's just a reality of life and work. And it's important that people understand that, can't emphasize this enough, it's the lack of regard of our own conduct and behavior, is even though you think you're acting reasonably towards others, You might have lost a little bit of perspective, the ball. You might be more aggressive than you intended to be. And I want you to know that drives a lot of this because the first rule is up here. Intentions are irrelevant in this area of the law. It's critical that you understand the difference between civil liability and criminal offenses. This is an area where intentions simply... are not a required element of the problem. In other words, people with extraordinarily good intentions, people who just want to be heard, people who have strong feelings and opinions, by the way, there's a place for all of those, they're not a defense in any way. In fact, sometimes your good humor, your strident communication, your relatively aggressive or passionate manner can really land badly on other people. And it's important you understand rule number one. It's your impact on other human beings that drives every outcome here, period. The beginning and end of the entire formula for success here is it's all about impact, how others receive you. And it's important. A lot of people are blind to this. Quite frankly, many people don't care because in a world that's relatively self-centered and narcissistic, For many people, it's always about whom? Themselves. And so you just got to know this rule drives every other rule is it's important that people recognize it's not about you every day. It's about how other people are willing to tolerate you from time to time. The other rule is why I really law, I do this a lot. I really laud communities for having this training for their leaders. Whether you know it or not, in 2023, Colorado's legislature passed landmark legislation with a number of critical employment law principles now in play. And the first and most important one is Colorado joined the states of California and New York and simply lowered the bar on a statewide basis of what constitutes workplace harassment. This is so important for people who are relatively new to work or work rules to understand. We have a lower threshold. What is that threshold? It's one of my five rules. First one is intentions are irrelevant. Impact matters. Second one is no longer does workplace misconduct have to be severe, which means physically or emotionally harmful, nor does it have to be pervasive or frequent. In other words, it's reading between the lines. You're all smart. You understand how the world works. The bar is so low that relatively few and even one negative interaction can lay claim to potentially someone scrutinizing your behavior and challenging it. And legally, holding someone accountable for their behavior. Please know that it's an important rule. We're a different vibe than other places that people work. There's particular attention to this. I'll highlight the other changes in the context of this class, but that's the most important one for me, which goes to you. So I get a lot of questions about this as the class is short. Can I just give you some legal truisms right up front? The first thing is please keep in mind, if you're a superintendent on an advisory board or you're in the city council, you are not employees of the city itself. That's important because elected officials and board members are not necessarily of themselves protected by these civil rights laws. You're not employees who share or receive these protections, except how you decide to regulate yourself in this regard. But the other side of the coin is if you serve on a board, if you're in the city council is all the employees of the city are protected from the leaders that they serve. That includes you. And I wanna make that clear to you about the importance of this training is you just need to know if you're a leader within the city that the staff is protected. And I will tell you today, some people are not considerably courteous. Today, some people are very strong in their interactions with others. And it's important you understand you may be overstepping if you don't understand the basic principles of respect demanded by these rules. Just know that. Second thing is, and it's a big deal to me, if you've been a leader, you should know this. People will get the behavior that you expect or that you tolerate. So if you, this is much like parenting, if you exhibit the behavior that is disrespectful, that is unbridled aggression towards others, don't be surprised if people often engage in similar behavior towards you. And so you're the first line of defense for the city. to hold people accountable for their own conduct or behavior. I'll talk you through that if you have any questions about it, but it's important that you know that. And I like to remind people. Next thing is the higher up you go in the organization, the greater liability of the organization for misconduct directed towards others. So that's important when you have leadership roles, when you chair you might be held to a higher standard than someone who is lower on the food chain when it comes to their responsibilities. Last thing, don't exactly know who engineered this training, but I'll tell you what, you're being extraordinarily proactive and properly managing risk. If you're not aware of this, right now nine states in the United States now compel this training as a matter of statewide law. Many communities, larger cities, have mandated this training. So you are way ahead of the learning curve of other people, but you are joining the ranks of the many people who are now required to do this. So thank you. It really is your time. is extraordinarily well spent because this is becoming more of an obligation for everybody. Illinois, for example, They have a requirement as a matter of state law that all elected representatives receive this training. And so this is what we're talking about. Getting ahead of this problem before someone makes you get ahead of this problem is always prudent decision making and good risk management. Here's what I'd like you to get out of the program. I want you to know if you have any interactions with this city, the people who do good work for this city, including yourselves, you should know what your role and responsibilities are to address the problem of disrespectful behavior, especially disrespectful behavior that could impact someone's work within this city, the good efforts of everybody here. So I want you to think about three things. Again, it's a short, fused training, but I want you to think like a leader for a little bit. One is, what do you do if you see someone who potentially is engaging in disrespectful behavior? What's my responsibility to engage that particular problem? Number two, what if someone comes to you? This happens quite a bit, actually, on boards, in the elected ranks, where someone comes to you and raises a concern. I entertain these questions on a weekly basis. And do you have a responsibility to engage this problem? And then finally, of course, most importantly, what I do is modern-day self-defense. The more you know these rules, the more you understand your rights in the workplace, who is better equipped to protect you? you so for the modern workplace warriors cubicle commandos I thank you for doing this class because everyone should know their own rights to better protect themselves and of course by extension be an ally to protect other people who are being mistreated so let's do right by the city can I just give you the last couple comments please note this I teach this class apolitically I say this at the local government level because politics drives a lot of the conflicts that I'm going to address here. I want you to know that I am good with people's differing political views. It's important that you understand that. There is a place for differing views, and I want you to be aware. I like to talk about this, though, is that please know everybody brings their own baggage with them wherever they go. We're all a creation unique. We've all lived a life. We've all had experiences that come to bear, and they frame our judgments. Can I just make sure you're a success right now since I've done this for a lifetime? This slide is the catalyst for most conflicts in my world. Maybe 90% of them. It seems strange to say it. We haven't even talked about the law yet, which is where we're going to go. But in my world, this is where it all happens. Here is what I'd like to describe to you and to work on as an organization, individually or collectively. Not only do we see the world through our own lens, but we create judgments about the world around us through our lens of experience. That's not a problem. That's, quite frankly, part of the evolutionary experience. The problem I have found, and again, this is just a lifetime of reflecting and observing this, is that we're a pretty darn judgy lot, and we have a natural tendency to judge other people exclusively through the narrow frame of our experience. And this is where all the conflicts lie, period, is that we tend to be much like a progressive commercial, talking a lot like our parents, a lot. And so I'm just gonna tell you if we could just consider in a world of tremendously conflicting opinions, restraining some of those a bit. Don't be so judgy so quickly. Could you engender better will between you and others? The answer for me and people like me is yes. Just know that it's important. This is where the conflicts lie. What are those conflicts? I'm just going to set you up for it. I do this every day. The fault lines in our society are extraordinarily great. Number one, agree or disagree. Do you think there's a little bit less civility around us than even in recent years? Everyone agrees with you. I have to reassure you. This is studied intensely. People think there is a coarseness running through our society. There's a coarseness dealing with the treatment of others. The internet is an accelerant of this type of conflict that is much like just throwing gasoline on a fire. And so that is important you understand that. The second fault line? is physical contact. There are a lot of people who are personal space invaders. It's part of their culture. It's part of their perspective. I need you to know there's a solid rule here. At work, are you ready to hear this? You have the right to not be touched. And by the way, your parents likely told you this when you were a child. Keep your hands to your... The rule is unchanged. And by the way, it's well settled in terms of workplace law that people have the right to be free from unwelcome intrusions of their most intimate spaces of their body. By the way, does everyone expect that? Yes, we all do, is you don't touch people unless you have permission to touch them. And if you ask for permission to touch them, it's super creepy. And so you should not even go there in the first place, which goes to all the political debates in our society. They cause workplace conflicts. Because people bring their politics to work now. By the way, I personally believe there's a place for that. I think people want to express themselves and their views. I think there should be a forum for people to be heard in every environment. I have three adult daughters all in the workplace. Guess what? They want to know if you're some kind of a racist or not. Really? They do. Whereas people from my generation, we just wanted to pay our mortgage at the fourth of the month. Like... And so for me, don't need to know a lot about you as long as we're good. Now my kids are entirely different political actors in the world. They want to know. Can we sustain a relationship, overcome our differences, and most importantly, do you respect the fact that I hold you to a different standard than you may hold yourself and others to? And by the way, they, like most younger people than me, have been trained to do that, command respect, whereas I am from a generation where I was trained to give respect to And by the way, they're both worthy endeavors. But I will tell you, the emphasis for people much younger than me is please respect me. And then finally, of course, there is no conversation about politics that doesn't tread into issues of gender, issues of race. Issues of, I mean, I heard the eloquent comments in the cab about these issues. By the way, very important for you to understand, they're critical for people to commune together. Well, they're also live wires when it comes to civil rights protections. And then finally, a comment was also made, that's why I really appreciate this training, coming right after that meeting, is if you're unaware, And both were referenced in your excellent presentation. The population is getting significantly older. What are going to be the cultural needs and expectations of them? And by the way, should they be heard as far as types of music, art that they experience? That is a growing population. If you're unfamiliar, America is a growing older society. The 2020 census informed us about 48% of the country's population is over the age of 40. That's an increasing number. This is the highest it's ever been in the US history. So this is a greater group of protected persons. If you're unfamiliar, once you reach the threshold age of 40, Under our employment laws, federal and Colorado state laws, you receive protection from mistreatment, including discrimination and harassment, once you've reached that age. Interestingly, younger people, we all know that 50 is a new 40 anyway, so don't lose your mind over this, but younger people than 40 are not protected under these civil rights laws, but they're gonna increasingly be a minority, and likely vulnerable to potentially being mistreated by others. A comment was already made by your peer about the disabled community in which the United States has. If you're unfamiliar, this is the largest population of protected persons in the United States. Estimates are that one in five people are covered by a law called the Americans with Disabilities Act. This population isn't only protected from harm, but most importantly, is entitled to accommodation based on their physical or mental disability. And not only, and of course many of you know this, communities. also have, under a different title of these civil rights laws, a commitment to protect and allow full access to community resources in this population. I know you're all well aware of that, likely talk to this issue, but please remember, this is a massive population of people who for many years have either been silenced or simply marginalized. They are firmly protected, growing, and you have to understand your responsibilities towards this population. So it's important that people get their place. I'm not going to talk about how I think these conflicts manifest themselves. I alluded to that earlier. But I want to talk a little bit about the law. Can I do it the old-fashioned way, the Socratic method? This is an example that the federal government gave to us two years ago. Interestingly, in recent times, they've rescinded these rules. Much to my regret, they were very helpful guidance. But I like the learning points, and I continue to use them, because this is just a good example that, remember I said there's five rules? This allows me, in five minutes, to explain the five rules. It's in the context of a workplace problem. By the way, a complaint that could be raised to any of you And what would be your responsibilities to engage this problem? So I took it verbatim. So if your names are Sandra or Fabian, please take no offense. Apparently, the government has you in their sights. But I didn't change or alter the problem in any way. So Sandra is a Christian. Fabian, Sandra's supervisor, is a self-described spiritual guru who sincerely believes that he must help people transcend the Judeo-Christian belief system. Everything, the entire class can be taught through this problem, by the way. It's important you understand it. Fabian regularly makes comments to Sandra denigrating Christian tenets or beliefs, the foundations of Christianity. He asks probing questions of her faith. during the job and work experience. And then interestingly, he has a strong hope and expresses it to her that she will join his lunchtime lectures on religion. Remember, he's in a supervisory capacity. He's a leader in the organization. And we learn that while he says he would never require employees to attend these meetings or embrace his views, you notice that he appears to keep some score, that the people who bend a knee to his views appear to move farther ahead. People who are not as receptive appear to be being left farther and farther behind. Everyone's likely experienced something like this in their work life, where you're on the home team or you're not, and you often wonder why you're being separated from the pack. So this is important. to talk about this experience for a couple of reasons. One, I'm sure you all agree, everyone knows, I'm sure you're well attentive to this. Do you think this supervisor is clearly overstepping the bounds of reasonable behavior? Yeah, I mean, I think we're all there, right? But here's where the conversation really starts. Why people don't understand this concept of workplace disrespect, inclusive of harassment. The question that I ask for anybody, and again, it's a good group here to just do this quickly. People are viewing the program online. I'll take any questions about this as well. When, if ever... In your mind, did this behavior become hostile towards Sandra? When is there an element of hostility in this behavior? And I'll tell you to help you, the problem of workplace harassment is typically described by a legal term of art called a hostile work environment. It's a reference to the required elements of this law that the behavior has to be sufficiently hostile in order to alter someone's work experience and create an abusive or hostile environment for a person working. Yeah, I love the comment, if you didn't hear it, is when he said he hopes she will transcend or participate or like when you have to become involved in this, that appears to be keeping score, that I need to know what team you're on right now at some point. Did everybody get that? Other thoughts on this? Where is a particular hostility addressed by this behavior?

I would say when he's denigrating her,

So denigrating Christian beliefs, we all get it. It's like, you don't sign up for that when you go to work. It's not your job description to be an apologist for your faith. Tell me about your mad, sorcerous ways is not really an expectation if anybody goes to work on any given day in this country. People may want to volunteer that. They certainly may want to probe it. But it's not part of your job. It's certainly not a part of your government service that you have to apologize or defend the faith. Caleb.

I mean, I think right at the beginning, if someone knows that I am self-described as a spiritual guru who must help people transcend the Judeo-Christian belief system, like right there, I don't work there. He hasn't even talked to me yet. But the fact that that's a known thing about my supervisor makes this a hostile work environment. I do not want to work somewhere. where that's a known thing about my supervisor before he even speaks to me.

Because it raises the question. This is why I do this every day, especially for leaders. Imagine being Sandra and wondering, how is my performance evaluation going to be constructed if I don't play this the right way, knowing this about my particular boss? And so are you already apprehensive about what are the consequences of Anything I do here, I love hearing that. First, there's so much packed into this response just legally. It's why I like teaching the class in these short increments, because I think people can learn that this area of the law quickly. in these examples. So the first thing you have to realize is, remember I told you there are five rules? I'll just remind you. You can see them in the material, so no one has to write this down. But the first rule, of course, is intentions are irrelevant to your good point. Could literally Fabian believe he's doing the world a better place by trying to enlighten people, bring them differing religious perspectives? He's well informed in his own belief system. People are well informed often when they educate others. Do you think he could have the best of intentions trying to liberate people from their views? But does it matter? It doesn't. Is that you're still held accountable, even if you have the best religious intentions, even if you're constructed to believe it. Yes, please.

So two points. First is, in this case, I think him trying to explain his intentions only makes it so deeper. The second is, and the problem started before the story started. Based on what you said on the first slide, this becomes hostile and a source of employment law risk the moment she feels uncomfortable, correct?

Correct. I have to tell you.

Can I interrupt for just a second? If you're going to speak, yeah, you need to grab a mic. Otherwise, the people online can't hear and I feel like they're missing out. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. And if you just, if you, yeah, please clarify the two points.

I'd appreciate that. I love them, but I guess if the light is green, the mic is on. Okay. So the first point was, um, I think his intentions are a bigger part of the problem and he digs his hole deeper if he tries to explain what he's trying to do. The second is, um, There's nothing up there that strikes me as right, and I've worked in faith-based institutions. And the third is, based on what you said on an early slide, this becomes problematic and potentially litigatable and an employment law risk at the moment she feels she's at risk, which probably started on the day that she went to work.

Tremendously problematic. Good comment. I'll tell you why. It really conveys all the learning principles that I intend for people to learn from this problem. First, intentions are irrelevant. He could be well-intended, but he's literally digging his grave deeper, much like when someone says, I was drunk at the holiday party. It's not a defense. It's an admission of wrongdoing. When someone says, get a load of this joke. I heard it on TV last night. You're simply admitting there's no room for miscommunication here. You're making it clear that you're doubling down on potential offensive behavior. Please go ahead.

So just a question though. Isn't this a conflict of rights? Because he has a right to be who he is as long as he is not behaving in a way that would induce harassment. Fantastic point.

Goes to the second thing. Remember rule number one was it's intentions, its impact, not intentions. Rule number two, we already talked about the bar is low. So we're going to talk about that hostile thing. I really loved your comments. From the get-go, this is problematic. We'll explain that under these rules. The third, though, you raise a good point, is first, I try to convey to people in leadership roles, everybody working is protected from mistreatment under civil rights laws, in particular in seven critical ways. What's really important about your comment is most employees hold most and sometimes all of these protections simply by the fact of their existence. and or their own cultural upbringing or their own religious traditions that they hold. So to your good point, so this class is gonna be done in like literally 10 minutes. So keep these coming because here's the rule there is everyone's protected based on their race, which we'll talk about, color of their skin, their religious beliefs and practices, Their national origin, which, by the way, is where you or your ancestors hail from, including any cultural traits or traditions that you hold, the fact you may have an accent because English is not your first language, your cultural holds a lot. That's why you have interactions with the cultural advisory committee, which are critical because it's a wide-ranging term. You express that in your own brief, and it's important that people recognize that, I think, Sarah was the one who really burrowed in on that considerably. So it's a nice follow on to the presentation. The fifth one is gender, which we'll talk about. The sixth one is age 40 and older. And of course, I mentioned the burgeoning population of persons with disabilities is the seventh core protection. Wait, there's more in Colorado, which I'll touch on. But those are critical for your understanding. To your good point, In this problem, is Sandra the Christian protected as a matter of her religious beliefs and practices? Is that true? Even though Christianity, if you're unaware, is the majority or dominant religion in the United States, more than 70% of Americans still identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. Is every one of them protected in their work experience? So our civil rights laws protect the majority to the same degree as they protect the minority. To your better point, is Fabian protected as some sort of self-described non-denominational spiritual guru, which is of non-traditional viewpoint? Is Fabian equally protected That's why our civil rights laws can be relatively difficult for people to navigate. No one is ascendant over the other. Who's more protected, the Christian or the spiritual guru? Neither. The rule of law in this country, that's why I love this stuff. The rule of law that this country demands, these laws are fixed under the Equal Treatment Clause of the U.S. Constitution, the Equal Protection Clause. Please know that. Can I tell you whether it's meaningful to me? So my own family, my grandparents were Italian immigrants. I knew my grandfather came to this country in the last century. I knew him well. And he would say things like, and this is long before I was ever an attorney, he would say things like, you know why America is a great country? Carlo, because he didn't speak English very well. He said, because in this country, no one is better than anyone else. That is the most true statement of the equal protection clause that someone without an education, which he had none, can express. These laws demand equality of treatment. By the way, if you're curious about this, could an employee actually in their free time during lunch have religious educational experiences? Could they pick up religious literature? Could they inform themselves and inform other people who welcome this? I want to get to your great point. Could they have that even here at lunch? Yeah, if we let employees go to lunch across the street, if we let employees wrestle around in MMA fighting in some gym during their lunch hour, if we let employees garden during lunch, could employees educate themselves religiously of their own free will? And do we have to accord them equal treatment with other employees in the use of their free time away from work? That gets me to the next rule. Oh, by the way, I'll talk about religion in just a moment again, because you might have more questions about this. But no one is ascendant over the other. It's important that people recognize it. The law demands accommodation or compromise in some respects. So no one protection can be ascendant over another. This is part of the DEI debate. that has received particular attention is that you must know there can be no preference. You can certainly, and by the way, I'm an advocate for DEI programs. I'm happy to discuss that with anyone at greater depth. I think these are necessary for diverse and inclusive environments where people feel they can fit in, move ahead, they belong. But you can't preference any particular group as a matter of law. And so the next rule is your rule, is that, so rule three, everyone's protected. Know everyone's protected, not just you, but everybody you encounter. But the fourth rule is the law is triggered when the experience is unwelcome. And who decides what's an unwelcome experience? always the person on the other end of the experience, the far side. In your example, you said it. When Sandra finds this to be offensive, why is that a big deal and why are you here? Because bystanders have rights. So Dietrich and I could be best friends. We could have long-term relationship with each other. We could have wide-ranging religious or political discussions amongst each other. There's nothing unlawful about that. There's nothing unfavorable about that. We're two adults having an active voluntary and welcome experience. Under this area of the law, Why is it important training? Because you've got to know every government space has eyes and ears, including members of the public. And could people on the periphery either engage in offense or direct offense towards others? And it's important that people know that, that people on the sidelines are equally protected from people having the opportunity conduct or behavior that's drawing scrutiny. This rule is critical. I have two corollaries to it. Please know that you're not the master of your own universe. It's other people's tolerance of you that drives outcomes here. That's always been the experience. That's why people's marriages are sustained is the willingness of someone to tolerate you long enough. Same with work relationships. And so I try to remind people in this area is people who are very adept understand and can read the room Is someone not having a good time here right now? And that's what triggers this problem. We're good if we're good. By the way, the other rule here is unless somebody on the periphery takes offense, the other rule is relationships change frequently. This is often in my world, I investigate this heavily, souring. or non-consensual relationships are the catalyst for many complaints in this area. Loved you like a brother yesterday. Now every word that comes out of your mouth is clashing symbols to me, and I can't tolerate you one iota longer. And can people's relationships change? What do you think? You're all human beings. And people need to know that. By the way, why I like doing this problem and what you all intimated about, I'm going to come back to Cable's point about this, is what's the last rule? It's this problem with the word hostile. I've been doing this a long time. I try to bring this issue to the attention of many people. This is not my first rodeo, but it's in a lot of train wrecks that have manifested themselves under these rules. It's a fundamental misperception of what constitutes hostile. Can I tell you why this area is a problem for people to embrace and understand? Many people, when they hear a hostile work environment, they use their own. Remember I told you everybody sees the world through their own lens of experience? They use their own threshold for hostility. You think that's hostile? When I started here, we stoned people to death. It was rough. And so people have a natural tendency to play this Remember I told you the problem, the most important slide in the slide deck. They use their definition. I heard it on TV last night and the laugh track never stopped. It's got to be okay. And they simply don't understand. That's not the rule. The last rule is the pure threshold. That's why we're having this. And I love being in front of the city council because I do this a lot in front of city councils. under this area of the law, the standard of what constitutes hostile is what would a reasonable person under the circumstances of working at the city. Centric to the experience here. what would they consider to be unreasonably offensive, hostile for someone who has this experience? Can I be clear? A couple things about that. If you didn't get the memo, and remember I told you, every human being's worthy of dignity and respect, this isn't a steel mill, it's not an MMA fight, this is service to the community, you're all pride-filled about it, and so what should a member of the public reasonably expect of you? I don't care how weird you are. I don't care how cranky you are. I don't care what you've got going on in you. The public should demand the highest levels of behavior. I think you're modern-day knights, K-N-I-G-H-T-S. You're committed to the community. And by the way, the higher up you are serving the community, do you fall farther from the pedestal? What do you think? Yeah, you chose this. It's good for you. You should hold yourself to a high standard because you're so prideful. The people who live in this community should uphold this standard. So I love it. And here's why it's a big deal. Guess who sets that standard of what people should reasonably expect from their experience at this city? Does anyone know the answer? Litigated heavily. Who decides what is hostile under that last rule? And don't tell me a jury because that's correct. I know you're thinking that. Don't tell me a jury. I will share with you why we're having this session. Organizational leadership and this city council determines that Starts from the senior level of leadership. That includes everybody who serves in a leadership role within the organization. It percolates down. So the council direct staff and their expectations are resonant in the staff. And it's important that people know that. And that is the expectation is set by this. Everyone listening to this program. is important, you fundamentally understand that. And the day people forget that, I mean, I know that we look at politicians now askance because their behavior can be so unbridled and they have lost some of the perspective about being respectful towards others. But I need you to know, in the real world, leaders are held to a high standard of how they should interact with other human beings. And in the world of work, That is guided by this. Any questions about that? It's really important. These five rules drive every outcome for me. They're a part of every investigation I do. These standards are critical. Can I just put some understanding on this? So I kind of use this quickly to guide me through this discussion quickly. So please know, what have we done so far? And I'm happy to entertain questions as we go. Does everybody see the world through their own lens? It's the upper left part of this slide. We all generalize the world around us based on our life experience. Everyone does this. It's part of the friend or foe element of the human experience. We make rash judgments as part of the survivability of our species. We're not the strongest. We're not the fastest. But we certainly are the quickest decision makers and can rationalize Our thoughts. Prejudice is, if you're unfamiliar with this term, prejudgments are the emotions that flow from these stereotypes. Is I love people like that. I can't stand these people. Does everybody, and it's why I'll be honest with you, just as a back story, I believe that this country, please don't take this negatively, needs a bit of therapy. I'm not trying to be impolite. I just think we need to be better at having hard conversations like families often have difficulty doing is we need to have an orchestrated measure of national therapy to talk truly about our differences. But what's the principal impediment? That block. Everybody emotionalizes their experience. And by the way, for obvious reasons, it's their experience. And therefore, it can be a significant impediment. to bridging differences is you haven't lived my life. You don't know what it's like to me. This is why people had some considerable debate in our society about wokeism and the response to wokeism. I do this for a living. The principle criticism of wokeism was I'm tired of people telling me how I should think, act, or behave. To your point, I'm protected too. Where is my voice in this? So people didn't like to be told what they thought they should be thinking at any given time. The other side of the coin is it's led people to be concerned that vulnerable people are now gonna be disregarded and that they're not gonna be heard because people are deaf to the considerations of others. So what matters to me is that you understand it's when you start to treat people differently, when Sandra, her experience is now shifting her away from others. She's not on Fabian's team. That's what triggers these rules. Harassment, if you're unfamiliar, is simply the experience. I'll just be clear. I do this every day. Harassment is discrimination with the pointy end of the stick. It's literally poking the offensive bear in this area. It's the offensive form of treating people differently. So I want you to know the perspective of where we've gone. Can I have this conversation quickly about some of those key rules? First one was yours, and that is everybody's protected. Again, we have enough time to do this in a class this long. Again, questions are most welcome. But I run people through this every day. If you've never heard this in your entire life, it's important you think about it. So race is a protected feature. If you're unfamiliar, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, from which these rights flow, does not define the term race, which is already of some topical interest today because this was intentional. And again, people sometimes have differing views of our Congress, but this was one of those high-minded things that they had at the tip of their attention. They purposely didn't define race because you all went to school. What's the problem with definitions? anyone who took a math class, they are limiting of the meaning of terms. They're finite. They're intended to limit operations. Well, they didn't want to limit the meaning of this term. This has already caused people considerable misunderstanding. When they start to question issues of race, you're already way over your skis. You're about to take a header because you're already misunderstanding this concept. So by what's included here? People who identify themselves as being Caucasian or white, such as myself. Someone who is black, someone who is Native American, someone who is Asian. But of course, other groups, for example, people who identify as being of mixed or many races. We have an extraordinarily diverse country, and many people of differing races, of course, have joined together through their family experience and created children. And they have... identity with more than one race. It's reasonable and, quite frankly, common. Another example is difficult issues. For example, Judaism, I'm sure you're well aware, is a religion of people. But at some level, if you go back thousands of years, could you agree, and our courts certainly agree, is it a race of people? What do you think? Yeah, it makes sense. There's differing considerations here for these views. So race is all inclusive. It's everybody, the majority and the minority. Please understand that no one gets preferential treatment of others. Equality is good enough for me. Sometimes people struggle just to get there. Next one is skin color. This is separate but related to race for obvious reasons. Most of our racial identity is often part of our skin color, skin tone, skin complexion. No mystery here. I use the word white to describe myself. That is not my race. That is my skin color. But it's the common way that people identify or view their own identity. Please know everyone's protected here. Is a person who describes himself as white protected from another person who's white being racially offensive towards them? What do you think? Yeah, there's no one left out. Is someone who's black protected from another person who's black overstepping racial bounds? Of course. And of course, cross-racial mistreatment is the more common example in our society of offense in this area. Third one is religion. You really hit the nail on the head. Everybody's protected here. I have three rules on this. Again, you don't mind me going quickly since I do this a lot, but I want you to know the rules in a short time like this, especially to govern more effectively in your responsibilities. Religion is defined. Interestingly, extraordinarily broadly, if you're curious, I can give you the definition. I say it every day. It's a mantra for me. But let's just say religion is as expansive as the theological mind's eye can conceive. I'm no theologian, and it's important you understand that. By way of example, it includes traditional belief systems, Christianity being, of course, one of them, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, all protected in any workplace under these rules. Colorado, if you're unfamiliar, covers every workplace. It has at least one employee is covered by these rules, so it's very expansive protection wherever you work. in any other capacity. And so know that. Second rule, by the way, non-traditional belief systems are equally protected. I wrote a book about this with one large chapter including it. He's the only person who read this book. But interestingly enough, it's important you understand this issue is people who are Wiccans, Pagans, Royal Church of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Atheists, Agnostics, Hare Krishna, Scientologists. Satan worshipers, you could go as far as you can think about and are there all, do they all have a seat at the table of equal protection? They do. Why does this cause religious conflicts? Because what's the one thing people often assume about their own religion? It's the Tao, the way. It's the chosen path for me and should be for others. And many people who are religiously well-informed desire to proselytize the good news that they hold with others. By the way, I don't fault that, but I need you to know, if it interferes with someone's work experience, then it breaks the law. Which goes to the next point about religion. It's why I chose the Sandra case, is you have the right to be left alone. It's my favorite civil rights protection, is get out of my face, is I don't have to experience as a matter of law other people's religious intrusions into my life. And therefore, I have the right to be left alone. I wish people would just remember that from time to time, is get out of my face. This is America. And at work, I don't have to play, don't have to participate. I don't have to bend a knee. Quite frankly, we can reasonably disagree on our religious beliefs and work together quite well. Third rule I identify here in three areas. I'm just going to say this quickly. You should know this. In three areas under our employment laws, these civil rights laws, you have to step up, pay the price, and do the right thing. This is critical for your understanding if you hold a leadership role. What are those three areas? Religion. We have a duty to consider accommodating people's differing religious needs or practices. You're probably well aware of this. You should probably know what's the most requested religious accommodation in the United States. Time during the day to pray, worship, atone. That is a command that we have to consider accommodating. What I love about, I work with more than 100 public, you know, 100 cities and counties. This is an issue because, of course, we have a duty to accommodate people's differing religious beliefs. But read on, the asterisks above, up to the point of undue hardship on the operations of the city of Louisville. Well, get this, we put people in the streets of Louisville 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Could it be potentially that you can't get every day off that you want because the community has needs that need to be met? That's something that the city council has to balance with a limited budget, and they also have to attend to these needs. but understand when the city's needs potentially overstep your religious desire. The fact I'd like to go on a four-month religious pilgrimage might affect my job in public works, especially when snow season hits or we're trying to get considerable projects done for this year. city. Does it make sense? So that's an overriding issue. We also have to accommodate, if you're curious, the condition of pregnancy all the way through childbirth. This is highly topical right now. People need to understand the definition of the word pregnancy and childbirth. It's extraordinarily broad. Very large tentacles in this. For example, does that include someone who is incapable of becoming pregnant and would desire to start a family or become pregnant? They absolutely are covered by these protections. We have a duty to accommodate them. Someone who has miscarried or terminated a pregnancy is protected. Someone who is at that point in life in which they're no longer physiological capable of becoming pregnant. This is the experience of menopause or perimenopause leading up to menopause. Are you protected? if you experience any of these conditions related to childbirth or the ability to bear children. And so you just got to know that. A lot of protected people there. And by the way, a lot of them work for the city of Louisville, people of childbearing age. Which goes to the last protected group is, of course, we talked about this. I can't stress the importance of it. And that is accommodating. accommodating as a requirement of the law but more importantly the right thing to do the needs of the disabled members of our community and our workforce and so please know these protections hold for those three areas every other protection the demand is equality here a little bit more is expected from good employers questions about those Next one's national origin. This is easy. I alluded to it earlier. It's where you and your people come from and any aspects of your culture, ancestry, trade, stereotypes associated with your people. Everybody, correct me if I'm wrong, either you or one of your ancestors came to this country by plane, train, automobile, boat, or crossed a land border of the United States. Do you hold that as an inherent protection under our civil rights laws? Cannot be held against you. This issue is extraordinarily topical right now in the immigration debate. because of people's differing views about who is welcome or not welcome in this country. And it's important you know that while you're entitled to your views. Could you really upset people relatively quickly with strongly held views in this area if you're not aware of the sensitivities of others? to this. Please note that. By the way, I do want to be clear to give every side of this debate equal room. Is being an American, identifying as American, protected under these civil rights laws? Clearly, national origin. So don't lose me on this. It's anybody from anywhere and how you identify your place of origin. Next one is gender. We can talk about this for remaining time. We're not going to do that because literally, it would blow your mind. It's a very complex topic. Can I just be clear? It's OK to embrace the complexity of the world. This is, for me, one of those issues that causes people madness because we live in an internet age. in which people feel relatively well informed and quite frankly that they know everything on earth because they read the internet in its entirety while eating their Wheaties this morning for breakfast. And so there's a lot of confusion here because of people's wide ranging differing views. Can I just give you the legal principles and you can manage the rest in your own experience? So for the first almost 60 years of the life of this law, gender meant exclusively, almost exclusively, your biological sex assigned at birth. Whether you're male or female, you are entitled to equal protection under the law. Then the evolution began. By the way, it's been longstanding. There should not be a mystery to anybody who's lived in our society. The next domino that fell was the realization that women and men have differing experiences. And one of the most obvious and, quite frankly, influencing of people's workability is becoming pregnant. So in 1977, They realized they needed to clarify that gender protection specifically includes pregnancy, childbirth. Can I tell you why? These laws are written, I think, with the best of intentions to protect people who have been marginalized and vulnerable populations. They included the majority because that's the measure of equality. But they also had significant gaps. Can I give an example? I'm from here. My mom worked at Cinderella City Mall. Is anybody from Colorado here? My mom worked at Cinderella City Mall when I was a kid. It was the biggest mall between the East Coast and California, literally during the 1960s and 70s. It was a mecca for those of us here to go there. My mom worked at JCPenney's there when I was a kid. But get this. My mom was an employee. And in the 1970s, she could not get her own credit card. unless my father actually signed for it. Can I tell you? My mom was not too happy about this because she thought it was inequitable since she hadn't gained full employment. And so you think we struggle with this? We've struggled with this a lot. And by the way, you have to have long legs. to understand how these rules have come into existence. So pregnancy specifically carved out to make it clear that pregnancy is what's often referred to as gender plus. It's a unique attribute of gender and therefore incorporated within these protections. Then we get to 2020. This is obviously the most politicized aspect of this concept. It's why I use the word gender when our civil rights laws typically use the word sex because these are two different terms. Sex often refers to your biological sex. Gender is an umbrella term. And again, please, if you have questions, they're always welcome here. Gender is a much more broad umbrella term to include not only your biological sex, not only the fact that biological females become pregnant, but also two newer protections, your sexual orientation, No mystery here. There's no political objection here in many respects. According to our Supreme Court, your sexual orientation is tied to your biological sex. I mean, it's inextricably intertwined is the words that they used. No mystery is I'm biologically male. If I were to be attracted exclusively to men, by definition, my sexual orientation would be homosexual. But change, not my biological sex, but my attraction to another group, women, and would alter my sexual orientation to heterosexual, both protected under the concept of sexual orientation. The hardest issue for people to embrace and understand is the concept of gender identity. If you're unfamiliar with this term, let me do it some justice, but I can't in a class this short talk about the entire extent of our time. but I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. Gender identity, if you're unfamiliar, is how someone not only views but expresses their gender in relation to their biological sex assigned at birth. I myself... was born male and express my gender as male. This is considered to be the normative, not normal, normative binary view of gender. But a growing population, I will assure you, Identifies their gender opposite their biological sex at birth. We often refer to this population. I heard it mentioned. Thanks, J.R. Transgender community is protected under these civil rights laws and or gender identity within. the broad term gender. By the way, this is a matter of federal and state law. Supreme Court rulings are the law of the land. Colorado has a statute that makes this clear, but in both extents, this is a protection. Also, I'll be clear, there's a population that identifies as neither male nor female. we often refer to this population as gender non-conformant or non-binary, are equally protected. Why is this a big deal? We have rules. The first rule is around restroom usage in public facilities like this. The second rule is around pronoun and naming usage and conventions. I'll highlight both quickly. This class is short, but you should know this. Everybody good so far? Comfortable? All right, let's keep on going. We talked about age, and we talked about, of course, the population of disabled persons. Two comments here if you're going to be a leader. effective leader. Please note a couple things about this, not only the obligation to accommodate, but I want to mention two things about working for a board or the city council is that employees of the city of Louisville, and by the way, members of the community who seek access, which you alluded to earlier, they have a right to demand of any member of the city to be heard with regard to the needs for their accommodation. If you receive from a member of the public or a staff member here, a request for accommodation, that is a five alarm fire to me. This is a population that we have a legal obligation to hear, and you should refer those you being the productive council member or board member, should refer those requests immediately to staff. Very important that we get that right. Please know that, that this is an entitlement, but it's also, of course, a moral obligation, I believe, to extend this protection to others. The other comment I wanted to make is please open up your eyes fully to this issue. Not only are people with physical disabilities, impairments protected, but also persons with mental impairments or developmental impairments are equally protected. I say this because persons with hidden disabilities such as depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, these are clearly disabilities protected and clearly trigger protections from mistreatment and the duty to accommodate. So you have to let go of some of your own views about other people and the world around you and immediately rush to a request for accommodation in this area. Any questions about that? I do want to mention one thing about requests for accommodation is the demand for confidentiality. That's why the right thing to do is take it to the staff. When things get out there, is that an independent violation of the ADA? I settled a case 20 years ago for a quarter of a million dollars where a well-intentioned supervisor informed everybody in his workforce that one of his subordinates was diagnosed as HIV positive. He thought he was giving them a heads up. This is, in and of itself, is a violation of the ADA. And so I felt the organization was lucky to be relieved of this responsibility by the payment of only a quarter of a million dollars. It was a long time ago. There'd be a different trajectory now. If you're curious, I get asked this question a lot. What does Genetic Information Non-Discrimination Act represent? Your family health history? is included within protections under our civil rights laws. It's sort of tucked under disability in many respects is they carved out that the fact that your family may have disabling conditions can't be used against the person in their employment capacity. The example I give is my mother, God rest her soul, experienced a massive disability case of breast cancer to the extent that she had a double mastectomy in the late 1970s when I was a child. That's neither here nor there other than why might a dark-hearted organization, including a health insurance company, potentially hold it against my two sisters? Because we're all well aware cancer can move genetically through family populations. And might they be not inclined, if they discovered my mom's breast cancer, to not be as quick to hire or insure them? And again, one of my sisters has experienced cancer. There's a gene that does actually transmit cancer through generations. So note that. Questions? I'm not going to test your knowledge on this. Yeah, please, Debbie.

Talking about getting a complaint from the public and that we should refer it to staff to deal with. We had a complaint from the public about one thing we were doing for one group. promoting them or supporting them, and they said, no, you should not support them, and you should undo what you've done to support that group.

Was it a political initiative that you had done? No. Or what was their principal complaint?

It was kind of an artistic installation. that some people said that's great, and then some people said, no, get rid of that immediately. So then what should we as council do with a situation like that where the public disagrees?

It's a little bit peripheral to this issue because it may not specifically address the work experience of people here. This is more firmly rest under constitutional free speech protections that people may say this initiative we're opposed to. It represents the wrong message or I don't believe in the message. And, of course, people have this inherent right as a matter of free speech as community members to push that to your attention. And so that should be handled, in my estimation, if it doesn't have employee implications. Like, for example, someone would say, this employee doesn't want to work on this because it violates their religious sensibilities. That would be something I would refer to staff. But if they say this is a matter of disagreement in this community, that should be exclusively for you to address within your sessions, in my estimation. Obviously, staff being involved in how we effect what is this disagreement in our community. So I put that more within First Amendment political context. Dialogue rather than anything that implicates employee issues. And I love that because I want to be clear to stay eyes on the prize here. This class is not intended to address community members' disagreement with religious issues, potentially oppose your initiatives from the cultural advisory board. There may be members of the community who raise objections. Those are firmly within the council's prerogative. to address community interests and free speech dictates. Why I love your question though and where it bears on this class is a couple of things that I want to highlight. One is a common misunderstanding is that government employees don't share the same free speech protections as members of this community. That surprises people a lot. Can I tell you in my world, I do this a lot, I hear once a week from an employee,

I can say anything I want. Members of the public do it all the time.

Epic legal failure because a 100-year-old legal principles have made it very clear that government employees acting in their official duties or capacities have limited free speech protection, and they only are resident when you're speaking as a private citizen, and only on a matter of public concern. City employees can voice their views about the community around them. But there's a last element. When government employees speak, government has the right to weigh their free speech rights against interference with the efficient operations of the city of Louisville. I'm sure you've heard about this. Someone probably gets fired every day in America, a government employee, because they have essentially disqualified themselves from their government duties by making a strident, discriminatory, inflammatory, disrespectful comment to members of the community. That is the big difference. Why I love your question is separating the employment issues from community concerns, which is, that's you. And I wouldn't necessarily involve the staff unless there's due outs from the council to the staff about this. Does that make sense? I don't know if I answered it. to your satisfaction. But I like the question a lot. Let's do a few more things because I'm almost done here, but I want to talk about what you could do to help us. Just if you're curious, Colorado's got a bunch of protections. We're a very employee-protected state. I mentioned in 2003 we changed our law. I want to hit two things before I'll stop and take any questions, but I know you have a firm agenda for this evening. So please remember employees, and this is important for all of you, employees' private lives are their own. Under Colorado law, there is inherent protection. You can't be fired for engaging in off-duty, off-premises, lawful activities. This is a big deal. I'll say this about the staff, is if you learn a member of the staff is somehow engaging in, I would call it, something that catches your attention or provocative activities, this is something you would want to address with counsel and staff because the question there is your outside activities are protected unless, one, they're unlawful, So you got into a bar fight. I was entertained this weekend by some numbskull who got on an airline flight to New Jersey from Texas and started to engage in offensive behavior. Had to be duct taped to the seat. I would love to do that to somebody. Had to be duct taped to their seat. You probably realize what happened to that person, if you're familiar. Paper the next day. His real estate company immediately terminated his employment for his unlawful, unprofessional behavior. The other limitation is a conflict of interest with the city of Louisville. That's why I'd like the staff to know. If an employee on the staff is engaging in behavior you think inflicts with their duties for the city, it's relevant for the council and staff to address that potential conflict. Hold your judgments until we adequately look at the underlying activity. Engage. The burden's on us to determine the conflict. Just know that. Lactation rights are protected. We talked about sexual orientation and gender identity. Please know that in 2021, 2021, you have the right to wear racially distinct hairstyles in Colorado schools and in workplaces. This is often referred to as the Crown Act. It is to repair past racial mistreatment where people were foreclosed from opportunities because they wore racially distinctive hairstyles. 26 states, including Texas most recently, have adopted this protection, can't be held against a student, can't be held against an employee. Again, please don't go crazy on me. I'm getting into HR turf here. We are allowed to have appearance standards, uniform standards. We never have to compromise appearance that causes a safety harm or risk to others. So if someone's hairstyle, hair wear, hair length potentially interferes with safety rules, The city could step in and address that in order to keep people safe. Last one is in 2023. I mentioned these changes. Marital status is now protected. Please know this if you serve on a board or advisory committee or the council. where people are asking people to consider work, potentially consider opportunities in the city of Louisville. It is now unlawful since 2023 to hold someone's marital status against them. Oh, you're single, you wouldn't be a good fit for this. You're married, no, this is too many weekend demands. These are now unlawful considerations in Colorado. I want to encourage you. I'm from a generation literally where You know, your boss would call you if you were single. Hey, we're short. We need you this weekend. Why did you call everybody else? Nope, you're the single person. Like, this sucks. And so that used to be time-honored. It is now wiped away by the legal sands of time. Let me give you the last piece, though. I already talked about the bathroom rule and pronoun usage. You should probably know this. We now have a new law that goes into effect on October 1st. It's called the Kelly Loving Act. This law really reinforces the problem of dead naming or misgendering. If you're unfamiliar, Kelly Loving was a transgender female. murdered in the Club Q shootings in Colorado Springs a number of years ago. This act is to reinforce under Colorado law that employees, and by the way, members of the public, have the right to use their chosen name. That's the term of art used under this law. We used to use the word preferred. I don't think it works as well as chosen name. And that is a legal entitlement, but more importantly, can constitute unlawful harassment if you deliberately misgender someone or use pronouns that they do not refer to themselves as. The common example here is, and of course this has been memified and politicized, is non-binary persons, you may well be aware, typically use gender neutral pronouns. Remember I described them as not identifying as either male nor female. So the pronouns that they commonly choose are gender-neutral. An employee would have the right to be referred to by those gender-neutral pronouns. Please also don't misunderstand this. There's a lot of selective outrage here I find in our society. No one in the city of Louisville or for any matter, any employee is commanded to use pronouns. They are a creation of English language. They are a convenience. You probably are well aware of this. They were formed in order to ease speech, but could you revert to the traditional convention, which is what? You never have to use a pronoun if you use somebody's name. I want to be clear about that. It's important that people understand it. Remember I said respect is respect? you might live in a very respectful space with someone by simply being on a first-name basis with them. Please understand that. Questions? Last piece of the class, what could you do for us? I'm not going to talk about supervisor misconduct. I'm going to talk about this, the bystanders in the room, and how you could help us considerably, and I will end my time. So I had this happen. Can anybody help me navigate this? This is new for me. I thought about it a lot. I met this gentleman who is extraordinarily funny. His stock in trade was at work. He would make fun of his own disability to his coworkers. I won't name you his obvious physical disability, but he would make fun of himself to his coworkers. Bystander takes offense. You're denigrating disabled people even if you're not disabled. troubled by it yourself. Can I just ask you this? I mean, you've all been well engaged. Why would someone do this? Mock their own disability? I like that. Caleb, what do you mean by that? A defense mechanism was the comment that he made. Oh, turn on your mic, please.

Sorry. You make fun of yourself so that other people don't or that you're in on it and it doesn't feel as bad?

Yeah, apparently you reduce barriers in some way of thinking. It's a way to fit in that you deflect the problem of harassment by making the joke about yourself first. It's a common coping mechanism, but I have to tell you, is it potentially a violation of these rules? And the answer is yes. Remember bystanders? can call out our behavior, and number two, relationships can change. What could you do for me is have some understanding of how this city addresses the problem and the obligation to communicate, and I'll be done. I know your agenda is now ready for the rest of it, but please note your own guidance number one the city's policy against unlawful discrimination harassment applies to everybody who interacts with the city i can't emphasize this enough this is a matter of policy that not only are all of you subject to city policy but the people you interact with on the staff or the community potentially can call out your behavior as being potentially offensive so in other words the city has elected to bring contributors to the city, leaders in the city, into the responsibility to meet the city's expectations. Remember I told you the council can set the standard of expected performance or behavior? That is something you should know. Next thing, anybody who is affronted, who is offended, who feels disrespected, who feels slighted, can go to any manager, They can bypass, blow through a manager, and go to the next echelon leader in the organization. And they can go directly to human resources should they not choose to use the chain of command, as we like to call it. Can I just prepare you for this? Please know, if your behavior comes into question, then it might be likely that someone brings your behavior to someone on that list. And it's important you have good relationships with the people that you work with, especially the staff that you work with, because you want to make sure you understand what other people are perceiving your behavior to be and whether it's drawing scrutiny about your own behavior. If you are a leader, and I want to put you into this camp, supervisors, as a matter of policy, have an obligation to report the concerns raised to them to Human Resources, Jeff Munzinga right there, Or the city manager. Why might they do that? Can I be clear? Sometimes people go to the city manager when the problem is in the senior leadership of the city, and they could even go potentially to the council if the highest level executive leadership is perceived as being problematic in some way. But just know there's avenues, and if someone comes to you High recommend as a leader in this city, you follow the same protocol and report to the city manager, report to HR, depending on your relationship and access to either of them. Last piece is please understand why we have the program. Anybody who raises a concern about their treatment under our system of laws as a matter of policy and as a matter of law is protected from any retaliation or reprisal for having raised a concern about others. I can't emphasize that enough. If you're curious, the one area of law that I pass through quickly, not to be insulting, but it's not as common a problem, but it's one that draws considerable attention, is supervisors behaving badly. There is a concept called quid pro quo harassment, where a supervisor potentially trolls for their love life using work as the exclusive domain to an unwelcome participant. And that is, as you're all well aware, front page news, but also a violation of these rules. I emphasize that for two reasons. Please remember my five rules. Intentions are irrelevant in this area, even if the supervisor is lovelorn, sad, unaware. going through a tough time, that is irrelevant. Their behavior is still the same. The second issue I want to be clear about is how many times does the supervisor have to overstep this boundary before it becomes unlawful? Does anyone know? It's a one and done problem. This element is immediately considered to be problematic, even in the first instance. And I want you to know, I'm going to say this. It is conceivable that people in organizational leadership roles that you hold could be perceived potentially as organizational leaders and someone could accuse you. of overstepping your role if you try to assert gender relationships, unduly familiar gender-based relationships in your own environment working for the city? Just be on guard for that. Is there good to have boundaries with the people that you effectively work with in your role for the city? Always. I can't emphasize that enough. It's where poor decision makers often find themselves sideways with these rules. That's it. Thank you. Thank you for being attentive to this. Please consider taking the slides. If you have any questions, I don't know how much time we have, Mr. Mayor. I'm happy to do what you're next on your agenda and step away if you think it's appropriate.

I think if there are questions, we haven't set a formal limit on the amount of time. Okay.

I plan for 90 minutes just to be one and done.

Not going to discourage you from that. No, but I think I want to make sure people can ask any questions that they want while you're here.

And I have high regard for the city, so if people have questions, I want to make sure that everyone's heard or can raise questions about this. Yeah, please.

I do have a question. On the slides, you were talking about the one where you had the Crown law and then marital status as a protected thing. Is there in any laws protection against harassment or discrimination based on whether or not you have a family regardless of what that family looks like or no?

Yeah, it's an amazing question. I have two answers to it. I've done this for a long time. There is a concept under our civil rights laws. First, let me answer the question directly. There's no specific protection under our civil rights laws based on parent status. The fact you have children, are a parent, have been a parent. There's no carved out, at least under federal or Colorado state law, protection based on being a parent. What the law has evolved to is a concept called family responsibility discrimination. And how that is often couched is in the other protections. I give two examples. Family responsibility discrimination is often a form of gender discrimination. The example being, I live in this space. Please don't take any offense in saying this. It would be the example that I've commonly experienced where a woman might hold another woman who is embarking on starting a family to an entirely different standard than they would hold other people to. The example being, well, when I started at work, I didn't get leave. I literally had a child in the field behind the building and I came back after lunch. You want 12 weeks off of work? How dare you? And that would be... gender bias masked as holding against someone that they're starting a family. The other commonly given example is, of course, family responsibilities attendant to disabled family members, where you're holding the fact that someone has a disabled family member against them would be a backhanded form of potential disability bias because of their close association with a disabled family member. So it's a great question. The law has often shoehorned family responsibilities into these protections. I love, it's a very insightful question because in my world, it happens with considerable frequency. By the way, it happens also in the context of men And their family relationships, as you're well aware, more and more men generationally want to be active participants in their children's lives. They take on and have more family responsibilities. The age-old stereotype was the man's job was to bring home the bacon. Well, you know what? We have people who are men that they want to be home and raise their kids to be MMA fighters from age one. And that's how they consider their place on the planet to be rewarding for their family. And so they're heavily involved in activities. Same gender bias can't relate against them. That's a good question. Caleb, do you have a question? Oh, yeah. Thank you.

I think I'll hold it. I think it's just, it's a little too broad and too big for a quick answer. So I can get back to you. Yeah, you bet.

Anybody else good? Yeah, I love it. I just appreciate the level of engagement. I really appreciate your time. I think this is an important topic. I think the more people know about it, it really reduces barriers and creates more understanding and real relationships. So thank you for pushing that, especially with your question.

Do we have any questions from anybody online? Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Pleasure to see you all. You might flash that slide that you did at the beginning with your contact information.

Oh, yeah, I will be happy to do that. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. I'll make these slides available. My contact is...

But can someone in the gallery ask questions?

I mean, oh, yeah, sure.

Yes. Yes.

So you said in your presentation you were talking about harassment. One part I saw, it was like the second part in regards to discrimination and how it's separate. But a lot of the information in regards to harassment, that's what all the information was about. And I want to see more in regards to discrimination. So I think we should do another training on discrimination specifically and have them as separate issues rather than a training together. So that's something that I want to propose is that we could have a specific presentation for discrimination and have the same presenter. That's something that I was thinking about.

It's an excellent idea, only because harassment, as you well stated, is a subset of the larger problem of treating people differently. So there's a common request, and I appreciate it. It's just a good understanding that there's more to discrimination than being offensive to people, and especially excluding them. That's important. So thank you.

Anyone else, either on council or on any of the board's commissions? staff. Looks like we're good.

Thank you very much. Yeah, pleasure. Thank you all. Please reach out. Jeff, yeah, pleasure. Seriously, great seeing you. Thank you. All right, thanks. Great to see you. Great to meet you.

Let me just launch out of here. All right. The next item, I think it's our last item, is discussion direction, upcoming agenda items, and identification of new ones from today through the end of December. City Manager, I think, is going to present on this.

Yeah, so in the packet and then in front of you, you have a printout of the agenda forecast. Unless Council wants to go over specific dates, I do have a couple of specific things that I wanted to bring up to see if Council would like to consider. We have received two requests from the Town of Superior. One is a request to reconsider the IGA contract. that we have for the tax sharing agreement with Superior. Superior is requesting to add an expiration date to the IGA. The current IGA does not have an expiration date. So I need to know if this is something that council would like to bring forward for discussion. The second item from Superior is a letter that was drafted by the mayor on behalf of council related to 88th Street improvements. They are requesting they have a grant to basically widen the sidewalk on the east side of 88th Street. They're wanting to extend that all the way to where a campus drive. They noted in the letter that Louisville staff is not supportive of that. The Louisville staff has been supportive of taking it to the point where the trail will connect through Redtail Ridge to the high school. And talking to Cameron Fulks, who's the city attorney, or city attorney, I'm sorry. If Kathleen's listening, I'm sorry. The city engineer. And Cameron said that they are still working with Superior Public Works staff related to different options about this. What Superior is looking for was some type of support from City Council related to the project. So that's an item that we would also need to know if you're wanting staff to bring forward. So those are the two specific items that I'm looking for a direction from tonight. And then if Council has any other requests for items to bring forward, we'd like to know. Thank you.

Why don't we take the first one first. Is there any interest on council in reconsidering the IGA particularly with respect to its expiration date? I think that's the answer. There is no interest in that from us. The next one would be the letter or responding to the letter. It sounds like The issue is whether we want to work up from the staff or not on that. Thoughts? Yes.

I would say no, provided that the discussions continue, you know, in good faith at the staff level, which it sounds like they are. So I know what? No to us taking it up as long as the discussions are continuing toward a mutually agreeable solution at the staff level. I don't think any of us need to play road engineer anytime soon. Yes.

I was going to say, based on the letter I read, correct me if I'm wrong, they're not asking for a financial obligation from the city. I think that would be our responsibility. So I would agree that this should be between the two staffs to create a safety environment for the kids.

councilmember dickinson i i'm yeah i guess i'm fine with not taking it up as long as what we're saying is i think this is what i'm getting but i don't want to put words in your mouth is the answer is yes like we would like to have a con continuous some continuity from the east side to the west side and whether that not the engineer like how it works or where it goes but not saying like no we're going to leave our side exactly as it is and we're not going to match what you do on your side that wouldn't really be in support of so if the idea is that we're working with them to accomplish that that's great if we don't want them to be matching it then i think it'd be something we should discuss more

Just, I think we're very close. My idea is just let's have the various engineering staff work together to find a solution everybody likes or at least can live with. Council Member Kern.

Yeah, I would agree. And if they need the input of council in order to continue that work, then I think it should come to us. Otherwise, I think Council Member Heffner makes a good suggestion.

Does that give you enough guidance?

Yes, thank you.

Okay, good. Was there anything, did you have anything more from staff standpoint? Council members, anything you want to add, comment on, subtract, multiply? Yes, so Member Cooperman.

Yeah, just one question. So on October 13th, we have the special events discussion direction. Is that going to be sort of policy around special events, but also which special events we might want to support or not support, or what's going to be the, what do you think will be the extent of that conversation?

Yeah, so this conversation is actually going to start sooner than that date. At the September 22nd meeting with the budget follow-up, not only are we going to discuss the capital improvement program, we're also going to give you a list of all of the events that we either host ourselves or we provide a sponsorship towards. We're going to need council to consider the ice rink contract. That will be an item that's on the list, but because of the need for the business improvement district to get the vendor on board, they need to do that soon. So that contract's going to come to you in September for consideration. And so by the time we get to October, we're already going to have a lot of discussion around this topic, and so that will help form what we need to discuss in October. So we're listing... specific events, partners, the amount of money that we have contributed. We're trying to estimate in-kind costs as well so that we bring this, you have a comprehensive view of how we are supporting not only internal city events, but then also events that we support.

Other comments? Do we have a motion? Actually, no, no, no, no. We need any public comment. I forgot to ask. All right.

Motion. Is that a motion to adjourn, Mayor? So moved. Second. All in favor?

Aye. Any opposed? Good. Thank you. Great meeting.

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