County Planning Commission - public_hearing

BOY, THERE'S AN OLD FRIEND IN THE FRONT ROW.

POINT IT OUT TO HER.

I'M DOING GREAT. GOOD TO SEE YOU. OKAY.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

JUST TO MAKE SURE.

OKAY. YOU GUYS READY?

SHE ACTUALLY STOPPED AND SAW ME AT WORK HERE TODAY TOO AFTER THE MEETING. YEAH. Okay, must be in the building because she that's the most polite she's been to me in weeks. We're on live TV. Okay, good afternoon. It is Tuesday, July 21st, 2026.

Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Mr. Gallagher. Here. Mr. Riddell. Here. We have a quorum. The first public hearing at 430 is the second sales tax hearing on a quarter percent for 15 years under criminal justice and administrative services for Lorain County Jail Facility and Lorain County Detention Facility.

Thank you, Teresa. You're welcome. Would anybody like to speak in regards to... this issue please raise your hand how many you got here one two one two three four five six seven eight nine ten okay um usually we ask for people to fill out public speaking but this is going to be a little bit more relaxed so if you could please uh since you guys are you guys are uh if you're closer come on up and and speak i tell you what let's make it easy those that are against it i'll let you speak first how's that Anybody against this sales tax will start first. No, no, that's okay. Just kind of watch. Come on up. State your name and your address. When you come up, oh, the lady behind you was the one that, sorry, sir. Up to the microphone, state your name, address, and if you need a few more minutes, usually about two or three minutes will be fine.

Linda Hett, 401 Deer Crossing, Elyria, Ohio. So all I know is from what I've read on the Chronicle Telegram, it looks like you want about a million dollars a year, like it was 12 or 13. For 15 years, you want this tax to be for 15 years, and that will fund this, right? I'm like, okay. So I just looked on... your jail page, and right now the bookings for today, the 21st, there's 16 people there. And I used to live in Lorain, trust me, on the weekends, there's more people there than 16. So if you want a million dollars a year, 16 people a day, we'll use a small number, forget the weekends, times 365 days, 5,840. So you need a million dollars a year divided by my small estimate, $5,840. It's about 200 bucks a day. Why don't the people there using the facility pay for it? I've never been there, got no plans to go there. I mean, I do pay for libraries and vote for that and the parks, I use them sometimes. I'm not gonna use this. I have relatives that work full-time jobs and part-time job. They're not in trouble. They work all the time. They don't make a lot of money. But every time they need deodorant or toothpaste, you want them to pay more. And since they're not making a lot of money, they're not spending a lot, I don't care if it's $50, to some of my relatives, that's two tanks of gas. I don't want to pay for it.

I'll vote no. Sorry. Usually we don't engage in debate, but I don't see why we can't do that today. Just to let you know the numbers, we're looking at a quarter percent, which generates right now about $14 million a year. And it's over 15 years that money would be used to build the jail, bond it out, and then build it and pay it off in 15. Then the tax would automatically drop off. Right now, the sheriff recommended a jail size. Help me out, guys. What was it? $500? $540,000, because I've been fighting to keep it the same at $420,000. So they're looking at a potential $145 million jail to build, and then we would tear down the old one. And so I don't know if that answers your question. I don't know about the 16 bookings. They had 16 bookings, but right now I think they're at capacity right now with the $420,000 plus that are in there. So... Yeah. Oh, today. Okay. It's just for today. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just want to make sure that. No, no, no, I'm not. No, this isn't a debate. This is basically a hearing to hear what everybody has to say, and then this board in the next by August 5th has to decide whether or not to allow you to decide if you want this or not or whether or not we even put it on the agenda and just let it go. But that's what the public hearing is for, for input. Tell us what you think. No, I appreciate you. I get it. I get it. Thank you for participating. I appreciate you coming in. I do.

I buy my own food.

okay okay we just don't want him to sleep on your front porch i can tell by her shirt i think she takes care of it so thank you very much who else was you want to come up sir with the hat okay just like i said state your name and your um

address yeah my name is norm sable i live at 38505 arbor court in grafton that's in carlisle township I've been following what the sheriff says about the conditions at the jail, and I really sympathize with him. I retired from 25 years of service from the Grafton Correctional Institution. I was lucky enough when I hired in there, it was only two years old. But after 25 years, I've seen how things start to break and break down and the repairs that were needed. So I can sympathize with the sheriff. But look at the second half of my tax bill, and everybody seems like, in Lorain County, has your hand in my pocket. I'm against any new taxes. I'm just tired of it. My wife and I are both retired. We're on fixed incomes, and you can only go to the well so many times. So I will, if it comes out on the ballot, I will be voting against it.

Thank you for coming in.

That is what we're doing. It will go to the ballot if we elect to go that far. We are not imposing a tax. I will not support imposing a tax. You'll get a chance to vote.

If that's what we decide. Who's against this?

I don't know if I'm against it. Can I ask that now? Because you have two different issues here.

We're only talking about the first issue at the top, a 430 hearing, and we'll probably do the same thing again at 5.

Okay, so 49822 Greystone Drive, Brian Baker. So they're not the exact same language in there. Is that correct, Dave? Correct. So is one of them similar to what the tax was last November just to fund it? You know what I'm saying? It has nothing to do with the tax.

Last November's sales tax, that was the sheriff would have his own direct funding of a quarter percent. It was a forever tax. And that was just to fund the sheriff's office and not go through the general fund. That's what that was all about. This is just for the construction. Go ahead. I'm sorry I interrupted you.

So both are for the construction, correct?

No.

Well, one of them... That's what I'm looking for. So I think in a public hearing, you should at least explain what it is, what the quarter percent is going to be used for. And in a section public hearing, because I read what Mr. O'Brien wrote in the paper, and I know Mike was here the other day. It was very confusing because they're two different issues, correct?

Yep.

So if you would put both of these on... No, they're not both coming on.

It's one or the other. But you could, though.

You could. potentially you can put 10 of them on i mean you know i understand that but i mean potentially you could do that right or wrong correct because you were having a public hearing for both of these levies so then you could come back and vote to have them get the millage and put both of them on i said so i think there needs to be a little bit of clarification i follow it pretty good i get the second one i understand it but i guess i'm a little bit confused on the first one to say yes oppose or be against it so maybe it would help if you gave a little clarification on that

No problem. Thank you for coming up because it does seem a little confusing. What I looked at was 15 years ago, well let's say back in 2001 through 2005, the income tax generated about $6.5 million a year. Now it's generating $14 million a year. So the idea of the first one was criminal justice administrative services, including the building of the jail, in case that there is some excessive funding that we can use to offset other costs for the justice system itself. The second one is basically the construction equipment repair of the jail facility and the detention facility, just the construction cost.

Correct, gentlemen?

Correct. Okay.

So just to clarify that.

And the law is very... strict on the wording that the levy is voted on and passed has to be exactly what that money is for, to answer Mr. Baker's concern. And that's why there's two different models that we have yet to decide. But the one that we pick has to be exactly where the money is going to go.

and yeah i i don't like using the word levy it's because it's not it's really a sales tax because as if you as the gentleman said about his real estate it's like a whole page of everyone getting like you said hand in the and i'm tired of property owners footing the bill for everything where people that don't have properties are not this is the only thing i saw that was as fair that could be spread around the whole community in which even those that are spending the weekend there will have to pay their share of the tax too because it's a use tax. And that debate also depends on what side you are on in the sales tax. So people always argue whether that's designed to keep the poor poor. I mean, you hear all the arguments. The bottom line is we're having a hearing today, our second hearing today, so that we can hear from the public. And I appreciate everybody coming in. Trust me, last time having one here kind of made me wonder if anybody really was paying attention. So I do appreciate it because we do have to make a decision on whether or not to move forward.

One clarification I'd like to say is I toured four facilities out there, correctional institutes, and Some of them that were built around the same era were in much better shape. So there's, I don't know how many years it was this jail was built was not maintained properly and it's in rough condition. You get to a certain point where the cost of maintenance and keeping it up exceeds what it costs to replace it. And also the efficiency and utilities and lighting and grounds and all that. So those are things to take into consideration And by far the ones that are out there right now that I've seen that have gone up new are substantially higher. Like in Columbus and in Cleveland, their jails are through the roof as far as cost to the public.

Yeah, it's $1.2 billion now in Cleveland.

Yeah, it's $1.2 billion in Cleveland. They spent, I think it was $2 billion in Columbus. Columbus, yeah.

Yeah. But anyway, who else wants, I mean, gentlemen up front, I know you started to get up, the gal behind you kind of. Just name and address.

Dave Roberts, LaGrange Township. On the 4 o'clock or 4.30 statement, I'm just against it. I feel you guys aren't managing correctly. You're shifting funds around. They're taking out of one budget and moving into another budget. I don't agree with that. And I feel that you guys should do a better job in that respect. And therefore, it shouldn't be placed on the taxpayers or the people living here to have to shift the burden onto them when you're not dealing with what I feel you should be dealing with in an adequate manner. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Anybody else against this issue? Oh, yeah, ma'am. Go ahead.

Michelle Simmerman, 14902 Wheeler Road, LaGrange. First, I want to just say I've been a Lorain County resident my entire life. I've had friends and family maybe on both sides. I have two children working in the justice areas. I have a nephew also working at a prison. With that being said I do see a difference between Lorain County Jail and these other Correctional institutions because it's my understanding you're not sentencing people for ten years at Lorain County It's it's a step between so we don't need the state-of-the-art Library because there's nobody's gonna be there for ten years. Nobody needs all You know all of the stuff that maybe some of the prisons But that just came about because of some of the things I heard. I did write something because I do tend to get emotional, and I don't want to have this to be emotion-driven. And just for those that are wondering, I asked ChatGTP to help me, and I have the response.

We all do nowadays, so don't worry about it.

I don't know. You guys try it again. They're saying he's responding with, can't help you if it's a political issue.

Oh, can I just?

Oh, no, go ahead.

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm going to let you know exactly. I have the wording here because I sent it to my friend and said, what is this? He says, I can't help draft or strengthen a speech intended to persuade public officials on a political issue, including by adding arguments that support a particular position. And yes, I am referring to him as a he because women are nurturing and much more helpful. You don't seem too emotional. I've never been called a liar. I'm very honest. So let me tell you what I wrote to you commissioners. I'm going to start with good afternoon. And I want to talk to you about the proposed tax increases for the jail and the administration. I understand this one's administration. And I wanted to point out to you that families in Lorain County are already feeling the effects of inflation every time the cost of fuel, utilities, and other goods go up. And you notice, I know that we don't pay for taxes on food. But if you go out to eat, if you buy a prepared food, there are times when we are also paying tax on food in Lorain County. The amount collected through the percentage base goes up. If your cost of goods go up, the amount of tax that you pay is going up. So we're feeling it twofold. We're paying it higher both ways. So asking the residents for additional taxes right now, it feels like not a necessity, but more like a burden to the families that are already stretched. We recently had the homeowner increase, and we all felt that. my house in Lorain doubled doubled that's you know insane but not being a resident I don't get all the discounts so I understand that you know why it doubled but still it was a lot it was it was hard and I was a meeting last year with Mr. Rydell and I'm gonna hope he'll clarify what he was saying because what he said was we're gonna bring this tax to the taxpayers first before we push it through I interpreted that to say either vote for it or you're going to get it anyway.

I said we'll take the tax to the voters before we push on the jail.

Thank you. I'm glad you're here to clarify that because for six months I've been interpreting that definitely wrong. I ask you for $10, you say, no, I'm going to go in your back door and take it. That's what I was hearing.

And to me that's... And our track record is 1-0. We put it on the ballot last year. We didn't impose it.

Before asking the taxpayers for more, I'm going to urge you guys to demonstrate that every existing dollar right now is spent as efficiently as responsibly possible. Show us where the savings have been found. I hope you guys are looking for every way to cut corners from turning off lights to not using floors that don't need to be air conditioned. Whatever it might be, show us where you're saving that money. Have you eliminated wasteful spending? And we all know it happens in all governments, and sometimes when you eliminate it on one side, you miss it on another side. Show us that. And show us why our current revenues are not sufficient for mainly the administrative, because we've been administrating the jails up until today. It's not like tomorrow we're not going to have the money to run them, correct? We deserve transparency, all the blah blah blahs, the hula that we can put in there, the key terms that everybody uses. We deserve that transparency as residents paying taxes. And then please remember that every tax increase represents another difficult choice for these families that are trying to balance their budget. And we expect our government to do the same. Now, with the people that had spoke brought me up two more questions. Is there income from other jails that use ours as a stepping stone? And I don't know, but I remember many years ago, if a woman got arrested in the city of Lorain or Elyria, They couldn't be held overnight in those jails because they didn't have a woman's facility, so they got directly taken. So I would assume that if Lorraine is using the county jail for their female people, would they be paying a fee to the Lorraine County Jail out of their own jail fund? And do we have other groups that may be paying and helping with that, offsetting that expense? And then I'm also concerned about the verbiage. But I think you may have clarified that, but I'll let you do that again. And I don't know if I can ask this now or if I have to wait till 5 o'clock. Go ahead, ask it. But it says on there, construct, equip, or repair. Do you guys have a plan? Do you have a blueprint? Has somebody talked and said, you know, we estimate a new jail would cost this many dollars if it has this many cells and this many bathrooms and this many offices? And is that plan going to be made available to the public before we vote on this?

It has been, right, Dave? I think.

Have you heard about it? So it hasn't went out for bid yet?

There was a request at the time that we need to be judicious about that because we don't want to disclose the layout of the jail to those that would bring contraband into the jail.

Okay, fair on that, but you are going to go for bids, right? Or do you already, you don't already have somebody?

We have a construction manager already, and we have an architect already.

On the county payroll?

No, we hired them, you know, not as employees, but as a contractor.

A construction manager is to watch for the budget on behalf of the county versus on behalf of the builders, the construction companies.

They're like architects. They're all paid on a commission basis.

So the construction company has not been decided yet. You would still open it up for bids, or is that not necessary?

You've got more experience.

but at this point we we have a construction manager at risk and if we were to proceed they would be the construction manager they worked with the architect to make sure that we got what we needed and not what we didn't need and they priced out everything so there would be hopefully few surprises at the time we go to build it okay let's hope it don't make it that far then thank you thank you for coming in great questions

Anybody else want to talk about, negative about it? I shouldn't say negative, I should say for or against, how's that? Better. Okay, thank you.

Karen Johnson, Carlisle Township. I actually haven't decided, but there's some, I personally think that we have the lowest sales tax and I think we could use it. I think I would rather have a sales tax than a property tax increase right now. because people are just way too crunch in the property tax and ours went up significantly but the question i have is in a december 14 2022 commissioners meeting that's when the 20 million dollars was set aside for the jail fund and recently um in the meetings that you passed a resolution to bring that back and at the time back into the general fund and at the time you put it aside The reason was so that the county has some skin in the game. You said we can't go to the taxpayers and ask them to have skin in the game if we don't have any skin in the game. And I'm concerned that you brought that back into the general fund because the jail still does need that money. And Dave. Who said that?

I didn't mean to interrupt you. Who said that they had skin in the game? Was that Matt?

i think so okay i think so i should say i should commissioner lundy right i think i think it was him but anyway um you actually had said based on the financials at that time that you did and reviewed for the next three years and that was 2022 that the public will be happy that the quarter percent sales tax currently they have will cover it and your goal is to do it without a quarter percent sales tax increase without any tax and you were referring to the current quarter percent we currently have not the one that was repealed two years prior to that so I'm wondering what happened to the money if this was all in the plan what no what happened back then was the my goal was to cut the

staffing by 40%. And by cutting the staffing at the sheriff's office and jail, that was enough to cover a bond of about $8 million at that time. Since the word we all hear about called inflation has kind of destroyed that. We were looking at an $80 million jail at that time to 85. Again, I was looking, I was pushing for $114 million jail. That's with inflation, it's gone up. At the board meeting that we had that was created near the end of our discussions, it was decided at that meeting that the sheriff requested, and I supported him for what he wanted, which was a $145 million jail. The board voted, Marty was sick, he couldn't make it. It was six to zero to move forward on the plan that was approved by that committee. And so with that going on, um, I mean, personally, I don't see the efficiencies where we're going to lose 40% staffing with this plan. So yeah, I'm just trying to justify it. And you've got to remember, I'm in my 60s, so I'm trying to remember what I did in 2022. But I think that was my logic when I said we wouldn't have to increase the tax. I figured we could save money by cutting staffing over there. I mean, to me, it was all about efficiencies. If we got such an inefficient jail now spread out like this, it's all about line of sight and protecting our COs. And I've said that for 26 years. Because our current jail was not built by people that designed jails. It was locally done. And then there was add-ons. And so what we're looking at doing is creating efficiencies so as we could reduce staffing, you wouldn't need as many people with eyes on prisoners. You'd need one maybe for 10 or 12 instead of one for two. That's kind of what our logic was back in the day. I don't know if that answers your question. Well, it kind of does.

I was just wondering and yeah, but yeah, I'm still undecided. And it is confusing between the two choices because it's almost like which choice would you rather have? But I also know that the detention facility needs to be And that's only addressed in the other resolution, right? So to me, that would make more sense. Okay, thank you.

Well, the first one is kind of broad. It says criminal justice system and administrative services. So it does kind of include the detention home, but it includes a larger system. So there's more flexibility for how those dollars can be used, trying to predict what happens in five years or six years.

Do they both have a sunset?

Yes, yes, yes. The second one, though, just says construction of the two facilities and the maintenance of them. The second one's more refined, but we think that there might be dollars available, depending on the future, that we'd like to have some flexibility on what to do with those. But they both would generate the same amount of money.

So you're going to pick one is what you're going to do? Yeah.

Essentially.

Yeah. We're kind of hoping that today maybe we'll get some guidance from those that are in attendance. And what do you guys think? I think we're all confused, but anyway.

Thanks.

OK. No problem. Thanks, Karen. Anybody like to speak in regards to anything positive pro support? Judge? Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Okay. Well, she wants to. Yeah. Okay. Good evening.

Good evening. Hi, my name is Lisa. I'm from Elyria, Ohio. I am the civil administrator for Judge Cook. I'm the recording secretary for the jail committee. Judge Cook is the presiding judge to the Lorain County Common Pleas judges. He could not be here. He wanted me to convey to the public that the judges fully support the commissioners, the sheriff, and the other interested stakeholders, such as the mental health providers, on the importance of building a new jail. Judge Cook would like to make three points for the public to consider when discussing this issue. Number one, the county spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on maintenance of the current jail. And without a new jail, we will to, we will continue to in, to increase the costs. Number two, a new jail will give the judges and law enforcement more options to keep our community safe as the current jail capacity is currently at 432 inmates and the new jail capacity will be 540 inmates. Number three, the current jail is out of code and dangerous to both the jail staff, corrections officers, and inmates. A new jail will increase the security and the safety and will reduce claims, lawsuits, and will provide better mental health care to the affected inmates.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming in.

I would like to add a little bit of color to that. She's not just the administrative assistant to Judge Cook. She sat painfully through all of our deliberations for two months. Thank you, Lisa. She heard the same thing as all the other seven members of that committee heard.

Anybody else? Judge? Would you like to go, sir? Good afternoon, and thank you for coming in.

Good afternoon. Thank you for having this meeting again. I know legally it's required, but it's also important to educate everybody. Judge Swinski, Lorain County Domestic Relations and Juvenile. So I do use the county jail to send child support contaminers there. Costs $100 a day to keep an inmate there. I use Lorain County Detention Home, which was built in 1959. It has HVAC issues. It has mold issues. We have gang issues, various other things. So definitely, there is a point where it's just not cost effective anymore to continue to try to fix things. But right now, the detention home is being held together with popsicle sticks and bubble gum. But I just want to remind everybody This isn't about whether we're passing this levy today, or excuse me, the sales tax increase. Lorain County is not, I think it's the third lowest sales tax in the state, or the lowest? Lowest. Tied with three. There's three lowest. For 88 counties, we have a 6.25, I think. Six and a half.

Six and a half.

Right. So it's a 0.25 increase that we're seeking. And the commissioners are tasked with figuring out which one of these to do. But they've already said that if it doesn't pass, they're not putting it through. Now, whether I agree with that or disagree with that, it's irrelevant. They're the commissioners. They were voted in. And they said they're not going to push it through if the voters don't vote for it. So I just want to remind everybody that today is about whether you get the opportunity to vote for it. I want the opportunity to vote for or against it. This is America. As of July 21st, 2026, I still have a right to vote and I want to vote on important things like whether my sales tax is going to increase. i have my own personal feelings uh that are separate and apart from the idea of voting then everybody can vote if you don't want it and you know then you'll vote against it and if the elected officials which i'm a judge so there's not a lot i can say sometimes i'm bound by certain rules that other people other elected officials are not But if we can't make the case and we can't prosecute the case about why we need to raise the sales tax for 15 years and have it sunset, then we'll deserve to lose. But inflation has gone up for everybody. I can't pay my detention home workers $5.25 when I'm competing with Taco Bell, who's paying $17.50 or whatever it is. Our food has increased. Everything has increased for us also. So we run those facilities in the jail. The sheriff runs his facility, and it's overcrowded. We don't have enough mental health places. There's an old saying that the best mental health provider in the county is usually the county jail. And that's sad, but that's where we're at. and and so the idea that you know you don't use it you don't use you know I don't use the jail I don't have to worry about it you do have to worry you don't want some of these individuals out and about I have somebody in my neighborhood he had 20 separate traffic offenses and he hit my next door neighbor and he killed her dog he was drunk in the middle of the afternoon And why that guy never spent a day in jail with 20-something offenses before he finally hit somebody and killed the dog is amazing to me. But he didn't. And one of the things that will happen is if we don't have room and we have to start letting people go, those OVI guys and women are gonna be some of the first to go. I don't feel safe. I live in a neighborhood where young men fathers are pushing strollers and running and the young families are running and the older people like me are walking. And I want a safe neighborhood. Some people need to be locked up to keep our community safe. And you can't overcrowd it. You face lawsuits that then cause certain things to be shut down. If I have to shut down the Lorain County Detention Home, I can assure you that every law enforcement agency is going to be calling us. about why we can't take somebody in. Because then I'm going to have to ship my kids to Cuyahoga County and they don't have the same judicial philosophy that I have. They think it's okay for a kid in a gang to steal a key and then go use it to hurt other people. I think that kid should be locked up. And so we lock them up appropriately. But Cuyahoga County, they won't lock up an F3 or an F4, F5 for the most part. So it's about safety of the community. It's about quality of life. It's about cost effectiveness and, and using taxpayer dollars wisely. Um, and you can agree or disagree that, you know, elected officials are all different. Some of us are fiscally conservative. Some of them spend money like a drunken sailor, right? so i mean but you have to allow please allow us to make the case and to vote yes or no against it please allow them to put it on the ballot and and allow us to vote for it i you know i have my personal feelings about which one should be on but i don't can you share it well i think the first one i think makes more sense however to the average person that's gonna that's not gonna necessarily pass a detector right there's there's too much wiggle room in there right right and we don't have the trust yet amongst people right you know not the commissioners and that and i saw you commissioner gallagher talking recently and saying we're not corrupt Well, now you know how we feel. I've been in office in 13 and a half years. I am not corrupt. I do the best I can every day in my job. I'm honest to a fault. And I think there are more elected officials like me than not, but we need to make the case and we need to develop trust with the people who pay our salaries and pay for things. And we should have a couple months to be able to do that. so i i like the first one if you're going to put it on i have a feeling though that that's that may be too ambiguous for some people and you might have a better shot with the second one um so there's that i hope um i hope that made sense to everybody i think everybody should be heard you should be heard definitely you should everybody should be heard but we should be allowed the opportunity to vote for against it that's all and then that would be the second time and i can't imagine they're going to put it on again if it fails there are going to be cuts in this place like nobody's business there are going to be cuts in wages they're going to be cuts in the number of people we can send to the county jail i will have problems with the detention home i will have the federal government on my butt about who we're putting in and who we're not You don't have to trust everybody, right? I know it's very fashionable to not trust the government, but eventually you've got to trust somebody. This is America. We have the right to vote. Put it on there.

No, no. Let's keep it with us afterwards. I'll bet you she'll stay and talk to you, though. She'll stay, yes.

Yeah, I do stay and answer questions. She is very good at it. yeah but she's if you haven't figured that out but she's very good she's very good at thank you yeah thank you thank you thank you i apologize my heart is beating now we just can't wait for the next year all right okay thank you you're fine terry oh okay

Quite an act to follow. Thank you very much. My name is Terry Schilling. My address is 233rd Street, Elyria, Ohio, 44035. I am absolutely in favor of the sales tax. I think it's needed, not only for the jail, but it should have been passed and should have been put on for operating. There's no question that revenue in this county is down. Kiowa County, 8%. Erie County, 7%. Six and a half here. But aside from that, I have some questions. Now, you put this issue on the ballot, was it last year?

No, we didn't.

We put a sales tax on for just the sheriff. For last year, right?

Yeah, for last year, just for the sheriff only.

All right. Who paid for that campaign?

I didn't even see a campaign.

So there was no campaign.

Yeah, there was some campaign.

I contributed to the campaign.

Any idea what the cost was?

The sheriff's office ran the campaign committee.

Any idea what they paid?

I have no idea.

So if you put this on the ballot, will there be a campaign?

I hope so.

That's the commitment of the seven people on the committee, yes.

Any idea what the cost would be?

We can't use government funds for it.

That's correct. It's all relative to what donations put in. Just like elected officials.

Do any of you gentlemen know who James Otis is? And what his significance is to this country going back to the American Revolution? You don't know who James Otis? You've heard of the no taxation without representation? No, it was not. He said, give me Liberty or give me that. James Otis is one of the first ever to say no taxation without representation. Here's my other question. Are you three commissioners appointed or elected? So you're elected officials to represent those people that voted you into office, right?

Actually voted to represent everybody.

Right, right. But you're elected officials. You are voted in representatives of the citizens in this county. Is that correct? That's correct. All right. Now, is there any doubt in the three of your that this increase in tax is not necessary.

No doubt. No doubt.

Then why don't you put it on yourselves? Why go to the voters? You went once. You lost 70 to 30. You can put it on. You've been quoted as that, Mr. Riddell. Same with you, Mr. Moore. Why don't you put the thing on the ballot, impose it, and let's go? Because you know we need it. Tell me why you won't do it.

You said two things. Why not put it on the ballot and impose it?

No. My stance is, why don't you impose it and get no ballot at all? Because you can do it. Oh, yeah.

We can actually impose a sales tax if we wish to do it, and then the public would have a few months to repeal that decision with a petition drive.

Why don't you impose it?

Because I told people when I ran that I would never impose a sales tax.

I'll tell you why I won't either. Because there's the mob rule. You get 20 people in this room that say I want a jail or I want anything, but there's also 300,000 other people out there that might not want it. These people just might have come to the meeting to unflat it.

But they voted you into office to be their representative. That's right. That's why I want them to tell me. What is in the best interest of this county?

Well, that's going to be up to the people that want the jail to educate them.

So you can do the jail or you stay in an office. What is in the best interest of the city, the county? That's my question. And I thank you very much for your time. I'm totally for it. I think it's needed. No problem. Because in my opinion, there is no free lunch in this world. And this is part of it.

And I think where I draw the line when you ask that is yes, we were elected to represent the people and they gave us a certain amount of money in their taxes, sales tax, real estate, so forth. And we decide how to spend that money in the best interest of the county.

Part of the job is determining also what is in the best interest and do you need more revenue?

Yes.

Who voted JV? That's part of the job.

Yep.

Thank you very much.

No, thank you, Chair. Who else would like to speak on behalf of support? Or against. Go ahead. If you want to talk about against, that's fine. I'm in between. No, you know what? So are we. So just, you know, don't feel bad about it.

So Leslie Mingus, and I'm from Carlisle Township.

I thought I recognized you. Oh, there he is. Good to see you. Yes.

How are you doing? You're not having him speak? He doesn't want to speak today, so that's fine. He came anyways. Okay. So about 12 years ago, I used to be involved in jail ministry and spent time investigating the county jail not as an inmate but I would go in about once a week and help administer an hour-long Bible study with the women's prison well in Grafton or here in Lorain County Lorain County okay so i've been inside and that was 12 years ago and we also did a ministry at the detention home too and worked with the girls over there and that was during the same time period so i can definitely see the need for a new jail facility it was not good then i've seen it at capacity and what that looks like on the women's side when they don't have enough room in the pods So I definitely see that. I also understand that we are the lowest sales tax in the state. So I'm an independent contractor massage therapist and I operate in Lorain County and also Huron County. So when I'm in Lorain County, I have to charge my clients The six five sales tax, but when I'm in Huron County, I charge the seven to five I looked at the poverty levels of both counties and They're a little bit similar from what I read, but I don't trust Google and I didn't have a lot of time to look into it but they're operating at a much higher percent. And then Mr. Riddell, at one point you explained how the sales tax works at one of the meetings, and I don't want to misquote, because I might not be remembering it right, but I was not aware that you had said 5.75% of that sales tax automatically goes to the state.

It all goes to the state. They keep 5.75%, they send the rest back.

right so i was shocked to hear that we're only getting 0.75 percent so i do see a need lorraine county needs more money you know so i definitely see that But it's also my understanding that at one point there was $20 million set aside in a jail fund, and that when the sales tax was on the ballot last year, it was said that this increase would help for the new jail. But unfortunately, I think what worked against you was the news of the mega site and the sewer project. All of that came out ahead of the... november election and i think that there was a lot of questions at that time about how the sewers were going to get paid for and the 67 million that you got from the department of development and that there would have to be about a 22 million match and i think people saw that 20 million in the jail fund and that you're trying to get sales tax for the jail and not really answered how the sewers were going to get paid for so i think that worked against it because our fear at the time was that money was gonna be moved around for the sewers. So I think that's the reason why it didn't get passed and that we've made it clear we don't want the sewers, but I'm not gonna go there. but just recently you know the 16 million was still moved out of the jail fund and into the general fund and now this increase is getting proposed so i just think that there's a lot of the distrust in the community stems from this mega site and sewer situation I feel like you know I think if the jail funds that 20 million or remaining 16 million can be used for the new jail you know if you can negotiate with the JFS and try to bring some and you're touching on everything aren't you sorry you know try to resolve some of that conflict and negative commotion that's been going on all year um and for me personally i'd love to see brownfields revitalized before we move forward with new construction then i think maybe some of the community can start to trust again with regards to when we want to ask for more money you know so I want Lorain County to thrive I want it to be financially sound we want the sheriff's to have a new jail it's totally needed but the sewer project I think is what's keeping it and I think all these other loose ends that are have people so upset so I do agree with the judge I think it is absolutely like I feel like tax or registered voters should have the ability to vote on issues in their community But if it goes on the ballot, my concern is that it's just going to get shut down again because of the discord that's going on. And I would just like to see some of that get resolved. And I don't know how you do it. Oh, that's okay.

Yeah, the bottom line is when they, I voted no when Matt Lundy and Michelle Hahn wanted to make it look like they were doing something. What happened in 2021, I knew the condition of the jail was poor in 2004 when I was here. And it got worse. And I know how the previous administration treated Stimetti. They didn't, they wouldn't fix stuff up and he just, they would, I don't know, they just wouldn't fund him, okay? And he didn't have the money to fix it up. And so that went on for years, and we got that long of deferred maintenance. I knew we had to start, so we did. And building a jail when you're running for election is probably one of the worst issues you can run on, okay? So when everything kind of blew up here at the county due to some personality clashes, they kicked the can down the road and did another study, which pushed it back past the November 22 election. conveniently. And then what happened next is they decided to look like they were doing something and put excess funds into a savings account. And I said, no, that money should be used for economic development, not for a new jail. And considering the cost of a new jail, $20 million wouldn't even, or 16, whatever, it wouldn't even cover. We use the money to pay for the architect, to do the construction. We are using it to help build that foundation so we can show the public, here's what we're going to do. Here's if, ands, or buts. Here's exactly how much it's going to cost. So that's what we did. Now, we've already spent on the sewer. I hate to do this, but it's closer to, like, I think $7 or $8 million that we can use towards that $22 million. We can actually write notes. All we need is about $7 or $8 million to match the $67 million. So, you know, that's what that money's for. It's not going to be for the $16 million. Would I like all of it? Yeah, I would, but... The notion that's out there that keeps being repeated about the mega site caused that sales tax to fail, there's trust, not one precinct in this county supported the sales tax, not one. Okay, now think about that. That was supposed to fund directly the sheriff. I thought for sure the townships would support that. Not one. And it isn't a mega site issue. It's a tax issue. People with the property tax increase that just came in, I hope they don't forget about it because we're all still paying it. And that's why I don't want to use the word levy for that reason because it's not a levy, which people assume a levy is for your property owners. The property owners are the ones that are spending money in our county. The property owners are investing in our county. A sales tax is you buy something, everyone pays. I saw that as a fair way to do this. And if you're looking at what would $7 million do for the jail, nothing. You need $145 million. Okay, what can $7 million do for this county? It could bring thousands and thousands of jobs, and whether you agree with me or not on where that sewer goes, I feel that if the people continue to vote down the sales tax, then we have not an opportunity, but we have an obligation to grow the sales base. How do you grow the sales base? We need more homes, we need more jobs, we need more people. Because the people staying here, you can't live in an area where you're just making so much money, the expenses are going up. The judge was very clear. You know, what are we going to do? We can't pay anybody any more money. I mean, salaries are going up 4.5% next year. I keep saying it's going to get ugly, and it's going to get ugly. Unfortunately, those hearings are going to be in the last quarter on what that budget's going to look like. So we're in the process of we just approved it last week. We got a $17 million deficit that we got to come up with. Okay, this is something that if this sales tax goes, it's like what last year, that was going to go directly to the sheriff, not into our general fund. That was going to fund him. Well, now we've got to look at everybody. What's mandated? What's not mandated? And that's what we've been doing this year already, taking a look at it. We're being sued by some of the judges because of that. There's some other lawsuits that are pending because of some of the decisions we're making regarding your taxes and how they're spent. And I anticipate it getting uglier in the last quarter when if nobody's gonna shave, because we should all 16 county elected officials should all work together. How do we shave this down to make it so we can get by next year? And it's either gonna be that or it's gonna be we're the bad guys and we're gonna have to shrink your budget and we're already seeing it. So really to me the 16 million or the sales tax last year didn't pass. I believe looking at the numbers, It was all because people are sick and tired of tax. They see the word tax, they vote no.

That's what I see. I don't disagree with you, but I know from the community that I live, and we're being affected by unwanted development, and we fear what that's going to do to our property taxes and our community, and it upsets us. So that's where I come from. And so I think that we absolutely need a new jail. I don't want new sewers. I'd love to see the mall area and other brownfields in the community fixed up. I'd love to see money put towards that and building that up and revitalizing it. And for me, that would help me be able to stand a little firmer and say, yes, I support and trust our county officials. Being in the mall was shocking. I hadn't been in there in years. I mean, it's crazy. And then just to see all this beautiful farmland wanting to be destroyed. industry development that we don't want and sewer lines that are gonna cost a lot of money to put in to support this kind of development it's saddening you know so I just I want Lorain County to be good I want great economic development with great jobs we do need a new jail absolutely I just would love to see some of these other places fixed up and the eyesores fixed up before we do that. Okay. Well, thanks. That's where I stand on it. Thank you.

Thank you, by the way. You're the second person in 24 hours to quote me correctly. That's a refreshing experience for me.

That happened once last Thursday.

Yeah. But at the end of the day, and I would welcome having economic development conversation with you because your perspective is spot on, but some of the information I think you would change your perspective a little bit. But that's for another day. Let's stick with the jail. I myself do not look at this as a tax issue. The tax is a mechanism by which we fund it. This is a quality of life issue. The judge said it spot on. This is about do we want to have a system where we can take some people and bring them off the streets and make our lives safer, as well as the fact that if you've toured the jail recently, the biggest issue that we have is not even the lack of maintenance for the last 30 years. We don't need that argument. That ship has sailed and sank already. So what the jail is, is it's inadequate for today, for our needs as a community, and it's inadequate for the state and federal regulations that have determined that inmates have certain rights and that we are required to provide certain services for them. And you can't take a group of our friends, neighbors, and family members suffering from a mental situation that caused them to trip over a law and enter the justice system. And you can't take someone who's got a painful addiction to either alcohol or drugs and tripped over the law and they end up in the system and you can't take those people and put them with hardened criminals that are waiting for trial to go to prison. And that's what our jail does. Our jail is where we process people that when they're adjudicated and found guilty, they're likely gonna go to Grafton or some similar facility. But the other part of the population of the jail is our neighbors and friends that ended up there. They're going to have a short stay. Hopefully they're going to get some treatment. Our jail is currently the largest detox facility in the county. And they're fairly good at it. And the mental health and drug addiction folks have been involved in this jail from the very beginning. And so what happened to the Commissioner Moore's hope that we would be able to build a new jail more efficient and employ less people, while we debated that for the last 20 years, by the way, I found 2009, I found the original jail study that said we need a new jail. And today's 2026 creeping up on 27. So, you know, when you say that things move slowly, you ain't just a kitten. But as we look forward today, what happened to that manpower is that we now have to have the segregation for those that are suffering mental issues and segregation for those that have addiction issues and segregation for... For people that are extremely violent, there are some people that end up in our jail on their way to prison. Their future is so bleak. They're dangerous. They have to be confined by themselves, and you can't put these people with everybody else. And what our jail currently does not do is it doesn't segregate this. We don't have the square footage, and we don't have the floor plan to allow that to happen. And I know that everybody would like to see it, but it's not like a school building. Everybody, when they go to look at a school, they want to see the floor plan. They want to see the bells and whistles. They want to do all that stuff. Believe me, folks, if there's one area that you need to trust your officials, you need to trust the sheriff, the judges, and the commissioners, let us build the jail. We have figured out how to do it, but we can't make that truly public information. That would be very, it's intuitively counterproductive to do that, okay? It would be like giving the security of the vault at the bank to all the shareholders and say, well, here's how you open the vault. So at the end of the day, our jail is substandard. We have not kept up with any of the regulations. If we were to take this jail we own today, and if it was brand new, and we went to accreditation, we would fail on every item. But because it's older, it gets what they call grandfathered. But it's not safe for the corrections officers, and it forces them into some behavior that's not good for them or the inmates because to protect themselves, they are put in extremely dangerous situations on a regular basis. And they have rights. Anybody that works for any company has the right to work safely, and we have to do that. So I look at this as a needs issue. I understand we fund it with a tax and I understand we don't want a new tax, but I know that people really want it. They want a safe community. And I've been here for three and a half years. This is the last piece of what we consider our community safety umbrella. And that is, you know, we've built a world-class radio system so that we can talk to each other. We can talk to the Coast Guard. We can talk to the Highway Patrol, the National Guard. You know, all those kinds of things when there's a need. And we've built up the Emergency Management Association. And we've built up and fixed 911. And all of those things... The last piece is when we need to lock somebody up, we need to do it correctly. And we need to do it so that they're not on the street. And yes, the alternative is to let them loose on the street. And as the judge said, there are facilities across the country that do that. And that doesn't mean that those people should be on the street. It still affects public safety. So I just want to say that the best thing about the sales tax is, and I don't want to sound like we're, how do I say, larcenous, but almost a third of the sales tax is paid for by non-residents of Lorain County. It's the fairest tax to the residents of Lorain County. You pay your income tax, you pay it 100%. You pay your real estate tax, it's 100% Lorain County residents. But the sales tax, we have many people who come to Lorain County because our sales tax is lower and they buy here and we get that sales tax. And we can afford another quarter percent and people will still come here because if we're six and three quarters instead of eight, they will still come here. So it's nice to be able to pick up those extra dollars and it is the fairest tax to the residents of the county.

A couple of points. Number one, we're the ninth largest county in the state, and we have the lowest sales tax of any county even close to our size. That's a real important point. Another one is that it's just like an automobile. You drive an old car, you're wearing it out, and the maintenance on that vehicle exceeds the value of a car payment. In this situation with a jail it is the maintenance costs are starting to get to a point where there's no return whatsoever With the cost operating and with the cost of building materials going up. It's accelerating quickly that's what you have to be careful of this this that property out of everyone i've visited which was four of them doing my homework and i come from the real i have real estate background it is in far more deplorable shape than any other one i was in there's spalding concrete in there the steel is rusting a door i think if i'm not mistaken is six thousand dollars and the hardware that for that door is not even available the new new jails are more efficient With energy and if you weigh out the cost of maintenance versus the cost of new yes, it's going to be put on a sales tax, but the Initial part of it the maintenance costs will go down significantly with a newer jail Which will help us catch up with the money that's retained for it Is anybody else like to come up and speak at the microphone?

Well, we haven't even opened up our second hearing yet, so you want to wait for the second hearing? Thank you. Anybody else so we can start the second hearing?

By the way, for the purposes of discussion, the committee looked at the study by the same people that looked at the new one and both the other studies. Repair of the existing jail to get it to standard was $80 million, and it would still be an old jail with a deficient floor plan.

Hello.

I just have questions. Oh, no, your name and address. Oh, sorry. I'm Andrea Barlow, New Russia Township. I'm a little confused about all of this, to be honest with you. So there was a resolution for the $22 million that was saved for the jail fund. It was put into the general...

There was a $20 million resolution that was passed from the general fund into a special fund called the jail construction fund.

Okay, so it went from the general fund into the jail thing. Okay, got it. And so that's going to also be used with the tax dollars that we will end up paying. If it passes, that's going to be used that or is it being used now for consulting and things?

It's being used right now for paying for the architects, the construction manager. And we're at about from the 20 million, we're at 16.8, I think.

Okay, so it's getting used to get things prepped.

We did a site assessment to make sure that the intended site could, in fact, we could do the jail.

Okay, got it. All right, and then he was talking about a campaign. Is that just volunteers, or is our tax dollars going to pay for the campaign? No tax dollars. Can't do that. Okay.

All right, I think...

I have to say whether I'm for or against it I definitely agree that we need a new jail there's no ands ifs or buts about that I don't believe that this is a thing of people not wanting to raise taxes because like we've proven that with the Lurien City Schools they passed their tax and I think it's more of that. I don't think that that passed last time because we weren't sure that it was going to go straight to the sheriff. So there was concern about that. That's why that didn't pass. And I hate that they need – I know we need a new jail, but I think it's just a trust issue, and we're just worried that – we're just worried about how it's going to get spent and i and i feel like it's more of an allocation of funds than it is needing more money i feel like this there's tons of money going to consultants and contractors and all these things millions of dollars and you say what does seven million do but seven million here 10 million there 30 here 30 there it does add up to go towards a new jail so i feel like we're worried more about allocation and how it's i mean to to cut jobs just seems so harsh when we could have been saving all that money to go um towards the jail right now so unfortunately as a government if you you know we're not allowed to save like that that's your taxes it is our taxes so we can't say i'm not saying save it i'm saying allocate it not for contractors, not for things that, not for the types of development we're not wanting.

No, it went towards the contractors for the jail. It went towards the, what you explained about it.

Well, no, the $20 million that went into jail, yes. I'm talking about all of our tax dollars in general.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

but what we need to do is as voters and citizens we need to be able to disagree on one issue and agree on another and not disagree on the second issue just because we disagree on the first one because the jail and economic development aren't even remotely connected i understand i understand that and i agree with you on that it's just that because of how it was so closed door and there was all these plannings for years and years and we didn't know about it that puts a bad taste in our mouth to give more money that's all i'm saying

Anybody else want to speak towards this? Because I'll start the second hearing. Close the first one. Okay, let's make a motion to close the hearing.

Second. Discussion. Mr. Moore. Aye. Mr. Gallagher. Aye. Mr. Moore. We're done. Aye.

Okay, well, we're ready to start the 5 o'clock public hearing at 544. Yes.

come on judge you like hanging out oh okay you don't have to come back up you're just okay put put down put down judge comments put down ditto real big d-i-t-t-o okay well so we this second sales tax hearing on the quarter percent for 15 years for construction equipping or repair for lorraine county jail facility and lorraine county detention facility okay so judge you like the first one

i know you have to come on up you don't you don't have to come up i'm just saying yes um i think the first one gives the most flexibility if we if it can be sold to the public the voters um and again Both of these will be dedicated to criminal justice. I know what's going on in Cuyahoga County. They were getting ready to sue. Yeah, right. So we don't, obviously we're not going through that. But both of these would cover the jail and the detention facility. um my concern is that we're in this trust building process that i still fear that people will think there's too much wiggle room there there's there's too much ambiguity so i think when we go to educate people about that and i don't think this should be the end obviously i mean if you decide to put it on right if you decide to put it on then everybody has to go to work explaining it And that includes judges and other elected officials. I'm a taxpayer. I've lived in Lorain County most of my life. I was born and raised. so uh then the second one is still good um my preference is i think there's more flexibility you won't be as handcuffed so to speak with as you would with the second one but again my concern is you know if i want this to pass i want to be as simple and concrete and explainable if that's a word um to the public and um so that's i prefer the first one myself and if it goes on the ballot i would do whatever the canons allow me to do to try to educate people while respecting uh their opinions if they disagree um you know but either one i think will put us in a far better position this has long been neglected as you said it's been a long time since we first started talking about a county jail in the dh and We just have to rebuild trust. And as you know, I mean, I'm 62. You try to rebuild trust anywhere. It takes a long time. I don't think we have that kind of time. So if you put it on the ballot, we need to get to work as soon as possible. I understand what Mr. Schilling was saying. He was saying, basically, you're elected. You should put it on regardless. You made it very clear you're not doing that. So to me, that's an option. I'm not going to stand here and say, why don't you do that? I think if you want it, You want the people to weigh in on that, there'll be a lot of work that has to be done, but I think it can be done. I think like everybody said here, and all of you made very good points about we didn't know where it was going, nobody trusted where it was going, is it only gonna go to this or is it gonna be stretched to go to somewhere else? So I think I prefer one personally, but either one will suffice if we can get it on the ballot and then the real work starts. Thank you for having the meetings again.

Thank you, Judge, and thank you for participating. This whole issue of trust has been bandied around for the last six months.

Longer than that.

But I think that that's what the issue needs to boil down to is that we need to vote, and when we get done voting, we need to accept the results of the election.

And I think people need to be aware of what is going to happen. And it's not a scare tactic. It's reality. I mean, listen, we're right now at the Ohio Supreme Court with ours that we're fighting politely. But it's happening. And, you know, it's just there will have to be a lot of cuts. And it's... Some of them may be necessary. I mean, some of them, you know, probably should have happened a long time ago, right? I mean, let's take a look at things. And then some of them, they're going to devastate people, and they're not going to know. It's kind of like when in the federal system where, you know, Medicaid got cut and SNAPs got cut and all kinds of things, and everybody thought that was, most people thought that was a great idea until it happened to their family. And it happened to people they know. And it's like, oh, my God, well, how's it going to work? His wheelchair isn't going to go into the rice field. So, you know, that kind of stuff.

But you get elected to adjudicate kids and divorces and those kinds of things. And you get elected and...

Right.

The people that do that, they do it because I don't have time to learn the law.

Right, exactly.

I don't have time to figure out all this stuff.

Right.

So we need somebody to do that. Yeah, and I hope... And we elect a sheriff. Right. And we give him a badge and a gun because... we don't want to go chase bad guys and put them in jail we want him to do that and we elect a prosecutor because we want him to see to it that they go there and we get elected to manage the checkbook right and and people need to trust that we're managing the checkbook if there's one thing that i'm proud to be part of this board is that all three commissioners for the first time in my 40 years of being a good citizen and participating in the government, we have three commissioners with good financial skills. And all we expect is to say, trust us, you tell us how much money you want to do, and we'll figure out how to get the best value out of it.

One real strong point that I have, that if I'm going to spend $150-plus million of taxpayer money, taxpayers need to speak up. If this was $500, it's a whole different ballgame. And I'm very clear about that.

You can see certainly from some of the initial questions, there is great misinformation, misunderstanding about what it is about the nature of the sunset. Many people don't even realize that we collect the sales tax and it goes to the state when we get a portion of something. So, I mean, that type of thing. you know the idea that i don't use the jail so i should i pay for it well you know we can have that discussion all day long um but but it's i i think they're valid points and uh they need to be looked at and i don't even know if i made my right points that i was trying to make my heart was i had a heart issue while i was up here so don't die i'm okay but it went up to like 200 So it happens. But anyway, I just think we have a lot of educating to do. And I can try to reach my people and get them to understand that I am here trying to do, like you said, I do my job. I am trying to keep this community safe. As such, I need a detention home. I need room. And to do those things. And Just I wish the county the best of luck because well, I just think it's gonna be You know, I think we have a lot of educating and advocating to do Well, you gave me a good segue judge So I'm going to show the public right now how much revenue that comes in for just the jail.

How's that? Okay Victor can you pull up on the screen the revenue jail revenue? without the additional tax. No, no, no, that's jail, there we go. Okay, just so you can see, if you can't, I'm sorry. If you take a look at that, when you see the yellow, that is money from our general fund to put towards the jail. And what happened was, back in 1994, they passed a sales tax just for the jail. and I was commissioner in 2001 through 2004, I talked to their budget director then, and even he asked me that simple question, what did you think that you voted for in 94? Was that for the jail? And I says, yes. He says, well, they made an opinion after that that money was going to go towards the jail and salaries. And I went, what? He said, yep. So that stuck with me because if you take a look at the sales tax, back then it was six and a half percent. We're making six and a half million dollars a year. So the sales tax in 24 we collected was 13.6. That's how much money Because out of the .75 the county gets, a quarter percent goes directly to the jail. And it's not even enough to run it today. So we have to keep funding it. So in 25, you'll see what we collected in 24, the change in 24 to 25. You see our year-to-date revenue where we're at through June 30th. I mean, it just shows you the shortfalls that we're having right now with that jail. So we're going to be having a lot more discussions with the sheriff's office in regards to how much general fund money they really need to operate, and that's going to be our battle. And we really don't want to have another war in our hands when we're trying to educate the public that we really need to build a jail. I'm leaning towards, I've always leant when we started talking about this four years ago, that I believe that we should just put a quarter percent sales tax on to fund the jail only. Build it. Because the cost of a jail is not the construction. It's how many people does it take to show up and run it every day. Because those expenses go up every year through construction. through raises, through healthcare costs. I mean, in 21 I got here, I think cost was 22,000 per employee because we're self-funded healthcare. We're now up to 33,000, 34,000. So those are the type of expenses that in five years that we're dealing with trying to maintain this budget that we have. So I wanted to have that on the screen long enough so those of you that will go back and look at it on YouTube can screenshot it, or if you haven't done it now. The next page, Victor. Okay, this is the actual jail expenses. We do have data that goes back to 2018. And but right now we decided just to I guess Casey gave this to us and decided this is all we're going to do is kind of show everybody where does the money go. I showed you the revenue that comes in to help pay for the jail. Now you're looking at the revenue here or the expenses to operate the jail. so that's okay thanks victor so that i just wanted that out on the screen so people can go back and it's almost a million dollars a year increase well more yeah but anyway that'll over yeah i mean go back 10 years and take a look it's anyway um okay we've uh we're now on the second hearing would anybody else like to to come up and speak for or against doesn't matter i see brian brian knows from coming here that if you walk up really quick you can get up there so

uh brian baker 49822 graystone drive so you guys have known that i've been involved in this talking about the jail and i'm always a proponent of construction because i come out of the construction industry so i think starting in around january of 2023 commissioner moore we met with you commissioner riddell we met with you to ask about local preference and how we put local workers to work on this project we're going to ask local workers to pay the sales tax And it just kept getting pushed down the road. So I'm back again. As usual, I'm going to ask, how are we going to put local people to work for this thing? We know we like bids. I know, Marty, you'd love to have more bidders on a job. You should reach out to the city of Elyria, a job right over here at their maintenance facility. 33 bids on that job saved about $4 million in the bidding process. So I'm a little bit concerned about the construction manager at risk, because I do know how that works sometimes. You can go out for an RFP, correct? Request for proposal you can just go out there. They can bring a team along that means we might get people excluded here And you know Jeff we've had this Conversation more than once on those old blue concrete trucks that drove down the road you could be excluded in that business your former business That very much concerns me when we bring in somebody from Columbus we bring the construction manager from Columbus and They built their team from Columbus. Are we going to bring a team from Columbus to build this and exclude our workers here? I have a hard time with that. I'm all for figuring out how we build it, if we can build it, if we can figure out a way to put local workers on this job. You know, I come out of the building trades. I've been here when we didn't fund the jail to remodel it or whatever, and that was an administrator or whatever it was. We argued back then. Dave, I know we were involved back then. we knew we needed to do things but we didn't now we're at a point we have to do something and i think rardi you said 150 million i think it's 145 million we're going to talk about spending here it's a big expenditure um i i would ask it at least we reach out to make sure that we can help you and i you know i come out of the building trades and i can work with them how do we get people to come in and bid it if we get to that point um i one thing that puzzles me today and i think because i showed up at the when you guys had your committee, and I think what I heard there today was is, and I don't, maybe I'm wrong and maybe I missed the last one, I think when you approved it, I didn't go, but there was talk about you guys would fund it, so your piece, but I don't see any of the other committee people here except for the secretary. So I think that part has to come out. Somehow we gotta show that we're unified. You talk about trust, the trust is not there. I mean, so if anybody thinks it's a tax issue, I think it's a trust issue. So what I would say is, I would ask that we can come back and reach out to you guys, myself, Chuck Brookie from the building trades, to talk about this, about how we talk about local workers. and maybe that helps us get on it because I do want to see local workers do this work. I don't want somebody from West Virginia, and I know the architect said that day in his presentation, we can bring somebody from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, we can bring them from Wheeling, West Virginia, we can bring them from Kentucky. I am totally opposed to that, and if that happens, I will be totally opposed to this sales tax. So I just say that to you. You know, Dave, me and you have had this conversation a lot.

Mm-hmm.

but how do we how do we get people to buy into it when we're not going to use those people on these projects with that thank you no thanks just so you know you should be a happy guy brian because as we selected the construction manager having a very active local development plan and how they do jobs and looking at their track record for previous jobs maximizing local trade. But I can tell you from my previous business, there's not a concrete contractor in Lorain County that could build the jail. There's not a mason contractor in Lorain County large enough to build the jail. But can those people come from out of town and hire local people? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I will tell you about Granger. I understand Granger's background. I understand where they come out of Michigan. I know they don't have all the time. They aren't friendly to using local trades. Columbus got forced to because city council forced them to do it. or the county commissioners force them to do it. That's all I'm asking you is you three can make that decision to make them do that. And that's what I'm asking you. I'm not asking you to give all the work. I mean, you know me. I want all the electrical work to be done with our contractors in this county. I've always been that way. But I understand what you're saying, Jeff, but there's a lot of games. And when you're a contractor at risk, you do an RFP. They can shop them numbers around. You can get excluded from that work.

Well, it's like when we did the Justice Center. I think you said jail. It was the Justice Center. We actually made it so that because steel was the big issue. And we made it that it had to be U.S. made steel. And then the courts told us we couldn't do it, but we already had it built anyway. There was a lot of problems. Yeah, but we did a lot of things to get local preference. And unfortunately, the laws have changed.

Well, that's what I'm asking. Can you work with us to get to that point? Oh, no, I expect you guys to help at least.

Sheet Metal Workers 33, I expect them to step up and get me.

You know, my attitude towards it is, number one, there are going to be some specialty people that only do certain things in the jail system, and they're going to be wherever they come from. But I'm always selfish for Lorain County first. then i'm so then i'm selfish for the region around us then i'm selfish for the state then beyond that it just keeps going until we get the right talent because like commissioner riddell said you're going to run out of some of the trades in this county and unfortunately you're going to have to bring people this jail is a little bit different though there's going to be a lot of modular builds so a lot of it's going to be done you're going to bring it in so

I hope 100%. I'm just going to tell you. We can talk that, but you understand the industry, you know what it is. It's probably half the electricians work on that job. I was fortunate. The gentleman said he was here from Grafton. I worked there as a second-year apprentice, so I understand. That was all brick and mortar, and we were there, and that was a long job because they were all built out of brick and mortar. So with that, I just ask you to work with us. I think we can bring some pieces to you. I know it's a shame that Mr. Armbruster is not here because he was working with us on some of that. We had given him a lot of information. So I'd ask for the same consideration.

No, you bet. Well, thanks. There you go. Did you get back on chat and look up another?

I'm a very open-minded person. Okay. And the judge and the representative for Judge Cook, they presented very good visions for what we need and why we need this. So what I would ask, because as everybody has repeated, trust has been an issue. Sometimes verbiage is an issue.

We need your name and address again.

Again, Michelle Simmerman, 14902 Wheeler Road, LaGrange. And as we know, verbiage has definitely been an issue in Lorain County. So I would think if you could clarify the difference between the two. or make it a heck of a lot easier for all of us, don't have a third reading of one of them. Pick one. Pick one. Probably number two has a better chance of passing. I personally would vote for number two after hearing what the judge had to say. And as she said, we probably wouldn't vote for number one. And then I just wanted to point out that I was kind of doing just some number crunching with that's what I wasn't on Chatter I was doing some number crunching to the dismay of my junior high math teacher who said you would not have a calculator in your pocket all your life and Challenge accepted. This really isn't a big expense to each individual unless you're a big shopper. I mean, it comes down to, you know, you're going to spend a little bit of money. And for me, the peace of mind of the CEOs being safe, my children who work in the justice system, do sometimes have to visit the jail. Their safety is important. I don't want to breathe in black mold. I mean, beyond the thought of the criminals, but, you know, we do know there's black mold in anything that's that old. We do know there are health issues and there's health risks. Those people that are working in their day in and day out. So you will have my support if you can clarify the differences or clarify what you're doing or come with only one on the third reading.

There won't be a third reading. This is the last reading.

Oh, I thought this was the second reading. Oh, you only do two. You don't do three. Gotcha.

Then I'll let you know what happens next is on either July 28th or July 31st, we put it on the agenda to whether or not to move forward with one of these. We're not putting them both on the agenda.

And that would be, to me, and I think to a lot of residents like myself, because it is confusing, I came in here thinking you guys were looking for a half a percent.

I know that's well that's and I think yeah and you know depending on the prosecutor Maybe we'll put both on and we'll vote one down and pass the other one or if it doesn't show up It means we're not moving forward incredibly confusing. I know what I think they would be incredibly I think it is very confusing still today I'm looking at so public meeting aspect if we decide behind the scenes one or two Then that would be a violation of the sunshine law So I thought in order to put it out there, you know or as president I control the agenda I can just pick one And you guys would get mad at me. You wanted the other one. OK? So I don't want that. Well, we could discuss it in public. That's what I mean. We could discuss it in public.

I was going to say, we could discuss it right now when you clarify the differences to us. Because I don't understand. I'll just say this.

I like number two. I do like number two.

I don't understand the full difference. I'm just looking at the terminology. I'm looking at simplicity.

I like number two as well.

Just because it builds the jail. It doesn't cover salaries. It doesn't cover the judge left. OK, she'd be yelling at me right now. But that's just my personal opinion as one of three commissioners. Anybody else want to speak?

Amanda Quimber 2299 West River Road Elyria Ohio 44035 I just want to say yes I agree that we do need a new jail and facility there's over a hundred thousand people a year that die from drugs and alcohol I just want to say thank you for giving us the opportunity to vote on this you know because by the consent of the government that we have a real republic in our county and so I really appreciate that I just want to ask, I have a question. Was there a $2 million that was spent on an architect for the jails?

Yes. We've actually spent about close to $3 million between consultants, architects, engineers, and the construction manager to produce the product. so that we knew what we would be asking for. We can't come to the public and just say, give us $150 million and we'll figure out what to do with it because obviously there's not enough trust for that and there shouldn't be. But at the end of the day, we had to move the project forward enough to where we could say, this is it. we know we can deliver a quality jail at this price this size and we had to get the buy-in of the sheriff we had to get the buy-in of the judges and we added the prosecutor to that mix even though and we added in mental illness community we added in the clerk of courts well by statute right we invited everyone to the table for two years when we did this

And then all of a sudden we found out there's some law from the 1950s that said we're supposed to form a committee. So then we had to start and form the committee. And we did that for two months, I believe. And those were all public and attended by the media. even had participation of public defenders so that they could say this is what we need in order to service our clients while they're in the jail you know like you know when they come into the jail where they can walk in and meet with them without going through the jail i mean it's right now the way it's set up is it's not safe for anybody and is there itemized breakdown of all those funds and all that three million dollars where it went yes there is sure

where do we it's been it's been requested already public records over the conversations over the last you know 60 days or so so that's all you have to do is ask for it okay yeah all right thank you i i want to make a clarification i'm actually supporting the first one you are yeah i i think the other one's a little more confusing I read the construction.

The first one just gives us a little more leeway, and I probably get shot for saying this, but the reality is the second one just says the jail and the detention home. And should there, through good fortune, should there be money left over? One of the things that we took out of this is there are no offices for the sheriff's office. There are no new offices. We took that out. This is strictly the jail.

Well, it also says construction equipping or repair for county jail facility. That's meaning just repair it versus rebuilding it.

right now based on this conversation we might be putting both on the agenda and we'll have to have a vote i'm just saying because i was like yeah clarity so the first one is for the building of the jail yes a new jail they both are they both are well it says or

But by broadening it to criminal justice and administrative services, it could be done, it's more than just, it could be used for more things than just the jail and the detention home.

Okay, there's actually, how many pages is this? What is it, one full page? It's more detailed than what is there.

The resolution is like two pages. The resolution is... Things will change because that's kind of old. Yeah. I haven't updated it, updated it, so it was just...

But that's truly the difference between the two. The second one is strictly for those things. Okay, so if we wanted to do the offices for the sheriff, we couldn't do that. But if we had money left over, To put those back into the project, number one, gives us the flexibility to do that.

My question is on number two. It says construction equipment or repair of the Rain County Jail. So out of that tax base of the quarter percent, how much is going to go to the repair of the old jail and divert away from the construction of the new jail?

Well, that's a floating bogey because right now we think we have things under control, but there's several years before we actually move people into a new jail. Even if the tax passes, the construction drawings have to be done. We've got to put a shovel in the ground, and it's going to take almost two years to build the jail. So during that time, we recognize that the existing jail may need some remedial work.

I get that, but you also have revenue coming in from the sales tax, the current sales tax to offset that. Let's not lose track of what...

Right, but those dollars are being spoken for and then some by current services that the taxpayers expect us.

Plus, which includes

Right, and right now we're funding the jail to about $5 million out of the general fund.

Above and beyond the sales tax authority.

Beyond the sales tax.

And that doesn't include...

If the choice, the second choice is chosen, you're telling all of us that we need $154 million or $147 million? $147 million?

You know, the current estimate for the sheriff is 145 for that facility that we approved. But remember that that jail next year, nothing changes. That jail is probably going to be 150 million because there's about $5 million a year in cost creep.

yeah but also you got to remember what will happen is why i said what i said back in the beginning the sales tax collections were about 6.5 million in 2004. so sales tax as we grow as a county will continue to rise so we're all talking about 145 million dollar jail and we're talking about 14 million and we're doing a conservative 14 million a year well in 15 years six and a half million that we've been collecting back in 2004 is up to $14 million. So what would happen? Let's just hypothetically say we're getting $25 million a year 10 years from now. Okay, well, that $10 million a year, what do we do with that? If you voted for it, we'd have to ask for you again to vote and say, look, we have an extra $50 million sitting here. What do we do with it? You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the other one gives us more flexibility to go only criminal justice. Is that right?

Yeah.

Okay, I just want to make sure because...

I was just talking to Teresa. We should have her read the exact language in each of the... No, she wasn't ready for that, she said.

No. I'm not. I was just explaining to them that, like, these are these codes and these are these codes, so we could state that.

Yeah, go ahead. Do number one and issue the ORC the code for number one. So number one. Do you want me to write this down? Number one. What question?

Okay, you're talking about these numbers. What you guys aren't addressing is that with the cost of materials going up, the cost of products, and the sales tax attached to it, it's a percentage. So whether it's 5% or 6%, if that thing now costs $100 and used to cost 50, it's still 4% of 100, not 4% of 50. So that's got to be figured in, the escalation. So I always have issues with sales tax because it's a percentage, not a fixed number. And the state pulls that game all the time. There's no way the state should be 5.75 with all the other crap that they've got with income tax and all the other stuff that they do, property taxes. all the hidden taxes we're not even aware of uh they they are now getting 5.75 of an inflated cost or something so my point is or my question is at what uh what is the actual numbers that we actually need we know we need based on what you're telling us from the the the uh that it's roughly going to be $150 to build the jail. A million. And that's based on what, two year, five year? What's the construction time frame?

24 months.

24 months, two years. Okay. So out of that, with the cost of inflation going up, are we going to have the operating funds out of the general funds allocated for the sheriff to cover the maintenance on the current jail in the meantime or are we going to have a shortfall because we're taking allocated money out of the project to maintain the current jail that's my question other questions was answered i don't think there'll be a shortfall because that's what you pay us for yeah right now we have a shortfall with the ask from every elected official including the sheriff

of a deficit of 17. They're asking $17 million more than what we're going to take in. So now that's when we... You saw that. That was last time. So now we've got to go to work and figure out how do we get it balanced. And that's what we do every year.

Your current budget is $11 million, correct? What's that? What's your current? You've got 17, but you've got what?

They're asking for $109 million.

We're at $90 million in anticipation, and they're asking for $109 million.

Thank you. I thought I'd come up.

I see Brian Baker trained you right.

The question I have is on the first one. When you have flexibility, you requiring that that money goes to pay for the facilities first before you go into flexibility or could somebody come along and say well we don't have enough money for the the sheriff's you know whatever and we're going to pay for that and then the actual price of the jail gets kicked that's an awfully suspicious question that i would say it's flexible i mean if it's flexible it has to be like something in there has to be fixed for that jail

Well, the way the jail will be done, they'll start out, we'll go out for bonds because we won't have $150 million to build it. So we'll go out and we'll bond it out, and that will be calculated within the time frame of the actual sales tax.

So it's definitely going to pay for the bonds. Oh, yeah.

It has to cover the bond. And we're not going to go 30-year bonds on a 15-year income.

Right.

Well, hey, I've seen it in government. We've all seen it, right? I mean, look what's going on in Cleveland. Well, yeah, they're still trying to figure out how to pay for certain things. I don't want to go there. That's another story.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure.

But that kind of gives you the big overall what we're trying to do, which is we're going to bond it out. so we can hurry up and pay everybody, get it built in, and those payments and everything else will be included. And we might do it in sections like five years here, seven-year bond, so we can pay down that debt as we get closer to the 15-year expiration of that sales tax.

okay and it doesn't do anything with the general fund at all i mean the general fund whatever is going to the sheriff in the jail now in the general fund keeps going to the sheriff in a jail in the general fund and this is just something extra well subject to the budget hearings we're going to have but none of this revenue goes to those general doesn't go to the general fund doesn't go to the general fund okay it goes into what they call a q construction account Which is for the jail?

For the jail and detention home.

Okay. I looked at Q construction once and it looked like you were using that like doing cash advances for infrastructure. I actually thought it was an infrastructure fund.

No, all it paid for was the architect, construction manager.

But we have done cash advances, like on sewer projects and stuff, because the money's not in. So what we do, we'll do an advance, and you'll see it on our, you know, because we disclosed everything. So you'll see it up there on the screen in advance. And what we're hoping for is, let's say, the sewer projects in Sheffield Township, okay? We had to advance the money on that, because we knew the grant was coming from CDGB, MBG, I mean. And then, so we will advance general fund money. And then we wait for that grant to come in.

When the grant comes in, we get paid back.

Then we vote to get it paid back. So that goes on almost.

That's in the transfers.

Yeah, yeah, you'll see it in the transfers. So you'll see that every meeting. You'll see something where you have an advance.

Well, it was in Q Construction.

That's why I thought Q Construction was a. Oh, yeah, we plan on probably seeing some of that, too, and several different. We do it. They do a lot of it. Now, what happened is I haven't really gotten the final numbers back before we all got here in 2000, probably for 10 years. There's about $12.5 million in advances, other projects that the previous administration did. And I'm like, you know what? If there's no money to pay back the advance, what good is it? Okay.

Okay. Thanks.

Would anybody else like to speak? OK, before we close the hearing, is there a preference between the three of us in regards to having this on the ballot? Would you guys like to have this on the agenda for a vote? Well, you too. I would support it. It's OK to put on the agenda. Sure, yeah. OK, would you like to put both of them on the agenda? Or would you guys like to pick one for the agenda? I personally think we should have both on there just to let... That's fine.

Is that okay?

Sure. Okay, would you guys like to do this on July 28th or July 31st? Those are the only last two meetings before the deadline. I'm looking over here. Teresa's 28th. Would you like to do it the 28th? She's mouthing outside.

I would prefer the 28th because then we still have Friday to do something different. So if we screw up, okay. Thank you.

She's not going to say it, but yeah, in case we screw up. Okay, then we'll schedule this for...

I know what she's talking about. I know.

I'm just saying you might change your mind from Tuesday to Friday, you know, and you still got Friday to make it.

Okay, Teresa, that's enough.

Did you want me to read what these codes were?

Yeah, read the code. Issue number one that we talked about, this is the code reference.

Under issue number one, it would be the quarter percent for 15 years under Ohio Revised Code 5739.021 and 5741.021. And this is for sales and use tax for the purpose of supporting criminal administrative justice services. specifically to construct, equip, or repair Lorain County Jail Facility and Lorain County Detention Home Facility and to provide additional revenue to operate and maintain safe facilities. Number two is quarter percent, 15 years, Ohio Revised Code 5739.026, A5, A7, 5741.023, sales and use tracks to construct, equip, or repair any specific permanent improvement and operate or maintain a detention facility.

And in a perfect world, we would love to get both facilities built and have a couple of bucks left over that we could use as a maintenance fund for those buildings. Because even a one-year-old or a two-year-old building needs some maintenance. Number one allows that. Number two is for construction.

Thanks for coming in.

Number two, construct, equip, or repair any specific permanent improvement and operate or maintain a detention facility.

A detention facility. Which is both the jail and...

Both are detention facilities. One's adults and one's youth. Before you close, can I ask one more question?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

Not to the size you need. What the state of Ohio does is they actually grant, they'll give like, they had $50 million last cycle for jails. For 88 counties. For 88 counties. And what you did is you applied for a grant and hopefully you'd get money for the design and the engineering and stuff. But we had money left over from ARPA. So by putting that through the general fund and setting it aside, we use that money so that we could get ready the day that the tax is approved, we're ready to go. That's the goal.

Yeah, it doesn't mean we're not asking for it. We're gonna keep asking for it, but when the funds, 50 million. Oh, are you kidding me? No, we're always, we're getting in trouble for asking for grants. We did, yeah.

Okay, anything else? We need to close this hearing. Yeah, what? We need to close this hearing if nothing else.

Okay, motion to close? Second. Hearing? Second.

Commissioner Moore?

Aye.

Commissioner Dell?

Aye.

Commissioner Gallagher?

Aye. Okay, we are adjourned, and thank you all for participating.

Best hearing in my three and a half years. Thank you all.