Select Board - Regular Meeting

We're going to have to do something. You ready? Ready. All right. Good evening, Littleton. Today is Tuesday, May 27th at 6:30 p.m. and we'll call this meeting to order. Yeah. All right. Let's start with the or uh pledge of allegiance, please. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We should decide who is the clerk tonight. Mark, is it you or me? I'll be the clerk. Okay. We have an abbreviated agenda this evening um due to a couple absences. We'll start with uh department board updates and requests. Um then we'll have public input and members updates. 7:00 we'll start a joint meeting with the finance committee. 8:30 select board discussions regarding town boundary markers among other things. And we will adjourn promptly at 9:30 or sooner. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh the mail for tonight, we've got uh current vacancies on our boards. We've got uh opportunities uh through appointment by the select board of agricultural commission, conservation, economic development, historical, master plan, permanent municipal building committee, zoning board of appeals, and one appointment by the school committee to be on the finance committee of the of of the school department. We have signed up Littleton to receive public notifications for the town of Littleton. Scan uh the QR code or register at www.ittletonmma.org/subscribe. Community impacts, public safety activity, town

events, transportation issues, town meeting changes, public health concerns, town events. I already said that. Sorry. Stay informed. Uh here we've got some decisions by the alka um ABCC out of Boston that um the select board was aware of when they uh when the ABCC conducted a compliance checks. Uh and they've got common foods Littleton subshop. Uh they did have a their decision was a warning and that was uh and I and that was uh the uh the date of the hearing. I'm sorry I I'm missing it. May six. Oh, May. Thank you very much. It's uh it was May 6, 2025, and they've uh after the finding effects, they concluded a warning would be uh would be appropriate. Um and then moving on to uh Littleton Onetop Liquors. Again, these all have been because of serving minors and that hearing also was on May 6th and also the commission issued a warning uh to the uh which would be appropriate. And here we have sorry there was one last time too. There was a warning we talked about whether we are going to send a letter as a follow-up. Have we done anything? Are we going to we going to if we want to um we have to answer your first question. Um we have not so not sure whether you want to bring them in to understand also or how you would how you would want basically the the temperament of the of the of the letter. I think we should send a letter. I don't necessarily feel that we need to pull them in. I don't know if others agree with that or not. What would the letter say? um saying that we're aware of the violation, you know, that we, you know, don't you know, it's just a

acknowledgement that we know that this happened and give them another warning basically a warning from us that we're watching too. So that would be my that would be my feeling for it. What do you It's got the CC is the local licensing board. Yeah. So of their So they know that that you are all aware. But however you want to do it. Um, I don't I don't feel that we need to. I don't feel strongly that we that we don't need to. I guess I would probably skip it. I think we do. I think it's I think that when when we're made aware of it by the police department, we brought them in and took and took action then. But these weren't from the police department. No, no, I understand. But I'm saying like we also can enforce issues, right? Like and we now know. So if something happened locally, we would have this on their record, right, in order to decide what how to, you know, what what to what the consequences are. So I think it's sufficient that we are aware and they're aware that we're aware. Okay. That's just my that's my take. I'm okay with no letter. All right. And lastly, for the town mail, we've got uh um a gift acceptance form um from uh Sam at at the library and in the amount of $5,000 and the the name of the party offering the gift was John C. Morrison and Ununis B. Morrison Charitable Foundation and it's in recognition of the library's good work uh to assist uh and to help and assist in their in in the library's mission for library pro programming. Thank you very much for your generosity. The Morrison Foundation's been very generous throughout town. I think they give to the scholarship fund and a couple other things, too. Outstanding. Yeah. Um, Madam Chair. Okay. Um, we skipped over the um the U 20B exemption number two. So, let's jump back to there first. Sorry. That's okay. We did. No,

we that's next on the agenda. Next on the Yeah, we just did the mail. I know, but isn't that No, we just did the mail there. So, we're on to number two. All right. Now, we can move on. Yay. Okay. All right. Let's move on. This is um as uh with with from the cover letter uh from um Alicia uh she has expressed that we need to go through the the normal process of exempting um exempting uh excuse me. Would have been great if it fell over. um uh Spence Cowette and uh in order for uh that person to be able to work uh during the summer for parks and recreation and the motion is um part of the control sheet. I don't have the motion here. Got the motion. Yeah. Yeah, I have the motion. So, this is just a summer employment. It's not going. So, it's not going to Yeah, cuz the app maybe in our contract or something somewhere it should say what the expected end date is cuz I didn't I just don't see it if it's it might be in here. I just never saw it. So, okay. I don't have any other comments other than that. Yeah, I mean the position is summer. Yeah, counselor. So, I think we can imply it, but it's a good point. Sir, good. Yep. Move the select board vote to acknowledge a disclosure by a municipal employee of financial interest in a municipal contract and approve the exemption of Spencer Cowette as a municipal employee in accordance with Mass General Law Chapter 268A section 20B. Second move by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I. Okay. And a conservation commission vote to authorize the commission to accept a gift

of land located at 16 Dober Drive. Correct. Um this is uh this is something that is uh according to the conservation agent, it is a is it a parcel of land that is that is protected around the around its perimeter and they the conservation commission uh would like to be able to include that to be as as protected land. Any questions? No. Okay, let's go ahead. Move by the move that the select board authorize the conservation commission accept as a gift from John Mweeny the land located at 16 do drive Littleton Mass identified on Littleton assessor's map as U23-16-0 and being the same land that was deed to John Mweeny by Daniel Mweeny by deed record deed recorded at book 12 395 page 13 which parcel contains 2.66 66 acres more or less for conservation and passive recreation purposes under article 97 of the Massachusetts Constitution and on such terms as the conservation commission shall deem to be in the best interest of the town. Second. Moved by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I. Thank you very much, Mr. Mcweeny. Now we've got public input, members updates. Does anybody want to go first or shall I start? I'll start. Okay. Um I um Well, thanks to everyone for the great turnout for the Memorial Day parade and the wonderful weather. Um that was me. Yeah. Well, thank you. Um I went to the bicycle and pedestrian um committee meeting a few weeks back

um and um they're all on board with more sidewalks and the RFBs in town and they are going to start working with highway and and um the town administrator's office to look at potentially what the ramifications and um ability to change the main roads through town from state highways to local roads. All of the surrounding towns have the state highways as local roads through the center, which gives them more control. So, they're going to come back with a report at some point on what the advantages and disadvantages are. Um, I was approached by someone outside the senior center the other day saying, "We really love the senior center, but it would be really nice to put a bench out front." Um, and a while back before the senior center was built, when um Ed passed away, we talked about um putting something with his name on it. So, I think we should reinvestigate having a bench out there and um with, you know, in honor of him. So, good call. I like that. Yep. Do you want to do that as something you'd like the the the town to absorb or is that something that a bench would be a part of a donation? Uh well well ed gave so much money to the senior center previously so we should figure out if we what we can do. Understood. Um okay so yes sir. I think highway might have something or there might be other alternatives we can look into. No absolutely no I I'm sure the resource will be there. I just wanted to understand with how you wanted to do it going forward. Um that's what I have off the top of my head. See. All right. Um oh wait one more. Oh, the middle school play was two weeks ago. Oh, well then go ahead. Go ahead. I wanted to congratulate everyone that performed in it. I actually missed the performances.

I was unable to make it, but I heard good things. Yeah, it's a mad house, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Um I was going to say thank you um to everyone who's involved in the Memorial Day parade, especially John Barski um and the high school marching band. And um many thanks to all those who helped prepare the common and the cemetery including um our scouts among others. And thanks to everyone who attended. It was a really it was a beautiful day and a really a really nice ceremony and a lovely parade. Um I don't think we've met since the ribbon cutting. So we thanks to everyone who um pulled off the ribbon cutting. I think last I heard it was what we're estimating what 300 people approximately. Yeah. in attendance which is huge. Um Jamarcier was there and Jamie um Eldridge sent a citation. So I want to thank Liz Triiac and our vendors um PNBC, Eric and George and facilities um and the many many many others who helped uh make all that happen. Um middle school for it's a mad house. Um, and I wanted to uh mention that I saw the parks and wreck newsletter and they announced um the Long Lake contribution in um as part of their beach pass fee this um this year. And um I know that's something that Clean Lakes and you Jim and Parks and Recck Commission and the Parks and Rec department have all been working on in the past uh in the sort of behind the scenes. And I just think it's a great example of um what happens when different parts of our government get together and work together to make things happen. And um it's a creative some creative problem solving and I really uh appreciate everyone's efforts there. Um shade tree committee met on the 14th. they uh went over their bylaw. It's with Harrington. Um we're waiting for it to come back and then they're going to take it over to um the planning board who is

also looking at some tree conservations um initiatives. So, they're going to try to collaborate there. Um Clean Lakes was scheduled for May 20th, but they had to reschedule um due to some technical difficulties. So, no update on that. That's all I have. Um, not much for me. I did enjoy the Memorial Day parade and it was nice weather and it was a nice turnout. So, and thank you to John for many years. That's all I got. Few few things I'd like to highlight. Um, we are talking I had talked to the uh DPW director this morning. Uh, he still is not does not have the safety zone signs in, but he anticipates they will be they should be in this week. So, and I have sent an email to uh Department of Transportation about the flashing um crosswalks. Uh Mr. Rambaka, you had u asked an email, I believe it was last week, that um about uh other crosswalks that would be available from the one that was approved by the state, the one through that uh the DPW director had applied for up at Shaker Lane. It's on It's on um right on on on gold. Um so there will be an RFB being installed at Goldsmith and Roxberry Drive. Yes, thank you. And um so uh I I had uh talked about what your your email was and with with the question about other areas. Was there a limit to how many we could do? How what does this program usually do? Uh uh Steve Mr. Yan Lee had had expressed to me this is the first year that they've done that. There are no limitations. Uh but there is a criteria and and the one that he had submitted appears to be the most appropriate one. But as I encouraged him to let's just do a lot more on uh on

Goldsmith Street and just uh let them let this let let the state um let's let's see how we can uh have a conversation with the state about that. So, um, so that's, uh, that's progressing. Um, I I know it could be quicker, but we're, uh, but it's moving. The paving will be starting, uh, uh, pretty soon. Um, which paving? Uh, the the paving plan for I don't know the the streets exactly, the sewer plan or No, no, no, no. Uh, DPW uh, with the contract that I signed, the $526,000. Is that No, no. It's um, Ernie's Drive. Ernie Drive. Okay. Um, it was in E1 CE. Uh, the cemetery department, their building renovation RFP is with Kim Kuvo. Uh, Ms. Kuvo uh completed all three stages of uh becoming an MCPPO C certified in a week, week and a half. Great. I was right. Fantastic. So, uh she has submitted for her uh um um uh for her certification from the state and we uh uh as uh part of the the update that I will be forwarding you is uh also informing you that uh Ashley Guvo and the the accounting office will also go through the process and that will be uh free of charge from the inspector general's office. Great. And um so we're uh the building department and uh facilities is working for CEO for 36 King Street. Uh the well pump was installed at the orchard I believe last week. Yep. And uh and it is it is not on town water. So whatever is coming out of there that's uh you know and they're just going to continue um seeing where that takes them. But but we will need to discuss switching the barn water over to the metered. So because

right now the town is paying for the water meter that's going into the barn. Okay. So it both has there's a well but there's also town water supply to the barn. So that should will need to be switched to be built to um Bransfield. Understood. So I don't know when that's going to happen or who is who and I I also don't know that John is aware of that but I know Eric is aware of it and so we need to coordinate with Light and Water to do that. Okay. And um I can speak to John, but I'd probably prefer that Eric did it um just to keep the lines of communication clear. I will I will ask him to do that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Uh we understood that uh from the building department this morning, department head meeting 234 Taylor Street, a foundation permit was pulled. Another thing um 76 charging stations are going in Amazon at the Amazon at the Amazon location. 76 of them and they are moving forward on that. Another thing regarding Amazon, I believe uh the mobile station would be there would be a line down the street with Amazon trucks with with fueling. They're going to be doing mobile fueling on site at night. So that takes away from any any traffic that would be right there at the corner at the at the common. They will be doing that. And um and I believe it's tomorrow evening early evening there will be a cert uh training exercise of uh at the orchard in the house and it's it's really it's an aftermath of finding people after a tornado after a hurricane things of that nature. It's it's not nothing's being destroyed. It's really just a search and rescue by by u the citizens emergency response team sir. So and that will be held tomorrow night and that's it. Okay, you ready? Jerry's on her way. Okay. Yeah, we can do public input.

[Applause] Um, I said at the last meeting after the town meeting that I recommend a public hearing be held with regard to the issue of property taxes. I'm repeating that request tonight. Uh since the last meeting, I've started to scratch the surface on what I heard in that hourlong discussion of uh public comment with regard to 37 Shadic Street. I heard many many issues concerned with property taxes. As a result, I've tried to um scratch the surface. One item that I found um is that and I was surprised uh Littleton has a property tax deferral program for seniors. It's eligible to to all kinds of seniors. It's quite nice from the standpoint you can defer $1 or you can defer your entire amount of property taxes. It doesn't require attorney. All you do is go into the assessor's office. You then go to the town clerk. You signed a piece of paper and your property taxes get paid upon either the first of your death or the sale of your property. It all reads really, really nice. And so I then learned, but there are only four residents taking making use of it. So that struck me as being a little bit odd given the last town meeting discussions, comments, and the previous town meetings that I've heard with regard to property taxes. So I dug deeper and lo and behold, what I suspect is the problem with the deferral program is that the dollar value hasn't been updated since 2014 in the November 12th, 2014 special meeting. At that time, the concept was to bring it up to what's known as the

circuit breaker that all residents of Massachusetts have connecting with regard to dollar threshold with regard to their state income taxes. And that circuit breaker now has for a single um person in in a household a dollar value of $72,000. For a couple um the dollar value is $109,000. And lo and behold, we haven't updated our program, the deferral program since 2014, such that the income level for a household is $55,000. Now, I think that's probably a pretty significant challenge for many households that they probably can't meet. They probably have more income than 55. I'm sure there's some that don't, but I bet there are a whole lot of households, some of which I bet are some of the people that are are um talking during town meetings, more or less protesting the dollar value of property taxes. And it seems to me like a program that the town has already got existing, ought to be brought up to snuff to equal that circuit breaker. or I'd like to have discussion in a public hearing or some other appropriate place as to why um such such an item shouldn't be addressed because I think it could be responsive to what I hear. Um I've got some other ideas but I don't want to take up the time. I'm looking forward to your agenda with the fcom, you know, tonight but did want to bring that one up because I think I encourage some discussion. happy to discuss this anybody offline but um but think something ought to be done in anticipation of more moneydriven issues that are coming our way whether it's Shaker Lane you know building or DPW or you know we can rattle off the list there's too many of them that are coming up for me not to think that this isn't something worthy of time and

consideration so thank you for your attention thank you Jim is that us or the board of assessors with assessors. The board with assessors would raise that. Okay. We have a court. We are in session. [Music] [Applause] Okay. Um there was a meeting that was held the uh this morning with the uh finance team, the superintendent of schools uh also attended and we had representatives uh from Vertex really trying to understand uh some the the shortfalls that uh for 36 King Street uh originally purchased in the amount of $3.5 million and um there is approximately uh there was bid is that uh specs that were written for for it back in um uh 23 and then early 24 uh for $3.4 $4 million and contingency uh has been used uh and also an addition additional funds of approximately a couple hundred,000 that were part there was an article in the town meeting

recently and I believe it was I think it was last fall that it was there were uh balances on certain capital projects that were left over maybe a half a dozen and they were all scooped up and identified and and utilized for that um uh the Vertex um met with Brian Fords uh Forbes and uh we uh uh went through the the history and the scenario that was there and trying to under understand uh and basically there was uh there was a culmination of [Music] uh there was a culmination of uh of a timing issue. there was uh it it needed to it needed to get done um fa uh it needed to get done fast for uh for a fall town meeting. Uh the OPM um was selected in December uh 30th uh when finally informed of in in 2023 Springtown meeting presented a $3.4 $4 million estimate, but to to try and do that estimate in that kind of a time frame, uh it was it was it was rushed. It was uh there wasn't enough time there. And I believe that it and I had asked the question of uh clearly what was the necessity of of rushing it. It's It's not like anybody had to move in or we something had to be done, but apparently there was the building had been um dormant for for a few years and there was a uh from what I gather uh from um other people that were here. There was a uh a pressure to to purchase the building within a certain amount of time because there were other there were other interested parties or

whatnot. So it was it was the decision to move forward, purchase the property and um look at uh getting um the appropriation in the annual town meeting of 2024. Uh the the bid specs went out and the bid documents went out I believe in in April of 24. Uh and that was the time frame that was given to the architect, the designer and the OPM. And it was something that there wasn't what I gathered there really wasn't the time appropriate to do the investigative uh evaluation of the building. there could have been a much more thorough if they had let's say if it if it was postponed till November and um it was something that uh um was felt that it's it's it's going to be it's going to be sufficient for for May move forward and and that's what uh and that's what we uh uh the takeaway from there um so as and unfortunately as as the contractor got into the building, more and more things were discovered. And there were and what you have before you um with these with these sheets is this is exactly what the takeaway from from today's meeting with with Vertex. And you can you can see those are these are all the all the change orders and there they there's different use codes for that. And if you look going from the left, your fifth column from the left going to the right, it says PCO reason. And you'll see the legend that's up there of of reasons why, whether it's unforeseen conditions, scope change by the architect, owner change request. It it lists all of those uh those areas. What this has been this has really been

reached come to the surface right now as a result of a couple things. The insulation was was never brought into consideration uh and there's there's and right now as of last winter g as the facilities manager had had explained to me the heat is going right up through through the roof. Okay. And with the new roof on there. So here you have melting snow and everything like that. What that will do is that will melt to the sides and it creates ice dams and you've got these massive things, massive ice dams which create uh leaking and and everything like that. Just the worst case scenario. So, um, the other issue, as you can see, pretty much number 47 down the the first page, you can see HVAC attic unit replacement, and that was a decision that was um not to pursue a change order at that time because the cost, as you can see, is is over $300,000. They did replace some of the units that were up there. There was a 15 ton um unit that is that is up there. So when they did have the new roof that was uh that was put on as that ad alternate during the with the bid specs uh it was still it was it was it was the decision of just continuing forward and just it's a matter of maintenance and a matter of making sure it it it it continues it it works. Uh there were some smaller units that are up there that were replaced but then there are some that are have lived past their life expectancy and it's uh it's it's not a matter of whether uh they will fail it's a matter of when uh so you know clearly it you know the question was I mean I you know is there any any areas of responsibility that could have been done a little bit better and there was really it's really just a matter of the timing issue just did not

just there's no it's no one's fault if you want to say I'm not I'm not here to point fingers at anybody. Um but so as the facilities manager as my with my updates and I meet regularly with with Eric uh I had uh asked him about um and he gave me this update and he had mentioned about the um uh the uh the insulation and so the takeaway from another takeaway to conclusion of how I would recommend to to the select board and the finance committee we move forward we would move forward on parallel tracks and the parallel tracks would be considered that the most the most important thing that we need to do is insulate the insulate the attic. That's step number one for a couple reasons because it needs you needs to be the the building really can't be occupied for at least 24 hours uh once that blowing insulation is in there and uh fumes things of that nature and it's thought of okay do it on a Friday that way the whole weekend and and things of that nature. um that is approximately $200,000 that is not on here and that's because that was uh to get that installation was done separately offline by our facilities manager and working with Diane Dickinson uh in uh up in in our office that uh through green communities and the green communities can uh can pay a uh a portion of that $200,000 approximately $80,000 of 70 something thousand. So, we're looking at 126 approximately $126,000. Uh looking at the town's portion to uh to put the insulation in. The other the other track that we we would need to explore is it is the recommendation to do a full assessment of the mechanical options. There are there are two ways to go. There's we can

go a hybrid. We can go the hybrid route in which you have uh the uh electricity as your daily operations, your daily your daily heating and and and cooling and things of that nature. And gas is there as a backup because it it it it's it's right there. It's already it's already gas gas gas gas fed. Uh but we're also the other issue is and um as as you all know by 2050 we want to be a carbon-f free free area and is it something that we want to uh look at in doing going the full full options of the of the electrical the hybrid option there is there is not there is not any uh green communities money or money like that that's available for that kind of stuff because it is hybrid because the gas is is is in there. uh we can we will absolutely we're continuing to look into the uh the financial resources available beyond beyond us for the uh for a full electrical and however and how that would take place and I know Mr. Rambacha, you know, knows a lot more about that than uh than I do. He could probably speak to to the advantage of that. Um so, uh in that, but the first thing is to do the full assessment mechanical. The reason the full assessment, it's a unique building in such a way that you have areas that are cut up and you have sheltered areas and then you've got a massive hall where the where the music where the music hall was. So there's a lot of different demands and challenges in order to be able to have the most efficient system there and it is uh and so it was the the facilities manager agreed with uh uh with the um with the assessment of

having the full uh mechanical uh s uh issue going uh being being reviewed. Um Dr. uh doc in talking to Dr. clenchy after he uh you know he agreed with uh you know the uh the school the school department will make that will make an investment a you know a portion towards that. He agreed it makes sense. It's a long-term investment and it's something you know it's it's a town asset. So he felt it's it it is appropriate to uh to do and um and you can if there are any questions I can I can answer these uh on on the uh on the sheets here. Um the green areas where it says ready for PMBC mostly on the second page uh those are still being vetted by the OPM the architect and the contractor and those have not been finalized or submitted to the PMBC for uh for approval as of yet. But everything else is clearly labeled uh with the with the legend for the reason of um uh where those change orders uh the reason for those change orders and uh any potential comments that are associated with uh whether whether it was approved. Grab that. Um so any questions? I'll try and do the best I can uh to answer anything just to get an overall scope. So yes, sir. Just want to make sure I'm I'm reading this right. So we're basically short uh 7001,000 plus the 126. No, sir. Uh the we're we are there's probably 500,000 total. Okay. Okay. So we get the 126 there. We're looking at at least the the 300,000 for the new HVAC, but we would have to identify

probably with approximately $50,000 to have the the full assessment of the mechanicals and what what what the most efficient system in in the building would be. So, we're we're hovering in the 500,000 range. Okay. I'm just trying to understand then you see at the the bottom where I'm seeing this, right? Why is that number not the book? Um there because there are just there there were some things that have been taken care of there. Uh okay. These are the real big ticket items. All right. Thank you. The most so I I understand on the that if the valuation of the building was hasty or rushed or had time pressure that that things could be missed. I guess um in the letter that Matthew Stur sent us sent you that you forwarded to us, the project director, he said that the project team had determined that some of these owner change requests were approved had been they the project team decided that these had been approved. Like the project team decided that some of these owner change requests were appropriate now that the contractor was on site and that we would do them. And the three big ones, the electrical scope, the restroom, and the lighting, came up to almost 300 $280,000. Right? So, I guess my question is, who is that team that decided and who was involved in making the decision that that was fiscally responsible? Because now we're coming back and saying to whoever to finers or to, you know, like we need we need another $300,000 to finish this building. So I guess like who was included in that process and why wasn't that process why weren't we alerted sooner because I know when Ryan was here and giving us updates I said you know are these are these delays going to impact the budget and he said no. So I don't know if he knew at that time or not whether these change orders had been approved but I think it safe to say that you know $284,000 of change orders is

probably bigger than the contingency and probably would have blown up the budget. So So where was the decision made I guess is my question. And who made it? It was collective and I think the fin the final decision was through the recommendation from from from uh the engineer uh the engineer consultant being the architect uh the the OPM with vertex and and the uh uh permanent building committee that so PNBC was part of that that move as well. So, I I'm going to um go with you, Matthew. Like, I don't know how I mean, we had according to this line item, we had $218,000 in contingencies and we went to $261,000 in our own change requests, which we already starting to blow out the budget. You know, you're overbudget at that point. So, I don't know how we let this happen, right? I someone should have caught this a long time ago before we did these change requests. I I do feel like there was a some like somewhere there's a lack of oversight like like um surprised that nobody knew like nobody like I didn't know about any of this until you know a few days ago. Mhm. And and I I'd rather not I I'd rather not I'd rather this be blameless and we find out the cause of this so it doesn't happen again because there's no quicker way to lose the trust of the people who are giving us money to do these things than coming back to them and saying, "Oops, we accidentally spent $300,000 of your money and we didn't know that we did it." Right. Like that's just a bad look. Well, I I I I think in uh the I think the the marathon here was uh the idea of taking those ending balances for those capital projects and having that as a further safety net if you want to say beyond the contingency because it it potentially could have looked like the the contingency was going to we shouldn't have done even at that point of using that extra capital

money. We shouldn't have approved any of these other contingencies until we knew that we had the money in the budget to do them. And obviously we didn't have the money in the budget to do them if we're coming back to things that aren't even that are more required, right? Because that means we actually went over more because that money paid for some of them that now aren't on here. I don't understand the rushed. I'm I'm having trouble understanding why the estimate was rushed because we didn't we didn't vote on it initially because it was rushed and that gave it a whole another year to get I think you said the assessment of the building was rushed and we purchased it before really understanding potentially what some of the issues with the building were. But I guess your point is Yeah. But then we had a year to look at it. We purchased it and we was going to go to town meeting to get the money to renovate it and the sign. Yeah. Until we had bids in hand and we didn't go back to town meeting for an entire year, right? ulation seems like a basic thing to me. I guess I don't understand why that was addressed. And and I remember at that point when we came back to the town, we said pretty much unanimously said, "Wait a minute, 11 months have gone by and now we're again rushed getting something at the last minute. How can this be?" And I absolutely understand. Let's be blameless, but let's also fix because this keeps happening. I mean, we don't we don't seem to be learning our our lessons. I can't get a I can't get my arms around uh Jerry to you to to your point. Uh I can't get my arms around the urgency. Uh because that was one of the questions that that I had for the for the team which included uh uh some of the people that have been moving around since minute one and actually some some staff members that that that have been here. what is the what was the urgency? And it

was just, you know, apparently because it was dormant for a while and it's it was it was $ three and a half million dollars to purchase it and and let's go. And it was a it was a matter of uh uh because it it's that too long. And I don't I don't I'm not I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm that's how I'm curious. Is there like I would have assumed that the there was some policy in terms of the process of bidding and then you know going out going out to bid and then actually doing the construction that if you run out of money you have to tell somebody now before before town before town before the May before the May town meeting bids were in hand. Yeah. So in order for you to evaluate or assess what the cost of your renovations are going to be, there was basically three months where it should have been 9 to 12. 3 months deadline to do this because we want to go in May. Am I there was a year? It was a year, but the but the but the cost estimate didn't didn't start because the OPM and everyone was when was not on on contract until December 30th of 23. So then this is all our fault. But then how can you get a bid if it's not a real number? They should say this isn't I can't give you a real number. I I don't Well, I mean they gave the number that they gave the best number that they could with the time that they had. It could have been more for example the facade the siding it was completely it it was rotted so and that's that's the example that I use today I mean this morning and that and you know for example so you would have been able to

someone would have been able to find the fact that the siding was completely rotted. Well, yes. I mean, it would have it would have had more of a detail evaluation of the building systems, the structural integrity, uh, the electrical, everything. And may So, it was really just a the time was against everybody. But, but but, but I'm but but, but I mean, and that's fine. I I get it. Like, if this had all been, oh, shoot, we missed this, we missed that. I'm like, yeah, that happens. It's it's that that's what the contingency is for. And in some cases, you totally miss things and it's way more expensive. But I'm saying at some point the the the project team said, "Okay, we're going to spend $284,000 of change orders that didn't weren't required as part of the building commissioner saying you have to do this or the building's falling down that they they must have known that it was going over budget." And my question is like who like don't we need to know when the budget is done and the contingency's gone? Like, is there no policy that says after you spend all the contingency money and there's nothing left, you have to tell somebody that we're out of money and we're going to need to borrow more? Like, I'm I'm I'm I'm legitimately like I'm kind of flabbergasted that with all the procurement process that doesn't exist. Does PNBC come in and give you guys updates? We have not I don't think I've responsible maybe once since I've been on the board we've spoken to them. So, I guess you know who who is I guess I I want to know who's empowered to say, "Hold on, we're going over budget here." Wouldn't Wouldn't you think that there would even PMTC doesn't come to your meetings, wouldn't you think that there would be monthly or quarterly reports of here's here we are, here's how much we spent, here's what's left in the contingency, here's what we see coming. Because because you don't want to find

out when you're done. You want to find out when you're 90% done. Maybe those maybe those got sent to me and I never read them. It's possible. But but it can't just be on one person because one person can make a mistake. I'm with you. I'm fabulous. I think it step in if I'm if I'm misinterpreting what happened, but I think the working theory was that they were within budget because they had enough money within the contingencies to cover everything based on the assumption that the HVAC unit and the insulation could wait. And now upon further review the idea is no we cannot wait. So arguably they weren't over budget. I see. Is that I I I think that's sort of Madam Chair. I think that's fair when you talk when you when you when when you talk contingency in the in the plural sense and uh and I believe it it it was expressed of that culmination of the balances from five or six different capital that that have been sitting there. We can scoop these up and use these uh for for what is what could I shouldn't have shown it anyway. They shouldn't have been able those shouldn't have been in that project period or without more approvals. Right. I understand we can do it, but that's basically over adding to a budget, okay, on the slide, right? The town approved 3.4 million and then we're saying, but we have other money sitting in another piggy bank that we could have allocated for something else, right? Going to the seat cushions. That that that can't be our our our go-to plan, right? And I'm also like I'm worried that we're like throwing spears at people. I don't want to throw spears at people. Like look, like everyone's going to be defensive about this because it's a lot of money and I get it. I really

mostly want to make sure this doesn't happen again. And if we need to find some process or to find a process that make sure that we don't dip into piggy banks that don't aren't part of the budget unless there's specific explicit approval from FinCom or from the select board or from the town administrator. I'm fine with that. Like whatever we need to do, but this is this is kind of embarrassing. I think I think you're right. I mean it's two separate issues to it. We have to deal with what we have in front of us. Number one. Number two, we need to make sure that the process moving forward is fixed. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah. But that's the thing we never do. I mean I mean come on. I was first on like 25 years ago and we had the same kind of conversation and we we are so good at not blaming people and that's awesome. And then we never fix the process. And I think the town is getting tired of us not fixing the process. Well, I think it's a in my opinion, the the the the approach I've taken in my in my in my personal life and professional life is when you're dealing with a you I don't know what's behind that wall. We don't have X-ray eyes. So, as far as I'm concerned, if we're going to buy if we're going to buy a building, it's automatically we've gotten it automatically right down to the studs and we look at everything from from A to Z. And that's and some people say, "Oh, that's overkill. That's overkill." But in my experience, that wouldn't be that wouldn't be overkill. And I think that is a is a wise exercise to be able to do. I mean, unless you have the construction next door was ideal, was phenomenal. It was I I would agree with you, but that's not what blew out this budget. I mean, if you just look at these light items, the contingencies by

code. There was $261,000 of owner change and $191,000 of scope change. That's what blew out the budget. Not the fact that we didn't take it back. Not that you didn't have enough time. No, but I I I the the lighting was a question that I had in in regards to that. I mean, you you're walking you're walking through the building, you can tell when you're when you're going to write the specs and when you're looking to to to upgrade or rehabilitate it, well, this lighting is not efficient, but and then it just it and so it but they were just going to but the the thought the thought process was okay, we will replace that at a future date. will be able to identify the whether it be whether they start with the lowhanging fruit or whether they they tackle the the more the more harder things and just will make replacements as part of the facilities budget going forward. Right. But that would have meant that these didn't come now. And I understand the decision was made, oh it's going to be so much cheaper to do it now. The walls are open, the contractor's here, right? Like it makes sense to do it now. That's fine. But then they added $190,000 to the budget without asking or someone add $190,000 without understanding the total impact of it. I mean, you know, I um so anyway, I guess, you know, we should talk about how we're going to deal with this now. Like can we just propose that on any large project the PNBC gives the seme updates on the budget? Yeah. Well, what was the the whole lead in about it being rushed though? Is that what the contractor is saying? why the numbers aren't coming in right or that's what um BNBC is saying as this is this is the conversation from OPM this this

morning with Vertex our owners project manager who basically works for us and um it was uh it was it clearly was expressed to to the parties to be that uh the the amount of time that that is given for the architect to write the specification and identify the areas of of improvement is there's got to be there's it's not enough time. We were under the impression it been going on for a year. So I guess if they wasn't enough time, why wouldn't that have been in the proposal? We're giving you these numbers, but we haven't had time to really evaluate it. So it was I mean but yeah, I mean those caveats were in there is my understanding. Well, there was just regular contingencies. I mean, they didn't say we need more time to evaluate this to give you a number because I mean, we waited the first time because we didn't feel like we had a vetted number. And the way I understand it, those those areas of concern were expressed to the client. That's all I can that's all I And the client didn't listen. Sounds like correct. Whatever the process is, we need to fix it before shake a lane comes down the line. Yeah. I want to hear what you your response to what I see. Oh, I just having listened into some of these PMBC meetings, right? Um, yes, PNBC could send us a monthly report and we do need some sort of report. I think we need to take the time to make sure it is a report that we will understand and be able to act on. If if they give us the report that they walk through, I can guarantee you at least I we won't have we won't be able to

understand where we actually are. Um so we're going to have to because it's so far in the weeds. Yeah. you know, it's we've got this much done and we've got this much, you know, that's outstanding in this and we've got this much outstanding in that and we've got these that are in this part of the process and that that's part in that part of the process. And I'm sitting here going, "Well, what's the real number?" And they're going, "That is the real number." I I mean, I think a report that said here's here's what's happening and how we think it's going to impact the final cost is something they clearly could figure out. They can. I think I'm just saying we need to be really deliberate about what we want to know and make sure that we're expressing it clearly. Right. I I I I mean it's not the same, but I did a pretty, you know, a six figure renovation on my house and we got, you know, a bunch of years back and got a bunch of the way through it and, you know, they said, you know, hey, you could have a bigger bay window here. And I'm okay. And how's that going to affect the the cost? And said, it'll be this much. And I said no thank you know I don't know yeah which in isolation is is clear and able and you can understand it but against you know you know half a dozen vendors at a minimum and there contractors and their bills and their change orders each coming in separately and they're out I'm just saying we just need to be really thoughtful that's all right and I think uh as we go forward that really clearly defined roles and responsibilities um are really important and there you know it's unfortunate that you know that Ryan isn't here to because he was sort of in the middle of all

this. Um, so I just think, you know, if if you're going to think about the process and clear roles and responsibilities, I know that having been through several projects with the P PMPC, I mean, they feel that they receive a specific charge from the administration/ select board and that's what they do. Yeah. Um and you know that they try to stay within those four you know the the four corners of of the charge. Um these change orders I I may be wrong but I don't believe PNBC approves the change orders. I think that comes from the administration whoever that is. And then once they get that nod then they try to manage that that has been added to the team is always so I think um you know just a clear understanding of the roles and responsibilities and then whatever reporting you you want you you should be able to define and receive. I mean I I I think that's should be a given certainly in any large project. So just looking at this sheet there's three budget items that your entire contingency were approved in December right between the bathroom, the security and the lighting. They took up the entire contingency and it was improved in December. So, we should have known back five months ago that we were over budget and we had no contingencies left and anything after that would had to be out, right? You got no money left.

Well, if what what but okay, so we're hearing about the 15 ton unit now, which might be on its last legs or it might not. And we're hearing about insulation now. Would would we have heard of of those two items quote five months ago? I don't know whether the OPM or anybody knew of that before Eric started nosing around and trying to figure things out. But but but like common sense for me dictates you don't spend your contingency on nice to haves. you spend your contingency on things that you have to do in order to get the building habitable. And and I think if if you know I would have argued, can we please not do the lighting and the wiring because we don't know what we're going to find in the last 3 months of the project. That that's fair. Um you know, maybe I wouldn't have said that. Maybe I'm too much of a chicken, but I hope I would have said it. And that that I think that's the kind of thing that I I don't know that I would hope that someone is making those calls. Well, what you're saying is that what I'm hearing you saying is that the select board as a member of the select board, you want to be more involved rather than less involved, you know, is it is it no like nos's office that's no I I don't comes together or again what are the roles and responsibilities I don't think that I want to be more involved but I want someone to I want somebody to make that call. Fair enough. And it feels like nobody made that call and and and maybe it's me secondguessing people who know what they're doing. And it could be that

this this overrun is actually going to save us money in the long run. I don't know. But I'd love to see an action item come out of this meeting because if if we don't have an action item, we'll be doing this again next year. So I would say Jim or the select board I mean we're can't really be us it can't really be fin but I think select word you need an action item even if it's just to study and put it on a future agenda we have to do something Brian I'm sorry for the chair and I I don't think anyone anyone dis disagrees with that and I think this is a pretty tough lesson learned across the board even though and I think what you bring up something very valid that history's repeating itself. Okay. But Fred, you hit upon um a really uh a really good point. Uh one of the one of the best investments we've made is a facilities manager and he has done a great job identifying areas that people or vendors have said, "Yep, not a problem." And he no, that's that is a problem and it's XYZ. So I think um you know I I think we're we're growing up in many ways. Fair enough that uh um and uh from from hard lessons and we've got uh we've got a strong professional on on board and and uh and I'm and I'm I I absolutely agree with with the approach of you just you got to look behind every wall. I'm sorry. you it's got to go down to the stud and that's if we're going to buy a building or or renovate any particular building. That's just that would be that would be my action. I don't think that's the problem. I think we need to make sure we have better financial oversight of these projects as they're going on. I mean I I know when we were building the library I got these reports all the time

and you know and we made sure we weren't spending our contingencies along the way. We were saving that for anything nice we wanted to add in at the end. Yeah. Right. And th this project didn't follow that those rules, right? These contingencies were approved long before long ago when they shouldn't have been approved until they knew they had the money for the project. Yeah, I don't I I I don't disagree. I can and and I can just I can just imagine the position that they were in. Every time they turned around, there was something else every single that was unforeseen. Something that was unforeseen. And I'm not I'm not defending anybody. I completely agree with you, Mr. Armbaka. Um and uh and I know that there is a matter of fact and they we're comparing it to the the center on shadow construction and the money that's going to be turned back on that. Uh and another thing is um this and and also another area that uh what is uh CM at risk. So when you have a CM at risk instead of design build Yeah. That is a huge difference. And the library was was CM at risk. This wasn't more than 10 million. That's why it was a design bill. It's not eligible for CM at risk. So, which makes it all the more difficult uh to be able to to bring that across the finish line uh with basically a it's a you know, you're constantly figuring there's something else. Now, there's something else. Now, there's something else. I think we need someone on these teams that has a financial background who's willing to stand up and say no. So I would suggest that we make this one of our goals for the year is to come up with a set of select board expectations on capital projects. Yeah, that's a good idea. Something that lives, you know, part of part of the problem is all the churn, right? And I'm sitting here

going, I wasn't here five years ago. You know, Jim wasn't here. you know, most of us weren't um in our current positions when all these things were being done. So, we need a document that lives beyond our memories, right? Which is all we're all we've got right now. Can um can you speak to line 64? What that is delays? Try 64 equitable adjustment for time delays. Um so yes the there was there there were the contractor had had certain amount of days to get the to get the project completed per contract and there were uh there were uh there were delays that was not a fault of the contractor. There were other things as a result of change orders in which which extended them beyond that and that was the final negotiating figure I believe from a from a higher from 65,000 and it was uh negotiated to down to 40,000. Okay. But you don't know specifically what what what caused what caused the delays. Yeah. You're saying there were change orders, right? I mean bec there were a number of different as a result of of of the change orders uh and there was also work that the contractor did proono in which of of particular issues uh I can't speak specific to any specifics right now but that that conversation has been done has been expressed to me that uh so as as a result uh with the the OPM um and there were members of of the team that sat with the contractor and they came away with that

number. I probably didn't answer your question, Jerry. I I'm sure you answered it the best that you can. I'm just not I was looking for, I guess. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I can't point I can't say, oh, because of number 17, 28, 32. I I I don't have that. Yeah, I guess I was looking for like, you know, the pipes were frozen. and they couldn't get into the building for 3 weeks or something like you know that is unforeseeable because they're looking for us to pay them for unforeseeable charges. So um right if it was for a change order because of something that they didn't see I just don't think we should penalize for that. So the other 63 items that were on the list above that number, right? So given that that we need to look at the process separately, are we all in agreement that we need to do the installation and we need to do this assessment and fix the HVAC before people move in? Yeah, I believe we do. Well, HVAC can't be done before they move in, but the insulation correct because but the mechanical evaluation uh assessment can can be done while people are in there, but and the insulation can be done like I had expressed on a Friday, but people moved in. My understanding is that we need to dismantle that 15 ton unit and bring it down through the building because it can't go through the roof anymore. Correct. So, that's going to cause disruption in that second floor. Yep. And um and in speaking with uh the the superintendent today, as something such as the uh the installation uh on a Friday, you know, he'll have his staff work remotely. So, if that's the case, he's got the the uh the superintendent can uh he and his team can work remotely for a specified amount of time. It's

parks and wreck that'll be the tricky part, right? Potentially. potentially. So, do we need to go out to bid for these items again or is this under the same project? We're going to treat them separately. Separately. Yes, sir. That would be my recommendation to everybody. So, it's gonna absolutely we're going to get the the mechanical uh assessment done and the insulation uh was being through the green communities and there was a contractor down there today that was looking at it uh for for a price. Um as a matter of fact, through green communities through Diane Dickinson uh of us trying to shutter parts of this building. They had they they've been walking around uh last week uh through the building and and figuring out areas how we can shutter it to to save money on uh on utilities here in this building. Uh and uh but there were problems with the with the systems. So is the plan still to move into this building in June? June, July. Yes. Yep. I think Eric felt confident he could keep the cooling. Yes. through the summer, right? Yeah. So, is is the 15 ton unit definitely coming out or is that still being evaluated? Well, let's everything that what system would work best in the building is going to be evaluated and not necessarily evaluate the existing thing, but really look at what works. Do we go hybrid? Do we go completely electric? What would be the best system for that? But might that be the existing system or is that definitely coming out? Okay, that won't be the existing system. So does that existing system come out immediately before people move in? No. So no, because it be if that it's still it's still running. It's it's still feasible at this point. It's like I had

I had explained earlier, it's not a matter of whether it's going to fail. It's a matter of when. And they were already passed all the units that are remaining there. of well beyond their life expectancy. So whether it's it fails in next March or April or this November, it I mean the the system replacement has to and people will be in the offices will be will would be my concern is is we're saying that we rush the process to begin with. we have a chance to just keep everybody where they are in 8 right now and not rush the process one more time and then six months from now saying why did we let people run in walk go into this building right I don't I I do not disagree with with that and it's and I know that there was a lot of money that has already been identified within this project for moving for uh considering there's I said the exact same thing what what's the rush I mean stay through September and and Who who's who's in the school department in the rush to go over? Um, where's Pac and Rick? They probably both are. They probably both are. And uh um it would be it' be something that uh it's they're in they're, you know, a new location. They've got nice new things, new furniture, things of that nature. So, does it make sense to at least go out to bid, get the bids, look at the process and and then decide whether people can move in there or not. I I'm hand 100% I'm I'm the the main priority is to identify uh identify the um uh the installation and then the mechanical person and then uh the systems continue to work and and sit down with box of wreck in the school in the school administration and and say can can we turn around the do do we have

to pay the 200 and then get reimbursement for the 80 from the green communities? I don't know that those details yet, Mr. Chairman. Okay. I'll I'll find that out. Ju just another question. Trying to anticipate. So, we're going to do the full mechanical inventory and I can imagine someone saying y'all didn't do that already. Um, and that is correct. The answer is that is correct. Okay. I mean, I agree with you. I mean, it doesn't doesn't sit well with the town. One would assume that after we do the full mechanical inventory, there's going to be a laundry list, a shopping list of things we then have to buy or fix or install. Right. That's related to a new system going in. Yeah. That's the 300. Yeah. But I I guess I'm just I've always been taught that when you have to go back to ask for more money or more time, do it once. And we're now going to go have to come up with some money for what we see and then maybe come up with more different money and time after the mechanical inventories. Is that right? No. uh because the focus is are the two areas of the installation and and getting the mechanicals in there and that's it. Okay, that's all that's on unless I get direction differently from the select board. That's all that's on. So, let's agenda take those separately for the moment. We say we're doing the installation now. We have to do it before anyone moves in, right? Yes, that is ideal. Now, the mechanical we think we can limp along until we don't know. Could be September, could be July. We don't know. So my understanding when we bought the building and this whole process started

as they did an inventory of the mechanical systems to say which HVAC systems were going to last. That's one of the things I asked when they started was to replace the H which HVAC systems are going to make it and which ones do we need to replace right away. And I thought they replaced some of them already. They they they did as part of this project. There were some units that were replaced, right? There were two very large units. One of which was empty, took off the cover. The other one is the current 15 ton one. Mhm. So it is uh that's basically what is what's going to be um continuing within the uh heating and cooling the building is that 15 ton plus the other units that are there that were not removed and not replaced and I don't know how many of those were I know I think there was potentially four or five replaced and the rest were so so the gist of my question is, can we wait and what confidence level do we have on waiting until next May's budget to come up with the $300,000 to replace that unit when we can do it as a normal capital item? We won't know until we do this $50,000 maintenance mechanical assessment. It's I think that's a that can answer a lot of the questions that you would all have and myself and get a better understanding of a confidence level whether there is confidence there or there is there isn't. What move in dates are they working with currently. I want to say like July 8th or something like that maybe even I think there was something sooner but there's a there's a punch list of 166 things Eric is doing. So he's doing them all himself. Ian George.

Yeah. What about the rest of the What about the rest of these change orders? What about all the the c the other $400,000? So that's not included in the you know the 300 grand for the um HVAC and the 200 grand for the for the um insulation, right? Like so so so there there's 600,000 650 or whatever year, right? Yep. this does or doesn't include the $300,000 for the for the HVAC unit. Well, it's if you see on line 47, it's got the HVAC unit replacement for 307,000. Okay. Okay. So, then if you take that that's not in that's not calculated finally approved. Okay. So, but so, right. So, what I'm getting at is there's still some numb $100,000 hundreds of thousands of dollars on the bottom line here that have been approved which we don't have money for or we do have money for where we where we and the green the green area on page two. Yeah, that is that those are those are pending amounts which that are still that's still being vetted with the OPM the architect and the contractor that that will then go to PBC um for review and the remaining funds what is there it's covered this is covered so everything that has been approved is covered yes sir and how or is pending yes but is covered by the capital projects that we pulled money out of or and the original contingency okay all Got it. Okay. So, the green things are the ones that were that is the green things and the HVAC unit are the things that are not covered at this point. And no, the green things are covered. Things are covered. So, the the two things that are not covered, the insulation and the HBAC. Okay. Got it. Thank you. Yes, sir. And do we have a sense of when the inventory could be completed?

Oh, you mean the assessment? I'm sorry. assessments. Um yeah no uh we do not because I had uh just provided um the the my recommendation to the team from the meeting this morning the two parallel two two parallel tracks and uh depending upon what was going to come out of this meeting I was then that's going to be the first thing I would do tomorrow morning with Eric and who does the assessment there would be a professional um engineer that would uh I believe it's an engineer or mechanical engineer that would uh uh that's that has um you know energy in terms of what what would be the best uh system and does that have to go out to bid? Yep. Yes. A couple months I' I'd give it till August September just I would push it out and hopefully deliver sooner. So, so we it would be very tough to before that was completed. Sorry. Sorry. It would be it would be it would be tough to have that completed before the Sorry. Exactly. Yeah. Even if we even if they decided to wait till fall, it's not going to help much is what I'm hearing. Yeah. Will will that assessment just focus on the most effective method of moving forward or will it also identify any issues that we still don't know about in the building? It this will be focused heat and air conditioning HVAC. So that anything that's related to that and anything that would that's that's recommended to invest in that building will be will be called up. Anything beyond that a plumbing issue? Sure. Sure. But we we we hopefully there will

be no surprises after this assessment on the HVAC front. We we hope fingers crossed. Right. Right. it the the moving is what we my field call a one-way door once we've moved you know we're we're done so um I think I think some of the concern is we're yes at track but we're confident that we can move and move with it yeah I I'm I'm this this next phase in the project um I'm I'm I'm very very comfortable and I'm confident in the team um that we have that we'll be able to we'll have a clear path presented to all of you. Uh it it will probably in all likelihood it's not going to be an an inexpensive path but it will be efficient and thorough and done in a in a timely manner with not being rushed and not dragging enough. I would like confirmation that that 15 ton unit or whatever we're doing with it can be done while the building is occupied or how many days we have to shut down the building to get rid of that. Fair enough. Understood. Yes, sir. Or that we just leave it there. Are they down and out or are they blow or are they I thought they were taking it through the through an exterior wall. No, no, they're going to dismantle it and then bring it uh there's uh we talked about that this morning. Uh, we don't want to open anything up in the roof. Nothing. Okay. I thought it was coming out of a wall though. No, it's going down and out. Down and out. Yeah. So, I don't see how I mean, we won't have a functioning elevator for all intents and purposes. Well, for the folks that are there trying to work. Well, but that would Well, let's see what our options are.

Yeah, just saying. Thank you. through a window on the second floor. I was thinking the exact same thing. Have we also confirmed that there's insulation in the walls while we're at this? There isn't. There is none. The envelope, the entire envelope of the building has to be insulated. So, we're insulating the walls at the same time we're doing the ceiling or we're correct. Everything's being done at the same time, but not the auditorium, right? Or are we going to do the auditorium, too? Everything's got everything is going to be that that's part of a back portion. We want to We want to include that. We're gonna include that. So Steve, where do we get the money? Before we get to that, I'd like to see two numbers. What does it cost to just swap out the 15 ton units? 15 of design the most wonderful system in the world. And what does that cost? As long as we say, well, how long will the 15 ton unit run? And what it'll what will it cost to run for the next 20 years of its lifespan? Because just 25 years old, there's no 20 year lies. No, no. I'm saying if we swap it out and the new one is 20 runs for 20 years, but we're paying $100,000 a year to run it. Yeah. I think what I thought the idea was get rid of the 15 ton unit and bring in 35. Yeah, that's what I remember hearing. which will be easier to get in and out and presumably more efficient. And more efficient. Yeah. Whatever the swap out is. Yeah. Versus, but what I heard was hybrid and this and that and something else. Um, so I'd like to know just swap them out the cheapest way you can with quality equipment. 100 grand. Well, isn't that what the mechanical assessment does,

right? Yeah. So that's what we'll find out once the assessment's done. Is there IRA money for these things too? I don't know. I I I do all all that I do know is when I when I asked whether there was green community money would apply towards the HVAC and the heating system also the insulation and the only it's only eligible if the whole building is electric. Well, I know there's IRA money if I insulate my house. So, I'm wondering if there's Ira money if we insulate that building. Well, through green communities. No, no, but there's that. Yeah, we can still get IRA money. They don't know about green communities money. We're getting the IRA money for the solar panels even though the state part of it. There's IRA money. IRA. Inflation reduction act. Okay. Thank you. That's the, you know, you get the 30% credit on your taxes for energy improvements and solar panels and things like that. the town gets something similar. We should be getting something similar for the solar panels if someone files the proper paperwork. Okay. And the same I don't know if there might be high money for hybrids on that too. It's an energy improvement. You might be able to get it as long as we do it quickly before it goes away. Yeah, let's do it quick. Well, quickly mean I think before the end of the year probably. You can't probably change it in the middle of the next year. Be very hard to do. So 50,000 for the assessment and 120,000 for the installation. We just happen to have $171,000 in our reserve fund. However, that needs to be spent before the end of this fiscal year, which we're probably not going to be ready to do if we have to go to bid.

And and Steve, remember please that the our reserve fund we've already promised I think 65,000 to um Council on Aging for the position that they Oh, okay. That's okay. Okay. I just Yeah, good thought. Yeah. um it would be 30 something thousand you know and person the installation I believe that that company is on a state bid list because that is through green communities the contractor so that's a matter of identifying the funding source and and then working that out and getting the installation done scheduling that so I I can't imagine that that cannot at least it be encumbered between now and June 30th um and maybe spent by the middle by July 15th, a check cut or something. But um but but I'll have to look into the um assessment of the mechanicals and I will let everyone know. May want to check with Michelle if we can apply if we can take the money out of the reserve fund and apply it to the project. Okay. Like the Union Hill project. That way it can roll into the next year. treated as a separate standalone thing, we may not be able to roll with. But check with Michelle cuz I'm not certain. Okay. Okay. Okay. But know that there's that time constraint on Yeah. these funds. So, and and maybe I misheard Jim. I thought I heard you say that schools was kicking in towards the assessment. So, 50,000 after there. So the original

thought with this 470 was our reserve fund and school choice funds to cover the entire thing. And the school the chair of the Karen and I met with the chair of the school committee and he agreed to fund X amount of dollars that would help us fund this. I haven't heard officially from the school committee yet whether looking at Genie down here. Um, and what's X? Uh, 300. Okay, we're looking at every damn seat cushion. Hope we don't find any needs to come in exactly to 470 right here. What? So, so that money that money is available into next year because it's coming out their school choice. So, they can spend it at any point in time. It's this 170 from my reserve fund that has the time constraint to it. That money from school choice does that school committee has the authority to spend school choice? Right. But but wasn't some of their wasn't schools also kicking in some of their school choice money to defer some of the shaker projects or is that a different bucket? you know, they were handling some of the projects from their capital plan through school choice funds and we were putting that money that we would have spent into the school stabilization. Okay. Okay. Just just just that's still the plan and our discussion with with Justin and the chair of the school committee was this is outside of that and we don't know whether we can repay the school department for these funds. That's the part. He was fine. He was Yeah. Yeah.

It's He stressed he was only We always have what we call the seed cushion money. And we've just gone after it and gone after it and gone after it. And there's we're getting pretty darn close to a time when we when there's nothing. But got to heat the building. So the work has to be done. If it goes to town meeting in November with the school building there also there's no way the town says it's okay to this not after no I agree. I think I think [Music] okay so it was it was very good that the I thought that the schools bound if they vote to do so stood up then oh I think it's fabulous I think I mean this is great some dollars this this is more cooperation than I can recall us almost ever having amongst the three boards just as as Justin said and correctly this is you know it's the town's money it's it's a philosophy now than it used to be. Absolutely. No, I'm digging it. He understands and just know that at some point in time if they're sure they will come back to the town and say we're good. We have to be ready for that. That's Yeah, absolutely. But the alternative is to go back to town meeting in November. you know, spend what we can out of the reserve fund and the difference for the HVAC system is tap to tap meeting. That's the alternative. Okay. If that system

fails before the money is allocated and it's replaced, then people who once they moved in, they couldn't remain there. it controls too much of the building. Um, without with complete understanding of it, I I I would I I I don't I don't think so. Okay. So, and I spared Eric coming tonight, but we're going to want But but if that were to happen, that's why we have the general stabilization funds for which are to cover emergencies exactly like that. Correct. But you can't wait till you can't get at that until you go to town meeting. So my understand thought the difference between the heating and the cooling situation is that he thinks he can locate and provide replacement parts for the cooling part. Okay. But the heat is where he's not sure. He's going to be he would be able to source something if it gets broken because I think those units take a while to get to once you make the decision to do that. I think the only watch out the town traditionally does year end transfers and won't have any money for year end transfers which it's okay but um you there may be some chewing up in the fall if there are issues where we normally would handle it out of the reserve fund. So just just be aware of that that well the the fall town meeting transfers that's the next fiscal year. So any true up if we run our reserve

fund to zero which it looks like we may be doing. That's all I'm saying is for if they have true ups they need to do they need to find you within other budgets. So just one department is short the other department kicks it over to right. So, just watch out for you and your finance team. If we do this, there is not a cookie jar to do the traditional true-ups. You're going to have to take care of it, right? The town contingency is empty. Exactly. It's just a heads up. Robin, Kim, uh Michelle and I, we had that conversation because tonight we have we've got the exercise of the transfers on for tonight and we know that uh we don't have the complete numbers, but we know there's no reliance on anything outside of just within the within our own budget. Yes, sir. It's okay. If I can just have one clarification, Madam Chair. Sure. Um Mr. Vice Chairman, you wanted two numbers. There's the cost to swap out the 15 ton unit and what's the second one then whatever the this magnification then the then the assessment then okay all right that's all thank you thank you ready to move on they have to make a motion for what well we would wait for a recommendation from the select board to request a reserve fund transfer and then We would vote the reserve fund transfer. So recommended. Okay. It's unanimous. All those in favor? We recommend. We recommend. You want to call Chuck and Gary? [Music] Yes. So the question in front of the finance committee, do we want to send

$170,000 120,000 for installation and 50,000 for the assessment to the Indian Hill project in that? So we Second by Fred. All in favor? I We're officially broke. So we don't have to meet the least enthusiastic I've ever heard in my five years on the board. All right. So if if we can't roll it out, carry this over, then we're going to have to figure something out. Figure something out fiscal year. Got that right here. No, no, we'll figure out for this fiscal year. Okay. Yeah. No, because that will be uh so so technically should this request be to put the money into the the uh 34 King Street project. I don't know if we can. Yes. Okay. I want to handcuff ourselves if we can't. Okay. since the the the project officially closed last week, right, Jim? Um, did they do the signoffs last? I don't know what Eric said. The sign though. Oh. Oh, for the occupancy. Yeah, that that should happen this week. The CEO. Uh, it's a nice sign out front. I like the sign. You guys see the sign? It's nice. Yeah. There's no plaque in in the building. They cut that. smartness.

[Applause] The only other item that I had for the finance committee was just to let everybody know what already knows this, but there'll be meeting next two weeks. two weeks on on June 9th between the select board finance committee, school committee, and the Shaker Lane building committee to discuss the new costs that are coming in this week. So, we'll have that meeting on Monday and then there is an open house at at Shaker Lane on the 11th, Wednesday the 11th starting at 6:30 with a tour and then question and answers I think starting around 7:15. So, we hope to see good attendance from the public at that is that 9th our regular select board meeting. Yeah. Yes. Um, what about having a booth at third Thursday? Informational booth. I don't know. They get a pretty good crowd. Mhm. Should discuss that with Yeah. The outreach committee Michelle Kane. Okay. And that's all I had. Thank you. Done to my favor motion. There's a second. All in favor? I thank you.

Are you ready to talk about town boundary markers? Think so. So, I I requested this one. So, um if everyone recalls a couple months ago, uh some members of the Aken select board reached out to us that they were going to go and find the uh mark of the grant markers, separate Aken and Littleton and go and mark them and invited us to come along. Um, I responded. I believe we're going to walk them on Friday afternoon. Um, if we can find them. I believe there's four of them. They're not I don't know that they've located all of them or not. Um, um, but in this process, I was talking to our town clerk who says that these, you know, by state law, they're supposed to be marked every 5 years. Um, I don't know, um, when the last time any of them were marked. Um, so unless there's objections, I was going to reach out to the other surrounding towns and start organizing something to go and mark our other boundaries from some of them um from the town clerk. I don't know that they've been marked since the 30s. Um, so it might be a fun experiment. If nothing else, it's often a good walk in the woods. So, um, I will, unless there's objections, I'm going to reach out to the other boards. um and let people know when those are scheduled and after walking in with actin I'll probably know what the process is so I'll know how to go and mark them. I think we just paint a L on one side with a date but you have to do it in a nice weather where the paint will actually dry properly. So I have the folder from Diane where all of the markers are supposed to be. Fascinating. And she's entrusted. She She stressed

that this morning how she entrusted you with that. I know. So I move that the board vote to appoint Mark Robbacher and a designate to contact surrounding towns to set a date to paint boundary markers in accordance with Mass General Law Chapter 42 section 2. It shall be completed every 5 years thereafter by two select board members of the town or by two substitutes designated by select board in writing to the other town with which they are working. paint or other suitable marking materials may be used. Second. We don't have to mark We don't have to do the designate tonight. The second person tonight. I think we'll just do the I think we can just designate him at the at the time we're actually going to mark. Okay. So, you're just reaching out now? I'm just going to reach out now. I will tell you that I believe Andy Kern's coming with me to walk the Okay. And possibly Linda Stein. Okay. Okay. So, all those in favor? I I I vote to approve route for the August 17th, 2025 tour to cure bicycle fundraising event. This is uh just really just a matter of traveling through the uh through the community. Uh it's not hosted by by Littleton or anything like that. It's it's it's it's been done in the past and uh uh the chief and uh both chiefs are are okay with it. Okay. Any questions? Nope. We'll take them. Done it before. Move the select forward vote to approve the request of the American Diabetes Association to use Town Roads for the tour to cure on Sunday, August 17th, 2025. Second. Moved by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I. Thank you. Um I think we'll table, review, discuss, and assign select board leaison to town boards and committees. We'll hold that over until next meeting. since Gary and Chuck aren't here. So that would be just give them all the

assignments. We could that would that's traditional. Um so failing that we can move on to approving fiscal year 2025 transfers. Right. This is um this is a housekeeping thing. We do this every year in preparation for we won't you'll do on your July um 14th meeting because everything has to be done by July 15th and uh uh you will get the the final numbers and transfers will be requested at the at the 14th meeting. So everything is closed up. I'll take a motion. Move the select forward vote to authorize the town accountant to transfer any amount from a departmental or other appropriation to any other appropriation to address any deficits when the within the town of Littleton fiscal year 2025 operating budget. Second. Moved by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I. Next we have review and vote on proposed select board July through December schedule and October 28th special town meeting schedule. Did anybody get a chance to take a look at that and see if um I did you have any questions or concerns? Good with me like good with my schedule. I missed the July 14th meeting, but I'm fine otherwise. Unacceptable. You're fired. You'll change your you'll change your plans. You will attend. All right. I'll take a motion. to let's see approve move that the select board vote to schedule regular meetings for the remainder of 2025 as reflected in the attached schedule and move the select board vote to approve the October 28th 2025 special town meeting schedule as reflected in the attached schedule. Second move by Mark seconded by Matthew. All those in favor I

I. And next we have an application to use the common by Janine Wood for a rally on June 14th, 2025. Not to yell at Would you care to come to the podium and that way the lovely tell us all about it? Our viewing audience can hear and see you. Um it it will be easier to answer questions, I guess. Do you do you just want a a summary of what will happen? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, um, beginning on June 14th, we plan to arrive at the common name and address. Oh, sorry. Hi, I'm Janine Wood. I live at 12 Christina Street. Um, on July on June 14th, we plan to arrive at the common around 9:30 and set up. Um, I have I have a possible um um Yes. from Kelly's Music School, which is a town um treasure. And um people from there have offered to come and set up their sound system that they'll use a little bit of music for the event and also we'll be able to have um a speaker, a speaking system, a sound system for our speakers. Um the plan is that the rally will begin around 10:00. people arriving with signs, um, music, happiness, a little bit of dancing. Uh, around 10:15, 10:20, we have some speakers that have offered to speak. I have tentative yeses from Mara Dolan, Representative Margaret Scarsdale, um, and some, um, music. We hope to have um maybe a food truck come park on the site and so that we have music and food and people will um hold signs and be

supportive of each other until about 1:00 when I have some um superersiz garbage bags to hand out so that we go through the whole common and leave the common exactly as we found it at 9:30. And that's the plan. Um, were the um, food trucks part of the application or is that would that be a a change? I believe I mentioned it on the application, but I'm not going to swear to it. Okay. Um, I also had no yeses at the time and I have a tentative at this point. So, it's not it's not something that I have um actually written in stone at this point. This is me going, "Hey, that would be fun." Fair. If if Chief Bernard has no issues with the food trucks, I don't see it in this application. If he has no issues with it, I think that's absolutely fine to go forward with it subject to his approval. I did bring it up with him when I talked to him. Okay, then. And and it's just a matter of them parking on Steven Street in one of the parking spaces. I will check with the town clerk cuz I think there are limited places where food trucks are allowed in town and I'm not positive that that's one of them. Just I would I'm fine with it if it's it's a weird regulation. I don't understand it at all. But I'm but I know there's are limited places. Board of Health. Uh no, the board of health would shouldn't care once the food trucks permitted. Okay. But I mean as long as if you spoke to Chief Bernard about it, then I'm sure it's fine. I mean, the companies we're talking about are known in the air, like, you know, local, a donut truck, a pizza truck. I figure, you know what, like food and music is a way for everybody just to have fun and, you know, nothing bad's going to happen if you have enough music and food. That's my thing. This is true. This is

true. I have no concerns. I have no concerns. Just Yeah. I would just say just double check and make sure that I'll ask them if we're all set with that. And um yeah, and you said until noon one when I think I put 10 to 1 there, did I? Uh it's 9 to noon in the motion. Um it just says 10:00. It says 9 to noon um in the event overview. Um let's see. 10:00 a.m. start time in the application though. So, but maybe 9 for setup. Well, yeah. So then the question is about when until when your email said 10. So I don't know if there the email from Bernard says it's 9 to 12. Yeah. But okay. But I don't think 9 to I'm also not concerned about that. I still will approve it. I Yeah, I don't I don't have anything planned from 12 to 1. I kind of had it up there as I'm gonna have there's going to be people and some music and some food. Do you really want to push them off or do you want to let them just chill out? And I don't think you have to push them off. It's just no matter what you're The music probably would have to stop effectively, right? Okay. More than the people leaving, right? Yeah. I don't you can't be encouraging them to stay, but you can't tell necessarily make force them to leave. Well, I Yeah, I I doubt people are going to want to play music past then, and I think Kelly might want his sound system back. So, you know, um if I may through the chair, um Miss Wood, did uh can you please explain to the select board about did you reserve

the STS room for something? Oh, that's for June 9th. That's that's that's June that's that's something else. I'm sorry. I apologize. I thought thought and I'm not the one who reserved that. Oh, you were not? No, I'm sorry. I I mean like I know who it is and and what they're doing and I I think I'm they've asked me to come to So I'm sorry. I got I got to I got to Too many emails flying around. I'm sorry. Lots of emails flying around, I think. Yeah, that's all. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's okay. Good. Yep. All right. We're good. As far as I'm concerned, we're good. Is there any We're good. Good. Move the select for vote to approve the use of the lower Littleton Common for a rally to raise awareness of the protection of the Constitution on June 14th from 9 to 1. I would love if you would put one. I would love. Yes. Moved by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Miss Wood, they they'll the select board will will sign this tonight. Okay. So, once we get the your insurance certificate, then we'll release this to you. So, I don't have an insurance certificate at this time because insurance certificates come from insurance policies and I'm not part of a group that is insured. Okay. So, I'm I'm not sure what you're asking me to do as far as having a C insurance certificate and and in other times I've not needed it. So, this is kind of a new requirement. Okay. Um the the way the the way the way I understand it, you need you would need proof of insurance to hold something on town on town property in the event. What kind of insurance? I don't I don't know. I'll I I'll I'll make sure it's confirmed for

you in the morning. I I appreciate that because I like this is not um it. This is me and just an individual inviting people. Okay. So, like I'm not part of an insured group. Understood. So, and so I'm not really sure where we would go with that. So, okay. I I I thought that So, you did not have this conversation earlier when you were seeking with my office. Yeah. I talked to your office and they had brought it up and I called around. That's how I know what an insur insurance certificate is because I called around the the people that had insured the garden club and they they insured the garden club, but I'm not part of an insured group. So getting a certificate, I mean like I have personal insurance, right? Um so I'm not sure where we would go, how we would do that. Okay, let's not jump to conclusions. Let's figure out, you know, let's figure out how we can how we can work together and and accomplish this. Okay. So, I'll uh I'll let I'll let uh I'll let Lisa know and then um I I'll probably have to, you know, ask we'll probably have to town council just to understand uh and just understanding your position and your capacity at this point. So, let's see how we can make it work. Awesome. Give me a call and Okay. You know, Lisa has your number. Yes. And I live right there, you know. Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your patience. Vote to approve an amendment to the intermunicipal agreement between the town of Actton and the town of Littleton for an electrical inspector. Right. This is uh an amended one of version. Uh this was uh this has not been updated for quite a while and and Ryan felt that uh

uh the this was brought to his attention uh many months ago and uh and he felt that he wanted to make sure he close the loop on this for the electrical inspector that we share with with um with Actton and Actton has has approved it. So, I was a little confused by this because the amendment looked like we were paying for everything. No, we're not. So, Littleton shall pay the inspector's stipen each fiscal year for the for its vehicles. The amount should be set by Littleton. The stipen shall it doesn't say anything about what Actton's pay. Little tin shall be bigger section 4.1 deleted its entirety replace with little tential but be responsible for paying the full amount of wages and benefits due to the inspector. So there there there are specific sections that are amended here which will have changes through town council but the the the other main language still enforcable. It shows that Actton pays uh pays an amount and Littleton pay pays an amount. I don't have the entire the entire uh agreement uh with me as that's why they have just sections 4.1 and 4.2 and 15. So, But what but what's in the packet shows that we're paying everything. Littleton shall be responsible for paying the full amount of wages and benefits due to the electrical inspector in accordance with the standard payroll practices of Littleton,

right? It's our electrical inspector, right? So it's it's just um like the nurse situation that we have with Actton. They're they're fronting it. They're paying everything. We're reimbursing them a certain amount every single every uh every quarter. And that's reflected in in that agreement. And without confirming, I I can only I can only imagine that that's the exact same situation here in this in uh for the electrical inspector because they are employed by he is employed by us. Town council reviewed this. Town council made these changes. Yes. So, I'm not particularly comfortable signing it until I see the rest of the agreement because it just says we're paying. It doesn't say what Actton's paying and what we see here, right? I trust town council did their job, but it's irresponsible for me to sign something that I don't know what the other I kind of I kind of agree like without seeing without seeing the whole what what the what is being replaced. A red line would have been great because we would have known like how it's being defined. Understood. All right. That's more than fair. So we'll bring that to the next meeting. Yes, please. Minutes. No issues from me. Mark. Nope. Move the SL board vote to approve the meeting minutes from the SLboard meeting on May 12th, 2025. Second. Moved by Mark, seconded by Matthew. All those in favor? I I motion to adjurnn. Second. Motion to adjurnn. Second. By Matthew, seconded by Mark. All those in favor? I. All right. Good night, Littleton.